Learning Wing Chun online?

[Matt_WCK]

My question is: can you effectively learn Wing Chun using internet resources like youtube, internet articles and forums such as this and has anyone done so or, are they an effective addition to your training or do they serve no purpose and all instruction must come from your sifu?

The reason I'm asking is that I teach Wing Chun in London and am simultaneously looking into the utility of internet-based resources in the learning of Wing Chun.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Matt_WCK;1166285]My question is: can you effectively learn Wing Chun using internet resources like youtube, internet articles and forums such as this
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
IMO- NO.

joy chaudhuri

[Sihing73]

Hello,

While online and video resources can be valuable for reinforcing what one has or is learning, as well as for exposure to other methods, it is not a good resource, imho, for learning the art.

The reason is simply that without actual interaction with someone better than you it is too easy to make mistakes. With WC, as with most arts, one needs to be exposed to the energy of the movements/techniques in order to learn and perfect them. Chi Sau is a great example; one can mimic the movements by watchin others, but without being taught the movements and feeling the proper energy exchanged it will never really be learned.

Without someone with more experience to correct ones moves it is very easy to mistake one thing for another.

Perhaps this would be a good reference for those in ones class to reinforce things already taught, but I am doubtful of the ability to use it to "teach" new material.

[YouKnowWho]

My question is: can you effectively learn Wing Chun using internet resources like youtube, internet articles and forums such as this and has anyone done so or, are they an effective addition to your training or do they serve no purpose and all instruction must come from your sifu?

The reason I'm asking is that I teach Wing Chun in London and am simultaneously looking into the utility of internet-based resources in the learning of Wing Chun.

It'll work if all he following conditions are met.

- You need to provide clear and detail (from different angles) online teaching movie clips.
- Your teaching clips has to include "solo training", "partner training", "equipment training", ...
- The student will need a training partner.
- He will need to have a video camera.
- He will need to send you his progress by movie clips.
- You have to be able to comment on his movie clips.
- You have to be able to answer all his questions "daily".

[Edgar]

Hey Matt,

Instead of creating an online course to teach Wing Chun, why not create review material for your current students? This would work well because they can learn it at home and practice it in your class.

-Edgar

[Sihing73]

It'll work if all he following conditions are met.

- You need to provide clear and detail (from different angles) online teaching movie clips.
- Your teaching clips has to include "solo training", "partner training", "equipment training", ...
- The student will need a training partner.
- He will need to have a video camera.
- He will need to send you his progress by movie clips.
- You have to be able to comment on his movie clips.
- You have to be able to answer all his questions "daily".

YouKnowWho,

Do you honestly believe you can learn via video/online training?

How do you think a person who trains online would fair when comparing skills with someone who trained with a Sifu or Sihing directly?

There are many "Distance Learning Courses" available for a variety of different arts. Some better than others. One thing all seem to have in common is to require at least some hands on training every few months in order to do a detailed review of what has been learned. I feel that the online or distance courses are best used by those who already have a strong foundation on which to build, even if that foundation is not Wing Chun.

I look at it like this;

Take learning a musical instrument. Anyone may be able to play the notes or mimic the performance of a master. But have the two play side by side and the differences will be clear. There is more to music than playing notes and there is more to Wing Chun and other Martial Arts than copying the movements of others.

[YouKnowWho]

Do you honestly believe you can learn via video/online training?
If an instructor gives you (general YOU) enough detail such as:

- left hand control right arm,
- right hand push upper body,
- right leg kick leading leg off the ground,

do you think you can learn the "front cut(Osoto Gari)" with clip like this? If you have problem to learn then what will that be?

http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/osotogari.htm

One day my teacher told me a story that he challenged a Judo master in Beijing "东郊民巷(Dong Jiao Min Xiang) - foreign territory":

"I used my knee to strike at his upper inside leg. When he moves his leg back, I hook his other leg".

He had never shown me that move in person. I don't know how the footwork work. I don't even know how the hands should be coordinated with the legs. With just "common sense" and "imagination", I could even learn that technique from his story.

