PDA

View Full Version : Drawing the Wing Chun Blades



LoneTiger108
04-22-2012, 11:08 AM
I find it interesting that someones simple clip of knife defence be ridiculed when there is very little evidence porduced by anyone here that they know what they're doing with our beloved 'Wing Chun' blades.

So, I would like to ask all of you a very simple question...

If you have been lucky enough to learn first-hand any knife work from your Wing Chun Sifu, whether that be basic drills or the whole of Ip Mans Eight Chopping Knife set, was there any time that you learnt:

1. How to defend your own blades? (ie. to stop them being taken from you)

2. How to draw your knives? (ie. using a sheath/scabbard)

I think it would be an eye-opener for all of us to really see who has gone to such lengths in their training, because as much as I knoww I can ramble on for England about many thing,s I have been a lover of weaponry snce I was a child and I find it heart breaking to think that our 2 weapons are being lost because we either choose not to train them because of our personal beliefs and direction in life, or we simply have never been taught in the first place!!

Time to step up gents, and ladies if there are any!!! :)

YouKnowWho
04-22-2012, 11:36 AM
1. How to defend your own blades?
2. How to draw your knives? (ie. using a sheath/scabbard)
I like to hold my dagger in reverse hold. This way I can hide my dagger behind my forearm arm. Since it can be part of my forearm, it's diffiult for my opponent to take it away.

http://search.babylon.com/imageres.php?iu=http://www.jayfisher.com/_borders/KnifeGripRGEO.jpg&ir=http://www.jayfisher.com/Knife_Grip_Styles_Hand_Sizing.htm&ig=http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSESzPAyhjNv1kEggjp1AO4fkkdbJzfp 2NPxT2onhrCUC_6GKEp6kySvStF&h=401&w=497&q=reverse+knife+hold&babsrc=SP_ss

I like to hide my dagger in my boots, this is the way that I will draw my knife.

- left hand grab on my opponent's neck (get in clinching - mantis arm).
- knee strike at his belly (this will make my leg to bend and easier for me to reach to my dagger in my boots).
- pull out dagger from my boots.
- stab it into my opponent's heart.

One of my favor knife fight move is the "S" cut. You use horizontal cut at your opponent's belly first, when he dodges (move his body back - this may make him to lean forward to expose his neck), you reverse your move and use another horizontal cut at his throat.

LoneTiger108
04-22-2012, 11:47 AM
I like to hold my dagger in reverse hold. This way I can hide my dagger behind my forearm arm. Since it can be part of my forearm, it's diffiult for my opponent to take it away.

But Wing Chun do not specialize in 'dagger' methods or boot knives so I guess the simiarities end there.

Was you 'taught these methods by a Wing Chun Sifu?' Because from what you are saying, it doesn't sound like you were imho. Not that this is an issue because we can all learn from eachother, but I want to also hear from the Wing Chun students and Sifus here ;)

Mantis man by any chance?

YouKnowWho
04-22-2012, 11:56 AM
The long or short weapon should not have any "style boundary". The day that you pick up knife in your hand, whether you are a WC guy of a mantis guy, it won't matter much. You just want to stab your knife into your opponent's heart.

trubblman
04-22-2012, 12:15 PM
I find it interesting that someones simple clip of knife defence be ridiculed when there is very little evidence porduced by anyone here that they know what they're doing with our beloved 'Wing Chun' blades.

So, I would like to ask all of you a very simple question...

If you have been lucky enough to learn first-hand any knife work from your Wing Chun Sifu, whether that be basic drills or the whole of Ip Mans Eight Chopping Knife set, was there any time that you learnt:

1. How to defend your own blades? (ie. to stop them being taken from you)

2. How to draw your knives? (ie. using a sheath/scabbard)

I think it would be an eye-opener for all of us to really see who has gone to such lengths in their training, because as much as I knoww I can ramble on for England about many thing,s I have been a lover of weaponry snce I was a child and I find it heart breaking to think that our 2 weapons are being lost because we either choose not to train them because of our personal beliefs and direction in life, or we simply have never been taught in the first place!!

Time to step up gents, and ladies if there are any!!! :)


I dont carry VT blades. I believe they are outdated and clumsy ( and in Maryland USA where I live) may earn one a trip to the jail. For real world circa 2012 I have a number of tactical folders that I usually carry. I ll pit my tactical folder against a BJD any day.

ShaolinDan
04-22-2012, 01:03 PM
I dont carry VT blades. I believe they are outdated and clumsy ( and in Maryland USA where I live) may earn one a trip to the jail. For real world circa 2012 I have a number of tactical folders that I usually carry. I ll pit my tactical folder against a BJD any day.

Well, the butterfly knife certainly isn't legal to carry most places, or easy to conceal...but taking carrying practicality out of the equation-- 18" blade beats 5" blade for sure.

Training real practicality (like drawing) with butterfly knives probably doesn't make sense martially today, but it's a neat skill to learn/preserve. Drawing the broadsword has never been a part of our practice, but I think it would be neat if it was.
Cool thread concept, LT.

Vajramusti
04-22-2012, 02:11 PM
The bot jam do trains the hands, footwork and coordination specially for wing chun moves and it helps with other short weapons usage as well including escrima sticks.

joy chaudhuri

free2flow
04-22-2012, 03:59 PM
I dont carry VT blades. I believe they are outdated and clumsy ( and in Maryland USA where I live) may earn one a trip to the jail. For real world circa 2012 I have a number of tactical folders that I usually carry.
I agree.....

imperialtaichi
04-22-2012, 07:03 PM
In KL22, as mentioned before, our empty handed form IS the knife form.

Although the WC Butterfly Knives gives the edge, we don't use the BJD specificly, but the principle applies to any edged or pointed short weapon we can get our hands on.

I have a clip that I made some months ago:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XE6CeDq7B08

Not a real knife fight, but a "stylised demo". The first 3 minutes basically discourages people the get into knife fights (totally boring, but its the right thing to do). The technical bits starts after the 3min mark so just fast forward to that.

The movement I used was the very first of the 22 movements, the "Circling Buddha Palm" of the empty hand form. Of course, in real life it would not be this stylised, but the principle of getting out of the way and controlling the opponent while slashing and stabbing was illustrated. Btw, there are another 21 moves I can do ;)

The KL22 principle is not to strike the opponent "out", but to trap the opponent "in" so we can continue out "controlled" assault on the opponent until he is neutralized.

Phil Redmond
04-22-2012, 08:11 PM
I dont carry VT blades. I believe they are outdated and clumsy ( and in Maryland USA where I live) may earn one a trip to the jail. For real world circa 2012 I have a number of tactical folders that I usually carry. I ll pit my tactical folder against a BJD any day.
If your tactical folder is shorter that a BJD I don't think so. I say this from experience in real life. Not using a Do but a Marine Corps K Bar in Vietnam.

k gledhill
04-22-2012, 08:18 PM
http://youtu.be/YW8nckzt-Bc two blades and a tactical objective. Not pirate sword fighting like the movies.

Happy Tiger
04-22-2012, 09:13 PM
Sweet. Knives are one thing...BJD are freakin meat cleavers!!!The damage potential and guarding dynamics are incredible...Lone Tiger, got any clips to share?P.S. I' ve only started one thread that I know of. :)

trubblman
04-22-2012, 09:55 PM
If your tactical folder is shorter that a BJD I don't think so. I say this from experience in real life. Not using a Do but a Marine Corps K Bar in Vietnam.

Keep in mind, he included drawing. I believe I can draw and close before he gets his out. Also I am basing my opinion on what I have seen how people used BJDs, not very impressive, even those who purport to be masters.

LoneTiger108
04-23-2012, 03:15 AM
Sweet. Knives are one thing...BJD are freakin meat cleavers!!!The damage potential and guarding dynamics are incredible...


If your tactical folder is shorter that a BJD I don't think so. I say this from experience in real life. Not using a Do but a Marine Corps K Bar in Vietnam.

This is exactly what I am trying to get at. Now I have a massive respect for anyone that takes on the challenge of learning knife methods, whether that's 3" or 20", but we have to promote our specific blades over little dagger methods people!!

And our Wing Chun blades are pretty awesome imho :)


Lone Tiger, got any clips to share?P.S. I' ve only started one thread that I know of. :)

Firstly, my comment about the critics on here was aimed more so at John (imperialtaichi) as from what I recall his 'dagger' clip of Kulo 22 methods was far removed from Wing Chun knife work too. And he has re-posted that here explaininng a little more why that is, which is cool of him.

And yes, I do have a few clips and once I dig them out of my older PC I will share my 'Drawing' one for you all. If I can see the point in doing so (forgive the pun!) I was kind of looking to see if anyone else has answers for my questions first...

LoneTiger108
04-23-2012, 03:16 AM
Keep in mind, he included drawing. I believe I can draw and close before he gets his out. Also I am basing my opinion on what I have seen how people used BJDs, not very impressive, even those who purport to be masters.

Care to share a clip of your drawing method?

