One inch punch

[thedreamer7]

Is it for real?
Is it part of Wing Chun?
Thoughts?
http://www.wingchuntaoist.com/2012/04/one-inch-punch-in-wing-chun.html

[k gledhill]

LMAO ! another 2ft punch ...it ends up back at his shoulder. This shows a complete lack of conceptual understanding.

Yes its real, it implies force without retraction. Lat sao jik chun is a concept we use in conjunction with this idea. We drill with the same ideas in chi-sao so we dont telegraph or create our OWN lat sao jik chun, which is why I am laughing.
Imagine your BOTH making forward energy between fok/jum & tan as you rotate and one of you deliberately allows a hit by taking your hand away or retracts it ....the striker using short force SHOULD be able to drive you back 3-4 ft each time without hesitation and NOT moving the hand back. Requires mma gloves or chest padding, rib fractures will occur. And also requires you understand distances to enter into to make this force when fighting, not too far, not too close or you lose the force range.
The reason for this attention to impact is that we strike you as you make retracting arm actions followed by another attacking force...without retracting past the elbows, why we dont draw all the way back to hit . Why Jut sao is a short action, not a long pull back...: )

Cardinal rule #1 if your hand is touching another dont retract it, if you like your teeth. VT skill is in the details.

loi lau hoi sung -intercept what comes to hit you and stay centered with it ~ lat sao ji chung when the hand retracts to make another action ,issue inch punch force ,multiplied by body weight in motion, timed to hit incoming heads...attack the attack.

Imagine this force with timed attacking an entering opponent, this is our method. I have used this timing intuitively in fights and guys literally go flying in the air landing on their arse several feet away. We can further enhance the force with sharp rotational hip and elbow unity, breaking body parts regularly, not boards.

[imperialtaichi]

Cardinal rule #1 if your hand is touching another dont retract it, if you like your teeth.

Haha, love that. I'm going to steal your quote ;)

[imperialtaichi]

Is it for real?
Is it part of Wing Chun?
Thoughts?
http://www.wingchuntaoist.com/2012/04/one-inch-punch-in-wing-chun.html

One inch punch that doesn't need drawing back. Go to 1min20sec.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUG7WY4zi6k

[sanjuro_ronin]

One of the great "BS's" in the MA.
Show me a clip of someone, anyone doing it in an actual fight.
Yeah.

Does inch power exist? yes of course it does.
Is it like anything that we ever see demo'd?
No, of course it' not.

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Wxe3u-K8H8
Amost as hard as the lady in "you hit like a girl 'thread.:)

Check your link.

[Happy Tiger]

ooops, thanks. infernal machine.:o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Wxe3u-K8H8

[sanjuro_ronin]

ooops, thanks. infernal machine.:o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Wxe3u-K8H8

To do am "impact" test on a "inch strike" ( and that wasn't one by the way), the force measurement should NOT be in LBS of force, because that will always be far lower than a typical "momentum" strike ( for obvious reasons), but what an inch strike SHOULD have is a very high "kinetic energy" measurment.
Think comparing an sledge hammer to a bullet:
The hammer will have a very high impact force in lbs of force and the bullet a low one, but the bullet will have a very high kinetic energy reading.

[Happy Tiger]

To do am "impact" test on a "inch strike" ( and that wasn't one by the way), the force measurement should NOT be in LBS of force, because that will always be far lower than a typical "momentum" strike ( for obvious reasons), but what an inch strike SHOULD have is a very high "kinetic energy" measurment.
Think comparing an sledge hammer to a bullet:
The hammer will have a very high impact force in lbs of force and the bullet a low one, but the bullet will have a very high kinetic energy reading.
This is a good point. I've always said ' a good inch punch shouldn't push the victim back at all. They should just double up and break where tbey are.

[trubblman]

Is it for real?
Is it part of Wing Chun?
Thoughts?
http://www.wingchuntaoist.com/2012/04/one-inch-punch-in-wing-chun.html

Shouldn't that be the one inch push?

[imperialtaichi]

To do am "impact" test on a "inch strike" ( and that wasn't one by the way), the force measurement should NOT be in LBS of force, because that will always be far lower than a typical "momentum" strike ( for obvious reasons), but what an inch strike SHOULD have is a very high "kinetic energy" measurment.
Think comparing an sledge hammer to a bullet:
The hammer will have a very high impact force in lbs of force and the bullet a low one, but the bullet will have a very high kinetic energy reading.

In my opinion, the effect should be like "dropping a concrete bag" by one inch onto the opponent. It's not done by the extension of the arm, but the "free falling" of the body structure.

[thedreamer7]

Shouldn't that be the one inch push?
Explain?
Wood breaking not good enough for you?

[Hendrik]

Should I say this?


first of all, these are very GOOD and respectable clips.

but None of the above is an WCK inch punch according to the ancient WCK description.


The first one is a shoulder punch trying to mimic inch punch.

The second one is a stand push even the punch travel less distance.

The third one is a punch misleading with Qi myth and still it is not an inch punch.


None of these fit the ancient description of one could be touched at major part of the body and could be propel at the instant. that is the inch punch. meaning it send out power pulse at the contact point with very minimum move in the contact point. and right before and right after the pulse is sended to the contact point. the body is in a relax state. and non of the above has a relax body to satisfy the above.


saying these above, i know I am getting myself into trouble. hahaha.
So, do NOT believe me may be I am just dreaming and having some fantasy.

[thedreamer7]

Should I say this?


first of all, these are very GOOD and respectable clips.

but None of the above is an WCK inch punch according to the ancient WCK description.


The first one is a shoulder punch trying to mimic inch punch.

The second one is a stand push even the punch travel less distance.

The third one is a punch misleading with Qi myth and still it is not an inch punch.


None of these fit the ancient description of one could be touched at major part of the body and could be propel at the instant. that is the inch punch. meaning it send out power pulse at the contact point with very minimum move in the contact point. and right before and right after the pulse is sended to the contact point. the body is in a relax state. and non of the above has a relax body to satisfy the above.


saying these above, i know I am getting myself into trouble. hahaha.
So, do NOT believe me may be I am just dreaming and having some fantasy.

This is hilarious...
What ancient description? A punch a punch.
The objective is to hit from a short distance.

http://www.wingchuntaoist.com/2012/04/one-inch-punch-in-wing-chun.html

Which is what I see here.
Please lets not invent fantasy/fiction.

[GlennR]

This is hilarious...
What ancient description? A punch a punch.
The objective is to hit from a short distance.

http://www.wingchuntaoist.com/2012/04/one-inch-punch-in-wing-chun.html

Which is what I see here.
Please lets not invent fantasy/fiction.

And what i see here is a guy pulling his arm back at least a foot if not 18 inches.

The monks clip was more impressive

[Hendrik]

This is hilarious...
What ancient description? A punch a punch.
The objective is to hit from a short distance.

http://www.wingchuntaoist.com/2012/04/one-inch-punch-in-wing-chun.html

Which is what I see here.
Please lets not invent fantasy/fiction.

hahaha, that is why i told you to not take me serious. i love fantasy.

[imperialtaichi]

One of the great "BS's" in the MA.
Show me a clip of someone, anyone doing it in an actual fight.
Yeah.

Does inch power exist? yes of course it does.
Is it like anything that we ever see demo'd?
No, of course it' not.

It is not BS, although you are right about in application it is not like the demo.

To keep WC movement sharp and fast, every movement and every time we contact the opponent we should be issuing the inch power. It's kinda like jack hammering until the wall falls down then we go in for the kill.

[thedreamer7]

And what i see here is a guy pulling his arm back at least a foot if not 18 inches.

The monks clip was more impressive

Ok perhaps 12 inches:)
Still it demonstrates short range power.
Also the board is being held by a string.
The strike is still impressive.

[Happy Tiger]

Speaking of various methods and power signatures of short punching, got a quick question.
Every one remembers the little book Bruce Lee's One and Three Inch Power Punch by sifu James DeMille.
Now, we've all seen BL do the inch. His posture and method of power generation seems completely different than that shown and dissertated in DeMilles book.
Is Lee Useing Tai Chi short power or at least 'waist shake fat ging,or what? His body in that sideward stance he loved so much. It, though effective, is not much like what sifu DeMille teaches. Reading that book was the first time I ever heard of the 'gravity free fall' power. Who really taught DeMille?

[Hendrik]

seriously,

WCK power generation consist of

Body type, force vector or line type, point type.

each type has a different ways of generate power or different power generators, transmission, and effect.

Inch Punch is belongs to the force vector of power generation type.


unless these things are make clear, inch punch will be fuzzy and confuse and no way to have a clear handling process.


the above three types of examples utube clip are all the body type of power generation. These type of power type doesnt release Pulse. thus, it is not fajin. Fajin means release force vector. this type of power type are subject to grappling or trapping, thus in close body combat it is not effective because once a joint or limb is jam. the power generation is terminated or interupted.

This body type of power generation is also called the explode type. meaning the limp has to extended outward to generate or explode.

while the line type could be both explode and implode. where the power could be generated even while contracting the limb. Thus, a punch doesnt has to pull back and extend to deriver power. one can send out pulse per contact. this is the characteristics of the line or force vector type. thus, the six directional force vector come into play because now one deals with line of force not body limb.
it also deal with penetration or force vector focusing.

As it says, others travel the bow and I travel the bow string. bow string is the line or force vector. where the six bow generate and handling the power while deliver out via force vector manner.


Wing Chun 1850, there are lots of things and very scientific if using today's language to describe them. too bad one get into all kind of guessing game such as Nim Lik and Qi Power causing even more confusion.

As many knows, to decode Yik Kam 1850 or pre 1850 writting, i have proposed a five layers catagorization. these five layers are the body layer, mind layer, breathing layer, force vector and momentum layer, Qi and energy transportation layer.

yes, each layer is as real as physical. the detail in every layer could be clearly describe and implement.


without these five layers ways of catagorization, one get into confusion and guessing work because one really doesnt know what is really going on and the relationship among them.


so the bottom line is, if one doesnt know the line type of power generation, one will not know how to do an inch punch with precision and repeatably for real life application.

So what is a line type power generation? what is it looks like and what it is do, and how can it send out pulse?

Simple, just take a basket ball with both hand infront of your chest or center line, shoot the basket ball to the wall in front of you. imagine the basket ball is the force pulse. that's all. your hand doesnt move to the wall or move much, you body and arm and hands are in relax state before and after you shoot the ball out. but the basket ball shoot the wall. that is inch power. and the basket ball doesnt has to be straight shoot out, it can be spin in out, and at the contact point it can hit with a single penetration or a spinning penetration. that is the handling of the six directional force vectors, controlling how deep or what type of force vector trajectory will penetrating into the wall.




Wing Chun 1850, it is much much more scientific then we think. there is no myth.

Well, you dont read my post , you are just dream there is a post like this. tomorrow when you wake up you forget all of what you have read. sweet dream.

[sanjuro_ronin]

It is not BS, although you are right about in application it is not like the demo.

To keep WC movement sharp and fast, every movement and every time we contact the opponent we should be issuing the inch power. It's kinda like jack hammering until the wall falls down then we go in for the kill.

Words...many words...and yet never seen in a fight in the way it is demoed AND drilled.
You wanna see a practical application of "short distance" power?
Don't look at demos, look at fights.
Here is a little clue as to why we don't see it in a fight:
Opponent is hitting back and NOT standing still.


Of course is anyone can show me "inch power" in a fight, that would be great.

[Hendrik]

Words...many words...and yet never seen in a fight in the way it is demoed AND drilled.
You wanna see a practical application of "short distance" power?
Don't look at demos, look at fights.
Here is a little clue as to why we don't see it in a fight:
Opponent is hitting back and NOT standing still.


Of course is anyone can show me "inch power" in a fight, that would be great.

Inch power is a different way of power generation. It is independent with opponent is hitting back or standing still. Shooting a cross bow is not poking a spear.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Inch power is a different way of power generation. It is independent with opponent is hitting back or standing still. Shooting a cross bow is not poking a spear.

