Sabatoge at the Great Lakes Kung Fu Championships

[ginosifu]

First off I would like to say that our Great Lakes Kung Fu Championships was a great success and I had a lot of fun judging SC. However, there was some attempts at sabatoging our event.

A couple of weeks ago my teacher was contacted by the Ohio Athletic Commision. This group usually runs all the boxing events and normally groups would have to go thru them to hire judges / Doctors / rules and regulation etc etc. Lately this group has been now trying to take over San Shou and the Martial Arts events.

One of their representatives contacted my teacher wanting him to use them.... blah blah bla. My teacher asked how did they know about us he replied with an email sent by a fellow kung fu teacher. The Shifu is Nick Scrima and here is the email he sent.

----- Forwarded Message ----
From: "Profato, Bernie" <Bernie.Profato@aco.ohio.gov>
To: "jervinsifu@att.net" <jervinsifu@att.net>
Sent: Wed, April 4, 2012 9:31:29 AM
Subject: FW: San Shou full contact in Ohio

Bernie Profato
Ohio Athletic Commission
Office: 330-797-2556
Fax- 330-7972559

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Nick Scrima [nick.scrima@worldsandaleague.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2012 3:41 PM
To: Profato, Bernie
Subject: San Shou full contact in Ohio


Is the below event supervised or sanctioned by the Ohio Athletic Commission?


04-14-2012 (2 days)
Great Lakes Kung Fu Championships and Shaui Chiao San Shou Nationals
All the Kung Fu Forms and Weapons Divisions you want, Internal Forms and Weapons Continuous Light Contact Sparring, Shuai Chiao, San Shou Full Contact
For more information, contact: Sifu John Ervin
Phone: 216.431.4991
Event Address: 6401 St. Clair Ave
Cleveland, OH, 44103 USA
Online: jervinsifu@att.net -

We ended up having to shut down our San Shou divisions. Coincidentally Nick Scrima had a tournament in Pittsburg on the Same day?

My question to you is...

Do you think this was unethical approach to tournaments held on the same day?

Why did not Nick Just call and ask my teacher? (we have known each other for over 20 years).

Morally was this good kung fu?

Your thoughts

ginosifu

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well...what are the rules for having a full contact event in Ohio ?

It's not good to read into the motives of others without speaking to them first.

[ginosifu]

Recently there has been no governing body controlling San Shou. Just with in the last year or so the Ohio Athletic Commission has been trying to stick the foot in the door and gain control.

If Nick Scrima wanted to know what we were doing.. and if we were connected to the OAC, why didnt he just call? I have known him for 20 years... and my teacher even more?

ginosifu

[sanjuro_ronin]

Recently there have been no governing body controlling San Shou. Just with in the last year or so the Ohio Athletic Commission has been trying to stick the foot in the door and gain control.

If Nick Scrima wanted to know what we were doing.. and if we were connected to the OAC, why didnt he just call? I have known him for 20 years... and my teacher even more?

ginosifu

Benefit of the doubt dude, you may be right or you may be wrong.
Best to give the benefit of the doubt, no?

[ginosifu]

Benefit of the doubt dude, you may be right or you may be wrong.
Best to give the benefit of the doubt, no?

Yes, I understand, Nick Scrima is a well respected Eagle Claw and Mi Tsung Shifu. And yes you have to give some benefit of the doubt. I did train with Nick for a bit here in Cleveland until left for Florida and he is a nice guy.

However, he was sponsoring a tournament the same day in Pittsburg. We also had a fellow Shifu call him and speak with about this and he stated that Nick was possibly sending some fighters and that he was concerned about our safety protocals?

Fisrt off.... No Promoter of an event in Pittsburg is going to send any fighters to a different event in another city. That is is stupid, I know I would never do that. Secondly.... since we have known each other for over 20 years.... shouldn't he give us the benefit and call us and ask what we have going on?

Sounds kinda underhanded to me.

ginosifu

[ShaolinDan]

I knew that name sounded familiar...Eagle Claw guy, different family, but I think friendly with at least one of my sihings (I've watched youtube vids of my sihing performing at one of Scrima's school's grand openings).

Guess I'll keep my mouth shut.

Anyway, sorry to hear about that Gino, that's a bummer.

[bawang]

i dont care about your old lady drama.

[MasterKiller]

The Boxing Commission SHOULD regulate San Shou to protect the fighters.

It's ridiculous holding full contact fights WITHOUT the boxing commission overseeing it. I refuse to take any fighters to Taiji Legacy (Legends of Kung FU) because the boxing commission is not involved.

With the boxing commission,

all fighters are tested for HIV and HEP B and C.
an insurance bond is posted by the promoter
medical staffing is ENFORCED
Fighters have to have a physical before fighting
Weight limites are enforced
taping and gloves are inspected
fighters are escorted to and from the arena for their protection
suspensions/bans are allotted/upheld for bad conduct (for coaches and fighters)
fight records are legitimate to prevent sand bagging opponents

Without the boxing commission, it's a crap shoot.

Basically, Kung Fu tournaments want you to pay $80 to $100 to fight without offering you any benefits or insurance.

Any other event, you get PAID and all the perks are included.

[wenshu]

http://www.kungfuchampionship.com/

Nick Scrima's organization.

Probably just salty because he has to jump through regulatory hoops and you guys weren't.

Or maybe he's inching in on your turf. In that case I suggest you send a message that Luca Brasi sleeps with the fishes.

Edit. Actually, Scrima's reasoning makes sense. The Pittsburgh tournament didn't have Sanda. Perhaps their was some interest in Sanda and he was going to direct the interested parties to the Ohio tournament and was just doing his due diligence before he made any recommendations. Not quite as dramatic but it makes more sense.

[Orion Paximus]

Imma have to go with MasterKiller here. Also, i've spoken to Nick on several occasions and he seems pretty honest and most importantly, pretty committed to getting CMA the respect it deserves at the national level. Why he didn't contact the organizers directly, who knows, maybe he tried or couldn't find any info. I don't think contacting the commission directly was the best way to go about it.

[David Jamieson]

The Boxing Commission SHOULD regulate San Shou to protect the fighters.

It's ridiculous holding full contact fights WITHOUT the boxing commission overseeing it. I refuse to take any fighters to Taiji Legacy (Legends of Kung FU) because the boxing commission is not involved.

With the boxing commission,

all fighters are tested for HIV and HEP B and C.
an insurance bond is posted by the promoter
medical staffing is ENFORCED
Fighters have to have a physical before fighting
Weight limites are enforced
taping and gloves are inspected
fighters are escorted to and from the arena for their protection
suspensions/bans are allotted/upheld for bad conduct (for coaches and fighters)
fight records are legitimate to prevent sand bagging opponents

Without the boxing commission, it's a crap shoot.