If you will I will too ;)

Phil Redmond
04-23-2012, 06:03 AM
Keep in mind, he included drawing. I believe I can draw and close before he gets his out. Also I am basing my opinion on what I have seen how people used BJDs, not very impressive, even those who purport to be masters.
Ok, I get the drawing part. You'd probably be faster with a shorter blade. Also, there are some good BJD people.

sanjuro_ronin
04-23-2012, 06:17 AM
My opinion of blade work as it translates to hand:
Hand goes to blade NOT blade goes to hand.
Yes I know this tends to go against what we are taught in WC and most certainly in Kali and other FMA BUT from MY EXPERIENCE:
Taking how you fight empty handed and adding a blade works better than taking how the typical blade guy fights and using that in empty hands.

trubblman
04-23-2012, 06:30 AM
Care to share a clip of your drawing method?

If you will I will too ;)

I ll put one up on you tube.

k gledhill
04-23-2012, 06:47 AM
VT Knives add another forearm of length to distances. We are able to attack from a greater distance to the nearest target with the nearest edge. We can cover greater distances to penetrate defenses and equally move away from wild sword swings at us while combining defensive measures.
Some systems adopted the greater distances for blindside fighting as knives show, but loose the distances for bare hands. Sure a fist/finger may reach but it wont do it with the SLT elbow ideas. So no lin sil di da with the leading arm alone, always two hands fighting one aka control hit. This control hit puts you at a disadvantage because you're compelled to chase/ block an arm to make a punch. Reacting, rather than utilization of striking attacks that also defend, one leading arm at a time, allowing attacking with strikes that cut across intercepting lines of defense , etc...
Subtle but HUGE in terms of speed fighting, you become empowered to strike a guy with two arms and move and angle to dominate them, rather than block n hit as they wail in with two hands. Iow you are empowered to make them the reactors.

In regards to 'drawing' a blade faster, etc... a simple scabbard customization will make a drawing 'up' redundant. A trick guys did for six shooter fast draws was to cut away the leading edge of the holster leaving only a small amount to keep the barrel tip seated. The masters of the quickdraw then only had to 'tilt' the gun from a holster at the target , not draw it up and out, then acquire the target.....very simple custom that made the draw instant. Combat version of BCD isnt hard to imagine.:D

Vajramusti
04-23-2012, 07:16 AM
My opinion of blade work as it translates to hand:
Hand goes to blade NOT blade goes to hand.
Yes I know this tends to go against what we are taught in WC and most certainly in Kali and other FMA BUT from MY EXPERIENCE:
Taking how you fight empty handed and adding a blade works better than taking how the typical blade guy fights and using that in empty hands.
-------------------------------------------------------
Good points Sanjuro BUT WC and FMA are exactly opposite on hand/blade relationships.
In WC you first need to have control over the body and the hands- otherwise the weapon can control uou.

joy chaudhuri

k gledhill
04-23-2012, 07:19 AM
True the elbow/body unity ideas need to be solid or errors of knives added to early will detract from development. Plus the differences in footwork.

LoneTiger108
04-23-2012, 09:42 AM
Not that I aint enjoying the conversations gents, but has anybody actually answered my questions?


... was there any time that you learnt:

1. How to defend your own blades? (ie. to stop them being taken from you)

2. How to draw your knives? (ie. using a sheath/scabbard)


Ths is really addresing those that have only practisd the form from Ip Man, as there tends to be no opening set or scabbard use. I find this strange because most decent knife sellers sell a scabbard with the blades :confused:

Every demo I have ever seen already has the knives 'drawn', mainly held over the shoulder like some kind of farmer, then a lifting leg work before separating the blades, double chop and away they go!

Has anyone here actually got a clip of ANY demo of themselves using their knives? And if you have, are you willing to share just a little?

sanjuro_ronin
04-23-2012, 09:47 AM
Not that I aint enjoying the conversations gents, but has anybody actually answered my questions?



Ths is really addresing those that have only practisd the form from Ip Man, as there tends to be no opening set or scabbard use. I find this strange because most decent knife sellers sell a scabbard with the blades :confused:

Every demo I have ever seen already has the knives 'drawn', mainly held over the shoulder like some kind of farmer, then a lifting leg work before separating the blades, double chop and away they go!

Has anyone here actually got a clip of ANY demo of themselves using their knives? And if you have, are you willing to share just a little?

A valid question but the reason you see most forms start with the drawn knives is because that is how it starts.
The whole "draw/kill" that is present in some systems ( most notably Kenjutsu) is NOT the prevalent in TCMA, at least not from what I have seen in forms.

Of course, just like it was one of the "secret" teaching in kenjutsu, perhaps that is so in Chinese fencing too.

Phil Redmond
04-23-2012, 11:39 AM
Not that I aint enjoying the conversations gents, but has anybody actually answered my questions?



Ths is really addresing those that have only practisd the form from Ip Man, as there tends to be no opening set or scabbard use. I find this strange because most decent knife sellers sell a scabbard with the blades :confused:

Every demo I have ever seen already has the knives 'drawn', mainly held over the shoulder like some kind of farmer, then a lifting leg work before separating the blades, double chop and away they go!

Has anyone here actually got a clip of ANY demo of themselves using their knives? And if you have, are you willing to share just a little?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wm2_G6DXYtQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tujQ1XUVWsI

Happy Tiger
04-23-2012, 12:33 PM
Fer Gawd sakes, somebody draw! The heat's killin us an Ah only gots a half hour fer lunch

Vajramusti
04-23-2012, 12:57 PM
I find it interesting that someones simple clip of knife defence be ridiculed when there is very little evidence porduced by anyone here that they know what they're doing with our beloved 'Wing Chun' blades.

So, I would like to ask all of you a very simple question...

If you have been lucky enough to learn first-hand any knife work from your Wing Chun Sifu, whether that be basic drills or the whole of Ip Mans Eight Chopping Knife set, was there any time that you learnt:

1. How to defend your own blades? (ie. to stop them being taken from you)

2. How to draw your knives? (ie. using a sheath/scabbard)

I think it would be an eye-opener for all of us to really see who has gone to such lengths in their training, because as much as I knoww I can ramble on for England about many thing,s I have been a lover of weaponry snce I was a child and I find it heart breaking to think that our 2 weapons are being lost because we either choose not to train them because of our personal beliefs and direction in life, or we simply have never been taught in the first place!!

Time to step up gents, and ladies if there are any!!! :)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Re #1. First you have to hold them right. Then you have to understand the role of the joints in connection with that hold. You have to understand your balance and your footwork and line control.
Among other things- what is the big deal. Of course, you are going to tell me that Lee Shing learned the bjd from Ip man himself... because Ip man gave him a pair of knives etc/

#2 Draw your knives? In the wild wild west/east? The knives should be in your hands already. You are making a point of some sort about drawing the knives,,what is your point? Most scabbards sold these days are pretty bad. If you want to work on "drawing" (?) have them custom made.


joy chaudhuri

anerlich
04-23-2012, 03:18 PM
Among other things- what is the big deal.

Exactly. Another storm in a teacup. Someone from Britain has a chip on his shoulder.

Eric_H
04-23-2012, 04:26 PM
A valid question but the reason you see most forms start with the drawn knives is because that is how it starts.
The whole "draw/kill" that is present in some systems ( most notably Kenjutsu) is NOT the prevalent in TCMA, at least not from what I have seen in forms.

Of course, just like it was one of the "secret" teaching in kenjutsu, perhaps that is so in Chinese fencing too.

Not that I am yet an authority on all Chinese bladework, but from what I have trained and researched, "drawing the sword" has a far different meaning in Chinese sword work than the gun slinging type of definition seen in the Japanese sword styles.

Haven't even touched the WC weapons from HFY yet, looking forward to if there's commonalities in it to the broadsword work I've experienced.

Happy Tiger
04-23-2012, 05:21 PM
Not that I am yet an authority on all Chinese bladework, but from what I have trained and researched, "drawing the sword" has a far different meaning in Chinese sword work than the gun slinging type of definition seen in the Japanese sword styles.

Haven't even touched the WC weapons from HFY yet, looking forward to if there's commonalities in it to the broadsword work I've experienced.
Baat Jam Dao Iaido...that's actually starting to sound pretty cool...elegant

Happy Tiger
04-23-2012, 05:27 PM
Not that I am yet an authority on all Chinese bladework, but from what I have trained and researched, "drawing the sword" has a far different meaning in Chinese sword work than the gun slinging type of definition seen in the Japanese sword styles.

Haven't even touched the WC weapons from HFY yet, looking forward to if there's commonalities in it to the broadsword work I've experienced.
Quick question, my friend. Does HFY VT have luk dim bow kwun? Do U guys have any weapons not typical of th HK scene?

Happy Tiger
04-23-2012, 05:48 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Re #1. First you have to hold them right. Then you have to understand the role of the joints in connection with that hold. You have to understand your balance and your footwork and line control.
Among other things- what is the big deal. Of course, you are going to tell me that Lee Shing learned the bjd from Ip man himself... because Ip man gave him a pair of knives etc/

#2 Draw your knives? In the wild wild west/east? The knives should be in your hands already. You are making a point of some sort about drawing the knives,,what is your point? Most scabbards sold these days are pretty bad. If you want to work on "drawing" (?) have them custom made.


joy chaudhuri
Why work on the draw...?you should have your knives out already???Why do you think there IS the 'quick draw'...Iaido... That's a big area of death to the looser. Then and now. Even the argument for and against gun ownership and relevance often revolve around this issue..Me...I just walk around with my weapon drawn all the time...saves a lot of problems and hurt feelings!

