Shaolin Chaoyang Quan

[Crosshandz]

Hey whats the background on Shaolin Chaoyang Quan? Just curious.

[LFJ]

We talked about it a bit on the Luohanquan (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=55283) thread.

It has relation to Zhaoyangquan, Guanchaoquan, etc., each of which have several roads. The sets are Qing Dynasty creations of monk Shi Zhanju who entered the monastery in 1790. So they are probably from early 1800's.

If you see performances of Chaoyangquan and Zhaoyangquan you will notice almost identical structure and sequence, but obvious differences in strategy which their names allude to. Chaoyang, meaning 'Facing the Sun' has straight forward attacks, out in the open with nothing hidden as if 'in the sun'. Zhaoyang, meaning 'Bright Sun' has a lot of two-hand, three-limb, simultaneous high-low attacks used to deceive and cover, as if the opponent's eyes are pierced by the 'bright sun' and can't see the attacks clearly.

Chaoyangquan was created first. Then Shi Zhanju altered the strategy into the more rude Zhaoyangquan set.

[sha0lin1]

Hey LFJ

My Master told me that Chaoyang was created by an emperors daughter about 800 years ago while she was studying at Shaolin, ever heard of that one?

[LFJ]

Ha, no! Haven't heard that one. It sounds like part of a plot in an old Shaolin movie from the 70's. Ever see Shaolin Temple Strikes Back?

[GeneChing]

My understanding is that creation myth refers to one of two Emperor's daughters.

The first is Princess Minglian, daughter of Emperor Liang Wudi (502-549 CE). She was Bodhidharma's female disciple. She took the Buddhist name Zhuanyun and is considered by many as the first Chinese Buddhist nun.

The second was Princess Yongtai, daughter of Emperor Xuanwu (500-515 CE). She became abbess of the nunnery that was built on site of Zhuanyun's hut. This, of course, is known today as Yongtai Nunnery, which is in the foothills near Shaolin Temple.

There's more on Yongtai Nunnery here: Yongtai Girls Wushu School (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=54156).

[RenDaHai]

I haven't heard that one either!

The forms can't be that old looking at them, but he name could be.

Chaoyang/Zhaoyang Quan as they are commonly practised are as LFJ said very similar sets with a couple of modifications.

However there is also a San Lu Zhao Yang Quan unrelated to the popular set. It is long and contains good technique and is unmistakably Shaolin. The sect this was practised in also used the popular form above but referred to it as 'GuanChao' Quan (Tide watching form?).

So in total there are 4 forms in this family. (5 if you count the variation Chao/Zhao)

I practice the common form and I have a book which contains the second road of the SanLu Zhaoyang, and have seen bits of the others, but they are exceptionally rare and may well exist in this one sect only. All 4 (Zhaoyang) were passed down by Shi Degen last century.

Their could well be others, when I asked my old master about Zhaoyang Quan he performed a few moves I'd never seen in the others......

I will ask again when I can.

[LFJ]

My understanding is that creation myth refers to one of two Emperor's daughters.

The first is Princess Minglian, daughter of Emperor Liang Wudi (502-549 CE). She was Bodhidharma's female disciple. She took the Buddhist name Zhuanyun and is considered by many as the first Chinese Buddhist nun.

The second was Princess Yongtai, daughter of Emperor Xuanwu (500-515 CE). She became abbess of the nunnery that was built on site of Zhuanyun's hut. This, of course, is known today as Yongtai Nunnery, which is in the foothills near Shaolin Temple.

There's more on Yongtai Nunnery here: Yongtai Girls Wushu School (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=54156).

Well, I know of these princesses, and that Yongtai mastered the Shaolin arts, but at that time the material wasn't nearly as sophisticated. Never heard any story of either of them creating Chaoyangquan, which is quite impossible.

But I think you've confused a couple characters here. In fact, the history of the Yongtai Monastery follows the stories of three princesses- Zhuanyun, Minglian, and Yongtai. Minglian's Dharma-name was Zongchi (Zhuanyun was a different person).

The first Chinese Buddhist Nun, Princess Zhuanyun, was the daughter of Northern Wei Dynasty Emperor Wencheng, who built a small hut to practice the Dharma prior to Chan/Bodhidharma's arrival in China. Next to her small hut, later named Zhuanyun Convent, there was built the Minglian Monastery which was the forerunning site of the present day Yongtai Monastery.