IMO, you need to have the ability to learn anyway you can, and not just from your teacher's "spoon feeding". The movie clip is much more than you need.

I know we are talking about WC here. But if you can learn "throwing art" online, I don't see any reason that you can't learn "striking art" the same way.

[Ben Gash]

The big problem with trying to learn from that clip is it doesn't explain the Kazushi, and if you haven't got that, you're the one who's going to be thrown.

[Sihing73]

do you think you can learn the "front cut(Osoto Gari)" with clip like this? If you have problem to learn then what will that be?

http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/osotogari.htm

I know we are talking about WC here. But if you can learn "throwing art" on line, I don't see any reason that you can't learn "striking art" online.

So, using your clip as an example:

What are the specific energies being applied? In how many directions are you actually applying force?
In what manner are you disrputing your opponents blance?
Do you "throw" the opponent over the leg or does he "fall" over it? (Look close so as to not just assume the throw is caused by the kickback of the leg....or is it? ;) )
In what way do you insure the opponent does not take you down with him?

I am sure I could come up with other questions but these are off the top of my head. The danger of learning from anything other than a senior is that you often miss the subtlities and tend to relay on muscle to power your way through things.

A good Judoka will understand the angles and be taught to break the eight directions. So, please explain to me what those eight directions are or show me that I have no clue as to throwing or Judo as an example. And no, I did not learn Judo through books or video but by learning from a qualified instructor. Albeit quite a number of years ago, prior to my learning Wing Chun as a matter of fact.

You can mimic the movements and perhaps be able to apply them against someone of no real skill, the popular scrubs.........but against anyone with any formal training, the self taught and video warrior would not fare so well, imho.

[Sihing73]

The big problem with trying to learn from that clip is it doesn't explain the Kazushi, and if you haven't got that, you're the one who's going to be thrown.

Not be a stickler for details but I believe you are referring to "kuzushi" ;)

[YouKnowWho]

What are the specific energies being applied? In how many directions are you actually applying force?
This question may be too "abstract" to me. I know some WC guys like to talk about "snake engine" and "6DFV". To me, whether you can knock/throw down your opponent or not, that's all I care about.


In what manner are you disrputing your opponents blance?

This is why the training partner is important. If you try this move with your training partner, it's not hard to figure out that you can destroy your opponent's balance by:

- push his head down and kick his leg up.
- block his leg and run him down.
- twist his leg and crush his body structure.
- ...

As long as you can "move your opponent's center of gravity to be outside of his base" (defined by his feet position), you can just let the gravity to do the rest. Of course the teacher will need to provide this information as well.

http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/2850/balancebase.jpg


In what way do you insure the opponent does not take you down with him?

You may prefer the "throat hold" or "cross lapel hold" to execute your "front cut" instead. When your opponent pulls you down, you can "smash" his head to the ground. You will figure that out quickly with your training partner. This is why the training partner is "extreamly" important.


You can mimic the movements and perhaps be able to apply them against someone of no real skill, the popular scrubs.........but against anyone with any formal training, the self taught and video warrior would not fare so well, imho.

Agree with you on this. This is why the "foundation training" should also be part of the online training. If you are smart, you can learn a lot online. If you are not, you may not even belong to the MA world in the first place. :p

The online training is not perfect, but it's "better than nothing". To have "some" is still bettern than to have "none".

[trubblman]

My question is: can you effectively learn Wing Chun using internet resources like youtube, internet articles and forums such as this and has anyone done so or, are they an effective addition to your training or do they serve no purpose and all instruction must come from your sifu?

The reason I'm asking is that I teach Wing Chun in London and am simultaneously looking into the utility of internet-based resources in the learning of Wing Chun.

One cannot learn VT from Internet. While the internet can be used [judiciously] as a resource VT is hands-on experience. I would imagine the same would apply to any fighting art.

