Tendons, ligaments and Bone strengthening

[RenDaHai]

Hey Team,

I realise there may be some controversy as to the extent tendons and ligaments can be strengthened and bones made more dense. I am not interested in this argument at all. Possible or not is not the question.

What I would like to know is if your system of Kung Fu has any specific exercises for this? If so, what, should you be able to describe it, is the purported necessary component of the exercise? (I.e Dynamic tension, short range of motion exercises, vibration, intent etc.)

Just curiosity.

[David Jamieson]

Yes. In not only the system I practice, but in others, the idea of creating density and toughening is not lost.

Bone density is increased through vibration.
Tissue density is increased by courses of repeated isotonic and isometric work.

Tendon is muscle head and is strengthened by stressing it progressively over time.

Ligaments cannot be lengthened much and are as strong as they will ever be. What is important is that they are free to move fluidly.

Typically, the exercises to work on these are a combination of "hard" chi kung and simply working out with vigour. Weight training increases bone density and quite simply, any loading to the skeletal structure and muscular weave progressively over time will get these increases in strength and density.

[Dale Dugas]

Iron Palm, External Iron Body, Iron Arm, Iron Claw/Finger, can help to increase bone density as well as increase the ligaments and tendons within the physical structure being trained.

Stress put into a bone will help strengthen it, increase its mass/density, stress on muscle tissue causes it to grow.

The only issue I have with tendon and ligament training is to stretch is naturally within the range of motion of that limb.

[Yum Cha]

There is a type of training, the name escapes me, which is about loading the tendons and the muscles, the muscle with significant contraction and expansion, the tendon with just a minor amount. like connecting two stones with a rubber band. the rubber band stretches when you move one stone, then pulls the other stone along.

It's used amongst other things for training Basketball and Volleyball players to jump. An example would be doing squats with a medicine ball, but not stopping at the bottom, instead dropping, then springing up just an instant before you reach the bottom...

Thus, the tendons stretch, then recoil, as the muscles do their more significant effort.

Pak Mei trains using some similar techniques, and generally putting the added load is said to strengthen and increase the tendons due to this load. Not sure, never cut open a Pak Mei guy, yet, to check out the tendons.....

There is also a type of training that involves a slight shaking of the arms and hand, kind of like the visual of hard isometrics, but in a very relaxed manner, my mate calls it the Parkinsons Technique. What you are doing is bouncing your 'in and out' and bouncing your muscles and arm back and forth. just millimeters. Its about control, relaxation and reflex. I suspect that has some effect on the tendons too. I've seen similar in Tai Chi, something about sparrows maybe? Or is the Ma Jong?

[SPJ]

What I would like to know is if your system of Kung Fu has any specific exercises for this? If so, what, should you be able to describe it, is the purported necessary component of the exercise? (I.e Dynamic tension, short range of motion exercises, vibration, intent etc.)

Just curiosity.

1. Pai Da Gong. self striking and strike bag and pad etc.

2. Jin gong. skilled power practice.

in Ba Ji, we kao a lot with shoulder, chest, back, hip, forearm etc.

We kao the bag or cushion padded pole (zhuang)

Every thing in stages, or progressive or increased intensity or difficulty with time.

:cool:

[LivingArt]

It's important to note that diet and nutrition are more important than the exercises . You can do the exercises and routines until your blue in the face, but you wont be achieving anything if your body doesnt have the material to repair and rebuild itself.

I kick, punch, slap, elbow, and body check anything tougher than myself as hard as I can stand it.

[WingChunABQ]

I've often wondered about the Hung Gar Iron Wire form for training this sort of thing.

With a degree of emphasized tension, many hand techniques in the Wing Chun forms can also train the muscles to snap with a good amount of pressure.

As for Iron Palm, my sifu broke it down like this: hitting the IP bag creates micro-fissures in the bones which calcify over, increasing the amount of bone tissue which makes the bones more dense. It also slightly packs the marrow downwards towards the ends of the extremities. The body fills in the gaps with more marrow, likewise making the limb more dense.

I was highly skeptical of all this, so I ran the whole thing past an orthopedic surgeon that I know. He said all of that stuff would indeed work.