Full history here: Yongtai Monastery || The Shaolin Nunnery (http://shaolinchancity.blogspot.com/2009/05/yongtai-monastery-shaolin-nunnery.html)

[sha0lin1]

Well, I know of these princesses, and that Yongtai mastered the Shaolin arts, but at that time the material wasn't nearly as sophisticated. Never heard any story of either of them creating Chaoyangquan, which is quite impossible.

But I think you've confused a couple characters here. In fact, the history of the Yongtai Monastery follows the stories of three princesses- Zhuanyun, Minglian, and Yongtai. Minglian's Dharma-name was Zongchi (Zhuanyun was a different person).

The first Chinese Buddhist Nun, Princess Zhuanyun, was the daughter of Northern Wei Dynasty Emperor Wencheng, who built a small hut to practice the Dharma prior to Chan/Bodhidharma's arrival in China. Next to her small hut, later named Zhuanyun Convent, there was built the Minglian Monastery which was the forerunning site of the present day Yongtai Monastery.

Full history here: Yongtai Monastery || The Shaolin Nunnery (http://shaolinchancity.blogspot.com/2009/05/yongtai-monastery-shaolin-nunnery.html)

Thanks you have jogged my memory. It was Zhuanyun who he told me created Chaoyang Quan.

[LFJ]

Thanks you have jogged my memory. It was Zhuanyun who he told me created Chaoyang Quan.

Well, as she was the daughter of Emperor Wencheng (440-465) she would have been around at the very early years of Shaolin. There's simply no way something like Chaoyangquan is over 1500 years old.

It having been created by Shi Zhanju a couple hundred years ago is far more likely, and there's documentation for that as well.

Of the three princesses, only Yongtai is said to have trained in the Shaolin fighting arts (what simple bit there was at the time).

[sha0lin1]

Well you know, legends are legends and that is about it. They make interesting stories though.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

One thing to think about, is that there may very well be a wide difference between the creation of the style itself, and the creation of its forms. It could very well be that the style existed as lose techniques used in a common strategy of footwork, positioning and body method, hundreds of years before the forms were developed.

I think that many times, what we call the development if the style, is just when the forms were codified. All the sets created when the Abbot Fu Ju was documenting the Song Military arts is an example.

We tend to think those styles were created at that time, but in reality they go back countless generation before that.

[GeneChing]

My bad. :o

Well, I know of these princesses, and that Yongtai mastered the Shaolin arts, but at that time the material wasn't nearly as sophisticated. Never heard any story of either of them creating Chaoyangquan, which is quite impossible. We're talking creation myth here. Most all kung fu creation myths are apocryphal. It's just like the Bodhidharma creation myth; While the facts may be incongruous, that doesn't invalidate the attribution. There's an underlying reason why such myths are created, and there in lies a special kernel of Shaolin culture and lore.

[LFJ]

We're talking creation myth here. Most all kung fu creation myths are apocryphal. It's just like the Bodhidharma creation myth; While the facts may be incongruous, that doesn't invalidate the attribution. There's an underlying reason why such myths are created, and there in lies a special kernel of Shaolin culture and lore.

So what do you presume the underlying reason for these creation myths might be?

In many cases, attributing something to Bodhidharma makes it sound more credible and helps it become more widespread, whether it's martial arts material, or Buddhist scripture.

For example, there is a commentary on the Heart Sutra in Chinese that is attributed to Bodhidharma. The only thing is, the commentary uses the version of the Heart Sutra that was written by Xuanzang who—oops!—came about 100 years after Bodhidharma.

But then we have creation myths such as Xiaohongquan & Dahongquan being created by a pair of father and son refugees surnamed 'Hong', who after being taken in and cared for by the Shaolin monks gifted them these two sets. But the particular Xiaohongquan and Dahongquan sets being referred to are not even related.

It would seem to me that such myths come from people who really have no idea about the actual history. It serves no practical purpose, but to maybe throw people off, but why?

One of the greatest throw-off ideas I've heard was the creation of a female character named Yim Wingcheun whose name cleverly admonishes followers to orally pass on the art in secret so as to leave no trace of its origin. The practical purpose of this was to hide from the Qing government.

[jeoge]

Interesting post:D

[GeneChing]

So what do you presume the underlying reason for these creation myths might be?
To be honest, I've never really given it much thought as I've never learned this form. I'm interested in any insights those of you that practice have upon Zhuanyun as a mythic creator.

