Suicidal "Advance" Wing Chun Knife Defence techniques

[imperialtaichi]

Can this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hp-UoQ8Hel8

Handle this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ah_0gia4A0

If one teaches his students unrealistic techniques and gives the students false confidence, basically one is teaching the students to commit suicide.

[k gledhill]

Can this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hp-UoQ8Hel8

Handle this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ah_0gia4A0

If one teaches his students unrealistic techniques and gives the students false confidence, basically one is teaching the students to commit suicide.


Too stupid a clip to take seriously....

[Vajramusti]

Can this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hp-UoQ8Hel8

Handle this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ah_0gia4A0

If one teaches his students unrealistic techniques and gives the students false confidence, basically one is teaching the students to commit suicide.
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Shawn and his student has nice pajamas-custom made..I presume.(g)

joy chaudhuri

[trubblman]

How about this knife attack here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZQCRES3Ehw)? Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5fSZs3wvkA&feature=relmfu) is another refutation of hand to hand knife defense.

The pull back of the knife when someone touches the knife hand or arm is a simple and effective move. It's a defensive move but if someone has the knife hand tightly seized, that person is going to suffer a laceration to the palm.

The morale? Knife defenses are for the most part bull****, unless you got another knife or a more powerful weapon.

[anerlich]

Agree that was complete rubbish that would get you killed.

That guy's face looks weird, like he overplucked his eyebrows.

[Vajramusti]

Agree that was complete rubbish that would get you killed.

That guy's face looks weird, like he overplucked his eyebrows.
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Another example (Shawn Tei I think) imo should not be teaching wing chun.

joy chaudhuri

[Happy Tiger]

I've alway's had a soft spot in my heart for sifu Todd Shawn Tai. having said that, obviously, these solutions to knife attacks are...ehem...rubbish. But so are 90 % of other VT solutions to this aggressive, massive, death dealing attack. U know, all things being equal...street wise...I'll take a gun scene over a knife scene any day.The Mexican prayre man...;God, don't let me be killed by the knife;. The personallity of the knife is brutal in the extreme.I've survived two knife attacks in my life... both left me scarred and barely alive. And wiser.
http://youtu.be/D0jwpwzGpGQ
This is even more revealing than the first. Have any of you done the 'sharpie' test? Some things in VT ARE actually truly suicidal in this...such as jum sao (sinking hand) great for difusing power in a punch,,,with knife in hand, useless.Thanks...Great eye opener....Nice contact high.
P.S. Ya know, concidering the fact we have the baat Chum Dao in our line up... you'd think we'd be alittle more savy when it comes to knives.

[k gledhill]

I've alway's had a soft spot in my heart for sifu Todd Shawn Tai. having said that, obviously, these solutions to knife attacks are...ehem...rubbish. But so are 90 % of other VT solutions to this aggressive, massive, death dealing attack. U know, all things being equal...street wise...I'll take a gun scene over a knife scene any day.The Mexican prayre man...;God, don't let me be killed by the knife;. The personallity of the knife is brutal in the extreme.I've survived two knife attacks in my life... both left me scarred and barely alive. And wiser.
http://youtu.be/D0jwpwzGpGQ
This is even more revealing than the first. Have any of you done the 'sharpie' test? Some things in VT ARE actually truly suicidal in this...such as jum sao (sinking hand) great for difusing power in a punch,,,with knife in hand, useless.Thanks...Great eye opener....Nice contact high.
P.S. Ya know, concidering the fact we have the baat Chum Dao in our line up... you'd think we'd be alittle more savy when it comes to knives.

savy to knives ? crazy talk ;)

[Happy Tiger]

savy to knives ? crazy talk ;)
If I were an Aboriginal, that'd probably be my name...Crazy Talk.:)

[trubblman]

Ya know, concidering the fact we have the baat Chum Dao in our line up... you'd think we'd be alittle more savy when it comes to knives.

IMO the traditonal Wing Chun [ no not Traditional Wing Chun] knife tactics are non existent. Being that I practice some eskrima I would prefer to treat the BJD as I would Filipino sticks. The sticks can represent machetes or other big blade weapons. The BJD is just another big blade weapon to be handled accordingly.

[Phil Redmond]

Expect to get cut in any knife encounter. My take on a knife fight unless you're cornered and have no escape route is to run and hopefully find a longer weapon, car antennae, garbage can lid (well at least in NYC where there are still metal cans) etc. Most knife defense techniques are unrealistic.

