The "Shaolin Guard"

[EternalSpring]

Hey everyone, before I ask anything I guess I should give a general idea of my background. I'm no master of kung fu. Been training for a bit more than 7 years with my primary art being Ving Tsun, although my sifu does teach me more than Ving Tsun, it is my primary art that I understand the most.

One of the arts I train is a Shaolin system which from what I know, is similar to the combination of all the empty hand forms in the basic core curriculum in the Jing Mo Kung fu styles (i think it's called sets of Tan Tui?). I've been training this for about 3 years and just recently was wondering about something that some people here may be able to help me with.

With these systems/styles of kung fu that primarily use stances like sei ping ma and gong ji ma (sp?), what is the "guard stance" or "ready stance." Personally, I've cross trained in boxing and notice that I adapt something like that if I were to be told to use only things from my Shaolin. But that's not really a guard from the style (or maybe it is, who knows lol). For those of you who train arts like Hung Gar and Choy Lee Fut, how do you face an opponent and what kind of guard do you use?

[EternalSpring]

ugh, in retrospect, i should probably have posted this in the Shaolin Section :o

[RenDaHai]

Hey there,

All of the stances are not just stances but 'steps' that is to say methods of taking a step. As such they are dynamic and rarely held for any length of time past the momentary technique. Note that moving into a stance gives you momentum, but when you are already in a stance you have none. So the technique should be executed while moving into the step and not statically from it.

When in non contact, that is to say you and your opponent are not in physical contact and are awaiting each other you adopt a comfortable natural posture like everyday walking, not any of the stances. The hands are held close to the solar plexus.


When momentarily withdrawing from the opponent it is common to use the stance 'Xu Bu'. This is where the rear leg takes the weight and the front leg is empty (hence the name, 'empty stance'). The hands most typically are held in 'XiaoQiXing'. That is 'small seven stars' where the front hand is around chin level and the rear hand is held at the elbow of the front hand.

If there was a 'fighting ready stance' I suppose that would be it, but it is not to be held against a mobile opponent, only against one who is also in stance.

[Golden Arms]

After you have trained for a while and begin to understand the mechanics of your offense and defense, you can use whatever you please as a "guard". I teach an open and closed version to start with. Below is a basic description:

Length half way between cat stance and bow and arrow stance
Arms at bridge angles in front of the body

We practice stepping into and out of all of our other footwork and stances, as well as throwing movements from here.

[Subitai]

I like what both Golden Arms said as well as RenDaHai.

IMO, the state of exchange or for that matter that state of Yin / Yang doesn't exist between myself and my opponent untill we get closer or touch in some way. An Attack for example.

So a natural readiness, or not overly tense posture is the order of the day. I think this can vary from person to person...go with the flow.

You don't need to be rooted when you've just begun a face-off.

But no.. as a Hung Gar man I wouldn't present a Kiu Sao like they do in the movies, why would show my bridge before hand? Just react and be natural.

[GeneChing]

But no.. as a Hung Gar man I wouldn't present a Kiu Sao like they do in the movies, why would show my bridge before hand? Just react and be natural. 'cuz it looks so cool. come on bro. represent! :p

Shaolin has some crazy classical guard stances in the forms. I'd never use any of them for real... except maybe after my opponent was defeated already, just to add insult to injury.

[sanjuro_ronin]

If you get to the point where a guard is a good idea, then your guard should be a 'typical" western boxing one, hands up.
Any other guard may give clue to your opponent that you actually know how to fight, why lose the element of the unknown and show your intent?

[Subitai]

Oh yah brother, well there you have it...

Anything is possible when you're Gene Ching!! :cool:

[GeneChing]

Anything is possible when you're Gene Ching!! :cool: If that were true, we'd have a lot more subscribers (http://www.martialartsmart.com/19341.html). ;)

[Featherstone]

Oh yah brother, well there you have it...

Anything is possible when you're Gene Ching!! :cool:

I had images of that Dunkin Donuts commercial about the Angus sammich.

[bawang]

shaolin fighting stance looks just like a modern boxing stance.

horse stance bow stance etc are training stance for children. they are not used for fighting.

shaolin uses seven stars, jing wu uses five elements. southern styles use balanced stance.