Power generation and the practical application of it, are two different things.
Pulling the cross bow is NOT shooting it in combat when under attack and being shot at and over run by the enemy.

[kung fu fighter]

Should I say this?


first of all, these are very GOOD and respectable clips.

but None of the above is an WCK inch punch according to the ancient WCK description.


The first one is a shoulder punch trying to mimic inch punch.

The second one is a stand push even the punch travel less distance.

The third one is a punch misleading with Qi myth and still it is not an inch punch.


None of these fit the ancient description of one could be touched at major part of the body and could be propel at the instant. that is the inch punch. meaning it send out power pulse at the contact point with very minimum move in the contact point. and right before and right after the pulse is sended to the contact point. the body is in a relax state. and non of the above has a relax body to satisfy the above.


saying these above, i know I am getting myself into trouble. hahaha.
So, do NOT believe me may be I am just dreaming and having some fantasy.

Hendrik is right on the money! in fact an inch is already to much distance. I can strike without pulling back when my hand or any other of my body part is already in contact with the target.

[k gledhill]

Words...many words...and yet never seen in a fight in the way it is demoed AND drilled.
You wanna see a practical application of "short distance" power?
Don't look at demos, look at fights.
Here is a little clue as to why we don't see it in a fight:
Opponent is hitting back and NOT standing still.


Of course is anyone can show me "inch power" in a fight, that would be great.

The inch punch is a test to show the force available, not 1:1 execution :D Sure if I am in a clinch or get tied up, but thats not the goal, inch punch a guy a guy into submission :D take that! and this, and that ! Out of a movie.

Inch force is proving the ability to make Knockout force from little or no retraction, adopting a line of force from the heel to the fist via the kinetic chain.
I can further add to the basic 'line of force', with rotational axis and striking, aka refacing to hit in an exchange of fighting. I can simply face and strike after hitting another person to hit another , etc...timing the strikes to coincide with movement and shifting. I have used this all the time fighting, the force of the strikes is shown by the way the guys fall back proportionately to the force I give them in a straight line, facing them.
You dont SEE the force, many try to make force incorrectly using upper body pushes, shoulders etc...to compensate for lack of ability. The force emanates from the heel into the ground to engage the quadriceps of the thigh muscles, into a facing pelvis thrust, to an inward elbow, to a fist/palm. A PULSE of energy that will fracture bones easily, take teeth out, break noses, jaws, allow short eye jabs, powerful head shots with palm strikes....and knockouts. The pulse is a meeting of ground and fist <> in opposite directions at exactly the same time, so the skill is trusting a partner to tell you when they FEEL it coming from the leg, not the upper body.

The basic idea of VT is to learn the line of force, move it to issue it, face/chase, angle to reacquire the ability to issue force and not be overwhelmed standing front and center.
Our drilling takes on this format and goals, we test within the drills to ensure force is available, we show errors of alignment, etc...

We also have an inch kick ability and yeah I have also seen the 'flying through the air backwards' effect it has on guys unlucky enough to receive it during fights in bars.
Our feet are aligned so the 'pulse' from the base foot is driving the lead foot, using the pelvic position as before. And no we dont put the foot onto a guy in a fight and inch kick either :D

[LoneTiger108]

The on-inch punch fme is the resulting power issued using the signature Ging method of Wing Chun.

At an early stage in my training I started this training method on the wooden man and I feel that many miss the concept of 'how it is used' by trying to explain that it is within everything we do. That isn't so correct imho.

FWIW I met Jim Demile many moons ago in the UK and he explained that he adapted his method of 'facing' with opposite lead arm/leg for his inch-punch because he had much more weight/width than Bruce and it just felt stronger for him that way.

He did say Bruce could do it that way too, but preferred the sideway method for demo because it looked more dramatic ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

The inch punch is a test to show the force available, not 1:1 execution :D Sure if I am in a clinch or get tied up, but thats not the goal, inch punch a guy a guy into submission :D take that! and this, and that ! Out of a movie.

Inch force is proving the ability to make Knockout force from little or no retraction, adopting a line of force from the heel to the fist via the kinetic chain.
I can further add to the basic 'line of force', with rotational axis and striking, aka refacing to hit in an exchange of fighting. I can simply face and strike after hitting another person to hit another , etc...timing the strikes to coincide with movement and shifting. I have used this all the time fighting, the force of the strikes is shown by the way the guys fall back proportionately to the force I give them in a straight line, facing them.
You dont SEE the force, many try to make force incorrectly using upper body pushes, shoulders etc... the force emanates from the heel into the ground to engage the quadriceps of the thigh muscles, into a facing pelvis thrust, to an inward elbow, to a fist/palm. A PULSE of energy that will fracture bones easily, take teeth out, break noses, jaws, allow short eye jabs, powerful head shots with palm strikes....and knockouts.

The basic idea of VT is to learn the line of force, move it to issue it, face/chase, angle to reacquire the ability to issue force and not be overwhelmed standing front and center.
Our drilling takes on this format and goals, we test within the drills to ensure force is available, we show errors of alignment, etc...

We also have an inch kick ability and yeah I have also seen the 'flying through the air backwards' effect it has on guys unlucky enough to receive it during fights in bars.
Our feet are aligned so the 'pulse' from the base foot is driving the lead foot, using the pelvic position as before. And no we dont put the foot onto a guy in a fight and inch kick either :D

Kevin has the correct.
Now, if only there was proof of it !
;)

[k gledhill]

Kevin has the correct.
Now, if only there was proof of it !
;)

I am sure theres a hospital record, arrest record, court case :D We didnt have you-tube in my fighting days. Still working on "Hat Cam" for those random moments of force exchange ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

I am sure theres a hospital record, arrest record, court case :D We didnt have you-tube in my fighting days. Still working on "Hat Cam" for those random moments of force exchange ;)

But certainly we can see these prime examples of "inch force" in action now can't we?

I've seen the practical application of inch power in the ring, seen it by Thai fighters and even MMA fighters.
So...why not by the very people that "nutride" it?

[k gledhill]

But certainly we can see these prime examples of "inch force" in action now can't we?

I've seen the practical application of inch power in the ring, seen it by Thai fighters and even MMA fighters.
So...why not by the very people that "nutride" it?


Ah now I see your angle, I thought you where here for other reasons.

[Hendrik]

Kevin has the correct.
Now, if only there was proof of it !
;)

Go shoot a basket ball to the wall as I have suggest. Everyone can do that there is no mystery . And in fact everyone has done it. It is just one doesn't recogzine it and develop it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ah now I see your angle, I thought you where here for other reasons.

Now now, you know me well enough to know that, to me, the litmus test of ANY MA principle is combat.
There is no trolling here dude, far from that.
I know inch power, I have seen it and felt it BUT none of that changes that what we typiclaly see id CRAP and you know that too.
Others can hide behind the theory and by trying to compare a MA activity to ANYTHING BUT fighting, BUT WE ( you and I) KNOW what is the ONLY test.
Am I right?

[Hendrik]

Now now, you know me well enough to know that, to me, the litmus test of ANY MA principle is combat.
There is no trolling here dude, far from that.
I know inch power, I have seen it and felt it BUT none of that changes that what we typiclaly see id CRAP and you know that too.
Others can hide behind the theory and by trying to compare a MA activity to ANYTHING BUT fighting, BUT WE ( you and I) KNOW what is the ONLY test.
Am I right?


Why don't you share in your own words in details what is inch power? How to generate it?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Why don't you share in your own words in details what is inch power? How to generate it?

You really haven't been reading anything that has been written, have you?
But here, let me show you in PRACTICE DURING a FIGHT:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWqA88T8ews

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mo5nqfP_ArY

[Hendrik]

You really haven't been reading anything that has been written, have you?
But here, let me show you in PRACTICE DURING a FIGHT:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWqA88T8ews

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mo5nqfP_ArY

I don't get what you are leading into.


What is the power type and mechanics of WCK inch punch according to you, is my question.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I don't get what you are leading into.


What is the power type and mechanics of WCK inch punch according to you, is my question.

And I answered.
The clips above show ( highlight) the PRACTICAL application of short distance striking and one even does it while moving BACKWARDS.
And they do it without silly terms or archaic mumble jumbo that is no more than double talk from people that like to hear themselves speak.

[k gledhill]

Now now, you know me well enough to know that, to me, the litmus test of ANY MA principle is combat.
There is no trolling here dude, far from that.
I know inch power, I have seen it and felt it BUT none of that changes that what we typiclaly see id CRAP and you know that too.
Others can hide behind the theory and by trying to compare a MA activity to ANYTHING BUT fighting, BUT WE ( you and I) KNOW what is the ONLY test.
Am I right?

Granted many are deluding themselves with practical application to a moving assailant. Its one thing to hit in a demo, quite another to do it in chaos, calmly.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Granted many are deluding themselves with practical application to a moving assailant. Its one thing to hit in a demo, quite another to do it in chaos, calmly.

And that is the point isn't it?
Anyone can "fa jing" a static target, whatever it may be.
But we train in a FIGHTING system and what is done and drilled and trained is to be DONE DURING a fight, with the other guy beating on Us with as much gusto as we are beating on him.
You will never develop the attributes to use ANYTHING in a real fight by doing ONLY static and compliant drills.
It MUST eventually be applied in practical terms and guess what?
It won't be anything like it is in the drill/demo.

[LoneTiger108]

You really haven't been reading anything that has been written, have you?
But here, let me show you in PRACTICE DURING a FIGHT:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWqA88T8ews

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mo5nqfP_ArY

I have and it looks like, from your clips, that you have just been reading something else too!

Both clips do not show the unique Wing Chun Choone Ging at all, unless you take the approach of John and believe inch force is in everything you do. Maybe every strike can have an 'inch force peak' at the end of a right hook for example, but this isn't the ultimate purpose of learning the method.

I liked Kevs expression actually (how surprising!) but still not exactly how I would describe it's 'use' ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

I have and it looks like, from your clips, that you have just been reading something else too!

Both clips do not show the unique Wing Chun Choone Ging at all, unless you take the approach of John and believe inch force is in everything you do. Maybe every strike can have an 'inch force peak' at the end of a right hook for example, but this isn't the ultimate purpose of learning the method.

I liked Kevs expression actually (how surprising!) but still not exactly how I would describe it's 'use' ;)

Show me a practical application of what you are saying.

[Hendrik]

And I answered.
The clips above show ( highlight) the PRACTICAL application of short distance striking and one even does it while moving BACKWARDS.
And they do it without silly terms or archaic mumble jumbo that is no more than double talk from people that like to hear themselves speak.

Ok.

1. These are your view. But others have theirs.

2. Not all Short distance striking Are the same. And there are Atleast 3 types of different short distance striking Mechanics.

3. WCK has its terminology it's mechanics , similar to every culture has its own tradition. If you don't like that that is fine.

[LoneTiger108]

Show me a practical application of what you are saying.

I have nothing for you of myself but I am looking through some clips to highlight how it is 'used' and finding some interesting comparisons.

Leave it with me...

[thedreamer7]

Wing Chun 1850, there are lots of things and very scientific if using today's language to describe them. too bad one get into all kind of guessing game such as Nim Lik and Qi Power causing even more confusion.


What are going on about 1850 Wing Chun for? Were you there? Where have you read this stuff? How is this actually relevant?

The article:
http://www.wingchuntaoist.com/2012/04/one-inch-punch-in-wing-chun.html

Shows a demonstration for short range power and how to use Wing Chun to train and develop it.
Does is not? Is it not a demonstration of short range power and something that looks genuine?

[Hendrik]

I have and it looks like, from your clips, that you have just been reading something else too!

Both clips do not show the unique Wing Chun Choone Ging at all, unless you take the approach of John and believe inch force is in everything you do. Maybe every strike can have an 'inch force peak' at the end of a right hook for example, but this isn't the ultimate purpose of learning the method.

