Shifting, Body Turning and Footwork

[Happy Tiger]

O.K. I'm starting it. The three most central, most basic of all Ving Tsun concepts. Let's weigh in first!!!

[JPinAZ]

I dissagree. YJKYM is more basic than those 3. I'd further say centerline is the MOST central/basic/fundamental concept of WCK ;)

Footwork, shifting, etc are more 'advanced' concepts over those of SNT, and I'd argue that those focused on in SNT have more importance.

[EternalSpring]

And I disagree with posts 1 and 2! Chong Choi is the most basic, central, and fundamental of which Chun concepts as it covers centerline theory, economy of motion, structure, and can advance into other things such as training sensitivity, etc. Which then applies further because the punch can be replaced with other techniques (ex: cycling tan/bong/fook/biu/dim journ/vuong journ/phoenix eyes/tiger and eagle claws/etc). http://smiliesftw.com/x/cookiemonster2.gif

but yea, Im just being semi annoying to disagree with people lol. The stuff about Chong Choi aside, I do understand that we all have diff views based on how we learn and what things are central to the style. But with that said, I do agree that shifting, body turning, and footwork are very important.

Footwork was the first thing that I realized I had to work on when I started testing my Ving Tsun in sparring. I look at it as similar to the way I was taught to train boxing (which im still very much a noob in). For example, I could use all sorts of punches on a heavy bag, but if I'm not moving my feet (and head and body), I'm just training to stand in one spot and throw punches, which quickly, at least for me, proved to be a bad way to train once I had to spar with people. I'm not a Hung Fa Yi guy, but I do always love reading about when their practitioners talk about "kiu sao (not that i actually fully understand it, but from what i do understand)," because i think the concept is def important and all sifus should teach something similar. Footwork is the key to bridging the gap, imo.

Right now, my Ving Tsun, in application involves a lot of moving around. It's working for me, but at the same time, I will admit that I haven't completed the system and my sisook did once tell me that while my movement was good, there were other potentially better ways to move. I tend to switch my stances and side step and move in a lot. My sisook destroys me when we spar by literally just moving completely into my space. I'm guessing that my footwork and moving methods are part of the chain of progression of Ving Tsun movement as taught in my family.

[couch]

O.K. I'm starting it. The three most central, most basic of all Ving Tsun concepts. Let's weigh in first!!!

The forms teach (and are a signpost) for all three.

The Siu Nim Tao teaches the basic position and facing.

The Chum Kiu shows the 'gray area' in which the centreline can be shifted in order to gain power, distance and protection. There is limited footwork here, but it gives an idea.

The Mook Yan Jong has useful footwork, shows power generation in kicking and trips.

The Biu Jee has minor footwork additions, but shows trips, etc.

The Luk Dim Poon Kwan shows penetrating force from a side-on position and how to gain power and stay mobile with a long weapon.

The Baat Jam Dao form has some forward darting and great retreating steps. Both weapon forms have traditional horse stance and cat stances.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Shifting, body turning and footwork exist for the following reason:
To get you out of the way of your attacker, maintaining you balance and CL towards your attacker so that you can attack him with correct structure and maximum results.

That is what they are for.
All the drills and forms create a solid BASE for that, but sparring activates it and refines it ( it being the base created).

[Yoshiyahu]

I agree with Sanjuro That Shifting, Footwork, And Turning can be utilized for getting out of the way of an attacker.

As well as neutralizing his force. You can shift or turn to bring yours foes force to nothingness.


in addition shifting and turning can be use to generate power with your structure. Ie chum kiu...

Also footwork can be use to evade and side step or flank an opponent so you can go directly into him with out entering his attacking line.

Also Chi Sau, San Shou and Sparring with footwork is key!

[wingchunIan]

footwork is the key to every martial art. The challenge in every martial art is trancending drills and making your footwork live.

[Lee Chiang Po]

O.K. I'm starting it. The three most central, most basic of all Ving Tsun concepts. Let's weigh in first!!!


Maintaining center and defending center is the most basic concept. Body turning and your footwork are just methods of maintaining center. All else comes after center line concept. Evading force, evading contact, persuing an opponent, striking and kicking, all follow the center line concept. Sil Lim teaches us to do everything dead of center. Or very close to it. From there we learn to move and carry these concepts to our opponent. But without your devotion to center you will not be able to focus these other methods and moves.

[wingchunIan]

most central Wing Chun concepts for me would be, centreline, elbow driven movements and relaxation (which later develops to sensitivity and on/ off power), all of which are focused upon in the first section of SNT. Until you integrate footwork though they remain just that - concepts.

[LoneTiger108]

O.K. I'm starting it. The three most central, most basic of all Ving Tsun concepts. Let's weigh in first!!!

Shifting, Body Turning and Footwork :)

Funny that all three can be practised to a very very high level without even using the hands, so no I wouldn't say these things are the most central methods of Wing Chun. In fact, they are probably the most varied from family to family!


