When Did Chi Sao Start? [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

Happy Tiger

04-29-2012, 09:22 PM

Someone correct me if I am wrong but I heard that Yip Man and Yuen Kay developed the poon sau platform.

Also, there are several other arts which have sensitivity training, Hsing Yi, Bagua, Tai Chi and perhaps Praying Mantis as well as several FMA and IMA's.

When I first started Wing Chun I was under the impression that Chi Sau was unique to Wing Chun but was mistaken.
Wow. I knew those arts had sensitivity drills and passes but didn't realise they had open ended exchange such the likes of Chi sao. So chi sao really is that recent. Thanks for the replies.

LoneTiger108

04-30-2012, 04:12 AM

When was chi sao introduced \invented?

If you are talking of the term Chisau and the stuff we see today, I believe it was first introduced by Ip Man after working with numerous elders. So it's invention would be during his HK years.

Did VT come out of the temple already equipped with this unique tool, or was it added\developed later?

Chinese Martial Arts has always had interactive platforms, so I reckon it has been there for a time before Shaolin actually. Different interactive exercises produce different results, have different purposes, and Ip Man may have only 're-discovered' what was already there.

Is there any story behind that?In it's day it must have been revolutionary.

I have heard numerous 'stories' as have all of us lol!! Nothing can be proven (they say) but I tend to look at the Red Boat because this is where the interactive nature of Wing Chun went through a massive development phase because the performances always needed to be fresh and new and the Martial Arts more realistic and entertaining. Hence, the choreography was more refined.

Depending on your 'belief' but IF Wing Chun and her husband existed, it seems more probable that they themselves must have had the time to develop this sort of interactive platform too. Or maybe the stories are highlighting the nature of Man & Woman, Yin and Yang influences on the Martial Arts of the time?

Tai chi is the only other art I know of that might have been rubbing elbows with the VT gang as an influence with it's tui sao. Is this an inspiration for chi sao?

Possibly. It's all about 'purpose' at the end of the day. To enable a fusion of two people to cultivate energies and exchange their strengths was possibly the reason for this sort of practise. But as a tool to try-out and experiment with the variety of actual combat?? This seems to be more of a Wing Chun thing.

What will really get your boat is that Chisau is a term for a specific purpose, as is Looksau or Poonsau etc. We have been eager to lump all our interactive exercises into this 'Chisau' mould, but in all honesty I don't believe for one second that Ip Man didn't have a plan in mind to develop this stuff further. It's just that he was taken from us all before this could happen...

Happy Tiger

04-30-2012, 06:57 AM

If you are talking of the term Chisau and the stuff we see today, I believe it was first introduced by Ip Man after working with numerous elders. So it's invention would be during his HK years.

Chinese Martial Arts has always had interactive platforms, so I reckon it has been there for a time before Shaolin actually. Different interactive exercises produce different results, have different purposes, and Ip Man may have only 're-discovered' what was already there.

I have heard numerous 'stories' as have all of us lol!! Nothing can be proven (they say) but I tend to look at the Red Boat because this is where the interactive nature of Wing Chun went through a massive development phase because the performances always needed to be fresh and new and the Martial Arts more realistic and entertaining. Hence, the choreography was more refined.

Depending on your 'belief' but IF Wing Chun and her husband existed, it seems more probable that they themselves must have had the time to develop this sort of interactive platform too. Or maybe the stories are highlighting the nature of Man & Woman, Yin and Yang influences on the Martial Arts of the time?

Possibly. It's all about 'purpose' at the end of the day. To enable a fusion of two people to cultivate energies and exchange their strengths was possibly the reason for this sort of practise. But as a tool to try-out and experiment with the variety of actual combat?? This seems to be more of a Wing Chun thing.