[k gledhill]

We are knife fighters, our system is tactically guided by the BCD with different footwork than bare hands. This is why the knife footwork aka MOVING IN BIG STEPS to avoid being cut, is shown later. It can confuse a students footwork, who should be attacking the vertical axis as Chum Kil shows, Wooden dummy, not moving away intentionally from it, a common error seen in MANY, regardless of ideas.
The idea of standing front and center to the attack shown is revealing the lack of knife training, tactics, etc... at the very least, one should show an awareness to maintain distances intuitively, movement.

[Phil Redmond]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21Mc9IxpYRM

[Happy Tiger]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21Mc9IxpYRM
super cool vid.

[Happy Tiger]

We are knife fighters, our system is tactically guided by the BCD with different footwork than bare hands. This is why the knife footwork aka MOVING IN BIG STEPS to avoid being cut, is shown later. It can confuse a students footwork, who should be attacking the vertical axis as Chum Kil shows, Wooden dummy, not moving away intentionally from it, a common error seen in MANY, regardless of ideas.
The idea of standing front and center to the attack shown is revealing the lack of knife training, tactics, etc... at the very least, one should show an awareness to maintain distances intuitively, movement.
We, in all our familys, need to understand this more.

[Happy Tiger]

Expect to get cut in any knife encounter. My take on a knife fight unless you're cornered and have no escape route is to run and hopefully find a longer weapon, car antennae, garbage can lid (well at least in NYC where there are still metal cans) etc. Most knife defense techniques are unrealistic.
Yeah, you know I got thinking about this more and you're really right. I'm on the look out for found weapons all the time. Call me paranoid, but the habit is as natural as looking both ways. Using found weapons and working your environment is almost cliché in the movies but funny enough, not as often exploited in real life.

[Happy Tiger]

Clothing can be used against knives. But hang on. In the vid, the victim seems to have cloth in his hand but is helpless to use it. Ya'll probly gathered, I'm a vegetarian now but I wear an old leather jacket some times from the old days, from before I went tofu. The thing smells like a steak and a half smoked cigar. A leather jacket or some other fabric can help defend against a knife...maybe...

[wingchunIan]

I agree with Phil, empty handed against a knife you're gonna get cut. I don't teach anything different for knife defence than hand to hand fighting. IME you don't have time to decide whether the opponent is armed. Armed or not the best way of minimising damage in any conflict (after running away / avoidance) is to shut down the opponent asap.

[Phil Redmond]

We are knife fighters, our system is tactically guided by the BCD with different footwork than bare hands. This is why the knife footwork aka MOVING IN BIG STEPS to avoid being cut, is shown later. It can confuse a students footwork, who should be attacking the vertical axis as Chum Kil shows, Wooden dummy, not moving away intentionally from it, a common error seen in MANY, regardless of ideas.
The idea of standing front and center to the attack shown is revealing the lack of knife training, tactics, etc... at the very least, one should show an awareness to maintain distances intuitively, movement.
Unless you train against an aggressive opponent coming at you wildly and with intent to kill all the theory in the world won't help you. And neither will the theory of ANY martial art. To believe otherwise is delusional blind following. I can prove what I say very easily. I'm in NYC and can use a marker to prove my point to any man regardless of his style or ability and so can any untrained knife fighter.

[wingchunIan]

Oh and the original clip posted IMHO is typical of the total BS taught as knife defence in alot of martial arts schools. Works great in the class against a compliant partner who presents a lovely single attack but in the real world .......

[Happy Tiger]

P.s. remember, knives are the 'quiet ones'. Quick one the knife. Dead before you know it.(old British bare knuckle saying) If you read police reports of the old west, despite concern over 'dueling' issues ,and big shoot outs,knife fighting death's were much more common and seen hard to deal with.

[k gledhill]

Unless you train against an aggressive opponent coming at you wildly and with intent to kill all the theory in the world won't help you. And neither will the theory of ANY martial art. To believe otherwise is delusional blind following. I can prove what I say very easily. I'm in NYC and can use a marker to prove my point to any man regardless of his style or ability and so can any untrained knife fighter.