The forms teach (and are a signpost) for all three.

The Siu Nim Tao teaches the basic position and facing.

The Chum Kiu shows the 'gray area' in which the centreline can be shifted in order to gain power, distance and protection. There is limited footwork here, but it gives an idea.

The Mook Yan Jong has useful footwork, shows power generation in kicking and trips.

The Biu Jee has minor footwork additions, but shows trips, etc.

The Luk Dim Poon Kwan shows penetrating force from a side-on position and how to gain power and stay mobile with a long weapon.

The Baat Jam Dao form has some forward darting and great retreating steps. Both weapon forms have traditional horse stance and cat stances.

Best response so far, and it keeps things simple, as it should be. :)

[Jubei1]

Very hard to choose just 3 important concepts in VT but I feel that Wingchun Ian's 3 are very important. Having said that, I would have to say centerline, straight line, and facing to be important basic concepts of VT for me. All three concepts are also introduced to the student in the first part of SNT and before any type of foot work.

[Happy Tiger]

Shifting, Body Turning and Footwork :)

Funny that all three can be practised to a very very high level without even using the hands, so no I wouldn't say these things are the most central methods of Wing Chun. In fact, they are probably the most varied from family to family!



Best response so far, and it keeps things simple, as it should be. :)
That's a BINGO fer shur!
O.K. so... now we have a good idea of what these three concepts represent in action, and potential. What I'm most interested in here is 'formula'. We also have imput on how 'central' and important these ideas really are.That they actually revolve (closely) around the really basic things we all know...Lone Tiger hit the nail on the head. These are the three most varied ideas and concepts from family to family!This is gonna be good!!!

[trubblman]

O.K. I'm starting it. The three most central, most basic of all Ving Tsun concepts. Let's weigh in first!!!

I think the most central of VT concepts is winning fights. Every thing else is in support of that goal.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think the most central of VT concepts is winning fights. Every thing else is in support of that goal.

That's just crazy talk !!
;)

[LoneTiger108]

Here is a very basic look at how I see what you are attempting to discuss here, as to what good it will do, I have no idea!

1. Shifting - in relation to exact foot contact while shifting, I use the ball, centre and heel for various objectives. I have never been told that 'we only shift on this point', it was more like 'this for for such and such, and this point for such and such etc. I will leave others to argue otherwise.

2. Body Turning - I use three main body alignments in everything I do, again all having specific purpose. These have names I have mentioned plenty of times before, including Pinsun, and believe it or not each is very well represented in the Ip Man Wing Chun I learnt and shouldn't be viewed as another system completely imho.

3. Footwork - as my lineage is considered very traditional, I have always taught Muifa footwork prior to any mobility practise. This is very similar to many methods I have seen in other Southern Arts and it helps develop smooth transition. Later, once Chum Kiu begins, more structured strength building mobility is introduced.

It will be good to see other ideas too as I too think this is quite a decent subject to discuss.

[Happy Tiger]

So, we have generally agreed, these three ideas are concepts of mobility. As mentioned, they are not used the same way by all houses and by some not at all.
Shifting (che ma)is when, in YGKYM one slides ones torso left or right 'off centre' then back to centre with accorded foot turning and body turning but no stepping or sliding...feet stay where they are. There is actually quite a good bit on this in the book, Wing Chun Compendium by Wayne Belonoha.(pg. 133)In print this is so far the most I've seen written on the subject. Even though well described, it offers little of actual application warrant. In the book, Ip Man Ving Tsun 50 Anniversary there's a small blerb on pg. 129 referring to it in the context of 'shoulder path deflection'(sifu Donald Mak),((Leung Sheung))
The body 'shifts' in and out of central orientation without any stepping/sliding footwork.
Footwork, including foot turning, is the main process by which we move through space to aquire lines of attack, force, and any and all sorts of refference and alignment for advantage and closing.
Body turning is kinda the ghost part. The body turning on it's own axis either on it's own,or to facilitate the other two mobility methods.
In my opinion, these three things offer clues to the time line of VT technology, by their style, priority of execution and use.
Shifting, to me, is the most unusual mobility tool. In the HK houses, this one seems to be a deal breaker for many.
Some houses shift alot or in some cases (Leung Ting) always shift. Some houses do not shift at all.(Wong Shun Leung, Tsui Sheung Tin, William Cheung) others seem to fit it in some how and either will or won't depending on need. (Ip Ching, Ip Chun.) Why something this important isn't talked about more and made a bigger deal of I'm not sure.
In Hk no two houses are more classicaly opposite in this reguard than Leung Ting and William Cheung. They have both published training films and books pointing out the flaws in each others stand in this reguard, using demos of 'dos and don'ts of this idea. In my opinion theres a good reason for the mess. Next.

[LoneTiger108]

So, we have generally agreed, these three ideas are concepts of mobility. As mentioned, they are not used the same way by all houses and by some not at all.

