Long Time Student Leaving The School

[SteveLau]

A real incident that happened in Hong Kong in the last couple of years inspires me to start this thread. Suppose a student has decided to leave the school, and shut tie with it completely. How should he do so? If his leaving of the school is a fact, what should the school operator do then? In the case I mention above, the student told his leave and the detail in a local magazine. Later on, the school operator announced to the public that they dismissed the student. The action of the school operator looks familiar to me. It has a name called saving face. We find it happens sometimes in the work place. An employee resigns first. Then, his employer gives him a termination letter.

P.S. Name of person and organization involved in the case will not be provided.


Regards,

KC
Hong Kong

[Shaolin]

Why does anyone have to "do" anything. There's no need for an over dramatic exit. If the student wishes to leave for whatever reason he/she should inform the head instructor of their departure and then quietly leave. The end.

[Neeros]

Say "So long, and thanks for all the fish" ??

Seriously though, when I quit kenpo I simply gave the teacher my thanks and never showed up again.

[YouKnowWho]

Old Chinese saying said,

- "There exist no banquet that will not finish".
- "There exist no parents that will not die."

People will separate apart from each other soon or later. 100 years from today, we won't even exist on this planet. Anything that we think it's important today, it's not really that important after all.

[bawang]

if your school can fight you will not have any of these problems.

[Brule]

said student and school watch too many chop socky flicks. once again, the old mysticism of kung fu student teacher relationship rears it ugly lion's head for all to see.:rolleyes:

[GeneChing]

HK still maintains many notions of Confucian etiquette, and if you are there, you must abide by them. Here in the SF Bay Area, it's more mercenary. There's constants shifts within schools, even with the instructors. This can be attributed to the fact that there are so many PRC immigrants and the post-CR mentality doesn't build ties in the same way. Plus there's such diversity, so it's not uncommon to find a Muay Thai group within a kung fu school (which was the case with my school for a spell) or MMA classes in a karate dojo (which seems ubiquitous and often illegitimate). We're like ronin over here.

Actually, HK is probably the only place left where this might be an issue.... maybe ROC too. :rolleyes:

[IronFist]

Why does anyone have to "do" anything. There's no need for an over dramatic exit. If the student wishes to leave for whatever reason he/she should inform the head instructor of their departure and then quietly leave. The end.

This.

Who cares?

Oh, and what Gene Ching said probably applies, too.

[TenTigers]

agreed. leave quietly and respectfully. Don't burn your bridges, unless the circumstances warrant this. Try to make it a win-win situation.

[bawang]

HK still maintains many notions of Confucian etiquette, and if you are there, you must abide by them.

you got it wrong, gene. how is making a public mess confucian? kung fu people in san fran are more confucian than hkers. theres no weird flamboyant drama. confucianism is not gossip and drama, its the lack of it.

hong kong? confucianism? it was founded by a colony of prostitutes. cmon man, cmon.

[Lebaufist]

you got it wrong, gene. how is making a public mess confucian? kung fu people in san fran are more confucian than hkers. theres no weird flamboyant drama. confucianism is not gossip and drama, its the lack of it.

hong kong? confucianism? it was founded by a colony of prostitutes. cmon man, cmon.You made me LOL.

[bawang]

in early years hong kong was a barren rock with the exception of over ten thousand prostitutes near the harbours.

frankly i dont care about any new that comes out of hong kong, especially kung fu. i dont care about some lame hong ga/wing chun drama.



the only hong kong martial artist with honor is leung ting.

[Drake]

My only question is...

"Are you going to charge me for the whole month, or are you going to prorate me for the days before I quit?"

[A Joyful Proces]

Is this what happened with Chen Kuan Tai & Chan Sau Chung? Sad, that was a long association severed.

[GeneChing]

you got it wrong, gene. how is making a public mess confucian? kung fu people in san fran are more confucian than hkers. theres no weird flamboyant drama. confucianism is not gossip and drama, its the lack of it.

hong kong? confucianism? it was founded by a colony of prostitutes. cmon man, cmon. It's Confucian constraints that would lead a school and student to react so. Here in SF, we could care less. Want to leave and go some where else? Go for it. Our doors swing both ways (It's SF after all ;)). Heck, for many schools, it's a revolving door. No one here would even consider making a public announcement and no journal would bother to publish it. Except maybe here on the forum. :p

[SteveLau]

It's Confucian constraints that would lead a school and student to react so. Here in SF, we could care less. Want to leave and go some where else? Go for it. Our doors swing both ways (It's SF after all ;)).


