Okay, someone put me out of my misery...

[Sharky]

To build BIGGER muscles, do you lift heavy weights and do less reps, and do them slowly?

To build STRONGER muscles do u lift lighter loads with more reps, quickly?

What are the "rules"?

Thanks

My anus is superiorâ„¢

[Lost_Disciple]

We've had about 5 threads in the last 2 months cover this exact question.

Big Muscles
Heavy weight varied rep tempo (speed) Don't work out too long (keep it an hour or less) Keep your total number of sets under 2 Dozen Anywhere from 6 to 10 reps per set (except on 1rep maximums), try to hit failure Don't work out too often- 2 days then a day of rest Get enough sleep Eat a decent source of carbs and protein within an hour of working out Eat TONS of Protein (a gram per pound is a good start) Focus on compound exercises (deadlift, squat) & isolated exercises (bicep dumbbell curls, etc)

Powerful Muscles (strong muscles without too much size)
Heavy weight Faster rep tempo on the up swing (the lifting part of the motion) Slower tempo on the way down Don't lift until failure- don't seek soreness Lift between 1 and 6 reps per set Try to increase the total number of sets, as you're doing fewer reps per set- about 4 to 8 sets per exercise Concentrate more on compound exercises (deadlift, squat, barbell curl, etc) and less on isolation exercises (bicep dumbbell curls, etc) Eat a good amount of protein (but less than a gram per pound) You can more easily work in workouts with your martial arts traing, as you shouldn't get as sore

There's probably more than this, but this is a decent summary. I'm really curious about the lifting techniques Pavel promotes, if anybody's got more information on them.

Hope it helps.

Just some thoughts from an ignoramus.

[IronFist]

Wow, I can't believe I agree with someone!!! Good call, Lost_Disciple. Just let me add one thing.

You said:

Slower tempo on the way down for building strength. I just thought I would point out that the negative portion of a movement (ie. the "down" part on most exercises) has been shown to be primarily responcible for soreness following a workout. So, slower negatives may infact cause post workout soreness in the days that follow.

Oops, one more thing. If you're doing a routine for size, you probably won't be working the same muscle group more than once ever 5-7 days. Why? Because a) your muscles will most likely be sore as crÃ*p the following days after a workout. This is why you should work like muscles together, ie. chest triceps and front deltoids. The soreness thing is especially true for legs. Have fun walking the day after you do lots of sets of squats and calf raises :)

Finally, if you don't let a muscle fully heal between workouts, you will get SMALLER and WEAKER.

No, this is Finally. Finally, if you are going for size, you must not only eat tons of protein, but tons of EVERYTHING. Having a surplus of calories is the ONLY way to gain weight. Working out doesn't make you bigger, eating and resting makes you bigger. If you're not overweight right now, aim to increase your daily intake of calories by about 1000 throughout the next few weeks. If you are overweight, don't even think about bulking up until you've dieted down to a reasonable body fat %.

DÃ*mn I ramble on.

Iron

[ged]

one more thing which i just found out today which helped me a lot in workouts.

water dragon, you said in another post that going to 'failure' is really pushing on the weight for another 20-30 seconds. ive been trying something, where on exercises with a spotter (eg military press, benchpress and biceps with that weird platform thingy) once u cant lift any more by yourself, get the spottter to JUST help you for another 3. u should be doing these last ones really slow, as he'll only be lending a finger or so.

makes me feel a lot more burn, so i think that would be for... bigger muscles?

great summary guys of all the stupid questions ive been asking, thanks.

[Lost_Disciple]

ged
yah, that's what we've been calling failure

IronFist
I totally agree with you on the soreness. I learned the hard way, doing eccentric (30 second negative) pull ups for about 4 or 5 months and showing no improvement, sometimes too sore to sleep. I started wussing out and doing assisted pull ups and got up to 3 pullups (from 5 months of only being able to do 1) in less than a month. I only added the "slower on the way down" for 2 reasons:
1. so he's not doing hyper-speed reps which are just plain stupid
2. Because slower, almost isometric lifts, give you a different kind of strength. It's this kind of strength that martial artists build with horse stance, so I wanted to be sure that we were covering both sides of the puzzle

Just some thoughts from an ignoramus.