Eric_H
04-24-2012, 01:06 AM
Quick question, my friend. Does HFY VT have luk dim bow kwun? Do U guys have any weapons not typical of th HK scene?

Yes, we have the long pole and the short pole (Lung Fu Gwan). Dummy forms with weapons as well.

Don't know of any other weapons, but never thought to ask.

LoneTiger108
04-24-2012, 02:35 AM
Re #1. First you have to hold them right. Then you have to understand the role of the joints in connection with that hold. You have to understand your balance and your footwork and line control.

Okay now that's more what I was looking for, at least you have answered my questions Joy to the best of your knowledge. Thanks.


Among other things- what is the big deal. Of course, you are going to tell me that Lee Shing learned the bjd from Ip man himself... because Ip man gave him a pair of knives etc/

But then you do this? Have I mentioned that? No.

My knife practise is my own, as is I suppose everybody elses here by the sound of it. BUT, I was taught these methods by my Sifu. And yes, My Sigung did receive a pair of knives from Ip Man, as did a few others.

That's not my point. My Sigungs knife practise, and pole for that matter, was pretty okay before he met Ip Man. Learning from Ng Jung So and the Fungs would have that effect, but he still wanted to follow Ip Man as he knew how special he was. Have you heard the story of him pole dueling with Lok Yiu? Being introduced to Ip Man by Jiu Wan? All this is true as far as I know. I also know other facts about his knife methods that are not so public and I want to help by sharing a little more. That's all.

It seems that some guys have a problem with this. But that's their issue.


Exactly. Another storm in a teacup. Someone from Britain has a chip on his shoulder.

See what I mean? If he aint calling me a dweeb, he claims I have a chip on my shoulder. Well, if I have a chip, he has an entire chip shop resting on his hunky shoulders lol!! He actually made me laugh out loud this morning on the train with this little gem.


#2 Draw your knives? In the wild wild west/east? The knives should be in your hands already. You are making a point of some sort about drawing the knives,,what is your point? Most scabbards sold these days are pretty bad. If you want to work on "drawing" (?) have them custom made.

My point is this Joy.

Anybody who is serious about weaponry training, regardles of what system them learn, will learn about blade maintenance basics and at least know how to care for their blades. And what you are telling me is we shouldn't have a scabbard because your 'knives should be out all the time'??

All I am suggesting here is, if you have learnt without a scabbard that's fine, but I didn't. I learnt a whole array of things to do with the blades before they are even drawn. And no, I'm not saying my Sigung learnt secret sh1t from Ip Man, but I am saying he knew his weaponry better than most imho because I have seen the evidence first hand with some of his eldest students.

And I for some reason can not start a thread on a subject that interests me without being teased and riduculed by people that should know better??

Why not everybody just share what you know or do not know about the subject of defending and drawing your blades?

LoneTiger108
04-24-2012, 02:38 AM
Fer Gawd sakes, somebody draw! The heat's killin us an Ah only gots a half hour fer lunch

Ah! I have my clip ready :D

And I'm still willing to share!! I have to say thanks too, to Phil for at least putting up some examples of his blade work, even if it is totally different to my own.
http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1167717&postcount=24
He shares, and that's why I am here too.

Believe it or not

GlennR
04-24-2012, 02:43 AM
Ah! I have my clip ready :D

We're all huddled around the PC in anticipation!

LoneTiger108
04-24-2012, 03:28 AM
We're all huddled around the PC in anticipation!

:confused: I have no idea why?

The clip I have only lasts a second or two! :o

LFJ
04-24-2012, 03:36 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wm2_G6DXYtQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tujQ1XUVWsI

Just a response to something in your first video, which I've seen you say on other clips as well concerning the placement of taansau and the WSL method.

First of all, taan is a verb, not a noun. So it is describing an action and not just a structure or static position. The concept is to get on top of your opponent whilst moving in so it moves in a forward arch. WSL described the action as two conflicting villages at the top of neighboring mountains with a valley between. One village shot a cannon straight toward the other and the ball dropped into the valley. The other village aimed their cannon slightly upward and fired in an arch from low to high and the ball came down on the other village and destroyed it.

That is the taansau action. It is not just the position of your hand being up in front of your face or at a lower level. The action will pass through both. It's a verb not a noun. You see WSL's taansau stop up high on the mukyanjong because the arms of the dummy are in a fixed position and cannot move.

Finally, the side gamsau action from Siunimtau is not a block but defense against wrist grabs and arm drags and locks from the side. The video of WSL showing the block is for the one to the front. It's just like the movement at the end of Chamkiu. He shows the application for all three gamsau actions in the same video.

Wayfaring
04-24-2012, 08:49 AM
First of all, taan is a verb, not a noun. So it is describing an action and not just a structure or static position. The concept is to get on top of your opponent whilst moving in so it moves in a forward arch. WSL described the action as two conflicting villages at the top of neighboring mountains with a valley between. One village shot a cannon straight toward the other and the ball dropped into the valley. The other village aimed their cannon slightly upward and fired in an arch from low to high and the ball came down on the other village and destroyed it.


First of all, LOL at this thread and people arguing over drawing wing chun blades. That's about as useful in self-defense as perfecting the quick draw on a sharp lollipop stick, which I would not entrust to people showing the kind of logic present on this thread.

I think if we're telling village stories here a more appropriate one with respect to drawing wing chun blades would be - One village aligns all their warriors out in the entrance gate in a perfect phalanx formation with spears. The other village loads their warriors into an AH-64D Apache Longbow helicopter, then mows down the first village with 30mm M230 chain gun fire.

If you want to study the WCK blades to complete your training, preserve the culture, translate the economy of movement to your open hand fighting, great. But pulease do not carry your blades out in public under your ninja cape lest someone run you over with their car while you are quick-drawing.

And LFJ, just to contribute to your English grammar lesson here, d1ckh3@d is a noun. Now go look in the mirror and say it to yourself 10x fast.

:D:D

LFJ
04-24-2012, 09:09 AM
I titled the post being off topic here because I was not at all talking about drawing WC blades. And the feuding villages story was not mine, but one told by WSL to describe the action of taansau. Finally, taan is not an English word, so its part of speech actually has to do with Chinese grammar. ;)

Phil Redmond
04-24-2012, 11:45 AM
Just a response to something in your first video, which I've seen you say on other clips as well concerning the placement of taansau and the WSL method.

First of all, taan is a verb, not a noun. So it is describing an action and not just a structure or static position. The concept is to get on top of your opponent whilst moving in so it moves in a forward arch. WSL described the action as two conflicting villages at the top of neighboring mountains with a valley between. One village shot a cannon straight toward the other and the ball dropped into the valley. The other village aimed their cannon slightly upward and fired in an arch from low to high and the ball came down on the other village and destroyed it.

That is the taansau action. It is not just the position of your hand being up in front of your face or at a lower level. The action will pass through both. It's a verb not a noun. You see WSL's taansau stop up high on the mukyanjong because the arms of the dummy are in a fixed position and cannot move.

Finally, the side gamsau action from Siunimtau is not a block but defense against wrist grabs and arm drags and locks from the side. The video of WSL showing the block is for the one to the front. It's just like the movement at the end of Chamkiu. He shows the application for all three gamsau actions in the same video.
Tan means disperse or spread. Where you disperse the energy can vary. It can be in the middle gate or like I did in the upper gate.

Phil Redmond
04-24-2012, 11:48 AM
I titled the post being off topic here because I was not at all talking about drawing WC blades. And the feuding villages story was not mine, but one told by WSL to describe the action of taansau. Finally, taan is not an English word, so its part of speech actually has to do with Chinese grammar. ;)
Though it's not an English word it can be translated into English like I did in my last post.

LFJ
04-24-2012, 10:35 PM
Tan means disperse or spread. Where you disperse the energy can vary. It can be in the middle gate or like I did in the upper gate.

Yet you say in your videos that it should be done up high and not lower? It may be the way you do it in your TWC but you were talking about WSL as some sort of authority to explain your method, but he didn't do it like you. You've inaccurately used him to explain TWC concepts several times, but I could take any part of TWC Siunimtau and explain why WSL didn't do it like that, like wusau in front of the face.

Also your arm is at about a 90° angle with the fingers almost straight up. WSL never did taansau like that. It's always driving forward into the opponent with the fingers directing the movement from start to finish. It would appear that if you go straight up against a much stronger force from a swinging hook punch that sort of taansau would collapse.

Of course this is just a different perspective. Your way may well work for you, but I'm just commenting on how WSL's method is not quite as you describe or demonstrate. It may be that I don't understand the TWC method, but equally I would say you have not understood WSL's and can't use him to validate your way.


Though it's not an English word it can be translated into English like I did in my last post.

Doesn't matter. I didn't. Wayfaring was just trying to be a d!ck about me giving an English grammar lesson, when I was only clarifying the part of speech of a Chinese word to define the action it describes. He just seems annoyed by this entire thread concept, since he didn't accurately address anything I said.

k gledhill
04-24-2012, 11:01 PM
Yet you say in your videos that it should be done up high and not lower? It may be the way you do it in your TWC but you were talking about WSL as some sort of authority to explain your method, but he didn't do it like you. You've inaccurately used him to explain TWC concepts several times, but I could take any part of TWC Siunimtau and explain why WSL didn't do it like that, like wusau in front of the face.