I liked Kevs expression actually (how surprising!) but still not exactly how I would describe it's 'use' ;)


I agree on the clips.

Kevin's has a good WCK view.

[Hendrik]

What are going on about 1850 Wing Chun for? Were you there? Where have you read this stuff? How is this actually relevant?

The article:
http://www.wingchuntaoist.com/2012/04/one-inch-punch-in-wing-chun.html

Shows a demonstration for short range power and how to use Wing Chun to train and develop it.
Does is not? Is it not a demonstration of short range power and something that looks genuine?


The clip is a demo expressing a person idea on inch punch . Is it or is it WCK inch power that is a different story.

If you applied Kevin idea or the basket ball test, you will see the different of this clip.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I have nothing for you of myself but I am looking through some clips to highlight how it is 'used' and finding some interesting comparisons.

Leave it with me...

Sure, I would love to see your opinion on the matter.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I know that you guys really WANT to THINK that these is a uniqueness to "WC inch power", much like SPM peeps and Pak Mei dudes want to think the same thing about theirs, but the harsh reality is this:
Show it in practical terms and you will see that is NOT the case.
The human body works the way it works, period.

[LoneTiger108]

What are going on about 1850 Wing Chun for? Were you there? Where have you read this stuff? How is this actually relevant?

The article:
http://www.wingchuntaoist.com/2012/04/one-inch-punch-in-wing-chun.html

Shows a demonstration for short range power and how to use Wing Chun to train and develop it.
Does is not? Is it not a demonstration of short range power and something that looks genuine?

Actually I have just realized this is Sifu Leo and yes his standard is very good, but this is his students blog in NYC? No wonder he's getting it in the neck!! :eek:

[LoneTiger108]

I know that you guys really WANT to THINK that these is a uniqueness to "WC inch power", much like SPM peeps and Pak Mei dudes want to think the same thing about theirs, but the harsh reality is this:
Show it in practical terms and you will see that is NOT the case.
The human body works the way it works, period.

Well, I know you want to think that it isn't, but I know that the way WCK that I was taught trains and utilizes inch force IS different than most other examples I see. Like Hendriks Basketball analogy. This suggests that there is a flowing contact that kind of rolls (as the ball rolls through the hand) until it hits the peak of the players fingers and then that last little/inch 'dig' to throw the ball. This IS inch force, but it is using a 'build up' or sorts.

I found this example of some Judo throws and IMHHHO the exact same principle is clearly evident http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3HisfQ3jL8

Not quite the same as your punching/elbow clips, but again not exactly how the Wing Chun I know expresses this method. We can do it, without the build up being SEEN (supposedly!)

But there, I tried!!!

[thedreamer7]

Actually I have just realized this is Sifu Leo and yes his standard is very good, but this is his students blog in NYC? No wonder he's getting it in the neck!! :eek:

What do you mean by that?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well, I know you want to think that it isn't, but I know that the way WCK that I was taught trains and utilizes inch force IS different than most other examples I see. Like Hendriks Basketball analogy. This suggests that there is a flowing contact that kind of rolls (as the ball rolls through the hand) until it hits the peak of the players fingers and then that last little/inch 'dig' to throw the ball. This IS inch force, but it is using a 'build up' or sorts.

I found this example of some Judo throws and IMHHHO the exact same principle is clearly evident http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3HisfQ3jL8

Not quite the same as your punching/elbow clips, but again not exactly how the Wing Chun I know expresses this method. But there, I tried!!!

I am not talking about drilling it or developing it but EXPRESSING it in a fight.

[LoneTiger108]

I am not talking about drilling it or developing it but EXPRESSING it in a fight.

But do you get where I am coming from with regards to the differences?? Because if you do you should be able to find me a clip of something similar being used in a fight!!!

[LoneTiger108]

What do you mean by that?

Simply that this forum does seem to throw curve balls at anyone who does demos or tries to express what they do 'without fighting'! And the NYC area is very competitive for business!!

I have also found some that seem to hate us Brits too and seeing as Sifu Leo is a local Londoner, well you see what I mean... :o

[sanjuro_ronin]

But do you get where I am coming from with regards to the differences?? Because if you do you should be able to find me a clip of something similar being used in a fight!!!

Good luck with that because that is my point, you won't find that video.
When inch power IS expressed in a fight and not a demo or compliant drill, it tends to look like the clips I posted, REGARDLESS of who it was developed or whatever "engine' is driving it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

:D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IS5fVYAGKsQ&feature=endscreen&NR=1

[thedreamer7]

Simply that this forum does seem to throw curve balls at anyone who does demos or tries to express what they do 'without fighting'! And the NYC area is very competitive for business!!

I have also found some that seem to hate us Brits too and seeing as Sifu Leo is a local Londoner, well you see what I mean... :o

That's a shame I would have fought Sifu Leo would have commanded more respect considering he was chosen to choreograph the Ip Man movies (worked with Ip Chun and Sammo Hung). All Wing Chun enthusiasts have benefited from the exposure those films have given to Wing Chun.

[Hendrik]

I know that you guys really WANT to THINK that these is a uniqueness to "WC inch power", much like SPM peeps and Pak Mei dudes want to think the same thing about theirs, but the harsh reality is this:
Show it in practical terms and you will see that is NOT the case.
The human body works the way it works, period.

1. Until one can clearly describe what it is. One cannot tell is it unique or not.

2. A strike can be done in Atleast 3 different ways with the same human body. So it is important to find out which way is it?

3. Until one knows which way one cannot conclude on practical or not.

[Hendrik]

:D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IS5fVYAGKsQ&feature=endscreen&NR=1


In my opinion only,

this is not WCK inch power. it is far away from what it is.

and also it is very risky to playing with this type of stuffs on the chest area.

[Hendrik]

That's a shame I would have fought Sifu Leo would have commanded more respect considering he was chosen to choreograph the Ip Man movies (worked with Ip Chun and Sammo Hung). All Wing Chun enthusiasts have benefited from the exposure those films have given to Wing Chun.


The issue is not him. but his intepretation of WCK inch power is not what it is.

These Movies and shows business are great for promotion, however, it will get one into big trouble in real life application. which I agree totally with sanjuro_ronin.

[sanjuro_ronin]

1. Until one can clearly describe what it is. One cannot tell is it unique or not.

2. A strike can be done in Atleast 3 different ways with the same human body. So it is important to find out which way is it?

3. Until one knows which way one cannot conclude on practical or not.

We've gone over this Hendrick, our understanding of biomechanics doesn't mesh, you prefer "other terms".

[sanjuro_ronin]

In my opinion only,

this is not WCK inch power. it is far away from what it is.

and also it is very risky to playing with this type of stuffs on the chest area.

It was a playful demo on Carlos part.

[k gledhill]

The issue is not him. but his intepretation of WCK inch power is not what it is.

These Movies and shows business are great for promotion, however, it will get one into big trouble in real life application. which I agree totally with sanjuro_ronin.

Yeah like making YM punch guys in the chest :o We punch the chest becasue it can take punishment for drilling purposes, fighting :rolleyes: take that ! chest punch, chest punch,:D

[thedreamer7]

The issue is not him. but his intepretation of WCK inch power is not what it is.

These Movies and shows business are great for promotion, however, it will get one into big trouble in real life application. which I agree totally with sanjuro_ronin.

Well this is just your opinion on an interpretation. I guess his opinion carry's more weight otherwise you would be the one who choreographs on those movies :)
Also respect the fact he is willing to display his skills on clips, rather than sit in an chair and criticize.

[sanjuro_ronin]

This is a prime example as to why I don't care much for demos or "wording" on how one is to develop inch power or even drills that are unrealistic based on how oen will be using the inch power one is developing, there are to many interpretations, too many "words" and not enough DOING.
You know who has the best inch power and has developed it the right way?
The guy that can use it in a real fight and knock the other guy out, that's who.

[thedreamer7]

This is a prime example as to why I don't care much for demos or "wording" on how one is to develop inch power or even drills that are unrealistic based on how oen will be using the inch power one is developing, there are to many interpretations, too many "words" and not enough DOING.
You know who has the best inch power and has developed it the right way?
The guy that can use it in a real fight and knock the other guy out, that's who.

Good point. Hence my original question was around the article, regarding the training suggested and power demonstrated in the clips.

http://www.wingchuntaoist.com/2012/04/one-inch-punch-in-wing-chun.html

Not to listen to rubbish about whether this is Wing Chun or not, or ifs it authentic from the 1850s. A punch is a punch.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Good point. Hence my original question was around the article, regarding the training suggested and power demonstrated in the clips.

http://www.wingchuntaoist.com/2012/04/one-inch-punch-in-wing-chun.html

Not to listen to rubbish about whether this is Wing Chun or not, or ifs it authentic from the 1850s. A punch is a punch.

Fair enough and here is an issue:
Inch power tends to be drilled and trained ( hence developed) with the striking arm almost straight ( about 75% extended because this is the position of greatest strength in terms of forward force generation).
Yes?
Yet it will never be used like that in a real fight unless one is fighting some sort of invalid.
So, why develop it in a way that it will probably n ever be used?

[thedreamer7]

Fair enough and here is an issue:
Inch power tends to be drilled and trained ( hence developed) with the striking arm almost straight ( about 75% extended because this is the position of greatest strength in terms of forward force generation).
Yes?
Yet it will never be used like that in a real fight unless one is fighting some sort of invalid.
So, why develop it in a way that it will probably n ever be used?

Well yes. But the article does state that it is often used as a party trick. However it is useful in close combat situations and thus is useful in combat. I assume in a close combat situation the arm would not be straight That's why I liked the second clip in the article by Sifu Leo as you see him do 2 strikes, which me seems a bit more like a real combat situation.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well yes. But the article does state that it is often used as a party trick. However it is useful in close combat situations and thus is useful in combat. I assume in a close combat situation the arm would not be straight That's why I liked the second clip in the article by Sifu Leo as you see him do 2 strikes, which me seems a bit more like a real combat situation.

Would have been far better to have them put on some gear and drill them in sparring, but ...that may be asking for too much right?
Heck, even just actually hitting something that is NOT help rigid in place would be good.

[Hendrik]

Well this is just your opinion on an interpretation. I guess his opinion carry's more weight otherwise you would be the one who choreographs on those movies :)
Also respect the fact he is willing to display his skills on clips, rather than sit in an chair and criticize.


Perhaps you are totally correct.


or

Perhaps those are making movies got nothing to do with real world. it is just a fantasy.


eventhough I am a WCner, the following is my reference

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7FY-YYLcwk&feature=related


not this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYthf03I4fA



I sure can be totally dreaming and wrong. so do not believe me.

[thedreamer7]

Perhaps those are making movies got nothing to do with real world. it is just a fantasy.


Perhaps. Perhaps you shouldn't knock those who promote Wing Chun for all of us or argue religiously on what is real Wing Chun, but rather use this forum to promote knowledge and enhancement of our skills.

[Hendrik]

Perhaps. Perhaps you shouldn't knock those who promote Wing Chun for all of us or argue religiously on what is real Wing Chun, but rather use this forum to promote knowledge and enhancement of our skills.

Good idea.

[imperialtaichi]

SJR, sometime I wonder if you are trolling.

You keep saying the same thing over and over again. People describes to you the mechanics behind the methods and you say "Just Words". Until you have invented a method of "crossing hands through cyberspace" unfortunately it will always be words, and I guess you will never be content.

SJR, I respect that you are a fighter and you have a practical and realistic approach; but you are NOT the only person on this forum with realistic approach. If you stop saying "NO" for a moment and start having an open-minded discussion, and stop thinking that you are the only one who knows what's going on, may be you can see a lot of people on this forum have very good things to say.

For your information, I think the best guys doing the inch-power thing are not the MMA guys, but the Sumo's.

[imperialtaichi]

Perhaps. Perhaps you shouldn't knock those who promote Wing Chun for all of us or argue religiously on what is real Wing Chun, but rather use this forum to promote knowledge and enhancement of our skills.