[Sharky]

Spank you all very much.

But isn't a max of six reps very little? Are we talking using really heavy weights, and not feeling much burn? Is it ok if you don't feel burn for strength/power training?

And i usually do 3 sets - do i take that up to say, 5/6/7 sets of less reps?

My anus is superiorâ„¢

[Lost_Disciple]

Yes, 6 reps is short. It's supposed to be, you're supposed to be stopping before the maximum of your capabilities, ie. not going to failure.

Yes, you're supposed to be lifting heavy. But not too heavy, and not too quickly. As I said above, you should be able to do more than 6 reps with that weight, but it should be a significant percentage of your 1 rep maximum (between 60 and 80%).

Yes, it's okay not to "feel the burn". The burn is a build up of lactic acid. Feeling the burn means that you may have lactic acid causing soreness long after the workout. This build up of lactic acid slows down your recuperation, taking longer to heal up after a particular workout. It's okay not to be sore the next day.

Again we covered all this in the earlier posts, and I thought I reiterated them in my quick list. The long of it is that the old "hard work", "nose to the grindstone" work ethic of our forefathers, doesn't translate well into weightlifting, strength training, and modern sports science. The reason behind this is because your body needs time to heal. The more sore you are, the more time your body needs to heal, and the less productive you are. Going to failure works with trying to build size, because (to an extent) you need to send your body into shock to get it to start growing- but even building size, you need to be wary of overtraining. The best way to go about training for power is to train well within your body's recuperative capabilities, so your body can improve. The best thing about this is that the lack of soreness lets you be more productive in your other activities, ie martial arts. It can also improve your attitude- avoiding the normal depression and irritability that comes with overworked muscles.

When I say "no soreness" I need to clarify that it's actually a "minimal amount of soreness". You should still have some vague idea of what you worked on the day before, but far from the dull to sharp aches & cramping that accompanies older workout routines.

Hope I've covered everything.

Just some thoughts from an ignoramus.

[SevenStar]

Good posts iron and LD

-SevenStar©
Step right up and get it -- whoever wants [defeat]

Come not between the dragon and his wrath...

[dumog93]

But i thought i might chime in and add that during my "powerlifting" i don't experience a "burn" at all,and i don't miss it either btw.As to the going to failure,i sometimes go to failure,though that isn't my goal in the workout.Sometimes i miss singles,or sometimes i need help on a couple of reps at the end of a workout during a set of 5.Again,this isn't something i'm shooting for,but it happens.Sometimes i run out of gas,lose focus,or am just having a bad day.I always try to stay near my upper peak and keep pushing myself.I don't want people to think they can do 3 reps and call it good at 80% effort.I know most of you guys know what i'm talking about,but some people don't.You still need to be pushing your strength envelope without being a goon and making your lifting partner do half the reps.Some days i hit it so good my spotter could take a nap and let me wake him when i'm done.Other times i couldn't get through half my workouts without him.One thing about lifting heavy that is most important is my frame of mind and having a partner i'm comfortable with spotting me.

-Devildog

[Lost_Disciple]

Must be nice to have a spotter. ;)

.

Just some thoughts from an ignoramus.

[prana]

Sports Science 101

- Actual muscles fibers (Fibre recruitment)
trained by low reps. Max of 6. Intensity 80%- 120% (eccentrics or plyometrics) can be contra-indicated and will exhibit DOMS. Failure before lactic acid build up. Depletes TCP/CP

- Fat muscles (Glycogen)
Trained via hyperthrophy, 6-14 reps. Depleting Glycogen storages and encouraging more storage. Not as contra-indicated.

That is the reason why most muscle men cant lift their own weight to safe their lives with one arm, and Alexander Huber can pull 16 one arm chin-ups.