I don't see most creation myths as an effort to throw off outsiders. That's very fanqing fuming (反清復明) and while I'm sure it exists on some level, I find most of the attributions are to honor the creator. Did you ever read my article The Rod of the First Patriarch: Monk Shi Decheng Reveals Shaolin's Tamo Cane in the Shaolin Special 2005 (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=590)? In it, my master confirmed my opinion that such attributions were simply "named so by the people just trying to show respect."

A lot of people will also say it attributions to legends was just advertising, and to some degree it was, only that advertising back then wasn't nearly the same as it is today. The greatest virus of modern technology is advertising. However, back then, back when these forms were fresh, a attribution to Zhuanyun probably didn't win that many more students than one to Tamo. Actually, this discussion has peaked my interest a tad, as Zhuanyun is a really interesting figure to attribute as a creator, which just has to beg that question - why?

There's that whole ambiguity about Chaoyang (朝阳 - see Shaolin Gong Fu – A Course in Traditional Forms (http://www.martialartsmart.com/bsl-115.html) where it is translated as 'sunny form') versus Zhaoyang (昭阳 - see Shaolin chaoyang quan by Shi Deyang (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSz4XHF9Upk)), which as LFJ astutely recalled, has been discussed on the Luohan Quan thread (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=962132&highlight=chaoyang#post962132). The character chao (朝) can also be pronounced as 'zhao'. It can mean 'morning'. This sort of ambiguity isn't at all uncommon in the martial arts, especially given that many of the influences on Shaolin are from folk masters who aren't always literate. It's that classic game of Chinese whispers. Is it the same set or, through the sketchy transmission, has it evolved into something else? Not that something else would be necessarily invalid. That would be akin to saying mammals are invalid amphibians because they evolved.

But that doesn't quite address why Zhuanyun might be attributed as a creator. I have a few theories but it's all conjecture and am very open to discussion. One theory is that the yang is the same yang as in yin yang - the 'male' essence, light and sun. To attribute this to a female creator strikes a poetic balance - the harmony of yin and yang. I have this other rather sketchy theory about Yongtai Nunnery, which is noted for its sunsets and how that would be balancing with the dawn allusion in the name Chaoyang. That's pretty tenuous however.

Note that these are just offhand opinions, just for discussion's sake, as I've not really researched this particular form at all. Anyone else got anything?

[LFJ]

Well, this is the first I've heard of it or anything being attributed to Zhuanyun. Wonder if Sha0lin1's shifu also told a story to it, or just named her as the creator.

As my post #2 (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1166786&postcount=2) states, the meaning and reason for the two names Chaoyang and Zhaoyang (Facing/Exposed to the Sun & Bright Sun) have to do with their fight strategies.

Btw, the character 昭 can only be pronounced 'zhao', but although the character 朝 as you said, Gene, can be pronounced as either 'chao' or 'zhao', as I have seen it is always pronounced 'chao' with this particular set. So the meaning is 'facing' or 'exposed to', rather than 'morning'.

Although, I've also heard it explained as 'morning sun' referring to a certain posture in the set with arms stretching above the head, as if one just woke up. The posture mimics one of the 18 Arhats, Panthaka, who is always depicted in this posture as he was just coming out of meditation on a mountain facing the morning sun. Well, there you go.. 'facing the morning sun'. It could be either 'facing' or 'morning'. But anyway, it's always pronounced 'chao' with this set, for 'facing the sun'.

This makes me yawn:

http://mi-le-fo.thetempleguy.com/figures/images/Arhat_04_A.jpg

[sha0lin1]

Well, this is the first I've heard of it or anything being attributed to Zhuanyun. Wonder if Sha0lin1's shifu also told a story to it, or just named her as the creator.

As my post #2 (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1166786&postcount=2) states, the meaning and reason for the two names Chaoyang and Zhaoyang (Facing/Exposed to the Sun & Bright Sun) have to do with their fight strategies.

Btw, the character 昭 can only be pronounced 'zhao', but although the character 朝 as you said, Gene, can be pronounced as either 'chao' or 'zhao', as I have seen it is always pronounced 'chao' with this particular set. So the meaning is 'facing' or 'exposed to', rather than 'morning'.