I like that :)

Unfortunately, there will always be those who criticise everthing but has very little knowledge to share.

[MOSHE]

see comment with the videos


http://youtu.be/W6FIA8IuHqU

[sanjuro_ronin]

SJR, sometime I wonder if you are trolling.

You keep saying the same thing over and over again. People describes to you the mechanics behind the methods and you say "Just Words". Until you have invented a method of "crossing hands through cyberspace" unfortunately it will always be words, and I guess you will never be content.

SJR, I respect that you are a fighter and you have a practical and realistic approach; but you are NOT the only person on this forum with realistic approach. If you stop saying "NO" for a moment and start having an open-minded discussion, and stop thinking that you are the only one who knows what's going on, may be you can see a lot of people on this forum have very good things to say.

For your information, I think the best guys doing the inch-power thing are not the MMA guys, but the Sumo's.

If trolling equals calling people out on unproven claims then I am guilty.
I can put out a very impressive list of WC sifu's that I have trained with, far more than many here know but it is irrelevant because I have never seen ANY of them use inch power in a fight ( or seen them fight for that matter) BUT I do NOT deny their skill nor that they do have "inch power" and that is NOT the argument I am making.
What I am saying is this:
Inch power exists but it is NOT like it is demoed and it is NOT used in practices as it is drilled ( hence I am calling "BS" on those demos and unrealistic drills) and it is also NOT anything unique ( in terms of expression) to WC or any other southern style.

And I only ask that those saying that it is unique to show some evidence of such.

Is that trolling?

As for sumo and sumai, yes there expression of inch power is excellent and so are judokas and wrestlers too.

[sanjuro_ronin]

see comment with the videos


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoG_gaBhgYw
http://youtu.be/HZ7JvdhGKPA
http://youtu.be/2s_o52D7TiI

I can do an inch punch break with a board held by elastic bands.
Can also do one on a concrete slab standing up with nothing holding it other than it's own inertia.
These demos are, like breaking slabs to test your iron palm, great little tests and to be honest, almost anyone can be taught how to do them even with minimal MA experience.
That isn't the issue at all, really.
The issue is using it for real, outside the controlled and "static" environment of a demo or test.

[MOSHE]

I can do an inch punch break with a board held by elastic bands.
Can also do one on a concrete slab standing up with nothing holding it other than it's own inertia.
These demos are, like breaking slabs to test your iron palm, great little tests and to be honest, almost anyone can be taught how to do them even with minimal MA experience.
That isn't the issue at all, really.
The issue is using it for real, outside the controlled and "static" environment of a demo or test.

because i can do it when seating ,i can do it any time when moving, the purpose is to be abble to bring your strenth any part of you body when and where you need it

its not like you throw a dead mass to break even something in air

even you have to not use any support from your legs and ground
is it what you are doing ?

[sanjuro_ronin]

because i can do it when seating ,i can do it any time when moving, the purpose is to be abble to bring your strenth any part of you body when and where you need it

its not like you throw a dead mass to break even something in air

even you have to not use any support from your legs and ground
is it what you are doing ?

I think you missed my point.
The demo/drill is fine and there are many others that are fine too but NONE of them show how inch power is used in a fight.

[MOSHE]

I think you missed my point.
The demo/drill is fine and there are many others that are fine too but NONE of them show how inch power is used in a fight.


i think ,i understood.
i can use it in a fight simply because my hands are independents (or free) from my body

thats part of the purpose of wing chun

[imperialtaichi]

I think you missed my point.
The demo/drill is fine and there are many others that are fine too but NONE of them show how inch power is used in a fight.

I openly invite anyone to meet me to see how inch-power is used in KL22 in a very practical and realistic situations.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I openly invite anyone to meet me to see how inch-power is used in KL22 in a very practical and realistic situations.

Cool, would love to see that.
Or maybe you can spar one of your students/partners and show us?
Greatly appreciated :)

[k gledhill]

Sanjuro I think you're missing my idea of using 'inch force' in a fight compared to demo. I show the force I am capable of creating without withdrawing an arm to a chest or a board, etc...but I ALWAYS have that force available to me through training drilling.
I use timing and distance practice to execute the fighting aspect. I say it often, but I have hit guys with the 'punch' in fights and depending on the timing, its the same 6ft butt slide back on their arse, oddly like a inch punch demo, just with real intent and impact to a persons jaw/face and no chair to fall into. I have received compliments from onlookers in fights too for the punching ability ....just VT ;)
If VT tactically awaits your entry , then you can see we are waiting for the opportunity to deliver this as we intercept you, increasing the force proportionately to your entry, head on clash.
I used this timing in fights with great effect. I trained it by simply swinging a heavy bag back and forth and hitting it at the entry to me, or swinging sideways and hitting it as it enters to me or reaches the apex of the swing....it is a heavy punch with hips, elbows, torque all combined with the aligned structured 'pulse' of the chosen striking hand/palm/fist/finger/neck cut....
I can also use the short force that doesn't retract for po=pai . the 'force line' is a basic idea from SLT.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sanjuro I think you're missing my idea of using 'inch force' in a fight compared to demo. I show the force I am capable of creating without withdrawing an arm to a chest or a board, etc...but I ALWAYS have that force available to me through training drilling.
I use timing and distance practice to execute the fighting aspect. I say it often, but I have hit guys with the 'punch' in fights and depending on the timing, its the same 6ft butt slide back on their arse, oddly like a inch punch demo, just with real intent and impact to a persons jaw/face and no chair to fall into. I have received compliments from onlookers in fights too for the punching ability ....just VT ;)
If VT tactically awaits your entry , then you can see we are waiting for the opportunity to deliver this as we intercept you, increasing the force proportionately to your entry, head on clash.
I used this timing in fights with great effect. I trained it by simply swinging a heavy bag back and forth and hitting it at the entry to me, or swinging sideways and hitting it as it enters to me or reaches the apex of the swing....it is a heavy punch with hips, elbows, torque all combined with the aligned structured 'pulse' of the chosen striking hand/palm/fist/finger/neck cut....
I can also use the short force that doesn't retract for po=pai . the 'force line' is a basic idea from SLT.

I didn't miss your idea Kev, I understood it.
My point is that I don't see it being "distinct" from what others striking ( or grappling for that matter) at short range do also.

[k gledhill]

I didn't miss your idea Kev, I understood it.
My point is that I don't see it being "distinct" from what others striking ( or grappling for that matter) at short range do also.

Add the missing technical ability of da sao jik siu sao and we see a subtlety missed by many VT fighters. A technique others share too, Go-Ju...but go-ju hits low for the same ideas not elbows in...

[wingchunIan]

for what its worth, we train the inch energy at all ranges of the strike. Inch energy like most things in WC is just a label, the concept is to be able to strike without retraction and accelerate rapidly in a very short distance to develop power. Is it unique to WC? - I would say no, but WC is the art that practises the concept more than any other and has it as a mainstay. In both of the clips posted by SJR the fighters acheived a knock out by accident, they were as surprised as their opponent but WC trains you to expect this kind of strike. The practical applications are many, maybe you have your hands up in "the fence" type position, inch energy would be used to strike with the lead hand; if you strike and the shot is intercepted but then the obstacle moves away it can again be applied, there are many others including ground work. Would you look to put your hand close before striking - of course not, could your hand end up close to an opponent / through their guard in the melee of a fight absolutely especially when up close and personal, the inch punch concept simply gives a WC practitioner the opportunity to take advantage of the oppening.

[Happy Tiger]

I don't think I've used inch power as described in a single punch ever, real combat or otherwise. One thing I do like to do, which I have used in chi sao and in grappling is 'inch pulsing' from kwun sao to po pai jarng. This little/big pulse through both arms when partialy stalled can really shock my opponent. It can help secure a better position by shimming past their energy sweet spot and in the case of po pai you can get em high and low at once. attack and attack...works for me using short pulse power.Inch power from both arms at once is cool and I'm a pain in the butt to my chi sao partners for using it. Jut sao also makes use of short power too, does it not?

[sanjuro_ronin]

In both of the clips posted by SJR the fighters acheived a knock out by accident, they were as surprised as their opponent but WC trains you to expect this kind of strike.

Er, NO.
Not sure what videos you were looking at but short elbows are common in MT and Anderson Silva has ko'd TRAINED fighters with that right many a times.
Where you got the notion that they were surprised is beyond me.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Add the missing technical ability of da sao jik siu sao and we see a subtlety missed by many VT fighters. A technique others share too, Go-Ju...but go-ju hits low for the same ideas not elbows in...

Nice pick up there Kev, the goju connection was well mentioned.
Look up Taira Sensei in regards to how some Goju expresses that power.

[Happy Tiger]

see comment with the videos


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoG_gaBhgYw
http://youtu.be/HZ7JvdhGKPA
http://youtu.be/2s_o52D7TiI
the trouble with this demo series is one can pull the board towards oneself at the same time as punching effectively doubling the availible power. I can relate to this from the idea of 'neck pulling hand to short face punch', though. Can you do it sitting down with the board hanging from the ceiling? That would be impressive. I appreciate the vids though. I like seeing ya'll in action. I'm doing afew vids myself right now to join the 'Pick yer clips ta s***'club ;)

[Vajramusti]

Wow! the wing chun forum right at this moment seems to have more viewers than any of tthe forums including the general one.!!

joy c

[Happy Tiger]

How does inch power relate to deep curving punches such as 'haymakers',hooks and even weirder,uppercuts?. Does it change the game a bit? Deeply curved punches such as these take advantage of physics such as curve of acceleration and centrifugal force. That's why curving punches are so **** hard. Can one maximise short power with the advantages of deep curved power? Do other curve punch specialists like choy ley fut do this kind of short power?Or can you not apply these types of 'jing' to this family of strikes?

[sanjuro_ronin]

How does inch power relate to deep curving punches such as 'haymakers',hooks and even weirder,uppercuts?. Does it change the game a bit? Deeply curved punches such as these take advantage of physics such as curve of acceleration and centrifugal force. That's why curving punches are so **** hard. Can one maximise short power with the advantages of deep curved power? Do other curve punch specialists like choy ley fut do this kind of short power?Or can you not apply these types of 'jing' to this family of strikes?

You can apply inch power to ANY movement of the human body.
Uppercuts, for example, are one of the most effective strikes in which to apply "inch power".
Downward strikes also of course.

[Wayfaring]

I tend to look at the inch punch more like a circus trick or demo trick. There are other such tricks to do with breaking things.

Of course the concept is sound - to try to generate a great deal of velocity and power in a short range of motion. Many times to do that effectively there has to be larger ranges of various types of motion in other parts of the body.

A short boxing hook is an example of functional inch power IMO. With the right timing catching someone coming in it's a very short distance the hand travels from the side of the head to the connection point - but the hips make a larger circular arc.

Here's a decent clip of someone working the Mexican double bag with what looks like a good deal of short range power:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pb5dSM0kOfA

[Yoshiyahu]

Sanjuro is right on the money. He is simply hitting on the end results.

The ability to use the inch power in real time in a offensive situtation against an enemy or combatant.

There should be three classifications when discussing Inch Power

1.Training
2.Theory and principle
3.Real Application

There are various ways one can generate inch power. In fact Inch Power is a bit of misnomer to me. Because it alludes to short energy. For instance the power can be great at less than Inch too. But the key is training...You need to train inch power with tools and drills to develop it so it can do damage.

Tools: Pole, Wooden Dummy, Heavy Bag, Hanging Sand Bag, and Wall Bag among other things.