[Golden Arms]

I've often wondered about the Hung Gar Iron Wire form for training this sort of thing.

With a degree of emphasized tension, many hand techniques in the Wing Chun forms can also train the muscles to snap with a good amount of pressure.

As for Iron Palm, my sifu broke it down like this: hitting the IP bag creates micro-fissures in the bones which calcify over, increasing the amount of bone tissue which makes the bones more dense. It also slightly packs the marrow downwards towards the ends of the extremities. The body fills in the gaps with more marrow, likewise making the limb more dense.

I was highly skeptical of all this, so I ran the whole thing past an orthopedic surgeon that I know. He said all of that stuff would indeed work.

Skeptical of what portion of it and why? That is Wolff's law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolff%27s_law) at work right there. The body simply tries to adapt to what it is asked to do.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I've often wondered about the Hung Gar Iron Wire form for training this sort of thing.

With a degree of emphasized tension, many hand techniques in the Wing Chun forms can also train the muscles to snap with a good amount of pressure.

As for Iron Palm, my sifu broke it down like this: hitting the IP bag creates micro-fissures in the bones which calcify over, increasing the amount of bone tissue which makes the bones more dense. It also slightly packs the marrow downwards towards the ends of the extremities. The body fills in the gaps with more marrow, likewise making the limb more dense.

I was highly skeptical of all this, so I ran the whole thing past an orthopedic surgeon that I know. He said all of that stuff would indeed work.

The iron wire can work the tendons and ligaments to a certain degree, it would depend on how one is running the IW and for what purpose.
There is no impact or load bearing in the IW so, NO, it wouldn't do anything for bone density.
Yes, that is the scientific explanation of Iron Hand training ( more or less).

[bawang]

real kung fu lift weights and hit bags, no bullsh1t.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

real kung fu lift weights and hit bags, no bullsh1t.

I was just about to say, don't forget good old fashioned weight lifting. It strengthens muscles, ligaments, tendons and bone as good, or better than anything else.

[TroyMacraft]

The point that LivingArt made above can't be stressed enough, "exercises and routines until your blue in the face, but you wont be achieving anything if your body doesnt have the material to repair and rebuild itself. "

It doesn't matter how hard you train if you don't have the building blocks to repair what you tore down it get repaired plus grow stronger.

[RenDaHai]

Thanks everyone for the info. Much appreciated.

Has anyone tried those vibrating plates that increase bone density? Do you just stand on it or can you do press ups on it and stuff?

[Lee Chiang Po]

Weaponizing your hands is no longer a necessity. Back when knives and fists were the technology of that day it would have required such things in order to be able to do his job. Usually fighting or some such. You will never need hands that can crush and kill from a blow to the head or body. However, what you do can be enhanced somewhat by strengthening yourself. No matter how much skill you might have, being strong with it will make you even better. A good exercise regimen, light weight lifting with lots of reps, maybe some bag work to help you develop proper alignment and strengthen the hand and most importantly the wrists. And of course you need a decent diet. You need that in any event to be healthy.
I have a total gym like Chuck Norris uses, a few dumb bells, and I eat well. When I was younger, I weaponized my hands and now I have great difficulty with them at times. On closer look one can easily see that they are deformed and have little dexterity left in them. I feel pain in them each and every day.

[SPJ]

Well this thread is about strengthening of your tendons lig and such.

Broadening the topic a bit.

1. I have to practice to be fast, accurate and with no hesitation or kuai zun heng.

Both in tong bei and mantis, there are rapid steps and hand moves. Fast and faster.

Your first move is hurried or rushed by the second move, and the 2nd move is rushed by the third move.

The only way to practice is to do it many and many times.

2. In Ba Ji, we practice heavy steps or luo di sheng gen. You drop your steps to the ground and grow roots instantly.

The only way to practice it is to add weights to ankle. increasing weights over time.

There are steel rings and lead pad etc.