Basically, Kung Fu tournaments want you to pay $80 to $100 to fight without offering you any benefits or insurance.

Any other event, you get PAID and all the perks are included.

This is in fact the correct.

[Robinhood]

Follow the money.

[ginosifu]

The Boxing Commission SHOULD regulate San Shou to protect the fighters.

It's ridiculous holding full contact fights WITHOUT the boxing commission overseeing it. I refuse to take any fighters to Taiji Legacy (Legends of Kung FU) because the boxing commission is not involved.

With the boxing commission,

all fighters are tested for HIV and HEP B and C.
an insurance bond is posted by the promoter
medical staffing is ENFORCED
Fighters have to have a physical before fighting
Weight limites are enforced
taping and gloves are inspected
fighters are escorted to and from the arena for their protection
suspensions/bans are allotted/upheld for bad conduct (for coaches and fighters)
fight records are legitimate to prevent sand bagging opponents

Without the boxing commission, it's a crap shoot.

Basically, Kung Fu tournaments want you to pay $80 to $100 to fight without offering you any benefits or insurance.

Any other event, you get PAID and all the perks are included.

If we as a Kung Fu Orginazation do all the highlighted above (except checking for HIV, HEP and do not pay our fighters), what's the difference? If we provide a safe environment, have REAL doctors on site, provide all proper safety gear (fighters wear our gear which include 14 oz boxing gloves, boxing head gear, chest protector and shin pads), enforce weight limits etc what's the difference?

ginosifu

[ginosifu]

Imma have to go with MasterKiller here. Also, i've spoken to Nick on several occasions and he seems pretty honest and most importantly, pretty committed to getting CMA the respect it deserves at the national level. Why he didn't contact the organizers directly, who knows, maybe he tried or couldn't find any info. I don't think contacting the commission directly was the best way to go about it.

Exactly

I don't disagree what Nick is doing is right or wrong or that he is not help CMA.... I just think he should have contacted the promoter first.

ginosifu

[IronWeasel]

Exactly

I don't disagree what Nick is doing is right or wrong or that he is not help CMA.... I just think he should have contacted the promoter first.

ginosifu



Your event has been publicized for nine months. Scrima tries to put you on the OAC radar TEN days before the event.

By the way...nick Scrima offers Sactioning Services that you can pay for.

You know...if your in a pinch and are running out of time and NEED sactioned because SOMEONE tipped off the OAC.

Verdict: dick move by Nick Scrima

[GLW]

There is a big issue with one part of a previous post :

"fighters wear our gear which include 14 oz boxing gloves, boxing head gear, chest protector and shin pads"

When, as a promoter, you provide the gloves, head gear, chest protector, and shin pads, in essence, you are making a legal claim that the equipment is in condition to do its job.

Having dealt a bit with the legal part of this, what that means is that there is an implied liability that comes with an implied guarantee of the equipment.

This is why so many events mandate the type of equipment required - down to the weight of the gloves, type of shin guard, type of chest or head guard, type of mouth and groin protection...but they more often than not do NOT supply the gear.

If they state what is to be used and do a check, the competitor then assumes the legal liability for the equipment being in good order. This also means that the ring officials do not have to examine their own equipment after each bout.

So, regardless of the issue here, I would suggest that promoters need to be fully aware of the legal implications of their events...and in particular the implied fit for use of equipment.

[Pork Chop]

This is why so many events mandate the type of equipment required - down to the weight of the gloves, type of shin guard, type of chest or head guard, type of mouth and groin protection...but they more often than not do NOT supply the gear.


Maybe we're going to different events, but the only events where I've seen the gear NOT being provided is at kung fu tournaments.

[Pork Chop]

The Boxing Commission SHOULD regulate San Shou to protect the fighters.

It's ridiculous holding full contact fights WITHOUT the boxing commission overseeing it. I refuse to take any fighters to Taiji Legacy (Legends of Kung FU) because the boxing commission is not involved.


This may be conjecture & second-hand information, but my understanding (from coaches that I've talked to) is that in Texas, all of those requirements exist, but the promoter is responsible for footing the bill. PLUS, the promoter has to pay the boxing commission/state athletic commission a "cut" of the gate for "sanctioning." The end result is a huge portion of the gate goes to meeting these requirements and paying the commission - basically nothing left after you factor in renting out the venue.

I was told that this is the reason Saeksan stopped putting on events and it's one of the reasons muay thai is all but dead in Texas (event-wise).

[B-Rad]

Did you contact Nick Scrima about this and ask him why he did it? Just seems like going to the public forum without talking to the other guy first is a good recipe for starting a long lasting feud :p

[ginosifu]

Did you contact Nick Scrima about this and ask him why he did it? Just seems like going to the public forum without talking to the other guy first is a good recipe for starting a long lasting feud :p

Yes we did... He stated that he was possibly sending fighters to our tourney and wanted to see if we had used the OAC. He was concerned about the safety of his fighters.

The problem with his reply is that we have been fellow kung fu teachers for over 20 years and know exactly what each other does and does not. He knew how my teacher runs our tourney... He even has been a judge at many of our tourneys. There is no way he does not know how my teacher runs his tourney.... There is no excuse not to call up front and just ask... "What is going on with San Shou"

ginosifu

[B-Rad]

Ah, sorry, I see you stated that earlier. I misread the first time. Yeah, that's pretty shady. I always hated seeing people that I otherwise respected engage in petty petty behavior. Too many out there overestimate their importance in the grand scheme of things, and like to play politics.

[GeneChing]

Was he ever connected with your event?

[ginosifu]

Was he ever connected with your event?

Yes Nick lived here in Cleveland for a long time. He was the promoter of our tournament for the very first year (1991 or 1992 I forget), after that he left for Florida and my teacher took over the the tournament.

ginosifu

[MasterKiller]

This may be conjecture & second-hand information, but my understanding (from coaches that I've talked to) is that in Texas, all of those requirements exist, but the promoter is responsible for footing the bill. PLUS, the promoter has to pay the boxing commission/state athletic commission a "cut" of the gate for "sanctioning." The end result is a huge portion of the gate goes to meeting these requirements and paying the commission - basically nothing left after you factor in renting out the venue.

I was told that this is the reason Saeksan stopped putting on events and it's one of the reasons muay thai is all but dead in Texas (event-wise).