[Lucas]

shaolin fighting stance looks just like a modern boxing stance.

horse stance bow stance etc are training stance for children. they are not used for fighting.

shaolin uses seven stars, jing wu uses five elements. southern styles use balanced stance.

u tellin me this isnt a fighting stance?

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3640/3586343113_e99100fc0d.jpg

[Lucas]

http://renfist.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/ren-ren-2.jpg

[EternalSpring]

Hey there,

All of the stances are not just stances but 'steps' that is to say methods of taking a step. As such they are dynamic and rarely held for any length of time past the momentary technique. Note that moving into a stance gives you momentum, but when you are already in a stance you have none. So the technique should be executed while moving into the step and not statically from it.

When in non contact, that is to say you and your opponent are not in physical contact and are awaiting each other you adopt a comfortable natural posture like everyday walking, not any of the stances. The hands are held close to the solar plexus.


When momentarily withdrawing from the opponent it is common to use the stance 'Xu Bu'. This is where the rear leg takes the weight and the front leg is empty (hence the name, 'empty stance'). The hands most typically are held in 'XiaoQiXing'. That is 'small seven stars' where the front hand is around chin level and the rear hand is held at the elbow of the front hand.

If there was a 'fighting ready stance' I suppose that would be it, but it is not to be held against a mobile opponent, only against one who is also in stance.

wow, i never really thought of every stance as being a method of taking a step, although now when i think about breaking down each form, each movement does def set up the next step.

I'm a little confused though in regards to the "hands at the solar plexus" stance/guard. Is that for the purpose of not being tense while not making contact? or is it also considered a good place to keep the arms to respond to an attack?

ive only done a quick google images search, but is the Xu Bu similar to a Du Ma stance? Also sounds similar to the jong sao in Ving Tsun.

[EternalSpring]

After you have trained for a while and begin to understand the mechanics of your offense and defense, you can use whatever you please as a "guard". I teach an open and closed version to start with. Below is a basic description:

Length half way between cat stance and bow and arrow stance
Arms at bridge angles in front of the body

We practice stepping into and out of all of our other footwork and stances, as well as throwing movements from here.

Nice, so the stance you described sounds similar to the Xu Bu that was mentioned by RenDaHai. I guess ultimately, the natural guard stances look similar because they aim to meet the requirements of guarding the groin, midsection, and head as efficiently as possible.

On a side note, I noticed that you mentioned throwing movements being practiced from the steps. If you dont mind me asking, what style/system/etc of kung fu do you train?

[EternalSpring]

I like what both Golden Arms said as well as RenDaHai.

IMO, the state of exchange or for that matter that state of Yin / Yang doesn't exist between myself and my opponent untill we get closer or touch in some way. An Attack for example.

So a natural readiness, or not overly tense posture is the order of the day. I think this can vary from person to person...go with the flow.

You don't need to be rooted when you've just begun a face-off.

But no.. as a Hung Gar man I wouldn't present a Kiu Sao like they do in the movies, why would show my bridge before hand? Just react and be natural.

Hm, very good points, i never thought of it like that. So I'm guessing that you put up the guard right before entering the striking range?

This makes a lot of sense when I think about it from the aspect of sparring in the ring when i was training boxing. My first time around, I pretty much walked in from afar with my guard up and would almost just square up with my opponent. It's wasn't too long till i realized that i was best off taking action once i was in striking range, rather than getting there and thinking of what to do. Not that i was any sort of exceptional boxer, but the pressure of being in the ring def did open my eyes to the guard and how i use it when im either away from or near to my opponent.

and another good point, there probably isn't much reason to show the bridge/kiu before doing anything.

[EternalSpring]

'cuz it looks so cool. come on bro. represent! :p

Shaolin has some crazy classical guard stances in the forms. I'd never use any of them for real... except maybe after my opponent was defeated already, just to add insult to injury.

Ah, i was actually wondering about this. Are those "crazy classical guard stances" really classified as guards stances? I could never tell if they were actual guard stances or stances that i thought were guard stances simply because i couldn't figure out what else they could be

[EternalSpring]

If you get to the point where a guard is a good idea, then your guard should be a 'typical" western boxing one, hands up.
Any other guard may give clue to your opponent that you actually know how to fight, why lose the element of the unknown and show your intent?

