The foundational principles of WC

[WC1277]

In an attempt to maybe get this forum back on track I'd like to share the 13 principles according to Fong Sifu. This covers everything applicable to WC in one way or another. Also, I'll post structural requirements broken down...

- Structure
- Adjustment
- Positioning
- Timing
- Distance
- Reaction
- Control
- Power
- Storage
- Decision
- Aggressiveness
- Guts
- The Way

Structure:

1. Cutting/Scraping
2. Equalize/Neutralize
3. Static/Dynamic
4. Active/Passive Arm Triangle
5. Active/Passive Stance
6. Set Structure/Wall and Send
7. No Planning
8. Adjust Elbow V Shape
9. Lock 3 Structures Together:
Arms - Body - Legs
10. Adjust Square Shoulder

All of the sub-principles come from these main 13....

[WingChunABQ]

Could you please elaborate more on 'storage' and 'The Way'?

[WC1277]

Could you please elaborate more on 'storage' and 'The Way'?

Joy should be able to help out here but essentially "the way" is basically "Tao" and that way(no pun intended) of thinking in both martial arts and life. Remember WC is a TCMA. For instance remember 'you move first but I move faster'? That is a principle supported in both WC and Taoism. That kind of stuff, etc.

"Storage" as far as I understand it is referring to never commit 100% power into any movement regardless of a clear line of attack. WC is heavy on switching. Power on, power off. Active/passive, etc. So essentially storage can be understood as 'passive within active'...

[Vajramusti]

Joy should be able to help out here but essentially "the way" is basically "Tao" and that way(no pun intended) of thinking in both martial arts and life. Remember WC is a TCMA. For instance remember 'you move first but I move faster'? That is a principle supported in both WC and Taoism. That kind of stuff, etc.

"Storage" as far as I understand it is referring to never commit 100% power into any movement regardless of a clear line of attack. WC is heavy on switching. Power on, power off. Active/passive, etc. So essentially storage can be understood as 'passive within active'...
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WC1277-true.


1. Some of the principles are more "external" physical links -like structure, distance, position etc. Others are
"internal"-mental or energetic -decision making, the way etc.
These principles have to be harmonized- making "adjustment" very important.

2.Conservation- not to use more energy specially in key joints than is necessary- you will need the conserved energy for fluidity and re direction of motion. If the structure is well balanced-conservation is easier to do. There are aspects of applied physics to this but not needed for discussion at this point.

3. The way-simplified- taking the most efficient and simplest path-like water seeping through attack, hole or opening..

joy chaudhuri

[WC1277]

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WC1277-true.


1. Some of the principles are more "external" physical links -like structure, distance, position etc. Others are
"internal"-mental or energetic -decision making, the way etc.
These principles have to be harmonized- making "adjustment" very important.

2.Conservation- not to use more energy specially in key joints than is necessary- you will need the conserved energy for fluidity and re direction of motion. If the structure is well balanced-conservation is easier to do. There are aspects of applied physics to this but not needed for discussion at this point.

3. The way-simplified- taking the most efficient and simplest path-like water seeping through attack, hole or opening..

joy chaudhuri

Thanks Joy, nicely put

[LoneTiger108]

In an attempt to maybe get this forum back on track I'd like to share the 13 principles according to Fong Sifu. This covers everything applicable to WC in one way or another. Also, I'll post structural requirements broken down...

- Structure
- Adjustment
- Positioning
- Timing
- Distance
- Reaction
- Control
- Power
- Storage
- Decision
- Aggressiveness
- Guts
- The Way

Structure:

1. Cutting/Scraping
2. Equalize/Neutralize
3. Static/Dynamic
4. Active/Passive Arm Triangle
5. Active/Passive Stance
6. Set Structure/Wall and Send
7. No Planning
8. Adjust Elbow V Shape
9. Lock 3 Structures Together:
Arms - Body - Legs
10. Adjust Square Shoulder

All of the sub-principles come from these main 13....

So do you actually use all 10 sub-principles in each of the 13 main principles? Or am I getting confused... :confused:

[Vajramusti]

So do you actually use all 10 sub-principles in each of the 13 main principles? Or am I getting confused... :confused:
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WC us far more sharing than I am inclined to (because threads go so easily awry with information overload).

If you look at the list-- the ten subcategories are for structural issues and development.

Each category- such as timing and distance and positioning have their own sub categories,


joy chaudhuri

[Wayfaring]

In an attempt to maybe get this forum back on track I'd like to share the 13 principles according to Fong Sifu. This covers everything applicable to WC in one way or another. Also, I'll post structural requirements broken down...

- Structure
- Adjustment
- Positioning
- Timing
- Distance
- Reaction
- Control
- Power
- Storage
- Decision
- Aggressiveness
- Guts
- The Way

Structure:

1. Cutting/Scraping
2. Equalize/Neutralize
3. Static/Dynamic
4. Active/Passive Arm Triangle
5. Active/Passive Stance
6. Set Structure/Wall and Send
7. No Planning
8. Adjust Elbow V Shape
9. Lock 3 Structures Together:
Arms - Body - Legs
10. Adjust Square Shoulder

All of the sub-principles come from these main 13....

Most helpful post regarding Fong sifu's WCK I've seen on the forum. Would love to see you drill into a couple to try to explain the links. We all realize the media is nowhere near as conducive to doing so on the Internet as it would be by simple physical demonstration along with explanation in person. We all also realize posting up video has other implications. So if you're up for it, I would love further info if you wouldn't mind handling static, questions, dissention, etc.