What will really get your boat is that Chisau is a term for a specific purpose, as is Looksau or Poonsau etc. We have been eager to lump all our interactive exercises into this 'Chisau' mould, but in all honesty I don't believe for one second that Ip Man didn't have a plan in mind to develop this stuff further. It's just that he was taken from us all before this could happen...
Nice response! The level of interaction potential in VT chi sao is huge compared to other types of sensitivity drills and sets, many of which are subsets to our chi sao. The bridge between pure live 'anything goes' sparring and sensitivity training is amazing. I guess knowing what you want out of a chi sao session helps alot. What I love is the free will 'interdependancy' of chi sao. I also like what it tells about a houses feel, it's aproach to VT and it's root.It is a very nice merging of our principles and methods. I like what you said about it still being a work in progress in GM Ip Mans time...and I suppose it still is today....Man, I love VT:) Thanks again for the informative post. >bows deeply<

LoneTiger108

04-30-2012, 08:58 AM

....Man, I love VT:) Thanks again for the informative post. >bows deeply<

You're very welcome. And I didn't offend you with any condescending tones?!! :)

Happy Tiger

04-30-2012, 09:14 AM

You're very welcome. And I didn't offend you with any condescending tones?!! :)
Nope, I'm just a student. Besides, where would this forum be without condescending tones?;)

Vajramusti

04-30-2012, 10:54 AM

My guess is that chi sao came from tai chi as a more linear approach and more focus on striking than uprooting but who knows.....
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I don't think so. Beware of pseudo history.Ip Man did much for the development of wing chun chi sao
and different kinds of chi sao,
but the idea of manipulating contact is as old as the hills. Leung Jan also had his approach to chi sao.
So did Chan Wah Sun.

joy chaudhuri

Happy Tiger

04-30-2012, 12:12 PM

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I don't think so. Beware of pseudo history.Ip Man did much for the development of wing chun chi sao
and different kinds of chi sao,
but the idea of manipulating contact is as old as the hills. Leung Jan also had his approach to chi sao.
So did Chan Wah Sun.

joy chaudhuri
So what would have been the approach to these proto chi sao expressions? Where did the inclusion of drawing feinting, stalling, half beat,broken beat.jamming, jao sao risk come to be? Sensitivity platforms have been around and are common. Hapkido also has flow drills and lock flow sensitivity exchange but not like VT.

Vajramusti

04-30-2012, 12:24 PM

So what would have been the approach to these proto chi sao expressions? Where did the inclusion of drawing feinting, stalling, half beat,broken beat.jamming, jao sao risk come to be? Sensitivity platforms have been around and are common. Hapkido also has flow drills and lock flow sensitivity exchange but not like VT.
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Rather than bong. tan.fook- more circling around the bridge clock wise and anti clockwise.
Also see some gu lo wing chun.

No comment on Hapkido- because of lack of interest.Perhaps someone else can comment.

joy chaudhuri

Happy Tiger

04-30-2012, 01:09 PM

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No comment on Hapkido- because of lack of interest.Perhaps someone else can comment.

joy chaudhuri
ouch! :) that's too bad. Well, you can't be interested in every thing.:)

Happy Tiger

04-30-2012, 01:13 PM

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Also see some gu lo wing chun.

joy chaudhuri
interesting

Yoshiyahu

04-30-2012, 01:23 PM

Happy Tiger

04-30-2012, 01:34 PM

White Crane lineage have chi sau drills as well as Praying mantis and some eagle claw lineages.

Basically chi sau is bridge that teaches you in a non-threathen way how to utilize the techniques before gradutating to sparring.

