Sam Bai Fut...

[EternalSpring]

...those three bows at the end of the Biu Jee, at least in most of the Yip Man Ving Tsun lineages, i think.

It's not that long ago that i was lucky enough to learn the Biu Jee from my sifu, but because of that, I do realize that my understanding of the movements is nowhere near where it should be.

That said, I've been thinking a lot about the three bows. I know for a fact that whatever I know about it so far is the seed planted by my sifu, but was wondering how others viewed it.

I've seen my si tai gong in a video talk about how it's to train the body so that if someone pulls the arm, the body and head will not move with it (which i personally dont fully understand yet, but i guess i will one day after training more)

I've been taught by my sifu that bowing and coming back up trains using the rising of the body with the hands to give them a type of rising energy supported by the entire body.

I've also seen other lineages in which they claim the bowing is a deep practice that completely strengthens a persons Ving Tsun.

For the most part, these forums to me are a place to learn about new ideas that I could later bring to my kung fu family and learn more about as I ask my sifu new questions. So I'm very interested in hearing different views on this movement from those who are willing to share. What are your views?

(inb4 answers like, "just keep training," i assure you i will, but that's not the type of answer i was hoping for lol)

[LFJ]

Biuji is about recovery. So the most basic recovery concept of the bows is that you are in a position with your head down, or trying to stand back up, and you first need to throw your arms up before your head in order to block any unseen attack/ flying object. You don't want to come up head first and get it knocked off.

[EternalSpring]

Biuji is about recovery. So the most basic recovery concept of the bows is that you are in a position with your head down, or trying to stand back up, and you first need to throw your arms up before your head in order to block any unseen attack/ flying object. You don't want to come up head first and get it knocked off.

I see what you mean, interesting, I didn't see it like that but it works perfectly with what my sifu said. Like you said, it's probably is the basic recovery concept considering it's all that my sifu has told me for now, but i def like the way you put it in regards to why the hands go up first. Thanks, def is more food for thought for me.

[LFJ]

Other recovery ideas include when being pulled off balance into such a disadvantageous position bent over you need a double wusau position on the way down to protect from lower attacks.

Another idea on the rising part where the arms go up first is to defend against attacks from the rear. You need to turn around to face the opponent, but don't want to turn around with your face leading, and the hands if down have to travel too far to guard against anything. So as you turn around you raise your elbow which will guard your upper gate quickly because the upperarm is short and reaches there almost immediately.

There are many follow ups after that depending on the situation, such as arm wraps, but this just provides the recovery concept. I in fact successfully used it two days ago against someone grabbing and pulling the collar of my hoodie from the rear. I quickly raised my arm as I turned around and my elbow connected with their mouth, immediately causing them to release the grab and start holding their mouth instead. I didn't need to do anything else.

[Wayfaring]

Just for an additional perspective, sam bai fut is a completely seperate form in weng chun. Here's a video:

http://www.desivideonetwork.com/view/3p8zevzzb/shaolin-weng-chun-saam-bai-fut-by-sifu-ignatius-siu/

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=EternalSpring;1167785]I see what you mean, interesting, I didn't see it like that but it works perfectly with what my sifu said. Like you said, it's probably is the basic recovery concept considering it's all that my sifu has told me for now, but i def like the way you put it in regards to why the hands go up first. Thanks, def is more food for thought for me.
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Who is your sifu and who is your sigung--- just to clarify what kind of sam pai fut you are likely to be doing--that will make comments easier to make I think. With good wishes,

joy chaudhuri

[Phil Redmond]

Saam Bai Fut (Thrice Praying to Buddha), refers to the Wu Saos in SLT in some lineages.

[Eric_H]

In YM WC I had learned Saam Bai Fut in Biu Jee as a recovery when your body became bent. Much like has already been discussed, bringin the guard up slightly ahead of the body so you don't get clocked on the way up. Also saw it used as a defense against knees... I would not recommend it as a defense against knees.

In HFY, we have a rolling platform called Sam Bai Fut. It's part of our Deui Ying Kiu Sao Rolling. Most of it's focus is on maintaining a neutral upright body to deny entry to a grappler. It's pretty useful IMO.

[EternalSpring]

Other recovery ideas include when being pulled off balance into such a disadvantageous position bent over you need a double wusau position on the way down to protect from lower attacks.

Another idea on the rising part where the arms go up first is to defend against attacks from the rear. You need to turn around to face the opponent, but don't want to turn around with your face leading, and the hands if down have to travel too far to guard against anything. So as you turn around you raise your elbow which will guard your upper gate quickly because the upperarm is short and reaches there almost immediately.