Also your arm is at about a 90° angle with the fingers almost straight up. WSL never did taansau like that. It's always driving forward into the opponent with the fingers directing the movement from start to finish. It would appear that if you go straight up against a much stronger force from a swinging hook punch that sort of taansau would collapse.

Of course this is just a different perspective. Your way may well work for you, but I'm just commenting on how WSL's method is not quite as you describe or demonstrate. It may be that I don't understand the TWC method, but equally I would say you have not understood WSL's and can't use him to validate your way.



Doesn't matter. I didn't. Wayfaring was just trying to be a d!ck about me giving an English grammar lesson, when I was only clarifying the part of speech of a Chinese word to define the action it describes. He just seems annoyed by this entire thread concept, since he didn't accurately address anything I said.

One word for wayfaring - Chode ;)

LoneTiger108
04-25-2012, 04:15 AM
I start a thread to talk about the 'option' of Drawing the Wing Chun Blades and look where we are at??

Arguing about Tansau! :confused:

Thanks LFJ for the detour as it has helped me make a decision on sharing my clip... I just can't be bothered lol!

Happy Tiger
04-25-2012, 04:42 AM
I start a thread to talk about the 'option' of Drawing the Wing Chun Blades and look where we are at??

Arguing about Tansau! :confused:

Thanks LFJ for the detour as it has helped me make a decision on sharing my clip... I just can't be bothered lol!
burn :confused:

wingchunIan
04-25-2012, 04:51 AM
Not that I aint enjoying the conversations gents, but has anybody actually answered my questions?



Ths is really addresing those that have only practisd the form from Ip Man, as there tends to be no opening set or scabbard use. I find this strange because most decent knife sellers sell a scabbard with the blades :confused:

Every demo I have ever seen already has the knives 'drawn', mainly held over the shoulder like some kind of farmer, then a lifting leg work before separating the blades, double chop and away they go!

Has anyone here actually got a clip of ANY demo of themselves using their knives? And if you have, are you willing to share just a little?

Its only strange if you base your perspective of the knives on what modern day equipment retailers like to provide. When the knives were practical they would have been tucked into belts or laid on a surface on a boat etc ready to grab. In my lineage there is a move at the start of the last section that would replicate drawing the knives from your belt. I will try to get some footage of me and my si bak using our knives. Oh and a heads up, my sifu will be releasing his third book later this year which is dedicated to the BJD.

LoneTiger108
04-25-2012, 05:32 AM
Its only strange if you base your perspective of the knives on what modern day equipment retailers like to provide.

True but part of what I am saying is the scabbard protects your blades over time, so if you are thinkng of a longer term investment I would want a scabbard and not be worried about spending a bit of money.


When the knives were practical they would have been tucked into belts or laid on a surface on a boat etc ready to grab. In my lineage there is a move at the start of the last section that would replicate drawing the knives from your belt. I will try to get some footage of me and my si bak using our knives. Oh and a heads up, my sifu will be releasing his third book later this year which is dedicated to the BJD.

I'm looking forward to your Sifus book release, and will probably catch up with him at TMAS next month.

As for the belt drawing method, this is exactly what I was hoping SOMEONE would mention because I think we have the same set in our familys BJD (not that I know it though!) It is the 'middle' ground as there was no need for the scabbard if you had a sash to tuck your blades into. Problem is, there are few that even wear a sash these days...

couch
04-25-2012, 06:24 AM
It is very 'traditional' to learn the Pole and Knives forms and that be it. Many schools just teach the empty hand forms and some basic drills anyhow, letting the student figure out what it's all about.

Now that WC has spread like wildfire, there are more and more drills for the empty hand forms cropping up all the time - however, it seems that this hasn't happened with the weapons.

I learned the weapons 'traditionally' in the sense that it pretty much ended with the forms.

I have gone to Escrima and Celtic stickfighting to learn to use my weapons properly. My Filipino/Celtic stickfighting instructor told me about an article that was written. It stated how a Chinese group asked a Filipino group over to teach them weaponry - and then killed them after they were finished instructing.

I don't think that we should view our weaponry as so 'pure' of Chinese martial art lineage. There is a good chance that things have been mixed over the years.

Plus, why reinvent the wheel when other styles have solved the 'weapon' problem? Actually, I ended up showing my instructor the BJD form and he ripped it apart from his viewpoint. Very helpful: http://darkwingchun.wordpress.com/2012/04/10/another-wing-chun-exchange/

CTK

LoneTiger108
04-25-2012, 07:02 AM
It is very 'traditional' to learn the Pole and Knives forms and that be it. Many schools just teach the empty hand forms and some basic drills anyhow, letting the student figure out what it's all about.

I totally agree and I also think that this is one of the major issues with regards to students still feeling empty after so many years, looking for other things to fill their cups.


I have gone to Escrima and Celtic stickfighting to learn to use my weapons properly. My Filipino/Celtic stickfighting instructor told me about an article that was written. It stated how a Chinese group asked a Filipino group over to teach them weaponry - and then killed them after they were finished instructing.

I don't think that we should view our weaponry as so 'pure' of Chinese martial art lineage. There is a good chance that things have been mixed over the years.

And here is my point. You have had to go elsewhere to learn your weaponry 'properly'? Was this your own decision or did your Sifu send you there?

As I have mentioned earlier in the thread, crossing Wing Chun with Filipino and Escrima arts has happend throughout Europe mainly due to Leung Ting linking with such groups. This, FME and IMHO is not good for your habits using our specific design of blades. And besides, I am happy with my seurng gwun knowledge learnt through my Sifu as it was considered a speciality of his and his Sifu.


Plus, why reinvent the wheel when other styles have solved the 'weapon' problem?

Because they have solved it with 'their needs in mind'. We have a totally different purpose in our method, and I am sure that if you learnt a standard BJD as I have generally seen it would cause such a reaction from a skilled double stick man as your article suggests.

The BJD is like all other Ip Man forms. They act as a framework to build upon but you do need constant training with skilled people to take your own learning to them heights expected by others.

couch
04-25-2012, 07:33 AM
And here is my point. You have had to go elsewhere to learn your weaponry 'properly'? Was this your own decision or did your Sifu send you there?

My Sifu gave me all he can give in regards to weaponry. I went on my own accord because I'm the only one who's responsible for me and my martial arts knowledge and application. I know what you're trying to do with those questions. I've been around the forum for a minute. You're trying to find fault in my research by suggesting that if only I had 'the real Wing Chun' that I wouldn't have had to search someone else out. Typical close-minded reaction.

The f arther we get away from the source and the use of these weapons, the sillier it gets when it comes to forms and applications. This is even happening in the Filipino styles.



Because they have solved it with 'their needs in mind'. We have a totally different purpose in our method, and I am sure that if you learnt a standard BJD as I have generally seen it would cause such a reaction from a skilled double stick man as your article suggests.


Different purpose? Like...cut the guy to pieces and don't get cut?



The BJD is like all other Ip Man forms. They act as a framework to build upon but you do need constant training with skilled people to take your own learning to them heights expected by others.

Exactly - I need to train with skilled people. Case in point as to why I sought someone with a solid weaponry background out.

Happy Tiger
04-25-2012, 08:17 AM
Knives are a large family of weapons. BJD technology is specialised and not totally transferable to other knife groups. I was wondering, does any one train with just one? In Canada it's illegal to carry this class of knife as a side arm...unless you can prove it's part of your religion.

CFT
04-25-2012, 08:34 AM
Hey Kenton, so do you still do BJD? Is the exchange about finding experienced weaponry players to train your BJD against, along the lines of testing yourself against MT/MMA for empty hands? Or are their fundamental changes to actual execution or practice as a result of these exchanges?

LoneTiger108
04-25-2012, 08:43 AM
I know what you're trying to do with those questions. I've been around the forum for a minute. You're trying to find fault in my research by suggesting that if only I had 'the real Wing Chun' that I wouldn't have had to search someone else out. Typical close-minded reaction.

Actually, you're looking a bit too much into what I'm writing. I have no closed mind, you should understand that. I consider myself very lucky to have learnt from my Sifu but I in no way think what I have is 'real' over others, that's just stupid yapping. I am different. My lineage is not as known as many others. That's all.


Different purpose? Like...cut the guy to pieces and don't get cut?

I'm sorry if that's what you think our blades are for because I didn't learn to hack away relentlessly at an opponent to 'cut them to pieces'. That's insane ;)

I see Wing Chun weaponry as 'te' most accurate and skilled weaponry out there. It's one cut. The end. And we have an array of things to help us deliver that one cut that starts from our first day learning SLT.


Exactly - I need to train with skilled people. Case in point as to why I sought someone with a solid weaponry background out.

Fair point and case made for you to move on. I have too, but for very different reasons but I still return to my Sifu every now and again and keep in touch with my peers.

LoneTiger108
04-25-2012, 08:45 AM
Hey Kenton, so do you still do BJD? Is the exchange about finding experienced weaponry players to train your BJD against, along the lines of testing yourself against MT/MMA for empty hands? Or are their fundamental changes to actual execution or practice as a result of these exchanges?