Actually both works in unison, in a proper pyramid, one trains capillarity, (ie 25-60 reps before failure) and then moves on to hyperthrophy before peaking with plyometrics. At this point, he/she is at his/her optimal performance.

Medicine Buddha
om namo bhagawate hekandzyai - guru bendurya prabha randzaya - tatagataya - arhate - samyaksam buddhaya - tayata om bhekandzyai bhekandzyai - maha bhekandzyai bhekandzyai -randza samungate soha

[Lost_Disciple]

prana
Are you recommending that for every exercise?
Talk about a plan for overtraining...
25 to 60 reps, failure, THEN hypertrophy, THEN do plyometrics/eccentrics?
I need to refine my definition of hypertrophy, because I had always associated it with failure occuring in the 8 to 10 rep range.
As I stated on the squats vs. horse stance thread I've had problems with plyometrics and really haven't been able to get tome to work without significant joint trauma.
Trying eccentrics at the end of every exercise if not using plyometrics?
IronFist and I have been arguing against eccentrics a lot recently, with backed up scientific studies. Of course we paraphrased these articles with normal language, didn't quote them directly, or give a complete citing; but we (I for sure) could provide this information with a bit of legwork if it were absolutely necessary.
Even if your plan doesn't incur massive overtraining; the training methods (ie hypertrophy) are geared towards generating size.

Also, I don't know what "muscle men" you're talking about but Charles Poliquin (the strength coach responsible for at least a little of what I recommend) can do like 60 regular pullups and upwards of 24 single armed. He's actually the one who got me doing eccentrics; which led me to finding out that they did nothing to improve my strength. Even Poliquin didn't advise doing more than 4 sets of eccentrics in a given day.
There are plenty of muscular guys who have functional strength and can use their bodyweight.
The reason the lifters in the past couldn't do much in the way of pullups was because they were mistakenly using unrelated exercises (like the lat pull down) for strength. Most have corrected this error and can now do more.
I also wouldn't look to professional bodybuilders for bodyweight exercises, as they go for pretty muscles, not exactly strong ones- and they freely admit this. They also rarely have any endurance, so even if they could do pull ups, or 1-arm pullups, they'd get winded after 8 or 10.

All due respects, but I'd be curious to hear who your sources are because your info just sounds outdated and incorrect; not to mention the fact that you're using overly scientific terminology. The rest of us (myself and IronFist) have been toning down the vocabulary to give relevant advice everyone can understand.

Just some thoughts from an ignoramus.

[IronFist]

One other thing about Bodybuilders and functional strength.

LD you are right about their muscles being for appearance over function, but also keep in mind it's a lot easier for a 180 or 200lb guy do do pullups than a 300lb BB'er :)

I wonder how close I am to being able to do one armed pullups. I weigh 170, 8%bf, and I can do 4 or 5 reps (with 2 hands) with 65 lbs around my waist. Still, and this is probably wrong, but I would assume that a one handed pullup is equivalent to a two handed pullup with twice your body weight. But I know there's other factors involved.

Iron

[dumog93]

His powerlifting type bench routine got me out of my bench slump(stuck at 230 or so).I am now pressing 345 with more confidence than i did 230 last year.I am still trying to figure out how to apply the same theories to my other exercises without thrashing my knees and elbows,but i'm getting close to figuring out how it works best with deadlifts at least,then squats.

-Devildog

[IronFist]

Dumog, can you give an example of his benching routine?

Iron

[dumog93]

as posted in an old mm2000 article i believe.