Yeah, you have to pay them. That's the cost of the doing proper business. It's not a huge portion. I've seen small shows clear 10K easy after all the fees were paid, including travel costs to the fighters and coaches. If they can do it, Taiji Legacy certainly should be able to.

But since Taiji Legacy guts the fighters and makes them pay because they can't sell tickets, it's a losing proposition for them. They don't need spectators because the fighters pay HUGE entry fees. What a joke.

The bottom line is, if you want to play Big Boy sports, you have to conduct yourself like a Big Boy.

[MasterKiller]

If we as a Kung Fu Orginazation do all the highlighted above (except checking for HIV, HEP and do not pay our fighters), what's the difference? If we provide a safe environment, have REAL doctors on site, provide all proper safety gear (fighters wear our gear which include 14 oz boxing gloves, boxing head gear, chest protector and shin pads), enforce weight limits etc what's the difference?

ginosifu

So possibly exposing your fighters to contractable blood born pathogens is an acceptable risk for you? Do you tell fighters that, on top of paying your entry fees and travel costs to get there, they might go home with Hepatitis because it's not worth your time to make sure their opponent was tested?

[ginosifu]

So possibly exposing your fighters to contractable blood born pathogens is an acceptable risk for you? Do you tell fighters that, on top of paying your entry fees and travel costs to get there, they might go home with Hepatitis because it's not worth your time to make sure their opponent was tested?

Here I agree with you... I think maybe I will sit down with my teacher and talk about having HIV and HEP testing added to fighting events.

ginosifu

[Orion Paximus]

Hey, who doesn't have a little hepatitis these days? :D

[GLW]

I did not say that the promoter could NOT supply the required gear.

What I DID say was that when the promoter does supply the gear, there is an implied guarantee that the gear at all times meets the safety requirements.

This can be difficult if the gear is reused. In events where the gear is owned by the promoter and supplied to the competitor, the promoter must make sure that there is an inspection with the competitor when the gear is provided to them. Then, when it is handed back, it must be cleaned and disinfected (blood and other bodily fluids must be removed and the objects need to be sanitized...like a wash down with bleach and then alcohol (alcohol is mainly to remove the bleach smell and residue).

The gear has to be checked for breaks and tears at each point.

One of the issues that ended with the AAU CMA moving away from doing Sanshou events was in part the legal requirements about the "guarantee" of the safety of the provided equipment.

As for Texas, the laws here have pretty much made full contact things die out. The funny thing is that it started no so much out of a desire for a Boxing Commission takeover but due to concerned parents.

Seems that fight clubs were becoming a popular thing at a number of colleges. Some students had some injuries and one of the sets of parents had connections and started a crusade.... voila!...you have new laws. (at least that is the history I was able to track down but there could be more to it).

[YouKnowWho]

my teacher took over the the tournament.

ginosifu, May I ask who is your teacher?

[ginosifu]

ginosifu, May I ask who is your teacher?

John Ervin Sifu - You probably know him yourself. He studied with GM Chang back in the 80's when he was here in Cleveland.

ginosifu

[Pork Chop]

This can be difficult if the gear is reused. In events where the gear is owned by the promoter and supplied to the competitor, the promoter must make sure that there is an inspection with the competitor when the gear is provided to them. Then, when it is handed back, it must be cleaned and disinfected (blood and other bodily fluids must be removed and the objects need to be sanitized...like a wash down with bleach and then alcohol (alcohol is mainly to remove the bleach smell and residue).

The gear has to be checked for breaks and tears at each point.


I'm mainly stressing over gloves; because there are legitimate issues when non-standard gloves are used.

The requirements you list are the same requirements that amateur boxing has and I've never even heard of an event where USA Boxing didn't supply gloves. I believe the on-site medical staff usually wipes the gloves down, inside and out, with sanitary wipes, quick process.

Headgear, shin guards, and chest guards are a completely different story.
Headgear should be USA Boxing certified.
The other 2 should have some sort of consensus as to what's acceptable.

[Orion Paximus]

John Ervin Sifu - You probably know him yourself. He studied with GM Chang back in the 80's when he was here in Cleveland.

ginosifu

One other question, did you consult your Sifu prior to coming to a public forum to call out Nick Scrima? Remember, in all things, you represent your teacher with every thing you do.

[Pork Chop]

But since Taiji Legacy guts the fighters and makes them pay because they can't sell tickets, it's a losing proposition for them. They don't need spectators because the fighters pay HUGE entry fees. What a joke.


Yeah, I can't defend ANY of Taiji Legacy's practices when it comes to Sanshou.
High entrance fee, no insurance, no sanctioning, completely arbitrary & flexible weight classes (there was an event in the past where they included 187+ as heavyweight), non standard gloves (you could step up there with 14oz super bag gloves and get away with it - not that cr@ppy everlast gloves from Academy are any better), glove weights changing within a month of the event (2009, the glove requirement dropped from 16 to 14 around 4 to 6 weeks out from the event), and medical personal that may be volunteers found the day of the event.

I think that's why I never pulled the trigger. I know none of my muay thai coaches were ever thrilled about me doing that event.

[mooyingmantis]

Gino,

Here is my two cents on the issue.

GLW makes excellent points about supplying the equipment. I definitely would NOT. Competitors should be given specific information on which pieces of equipment to bring and no exceptions should be made.

Wiping off gloves between rounds with most cleaners, even bleach is not sufficient to kill Hepatitis germs. In Ohio medical facilities, the standard is that bleach must be applied to a surface and left to stand for one hour to guard against the spread hepatitis. Simply wiping off equipment with sanitary wipes doesn't cut it.

Boxing or MMA matches where fighters are paid to fight and local or regional martial arts tournaments have little in common. Most local or even regional tournaments historically have catered to children and teens. Adults have been the minority. They give sports-oriented kids a martial arts "little league" experience and a safe environment where they can practice their strikes and strategies against others outside of their own guan/dojo. They were not designed for people to beat the hell out of each other.

So the questions you need to have clear in your mind are: "What is the GLKFC trying to be? What is the goal of the tournament? Who are the target competitors? What is the target audience?"

As far as HIV testing, did you know?

1. You can be exposed to HIV, yet it not be transmitted to you.
2. Three to four days after you have been infected with HIV, you can transmit the virus to others.
3. Testing for HIV should occur no sooner than ONE MONTH after possible exposure. If the test comes back negative after one month, another test must be taken at three months to confirm the result.

So on-site testing for HIV would be dicey at best and would be NO guarantee of a fighters freedom from infection.

Just some thoughts!