There are many follow ups after that depending on the situation, such as arm wraps, but this just provides the recovery concept. I in fact successfully used it two days ago against someone grabbing and pulling the collar of my hoodie from the rear. I quickly raised my arm as I turned around and my elbow connected with their mouth, immediately causing them to release the grab and start holding their mouth instead. I didn't need to do anything else.

oh wow, thanks for the extra applications! I never even really thought of the application you mentioned at the end but now that i understand that intent, i def see how that works!

[EternalSpring]

Just for an additional perspective, sam bai fut is a completely seperate form in weng chun. Here's a video:

http://www.desivideonetwork.com/view/3p8zevzzb/shaolin-weng-chun-saam-bai-fut-by-sifu-ignatius-siu/

Nice, yea I've heard of the form from Weng Chun. This probably deserves it's own thread, but are Weng Chun and Ving Tsun considered to be similar or do the practitioners claim that they're two very different arts?

I mean, i do see similarities in the video, but i was wondering if it's similar in application of the techniques. Is the Sam Bai Fut in Weng Chun a form that is learned later on like in Yip Man Ving Tsun?

[EternalSpring]

Who is your sifu and who is your sigung--- just to clarify what kind of sam pai fut you are likely to be doing--that will make comments easier to make I think. With good wishes,

joy chaudhuri

Well, my Si Tai Gong is Moy Yat (unfortunately, ive never met him though). I can PM your or anyone else my sigong and sifu's name, I mainly try to not talk about them on the forums just in case I ever turn into some jerk who makes idiotic rants or displays bad character (not that i plan to lol), and if someone used the search feature on their names, i wouldn't want it linked to me should i ever say something dumb that they wouldn't approve of. I guess i hold a super traditional view on those type of things lol.

Also, as strange as it sounds, I actually like to hear the views of people outside of my family. I know that not many people will agree with this, but I feel that every interpretation of the techniques can be applied by any practitioner if they just let go of the "this is my family's way and i only do this" mentality, because in the end we're all Ving Tsunners!

[EternalSpring]

Saam Bai Fut (Thrice Praying to Buddha), refers to the Wu Saos in SLT in some lineages.

oh wow, i didn't know that. guess my thread title may have seemed a bit misleading then; either way, new info is always good to learn! What lineages refer to the Wu Sao's in SLT as Saam Bai Fut? Do they also have a name for the bows similar to the movements at the end of the Yip Man lineage Biu Jee form?

[EternalSpring]

In YM WC I had learned Saam Bai Fut in Biu Jee as a recovery when your body became bent. Much like has already been discussed, bringin the guard up slightly ahead of the body so you don't get clocked on the way up. Also saw it used as a defense against knees... I would not recommend it as a defense against knees.

In HFY, we have a rolling platform called Sam Bai Fut. It's part of our Deui Ying Kiu Sao Rolling. Most of it's focus is on maintaining a neutral upright body to deny entry to a grappler. It's pretty useful IMO.

wow, a defense against the knees? I can understand why you dont recommend it. I dont see how it could be an optimal defense, although i guess it's for emergency purposes. Plus I probably shouldn't judge since there are others that could probably use it well.

The HFY Sam Bai Fut def sounds interesting. It's probably not the same, but my sisook also once mentioned it's use against grappling in a manner similar to a sprawl, if that makes sense lol.

Not to sound like a noob (although i am one lol), but when you say it's a rolling platform, considering that it's related to going against a grappler, did you mean "rolling" in the Ving Tsun sense or more like the BJJ sense?

[Eric_H]

The HFY Sam Bai Fut def sounds interesting. It's probably not the same, but my sisook also once mentioned it's use against grappling in a manner similar to a sprawl, if that makes sense lol.

Not to sound like a noob (although i am one lol), but when you say it's a rolling platform, considering that it's related to going against a grappler, did you mean "rolling" in the Ving Tsun sense or more like the BJJ sense?

We don't use it like a sprawl. Closest thing we have to a sprawl is a 9 point (elbow) guard for the mid gate.

It's a bridge arm training platform, like push hands or chi sao is a platform. Rolling simply implies there's a cyclical sequence to it.

[Vajramusti]

Well, my Si Tai Gong is Moy Yat (unfortunately, ive never met him though). I can PM your or anyone else my sigong and sifu's name, I mainly try to not talk about them on the forums just in case I ever turn into some jerk who makes idiotic rants or displays bad character (not that i plan to lol), and if someone used the search feature on their names, i wouldn't want it linked to me should i ever say something dumb that they wouldn't approve of. I guess i hold a super traditional view on those type of things lol.