[LoneTiger108]

Thanks Joy it helps see where you guys are coming from in some ways

[Vajramusti]

Thanks Joy it helps see where you guys are coming from in some ways
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You are welcome Spencer.

joy

[WC1277]

Most helpful post regarding Fong sifu's WCK I've seen on the forum. Would love to see you drill into a couple to try to explain the links. We all realize the media is nowhere near as conducive to doing so on the Internet as it would be by simple physical demonstration along with explanation in person. We all also realize posting up video has other implications. So if you're up for it, I would love further info if you wouldn't mind handling static, questions, dissention, etc.

I am more than open to answering any questions involving the system. And possibly Joy may partake too if he's game. I feel it's important to share what I consider, after much scrutinization, to be a rather complete and detailed system of WC as taught and refined by Augustine Fong.

On that note, however, it's important for me to state that anything I say or express is completely my own understanding of what was taught to me and, unless otherwise noted, is not necessarily the understanding or teaching of Fong Sifu. I think it's important for that distinction to be made and probably would be helpful to many on this forum to take that position when talking about their systems....

So feel free to ask away...

[jesper]

On that note, however, it's important for me to state that anything I say or express is completely my own understanding of what was taught to me and, unless otherwise noted, is not necessarily the understanding or teaching of Fong Sifu.

your american right. you got to be american :D

[Vajramusti]

your american right. you got to be american :D
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What does that mean?

[WingChunABQ]

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What does that mean?

He's clearly stating that WC is in possession of an American right.

Had he said "you're", it might be a question of WC's nationality. For some reason. :D

In any case, in reference to your #3 above Joy ("the way simplified"), does this have anything to do with "leakage" attacks as articulated in the Kuit? What exactly are leakage attacks?

[jesper]

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What does that mean?

this oven is for making food. your not supposed to dry your cats or other live creatures in it as it may bring them harm.
Just reminded me of the stupid disclaimers on household items etc which has been brought about by all the stupid lawsuits :D

[Vajramusti]

He's clearly stating that WC is in possession of an American right.

((I still don't fpllow. But no problem- forget it))

Had he said "you're", it might be a question of WC's nationality. For some reason. :D

((??? never mind)

In any case, in reference to your #3 above Joy ("the way simplified"), does this have anything to do with "leakage" attacks as articulated in the Kuit? What exactly are leakage attacks?

((WC 1277 posted the fundamental principles- I will let him answer the question))

joy chaudhuri

[WC1277]

this oven is for making food. your not supposed to dry your cats or other live creatures in it as it may bring them harm.
Just reminded me of the stupid disclaimers on household items etc which has been brought about by all the stupid lawsuits :D

No, just don't want to come across like I represent complete knowledge of WC of my Sifu like the majority of yahoos on this forum. The lineage wars started that way, why would I want to perpetuate it? IMO everyone is their own version of WC. The Sifu just guides you while it's up to you to understand it both objectively and subjectively. Why would I talk for him when I'm not him?

[WC1277]

He's clearly stating that WC is in possession of an American right.

Had he said "you're", it might be a question of WC's nationality. For some reason. :D

In any case, in reference to your #3 above Joy ("the way simplified"), does this have anything to do with "leakage" attacks as articulated in the Kuit? What exactly are leakage attacks?

I don't follow?

[WingChunABQ]

Stupid joke coming from the Grammar Nazi in me - your vs. you're.

It failed. *sigh!*

But the questions about the "leakage attacks" still stands.

[WC1277]

Stupid joke coming from the Grammar Nazi in me - your vs. you're.

It failed. *sigh!*

But the questions about the "leakage attacks" still stands.

No worries, do you by chance have the kuen kuit saying? My memory fails me.

[Vajramusti]

No worries, do you by chance have the kuen kuit saying? My memory fails me.
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From the old list of kuen kuit collected bt Fong Sifu:

Strike any presented posture if it is there. Otherwise strike where you see motion. Beware of sneak attacks, leakage attacks and invisible centerline attacks.

[WC1277]

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From the old list of kuen kuit collected bt Fong Sifu:

Strike any presented posture if it is there. Otherwise strike where you see motion. Beware of sneak attacks, leakage attacks and invisible centerline attacks.

I have no idea. Maybe Joy could elaborate....

[Vajramusti]

I have no idea. Maybe Joy could elaborate....
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Possibly-FWIW-IMO-a warning regarding holes in ones structure where attacks can get through.

joy chaudhuri

[WingChunABQ]

I have often seen Fong Sifu get very quick shots in during chi sao, where he'll strike very quickly and then go back to the position he was previously holding. (over and over again in the first 20 seconds or so of this video: http://www.fongswingchun.com/FlowingChiSao2.mp4 )

I wonder if that's what it refers to?

And "invisible center line"?

[WC1277]

I have often seen Fong Sifu get very quick shots in during chi sao, where he'll strike very quickly and then go back to the position he was previously holding. (over and over again in the first 20 seconds or so of this video: http://www.fongswingchun.com/FlowingChiSao2.mp4 )

I wonder if that's what it refers to?

And "invisible center line"?

I don't think that would be related. You have to remember that's chi sao. You wouldn't be going back to your "roll" in application. You would just continue to attack....

[Vajramusti]

I have often seen Fong Sifu get very quick shots in during chi sao, where he'll strike very quickly and then go back to the position he was previously holding. (over and over again in the first 20 seconds or so of this video: http://www.fongswingchun.com/FlowingChiSao2.mp4 )

I wonder if that's what it refers to?

((The video is regular chi sao. But leakage can be very specific in tight close quarters)Joy

And "invisible center line"?

((When you know there is line and with a chum kiu motion you use it- but the other guy's vision is blocked and he does not see it))joy (my interpretation anyway- kuen kuit is suggestive-the practitioner finds the applications by usage and experience) joy