First off find your max for a 1 rep lift,then go along as follows:
45% for 5
62% for 3
75% for 1
88% for 1
95% for 5 sets of 1
78% for 5 sets of 5

The first 4 sets are all warm-ups,but also act to prepare you for the heavy weights to come on the singles.The sets of 5 may not seem too tough,but singles will drain you a bit.This work-out may be pretty unuseable without a spotter though unless you go on the light side,which may counteract the benefits.With this routine you only hit it once a week and you're done...i like that a lot as it gives me time to train other things like my martial arts.The only bad thing is that i've tried to apply it to my deadlifts and it has caused some problems there.I tried cutting the singles down to 3 sets as well as the 5's,but am still getting a bit of joint pain.Singles just aren't for every week on my knees it seems.If anyone else has any opinions how we might get this to work on other areas and wants to experiment a bit please keep me updated.For the amount of time and simplicity involved i don't think you can beat it.The only downside is the severe amount of effort you have to cram into a single workout.If you aren't in the right frame of mind,or just having a bad day you have to wait a week to play catch-up again.

-devildog

[prana]

Lets see, we used to train for competition climbing. This means, we work closely with smaller muscle groups eg... fingers.

1. I can see that you mistook me for when I said pyramid, you meant in one day. Actually, when we do the phase training, we do it in 4 (some 5 phases) spread over a few months.

2. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> but I'd be curious to hear who your sources are because your info just sounds outdated and incorrect; not to mention the fact that you're using overly scientific terminology. The rest of us (myself and IronFist) have been toning down the vocabulary to give relevant advice everyone can understand.
[/quote]

I have an incredbly rude and bad habit of doing this. My apologies. I just remember it from the days of attending classes in Sports Science in university, and from the days of training for competitions, far different from martials arts training. But we are talking about muscles...

3. Search for articles on the late Wolfgang Gullich on his route, Action Directe (8c+ French grades). Here is a short article I found...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> The legendary route, climbed by the late Wolfgang Gullich in 1991, received its second ascent from German Alex Adler in 1995, but despite efforts from the likes of Britain's Ben Moon, and Germany's Klem Loskot, no others have succeeded on the brutal series of lunges for poor two-finger pockets and monos on this severely overhanging 25-feet of limestone. [/quote]

To train for this route, he designed what is called a campus board. Training on first digit joints, and down to campusing on one finger only, the drops his body weight onto that finger (plyometrics) and lunges from his one finger to the next hold again, loading his one finger to maximum power.

This was the hardest route by many grades at the time, since then this route has only seen 4 repeats. It has been 10 years almost !

The campus board is a overhanging rung system of about first digit thickness, and each rung numbered 1-9 is 22cms apart. Think of it as holding on to your door frames at home with one finger, dropping your body weight down onto it and lunging from it as a form of plyometrics. I know high jumpers do this on their thighs for power, but this is what I meant by REAL muscles at work.

Medicine Buddha
om namo bhagawate hekandzyai - guru bendurya prabha randzaya - tatagataya - arhate - samyaksam buddhaya - tayata om bhekandzyai bhekandzyai - maha bhekandzyai bhekandzyai -randza samungate soha

[prana]

My bad to imply working all that in one day. It is a phase training method spread over 2-4 months in prep for optimum phase climbing/competition.

Medicine Buddha
om namo bhagawate hekandzyai - guru bendurya prabha randzaya - tatagataya - arhate - samyaksam buddhaya - tayata om bhekandzyai bhekandzyai - maha bhekandzyai bhekandzyai -randza samungate soha

[Lost_Disciple]

prana
sorry for the confusion. I shouldn't have come down so hard on yah. I just saw some earlier posts of your's that I didn't quite get where you were coming from, and wondered if you were a troll. My apologies.

Just some thoughts from an ignoramus.

[prana]

don't apologise, tis cool ! I have a nasty habit of using terms I learn in text books, cause sometimes those are the words that appear in my head.

My mental vocabulary dictionary is only about 2 pages long. But it is a good reminder to not post heavy words. But first, to be mindful of it :)

Medicine Buddha
om namo bhagawate hekandzyai - guru bendurya prabha randzaya - tatagataya - arhate - samyaksam buddhaya - tayata om bhekandzyai bhekandzyai - maha bhekandzyai bhekandzyai -randza samungate soha