The Siu Lien Tao actually teaches you the basics of Short Power. Everything is dealing with the movements or forms of inch power...Even the defenses posses short cutting energy if done correctly. The Key rather your defending, punching or uprooting is to use other elements of your structure to generate force. Its Not just arm strength or power behind inch power. Its your body and structure being use in unison which delivers more power. For instance you use the breath out upon striking to expel force and penetrate. You breath in upon pushing to repel or uproot your opponent. In addition you can sink while punching to send penetrating force deeper into the target. You push while rising to add uprooting force to your repulsion. But Inch Power is best describe as encomony of motion. Meaning I don't have to draw my hand back to strike you. I can continously strike you from any direction or any hand placement. When you watch a traditional Kyoshukin Match where he drills his opponent with that Makiarawa board body strike. He always draws back his hand then lauches it into his opponent. He chambers before he punches. Which in turn gives him longer power but slower speed.

Generating force with Inch Power is accomplished also when you turn or shift the body. Utilize your Cho Ma will generate more power so you don't have to draw back the hand. Because you are swinging the body forward. Also Toh Ma and Biu Ma allow you to generate more force by driving into the opponent and converging your entire mass behind the strike. The Inch Power allows you more speed. The more you train and build up your inch power the heavier it is.

Utilizing Inch Power in a Fight: You use it all the time when you spar. It may not be a mysterious chi blast that leaves your opponent dazed or unconscious from a single touch. Inch or Twitch Power is basically speed over strength. In other words its not really the same as Fajin in my opinion. But Fajin can accompany Inch Power right along with Toh Ma or Cho Ma or Biu Ma. So in essence all those elements including the breathing can be summed all into Inch Power...

Deciphering the difference between what sort of force your generating is what sets a push apart from a punch...You can push, vibrate or punch. You make the punch snap at the end or you can make it heavy. These are a few different types of forces that can accompany your punch and change the nature of the inch power your utilizing. PUSHING or Repelling someone with inch power is Demostrated because its a visable way to test the distance of the force your emmiting. Pushes can be done in a way where they don't hurt your partner. But of course you can combine penetrating force with a push to do more damage. A Push can useful to uproot or destroy your opponents posture as well. Depending on what your tactic is. Wing Chun Sifu's show the push when demostrating inch power because its a safe way to show it.

Inch Power is not something special or mythical. Its just a term for things people do everytime they fight for real. In real fight outside of the dojo you don't kick or punch from having your hands chambered. Some styles of martial arts fight like that...So Inch Power theory is design to say we do not chamber kicks or chamber punches...We just punch from where ever the hand is. With out other elements to accompany your inch power you will lack force...So make up your mind if your using fajin, a snap, or a push. Add to that if your sinking or rising when you land the strike. Will you move forward or shift or turn your horse while you strike. Are you breathing in or breathing out upon impact. These are some of the elements you want to be mindful of as your striking with inch power.

This is My opinion on Inch Power and How i apporach the subject.



A good page i like concerning the topic at hand.

How to Train inch Power (http://en.allexperts.com/q/Kung-Fu-2254/Pushing-inch-power.htm)

[Hendrik]

This shown a very serious intending of learning. however, the seeker has not find the answer.

also, the link on the bottom is not helping but diverting the issue to different stuffs.




we need to face it, the three sets are not effective without the inch power ready engine. and inch power engine needs a full body conditioning.


pole, push up..... all are just a tool, how to use them is the key and not pole, push up is default to inch power.


May be it is the time for WCner to raise up to another level to ask for what is the clear definition and process of handling inch power. instead of letting everyone claim everything is inch power and getting more and more confusion.






Sanjuro is right on the money. He is simply hitting on the end results.

The ability to use the inch power in real time in a offensive situtation against an enemy or combatant.

There should be three classifications when discussing Inch Power

1.Training
2.Theory and principle
3.Real Application

There are various ways one can generate inch power. In fact Inch Power is a bit of misnomer to me. Because it alludes to short energy. For instance the power can be great at less than Inch too. But the key is training...You need to train inch power with tools and drills to develop it so it can do damage.

Tools: Pole, Wooden Dummy, Heavy Bag, Hanging Sand Bag, and Wall Bag among other things.

The Siu Lien Tao actually teaches you the basics of Short Power. Everything is dealing with the movements or forms of inch power...Even the defenses posses short cutting energy if done correctly. The Key rather your defending, punching or uprooting is to use other elements of your structure to generate force. Its Not just arm strength or power behind inch power. Its your body and structure being use in unison which delivers more power. For instance you use the breath out upon striking to expel force and penetrate. You breath in upon pushing to repel or uproot your opponent. In addition you can sink while punching to send penetrating force deeper into the target. You push while rising to add uprooting force to your repulsion. But Inch Power is best describe as encomony of motion. Meaning I don't have to draw my hand back to strike you. I can continously strike you from any direction or any hand placement. When you watch a traditional Kyoshukin Match where he drills his opponent with that Makiarawa board body strike. He always draws back his hand then lauches it into his opponent. He chambers before he punches. Which in turn gives him longer power but slower speed.

Generating force with Inch Power is accomplished also when you turn or shift the body. Utilize your Cho Ma will generate more power so you don't have to draw back the hand. Because you are swinging the body forward. Also Toh Ma and Biu Ma allow you to generate more force by driving into the opponent and converging your entire mass behind the strike. The Inch Power allows you more speed. The more you train and build up your inch power the heavier it is.

Utilizing Inch Power in a Fight: You use it all the time when you spar. It may not be a mysterious chi blast that leaves your opponent dazed or unconscious from a single touch. Inch or Twitch Power is basically speed over strength. In other words its not really the same as Fajin in my opinion. But Fajin can accompany Inch Power right along with Toh Ma or Cho Ma or Biu Ma. So in essence all those elements including the breathing can be summed all into Inch Power...

Deciphering the difference between what sort of force your generating is what sets a push apart from a punch...You can push, vibrate or punch. You make the punch snap at the end or you can make it heavy. These are a few different types of forces that can accompany your punch and change the nature of the inch power your utilizing. PUSHING or Repelling someone with inch power is Demostrated because its a visable way to test the distance of the force your emmiting. Pushes can be done in a way where they don't hurt your partner. But of course you can combine penetrating force with a push to do more damage. A Push can useful to uproot or destroy your opponents posture as well. Depending on what your tactic is. Wing Chun Sifu's show the push when demostrating inch power because its a safe way to show it.

Inch Power is not something special or mythical. Its just a term for things people do everytime they fight for real. In real fight outside of the dojo you don't kick or punch from having your hands chambered. Some styles of martial arts fight like that...So Inch Power theory is design to say we do not chamber kicks or chamber punches...We just punch from where ever the hand is. With out other elements to accompany your inch power you will lack force...So make up your mind if your using fajin, a snap, or a push. Add to that if your sinking or rising when you land the strike. Will you move forward or shift or turn your horse while you strike. Are you breathing in or breathing out upon impact. These are some of the elements you want to be mindful of as your striking with inch power.

This is My opinion on Inch Power and How i apporach the subject.



A good page i like concerning the topic at hand.

How to Train inch Power (http://en.allexperts.com/q/Kung-Fu-2254/Pushing-inch-power.htm)

[imperialtaichi]

I didn't miss your idea Kev, I understood it.
My point is that I don't see it being "distinct" from what others striking ( or grappling for that matter) at short range do also.

We all share the same physiology and anatomy no matter what martial arts we do. We all have the same set of power generation methods and range of movement.

The only difference is different fighting styles place different emphasis on how the physics is being used.

[Happy Tiger]

This shown a very serious intending of learning. however, the seeker has not find the answer.

also, the link on the bottom is not helping but diverting the issue to different stuffs.




we need to face it, the three sets are not effective without the inch power ready engine. and inch power engine needs a full body conditioning.


pole, push up..... all are just a tool, how to use them is the key and not pole, push up is default to inch power.


May be it is the time for WCner to raise up to another level to ask for what is the clear definition and process of handling inch power. instead of letting everyone claim everything is inch power and getting more and more confusion.
YoshiYahu, that's as close to a compliment you're ever gonna get from Hendrik, so I'd take it like that.

[thedreamer7]

This shown a very serious intending of learning. however, the seeker has not find the answer.

also, the link on the bottom is not helping but diverting the issue to different stuffs.




we need to face it, the three sets are not effective without the inch power ready engine. and inch power engine needs a full body conditioning.


pole, push up..... all are just a tool, how to use them is the key and not pole, push up is default to inch power.


May be it is the time for WCner to raise up to another level to ask for what is the clear definition and process of handling inch power. instead of letting everyone claim everything is inch power and getting more and more confusion.

Does this article not get close?

http://www.wingchuntaoist.com/2012/04/one-inch-punch-in-wing-chun.html

[Hendrik]

Does this article not get close?

http://www.wingchuntaoist.com/2012/04/one-inch-punch-in-wing-chun.html

Nope.

It says alots but it doesn't tell what it is.

For example, what is lek? What is Jin? What is inch ? How to.......

Lately many people take movies as reality that is trouble.

This the of demo has no different then a karate punch in mechanics.



Just my opinion on mechanics not personal critics on the demo in the article.

This is not the WCK inch Jin because jamming this type of strike in the elbow or and shoulder will totally disarm the strike. Where a WCK inch Jin will continous the strike at the location of jamming.
Meaning, if one lost two bows in the striking process due to jamming, one still has four bows to power the strike. That is the characteristic of so called a close body art like WCK. The demo type of strike cannot do this but get totally disarm.


So, ask the question, if this punch is jammed is it get totally disable ? If yes. It is not WCK inch power because this type of power serve no advantage in close range as common karate or boxing punch. It doesn't fit the wck three sets.

[k gledhill]

A lot of VT today has lost a simple grasp of concepts

lin sil di da

loi lau hoi sun ~lat sao jik chun

da sao jik siu sao


We use the force without retraction in a ballistic manner, Newtons cradle (http://www.scientificsonline.com/newtons-cradle-5-inch.html) is an example. kinetic energy transfer while maintaining a static centrline offense / defense, lin sil di da.The sudden ballistic force needs to generate force from no retraction after a parry makes its own openings.
The parry we use cant withdraw and come back fast enough to generate force, we will be hit by 'our own thinking ' :D

Sticking hands isnt to stick and feel , its to stop the error of retraction to make force. Chi-sao isnt a fight so we use the ingrained technical improvements of , not retracting either parrying hand , nor striking hand , simultaneously. Also adding tremendous forces PROVED by demo stuff. 1cm or death by punch to throat is no joke.

[Hendrik]

You know,


The proper definition of

Lik is power or force

Jin is the changes power or force.


So, lik is analogy to speed, and Jin is analogy to acceleration.


Inch Jin means the changes of force in term of amplitude and direction in a very small traveling space.


And this raise an issue, some thinking WCK is having a structure and forward pressure.

The fact is WCK has adaptive changes force vector with dynamic structure to support the change of force.


A lot of VT today has lost a simple grasp of concepts

lin sil di da

loi lau hoi sun ~lat sao jik chun

da sao jik siu sao


We use the force without retraction in a ballistic manner, Newtons cradle (http://www.scientificsonline.com/newtons-cradle-5-inch.html) is an example. kinetic energy transfer while maintaining a static centrline offense / defense, lin sil di da.The sudden ballistic force needs to generate force from no retraction after a parry makes its own openings.
The parry we use cant withdraw and come back fast enough to generate force, we will be hit by 'our own thinking ' :D

Sticking hands isnt to stick and feel , its to stop the error of retraction to make force. Chi-sao isnt a fight so we use the ingrained technical improvements of , not retracting either parrying hand , nor striking hand , simultaneously. Also adding tremendous forces PROVED by demo stuff. 1cm or death by punch to throat is no joke.

[Robinhood]

I think you guys are talking about 2 different things, mostly how the body is making force.

Most of you guys are just showing regular body level power delivery, where as the other method is integrated structure application.

You won't arrive at the second method from practicing the first method.

And you won't even be able to comprehend the second method from talking about it.

I think most people think of the one inch punch from Bruce Lee demos, which is body level one inch punch., but is not MA one inch punch above body level.

Cheers

[Hendrik]

I think you guys are talking about 2 different things, mostly how the body is making force.

Most of you guys are just showing regular body level power delivery, where as the other method is integrated structure application.