[GLW]

The gloves can be a problem in those cases. The way the more "standardized" competitions and organizations have dealt with that (and unfortunately, there are many fewer standard events than non-standard ones) - is that they specify the equipment in such a way that the competitor pretty much has to buy the exact type and often the exact brand required.

For example, if you specify ## Ounce Olympic Regulation boxing gloves with laces, and so on, and then specify hand wraps to a great detail... you end up with a particular boxing glove...and you then specify a check of equipment by officials (a standard even required for things like weapons form competitions).

the other guards and protectors can be specified the same way.

In the past, I was dealing with rules with one well know CMA organization...and they would not make the safety equipment mandatory...it was "recommended" and if used, had to be of a certain type. This led to injuries with the macho types who felt they did not need protective gear. Crazy....

[Pork Chop]

Wiping off gloves between rounds with most cleaners, even bleach is not sufficient to kill Hepatitis germs. In Ohio medical facilities, the standard is that bleach must be applied to a surface and left to stand for one hour to guard against the spread hepatitis. Simply wiping off equipment with sanitary wipes doesn't cut it.

I've seen amateur kickboxing events where only a few pairs were utilized and were sanctioned bouts. I can not speak with authority on how the gear was cleaned, but I can say that they were not left to sit for hours.

USA Amateur Boxing tournaments often run for days and can have upwards of 100 bouts; I doubt they have a brand new pair for each bout, and they ARE provided.

As far as protecting against Hepatitis, I'll get to that in a second.



Boxing or MMA matches where fighters are paid to fight and local or regional martial arts tournaments have little in common.

I made specific amateur boxing bouts under the provision & sanctioning of USA Boxing. I also have experience with amateur kickboxing/muay thai events put on by the USKBA, WKA, USMTA, and other regional promotions.
We're not talking pro fighters; we're talking about how TCMA tournaments fleece & endanger the health of amateur full contact fighters.



Most local or even regional tournaments historically have catered to children and teens. Adults have been the minority. They give sports-oriented kids a martial arts "little league" experience and a safe environment where they can practice their strikes and strategies against others outside of their own guan/dojo. They were not designed for people to beat the hell out of each other.

I don't think this has been the case at all in my experience of the TCMA tournament circuit on the east coast. I used to work the Wong tournament in DC, I attended the Wong Fei Hung tournament in Jersey, the Yin Yang tournament in Maryland, Taiji Legacy, the Five Tigers tournament in Maryland, and countless others.

While there were always childrens divisions, adults were hardly a minority.
The typical TCMA tournament way of doing things is to ignore san shou altogether and allow for full contact in completely unregulated, continuous, "medium"-contact "sparring" events. I've seen more broken bones & serious injuries in continuous sparring than in full contact events - mostly caused by inconsistent enforcement of the rules about "no face contact" and the fact that competitors are using sub-standard gear (like foam dipped karate chops).



So on-site testing for HIV would be dicey at best and would be NO guarantee of a fighters freedom from infection.

Blood tests for any sanctioned full contact event are NOT done on site.
They are done in the weeks before the event.
TCMA tournaments do not require proof of the test as sanctioned events do.
The most you'll get is a statement saying "don't come to our tournament with a disease" type statement.
If your bloodwork's not clean, you won't be fighting at a sanctioned amateur event, period. So defending against Hepatitis is done by policy before the event and not through the handling of the equipment.

[mooyingmantis]

Porkchop,

I do not have any dispute with anything you have posted above. I agree!

I have been judging in various tournaments since 1978. Most were karate/taekwondo based tourneys rather than TCMA. Though I have judged a few years at the Great Lakes Championship and the Hall of Fame Championship (both TCMA), plus a kung fu tourny in Louisiana many years ago. So, I can only say what I have seen.

My point about HIV is that I can be tested in April, but would not know for certain if I was clear of infection until at least August. If I competed this summer, well you get the idea. Also, I could be cleared today, have unprotected sex tomorrow and be ready to infect others by Saturday or Sunday of this weekend. So, I wouldn't put a lot of faith in pre-testing. Not that it isn't a good idea. I just wouldn't rely on it if I was really concerned about infection.

I also agree that if we are going to run a full contact event, the safety of the competitor must be paramount! Proper equipment and medical staff is a must.

Like you, I have seen unnecessary injuries at TCMA tournys. I was once "excused" as a judge in a "continuous, "medium"-contact "sparring" event" because a competitor was using excessive contact and I stopped the fight several times to warn him. I was replaced by a well-known kung fu sifu who showed no regard for the safety of the competitors. Within two minutes the out of control competitor had broken his opponent's nose. This should never have happened.

[Pork Chop]

My point about HIV is that I can be tested in April, but would not know for certain if I was clear of infection until at least August. If I competed this summer, well you get the idea. Also, I could be cleared today, have unprotected sex tomorrow and be ready to infect others by Saturday or Sunday of this weekend. So, I wouldn't put a lot of faith in pre-testing. Not that it isn't a good idea. I just wouldn't rely on it if I was really concerned about infection.

I also agree that if we are going to run a full contact event, the safety of the competitor must be paramount! Proper equipment and medical staff is a must.


You're totally correct that blood tests do have their limitations.

It's probably not a bad idea, if gloves are be to provided, that they be fresh gloves for each fighter. With multi-bout tournaments, it gets difficult - either you have a ton of gloves, you trust people to disinfect their own equipment, or you do it for them. None of those 3 options are particularly ideal.

You almost wish that the same sifus who put such a concerted effort into bending the rules to allow for full contact continuous sparring would put the same effort into establishing and promoting a safe venue for legitimate full contact competition.

[ginosifu]

GLW / Pork Chop / Mooyingmantis

you guys all make good points. Safety is an issue and I am concerned for the fighters. However, with a small to medium size event such as ours, is it economically feasable to to do blood testing weeks / months in advance? When we required people to have certain gear (we even put it in writing), people either did not show or showed up with the wrong gear or no gear at all. Yes there were supposed to know the correct gear to wear, but a lot of times it just derailes the event because half of the fighters showed up with the wrong or no gear. Yes we get there money.... but this does not promote the tourney well with no one fighting. Will we end up with very few fighters because of all the hoops they must go thru and pay an entrance fee for our event?

The OAC will now be watching John Ervin and his events so they are probably going to force him to either join the organization or not do any San Shou. As for where are tournament is going, John has always put fighting in front. Combat whether Shuai Chiao or Shuai Chiao and San Shou would be prepferrable to him.