Good question...

couch
04-25-2012, 10:39 AM
Hey Kenton, so do you still do BJD? Is the exchange about finding experienced weaponry players to train your BJD against, along the lines of testing yourself against MT/MMA for empty hands? Or are their fundamental changes to actual execution or practice as a result of these exchanges?

The exchange is about finding the similarities instead of the differences.

GlennR
04-25-2012, 06:03 PM
My Sifu gave me all he can give in regards to weaponry. I went on my own accord because I'm the only one who's responsible for me and my martial arts knowledge and application. I know what you're trying to do with those questions. I've been around the forum for a minute. You're trying to find fault in my research by suggesting that if only I had 'the real Wing Chun' that I wouldn't have had to search someone else out. Typical close-minded reaction.

Bravo Sir!




Different purpose? Like...cut the guy to pieces and don't get cut?


Touche!



Exactly - I need to train with skilled people. Case in point as to why I sought someone with a solid weaponry background out.


Thats ok, but just make sure it doesnt involve sparring or any of that nonsense ;)

LoneTiger108
04-26-2012, 05:07 AM
The exchange is about finding the similarities instead of the differences.

This was the whole reason I started to post in this forum Kenton, but was set-upon by anyone and everyone because my 'differences' seem 'too different'! Kind of like anyone with a new approach, like the HFY guys as an example.

That was almost 5 years ago and looking at this thread there still seems to be the same attitudes to my attempts at exchange here? And I thought we were all getting past throwing insults and having pi$$ing contests :(

Frost
04-26-2012, 05:19 AM
This was the whole reason I started to post in this forum Kenton, but was set-upon by anyone and everyone because my 'differences' seem 'too different'! Kind of like anyone with a new approach, like the HFY guys as an example.

That was almost 5 years ago and looking at this thread there still seems to be the same attitudes to my attempts at exchange here? And I thought we were all getting past throwing insults and having pi$$ing contests :(

to be fair it seems to me as an outsider that you do seem to come off saying my way is different better and i have something you dont have...this thread is a classic example of that.......also you keep asking people to put clips up but dont put any up yourself...im sure that gets on peoples nerves to
oh and im not having a go for once, but simply pointing out how ever unintentional your actions are thats how they do seem on occasion

LoneTiger108
04-26-2012, 05:55 AM
to be fair it seems to me as an outsider that you do seem to come off saying my way is different better and i have something you dont have...this thread is a classic example of that.......also you keep asking people to put clips up but dont put any up yourself...im sure that gets on peoples nerves to
oh and im not having a go for once, but simply pointing out how ever unintentional your actions are thats how they do seem on occasion

Thanks for pointing this out.

I know this is how my posts are taken by some, but this is not intentional on my part (well, sometimes it is!) I am trying to learn to exchange ideas and share in an open manner and sometimes if I get a crappy response from someone I will only give them a crappy reply back. Simple.

As for the clips, seriously?

I will now expect you to say the same to anyone of the number of guys who post here and have never shared a clip of themselves! :D

And FWIW I have shared my clips on a number of times, but you can guess what happens...

Frost
04-26-2012, 06:17 AM
Thanks for pointing this out.

I know this is how my posts are taken by some, but this is not intentional on my part (well, sometimes it is!) I am trying to learn to exchange ideas and share in an open manner and sometimes if I get a crappy response from someone I will only give them a crappy reply back. Simple.

As for the clips, seriously?

I will now expect you to say the same to anyone of the number of guys who post here and have never shared a clip of themselves! :D

And FWIW I have shared my clips on a number of times, but you can guess what happens...

Surely if you wanted to exchange opinions you would have stated in your first post why you think drawing the blades is important, how you train it and how you protect your own blades, then asked for others if they have similar methods?

Yes seriously asking for clips of knife forms without posting your own can annoy people I suspect, and I have said the same (buit in no where near a nice a manner) to Kevin on several occasions :D

LoneTiger108
04-26-2012, 06:40 AM
Surely if you wanted to exchange opinions you would have stated in your first post why you think drawing the blades is important, how you train it and how you protect your own blades, then asked for others if they have similar methods?

Believe it or not, I simply started the thread off-the-cuff in response to the crazy stabbing clip and seeing far too many Wing Chun students lean towards the Filipino methods of late, which IMHO can have a negative affect on your Wing Chun habits.

I didn't really think of spending so much time going into what/how I trained until I had a response because I randomly access this site at work and have limited time! Then the thread seemed to derail a little and, well, here we are!


Yes seriously asking for clips of knife forms without posting your own can annoy people I suspect, and I have said the same (buit in no where near a nice a manner) to Kevin on several occasions :D

It's funny you say that, but I have not really asked for peoples knife form?? I have only enquired if people have been taught this sort of thing by their Wing Chun Sifu?

2 very specific questions that have been answered by very few here.

That's what happens when you try to share something with politicians and that is why I can sometimes come across sharply, because I have little interest in all the political mess. I'm simply interested in sharing things I know about Wing Chun and learning from others who care to share too.

Sadly, there are far too few here these days.

Phil Redmond
04-26-2012, 05:59 PM
Yet you say in your videos that it should be done up high and not lower? It may be the way you do it in your TWC but you were talking about WSL as some sort of authority to explain your method, but he didn't do it like you. You've inaccurately used him to explain TWC concepts several times, but I could take any part of TWC Siunimtau and explain why WSL didn't do it like that, like wusau in front of the face.

Also your arm is at about a 90° angle with the fingers almost straight up. WSL never did taansau like that. It's always driving forward into the opponent with the fingers directing the movement from start to finish. It would appear that if you go straight up against a much stronger force from a swinging hook punch that sort of taansau would collapse.

Of course this is just a different perspective. Your way may well work for you, but I'm just commenting on how WSL's method is not quite as you describe or demonstrate. It may be that I don't understand the TWC method, but equally I would say you have not understood WSL's and can't use him to validate your way.


was referring to 0:35 in this clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPdl-mGKL-Y

and 0:42 in this clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-nGwcE5B5A


There are many similarities between what I do and what Si-Bak WSL show.
I teach to raise the Bong not go over the top with the bong just like he shows here at: 3:40 here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guBKfDox5qs

LFJ
04-26-2012, 10:58 PM
Btw, I love Wing Chun and never berate other WC lineages. IMO we are one family. Sometimes dysfunctional but still family. :-)

Right on. I was merely discussing differences and wasn't trying to "argue" with you as LongTiger108 thought. That being said;


I was referring to 0:35 in this clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPdl-mGKL-Y

I know which clips you were talking about. Already explained the taansau on mukyanjong is done in such a way because of where the arms are in a fixed position and that they can't move. To further illustrate that point;

Similarly at 1:14 in that clip there is a kwansau where the low bongsau hits the dummy's lower arm, and because it doesn't move like a person's leg would, the opportunity is taken to throw in a mansau to continue the flow of the sequence into the "air" kwansau with a kick.

In actuality, from the leg block one would continue straight through with the kwansau and kick. But the dummy's arms don't move, so it's done differently than in application.

Same thing with the taansau and many other actions throughout the set. It takes being taught not just seeing to understand. Have a look at his Siunimtau or end of Chamkiu and see where his taansau is and how it works.

There are structurally better alternatives to guarding powerful high level hooks or angled punches, which I believe you've shown on your Youtube channel, such as biusau, laapsau, or even wusau.

Speaking of wusau, in WSLVT it's not done at the face either. Just like taansau we ideally want to be on top of the opponent, to where it's difficult for them to get power back up. If catching a straight punch to the face with the outside of a wusau pulling it back to the face is where it will lead it. So we draw it down as we retract.


and 0:42 in this clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-nGwcE5B5A

At first mention he showed a super close range kick defense where you jam your arm down to the side (because you've turned the body). It doesn't extend out to the front or nearly as far as you said he did, or as you do it in your Siunimtau.

After the 1:00 mark he begins showing the more likely application of the side action which is an escape from different types of armbars and locks.

After the 4:00 mark he begins showing the more likely kick defense action, which is the one to the front not the side. It's the same movement as at the end of Chamkiu, as he showed.

LoneTiger108
04-27-2012, 02:11 AM
Before we all get our panties in a twist about where your tansau lies and start drifting into a debate about nothing imho, can either of you just answer my bloody question?!! :rolleyes:


If you have been lucky enough to learn first-hand any knife work from your Wing Chun Sifu, whether that be basic drills or the whole of Ip Mans Eight Chopping Knife set, was there any time that you learnt:

1. How to defend your own blades? (ie. to stop them being taken from you)

2. How to draw your knives? (ie. using a sheath/scabbard)

I mean, it really isn't that hard. But considering some of the responses here I guess I can pretty well asume that there are very very few, if any, of you who have been taught methods like this. I'm okay with that because it actually makes me think what the hell have I learnt!!??

I was only discussing these sorts of things with one of my uncles eldest guys last night, who totally loves his knife form, and we are attempting to piece together the variations within our own family so I totally see why there can be massive differences from one Sifu to the next.

LFJ
04-27-2012, 02:29 AM
Before we all get our panties in a twist about where your tansau lies and start drifting into a debate about nothing imho, can either of you just answer my bloody question?!! :rolleyes:

I mean, it really isn't that hard. But considering some of the responses here I guess I can pretty well asume that there are very very few, if any, of you who have been taught methods like this.