I agree, I asked my instructor when I started training about how to deal with a knife, he said not to take your eyes off it, as he picked up a pen and said try to take the pen or block his strikes....I was covered in ink ;).

[imperialtaichi]

Clothing can be used against knives. But hang on. In the vid, the victim seems to have cloth in his hand but is helpless to use it. Ya'll probly gathered, I'm a vegetarian now but I wear an old leather jacket some times from the old days, from before I went tofu. The thing smells like a steak and a half smoked cigar. A leather jacket or some other fabric can help defend against a knife...maybe...

The problem is not the leather jacket, or trash can lid or whatever; you CANNOT defend against knives. The reaction time of human is set physiologically, we cannot change that. On the receiving end of a guy stabbing you roughly twice per second repeatedly? Chance of a snowflake in hell.

You will simply die if you carry the mindset of "Self-Defense" against knives (like the victim on second clip). Two choices: run away (preferably), or take charge and attack the knife guy ("self-offense" as opposed to "self-defence") and go all out f*&^%ing psycho on the attacker and make him deal with you instead of you relying on your reaction time to deal with him. Sure you'll get cut, but you will have a higher chance to survive than receiving and defending.

In KL22, our very first goal is "破勢", which means "destroying the opponent's (physical and psychological) momentum". The mindset is "犯則立撲", which means "extinguish immediately upon intrusion". As soon as we perceive the slightest twitch from the attacker, we take the role of the aggressor and attack until the attacker is neutralised (extinguished) and smash him while he is down a few more times just to be sure.

Back in Guangzhou, we often train with the attacker charging in as such (tho empty-handed mostly). After all, it is what we see and deal with in that part of GZ as a daily ritual. Unfortunately, we cannot train our students like this publicly in Sydney, it will simply scare off most (peace loving people doing WC for fun), and becoming an insurance nightmare. So the best we can do is to educate people about reality of knives, hopefully scare them enough not to put themselves in such dangerous situations.

[imperialtaichi]

In KL22, our very first goal is "破勢", which means "destroying the opponent's (physical and psychological) momentum". The mindset is "犯則立撲", which means "extinguish immediately upon intrusion". As soon as we perceive the slightest twitch from the attacker, we take the role of the aggressor and attack until the attacker is neutralised (extinguished) and smash him while he is down a few more times just to be sure.

One of my training brothers, while working for a gang as a bouncer, was attacked by 6 men with machetes. He injured three, and killed the other three. While he pleaded "self defence", he got "man slaughter" (based on witnesses accounts he was chopping them even when they were down) because of the "excessive use of violence" and got 15yrs in a corrupt Chinese jail.

Reflection of the KL mindset.

[Hendrik]

The problem is not the leather jacket, or trash can lid or whatever; you CANNOT defend against knives. The reaction time of human is set physiologically, we cannot change that. On the receiving end of a guy stabbing you roughly twice per second repeatedly? Chance of a snowflake in hell.

You will simply die if you carry the mindset of "Self-Defense" against knives (like the victim on second clip). Two choices: run away (preferably), or take charge and attack the knife guy ("self-offense" as opposed to "self-defence") and go all out f*&^%ing psycho on the attacker and make him deal with you instead of you relying on your reaction time to deal with him. Sure you'll get cut, but you will have a higher chance to survive than receiving and defending.

In KL22, our very first goal is "破勢", which means "destroying the opponent's (physical and psychological) momentum". The mindset is "犯則立撲", which means "extinguish immediately upon intrusion". As soon as we perceive the slightest twitch from the attacker, we take the role of the aggressor and attack until the attacker is neutralised (extinguished) and smash him while he is down a few more times just to be sure.

Back in Guangzhou, we often train with the attacker charging in as such (tho empty-handed mostly). After all, it is what we see and deal with in that part of GZ as a daily ritual. Unfortunately, we cannot train our students like this publicly in Sydney, it will simply scare off most (peace loving people doing WC for fun), and becoming an insurance nightmare. So the best we can do is to educate people about reality of knives, hopefully scare them enough not to put themselves in such dangerous situations.



that is the reality one needs to face......

[Happy Tiger]

that is the reality one needs to face......
Hendrik...glad to see you weigh in on this subject.
to all.... the problem is... you have to do something...it's ****ing happining...if you don't have a weapon and action of equal or better value,,,Plus drew it out in time, all you have is what's there...and you. Get to it. saying your dead already...you're dead already.