It develops sensitivity in techniques so that you can feel with your hands oppose to seeing with your eyes...Most close range styles will have some form of chi sau to develop your tools you grasp from the forms and drills.
thank you Yoshiyahu. As you point out, those are 'drills' as I also mentioned. They, although alowing some freestyle, are predominantly prearanged organized subsets,Like Lop Sao/ Bong Sao say.If there are VT type sensitivity/ exchange methods in these other arts, I'm looking for examples on the Tube. Please tune me in if you know of any. VT chi sao has a basically open ended format that alows for another level of humanity, instinct, nowness and X factor in the mix. I guess this is the dimension I'm interested in most. I'ts like a life form that just jumped from one level of awareness to another. It is this jump I am geeking out over.
I Kuen, Tai Gik and Ving Tsun are the most advanced in this I've experienced but I ain't experienced much

wolf3001

04-30-2012, 11:58 PM

I don't know who came up with it but I was looking into some Yuen Kay San Wing Chun and from what I have heard Yip Man learned Chi Sau here while living with the family. Yuen Kay San didn't really want to show him from what I understand.

kuniggety

05-01-2012, 12:08 AM

They, although alowing some freestyle, are predominantly prearanged organized subsets,Like Lop Sao/ Bong Sao say.If there are VT type sensitivity/ exchange methods in these other arts, I'm looking for examples on the Tube. Please tune me in if you know of any. VT chi sao has a basically open ended format that alows for another level of humanity, instinct, nowness and X factor in the mix.

We use chi sao in my Northern Praying Mantis school and we had a sitting chi sao like exercise that we did while sitting when I was studying Aikikai Aikido. Both schools have used open ended chi sao, not "drills". Drills do exist, I've done them in Mantis, but we also do open ended chi sao where you have free reign to act as you feel (although we keep a stipulation not to hit people in the face). And then as I said, aside from the sitting part and staying connected, the we did chi sao in aikido too (it just had a different name). Sensitivity training is important in martial arts training and wing chun isn't the only one that has it.

Happy Tiger

05-01-2012, 03:58 AM

We use chi sao in my Northern Praying Mantis school and we had a sitting chi sao like exercise that we did while sitting when I was studying Aikikai Aikido. Both schools have used open ended chi sao, not "drills". Drills do exist, I've done them in Mantis, but we also do open ended chi sao where you have free reign to act as you feel (although we keep a stipulation not to hit people in the face). And then as I said, aside from the sitting part and staying connected, the we did chi sao in aikido too (it just had a different name). Sensitivity training is important in martial arts training and wing chun isn't the only one that has it.
Thanks for your reply. Are there any clips on Youtube demoing these open ended platforms?

Happy Tiger

05-01-2012, 04:35 AM

LoneTiger108

05-01-2012, 06:05 AM

VT chi sao has a basically open ended format that alows for another level of humanity, instinct, nowness and X factor in the mix. I guess this is the dimension I'm interested in most. I'ts like a life form that just jumped from one level of awareness to another. It is this jump I am geeking out over.

Personally, I think this 'jump' you are mentioning is with your language. This 'another level of humanity' too is best described as Sansau! NOT Chisau! Just my opinion, because I am a stickler for the language because it all MEANS something.

Once your 'interactive training' develops to the stage that it has no fixed pattern and both sides are comfortable exchanging with random methods/techniques it becomes akin to free-sparring ie. sansau/sanda and this is why, if you were to talk about language, that Chisau is NOT free sparring it's the precursor exercise drill because Sansau is the sparring ;) Now some families use the term Gorsau too, but even this means something different to free-sparring. Free sparring attaches and detaches, there can be long periods with no contact. Gorsau has constant contact while moving over and through the bridges at all times.

So, it throws up questions like, so what is Looksau or Poonsau for exactly? What is Chisau for exactly?? And in all honesty, if your Sifu doesn't know the differences or has no interest in the language because of whatever reason, I personally would try my hardest to find someone that does! Even if that is ploughing through forums to find the conversations that point you in the right direction!!! :)

I definitely would not be looking at other styles for the answers, because it's a Wing Chun specific thing. Our language is tailored to our system and it was done so others wouldn't know what we were yapping about or shouting about during fights lol!! And FME I find difficulty communicating this stuff to fellow Wing Chun dudes because the language has never been thought about.

The analogy I use is 'the hands follow the mind so if the mind does not know it's purpose what do expect of the hands?' The minds purpose is given with the language you use to teach.