[Happy Tiger]

As has been mentioned, you can supplement your formal training with knowlege from any and all sources...the sticky is, can you be objective in your acceptence of the info? You tube is a great opportunity to see what everyone is doing, and to observe how people really fight in actual combat caught on cam. Also, there are many 'classic' martial arts training films from the 80s, 70s and back that where greatly sought after at the time and now can be seen by everyone. In anthropological sense, these old films are great comparative study, for 'purity' since many ving tsun houses have cross pollinated now or changed.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You can learn ANYTHING online.
How WELL, that is the question eh?

If a person has a base core, a solid point of reference AND some training partners that are experienced too, yes they can.
Attending seminars will help too.
BUT that is ONLY if there is a solid point of reference, a solid core to work from.
Learning BJJ BASICS online when you have years in Judo for example.
Learning Shotokan karate online when you have years in TKD for example.
Learning CLF when you have years in Hung Kuen.
Etc...

[Wayfaring]

IMO you can learn things from video resources, but it's harder. I don't think it's very easy to do that starting from scratch though. One of the best online/video resources I've seen from scratch are the Gracie Combatives / Gracie University. They have 36 lessons covering beginner to blue belt, and a testing process for sending in a video for testing for blue belt. Of course this is controversial and the "feel" portion is what is so much more difficult to learn with that media. The blue belts they turn out aren't "real" either. What I mean by this is I have traveled to a local "Gracie garage" and trained with members there. They are easily overwhelmed by an opponent with good connected basic ground fundamentals. In other words, there are things live hands on training teaches you that you can't learn without it. However, as the Combatives idea shows, it's better to train from a video than not to train at all.

For example, the osoto gari example above. You could take the instruction from the online link and start to learn the rough edges of the throw. With a partner and experimentation you may learn a few more details. However, you wouldn't even know how to train to get better at the throw. You wouldn't know the 3 phases of the throw (kuzushi/unbalancing, entry, finish). You wouldn't know how to seperate out exercises to train those 3 phases. What equipment is necessary to train them (kimonos, crash pad, flooring requirements)? You wouldn't get to the advanced details, like punching the sleeve arm out at a 45 degree angle, loading up the weight in the lapel grip elbow forcing the opponent's weight onto his near leg, the proper angle of forward lean you need on entry to prevent being countered, the extension thru the throw to complete it and land, the adjustments once hitting the ground and follow-on chained attacks. You wouldn't know the counter throw to this throw or the grip fighting that sets it up. You wouldn't have a feel for building speed in your entry to the throw and the feel for how to time your entry to beat your opponent's counter entry. In other words, you wouldn't know about 80% of the details that make the difference in making the throw work versus a resisting opponent or not. So in a usage scenario, you wouldn't know the details necessary to make this throw work on a bouncer in a club, for example, versus getting stuffed and eating pavement.

Oh, and the better you are, the easier it is to pick up things from video. Many advanced practitioners of arts watch competition video, as opposed to instructional.

[YouKnowWho]

People have pointed out the missing elements in the following clip such as:

How to

- set it up?
- finish?
- counter?
- counter the counters?
- train solo?
- enhance it with equipment?
- ...

This is why a single "technique" clip is not sufficient. If you want to teach your students, you will also provide all the above information and not just a single "technique" clip as the following.

http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/osotogari.htm


Many advanced practitioners of arts watch competition video, as opposed to instructional.
Because you can learn how to set a certain technique up. Here is a good example how to set up a turn back/hook kick. IMO, it's easier to learn a technique, it's much harder to learn how to set it up against a full resistence opponent.

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/2049/2706201092556new.gif

[Sihing73]

Hello,

Okay, then let me say this:

If you want to just learn the movements or the shapes you can "learn" from Video or Online.

If you want to learn the application, especially against resisting opponents, then you need to "learn" from an instructor or someone more senior than yourself.

Lots of MMA fighters have videos out there.......................I would like to know of just one who actually fights who learned from Video or Online.........and wins :D

There are too many subtleties entailed in understanding and applying a martial art to be learned from Video or online. Yes you can gain insight but the level of skill will be subpar to one who has trained under an instructor.

[YouKnowWho]

When a teacher teaches a 50 students class, and if he only uses his senior student to demonstrate his technique. The rest of his students just get their partners and repeat the same move as shown. What's the difference between learning in this environment that you can only see your teacher from a distance vs. learning from video with partner?