Do you think perhaps the reason you don't get answers to your questions is not due to the inexperience of posters here, but simply because they are silly questions?

LoneTiger108
04-27-2012, 02:58 AM
Do you think perhaps the reason you don't get answers to your questions is not due to the inexperience of posters here, but simply because they are silly questions?

No. But if that is the case, I would at least expect some silly answers from some! ;)

But you can do me a favour and explain to me why you think my questions, or this thread in particular is silly? Especially considering your severe lack of input so far.

At least that is a start...

LFJ
04-27-2012, 04:02 AM
But you can do me a favour and explain to me why you think my questions, or this thread in particular is silly? Especially considering your severe lack of input so far.

Well, I guess it depends on your reason for training the Baatjaamdo set. Is it for tradition's sake or to enhance your self-defense abilities– and if the latter is it for modern day self-defense situations or for historical reenactment?

For me, and I would presume most, there is 0% chance that I will find myself in a real confrontation where I have the butterfly knives holstered at my hip and need to worry about them being taken from me or how I should draw them.

Instead what training the Baatjaamdo set provides is information on how to extend WC concepts and principles to weapon fighting. More than likely the case would be that what I use is a similar enough object, whether bladed or not, that I would pick up rather than "draw", and apply Baatjaamdo concepts with to defend myself.

So there's my response to your second question. I'm not role playing and so don't need to worry about how to draw the blades. To your first- at that point I would prevent someone from taking it from me by chopping or whacking them with it.

LoneTiger108
04-27-2012, 05:09 AM
Well, I guess it depends on your reason for training the Baatjaamdo set. Is it for tradition's sake or to enhance your self-defense abilities– and if the latter is it for modern day self-defense situations or for historical reenactment?

I'm actually trying not to limit people to just the BJD set, as I have already mentioned, because there is little evidence in there of any scabbard/drawing principles at all. And if they are there, which has been suggested on this thread, they are pretty well 'hidden'.

I will say this though, if all you do with your knives and poles is the 'form' sets, please move on to another thread because that to me is simply madness! ;)


For me, and I would presume most, there is 0% chance that I will find myself in a real confrontation where I have the butterfly knives holstered at my hip and need to worry about them being taken from me or how I should draw them.

This answer is oh so common in people that tend to not understand the reasons/benefits of equipment and weaponry practise. Let's say, I train on the wooden man daily for exercise knowing that it is helping me prepare my body for confrontation. But I shouldn't bother because I don't carry a wooden man with me on the street??

My answer is this: my wooden man is WITH me, and my pole and knives are WITH me everywhere I go. This is a strong equipment based and weaponry system and they have massive importance. We are not Kara-te.

So, I do not train this stuff for 'reenactments' or for 'preservation', although these are great reasons, I train this stuff because it is what we are. It is the culmination of all of this that makes Wing Chun what it is and if you decide for yourself not to immerse yourself in what this system as a whole has to offer because the reason you're offering, you will only ever lose out imho.


I'm not role playing and so don't need to worry about how to draw the blades. To your first- at that point I would prevent someone from taking it from me by chopping or whacking them with it.

Interesting response to the drawing ideas. I will take your point and leave it there. Chopping (?) and whacking aggressors with your scabbard is definitely an idea to stop someone snatching your knives but I'm looking for people who have been taught such ideas within their Wing Chun learning.

LoneTiger108
04-27-2012, 05:14 AM
Well, I guess it depends on your reason for training the Baatjaamdo set.

Actually this has got me thinking (again! oh no!)

I am more interesting in hearing from any one of you who have been 'taught', not those that have learnt from watching DVDs and such.

I trained weaponry because it is what my Sifu specializes in and he taught it openly to those he chose. I had no 'choice' about it. It was offered to me, as I believe it should be, at the right time for the right reasons.

If you have ever 'asked' to be taught the knives of Wing Chun, and it was entertained with ease (and possibly more money!) I would go back to what you were shown and question everything!!! :eek:

LFJ
04-27-2012, 06:03 AM
I'm actually trying not to limit people to just the BJD set, as I have already mentioned, because there is little evidence in there of any scabbard/drawing principles at all. And if they are there, which has been suggested on this thread, they are pretty well 'hidden'.

I will say this though, if all you do with your knives and poles is the 'form' sets, please move on to another thread because that to me is simply madness! ;)

Well of course I meant much more by that. Just as the empty hand sets are a foundation of concepts and principles used in fighting, and not a limitation as to what you can or should do.


Let's say, I train on the wooden man daily for exercise knowing that it is helping me prepare my body for confrontation. But I shouldn't bother because I don't carry a wooden man with me on the street??

lol, That's a ridiculous equation. The dummy set teaches certain concepts and principles, as do the weapon sets. And they can be applied to any situation or object we get our hands on.

This is what you mean when you say they are "always WITH you", correct?

If you aren't at all likely to have the blades holstered on your hip when facing a threatening situation, then tell me what concept or principle of retention and drawing methods are they that are "always WITH you" and how you would apply them in a modern day confrontation where you don't actually have them.


Chopping (?) and whacking aggressors with your scabbard is definitely an idea to stop someone snatching your knives but I'm looking for people who have been taught such ideas within their Wing Chun learning.

lol, I was not talking about a scabbard but the object I picked up...


So, I do not train this stuff for 'reenactments' or for 'preservation', although these are great reasons, I train this stuff because it is what we are. It is the culmination of all of this that makes Wing Chun what it is and if you decide for yourself not to immerse yourself in what this system as a whole has to offer because the reason you're offering, you will only ever lose out imho.

So you do it for tradition then.

LoneTiger108
04-27-2012, 08:53 AM
lol, That's a ridiculous equation. The dummy set teaches certain concepts and principles, as do the weapon sets. And they can be applied to any situation or object we get our hands on.

This is what you mean when you say they are "always WITH you", correct?

Yes that is what I mean by having the dummy/blades/pole with me.

Looking at how you describe what the 'dummy' set is for, have you learnt the set from a Sifu? I only ask because the set is not like SLT, where we are building habits in a neutral stance for the upper facing body. The 108 are actually sansau methods passed down in an easy-to-remember drill. They are in fact the excecution of your empty hand forms (according to my limited understanding) and they each have quite specific purpose fme.

In other words, the wooden man assists in the expression of the empty hand forms in combat. This is a slow development, and you will not look like a book of pictures as I commonly see unfortunately. Your forms will come alive, so I can't see how that relates to what you say it is for. I may misunderstand you.


If you aren't at all likely to have the blades holstered on your hip when facing a threatening situation, then tell me what concept or principle of retention and drawing methods are they that are "always WITH you" and how you would apply them in a modern day confrontation where you don't actually have them.

Okay, replace my scabbard with my wallet ;) No matter what happens, I am not letting go of my wallet, so I will have evasive actions and body work that we destabilize you so it is out of reach at all times.

Then, if I use the same drawing method with empty hands it will simply distract and possibly injure you a little depending on how and what it collides with.

Sorry if that seems basic to you, but that's all I have been saying...


So you do it for tradition then.

No. I do it because I always have had an interest in weaponry. I do it because I love Wing Chun and see how important the blades are to us. I do it because I was asked to by my Sifu.

As far as tradition is concerned, if I was doing it for that I would in no way whatsoever be yapping about stuff like this on a public forum!!

My traditional family values are still intact though.

Phil Redmond
04-27-2012, 03:25 PM
n
Right on. I was merely discussing differences and wasn't trying to "argue" with you as LongTiger108 thought. That being said;



I know which clips you were talking about. Already explained the taansau on mukyanjong is done in such a way because of where the arms are in a fixed position and that they can't move. To further illustrate that point;

Similarly at 1:14 in that clip there is a kwansau where the low bongsau hits the dummy's lower arm, and because it doesn't move like a person's leg would, the opportunity is taken to throw in a mansau to continue the flow of the sequence into the "air" kwansau with a kick.

In actuality, from the leg block one would continue straight through with the kwansau and kick. But the dummy's arms don't move, so it's done differently than in application.

Same thing with the taansau and many other actions throughout the set. It takes being taught not just seeing to understand. Have a look at his Siunimtau or end of Chamkiu and see where his taansau is and how it works.

There are structurally better alternatives to guarding powerful high level hooks or angled punches, which I believe you've shown on your Youtube channel, such as biusau, laapsau, or even wusau.

Speaking of wusau, in WSLVT it's not done at the face either. Just like taansau we ideally want to be on top of the opponent, to where it's difficult for them to get power back up. If catching a straight punch to the face with the outside of a wusau pulling it back to the face is where it will lead it. So we draw it down as we retract.



At first mention he showed a super close range kick defense where you jam your arm down to the side (because you've turned the body). It doesn't extend out to the front or nearly as far as you said he did, or as you do it in your Siunimtau.

After the 1:00 mark he begins showing the more likely application of the side action which is an escape from different types of armbars and locks.

After the 4:00 mark he begins showing the more likely kick defense action, which is the one to the front not the side. It's the same movement as at the end of Chamkiu, as he showed.

Actually the hand positions are relative to the gate covered. I have a clip some of me using a mid level tan. And it's good that we can discuss without arguing which isn't productive anyway. :)

Phil Redmond
04-27-2012, 03:31 PM
. . .