You won't arrive at the second method from practicing the first method.

And you won't even be able to comprehend the second method from talking about it.

I think most people think of the one inch punch from Bruce Lee demos, which is body level one inch punch., but is not MA one inch punch above body level.

Cheers


Very true....

True.

[k gledhill]

Nice pick up there Kev, the goju connection was well mentioned.
Look up Taira Sensei in regards to how some Goju expresses that power.

http://youtu.be/ufuJUdLqBok

He mentions all the qualities of use, inward elbow, no retraction to deliver force, etc...there is even a jut sao at 2:00...:D
The horizontal fist opens the elbows out in Go-Ju, they use low angled strikes to cut down across another arm. Our vertical fist is a by product of inward elbows.

http://youtu.be/ma-JHqEdrXc @ :52 it looks like VT ; )

[Hendrik]

http://youtu.be/ufuJUdLqBok

He mentions all the qualities of use, inward elbow, no retraction to deliver force, etc...there is even a jut sao at 2:00...:D
The horizontal fist opens the elbows out in Go-Ju, they use low angled strikes to cut down across another arm. Our vertical fist is a by product of inward elbows.

http://youtu.be/ma-JHqEdrXc @ :52 it looks like VT ; )

These are still body type of power.

This is line type
http://m.youtube.com/?reload=3&rdm=m2075q2tr#/watch?desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DHyl8mg4Pg6o%26lis t%3DPL23C50A759ACF6A67%26index%3D1%26feature%3Dplp p_video&index=1&list=PL23C50A759ACF6A67&feature=plpp_video&v=Hyl8mg4Pg6o&gl=US

[k gledhill]

These are still body type of power.

This is line type
http://m.youtube.com/?reload=3&rdm=m2075q2tr#/watch?desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DHyl8mg4Pg6o%26lis t%3DPL23C50A759ACF6A67%26index%3D1%26feature%3Dplp p_video&index=1&list=PL23C50A759ACF6A67&feature=plpp_video&v=Hyl8mg4Pg6o&gl=US

Show me your demo Hendrik ?

[Hendrik]

Show me you demo Hendrik ?

Sure. When I make one.

However, Cxw line type and my line type is similar since both are tcma ima.
So, Cxw YouTube above is what you will get from me for now to explain what I mean by line type.

[Happy Tiger]

Sure. When I make one.

However, Cxw line type and my line type is similar since both are tcma ima.
So, Cxw YouTube above is what you will get from me for now.
I'd like to see that.

[GlennR]

http://youtu.be/ufuJUdLqBok

He mentions all the qualities of use, inward elbow, no retraction to deliver force, etc...there is even a jut sao at 2:00...:D
The horizontal fist opens the elbows out in Go-Ju, they use low angled strikes to cut down across another arm. Our vertical fist is a by product of inward elbows.

http://youtu.be/ma-JHqEdrXc @ :52 it looks like VT ; )

Think the makiwari could be useful in WC training Kev?

[k gledhill]

Think the makiwari could be useful in WC training Kev?

We have a wall bag and lsjc drills with partners, so we develop reflex reactions to deliver the 'force', not just 'have' it to issue.

[Yoshiyahu]

So elaborate by showing us how one generates inch power in application setting...




I think you guys are talking about 2 different things, mostly how the body is making force.

Most of you guys are just showing regular body level power delivery, where as the other method is integrated structure application.

You won't arrive at the second method from practicing the first method.

And you won't even be able to comprehend the second method from talking about it.

I think most people think of the one inch punch from Bruce Lee demos, which is body level one inch punch., but is not MA one inch punch above body level.

Cheers

[Robinhood]

So elaborate by showing us how one generates inch power in application setting...

This is .Hendricks thread, he is working on that with you already.

I will leave it in his hands.


Cheers

[Hendrik]

This is .Hendricks thread, he is working on that with you already.

I will leave it in his hands.


Cheers



everyone is free to express ideas. I am not neccessary correct too.

[Hendrik]

So elaborate by showing us how one generates inch power in application setting...

take a look at the CXW youtube. that is inch power when one master and get use to it. a different way compare with the karate or the usual wing chun demo way.

there is no setting, it is like a tiger doesnt need to set to jump on some animal. and not a cow setting up to be a tiger and make believe to be a tiger way.

[Vajramusti]

take a look at the CXW youtube. that is inch power when one master and get use to it. a different way compare with the karate or the usual wing chun demo way.

there is no setting, it is like a tiger doesnt need to set to jump on some animal. and not a cow setting up to be a tiger and make believe to be a tiger way.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CXW is simply superb. He has had great instruction and he has practiced faithfully for many years.
Years ago during a seminar in Germany(Hamburg?) an irresponsible person attacked CXW from behind.
Boom - out came a very short elbow-the person not only was out but his heart reportedly went into fibrillation-
fortunately emergency help was available and he recovered.Serious power should not be trifled with

There are wing chun masters who can issue equivalent power from coordinating everything in a good wing chun way.Most demos unfortunately are for visual effect.

Good instruction and regular practice are important

Some good boxers also have short power but most have a push rather than really issuing fajing.
Ali knocked out Liston in their second fight with a short "phantom punch".

joy chaudhuri

[Wayfaring]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Years ago during a seminar in Germany(Hamburg?) an irresponsible person attacked CXW from behind.
Boom - out came a very short elbow-the person not only was out but his heart reportedly went into fibrillation-
fortunately emergency help was available and he recovered.Serious power should not be trifled with

There are wing chun masters who can issue equivalent power from coordinating everything in a good wing chun way.Most demos unfortunately are for visual effect.


Stories like this do absolutely nothing to promote a realistic attitude towards power development in a TCMA.

What's wrong with this story? All the mysterious garbage about heart fibrillation and connecting it with some mysterious inner power you can develop from the mystic inch power.

We actually had an accident like this happen in grappling class. A student was struck in the chest and went into fibrillation. Luckily one of the students in class is an ER doctor. He did CPR, and then smacked the guy in the chest at a precise moment, and his heart started back up - no damage done.

The doctor went on to describe the one in a million odds necessary for that to have happened. First, the guy had a heart arrythmia - like a murmur. Second, he had to have been struck in the chest at a precise point - one one hundredth of a second earlier or later, and his heart would not have stopped.

This incident, like the one above, has absolutely nothing to do with some mysterious chi inch power that you can develop. It was a very specific medical accident.

[Vajramusti]

PS-no mysticism implied or expressed in my comments.. Plain old long term correct practice.

joy chaudhuri

[Vajramusti]

because i can do it when seating ,i can do it any time when moving, the purpose is to be abble to bring your strenth any part of you body when and where you need it

its not like you throw a dead mass to break even something in air

even you have to not use any support from your legs and ground
is it what you are doing ?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fine demo Moshe. You have to develop the weapon first in order to use it.

joy

[Wayfaring]

PS-no mysticism implied or expressed in my comments.. Plain old long term correct practice.

joy chaudhuri

Oh - my mistake. I thought you were implying the energy developed (whether by mysticism or long term correct practice) was used by CXW intentionally both to KO and to stop the heart of the "irresponsible person" who attacked him from behind.

I seriously doubt that. If that story is not fabricated, then it is a medical accident that has about 1 in a million odds of happening. Meaning if the same guy attacked CXW 1 million times, all but one of them his heart would not stop. If someone without a heart arrythmia attacked him, their heart would never stop.

[LoneTiger108]

How can this debate still be going on??!!

I think we should stop looking at the NEW movies about Ip Man and consider what message the OLD movies were attempting to tell us all those years ago...

One of my favourite all round scenes showing Wing Chun :) and if you look & listen carefully (or read the subs) you will hear references to some of what Hendrik is talking about (6 bows) and there is even the most famous scene EVER which actually is an attempt to explain Wing Chuns signature power at 3min 50sec

ENJOY!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbsvxEA1OM8

And just in case you want more lol!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JjtT37uAiI&feature=related

[LoneTiger108]

What does everyone think of Sifu Waynes explanation of the One Inch Punch here?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&fe...&v=_oSPKWBR0cA

[Hendrik]

What does everyone think of Sifu Waynes explanation of the One Inch Punch here?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&fe...&v=_oSPKWBR0cA

Hope that he explain his mechanics.

[Robinhood]

What does everyone think of Sifu Waynes explanation of the One Inch Punch here?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&fe...&v=_oSPKWBR0cA


That was pretty lame.

[Hendrik]

I suggest to all WCners, here on to use the six bow to explain the inch power mechanics. because six bow is WCK tradition science. that way we stay out of myth and have an actual insight on what is going on. we have a reference on how different people do the inch power based on the six bows.

[thedreamer7]

What does everyone think of Sifu Waynes explanation of the One Inch Punch here?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&fe...&v=_oSPKWBR0cA

Nothing to learn from there. Its Ving Tsun, what do you expect? Its more about belts and levels...

Think this is a more useful explanation...
http://www.wingchuntaoist.com/2012/04/one-inch-punch-in-wing-chun.html

[GlennR]

Nothing to learn from there. Its Ving Tsun, what do you expect? Its more about belts and levels...

Think this is a more useful explanation...
http://www.wingchuntaoist.com/2012/04/one-inch-punch-in-wing-chun.html

And ill say it again, he pulls his hand back plenty before the strike

Inch power (IMO) just doesnt go back at all

[MOSHE]

And ill say it again, he pulls his hand back plenty before the strike

Inch power (IMO) just doesnt go back at all

and this one
http://youtu.be/W6FIA8IuHqU

[GlennR]

and this one
http://youtu.be/W6FIA8IuHqU

Its better. You arent starting an inch apart then retracting 6-12 inches before you strike.
Yours is a short punch which is fine. Having said that, why do it sitting down?

[MOSHE]

Its better. You arent starting an inch apart then retracting 6-12 inches before you strike.
Yours is a short punch which is fine. Having said that, why do it sitting down?

i can do it without retracting this 5 centimeters and it should be like that

high level means not using the body and during contact one arm does one thing at the same than the second one and one of the legs are doing something else

if you engage all your body to generate this strength ,you are not able to do two differents things at the same time (what is one a specificity of WC)

regards

[LoneTiger108]

I suggest to all WCners, here on to use the six bow to explain the inch power mechanics. because six bow is WCK tradition science. that way we stay out of myth and have an actual insight on what is going on. we have a reference on how different people do the inch power based on the six bows.

I kind of agree. There needs to be familiar reference points for all of us, but my concern is some are simply not interested in learning about this stuff. Pride can be a damaging trait.

勁 Jin/Ging is an energy, and I have always referred to it as a 'nervous' energy because developing it requires the spine to be open so the nervous system is at it's maximum efficiency. Unfortunately this does not always happen in basic Wing Chun learning and people try and use brute strength. I was told an old story about ghosts once, and the fear that you experience when you get a shock. THIS is what we must learn to develop and nurture to fully understand what Ging we are tapping into. For me it was quite a spiritual experience, but then I was totally submerged in The Way at the time :eek:

If you look at basic translations you will see that it is also related to emotions, spirit and vigor. So, if anyone wants to know what Bruce was talking about when he said "use emotional content, not anger" then this is close to it ;) It can be there some days, and disappear the next lol!!

Now Choone Ging, or Inch Energy, is one expression. A burst, if you like, that can be isolated at one bow/joint or spread throughout all 6 pairs at once. It's instant. No build up required and it is very exhausting to use continually!! One of the reasons I put up the Warriors Two clip was because they attempt to share this idea through the "stretch out 2 fingers to catch the falling leaf" scene. Therefore suggesting the best form of energy is completely 'reflex' oriented based on what you feel, not what you see. This IMHO is what we should be aiming for in Wing Chun and why our interactive training is essential, because if we are not giving the right energy out then the person receiving isn't getting anything of any worth. It also implies that we do not need to 'use the ground or root' to excecute it, hence MOSHEs clip sitting down is completely plausible.