My rambling opinion as ever! And remember, I am a student too!!! :cool:

Vajramusti

05-01-2012, 06:34 AM

kuniggety

05-01-2012, 09:41 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYzKzABrt38
This is interesting. Would you say this is typical of chi sao in Mantis kung fu?How much time do you guys spend doing these kinds of exchange?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nW2Y8XFFbZw&feature=related
Although this is a Hapkido school, we didn't do this kinda thing in the 70's . Still, nice to see VT influencing sensitivity training in other arts

The first video is actually of a Southern Praying Mantis version. Funnily enough, Northern and Southern Praying Mantis are completely unrelated. I think the second video from the Hapkido school demonstrated a little better how we do chi sao. My school is a mixture of Seven Star and Taiji Praying Mantis and I'm not sure which line our chi sao decends from, if it's not prevalent in all of Northern Praying Mantis. It's an essential part of the training. Praying Mantis is about striking and grappling in a close range so chi sao is a great way to get a feel of an opponent in a relatively controlled way. Most of my mantis studies is private instruction and I only do it so much with him because IMO you only learn so much from it by doing it with the same person over and over. I think in the regular classes they do it extremely often. Back to aikido, we practiced our version of sticky hands in every class. It was something you had to show a basic grasp of for the very first belt test (since them Japanese styles like to use belts).

Happy Tiger

05-03-2012, 09:38 AM

Personally, I think this 'jump' you are mentioning is with your language. This 'another level of humanity' too is best described as Sansau! NOT Chisau! Just my opinion, because I am a stickler for the language because it all MEANS something.

Once your 'interactive training' develops to the stage that it has no fixed pattern and both sides are comfortable exchanging with random methods/techniques it becomes akin to free-sparring ie. sansau/sanda and this is why, if you were to talk about language, that Chisau is NOT free sparring it's the precursor exercise drill because Sansau is the sparring ;) Now some families use the term Gorsau too, but even this means something different to free-sparring. Free sparring attaches and detaches, there can be long periods with no contact. Gorsau has constant contact while moving over and through the bridges at all times.

So, it throws up questions like, so what is Looksau or Poonsau for exactly? What is Chisau for exactly?? And in all honesty, if your Sifu doesn't know the differences or has no interest in the language because of whatever reason, I personally would try my hardest to find someone that does! Even if that is ploughing through forums to find the conversations that point you in the right direction!!! :)

I definitely would not be looking at other styles for the answers, because it's a Wing Chun specific thing. Our language is tailored to our system and it was done so others wouldn't know what we were yapping about or shouting about during fights lol!! And FME I find difficulty communicating this stuff to fellow Wing Chun dudes because the language has never been thought about.

The analogy I use is 'the hands follow the mind so if the mind does not know it's purpose what do expect of the hands?' The minds purpose is given with the language you use to teach.

My rambling opinion as ever! And remember, I am a student too!!! :cool:
Well, that's why I don't always use traditional terms (though I know what they mean and are) for just the point you make. Different houses have different assignments to these terms. Gor sau, hows' about Kiu sau for that? Or is it San sau/Kiu Sau?Poon Sau or is it Don Sau?Jip Sau or Phon Sau?
Chi Sau is often reffered to as a "laboratory" of all things VT.(master Chu Sau Lei) which in it self brings it far over mere sensitivity training or drills. I originally was hoping for some kind of time line for the development of this high priority training tool. How it came to prominance in our style. Was it always the multityred, sophisticated thing it is today?It sounds like it is fairly recent in these reguards. I appreciate all the great responses. If my posts are some times alittle...romantic towards VT it's just because I'm a fan. But not an armchair fan fer sher.

LoneTiger108

05-03-2012, 11:57 AM

Well, that's why I don't always use traditional terms (though I know what they mean and are) for just the point you make. Different houses have different assignments to these terms. Gor sau, hows' about Kiu sau for that? Or is it San sau/Kiu Sau?Poon Sau or is it Don Sau?Jip Sau or Phon Sau?