Although, I've also heard it explained as 'morning sun' referring to a certain posture in the set with arms stretching above the head, as if one just woke up. The posture mimics one of the 18 Arhats, Panthaka, who is always depicted in this posture as he was just coming out of meditation on a mountain facing the morning sun. Well, there you go.. 'facing the morning sun'. It could be either 'facing' or 'morning'. But anyway, it's always pronounced 'chao' with this set, for 'facing the sun'.

This makes me yawn:

http://mi-le-fo.thetempleguy.com/figures/images/Arhat_04_A.jpg

No, the only story he told was that she was the daughter of an emperor who had come to study at Shaolin and while there created the form. He translated it as "Morning Sun" fist. Could be as Gene has said that the attribution of her creating the form could have been to honor her as the emperors daughter or maybe the emperor himself. When I learned this form he did not speak as good english as he does today, I will revisit this next time I see him.

[bawang]

chaoyang means uppercut.

[GeneChing]

As my post #2 (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1166786&postcount=2) states, the meaning and reason for the two names Chaoyang and Zhaoyang (Facing/Exposed to the Sun & Bright Sun) have to do with their fight strategies.
Can you elaborate on this a little? How exactly does the fight strategy relate to facing the sun?

I love that Panthaka reference. That's just the sort of thing I enjoy about Shaolin and exactly my point with creation myths. It's a gateway to studying Buddhism. Time to research Panthaka too. In Xiao Luohan (Part III) Performed by Shi Guolin from our 2001 November/December issue (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=142), I gave some cursory descriptions of the 18 Luohan. I described Panthaka as "Depicted seatd, often holding a scroll or subduing a dragon. Retains 1300 arhats." Of course, that was 2001, when the internet was still young (wikipedia was just launched that year) so there weren't near as many resources as there are now. If memory serves, I pulled those descriptions from distilling a few books I had in my library.

[LFJ]

Can you elaborate on this a little? How exactly does the fight strategy relate to facing the sun?

Well, perhaps "Exposed to the Sun" is a better translation. From my post #2:

Chaoyang, meaning 'Facing the Sun' (Exposed to the Sun) has straight forward attacks, out in the open with nothing hidden as if 'in the sun'.

Zhaoyang, meaning 'Bright Sun' has a lot of two-hand, three-limb, simultaneous high-low attacks used to deceive and cover, as if the opponent's eyes are pierced by the 'bright sun' and can't see the attacks clearly.

So you see, the two sets are like Yin and Yang. One is more passive and "honorable" fighting, while the other is more aggressive and deceitful.

You can see the difference clearly when comparing the first section of the two sets. Below in Shi Deyang's performance of Zhaoyangquan you see simultaneous low kicks and sneak attacks, and a low kick creeps in below the double spear hands action before turning around.

In Shi Deqi's performance of Chaoyangquan you don't have any of those sneak attacks using multiple limbs to attack at once, and the double spear hand is just a double spear hand with no low kick thrown in below it.

There are other differences throughout the sets, but Shi Deyang altered his for the video, so it's lacking a lot of detail in parts. You can still see it though.

(A bit of history is explained at the beginning of Shi Deyang's video. It says Qing Dynasty monk Shi Zhanju created Zhaoyangquan based on Chaoyangquan [which he also created], after reconsidering the fight strategy.)

Zhaoyangquan - Shi Deyang (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcNmEXlNlAQ)
Chaoyangquan - Shi Deqi (http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTcyNjkwMDIw.html)

[Xian]

Hey LFJ,
The man in the second video is Chen Jun Jie, he is 31th Generation not Shi Deci.I researched him because I was looking for his Qi Xing Quan.



Kind regards,
Xian

[LFJ]

Hey LFJ,
The man in the second video is Chen Jun Jie, he is 31th Generation not Shi Deci.I researched him because I was looking for his Qi Xing Quan.



Kind regards,
Xian

Yes, I know who he is. I didn't say Shi Deci (释德慈), but Shi Deqi (释德启). That is Chen Junjie's Dharma name.

[Xian]

Yes, I know who he is. I didn't say Shi Deci (释德慈), but Shi Deqi (释德启). That is Chen Junjie's Dharma name.

I am sorry my bad,I really thought I have read Deci and that at least two times...


Kind regards,
Xian

[charliegreens]

I learned the form in the video from Shi Deyang as Chao Yang Quan and the form in the video of Shi Deqi (a little different) as Zhao Yang Quan. It's confusing to me, because two former monks I know told me Shi Deyang's form is called Chao Yang Quan.