Hey, it looks like San Francisco is a place with high freedom! It lives up to the Amercian Spirit to the top. Thanks to most of the forum members who have responded to this thread. The heart in the reason that the long time student disassociated from the school is he started up a club of his own, and began to teach martial art some time ago. So my next question is that when it is alright for a student starts to teach? Besides he has the qualification to do so, does he need to be approved by his school operator (or his Sifu)? Legality of the matter needs also be considered. Otherwise, law suit might occur.



Regards,

KC
Hong Kong

[SPJ]

Old Chinese saying said,

- "There exist no banquet that will not finish".
- "There exist no parents that will not die."

People will separate apart from each other soon or later. 100 years from today, we won't even exist on this planet. Anything that we think it's important today, it's not really that important after all.

yes all banquets will end.

all parties will also end.

the first student or disciple will stay on with the teacher. And one day he will carry on the school name.

the last or closing door student will stay on and take care of retiring teacher both in his health and financially.

the rest of the students may leave anytime they want and move on.

more students move on and open more schools in more places

that is how your school or your teacher's teachings expand or propagate.

etc etc.

:cool:

[David Jamieson]

That face saving game is for small minded folk. It has always been so. The for real types let their merit stand alone. BTDT GTTS. lol

Bonus points if you learned about human nature from it. :)

[mawali]

Despite the name of the Dao (it has no name) wouldn't it make sense for both to go their separate ways and acknowledge their Paths have diverged. Isn't that honesty, acknowledging reality and the skill in differentiating compulson and forced adherece to an apparent failed orthodoxy.

[GeneChing]

Hey, it looks like San Francisco is a place with high freedom! It lives up to the Amercian Spirit to the top. lol. Indeed. It has it's plusses and minuses for sure.

Traditionally, you're not supposed to start teaching until your master gives you permission. However, that's one tradition that has collapsed here in America. There's no legal obligation that I'm aware of - but there is an ethical one. If some one is teaching a traditional art with out the permission of his or her master, there's an intrinsic contradiction. Tradition by definition is based on the handing down of something from generation to generation, so it's hard to claim being a traditional teacher without that link.

[SteveLau]

GeneChing, well said. It is good to follow the tradition in general.



I have some thought on the question of when it is alright for a student starts to teach in the last few days. Legally, an instructor needs to be certified by the school of them he has learnt the art. Otherwise, frauldulent charge might be pressed on him for faking. There might be other legal requirements too, depends on the subject being taught and the type of school being started. I think that is a key of the question. Today, even some traditional schools are systemically operated. They have executive committee to carry out their daily operation and planning. They hold regular examination for their students. Not only they have certification for students who have achieved master level. They might even have training course and certification for would be instructor too. Well, if a student holds such certificate, then there would be less chance for argument to occur when he and his school split up. Because there is less basis to argue about.


KC
Hong Kong

[GeneChing]

Legally, an instructor needs to be certified by the school of them he has learnt the art. There's no legal requirement to open a martial arts school in America. There's no standards for certification, no national governing agency, no regulations, nothing. I suppose there's a potential lawsuit if fraudulent claims are made, but you seldom hear of such a case.

[ngokfei]

so true gene.

the only thing that can happen is like what Sin the and that big scandal lawsuit with bikram yoga.

Even though individuals learned these methods they seem to be owned/copywrite/,etc. and as such are not permitted to teach them without permission/franchise agreement, etc.

Hell I should of thought of that before I created 3 beginner sets that are now being taught - hmmm$$$:D

[Ao Qin]

:)Youknowwho...

Great post - thank you!

AQ

[SteveLau]

Now we are getting close to the bottom of the matter. So what factors should be considered in giving permission to a student to teach. Right off my head, I would regard the followings in the order of importance:

(1) Goals of teaching
(2) Teaching skill
(3) Ability to train students up to master level


The first one and is the most important one is related to the mentality of the would be teacher. All these factors are somewhat related to each other.

Any input?



Regards,

KC
Hong Kong