[Happy Tiger]

The problem is not the leather jacket, or trash can lid or whatever; you CANNOT defend against knives. The reaction time of human is set physiologically, we cannot change that. On the receiving end of a guy stabbing you roughly twice per second repeatedly? Chance of a snowflake in hell.

You will simply die if you carry the mindset of "Self-Defense" against knives (like the victim on second clip). Two choices: run away (preferably), or take charge and attack the knife guy ("self-offense" as opposed to "self-defence") and go all out f*&^%ing psycho on the attacker and make him deal with you instead of you relying on your reaction time to deal with him. Sure you'll get cut, but you will have a higher chance to survive than receiving and defending.

In KL22, our very first goal is "破勢", which means "destroying the opponent's (physical and psychological) momentum". The mindset is "犯則立撲", which means "extinguish immediately upon intrusion". As soon as we perceive the slightest twitch from the attacker, we take the role of the aggressor and attack until the attacker is neutralised (extinguished) and smash him while he is down a few more times just to be sure.

Back in Guangzhou, we often train with the attacker charging in as such (tho empty-handed mostly). After all, it is what we see and deal with in that part of GZ as a daily ritual. Unfortunately, we cannot train our students like this publicly in Sydney, it will simply scare off most (peace loving people doing WC for fun), and becoming an insurance nightmare. So the best we can do is to educate people about reality of knives, hopefully scare them enough not to put themselves in such dangerous situations.
sounds like,your asuming completly suprise situation. Even more reason to see potential in environment and found weapon. Or your right, your skrewed.

[Happy Tiger]

that is the reality one needs to face......
lucky me I lived...twice.

[Hendrik]

Hendrik...glad to see you weigh in on this subject.
to all.... the problem is... you have to do something...it's ****ing happining...if you don't have a weapon and plan of equal or better value,,,Pulse drew it out in time, all you have is what's there...and you. Get to it.


I dont like this subject because I am a Buddhist, these stuffs are attracting these stuffs the more one talk about it. so, it is better to keep one away from it by not attracting it.

I dont like this subject because I have to pay my karma for the past life. even I win I lost. not interested to create more karma and suffer next life.


So, it is better to pray everyday for good and attract good. I rather we all pray ---- inhale love, exhale peace instead of fill the mind with these stuffs.


May everyone is in love, peace, and joy.

[Happy Tiger]

I respect...but it's different for others...their lives and responsibilities...

[Hendrik]

the older I am the more I look at the so called martial art and thinking. you must be kidding.

[Happy Tiger]

where ever you go...there you are

[Happy Tiger]

I agree, I asked my instructor when I started training about how to deal with a knife, he said not to take your eyes off it, as he picked up a pen and said try to take the pen or block his strikes....I was covered in ink ;).That's the Sharpie test. In Canada known as the Magic Marker Test.

[Happy Tiger]

One of my training brothers, while working for a gang as a bouncer, was attacked by 6 men with machetes. He injured three, and killed the other three. While he pleaded "self defence", he got "man slaughter" (based on witnesses accounts he was chopping them even when they were down) because of the "excessive use of violence" and got 15yrs in a corrupt Chinese jail.

Reflection of the KL mindset.
good for him. if you want to know how 99.9 % of people who faced a machete attack ended up, just go to a good 'gore' sight. They usually have a whole section devoted to stupid buggers and their encounters with machetes.

[Lee Chiang Po]

You are all missing the boat. You can not always expect to be attacked by someone with a knife or you would likely arm yourself. Fights, and anything involving a knife is going to be something you least expect. Otherwise you would not be there in the first place. Practicing to defend against a knife is really a good idea. Chances are you are going to get cut or stabbed, so what do you do? Do you stand there and take it like a man? Or do you try to defend yourself? If you decide to defend yourself, what do you do then? What if you can't run? What if he is faster than you and can outrun you? What if you are cornered? You have to make some sort of effort or you are certainly going to get it in the neck. So you get cut or stabbed in the process? At least you didn't stand there and let him do it.
I have been stabbed front and back. Cut in a few places and stabbed in a few more. Even been shot a couple of times. I have never been in a fight against a knife that I didn't get stuck or cut. It is pretty much going to happen. The idea here is to reduce the number and seriousness of the cuts you do recieve. It is common practice here to condemn the efforts of others, but I personally believe everyone should at least have some sort of hand against knife defense so that they can make that effort if they are place in that position.
When I have been cut or stabbed I was not even aware of the knife. Well, except once, and I did use my Tshirt wrapped around my hand to deflect and defend against the knife. I still got it right completely through my hand. Did quite a bit of damage, but I was able to then take control of his knife hand and punish him for it. That could easily have gone either way.
My recommendation. Learn several techniques that could possibly work for you and practice or train it. It might not save you, and you might not ever need it, but there is always that possibility and you would not want to be without at least some measure of defense.