Also, as strange as it sounds, I actually like to hear the views of people outside of my family. I know that not many people will agree with this, but I feel that every interpretation of the techniques can be applied by any practitioner if they just let go of the "this is my family's way and i only do this" mentality, because in the end we're all Ving Tsunners!
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Thx. No problem. I dont need the other names. I believe that on You tube you can find Brian Tufts
doing our biu jee. There is a lot to the details of the form. Regaining the line is one of the functions that practicing the biu jee form makes easier.

joy chaudhuri

[EternalSpring]

We don't use it like a sprawl. Closest thing we have to a sprawl is a 9 point (elbow) guard for the mid gate.

It's a bridge arm training platform, like push hands or chi sao is a platform. Rolling simply implies there's a cyclical sequence to it.

Ah i see. Man, the HFY ways are so intriguing, at least imo. Not that I want to change schools/sifus, but I do love learning about diff perspectives and opinions, do you have any suggestions besides the blog in your sig (which i actually really enjoy reading) that are good sources for learning about HFY Wing Chun?

[EternalSpring]

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Thx. No problem. I dont need the other names. I believe that on You tube you can find Brian Tufts
doing our biu jee. There is a lot to the details of the form. Regaining the line is one of the functions that practicing the biu jee form makes easier.

joy chaudhuri

Oh wow, I only got to look at the youtube vid just now, but when i read your post i never imagined we'd have so many differences in our Biu Jees (not that it's a bad thing at all). I def saw some movements that aren't done the same way in my form but are most certainly useful to train. Like the part where Mr. Tuft does the kwai/karp jian (sp?) while taking steps forward without shifting. I also dont have train the kicks at the end in my Biu Jee form, and our sam bai futs are diff too. Def gave me a lot of food for thought. Tyvm!

[Xian]

Nice, yea I've heard of the form from Weng Chun. This probably deserves it's own thread, but are Weng Chun and Ving Tsun considered to be similar or do the practitioners claim that they're two very different arts?

I would say at some point in history it was connected but what you see today is quite distinctive. We have Fa Kuen, Sap Yat Kuen, Saam Pai Fut, 3 forms of Mok Yan Chong, Jong Kuen, Long Pole and Fu Mo Wu Dip Dao.

We have also differences among our surviving families in the issue of Shen Fa/Ging Fut. For example our Lo Family focuses a lot more on generating power from the hole body through "bowing". Other families do not focus on this issue that much.


I mean, i do see similarities in the video, but i was wondering if it's similar in application of the techniques. Is the Sam Bai Fut in Weng Chun a form that is learned later on like in Yip Man Ving Tsun?

I have praticed different Yip Man versions and then Siu Lam Weng Chun from Lo Family. Its a different thing. Its more like a Southern Shaolin Soft Fist. We do not focus only on centerline and have a lot of spiral movements. Following by that we also have a different bodystructure and a different fighting demanour.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwoTOT9BHP0


Kind regards,
Xian

[Eric_H]

Ah i see. Man, the HFY ways are so intriguing, at least imo. Not that I want to change schools/sifus, but I do love learning about diff perspectives and opinions, do you have any suggestions besides the blog in your sig (which i actually really enjoy reading) that are good sources for learning about HFY Wing Chun?

My first WC teacher co-wrote a book about Wing Chun called "Mastering Kung Fu." Unfortunately, the book had a lot of the political bent driven by the VTM behind it's views on history and some of the assertions it drew. If you're willing to look past some of that, there's still a lot of good Hung Fa Yi material in there.

Right now the HFY Family as an organization are readying a lot more videos and such on youtube. I'll try and keep the blog updated with more info regularly (right now I'm the only author) but we'll see what type of schedule I can keep up with time constraints.

Not sure where you live, maybe you'll be able to attend a workshop one day.

[Wayfaring]

My first WC teacher co-wrote a book about Wing Chun called "Mastering Kung Fu." Unfortunately, the book had a lot of the political bent driven by the VTM behind it's views on history and some of the assertions it drew. If you're willing to look past some of that, there's still a lot of good Hung Fa Yi material in there.

And if you're not? Just kidding :D

Actually I'll endorse the MKF book as well. I think the slant on history was probably offensive to about 99% of the WCK community, but that's mostly just in the first part of the book. If you look through especially the second half it actually lines out some great fundamentals, terms, training methods of HFY.



Right now the HFY Family as an organization are readying a lot more videos and such on youtube. I'll try and keep the blog updated with more info regularly (right now I'm the only author) but we'll see what type of schedule I can keep up with time constraints.

Not sure where you live, maybe you'll be able to attend a workshop one day.

Eric's blog has really good content - worth looking over, IMO.