There are structurally better alternatives to guarding powerful high level hooks or angled punches, which I believe you've shown on your Youtube channel, such as biusau, laapsau, or even wusau. . .
What headshot (upper gate), techs or positions would you prefer? I'm always willing to add to my arsenal.

LFJ
04-27-2012, 05:38 PM
Looking at how you describe what the 'dummy' set is for, have you learnt the set from a Sifu? I only ask because the set is not like SLT, where we are building habits in a neutral stance for the upper facing body. The 108 are actually sansau methods passed down in an easy-to-remember drill. They are in fact the excecution of your empty hand forms (according to my limited understanding) and they each have quite specific purpose fme.

In other words, the wooden man assists in the expression of the empty hand forms in combat. This is a slow development, and you will not look like a book of pictures as I commonly see unfortunately. Your forms will come alive, so I can't see how that relates to what you say it is for. I may misunderstand you.

Yes, well at least in the WSLVT system that's not quite what it's about. 90% of what you need in fighting is covered in SNT and CK. According to WSL, the MYJ set is about "recovery". You've made minor mistakes or things haven't gone quite as planned and you need to recover your position. So the MYJ set provides certain concepts and principles for various less desirable outcomes or positions you might find yourself in. It differs from BJ in that regard as BJ is about survival in emergency situations. MYJ recovery is not quite as extreme. But it is not just a set of Saansau fight sequences. There are only one or two places where a technique is the obligatory following action to the previous.


Okay, replace my scabbard with my wallet ;)

lol, No, don't do that. I was saying I don't need retention and drawing methods for an object similar enough to the WC blades, whether bladed or not, that I happen to pick up. At that point, having it already in my hand, I will keep someone from taking it by chopping or whacking them with it of course applying BJD methods to it.


Then, if I use the same drawing method with empty hands it will simply distract and possibly injure you a little depending on how and what it collides with.

So instead of using SNT & CK, you're going to attack empty handed by pretending to draw blades? o.0

LFJ
04-27-2012, 06:15 PM
. . .

There are structurally better alternatives to guarding powerful high level hooks or angled punches, which I believe you've shown on your Youtube channel, such as biusau, laapsau, or even wusau. . .

What headshot (upper gate), techs or positions would you prefer? I'm always willing to add to my arsenal.

As I said, you've already shown them on your Youtube channel. Against round or overhand punches;

Biusau, laapsau, and the like:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRC3a1RSk64
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxhZ6Iop1Y4

Wusau
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3s2pxc6Tiw

I would much prefer these to taansau. Especially up high like this, it's likely that the taansau structure won't stand up to it. Mainly because it allows the bicep (the muscle that retracts the arm) to activate. Having palm down turns off the bicep and activates the triceps (the muscle that extends the arm). So something like a biu, fuk/laap, or wu is going to be a structurally better alternative for guarding upper gate, imo. Taansau would be comfortable if the attack were a little lower so that I can gain the "upper" hand and not have it fold against a very strong opponent.

LFJ
04-28-2012, 12:32 AM
Actually the hand positions are relative to the gate covered. I have a clip some of me using a mid level tan.

Do you have a link or name of the clip? (I generally like your stuff, although it's a bit different than what I do.) But that's not the impression I got from what you were saying in your knife basics video:

"I know some of you have seen the taan down here, but humans learn movement through muscle movement and repetition to create a neurological pathway.... So if you train up here, that's where people are gonna be throwing a punch at you.... So why train it down here when people are gonna attack you up there?"

Then to strengthen your position you use WSL as an example:

"I gotta video of WSL also doing bongsau and taansau on the wooden dummy. His taan's up here, not down there."

So you see how I'm confused by your statement? WSL doesn't do taansau in front of the face in his Siunimtau, so what does that do to your logic here?

LoneTiger108
04-29-2012, 04:00 AM
Yes, well at least in the WSLVT system that's not quite what it's about. 90% of what you need in fighting is covered in SNT and CK. According to WSL, the MYJ set is about "recovery".

I never knew he taught it for this reason. Interesting, but definitely not how I was taught but that's just common these days. We have all had varied influences.


So instead of using SNT & CK, you're going to attack empty handed by pretending to draw blades? o.0

No comment :)

LoneTiger108
04-29-2012, 04:02 AM
As for ths tansau debate you pair are getting into, move on please because it is not only boring, unless you want to connect it to weaponry and drawing the blades, well...

LFJ
04-29-2012, 07:08 AM
I never knew he taught it for this reason. Interesting, but definitely not how I was taught but that's just common these days. We have all had varied influences.

Yes, he can be seen in this video here talking about one part of Buiji, then explaining some recovery concepts within the Mukyanjong set.

Recovery begins at the start of the set with the opening move, the neck pull, which is not the object of the move. Because if you can reach the back of someone's neck, you can punch them in the face. It's actually recovering from a missed punch.

He also shows a gaangsau recovery for a wrong bongsau (done against the wrong hand), and a hyunsau recovery for a wrong gaangsau. There are other recovery concepts and principles throughout the set where you are recovering from loss of balance, either when pushed or pulled by the opponent one way or the other. Or just how to bring the hand back up after deflecting a kick. Things like that are what the Mukyanjong is about, at least within WSLVT.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QX3YYaRjws8

LoneTiger108
04-29-2012, 07:19 AM
Things like that are what the Mukyanjong is about, at least within WSLVT.

I can't comment on what WSLs VT is all about, it's a fruitless exercise.

I will say though that my Sigung was very proud of his teacher Ip Man too but he never (ever) went into this sort of debate with anyone. He did however produce the first ever wooden man book with his student Joseph Cheng, so I would say with all honesty that I am confident in my own wooden man practise.

Now, getting back to the blades, I am jut uploading a little clip for fun...

LoneTiger108
04-29-2012, 08:05 AM
Flystudio - Drawing A Wing Chun Blade
http://youtu.be/_KcV3V8tfnc

Just a little fun (for once!)

As for defending your blades and scabbard usage, I will not be putting up a clip about that :cool:

As for Lee Shings Eight Chopping Knife Set... I will leave that for other elders to share!! :)

LFJ
04-29-2012, 08:25 AM
I can't comment on what WSLs VT is all about, it's a fruitless exercise.

I know you can't, which is why you shouldn't condescendingly suggest that I haven't learned it from a Sifu. Your unfamiliarity with other concepts is your inexperience, not mine.


I will say though that my Sigung was very proud of his teacher Ip Man too but he never (ever) went into this sort of debate with anyone.

And what does that mean? This is not the first time you've spoken in a condescending tone in this thread. First you suggested that I must have learned from DVD's because I mentioned training the BJD set, which is silly. :rolleyes:

LoneTiger108
04-29-2012, 09:29 AM
I know you can't, which is why you shouldn't condescendingly suggest that I haven't learned it from a Sifu. Your unfamiliarity with other concepts is your inexperience, not mine.

Did I say that. No. Am I unfamiliar with WSL stuff. No. Is it a fruitless discussion. FME yes. Nothing condescending intended, you're reading too much into my posts. I was just being quick as I have little time today...


This is not the first time you've spoken in a condescending tone in this thread. First you suggested that I must have learned from DVD's because I mentioned training the BJD set, which is silly. :rolleyes:

??? Again you are misreading my posts. Others do too, so my apologies if you find my quick words offensive.

And as for the BJD being a set. It is as far as I know. A set originating from Ip Man in his later HK years. He didn't teach the set we all see today in Fatshan according to my research, and other families have totally different sets! I just don't use the word 'form' because if it was, the content would be universal.

LFJ
04-29-2012, 11:08 AM
Well, excuse me if I did misconstrue your words, but they did seem pretty obvious. You said:


Looking at how you describe what the 'dummy' set is for, have you learnt the set from a Sifu?

This seems to suggest I haven't or at least question whether or not I've learned the set from a Sifu, because it doesn't fit with what you know.

But then when I clarified my description of the function of the set in WSLVT you said you were unaware that he taught it for that purpose (which I then showed video proof of).

So it seems your unfamiliarity made you question my experience, which is what I found condescending, and ironic considering the inexperience is yours in this case.

This too, in response to my mention of training the BJD set, as if that's all knife training might entail.


I am more interesting in hearing from any one of you who have been 'taught', not those that have learnt from watching DVDs and such.

So if I did misconstrue your intentions, perhaps at least you can see the cause for confusion.

LoneTiger108
04-29-2012, 12:38 PM
That's what I love about this forum! Some people just keep on arguing as if you were in the courts or something... weird but true.

LFJ - whoever you are, thank you for your view but now how about talking about if you draw the knife or use any scabbard/knife defense tactics and methods?

And whilst doing that, remember your own words because believe it or not you sound a wee bit condesceding too sometimes, as if WSL was the be all and end all of Wing Chun and whatever he had said in an interview through a translator is Gospel. He was a very simple and honourable man. A fighter and a bragger. This is what he is known and respected for generations down the line.

But times have changed and more older families are coming out and they all have something different to offer. Are they all wrong too because they learnt everything before WSL was even born? Are they better than he could ever be? No. They're simply different... embrace that because I do and have met some great people along the way too.