[Happy Tiger]

You are all missing the boat. You can not always expect to be attacked by someone with a knife or you would likely arm yourself. Fights, and anything involving a knife is going to be something you least expect. Otherwise you would not be there in the first place. Practicing to defend against a knife is really a good idea. Chances are you are going to get cut or stabbed, so what do you do? Do you stand there and take it like a man? Or do you try to defend yourself? If you decide to defend yourself, what do you do then? What if you can't run? What if he is faster than you and can outrun you? What if you are cornered? You have to make some sort of effort or you are certainly going to get it in the neck. So you get cut or stabbed in the process? At least you didn't stand there and let him do it.
I have been stabbed front and back. Cut in a few places and stabbed in a few more. Even been shot a couple of times. I have never been in a fight against a knife that I didn't get stuck or cut. It is pretty much going to happen. The idea here is to reduce the number and seriousness of the cuts you do recieve. It is common practice here to condemn the efforts of others, but I personally believe everyone should at least have some sort of hand against knife defense so that they can make that effort if they are place in that position.
When I have been cut or stabbed I was not even aware of the knife. Well, except once, and I did use my Tshirt wrapped around my hand to deflect and defend against the knife. I still got it right completely through my hand. Did quite a bit of damage, but I was able to then take control of his knife hand and punish him for it. That could easily have gone either way.
My recommendation. Learn several techniques that could possibly work for you and practice or train it. It might not save you, and you might not ever need it, but there is always that possibility and you would not want to be without at least some measure of defense.
thanks for your honesty. but I don't think we're missing the boat

[imperialtaichi]

I dont like this subject because I am a Buddhist, these stuffs are attracting these stuffs the more one talk about it. so, it is better to keep one away from it by not attracting it.

I dont like this subject because I have to pay my karma for the past life. even I win I lost. not interested to create more karma and suffer next life.


So, it is better to pray everyday for good and attract good. I rather we all pray ---- inhale love, exhale peace instead of fill the mind with these stuffs.


May everyone is in love, peace, and joy.

Burying the head in the sand does not make anything go away. I choose to do martial arts; that's the path, that's the karma. If one doesn't want to learn about violence and how to deal with violence, might as well just do Fantasy Fu or go Cha-Cha instead (there's absolutely nothing wrong with that).

Not really into all those love, peace, joy, violence, anger, good vs evil stuff. I don't think. I just do.

[Happy Tiger]

Clothing can be used against knives. But hang on. In the vid, the victim seems to have cloth in his hand but is helpless to use it. Ya'll probly gathered, I'm a vegetarian now but I wear an old leather jacket some times from the old days, from before I went tofu. The thing smells like a steak and a half smoked cigar. A leather jacket or some other fabric can help defend against a knife...maybe...
Just for clarity, I don't mean just wearing one (duh). In hapkido, one of our basic weapons is the belt. Any cloth/fabric can be used like a belt for smothering, choking,snapping cross checking and so on. Not much help but if that's all ya got. One of my fellows got knocked right out with a snap across the throat. I was suprised. Remember the Thuggee?Masters of the silk in a land of parangs and wicked sharp weapons.This technology is quite advanced, and well tested. Jacket is usually better, seeing that your attacker might not wait for you to take your belt off and hitch yer pants up.