[LFJ]

I learned the form in the video from Shi Deyang as Chao Yang Quan and the form in the video of Shi Deqi (a little different) as Zhao Yang Quan. It's confusing to me, because two former monks I know told me Shi Deyang's form is called Chao Yang Quan.

Well, a lot of people in Dengfeng don't have the most fantastic Mandarin and aren't terribly literate. It also takes knowing the history and concept of the styles to know the correct way 朝阳 should be pronounced. But 昭阳 has only one possible pronunciation anyway.

[RenDaHai]

I'll just relay what ShiYongWen said once.

That the san lo Zhaoyang quan is the real shaolin Zhaoyang quan. The other form is part of the family but called GuanChao Quan individually. ShiDegen taught This form extensively and referred to it as Zhaoyang quan. However when he taught the san lu Zhaoyang he admitted that this was the real Zhaoyang and the other was called guanchao quan.

As to the Chaoyang variation... I do not know.

My assumption is generally that there was a substyle called 'Zhaoyang quan' and that all its individual forms had individual names as well as being called Zhaoyang quan. The first part is probably the popular form and because it is popular it has developed into the two distinct variations. The larger san lu set is still practiced by Shi Yong Wen but whether he taught it I do not know and I haven't heard of anyone else practice it.

I am still investigating the style and will ask my old master about it when I get a chance.



On a side note...



So you see, the two sets are like Yin and Yang. One is more passive and "honorable" fighting, while the other is more aggressive and deceitful.



We often refer to 'bright' strikes in Shaolin as obvious and straight attacks with no deception as you say. But it is not always so honourable. The artist knows his attack is obvious but obvious as it is it must still be defended, and often it will insight this defence on purpose to destroy it. In this case the skill is in combination. There is another type of strike referred to as bright in shaolin and it is the skill of striking slowly. There is a threshold speed of the hand, below which the opponent does not interpret it as an attack. However even slowly if you strike the correct target with the correct action the strike can be damaging because the opponent allows himself to be hit without defence. This is a very difficult skill to use because it is hard to move calmly under stress. This is also referred to as 'White tiger scoops out heart' (as opposed to black which is deceptive).

[bawang]

chaoyang means uppercut. it is a codeword from longfist. chaoyang as in "tanma chaoyang" of xiaohongquan.

you guys are never gonna figure out the codewords if you get milked and only know the techniques as "horse stance punch block" "bow stance push palm".


chan is simplicity. by overcomplicating things to satisfy your own ego you forsake chan buddhism.

[RenDaHai]

chaoyang means uppercut. it is a codeword from longfist. chaoyang as in "tanma chaoyang" of xiaohongquan.

you guys are never gonna figure out the codewords if you get milked and only know the techniques as "horse stance punch block" "bow stance push palm".


chan is simplicity. by overcomplicating things to satisfy your own ego you forsake chan buddhism.

Interesting..... Kind of like ChongTianPao.

Chaoyang quan does contain this technique....

[bawang]

they are the same thing.

chaoyang is an older obsolete term. older names conceal the meaning while new names embellish it.

[wenshu]

Interesting..... Kind of like ChongTianPao.

Chaoyang quan does contain this technique....

Chang Hu Xin Yi Men.

[RenDaHai]

chaoyang is an older obsolete term. older names conceal the meaning while new names embellish it.

Its true. The name often tells the application in a poetic manner...

I have learned a lot more from my forms by studying the names of techniques. Often the name actually refers to the consequence of the action and the strategy of the technique rather than the specific movement. So two outwardly different looking techniques may have the same name because they work on the opponent in the same manner. Similarly a seemingly identical technique may be called a different name even within the same form. This is because the sequence of the form is designed (if the form is old) so that every technique may be used in combination with both its preceding and following technique (as well as individually) and so the action of a standard technique may be very different within this combination.

This is part of the importance of learning a form as well as drilling individual techniques.
For example the technique 'Jingang Dao Dui' appears across the whole spectrum of Kung Fu although when used alone it is not a fantastic technique, in combination it can be devastating.

[RenDaHai]

Chang Hu Xin Yi Men.

Indeed! Changhuxinyimen opens with this technique. It is a major technique in Xiao Hong Quan where it is combined with XuanFengJiao. In Fact it appears in a great many forms.