It also relates to the 'inch' difference of life and death. One inch out and you're in the wrong place and in trouble! Hence, why chisau exercise should always be done with seniors. There is no point in having 2 people of a basic standard letting off steam!! Totally pointless.

Then we have the vast differences in how we all interact (do chisau) which should have NEVER happend and until we all agree on exactly what is what it will be very difficult to then start to ingrain these ideas into curriculums etc for the masses. In conclusion, inch energy is learnt through interaction (mainly) so that 1-2-1 approach needs to be experienced...

[sanjuro_ronin]

I suggest to all WCners, here on to use the six bow to explain the inch power mechanics. because six bow is WCK tradition science. that way we stay out of myth and have an actual insight on what is going on. we have a reference on how different people do the inch power based on the six bows.

Yeah, because that's been working great so far, LOL !

Drop the archaic nonsense and use correct and current terms of biomechanics.

[Frost]

Yeah, because that's been working great so far, LOL !

Drop the archaic nonsense and use correct and current terms of biomechanics.

oh no you didnt raise common sense and science with hendrik did you :confused::eek:

[sanjuro_ronin]

oh no you didnt raise common sense and science with hendrik did you :confused::eek:

It may surpise you that I don't have any issues per say with archaic language and the TCMA "poems".
What I have issue with is when anyone takes them outside of the realm that were developed for and that is tradition.
ANYTHING we do can and IS explainable via physics as it relates to biomechanics, anything and everything we do.
While not everyone can explain in in such manners because of lack of knowledge and education in the subject and they may resort to analogies and metaphors, that's fine BUT to insist that it is through this analogies and metaphors full of archaic terms that one gets the "true" understanding, that is just plain silly.

[Frost]

It may surpise you that I don't have any issues per say with archaic language and the TCMA "poems".
What I have issue with is when anyone takes them outside of the realm that were developed for and that is tradition.
ANYTHING we do can and IS explainable via physics as it relates to biomechanics, anything and everything we do.
While not everyone can explain in in such manners because of lack of knowledge and education in the subject and they may resort to analogies and metaphors, that's fine BUT to insist that it is through this analogies and metaphors full of archaic terms that one gets the "true" understanding, that is just plain silly.

i know just pulling your leg :)

[Hendrik]

Yeah, because that's been working great so far, LOL !

Drop the archaic nonsense and use correct and current terms of biomechanics.


Ok. Why don't you explain to us what is the WCK inch power and how to do it in biomechanics term your way if you don't like the wing Chun classical ?

[LoneTiger108]

ANYTHING we do can and IS explainable via physics as it relates to biomechanics, anything and everything we do.

Okay, so for the benefit of scientific/biomechanic research, which term would you use for 6 bows? Taking into account this is a direct reference to the 6 joints of the body: shoulder, elbow, wrist, hip, knee, ankle. This is the beginning of understanding leverage and momentum of the body, not to mention the vast amount of changes that happen to each joint/bow whenever we move an inch ;)

[Hendrik]

Okay, so for the benefit of scientific/biomechanic research, which term would you use for 6 bows? Taking into account this is a direct reference to the 6 joints of the body: shoulder, elbow, wrist, hip, knee, ankle. This is the beginning of understanding leverage and momentum of the body, not to mention the vast amount of changes that happen to each joint/bow whenever we move an inch ;)

Even more important the six bows will shows a tangible and clear way on how to handling the issue via the handling and condition of everyone of them.

Unless one can clearly describe the six bows condition and handling one doesn't have clear and full handling.

[LoneTiger108]

Even more important the six bows will shows a tangible and clear way on how to handling the issue via the handling and condition of everyone of them.

Unless one can clearly describe the six bows condition and handling one doesn't have clear and full handling.


But I'm right that the 6 Bows you mention are linked to the joints, right?

If so, this is only part of what you would need for a full understanding of the older archaic terms imho.

[Hendrik]

But I'm right that the 6 Bows you mention are linked to the joints, right?

If so, this is only part of what you would need for a full understanding of the older archaic terms imho.

Sure. Bow are those joints.


This is part of the big picture.

The bow is the joints. The other part is the qi medirians which is the muscle, sinew , and how to increase the flow.

Bow is crane structure. Qi medirians is snake reel.

Jin as the definition means the change of strength or force vector. Is develop via the bow and qi medirians handling. These are the engine. The crane and snake.



The last component is the use of visualization to manage the crane and snake.

the intention or yee, crane bow/structure, and snake reel / pully belt are the three element of slt Jin development.


Thus, nim lik is not edequate to describe the WCK slt Jin. One needs the tree elements to bring visualization to the physical world.

Mind and body is one , with the three elements.


There is no mysterious but totally engineering. One just need to understand the ancient Chinese mind set. And I purposely use the Chinese term so that one can see these across WCK lineage.

And of cause once one know what it is one can called it anything. I once told Jim rosalendor . I careless if you called it Boston red lobster instead of crane bow. Who cares? I don't. But one got to know and attain what the ancestor is talking about. Not inventing things and claim what it s not.



People have a tendency of attack what they don't know. Such as the term and the lineage . But that is off target. One needs to find out what is going on before reacting blindly.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ok. Why don't you explain to us what is the WCK inch power and how to do it in biomechanics term your way if you don't like the wing Chun classical ?

AGAIN?
How many times have we gone over this Hendrick?
I've lost count.
Inch power is simply the term used by southern systems to describe "kinetic energy" transferred from point A to point B ( either by a strike or any other movement by the way), in other systems it has different names ( kime in Karate for example), via the application of impulse power rather than momentum to deliver force.
While it can be trained and developed in different ways in different systems, it is expressed in virtually the same way regardless of development ( A striking system well express it the same way compared to another striking system and a grappling one the same compared to another grappling system).
It's about using whole body unity and structure to deliver a (strike in this case) over the shortest possible distance, using a combination of muscular tension and relaxation.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Your body is NOT a BO nor does it have a bow, your body does NOT have a snake engine or crane engine or any other engine other than a HUMAN one and using terms like is just pure pointlessness.

Let me put it to you this way:
Show me ONE EXAMPLE of PRACTICAL WC inch power that is DIFFERENT than ANY OTHER expression of inch power.

[JPinAZ]

AGAIN?
How many times have we gone over this Hendrick?
I've lost count.
Inch power is simply the term used by southern systems to describe "kinetic energy" transferred from point A to point B ( either by a strike or any other movement by the way), in other systems it has different names ( kime in Karate for example), via the application of impulse power rather than momentum to deliver force.
While it can be trained and developed in different ways in different systems, it is expressed in virtually the same way regardless of development ( A striking system well express it the same way compared to another striking system and a grappling one the same compared to another grappling system).
It's about using whole body unity and structure to deliver a (strike in this case) over the shortest possible distance, using a combination of muscular tension and relaxation.

Now that's a simple, direct and accurate explanation! Well done :)

[JPinAZ]

Your body is NOT a BO nor does it have a bow, your body does NOT have a snake engine or crane engine or any other engine other than a HUMAN one and using terms like is just pure pointlessness.

Let me put it to you this way:
Show me ONE EXAMPLE of PRACTICAL WC inch power that is DIFFERENT than ANY OTHER expression of inch power.

I think the larger difference would be in developmental approaches. I hear what you're saying here, but I also think there are different ways of utilizing 'inch power' and how it can be expressed to differing degrees besides just how it is developed..
From what I've seen, SPM will use different body mechanics than WCK will (more bowed back and muscle groups vs. the strutured alignment type of inch power WCK may use). Also, if you look at how Bruce Lee demonstrates 'inch power' in the old black and white clips, it is a lot different than how I understand and express WCK inch power.

But really all of this is for naught, because IMO what's really important is being able to set up and apply this type of energy in a real word application. If someone can't do that, it's all just talk and theory ;)

[MOSHE]

Your body is NOT a BO nor does it have a bow, your body does NOT have a snake engine or crane engine or any other engine other than a HUMAN one and using terms like is just pure pointlessness.

Let me put it to you this way:
Show me ONE EXAMPLE of PRACTICAL WC inch power that is DIFFERENT than ANY OTHER expression of inch power.

my clip,,,

[sanjuro_ronin]

my clip,,,

Practical does NOT equal a board break.
Its a good clip dude, not taking anything away from that.
The practical application of inch power = a combative clip.

[k gledhill]

Practical does NOT equal a board break.
Its a good clip dude, not taking anything away from that.
The practical application of inch power = a combative clip.


@ 12 sec a short po pai to keep a guy going into your next attack ...short force.
@ 14 sec.... showing that hand chasing is not good, so we use jum to intercept and strike using the short force without retraction. Imagine Moshes punch to board to nose, jaw, throat, etc...and that's sitting down ;)

http://youtu.be/cHYtHyEx7Go

[MOSHE]

Practical does NOT equal a board break.
Its a good clip dude, not taking anything away from that.
The practical application of inch power = a combative clip.

thats why i did it when seating , reading this thread i wanted to illustrate that if in this case my fore arm is free from my body when it expressed this movement
it should be easy to understand that it can be done the same way in combat at any time and any direction

look the small clips when hitting the dummy ,its the same way

all the descriptions and clips are showing a full participation of all the body implying in fact that when doing contact with someone the rest of the body is under a non productive contraction = dead showing the way to your opponent to counter attack

[Hendrik]

this

start 1.35

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLC2fgYxdjw

and this


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4hmQaSVIDk


are not the same.

different type of power different type of methods.


take a look at how the six bow are handle. are they the same?

sifu Lui's clip above also shows once it is wing chun it is wing chun, one no need to set up for special inch power. wing chun is default to wing chun inch power the wing chun way.

[jesper]

spencer are you by any chance familiar with this organisation http://www.thearma.org/pdf/JoachimMeyer.htm

eh why the hell did it end up here. was supposed to be in draw blade thread ???

[sanjuro_ronin]

this

start 1.35

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLC2fgYxdjw

and this


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4hmQaSVIDk


are not the same.

different type of power different type of methods.


take a look at how the six bow are handle. are they the same?

sifu Lui's clip above also shows once it is wing chun it is wing chun, one no need to set up for special inch power. wing chun is default to wing chun inch power the wing chun way.

Neither are showing anything practical, just drills.
But you are right that they are not the same, at least the pak mei guy is actually HITTING his partner hard enough ( albeit in a very in-practical way).

[sanjuro_ronin]

@ 12 sec a short po pai to keep a guy going into your next attack ...short force.
@ 14 sec.... showing that hand chasing is not good, so we use jum to intercept and strike using the short force without retraction. Imagine Moshes punch to board to nose, jaw, throat, etc...and that's sitting down ;)

http://youtu.be/cHYtHyEx7Go

Drills Kevin but at least Sifu Bayer is making some contact.
And breaking a board is NOT the same and never will be thew same as hitting an opponent, you guys KNOW this.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Look at the fist KO:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5v0vl6iTlC4

This is how boxing express short power off the rear hand.

Look at number 8 and how it starts:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEkZWxJ9OLY&feature=related

[k gledhill]

Drills Kevin but at least Sifu Bayer is making some contact.
And breaking a board is NOT the same and never will be thew same as hitting an opponent, you guys KNOW this.

breaking a board is simply proving force capable, the rest is drilling for distance maintenance, balance, etc...iow its a board attached to a moving platform, a jaw, a nose, etc... not rocket science, no need for a slide rule and pipe over this one :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

breaking a board is simply proving force capable, the rest is drilling for distance maintenance, balance, etc...iow its a board attached to a moving platform, a jaw, a nose, etc... not rocket science, no need for a slide rule and pipe over this one :D

The "rest" just happens to be the most crucial part, LOL !

[Hendrik]

Neither are showing anything practical, just drills.
But you are right that they are not the same, at least the pak mei guy is actually HITTING his partner hard enough ( albeit in a very in-practical way).


The pak mei guy is using a body type mechanics
and Sifu Lui is using a line type of mechanics.

take a look at sifu Lui hitting the wall bag. I dont think the pak mei guy is Hitting harder then sifu Lui. certainly the Pak mei type of punch has a different penetration then sifu Lui.