If it was up to me, I would have gotten rid of all the forms years ago and just stuck with SC, SS and possibly continuous light contact.

ginosifu

[YouKnowWho]

If it was up to me, I would have gotten rid of all the forms years ago and just stuck with SC, SS and possibly continuous light contact.
I don't think you can survive any tournament without form competation. Someone has to pay the bill. Some people just love to pay you money and be judged. Not sure I can understand that kind of thinking. If someone asks me to give performance to entertain him, I want that person to pay me.

[MasterKiller]

As far as HIV testing, did you know?

1. You can be exposed to HIV, yet it not be transmitted to you.
2. Three to four days after you have been infected with HIV, you can transmit the virus to others.
3. Testing for HIV should occur no sooner than ONE MONTH after possible exposure. If the test comes back negative after one month, another test must be taken at three months to confirm the result.

So on-site testing for HIV would be dicey at best and would be NO guarantee of a fighters freedom from infection.

Just some thoughts!
Blood tests have to be redone every 12 months, usually at the fighter's expense.

[Oso]

tough break Gino. hard to say about Scrima...talk to him and find out what he says.

but, this might be an opportunity for you and Sifu Ervin to sit down and evaluate what you both want the event to be and what sort of political hoops you're willing to jump through.

I've enjoyed every trip to Sifu Ervin's tournament and to the ill-fated mantis 'conference' in '05 that he sponsored at his school. I've not met many people in the martial world with the integrity of Sifu Ervin and his group.

Everyone makes great points about both the 'medium contact' BS you see and the need to make any full-contact event safe for the fighters. I've never worried about general safety at the GLKFC. But, in general, the CMA world does need to update to modern safety precautions...most especially the Lei Tai events in the kuoshou world...that equipment is dangerous.

[GLW]

This is one of the issues with full contact events. The Boxing Commissions in the states with tougher laws are often corrupt but they do provide for a level of safety. The fighters are required to have some level of physical examination and keep their licensing or certification current to be able to fight. The promoters for events ARE put in a position to have the commission with its hand in their pockets. But, they are also required to have a minimum level of medical staff, safety procedure, and many of those involved know about barrier techniques in regards to bodily fluids and disease prevention.

Personally, I decided ages ago I wanted nothing to do with this aspect of CMA events for just this reason. While there has never been an incident of HIV or Hepatitis that could be traced directly to exposure from blood in a combat event (at least to my knowledge), and the danger IS less than that for say a dental hygeinist, there is still a danger. If there were an effort to make the officials aware of the danger and to deal with it, it would be one thing. However, in CMA events, this danger is completely ignored.

Then, over the past few years with the Boxing Commission rules coming in, I have avoided the full contact areas because I want nothing to do with having to know if the event is doing things legally or not.

[Pork Chop]

Just to be clear, my comments about tcma tourneys is not something directed at gino.
I don't know anything about his (sifu's) tourney and their practices.
In fact, I support anybody putting on a sanshou event; I would like to see more of them.

Given that gino's in Ohio; my initial thought is - "Why not bring on someone like Scott Sheeley to handle the sanshou aspect of things?". Scott's got a lot of experience with putting on sanshou events. I imagine if he doesn't want to take over that aspect of it, or consult on how to do it right, then at least he might be able to point to someone who can help.

The sad fact is that full contact events are a whole other level of headache than running a standard forms-based tourney and if you'd like to include those events, then having someone who's sole purpose is organizing it might be your best bet.

One thing I always found lacking with full contact events tacked onto forms tournaments is promotion. It'd be a great way to sell spectator tickets and maybe even make back some of the money required to throw the event.

[ginosifu]

Given that gino's in Ohio; my initial thought is - "Why not bring on someone like Scott Sheeley to handle the sanshou aspect of things?". Scott's got a lot of experience with putting on sanshou events. I imagine if he doesn't want to take over that aspect of it, or consult on how to do it right, then at least he might be able to point to someone who can help.

Scott Sheely's Iron Tigers are good guys and they have good stuff. However, they run their rule set a bit differently than ours, that's why we don't do anything with him. I have had some of my fighter fight at his events.... nice guy

ginosifu

[bawang]

nick scrima is a true chinese martial artist. you talk, he takes action

you are competing against his tournament, so he took you out.

[David Jamieson]

I would put in a stipulation that anyone who wants to fight full contact has to provide legit bloods signed by dr., dated, etc. There is a standard format I think.

I would also hook up with an athletic commission to ensure the fights are not a circus of nonsense such as they more often than not are at TCMA tourneys. This would ad an air of professionalism and justify any costs to view. For people that do only forms, yes, they can pay. Fighters shouldn't pay. There should be a purse for them to compete for. That really brings up the quality of fights. Money!

It doesn't hurt to update the ways of going about things. Especially in this day and age where the learning is exponential.

Take what's good, leave the bad, add more good!

[mooyingmantis]

Blood tests have to be redone every 12 months, usually at the fighter's expense.

Then they are fairly worthless.

[mooyingmantis]

For people that do only forms, yes, they can pay.

How would you justify this to forms competitors? They train faithfully, risk injury and travel just like the fighters. Why treat them like *****es?


Fighters shouldn't pay. There should be a purse for them to compete for. That really brings up the quality of fights. Money!

I agree that there should be cash prizes for fights. I am considering hosting Sanshou matches with cash prizes in the future.

But why shouldn't fighters pay to enter? Bowlers and golfers pay entry fees to compete in their events. Don't sponsors cover the fees to compete in Nascar and Indie car races?

[Drake]

How would you justify this to forms competitors? They train faithfully, risk injury and travel just like the fighters. Why treat them like *****es?



I agree that there should be cash prizes for fights. I am considering hosting Sanshou matches with cash prizes in the future.

But why shouldn't fighters pay to enter? Bowlers and golfers pay entry fees to compete in their events. Don't sponsors cover the fees to compete in Nascar and Indie car races?

Because doing forms has a phenomenally lower risk to the person than being punched and kicked by a strong and determined opponent. who will likely continue doing so until you stop resisting.

Not even in the same category of risk or exertion. Not even close.

[lance]

First off I would like to say that our Great Lakes Kung Fu Championships was a great success and I had a lot of fun judging SC. However, there was some attempts at sabatoging our event.

A couple of weeks ago my teacher was contacted by the Ohio Athletic Commision. This group usually runs all the boxing events and normally groups would have to go thru them to hire judges / Doctors / rules and regulation etc etc. Lately this group has been now trying to take over San Shou and the Martial Arts events.

One of their representatives contacted my teacher wanting him to use them.... blah blah bla. My teacher asked how did they know about us he replied with an email sent by a fellow kung fu teacher. The Shifu is Nick Scrima and here is the email he sent.