I wouldn't use the term 'mobility', I like the word 'alignment' because some of the shifting/turning we do does not involve lifting the feet to step anywhere. It's rooted because in how I learnt these sorts of things was through YJKYM.

So, as an offer of something visual, and hopefully this will not be taken offensively by anyone considering what I am experiencing on my 'Drawing...' thread, please have a look at my clip and give any feedback/criticism

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uN1e_SvP3dQ&feature=plcp

I am showing (for the first time) a European cousin of mine how I trained the various body alignments in an interactive environment which played on the characters of the Snake & Crane. I clearly show the three main 'bodies' of Gin (Facing), Pin (Angled) and Juk (Sideways) San which is the foundation of everything I learnt to be honest.

So, PLEASE excuse the crazy outfit (it was a present honest!) and the ad-hoc nature of the clip. To give you an indication, the gent I am training with has represented Lee Shing Family for over 10 years in Europe, but had never trained like this before... so his previous impression was actually like the last comment on the Youtube page!

It is hard to be different :(

[Happy Tiger]

I wouldn't use the term 'mobility', I like the word 'alignment' because some of the shifting/turning we do does not involve lifting the feet to step anywhere. It's rooted because in how I learnt these sorts of things was through YJKYM.

So, as an offer of something visual, and hopefully this will not be taken offensively by anyone considering what I am experiencing on my 'Drawing...' thread, please have a look at my clip and give any feedback/criticism

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uN1e_SvP3dQ&feature=plcp

I am showing (for the first time) a European cousin of mine how I trained the various body alignments in an interactive environment which played on the characters of the Snake & Crane. I clearly show the three main 'bodies' of Gin (Facing), Pin (Angled) and Juk (Sideways) San which is the foundation of everything I learnt to be honest.

So, PLEASE excuse the crazy outfit (it was a present honest!) and the ad-hoc nature of the clip. To give you an indication, the gent I am training with has represented Lee Shing Family for over 10 years in Europe, but had never trained like this before... so his previous impression was actually like the last comment on the Youtube page!

It is hard to be different :(
Nice Vid, thank you:).Alignment is the goal, mobility the tool in my thinking. I understand your point though. I concider shifting and turning mobility/alignment just as much as stepping/sliding, specifically pointing out that shifting occurs without stepping/ sliding in any way alot of the time.Turning is more versitile in expression. I draw the line at the core basically. If it moves your core, your central axis,including on itself, I think of that as mobility. Another kind of mobility/alignment that I've purpously left out for the moment is 'angling'. Just for now. Angling is used in some houses in leau of shifting, others with.

[LoneTiger108]

Nice Vid? ;)

But what do you 'see'? Have you trained interactively before like that? Could you see what I was saying??

[LoneTiger108]

Nice Vid? ;)

But what do you 'see'? Have you trained interactively before like that? Could you see what I was saying??

[Happy Tiger]

Nice Vid? ;)

But what do you 'see'? Have you trained interactively before like that? Could you see what I was saying??
Yes, absolutely. In segong Tsui Sheung Tin style we are crazy for this issue and practice it alot. Same in segong Wong Shun Leung method.
P.S. I guess alignment can be interchangible with mobility from it's deffinition:The process of adjusting parts so that they are in proper relative position... and to be fair, alignment can be ajusted to a certain degree without any of the so far described processes.

[LoneTiger108]

Thanks for that.

You're right about the alignment, as with the turn of the shoulders the centre line shifts and the shoulder to fist triangle itself narrows. Mostly people do not understand this fme as they think you must face with equal shoulder lines all the time and the moment your sternum is facing away your centre is facing away?

For me these are simple body alignment methods.

[Happy Tiger]

What I've noticed is seemingly, VT more closely linked with Siu Lum and the period before or leading up to the Opera boats have certain qualities.Like stepping footwork, short body turning.No chi ma or shifting/sideling stance. Other VT shifts vigorously , steps less and slides with an empty (mun gerk) front foot into the fray. The main distinction IMO is the issue of shifting. Shifting is a simple thing that has large effect and consequence. It changes energy, focal point/refference, Once entered into must be recovered from and/or reoriented. Merging with an opponent with center body turning is different than with shifted body turning. I think I understand more why different houses have quite different treaties reguarding this one point. My pet theory is these latter are adaptations borne of the boat marine experience in combat. It has been mentioned that stepping foot work is to asure good footing on rough terrain. I think that shuffling/sliding foot work is an adaptation to the terrain of marine environments and hazzards. Shifting without moving your feet I can totally see as a development on the narrow foot ways and dock environs of Opera boat life. Deeper body turning, modification of camming and elbow as well. My opinion is this is where the 'female' style really defined her self. Many reports suggest two similar but distinct VT came from the Siu Lum. But as far as I can tell neither that relate closely to these two 'old world type', share these snake like shifting/sidling body turning shuffling habits.