So you see what I mean?!

Have you actually been 'taught' the language in relation to exactly what it is? You say you know what they mean but this post suggests you may not or are you just throwing out questions?

This is where and how the more recent mainland promotions have the freedom to generate new interest. Because their language is present from the beginning, and they have confidence in using it to teach. Funny really, considering this is exactly how I learnt from the beginning yet I do not belong to one of the newer groups, I am simply a practitioner of Wing Chun.

It seems that us guys that like to study, and some that have been taught too, are resigned to sitting on the sidelines watching whilst many many people in the family leave and join other groups. I personally haven't got a problem with that, because all exposure to Wing Chun is fine with me. But how long will their interest last before it waivers again and is caught up with another 'new' marketing ploy?

Even if I were to tell you exactly when and how the modern Chisau platform was created, and by who, you wouldn't believe me and I doubt anyone else would either.

sanjuro_ronin

05-03-2012, 12:17 PM

No one will ever admit to who created it because no one wants the responsibility for that !
:D

Happy Tiger

05-03-2012, 03:51 PM

So you see what I mean?!

Have you actually been 'taught' the language in relation to exactly what it is? You say you know what they mean but this post suggests you may not or are you just throwing out questions?

This is where and how the more recent mainland promotions have the freedom to generate new interest. Because their language is present from the beginning, and they have confidence in using it to teach. Funny really, considering this is exactly how I learnt from the beginning yet I do not belong to one of the newer groups, I am simply a practitioner of Wing Chun.

It seems that us guys that like to study, and some that have been taught too, are resigned to sitting on the sidelines watching whilst many many people in the family leave and join other groups. I personally haven't got a problem with that, because all exposure to Wing Chun is fine with me. But how long will their interest last before it waivers again and is caught up with another 'new' marketing ploy?

Even if I were to tell you exactly when and how the modern Chisau platform was created, and by who, you wouldn't believe me and I doubt anyone else would either.
I would really like to hear your theory. I was 'taught' pretty much everything I know in VT. As a member of the VTAA (Dec.25,'98) luckily, I've had some good training pretty close to source. (Masters; Wong Shun Leung ,Li Man Kit: Tsui Sheung Tin, Simon Ng/Leo Lit: Leung Ting, Wood Nan.)Getting the english equivalent to terms like gwoh sao and such has been more the challenge rather than the other way around. I just like to hear every ones theories and stories and advice to further my knowledge if not wisdom. Even though I trust my sifus completely, knowledge is where you find it and I love to dig in just like most do here. I try not to pass judgement often and respect all. I appreciate your detailed honest answers, and un like some, you take questions more or less at face value and don't patronise or condecend too much :rolleyes:

LoneTiger108

05-04-2012, 08:18 AM

I would really like to hear your theory.

You may well be the first! :eek:

I was 'taught' pretty much everything I know in VT. As a member of the VTAA (Dec.25,'98) luckily, I've had some good training pretty close to source. (Masters; Wong Shun Leung ,Li Man Kit: Tsui Sheung Tin, Simon Ng/Leo Lit: Leung Ting, Wood Nan.)

That actually sounds like a headache, knowing that even the Canton dialect has so many variations. It is a rich history you have there though, but I would only ask the straight forward question: So who IS your Sifu? Who do you consider to be the most influential?

Some people have a special place in their hearts for their first teacher, and so will always name them. But others have had bad experiences, so would sometimes erase the memories by denying they learnt from such and such.

I feel incredibly lucky to have just the one Wing Chun Sifu, and although I will exchange with others and continue to learn outside from his observation, I guess he will forever be my only Sifu. His dialect is from the country though (New territories) so it's also hard to match with others sometimes.