Vajramusti
04-29-2012, 02:19 PM
Flystudio - Drawing A Wing Chun Blade
http://youtu.be/_KcV3V8tfnc

Just a little fun (for once!)

As for defending your blades and scabbard usage, I will not be putting up a clip about that :cool:

As for Lee Shings Eight Chopping Knife Set... I will leave that for other elders to share!! :)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Holy Scaramouche!!

joy c

Ali. R
04-29-2012, 04:49 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Holy Scaramouche!!

joy c

Know that’s, some real funny sh!t!

Phil Redmond
04-29-2012, 09:47 PM
Do you have a link or name of the clip? (I generally like your stuff, although it's a bit different than what I do.) But that's not the impression I got from what you were saying in your knife basics video:

"I know some of you have seen the taan down here, but humans learn movement through muscle movement and repetition to create a neurological pathway.... So if you train up here, that's where people are gonna be throwing a punch at you.... So why train it down here when people are gonna attack you up there?"

Then to strengthen your position you use WSL as an example:

"I gotta video of WSL also doing bongsau and taansau on the wooden dummy. His taan's up here, not down there."

So you see how I'm confused by your statement? WSL doesn't do taansau in front of the face in his Siunimtau, so what does that do to your logic here?
Try Sifu Phillip Redmond Chinatown 4-4-09

LFJ
04-30-2012, 02:18 AM
And whilst doing that, remember your own words because believe it or not you sound a wee bit condesceding too sometimes, as if WSL was the be all and end all of Wing Chun and whatever he had said in an interview through a translator is Gospel. He was a very simple and honourable man. A fighter and a bragger. This is what he is known and respected for generations down the line.

But times have changed and more older families are coming out and they all have something different to offer. Are they all wrong too because they learnt everything before WSL was even born? Are they better than he could ever be? No. They're simply different... embrace that because I do and have met some great people along the way too.

Actually, I always started with "according to WSL" or "in the WSLVT method", and only brought him up in response to what I saw as a misunderstanding of his method. I never suggested something as condescending as anyone who does differently than him must not have learned from a Sifu. :rolleyes:

Also, there you go with another assumption. That I must only be able to understand the translator and am so naive as to take his interpretation as Gospel. I'm fluent in Mandarin and do alright in Cantonese. So I actually understand WSL just fine, and if I ever take his word as Gospel it is the Gospel of WSLVT according to WSL, not of WCK as a whole. ;)

LoneTiger108
04-30-2012, 03:37 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Holy Scaramouche!!

joy c

That brought a tear to my eye too joy... :D

Thunder bolts & lightning!

LoneTiger108
04-30-2012, 03:40 AM
... and if I ever take his word as Gospel it is the Gospel of WSLVT according to WSL, not of WCK as a whole. ;)

Well said. You see, it's not so hard is it??

Now how about answering my questions 'relating to the thread'... or are we all happy that I am doing something alien to most of you?

Man, because if that is so, I might just put my knives back in their box!!?? :o

LoneTiger108
04-30-2012, 03:48 AM
So, getting back on track:

Here's my clip of one method of 'Drawing A Wing Chun Blade'
http://youtu.be/_KcV3V8tfnc

And here are my questions:

If you have been lucky enough to learn first-hand any knife work from your Wing Chun Sifu, whether that be basic drills or the whole of Ip Mans Eight Chopping Knife set, was there any time that you learnt:

1. How to defend your own blades? (ie. to stop them being taken from you)

2. How to draw your knives? (ie. using a sheath/scabbard)

Any more clips showing this sort of thing would be welcome, especially if you can Draw quicker than I do!!! :eek: ;)

Phil Redmond
04-30-2012, 04:05 AM
Try Sifu Phillip Redmond Chinatown 4-4-09

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dg0nSAOpQ8A

LoneTiger108
04-30-2012, 08:55 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dg0nSAOpQ8A

You're not quite drawing your blade there sir! ;)

Of all the guys that do post clips, maybe you might want to try to draw as I do in my clip Phil and see how you get on? I'm sure it will be familiar to you at least.

CFT
04-30-2012, 09:15 AM
Nice clip Spencer. Almost 'shadow-less knife' (mou ying do) it was so hidden and quick.

I get the point about defending your knives from disarm attempts, but I would of question the 'need' for quick drawing of the baat jam do. They are not really everyday weapons.

Phil Redmond
04-30-2012, 10:19 AM
You're not quite drawing your blade there sir! ;)

Of all the guys that do post clips, maybe you might want to try to draw as I do in my clip Phil and see how you get on? I'm sure it will be familiar to you at least.
That clip was in response to the mid level tan question. As to "drawing" the blade it would depend on where you carried them, what sort of scabbard/sheath you used, etc. It not like that blades had a standard wielding mode like a Samurai. Some say blades were carried in boots, behind the back, on the side, under the arm. There are leather cases, wooden cases. All there factors would have to be considered. Once you worked out a perferred method of carrying the knifes then you could start training a "quick draw".

LoneTiger108
04-30-2012, 11:50 AM
Nice clip Spencer. Almost 'shadow-less knife' (mou ying do) it was so hidden and quick.

Thanx Chee. It's only a trick of sorts and this was drawn from the left hip as the pair of blades would be carried in the left hand.


I get the point about defending your knives from disarm attempts, but I would of question the 'need' for quick drawing of the baat jam do. They are not really everyday weapons.

It's not so much a 'need' for it in todays time unless you can appreciate exactly what heigung is being used to be able to go so quick with the arm whilst the body stays steady ;) I know my clip looks quick, but that's not 100%!

LoneTiger108
04-30-2012, 11:55 AM
As to "drawing" the blade it would depend on where you carried them, what sort of scabbard/sheath you used, etc. It not like that blades had a standard wielding mode like a Samurai.

It's interesting you mention the Samurai because from my training of the blades we treated them in a very similar, respectful manner. This is why I was asking if anyone else has had similar experience, and I knew a Military man like yourself may understand the intricacies more.



Some say blades were carried in boots, behind the back, on the side, under the arm. There are leather cases, wooden cases. All there factors would have to be considered. Once you worked out a perferred method of carrying the knifes then you could start training a "quick draw".

Exactly. You hit the nail on the head.

So, is it something you would want to train or teach? Or do you keep it on the quiet as much as I do?

Phil Redmond
04-30-2012, 12:31 PM
It's interesting you mention the Samurai because from my training of the blades we treated them in a very similar, respectful manner. This is why I was asking if anyone else has had similar experience, and I knew a Military man like yourself may understand the intricacies more.




Exactly. You hit the nail on the head.

So, is it something you would want to train or teach? Or do you keep it on the quiet as much as I do?
I have about 8-9 pair of Do. Some have hard wood cases and some different types of leather. My Cold steel pair have the best case IMO but the knives fit tightly in the case. One problem with a quick draw is that the blades could separate (depending on how they're made), and you wouldn't have a strong grip on both handles. I'm not saying that a quick draw isn't possible. But it'd work better if the knives and the case were initially designed that way. I was shown by one when I was using the wooden case to jerk the case upwards slightly so that the knives would slide upwards. Then quickly grab both knives in one hand while using the case to block as well. So you'd have both knives in one and the case to defend. You could always drop the case and separate the knives into both hands if things got really bad.

LoneTiger108
05-02-2012, 04:50 AM
One problem with a quick draw is that the blades could separate (depending on how they're made), and you wouldn't have a strong grip on both handles. I'm not saying that a quick draw isn't possible. But it'd work better if the knives and the case were initially designed that way.

Very true Phil. A quick draw definitely works better with no scabbard at all, but a single draw like in my clip is designed to return to the scabbard.

The 'energy' I use too is based on the nervous systems reflexes, almost using that infamous inch energy to release the blade ;)


I was shown by one when I was using the wooden case to jerk the case upwards slightly so that the knives would slide upwards.

And there it is! Inch energy used in a real situation lol! Jerk, catch, draw!!!

There are a number of ways like you describe and thanks for sharing as I know you love your weaponry.

CFT
05-02-2012, 06:23 AM
Oh, a question I forgot to ask ... is it one scabbard holding 2 blades? Does that mean your knife handles have a 'D' shape profile so they can be sheathed together?

Spencer, was your quick draw for a single blade?

LoneTiger108
05-02-2012, 06:33 AM
Oh, a question I forgot to ask ... is it one scabbard holding 2 blades? Does that mean your knife handles have a 'D' shape profile so they can be sheathed together?

Yes, my blades are Yum Yeurng Wu Dip Dao and fit flush together in the scabbard. D or S depending on the ear design ;)


Spencer, was your quick draw for a single blade?

Yep! To draw both is a different method.

k gledhill
05-02-2012, 02:06 PM
Yim Wing Chun doesnt draw them herself , idiots we are :rolleyes: , she has them given to her from off camera :D:D http://youtu.be/bOU9jm0XmEk

LoneTiger108
05-03-2012, 03:37 AM
Yim Wing Chun doesnt draw them herself , idiots we are :rolleyes: , she has them given to her from off camera :D:D http://youtu.be/bOU9jm0XmEk

Man, you just reminded me of why I have a love/hate relationship with HK movies and especially Michelle Yeoh at that time!! :eek:

She really should have stuck to the harder looking stuff of her earlier movies
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oh8KnmRvqd0