Every single word that the teacher has said in the class can be repeated in the video tape as well.

[Sihing73]

When a teacher teaches a 50 students class, and if he only uses his senior student to demonstrate his technique. The rest of his students just get their partners and repeat the same move as shown. What's the difference between learning in this environment that you can only see your teacher from a distance vs. learning from video with partner?

Every single word that the teacher has said in the class can be repeated in the video tape as well.

The difference is that a good instructor and his seniors will move around the room and correct those learning. The feeling or actual physical correction cannot be duplicated by video learning. Also, the instructor is available to show the student things in person.

Besides, most Wing Chun classes I have taught or visited are less than 50 students.

[overall]

When a teacher teaches a 50 students class, and if he only uses his senior student to demonstrate his technique. The rest of his students just get their partners and repeat the same move as shown. What's the difference between learning in this environment that you can only see your teacher from a distance vs. learning from video with partner?

Every single word that the teacher has said in the class can be repeated in the video tape as well.

If that teacher is not looking at what you are doing and if he is not correcting your moves, it is the same thing and it is bad teacher.

[k gledhill]

http://martialartschoolonline.com/Trainingcertification.html

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hello,

Okay, then let me say this:

If you want to just learn the movements or the shapes you can "learn" from Video or Online.

If you want to learn the application, especially against resisting opponents, then you need to "learn" from an instructor or someone more senior than yourself.

Lots of MMA fighters have videos out there.......................I would like to know of just one who actually fights who learned from Video or Online.........and wins :D

There are too many subtleties entailed in understanding and applying a martial art to be learned from Video or online. Yes you can gain insight but the level of skill will be subpar to one who has trained under an instructor.

There was an MMA fighter that started competing and winning from learning MMA via DVD and working out with partners in a home gym.
I forget his name.

[Happy Tiger]

BON there's a wing chun 'app' for Blackberry:)

[Sihing73]

There was an MMA fighter that started competing and winning from learning MMA via DVD and working out with partners in a home gym.
I forget his name.

If you aint got video it never happened ;) :D

Or so I've been told. :p

[Vajramusti]

If you aint got video it never happened ;) :D

Or so I've been told. :p
--------------------------------------------
Possibly Jim Corbett never knocked out John Sullivan

joy chaudhuri

[Lee Chiang Po]

Learning from video is easier than learning from a book, but then it also depends on many variables. How well it is illustrated, how well the instructor explains, and then how well the student understands. If you don't have an ability to understand fighting concepts you are not likely to learn fighting well. Then if the instructor does not convey the knowledge in a learnable manner, you will not learn. Most books are sketchy at best and do not really cover. They are just mostly designed to take your money before you figure out it is crap. Then again, video is much the same. Not everyone can teach. You don't have to be an undefeated champion to teach others to fight, but you have to be able to convey your complete thoughts in a manner to cover all points. Your not going to find that in a book or dvd. You are not really likely to find that in a kwoon either.
Master Wong comes to mind.

[jeoge]

I think that's difficult,

[Frost]

There was an MMA fighter that started competing and winning from learning MMA via DVD and working out with partners in a home gym.
I forget his name.

The late evan Tanner taught himself Submissions submission and grappling techniques using instructional videos created by the Gracie family.
I also believe Jeremy Horn also learned his early skills from videos before going over to Japan
:)

[Frost]

If you aint got video it never happened ;) :D

Or so I've been told. :p

plenty of clips of both of them in action :D

[k gledhill]

Mainland online tuition http://youtu.be/wW8iw7UCgsE

[sanjuro_ronin]

The late evan Tanner taught himself Submissions submission and grappling techniques using instructional videos created by the Gracie family.
I also believe Jeremy Horn also learned his early skills from videos before going over to Japan
:)

Yeah, I think Tanner is the one I was thinking of.
Again, one an actually be pretty well self trained from a DVD series IF:
You have prior MA/fighting experience in a similar system
You have training partners.