[Happy Tiger]

I've alway's had a soft spot in my heart for sifu Todd Shawn Tai. having said that, obviously, these solutions to knife attacks are...ehem...rubbish. But so are 90 % of other VT solutions to this aggressive, massive, death dealing attack. U know, all things being equal...street wise...I'll take a gun scene over a knife scene any day.The Mexican prayre man...;God, don't let me be killed by the knife;. The personallity of the knife is brutal in the extreme.I've survived two knife attacks in my life... both left me scarred and barely alive. And wiser.
http://youtu.be/D0jwpwzGpGQ
This is even more revealing than the first. Have any of you done the 'sharpie' test? Some things in VT ARE actually truly suicidal in this...such as jum sao (sinking hand) great for difusing power in a punch,,,with knife in hand, useless.Thanks...Great eye opener....Nice contact high.
P.S. Ya know, concidering the fact we have the baat Chum Dao in our line up... you'd think we'd be alittle more savy when it comes to knives.
In the part two clip, I honestly think this guy has a pretty reasonable logic in divieing up priority on how to aproach stratagy. It's worth another look.

[LoneTiger108]

You might be surprised but I'm kinda behind Hendrik on this one. Not that I am Buddhist, but I do understand the nature of discussion and as far as I can see on this thread the discussion has not even entered the realms of what we can do ourselves with our own blades, and we are already attempting to try to defend other more 'rage-like' attacks with 'daggers' and 'machetes'. :confused:

I have never once seen ANY OF YOU post anything visual that is based on how we use our Wing Chun blades, so in a sense that old saying "Wing Chun blades are never seen" really runs true!! The more you go into this discussion the messier it will get and in the end everyone will turn to the filipino daggers to supplement what they don't know about our own weapon. Sad really, but this has happend across Europe already.

There is a remoresless attitude that must be present when you train the knives, and this is where I feel Hendriks concern as he is a practising Buddhist. This remorseless behaviour did not originate in Shaolin, nor the Red Boats or the streets of Hong Kong!! It originated in Warfare, so I would be more interetsed to hear from people that have such experience, like Phil. How to 'switch on and off' is a military thing and not something for the hobby martial artist having fun in the class. Seems right then that the knives are closely guarded and never shown to outsiders.

In my day 'knife defense' meant that you learnt very specific sets that 'defended your own blades!' because there is nothing worse than having your knife taken away in the blink of an eye. Empty hand defense against a knife is non-existent in my learning. We called it method no.36... RUN!!!

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1167578]
I have never once seen ANY OF YOU post anything visual that is based on how we use our Wing Chun blades, so in a sense that old saying "Wing Chun blades are never seen" really runs true!! The more you go into this discussion the messier it will get and in the end everyone will turn to the filipino daggers to supplement what they don't know about our own weapon. Sad really, but this has happend across Europe already.
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Spencer- Ip man taught very few people the bot jam do- on purpose.The bjd training in Ip Man wing chun requires competence in stancing, moving, foot work, hand control, timing, distance control etc.
Many wing chun bjd showing off is just made up.

In my experience competent Gurkha kukhri work is another great usage of knives.

Facing someone with a knife is serious stuff. Shawn Tei's student's demo in his demo /vd is incompetent and can get her killed.
Of course as several have pointed in facing a knife you can expect some damage yourself.
This topic is silly stuff for a thread. Best to get competent direct instruction

joy chaudhuri

[Happy Tiger]

You might be surprised but I'm kinda behind Hendrik on this one. Not that I am Buddhist, but I do understand the nature of discussion and as far as I can see on this thread the discussion has not even entered the realms of what we can do ourselves with our own blades, and we are already attempting to try to defend other more 'rage-like' attacks with 'daggers' and 'machetes'. :confused:

I have never once seen ANY OF YOU post anything visual that is based on how we use our Wing Chun blades, so in a sense that old saying "Wing Chun blades are never seen" really runs true!! The more you go into this discussion the messier it will get and in the end everyone will turn to the filipino daggers to supplement what they don't know about our own weapon. Sad really, but this has happend across Europe already.

There is a remoresless attitude that must be present when you train the knives, and this is where I feel Hendriks concern as he is a practising Buddhist. This remorseless behaviour did not originate in Shaolin, nor the Red Boats or the streets of Hong Kong!! It originated in Warfare, so I would be more interetsed to hear from people that have such experience, like Phil. How to 'switch on and off' is a military thing and not something for the hobby martial artist having fun in the class. Seems right then that the knives are closely guarded and never shown to outsiders.