----- Forwarded Message ----
From: "Profato, Bernie" <Bernie.Profato@aco.ohio.gov>
To: "jervinsifu@att.net" <jervinsifu@att.net>
Sent: Wed, April 4, 2012 9:31:29 AM
Subject: FW: San Shou full contact in Ohio

Bernie Profato
Ohio Athletic Commission
Office: 330-797-2556
Fax- 330-7972559

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Nick Scrima [nick.scrima@worldsandaleague.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2012 3:41 PM
To: Profato, Bernie
Subject: San Shou full contact in Ohio


Is the below event supervised or sanctioned by the Ohio Athletic Commission?


04-14-2012 (2 days)
Great Lakes Kung Fu Championships and Shaui Chiao San Shou Nationals
All the Kung Fu Forms and Weapons Divisions you want, Internal Forms and Weapons Continuous Light Contact Sparring, Shuai Chiao, San Shou Full Contact
For more information, contact: Sifu John Ervin
Phone: 216.431.4991
Event Address: 6401 St. Clair Ave
Cleveland, OH, 44103 USA
Online: jervinsifu@att.net -

We ended up having to shut down our San Shou divisions. Coincidentally Nick Scrima had a tournament in Pittsburg on the Same day?

My question to you is...

Do you think this was unethical approach to tournaments held on the same day?

Why did not Nick Just call and ask my teacher? (we have known each other for over 20 years).

Morally was this good kung fu?

Your thoughts

ginosifu


ginosifu , I agree with you the guy Nick should ' ve just called and talked to you about what he really wanted to do , instead of just sending you that email . Well ,
I maybe wrong but , the guy nick maybe he ' s hiding something which is something to do with that tournament sabotage . Because , why does he send you an email , when he could ' ve just you call up ?

And you said that the guy nick had his own share of tournament involvement in pittsburg . Well , maybe he ' s just trying to kill 2 - birds with one stone . And to get recognition and credit too for the tournmant .
There are times when mo matter how long you know eachother , they can still try to sabotage whatever you 2 were involved in or backstab you . In other words people change for the worse . He probably just wanted to show you that he can be involved with 2 - tournaments at one time .

[MasterKiller]

How would you justify this to forms competitors? They train faithfully, risk injury and travel just like the fighters. Why treat them like *****es? Are you seriously comparing the risks associated with someone doing a solo routine on a basketball court with fighting full-contact?



I agree that there should be cash prizes for fights. I am considering hosting Sansho matches with cash prizes in the future. Please don't. The last thing the world needs is another shoddy fight promotion. And if you give a cash a prize, you just compromised the fighter's amateur status. :rolleyes:

And I seriously doubt you want to get into paying professionals. Even for a first fight, you are looking at $200 to show and $200 to win, which means each fight is a minimum of $600 in fighter purses.


But why shouldn't fighters pay to enter? Bowlers and golfers pay entry fees to compete in their events. Don't sponsors cover the fees to compete in Nascar and Indie car races?Promoters sell tickets for people to watch the fights. If the fighters are all amateur, all you are allowed to kick in (in most states) is travel costs and maybe a free hotel room. So fighters are essentially free labor. That's why.

[ngokfei]

Gino

Its the old small fish is now a big fish and is eating all the small fish to make them even bigger.

now as for Combat Events, in all reality they should be sanctioned under a state commission for all the reasons stated. and yes most if not all of these commissions are corrupt to a point. $$ - cost of doing business.

mixed tournaments have always had their problems. Forms competitors generally don't fight and vice versa and the spectators are generally family members of the forms competitiors.

I really can't understand how promoters can charge fighters to fight. Some as much as $100 for one bout!!! Hell I can get my students full contact basic skills fights (boxing, kickboxing, etc) almost every weekend of the month. for FREE

Professional promoters make their $$ off the spectators, advertisers and sponsors.

success on your future events.
(friends close but your enemies now closer)

[wenshu]

Imma hijack this thread back to the 18th century.

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1167469#post1167469

[bawang]

this is why you should only learn from a chinese guy.

[mickey]

Greetings,

I have been looking at this thread for a while.

If Nick Scrima did anything, he made a political move by endearing himself to the commission. In time he will evolve to being the "go to" guy and then to being the guy who oversees kung fu tournaments in his region. NOTHING will go down unless he gives the okay. Simply stated, he has upped his game. If not him, it would be someone else. Would you rather see a kung fu man overseeing things or some guy who really doesn't give a fuk?

This move was one of strength.

mickey

[Oso]

Nick Scrima is based out of Orlando if I'm not mistaken.

[mickey]

Thanks Oso,

How did I miss that?

Then he may be making a bigger move. Time will tell.



mickey

[mooyingmantis]

Thanks Oso,

How did I miss that?

Then he may be making a bigger move. Time will tell.



mickey

IF this is true, and I'm not saying it is, screwing over the little guys would turn around to bite him in the ass when he moves into the region and needs our support.

[mawali]

In one sense, it is a good thing but costs to the participant will increase, at least in 'contact events. People are seeing that this venue is garnering attention so there is money to be made, sadly though initially at the expense of the participants. I hope I am wrong on the matter.

I see visions of USAWKF fiasco though in this case, more transparency to a point!

[mickey]

Greetings,

If I was involved in the tournament scene, I would try to get involved with the AAU in taking the initiative to oversee the events taking place in my area. If it involves certification, I would get it. That way, I get a piece of everybody's action. And I stand to get a bigger piece of my own action. Why settle for crumbs when you can get a nice meal?

How many of you tournament organizers try to get sponsorships?

mickey

[SiuHung]

It's all B/S

kung fu tournaments are a fraction, of a fraction, of a small percentage.

No one talks to anyone or coordinates anything.
This is why Kung fu is essentially dead.

[ginosifu]

It's all B/S

kung fu tournaments are a fraction, of a fraction, of a small percentage.

No one talks to anyone or coordinates anything.
This is why Kung fu is essentially dead.

This is essentially correct. Most of the old school Chinese kung fu Sifu's (Includes Chinese born, American born, European born etc) have an attitude problem in my opinion.

This all stems from the Chinese culture of pride, pettiness and losing face. My wife is Asian and I see this attitude in her as well. I have noticed over the years that many old school Sifu would not associate with other Sifu or if you did not play by their rules, they took their ball and went home.