I dont want to take a punch from sifu Lui because that is the line type penetration not the body type where one throw one's body to the target.

sure body type can be powerfull too but it is a totally different deal.

that body guard in the Pak Mei clip will never be able to guard against sifu Lui's wall bag punch's penetration into the opponents' body and cause injury.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The pak mei guy is using a body type mechanics
and Sifu Lui is using a line type of mechanics.

take a look at sifu Lui hitting the wall bag. I dont think the pak mei guy is Hitting harder then sifu Lui. certainly the Pak mei type of punch has a different penetration then sifu Lui.

I dont want to take a punch from sifu Lui because that is the line type penetration not the body type where one throw one's body to the target. sure body type can be powerfull too but it is a totally different deal.

Have you seen Sifu Lui hit an opponent with it?
You keep sayingits a different deal and no one is disagreeing with you in that regard, as I said before, different systems drill it and develop it differently.
BUT when it comes to using it and expressing it when it counts (hitting another human being that is hitting you back), it all looks the same in the end.

[Hendrik]

Look at the fist KO:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5v0vl6iTlC4

This is how boxing express short power off the rear hand.



That is not a short power. that is a full force body type punch.

[k gledhill]

The "rest" just happens to be the most crucial part, LOL !

exactly....we train to deliver a punch not chase hands ;) Our approach is based on delivering a 'line of force' .

[sanjuro_ronin]

That is not a short power. that is a full force body type punch.

And what do you think short power is? an ARM punch?
You are NOT gonna find "arm extended" striking in a real fight, not by the guy stil standing anyways.
Lets see how effect your short power arm punch is with boxing gloves.

[Hendrik]

Have you seen Sifu Lui hit an opponent with it?

You keep sayingits a different deal and no one is disagreeing with you in that regard, as I said before, different systems drill it and develop it differently.

BUT when it comes to using it and expressing it when it counts (hitting another human being that is hitting you back), it all looks the same in the end.




1. take a look at the part of the clip which sifu hit the walk bag with full force no pull back.

that type of strike,
even with the bak mei opponent wearing body guard. it is going to be penetrated and cause injury.



2. sure.
different systems has different mechanics develop it differently and the result is different. unless the mechanics are clear we really dont know exactly what it is.


3. my view is on how deep the penetration. what magnitude the power can be, how fast is the acceleration.

similar to compare different type of weapon, a spear strike, a cross bow , a short gun. that is the main key.

whether the target hit back or not that is not going to change the characteristics of these weapons.

[Hendrik]

And what do you think short power is? an ARM punch?
You are NOT gonna find "arm extended" striking in a real fight, not by the guy stil standing anyways.
Lets see how effect your short power arm punch is with boxing gloves.



TCMA short power define as power generated with small body parts displacement. got nothing todo with ARM punch.

so, that a look at the clip you post, it is practically throwing the whole body with a large displacement. that doesnt fit the TCMA short power definition.


not saying it is not power full but it is a different type of mechanics..

[Hendrik]

body type of power generation and line type of power generation are using the joints differently.

The line type power generation refer the joints as bow because they use the bow to shoot and absorve force vectors.

While the body type power generation use joints in a different way instead as a 'bow spring."


so, the term "bow" use in the TCMA line type power generation mechanics is a proper term to refer to a certain thing.

[Robinhood]

I don't see it in Lui, it looks like just arm hit without proper body structure to support punch, I see many other things that are wrong that will make him even not even deliver any penetrating power, actually his punch is more of an arm push.

I would not count that as proper inch power.

Its not there in Lui.

Cheers

[Hendrik]

I don't see it in Lui, it looks like just arm hit without proper body structure to support punch, I see many other things that are wrong that will make him even not even deliver any penetrating power, actually his punch is more of an arm push.

I would not count that as proper inch power.

Its not there in Lui.

Cheers

Ok.

Pick a YouTube which you think it shows your ideas.

[Vajramusti]

Have you seen Sifu Lui hit an opponent with it?
You keep sayingits a different deal and no one is disagreeing with you in that regard, as I said before, different systems drill it and develop it differently.
BUT when it comes to using it and expressing it when it counts (hitting another human being that is hitting you back), it all looks the same in the end.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sanjuro-I have seen pictures of Lui Ming Fai in contests.And I have met him.He has short power and he can hit hard.
Some time ago on this forum there were a couple of pics of him in matches.

joy chaudhuri

[Hendrik]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sanjuro-I have seen pictures of Lui Ming Fai in contests.And I have met him.He has short power and he can hit hard.
Some time ago on this forum there were a couple of pics of him in matches.

joy chaudhuri

his power shown in that wall bag clip when he is not holding back. that type of power if hit that interviewer, it will be big damage. so, Lui is not using any power when he was playing with the interviewer. that is forsure. if he wants to strike real he just drop the weight similar to drop into the wall back. but he didnt for these friendly interview. he is just pushing and stop not striking.

[Hendrik]

for those who still doesnt get what I am saying the body type and line type.

body type is analogy to swinging a hammer and hit something.
line type is analogy to a load cross bow shooting out.

both can do big damage but different mechanics and different charateristics.


WCK is not an art for swinging big hammer similar to CLF.
WCK is a cros bow art, and the SLT set is the evidence of that.

The issue is most people today is thinking jerking a hammer hit is short power. without knowing jerking a hammer hit is still hammer hit. not a cross bow. eventhough that jerk looks might look like as shoot.


Bruce Lee's inch punch demo is spear push not a cross bow short.

line type cross bow short has a force line recoil or compress back into the bows support by the ground at the instant of the contact or penetration. yes. at release or issue or fajin it is actually compress the bow. not releasing the bow. this is counter intuitive. thus many does not get it. thus, it is actually implode instead of of like the body type which is extended and explode.

body type hit has a body push or extended out from the ground and then after some delay hit the target.



take a look at sifu Liu, when he hit the wall bag. he issue that implode. but all other time he just extend his hand to push. Lui just have to release at the contact, and that release is called " short power" or inch power or inch jin. because it doesnt travel as the body type where pushing from the ground up and .... after some delay hit the target. but get it instantly via the force vector. thus, it is said, others travel the bow path I travel the string of the bow. travel the bow path means body type.


So, when reading a person one sees if there is that implode if yes that means he has it but not showing. most inch punch demo like the three demo in the begining of this thread does not have the implode. that is the body type. not saying that is not powerfull but different mechanics.


4.12 to 4.20 is a basic line type release drill or compressing the major bows.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NI0i5eulDUc

[Vajramusti]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NI0i5eulDUc[/url]
-------------------------------------------

Good observation and distinction.

joy chaudhuri

[Hendrik]

-------------------------------------------

Good observation and distinction.

joy chaudhuri


always need to know your opponent.

[Hendrik]

i am happy to see this today.


Jeet Kune Do Techniques Mistake #9: Wrong Power Source

The power of your jeet kune do moves should come from your rear leg, not from your arms. “You channel the power from your back leg through your body and into your punch,” Ted Wong says.


this is exactly body type of power generation of Bruce Lee. that is not WCK inch power type

[GlennR]

i am happy to see this today.


Jeet Kune Do Techniques Mistake #9: Wrong Power Source

The power of your jeet kune do moves should come from your rear leg, not from your arms. “You channel the power from your back leg through your body and into your punch,” Ted Wong says.


this is exactly body type of power generation of Bruce Lee. that is not WCK inch power type

And this is?????

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NCLIjWhCTU&feature=endscreen&NR=1

[sanjuro_ronin]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sanjuro-I have seen pictures of Lui Ming Fai in contests.And I have met him.He has short power and he can hit hard.
Some time ago on this forum there were a couple of pics of him in matches.

joy chaudhuri

Oh I don't doubt it.
My point, the one I keep repeating and keeps getting ignored it seems is that NONE of those demos SHOWS the practical application of inch power in a fight.
And the clips that do show "inch power" ( since we are using that term) are NOT from WC.
Of course the argument is that, since those clips aren't from WC that they aren't "WC inch power", to which I reply as usual: Show me a practical example of WC inch power.
To which I am shown demo clips, drill clips and breaking clips.
Do you see what I am saying here my friend or is it me?

[Frost]

Oh I don't doubt it.
My point, the one I keep repeating and keeps getting ignored it seems is that NONE of those demos SHOWS the practical application of inch power in a fight.
And the clips that do show "inch power" ( since we are using that term) are NOT from WC.
Of course the argument is that, since those clips aren't from WC that they aren't "WC inch power", to which I reply as usual: Show me a practical example of WC inch power.
To which I am shown demo clips, drill clips and breaking clips.
Do you see what I am saying here my friend or is it me?

its you................:D

[Hendrik]

And this is?????

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NCLIjWhCTU&feature=endscreen&NR=1


An idea line type demo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6X8b-DO_UhI

http://youtu.be/w0IytSgC2Jc

[sanjuro_ronin]

its you................:D

Probably and based on this:

An idea line type demo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6X8b-DO_UhI

http://youtu.be/w0IytSgC2Jc

I bow out of this "conversation".
:(

[Hendrik]

Jeet Kune Do Techniques Mistake #1: Wrong Origins

Not all aspects of JKD punching stem from wing chun kung fu, Ted Wong says. “Much of the JKD being taught today is based on wing chun structures. I have a lot of respect for wing chun, but it’s not JKD. In fact, the majority of Bruce Lee’s notes in Tao of Jeet Kune Do are from boxing and fencing.

Learn how the boxing techniques of Muhammad Ali and Joe Louis influenced Bruce Lee’s development of jeet kune do techniques in this FREE Guide — Bruce Lee Training Research: How Boxing Influenced His Jeet Kune Do .

[Robinhood]

And this is?????

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NCLIjWhCTU&feature=endscreen&NR=1

Yes, to me that is more like the one inch punch !.


Cheers

[Robinhood]

Here, there are some good one inch punches in this clip..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7_dzu4TQDs


Cheers

[Frost]

Probably and based on this:


I bow out of this "conversation".
:(
thank god i thought i was the only one to see that and go :confused: followed by :o and finished off with :eek:

[Frost]

Here, there are some good one inch punches in this clip..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7_dzu4TQDs


Cheers

and yet when they actually spar and hit it looks like this, similar to MMA and no one inch punches in sight strange that. although to be fair a nice short range kick at 1.55, and a lovely short range punch knockdown at 1.59
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbEGgZ86Ci0&feature=watch_response

[lance]

Is it for real?
Is it part of Wing Chun?
Thoughts?
http://www.wingchuntaoist.com/2012/04/one-inch-punch-in-wing-chun.html

! Yeah ! it is for real but you have to develop the power to do those things , it does ' nt come easy , body mechanics and stances , and the last but not least the power to make it happen . The sifu who demo that punch on youtube spent alot of time perfecting the technique so that ' s why he could do it .

Practice on the sil lum tao form very slowely like you ' re doing chi kung and breath normally , then practice on those bean bags that they sell in a martial stores . Condition your fists on the bean bag , when you hit the bean bag it becomes hard and that ' s how you can condition your fist and be able to achieve that one inch punching technique . As times goes by for you try and hit a piece of wood , and see the results . And from there you decide what you really need to do . And if you people don ' t believe me then find your own way of achieving that 1 inch punching technique .

[MOSHE]

Here, there are some good one inch punches in this clip..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7_dzu4TQDs


Cheers

inch punch in wing chun should allow you to develop a strength able to enter deep in the body that you are hitting

what ,we are seeing in this clip ,its a guy hitting the weakest points of a body ,and nobody could stand it

plus regarding the posture of his arm ,he cannot develop such strength,its just with the weight of his arm that he is hitting

a clip more to impress than technique

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=MOSHE;1169285]inch punch in wing chun should allow you to develop a strength able to enter deep in the body that you are hitting

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That is true. There are different approaches to the punch. Varies with style, concepts,purposes and mechanics.

joy