And don't mention the romanization of the lingo either man!!!!! That's a Pandoras Box if ever there was one! :D

Happy Tiger

05-05-2012, 06:29 AM

You may well be the first! :eek:

That actually sounds like a headache, knowing that even the Canton dialect has so many variations. It is a rich history you have there though, but I would only ask the straight forward question: So who IS your Sifu? Who do you consider to be the most influential?

Some people have a special place in their hearts for their first teacher, and so will always name them. But others have had bad experiences, so would sometimes erase the memories by denying they learnt from such and such.

I feel incredibly lucky to have just the one Wing Chun Sifu, and although I will exchange with others and continue to learn outside from his observation, I guess he will forever be my only Sifu. His dialect is from the country though (New territories) so it's also hard to match with others sometimes.

And don't mention the romanization of the lingo either man!!!!! That's a Pandoras Box if ever there was one! :D
Sounds like you have a great sifu that you care about alot. >bows deeply<. Li Man Kit sifu is definitely my main teacher and biggest influence.A lesser known but no less talented VT master. He is a good teacher for me specifically, inspiring in many ways besides martial arts.All the sifu I've had the great privilage to learn from are unique and came into my life at just the right moment. Master Wood Nan is not only teacher but a personal friend of mine. His gentle soul and fierce fighting style is amazing .His habit of sharing VT with street people and other marginalized folk, to help start them on something worthwhile is a tradition I continue today.(the only 'teaching' I do at this point, at a community center downtown for free)
Masters Simon Ng and Leo Lit have radically altered my fundamental understanding of VT and their internal development is unbelievable. They are both gentle, hard working individuals that are also really inspiring.

lance

05-07-2012, 12:44 AM

When was chi sao introduced \invented? Did VT come out of the temple already equipped with this unique tool, or was it added\developed later? Is there any story behind that?In it's day it must have been revolutionary. Tai chi is the only other art I know of that might have been rubbing elbows with the VT gang as an influence with it's tui sao. Is this an inspiration for chi sao?

To me it all started with the wing chun art itself , because you ' re using the wing chun hand techniques to touch hands with a partner . The main idea is to feel the partners' moves as you are rolling with your partner as all of you on this thread know already . The trick comes when you ' re rolling with your partners' energy when the right timing comes either you or your partner will hit and trap the partner at the same time .

Tai Chi has their own version of sensitivity training , but when it comes for the tai chi man to to do sensitivity drills with the wing chun man then I ' m sure that
they ' ll adapt to eachothers' energy drills .

Vajramusti

05-07-2012, 05:44 AM

lance

05-10-2012, 11:17 PM

There are different kinds of chi sao but chi sao in one form or another is an integral part of wing chun.
Since chi sao is among other things a laboratory for working out concepts and principles, chi sao will vary with schools and lineages and their comparative understandings. Chi sao has also evolved over time..

joy chaudhuri

! Oh Yeah ! Joy , you would know that better than me , and I agree with you too .
You ' re a sifu under a very popular Sigung . Joy , how is your wing chun sigung Fong ? Is he okay ? How old is he now ? Just wanted to know , that ' s all .

Paul T England

05-11-2012, 12:48 AM

my thinking is;

The basis of Chi Sau probably goes back to Leung Jan and the generation after such as Chan Wah Soon and Leung Bik. My reasoning is that some of the mainland groups did have a primiative form of chi sau.

YKS and IM probably developed the Poon Sau platform and I would bet they got help from other wing chun people of thier generation.

IM kept developing chi sau as you can see the development especailyl with HK guys and WSL. The Foshan students of IM did not have Dan Chi, only Lap Sau, Poon Sau and Chi Sau. Some schools also have the bamboo dummy.

I think the early 1900s was a real developing stage for southern Chinese Martial Arts with places such as the Chin Wu Association springing up and the sharing of knowledge. I would bet that a spark for chi sau came from taiji push hands. Saying that, push hands and chi sau share many theories but are completely different animals.

Regards
Paul