[k gledhill]

part 1 tutorial clip (http://youtu.be/lnSw_xi57ag)

[Sihing73]

plenty of clips of both of them in action :D

Sorry, unfamiliar with either of them. :o

I still say you cannot learn from Video, although Paul does make a point about having prior experience and training partners.

You can grasp things if you already have a foundation, but you would not be a good example, imho, of the art you are learning via video unless you also have hands on training with someone more senior than yourself.

Consider that one can kill a bear with a .22 rifle. Does not necessarily mean that is the right tool for the job at hand. Just cause it may be possible, does not mean it is the optimum?

For me, if I am facing, say a Polar Bear charging me, even though it may be possible for me to kill said bear with my .22 I would opt for something else. Same thing with learning via Video, if I had the opportunity to train with someone trained in the system I desire to study I would opt for the hands on opportunity.

[Vajramusti]

For me, if I am facing, say a Polar Bear charging me, even though it may be possible for me to kill said bear with my .22 I would opt for something else. Same thing with learning via Video, if I had the opportunity to train with someone trained in the system I desire to study I would opt for the hands on opportunity.
--------------------------
Hey Dave- leave the polar bears alone. If you don't enter their territory you are far from their minds.

joy

[hulkout]

My sifu always says that Wing Chun is learned at the dinner table. You learn a lot of important theories, principles, and strategies when you're not actually training, but just sitting around talking. That's when things really sink in. When I first started training in Wing Chun, a few of us would stay 30 minutes or so after class and just talk to our sifu. Things were still fresh in our mind because we had just finished our class. So we could really absorb a lot. So yes, it is definitely possible to learn things from videos, but only if you are already training in that martial art with a qualified teacher. You can learn various drills and concepts and then try them in class. Try things on your sihings. You need to train with people better than you if you're going to improve. And always ask your sifu if you're not sure. Sometimes you can learn something from a video and when you try it in class, it doesn't work well. Your sifu can always give you a little tip that will help make it work. That's the only way you can learn anything from videos in my opinion. If you're just at home practicing with your buddy, it's not going to work. If you're both doing it wrong, there's no one there to tell you.

[wingchunIan]

looking at some of the stuff on you tube and taught as Wing Chun I'd say people have been learning Wing Chun from books and videaos for years:rolleyes:. In a very sophisticated two way feedback process it might be possible to learn some of what Wing Chun has to offer by distance learning, but so much of the system relies on feeling, a bit like watching chi sau only gives half of the picture because you can never see the energy being applied. It also very much depends upon the student's learning modality, I have a number of students whose learning only really takes off if they get to feel the technique being executed

[LoneTiger108]

looking at some of the stuff on you tube and taught as Wing Chun I'd say people have been learning Wing Chun from books and videaos for years:rolleyes:.

:eek: No! Really??? For some mundane reason I totally agree with you on this one Ian... maybe even longer than you think

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YnEm1zaUyE

[EternalSpring]

My sifu always says that Wing Chun is learned at the dinner table.

Nice! My sifu says the same thing as well! I always wondered if that ideal was passed around in other families. Never really mentioned it before due to not wanting to deal with potential responses of "Oooh, tough guy here learns the dim-sum fist from his sifu!" :D

[EternalSpring]

But yea, going back to the thread topic. I think things can be learned online, but learning kung fu or martial arts in general online is hard imo. I feel that most answers in the thread say that it's possible under certain circumstances such as

-the person studying online has a live training partner
-the person studying online has experience training with people in an art
-the person studying online can occasionally meet up with a teacher who judges his progress

and while i agree with those sentiments, it is important to note that what those statements are really saying is "learning online becomes more possible as you turn the situation into one where you're not really learning online." Or in other words, learning online is possible if you have a way to make your online lessons become "in person" lessons as well. While it's true, I wouldn't say it's purely learning online.