All of these old school attitudes hinder CMA. Modern people are not quite as bad but, people like Nick are part of this old school regime.

ginosifu

[taai gihk yahn]

This all stems from the Chinese culture of pride, pettiness and losing face.
exactly! and heaven forbid your student(s) see even the slightest crack* in your armor - because it will invariably send them all running towards the sifu down the road who claims invincibleness...and crack goes your rice bowl;

this is predicated on the ridiculous notion that it's the teacher who "has something special" that no one else has, and that even more absurdly, that he is capable of "giving it" to you; of course, in this day and age, there are no secrets: it's all out there on You Tube - and I mean not only the forms - you can see a lot of good stuff, including so-called "internal", in terms of usage; what's more, more and more people are waking up to the FACT that, as in any other of physical skill, it's not the teacher / style, it's what you put into it, and that the only "secret" is that the better conditioned, the stronger, the faster and the more adept you are in no-frills, high-percentage techniques, the better a fighter you will be;

the days of the myth of super-duper powers secret-temple-hidden TCMA are, for the most part, over; no longer can you claim superiority based on what you practice, now you have to put-up or shut-up; and while that is the death-knell for the "traditional" way of things, it's also a potential wake-up call for the community to get off it's collective butts, and start data-mining itself for the things it has of value to offer and to train according to those things in a way that students can rise to the current level at which the bar is being re-set

*(I originally wrote "ch1nk" but it got censored, LOL - any comments on that one, Gene?!?)

[sanjuro_ronin]

I've seen pretty much EVERY single "secret" skill done by a "master", copied and done just as well, if not better, by someone else with NO MA training at times.

[GeneChing]

*(I originally wrote "ch1nk" but it got censored, LOL - any comments on that one, Gene?!?) I can override them, of course, but that seems silly. Even though it's easy enough to get around them by subbing a letter, at least it's a reminder. Besides, I find it rather amusing for some words like ****her and ****phone. ;)

[taai gihk yahn]

I can override them, of course, but that seems silly. Even though it's easy enough to get around them by subbing a letter, at least it's a reminder. Besides, I find it rather amusing for some words like ****her and ****phone. ;)

no, of course don't override it - it's part of the peculiar KFMF flavor we all have come to luv; my point is that, whereas you can write "mick", "wop", "kraut", "nip" or "paki", "ch1nk" gets censored...hmmmm....;)

[bawang]

This all stems from the Chinese culture of pride, pettiness and losing face.

no. this stems from american kung fu people being big hairy poossies, and your "old school" coming from inbred chinese hillbilly kung fu.

[wenshu]

inbred chinese hillbilly kung fu.


in guang dong province


big hairy poossies,


banging several hot asian chicks a week

For a second there I thought I was in the 'challenge matches' thread.

[GeneChing]

no, of course don't override it - it's part of the peculiar KFMF flavor we all have come to luv; my point is that, whereas you can write "mick", "wop", "kraut", "nip" or "paki", "ch1nk" gets censored...hmmmm....;) That must have been one of Steve Creel's original settings as I can't imagine it was pre-programed that way. I've only added a few - like when we had to ban a certain member.

Hmm, if need be, I suppose I could censor 'gihk'. :p

At least you can still write poossies. :rolleyes:

[YouKnowWho]

This all stems from the Chinese culture of pride,

It's the attitude of "Prefer to be the head of a chicken than to be the end of a cow". But not all Chinese have that kind of attitude. I was the 1st term president of the of ACSCA. After all the board of directors had served their 2 years terms, we all agree to assign David C. K. Lin as the president for the rest of his life.

If you know someone has better combat skill than you have, it's not hard to follow the lead from that person. If you think you may be better than someone, it's very difficult to let that person to lead you.

[ginosifu]

no. this stems from american kung fu people being big hairy poossies, and your "old school" coming from inbred chinese hillbilly kung fu.

I hope you know that I am talking about people that came out of China that brought their attitudes here. I have been to China and seen and heard this attitude first hand. My wife is from Indonesia and they are basically the same.

My main experiences are first hand talking and working with Chinese born kung fu Sifu that came to America. They act with the same attitude of can't lose face and I need to be the leader of kung fu on the East coast or I will Black Ball you and you will never teach in this area again. Or if you talk with that guy I will never talk with you again. Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah. However, not everyone is like that though.

bawang: you are probably one of the biggest old school Arseholes with that can't lose face attitudes!


It's the attitude of "Prefer to be the head of a chicken than to be the end of a cow". But not all Chinese have that kind of attitude. I was the 1st term president of the of ACSCA. After all the board of directors had served their 2 years terms, we all agree to assign David C. K. Lin as the president for the rest of his life.

If you know someone has better combat skill than you have, it's not hard to follow the lead from that person. If you think you may be better than someone, it's very difficult to let that person to lead you.

YouKnowWho: Not everyone is bad.... But there are those who fall into that Can't Lose Face / Pride / Petty kinda catagory.

ginosifu

[wenshu]

But there are those who fall into that Can't Lose Face / Pride / Petty kinda catagory.

You are in that category.

You didn't post this thread to ***** about how you gained face because someone snitched on your little tournament.

I don't think "face" has anything to do with Scrima's motivations anyways.

He dropped a dime cause he wants to muscle in on your territory.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lhhjisnv1x1qe0eclo1_r10_500.gif

[bawang]

My main experiences are first hand talking and working with Chinese born kung fu Sifu that came to America.

chinese teachers that want a white ricebowl all have egos. thats why they wanna teach white people in the first place. to show off to other chinese, and because they think white students are stupid and easily impress.

[PalmStriker]

no. this stems from american kung fu people being big hairy poossies, and your "old school" coming from inbred chinese hillbilly kung fu.
LOL ! :D Funny assessment.

[Orion Paximus]

chinese teachers that want a white ricebowl all have egos. thats why they wanna teach white people in the first place. to show off to other chinese, and because they think white students are stupid and easily impress.

Because it's true.

[Lokhopkuen]

First off I would like to say that our Great Lakes Kung Fu Championships was a great success and I had a lot of fun judging SC. However, there was some attempts at sabatoging our event.

A couple of weeks ago my teacher was contacted by the Ohio Athletic Commision. This group usually runs all the boxing events and normally groups would have to go thru them to hire judges / Doctors / rules and regulation etc etc. Lately this group has been now trying to take over San Shou and the Martial Arts events.

One of their representatives contacted my teacher wanting him to use them.... blah blah bla. My teacher asked how did they know about us he replied with an email sent by a fellow kung fu teacher. The Shifu is Nick Scrima and here is the email he sent.