In my day 'knife defense' meant that you learnt very specific sets that 'defended your own blades!' because there is nothing worse than having your knife taken away in the blink of an eye. Empty hand defense against a knife is non-existent in my learning. We called it method no.36... RUN!!!if we have 'em, which we do, in the bad old days some one likely used 'em. Maybe on of those,'that's not a knife (whip) THESE are knives! Look I definitely appreciate the divine nature of non violence but some of us are involved directly in the preservation of life ,even to the forfeit of our own. I,m starting to realise why I don't see 'chuners in real self defence situations, saving any one or in the octagon. We just don't get involved,eh?Practice,practice, practice, cluck our tongues and frown at the barbarians.

[trubblman]

You are all missing the boat. You can not always expect to be attacked by someone with a knife or you would likely arm yourself. Practicing to defend against a knife is really a good idea. Chances are you are going to get cut or stabbed, so what do you do? Do you stand there and take it like a man? Or do you try to defend yourself? If you decide to defend yourself, what do you do then? What if you can't run? What if he is faster than you and can outrun you? What if you are cornered? You have to make some sort of effort or you are certainly going to get it in the neck. So you get cut or stabbed in the process? At least you didn't stand there and let him do it.

My recommendation. Learn several techniques that could possibly work for you and practice or train it. It might not save you, and you might not ever need it, but there is always that possibility and you would not want to be without at least some measure of defense.


I don't think anyone missed the point. Everything you wrote is a given. But if you are learning unarmed knife defense, learn effective unarmed knife defense. What was shown in the original video is more likely than not will get you killed much more quickly than an effective knife defense.

An effective knife defense may get you killed too. You just might have stand a better chance than doing what was shown in the Shawn's video.

The difference maybe an increase in your favor from 1% to say 9%.

Here's my critique of the defense.

#1 Too many moves by the defender.


#2 The attacker attacked in an wholly unrealistic manner.

[LoneTiger108]

We just don't get involved,eh?Practice,practice, practice, cluck our tongues and frown at the barbarians.

Personally, I couldn't frown at the barbarians because I am one!! It's all in my name given to me by my Sifu :cool:


Spencer- Ip man taught very few people the bot jam do- on purpose.

As has my Sifu, and his before him Joy. I too have never taught anyone yet. Now I have shared with some of the more experienced guys some tips, but actually teaching waponry like our knives is very very personal to me. I understand the reasons why not to as i too have had very oldskool tradtional values placed on my head!

Listen, my Sifu frowned at me for wanting to share our family pole form o I understand the restrictions of the loyal student!! I do not think for one second that showing off what we can do is going to get us anywhere. Happy Tiger can start as many threads as he lkes, but it will not change the fact that I am right.

NOBODY on here has shared their knife set, or even a glimpse of a single method from their knife set!!! So this discussion is pretty much left to the imagination and if you get scared at the thought of someone rushing you like a loon in an attempt to stab you with a littl toothpick (My Sifus words lol!) then I for one believe you are not ready for the Pole, let alone the knives!!!

John started the thread criticizing the clip, but still I have yet to see his 'Wing Chun' blades in any serious action...

[k gledhill]

Personally, I couldn't frown at the barbarians because I am one!! It's all in my name given to me by my Sifu :cool:



As has my Sifu, and his before him Joy. I too have never taught anyone yet. Now I have shared with some of the more experienced guys some tips, but actually teaching waponry like our knives is very very personal to me. I understand the reasons why not to as i too have had very oldskool tradtional values placed on my head!

Listen, my Sifu frowned at me for wanting to share our family pole form o I understand the restrictions of the loyal student!! I do not think for one second that showing off what we can do is going to get us anywhere. Happy Tiger can start as many threads as he lkes, but it will not change the fact that I am right.

NOBODY on here has shared their knife set, or even a glimpse of a single method from their knife set!!! So this discussion is pretty much left to the imagination and if you get scared at the thought of someone rushing you like a loon in an attempt to stab you with a littl toothpick (My Sifus words lol!) then I for one believe you are not ready for the Pole, let alone the knives!!!

John started the thread criticizing the clip, but still I have yet to see his 'Wing Chun' blades in any serious action...


I have posted clips with p Bayer using kinves v knives. Knives v pole. Think butcher.

[LoneTiger108]

I have posted clips with p Bayer using kinves v knives. Knives v pole. Think butcher.

I know Kev. But that's my point. Where are YOUR clips??

FWIW I have no fondness for comparing our knife methods to that of a butcher becaue that is just wrong!! ;)

[anerlich]

NOBODY on here has shared their knife set, or even a glimpse of a single method from their knife set!!!