The reason I'm not a big fan of learning online is based on this logic: Most of us here have trained under our sifus in person. Im sure at one point (if not every point), we've all learned something from sifu, and then had sifu correct/refine it over time as we trained it. My siu nim tao appeared normal when i started Ving Tsun, but now there's a lot more to it than originally met the eye when I started training. Now if we cant even get a full understanding of something when learning with a Sifu in person without seeing him/her in person continuously, then learning online must have a huge disadvantage in this sense.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sorry, unfamiliar with either of them. :o

I still say you cannot learn from Video, although Paul does make a point about having prior experience and training partners.

You can grasp things if you already have a foundation, but you would not be a good example, imho, of the art you are learning via video unless you also have hands on training with someone more senior than yourself.

Consider that one can kill a bear with a .22 rifle. Does not necessarily mean that is the right tool for the job at hand. Just cause it may be possible, does not mean it is the optimum?

For me, if I am facing, say a Polar Bear charging me, even though it may be possible for me to kill said bear with my .22 I would opt for something else. Same thing with learning via Video, if I had the opportunity to train with someone trained in the system I desire to study I would opt for the hands on opportunity.

Context is needed.
I have a shodan in Judo as most know and had this before I started BJJ.
Before I started BJJ I also got a few DVD series so as to familarize myself with BJJ.
I trained a few months with friends ( judokas and strikers) and when I started BJJ, in my first rolling session with the instructor he asked me where I had done BJJ before and what belt I was.
Of course Judo is identical to BJJ in many regards to the point of reference from one to the other almost identical.

Point being that I could indeed have learned BJJ from a DVD and gotten quite good at it because I have extensive prior experience with a system that was a "sister system" AND had training partners.

In terms of WC that would be like a Pak mei learning WC from a DVD or, even better, a Moy Yat guy learning WSL WC from a DVD.

Beyond that, it is A LOT to ask of anyone to learn a fighting art from a DVD or online.
Not impossible mind you, just impractical.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Quite apropo under the circumstances:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jvVObjQwwE


:D

[Wayfaring]

I can learn a technique or movement from a DVD or online. What I can't learn from online is:

1) The 10,000 reps with correct form necessary to become proficient
2) How to use it live.
3) Correcting my own positioning and form during execution (much much harder)
4) Fine tuning details. When to focus on what details during my proficiency development.

The more experience you have with something similar to what you are learning, the easier it will be to pick up. But to me it takes such a long, long time to do this. I need video up and running where I have a training surface, I need a partner, I need to rapidly go back and forth over the video, etc. The quality of the video matters as well. What detail is being shown? Who is the audience? Etc. I need to manufacture drills to set up the context of the technique. And I need to move to performing it live. All this before I can add it in to my live training arsenal.

It's just a lot easier and faster to have somebody show you and provide a roadmap and path to implementing the technique.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

While some may know, I have studied Wing Chun for a little while. Prior to Wing Chun I have also trained in Judo and Pekiti Tirsia.

When I first learned Wing Chun I was under the impression, mistaken in my opinion, that I could learn what I needed from books. Back then video was rare if it was available.........though I am not as old as Phil, I believe in his time they used drawings on the walls of caves, ;)

What I learned was that I did indeed need someone to teach me as I made what may seem like small mistakes but those mistakes changed the whole thing.

What I did find out is that once I started training with a Sifu, all of the things I read about made more sense. I could then see them from a different perspective. So, while my reading and other research was of benefit, it really was of limited benefit until I had the opportunity to train with someone more senior than myself.

I have several videos which I use as a point of reference. Some Wing Chun and some of the Kuntao and Silat variety. However, despite my knowledge and prior experience in both Silat, Kuntao and Pektiti Tirsia Kali, the videos would be of limited use for learning without another base or point of reference gained from training with someone with more experience.

So I think we are all pretty much agreeing that Video training can be of benefit. But, the benefit increases with access to a knowledgeable sifu or with experience in a similar system. However to try and learn a system, with no prior foundation, strictly from Video alone is difficult at best and highly improbable as the most common result.

[k gledhill]

Quite apropo under the circumstances:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jvVObjQwwE


:D

Excellent.....

[strike101]

nice online training site opened recently. has the entire wing chun system

www.wingchunonline.net

there's no substitute to training under a good Sifu but I think this kind of site would be a good compliment to your training