----- Forwarded Message ----
From: "Profato, Bernie" <Bernie.Profato@aco.ohio.gov>
To: "jervinsifu@att.net" <jervinsifu@att.net>
Sent: Wed, April 4, 2012 9:31:29 AM
Subject: FW: San Shou full contact in Ohio

Bernie Profato
Ohio Athletic Commission
Office: 330-797-2556
Fax- 330-7972559

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Nick Scrima [nick.scrima@worldsandaleague.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2012 3:41 PM
To: Profato, Bernie
Subject: San Shou full contact in Ohio


Is the below event supervised or sanctioned by the Ohio Athletic Commission?


04-14-2012 (2 days)
Great Lakes Kung Fu Championships and Shaui Chiao San Shou Nationals
All the Kung Fu Forms and Weapons Divisions you want, Internal Forms and Weapons Continuous Light Contact Sparring, Shuai Chiao, San Shou Full Contact
For more information, contact: Sifu John Ervin
Phone: 216.431.4991
Event Address: 6401 St. Clair Ave
Cleveland, OH, 44103 USA
Online: jervinsifu@att.net -

We ended up having to shut down our San Shou divisions. Coincidentally Nick Scrima had a tournament in Pittsburg on the Same day?

My question to you is...

Do you think this was unethical approach to tournaments held on the same day?

Why did not Nick Just call and ask my teacher? (we have known each other for over 20 years).

Morally was this good kung fu?

Your thoughts

ginosifu

People perform interesting acts under the guise of "just doing business".

[Lokhopkuen]

LOL ! :D Funny assessment.

I've never found racist or their antics particularly amusing but bawang sheds light on a very sad wide spread attitude that has damaged Chinese based martial art to it's core.

Thank goodness my Sifu never behaved this way toward us.

[Lokhopkuen]

exactly! and heaven forbid your student(s) see even the slightest crack* in your armor - because it will invariably send them all running towards the sifu down the road who claims invincibleness...and crack goes your rice bowl;

this is predicated on the ridiculous notion that it's the teacher who "has something special" that no one else has, and that even more absurdly, that he is capable of "giving it" to you; of course, in this day and age, there are no secrets: it's all out there on You Tube - and I mean not only the forms - you can see a lot of good stuff, including so-called "internal", in terms of usage; what's more, more and more people are waking up to the FACT that, as in any other of physical skill, it's not the teacher / style, it's what you put into it, and that the only "secret" is that the better conditioned, the stronger, the faster and the more adept you are in no-frills, high-percentage techniques, the better a fighter you will be;

the days of the myth of super-duper powers secret-temple-hidden TCMA are, for the most part, over; no longer can you claim superiority based on what you practice, now you have to put-up or shut-up; and while that is the death-knell for the "traditional" way of things, it's also a potential wake-up call for the community to get off it's collective butts, and start data-mining itself for the things it has of value to offer and to train according to those things in a way that students can rise to the current level at which the bar is being re-set

*(I originally wrote "ch1nk" but it got censored, LOL - any comments on that one, Gene?!?)

Sounds like somebody gots Kung Fu PTSD Not to worry; a ittle therapy and some uptown kickboxing and you'll be juss fine:p

[kuniggety]

Thank goodness my Sifu never behaved this way toward us.

Ken Hui, Kam Yuen, and Ark Wong (and I'm sure many others) really did great things for CMA by expanding them to a wider audience. I've heard stories of Kam Yuen getting into fights with other CMA instructors who were racist/disrespectful towards his students.

[Lokhopkuen]

It's all B/S

kung fu tournaments are a fraction, of a fraction, of a small percentage.

No one talks to anyone or coordinates anything.
This is why Kung fu is essentially dead.

He says on the Kung Fu Magazine forum LOL!:rolleyes:

[18elders]

If all Nick did was ask if it was supervised or sanctioned, why did you have to shut down the event?
Does that mean it was supposed to be?

[ginosifu]

If all Nick did was ask if it was supervised or sanctioned, why did you have to shut down the event?
Does that mean it was supposed to be?

After Nick asked.... They (the Ohio Athletic Commission) started questioning my Sifu and if he was doing any San Shou at his Tourney and if he was they wanted him to get sanctioned by them. If he didn't they would have came down with state agents and shut us down.

OAC is not the worst orginization to be involved with, however the OAC is for big events. The costs involved in OAC would have been counter productive for a small event such as ours. We would have to use their Insurance, Pay for their Doctors etc which is way more than we could have afforded.

ginosifu

[GLW]

I have no idea what is going on here...

But, it is reasonable for any instructor or head of a school/group of schools to ask questions about sanctioning, legal issues, and safety for any Sanshou event.

If there is a boxing commission in a state and said commission has sway over all full contact events like Sanshou and an event is open to anyone who wishes to register (not a private club - there are exemptions for private organizations and clubs in some states with boxing commissions), and regardless of any fees being collected for entry, a responsible instructor would not be doing anything wrong to verify the legal adherence of the event.

The way to verify this before any of your students enter would be to ask the boxing commission if the event has been sanctioned. You COULD ask the event itself but may not always get a straight answer.

So, the question was asked and the answer was obviously No. So, the person ASKING the question about legalities and the event is bad but there is no issue with the person putting on the event?

I am puzzled.

The idea of "their Insurance, Pay for their Doctors" was raised. Doctors do not do events for free unless they are involved in the arts...and even then, they may not do them due to liability....so they are NEVER cheap. Insurance - well, if an event can get an apples to apples bid for insurance providing the same required information that a boxing commission would and the non-commission Insurance Co. is drastically cheaper than the one the commission requires...as in the coverage is EXACTLY the same, then the claim of being forced into a collusion atmosphere would be reasonable. Otherwise, insurance is a cost that all events have to deal with...and the more exacting you are in describing the risks of the event, the more expensive the insurance will probably be.

So, I do not know if there was "sabotage" here. But, I can see room for benefit of the doubt on all sides.

[taai gihk yahn]

Sounds like somebody gots Kung Fu PTSD Not to worry; a ittle therapy and some uptown kickboxing and you'll be juss fine:p

hang in there, man - a few more days back on your prescription meds, and you will almost be intelligible!

[Lokhopkuen]

All I get is the street stuff n it juss makes me kinda nauszy;) You writes gUd!:D

[taai gihk yahn]

All I get is the street stuff n it juss makes me kinda nauszy;) You writes gUd!:D

the street stuff's the best - it's like organic versus GMO!

[GeneChing]

I have no idea what is going on here...

So I recently got an emailblast on Nick Scrima's World Sanda League (http://www.worldsandaleague.com/). You gonna drop a dime on that, Gino?

[Phil Redmond]

So I recently got an emailblast on Nick Scrima's World Sanda League (http://www.worldsandaleague.com/). You gonna drop a dime on that, Gino?
It's out of the country so no one should care.