Yea, that's actually what I do at times now. I haven't done it very often, but when i have, it was w/ my Ving Tsun where I "masked" my kung fu as boxing so that when necessary, the rear hand would become my Wu Sao and the lead hand would be my kiu.

since you also share a similar view on the western boxing guard, i was wondering, do you see the "jab" from this stance as being a "short cross?" This may sound strange, but i mainly ask because the shaolin I know so far mainly consists of punches that would probably be classified as crosses. I always just figured that a jab in accordance with my Shaolin would be like a, i guess, a "lead cross."

[EternalSpring]

http://renfist.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/ren-ren-2.jpg

nice, this is similar to how i keep my stance at times except that my lead hand would be closer to eye level and my body and legs would drop a bit lower and be a bit more slanted. What kinda Kung fu do these guys practice?

[EternalSpring]

u tellin me this isnt a fighting stance?

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3640/3586343113_e99100fc0d.jpg

:D

lolol, of course it is. I'm guessing the trick is to lure your opponent to your bum and then knock him out when he least expects it :p Must work wonders in prison lol.

[RenDaHai]

I'm a little confused though in regards to the "hands at the solar plexus" stance/guard. Is that for the purpose of not being tense while not making contact? or is it also considered a good place to keep the arms to respond to an attack?


They don't need to be in any kind of guard, its just good to keep your hands ready and in the centre and close yourself. Any guard you make prematurely gives away more information in many ways than is desirable, unless you intend to use your guard as a misdirection. Hands in this position don't tire, don't obscure visibility, cannot be captured easily, quick to move high, quick to move low and do not immediately show aggression. An example of this position would be perhaps fiddling with your shirt buttons, or arms folded (except not intertwined). Just not giving anything away, yet ready.

The associated Shaolin principle is 'Quan bu li xin' which means 'your fist doesn't move far from your heart.' If you see some really old school village Kung Fu of Shaolin pai they will hold the fists one on top of the other at the solar plexus and take slow deliberate steps around one another when they begin to fight.

[RenDaHai]

Ah, i was actually wondering about this. Are those "crazy classical guard stances" really classified as guards stances? I could never tell if they were actual guard stances or stances that i thought were guard stances simply because i couldn't figure out what else they could be

Every shaolin ba, move, technique has 'You Fang, you gong' that is contains both defence and offence. Most are instantaneous movements and not designed to be maintained so there are actually very few you would classify as a guard stance although every stance will contain a guarding movement.

[bawang]

http://muye24ki.com/muye24ki/pic/22_gyunbub_pic03.gif

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yea, that's actually what I do at times now. I haven't done it very often, but when i have, it was w/ my Ving Tsun where I "masked" my kung fu as boxing so that when necessary, the rear hand would become my Wu Sao and the lead hand would be my kiu.

since you also share a similar view on the western boxing guard, i was wondering, do you see the "jab" from this stance as being a "short cross?" This may sound strange, but i mainly ask because the shaolin I know so far mainly consists of punches that would probably be classified as crosses. I always just figured that a jab in accordance with my Shaolin would be like a, i guess, a "lead cross."

I "box" ala Tyson ( suits my Hung kuen to a T) so yes, the jab is more of a "cross".

[Frost]

I "box" ala Tyson ( suits my Hung kuen to a T) so yes, the jab is more of a "cross".

What you have a habit of biting ears whilst inclose??!!!:)

[sanjuro_ronin]

What you have a habit of biting ears whilst inclose??!!!:)

You say that as if it was a bad thing :confused:

[Frost]

You say that as if it was a bad thing :confused:

Yep sorry Maybe its just a different class of guys we get to fight over here in the UK but I would not want any of their blood in my mouth lol

Now headbutting ala Holyfield v Tyson that I positively endorse, still remember the day I was practising clinch work with my bak mei sifu I was tieing up his hands and looking to knee, he stepped in and headbutted my (in the chest but it made me think)

[Lucas]

here watch this mma fight. the guy in the black pants is a shaolin kungfu guy. the other guy torres is no push over hes got a really good record.

depending on who you are fighting your guard will adjust. if you fighting a wrestler or grappler it will differ from a kickboxer or boxer. for instance you'll see him use a pretty standard shaolin defensive guard, slilght side stance, with the lead hand lower to anticipate the shoot to get a underhook quickly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GtW0a00LCE

[SiuHung]

The kung fu guard is simple: Put your **** hands up.