In Zhaoyang it is combined with Hangdichui in an unusual manner. Often the uppercut comes first the idea being by guarding or being hit the opponent lowers his head slightly which brings it into the range of the HangDiChui (earth punch) technique. This is called FanTianDi (to turn a stamp, like the stamps chinese use on their art). HOwever in Zhaoyang it is used unusually in the reverse combination, first the ground punch then the uppercut. This is much harder to understand.....

The technique in Zhaoyang is different to Chongtianpao as it exists deliberately in this combination and the uppercut is to a lower target as opposed to a higher one.

[LFJ]

Are we just talking about the particular technique or is it Bawang's position that this style is named for its uppercut? Technique terminology is important and interesting, but of the style as a whole the uppercut doesn't seem very significant and it would be illogical to name it after this one common technique. Hopefully he's talking about individual technique terminology or just trolling again.

[LFJ]

HOwever in Zhaoyang it is used unusually in the reverse combination, first the ground punch then the uppercut. This is much harder to understand.....

The technique in Zhaoyang is different to Chongtianpao as it exists deliberately in this combination and the uppercut is to a lower target as opposed to a higher one.

The application possibilities depend on the particular posture. Some do the downward punch straight down to the side or front, some do it angled more 45° downward to the front.

In the forward angled version, the strike drives into the opponents center of gravity, collapsing their hips, causing their body to buckle forward extending their head and often raising their chin, which prepares for the logical following technique in the uppercut.

When it is done straight down on the side, it is a defense against an arm drag or wrist grab from the side. When the opponent pulls you rather than resisting you go with it "punching" your captured arm downward and dropping your stance, which will pull the opponent down as you slam your shoulder and body into them. There is also a stomp there to crush feet or cause disturbance at the same time. Your other hand is next to the shoulder as a guard or can be used to assist pulling the opponent downward, which will then create a similar preparation for the uppercut as in the previous application.

[RenDaHai]

The application possibilities depend on the particular posture. Some do the downward punch straight down to the side or front, some do it angled more 45° downward to the front.

In the forward angled version, the strike drives into the opponents center of gravity, collapsing their hips, causing their body to buckle forward extending their head and often raising their chin, which prepares for the logical following technique in the uppercut.

When it is done straight down on the side, it is a defense against an arm drag or wrist grab from the side. When the opponent pulls you rather than resisting you go with it "punching" your captured arm downward and dropping your stance, which will pull the opponent down as you slam your shoulder and body into them. There is also a stomp there to crush feet or cause disturbance at the same time. Your other hand is next to the shoulder as a guard or can be used to assist pulling the opponent downward, which will then create a similar preparation for the uppercut as in the previous application.

The application to the side is a different technique with a similar looking posture, however it is always done ce shen, that is to say with your body side on to the opponent and side on to the line of the form. It is a powerful move with strong breaking and qin na applications. However when done zheng shen (square on to the opponent, as in Zhaoyang) I would assume it is the technique with the hand in front of the body as Shaolin forms in almost all cases are played along a straight line (the opponent is along this line).

With the angled 45 degree technique what you say would indeed be the correct assumption, however this technique again is a different move and a variation of the qixing movement. The technique in Zhaoyang is striking towards the earth and in front of the body. The punch HangDiChui/ZhuaDiPao is a GuoDian deng zuo, that is to say it forms a circular trajectory and can turn into a strike at any point along its trajectory. It would not target the bladder initially but could indeed be used to hit it if the opponent evaded the initial target. In which case the uppercut could indeed be a follow.

But it is still a little strange in this combination and not an entirely comfortable technique. Why? Since although HangDiChui relies on the HenZhuo stamp for power, ChongTianPao relies on moving from a wide stance to a smaller one which it does not get the opportunity to do in this case. I.e Standing up on the spot is not powerful, where as moving from a wider and side on stance to standing up square is very powerful. See what I mean? SO the reverse version is much more powerful and comfortable.

[LFJ]

I think most people tend to do it with the hangdichui to the front, but at least Shi Deyang always does it with the fist to the side. It's the same posture as in his Dahongquan, where again most people go to the front, but his is to the side.

[bawang]

Are we just talking about the particular technique or is it Bawang's position that this style is named for its uppercut? Technique terminology is important and interesting, but of the style as a whole the uppercut doesn't seem very significant and it would be illogical to name it after this one common technique. Hopefully he's talking about individual technique terminology or just trolling again.

hong quan is a technique. qixing is a technique. tongbei is a technique. changhu is a technique. tan tui is a technique.

older styles are named after the favorite techniques of the founder.