Most lineages have clips of seniors doing their knife sets and applications on Youtube, or for sale on DVD. Search "butterfly sword video" on youtube, you'll find plenty. My lineage's set is easily findable ..unless you are a moron.

No one NEEDS to make a vid of themselves, particularly just to satisfy the demands of some insistent dweeb in Britain.

If you really think there is some conspiracy to keep this stuff hidden, you have your head up your a$$.

[Lee Chiang Po]

I don't think anyone missed the point. Everything you wrote is a given. But if you are learning unarmed knife defense, learn effective unarmed knife defense. What was shown in the original video is more likely than not will get you killed much more quickly than an effective knife defense.

An effective knife defense may get you killed too. You just might have stand a better chance than doing what was shown in the Shawn's video.

The difference maybe an increase in your favor from 1% to say 9%.

Here's my critique of the defense.

#1 Too many moves by the defender.


#2 The attacker attacked in an wholly unrealistic manner.

Let me take that back then. You are right. It was not realistic in any event. However, my point is or was that even though you are pretty much going to get cut, you have to make a showing. It is best that you develop or learn something that can be applied in such an event. A technique I have used a few times goes like this. I was trying to get a large fellow settled down and had already called the waitress to bring him and his girl a drink on the house. His buddy, who had been eyeing me throughout the entire fracus just stepped up and lunged at me with his right hand. He had a pocket knife and I almost got out of the way. Almost. It caught me in the belly, but only pierced about half an inch, but tore out again about 4 inches later. I felt the burn, but instantly grabbed his arm and wrist, shoving him backwards as hard as I could. We went back about 10 feet or so until he backed into a booth. He was forced backwards over the back corner of the booth and I kneed him real hard in the crotch, then I forced his wrist inwards until the knife fell out of his hand. I then let him go down toward the floor and kicked him full in the face. That was not pretty, and I seriously doubt one could have guessed what system I was using. It only required one real move until I forced the wrist inwards. So I guess that is 2 moves not counting the shoving action. A person can not counter as long as he is off balance. He can not regain his balance as long as you continue the action that took him off balance. If you can force him back into something that shares his personal space, he is completely helpless. However, if you do not continue the action and allow him to recover, he just might then gain the advantage and proceed to kill you.

[sanjuro_ronin]

DBMA: Die less often video series.
Get it, train it, drill it, understand it, have a better chance at surviving.

[Kevin73]

I didn't watch the whole video, but the first couple things I watched looked almost just like the FMA based stuff we were originally taught in the police academy against knives. It was riding the force as it came in before applying a joint lock.

[LoneTiger108]

Most lineages have clips of seniors doing their knife sets and applications on Youtube, or for sale on DVD. Search "butterfly sword video" on youtube, you'll find plenty. My lineage's set is easily findable ..unless you are a moron.

No one NEEDS to make a vid of themselves, particularly just to satisfy the demands of some insistent dweeb in Britain.

If you really think there is some conspiracy to keep this stuff hidden, you have your head up your a$$.

I almost forgot about this little treasure ;)

Firstly, your 'lineage' is who exactly? It was Rick Spains 'Hung Suen' group wasn't it? I noticed that thread die a quick death...

And your search suggestion seems a little 'dweeby' too

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=butterfly+sword+video&oq=butterfly+sword+video&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_nf=1&gs_l=youtube.3...547.5969.0.6594.21.17.0.2.2.0.375 .1780.0j4j3j1.8.0.

Secondly, I do not believe in conspiracies I simply believe in truth and the truth is you just can't help yourself can you? You have to throw at least one insult in your posts directed at me for your own desperate pleasure. I can do the same all day long if that's all you want to do here.

If that's what rocks your boat 'Opera' MMA boy, please continue!! :D :D ;)

[anerlich]

It was Rick Spains 'Hung Suen' group wasn't it? I noticed that thread die a quick death...


It died a quick death because there was nothing to it. I answered the questions posed. Is there something you feel I am hiding or need to explain?


I can do the same all day long if that's all you want to do here.


Your choice.


And your search suggestion seems a little 'dweeby' too


I was considering the target audience, yourself.


If that's what rocks your boat 'Opera' MMA boy

"rocks your red boat" would have been cleverer, but I'm mindful of your limitations.