Your each step is like an heavy bull lying down or wo niu.

etc etc

:cool:

[David Jamieson]

Weaponizing your hands is no longer a necessity. Back when knives and fists were the technology of that day it would have required such things in order to be able to do his job. Usually fighting or some such. You will never need hands that can crush and kill from a blow to the head or body. However, what you do can be enhanced somewhat by strengthening yourself. No matter how much skill you might have, being strong with it will make you even better. A good exercise regimen, light weight lifting with lots of reps, maybe some bag work to help you develop proper alignment and strengthen the hand and most importantly the wrists. And of course you need a decent diet. You need that in any event to be healthy.
I have a total gym like Chuck Norris uses, a few dumb bells, and I eat well. When I was younger, I weaponized my hands and now I have great difficulty with them at times. On closer look one can easily see that they are deformed and have little dexterity left in them. I feel pain in them each and every day.

I think you did the process incorrectly. I've been practicing iron palm since about '95 or so on a regular basis. I regularly work with heavy bag, and ip bag on concrete.

I also play guitar and paint regularly. I have developed the hand to the point where it's serviceable and I do not suffer at all from this training.

Were you not gradual enough? Did you too hard too fast? If your hands are bothering you from conditioning them, then I am afraid you did not use any shaolin method and may be suffering because you didn't gradually and progressively work the skill?

You can still correct this though and re soften your hands again. heated soaks, pickle juice soaks, and ddj soaks overtime will bring your hands to much better state if you are suffering pain.

[Lee Chiang Po]

I smoked cigars, and would light them with wooden matches. I would strike them by rubbing them across my knuckles. Most likely I did go too hard and way too fast. I did striking exercises as well as wrist strengthening. I had uprights sort of like the rests for a weight bench that had a 2 inch wooden dowel across with a rope attached to the middle. I would wind up 200 pounds by gripping and and rolling the bar, all the way up to the top, then slowly unwind it back down to the floor. My hands and wrists were really strong and could withstand a very hard punch. I had crush power in the fingers as well.
I had a makawara and some cinder blocks that I pounded with my fists, hand edge, palm heel. I did this almost every day for near an hour. I guess it went on for about 6 years. Instead of jow I used good old Corn Huskers Lotion. As I age, my knuckles tend to grow crooked and have lost a great deal of dexterity. I can still hit really hard, but in my daily life I have to soak my hands in cold water so that I can use them normally. Otherwise they simply hurt and do not want to work in full range.

[IronFist]

I'm glad there hasn't been any "lift with your tendons" nonsense in this thread yet :D

[Faruq]

Isn't the iron palm, fist and body training also supposed to densen the fascia as well?

[Brule]

I'm glad there hasn't been any "lift with your tendons" nonsense in this thread yet :D

I lift with my legs.

[Dale Dugas]

Isn't the iron palm, fist and body training also supposed to densen the fascia as well?

It can but you want to strengthen the entire body as well as specific parts.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Its' pretty hard to train one thing in isolation, when doing weight training you are:
Making your bones denser, strengthening the muscles and tendons.
Any activity you do tends to work multiple things and since we never really do just one thing, we tend to cover it all, using weight lifting as an example, as we see above it strengthens all that but because we also stretch the area being worked, we hit the ligaments as well.

[Lucas]

lift with your tendons :eek:

[RenDaHai]

Its' pretty hard to train one thing in isolation, when doing weight training you are:
Making your bones denser, strengthening the muscles and tendons.
Any activity you do tends to work multiple things and since we never really do just one thing, we tend to cover it all, using weight lifting as an example, as we see above it strengthens all that but because we also stretch the area being worked, we hit the ligaments as well.

Yeah, I suppose I was most interested to see if anyone had isolated tendon specific exercises... But I guess this can't really be a good idea since ligaments tendons and muscles and bone need to be balanced and if one lot is uneven it may put to much strain on the others.

[IronWeasel]

cinder blocks that I pounded with my fists.


Instead of jow I used good old Corn Huskers Lotion.



Well, there's the problem....

[pazman]

Having an aikido and judo background, I've always felt ukemi practice was good for strengthening my bones and keeping me loose and relaxed. My judo coach said that ukemi practice increased bone density, though I wouldn't mind seeing some medical studies into that.

Other than that, I like lifting.

[wenshu]

Yeah, I suppose I was most interested to see if anyone had isolated tendon specific exercises...

For the arms, especially the elbows, strict dead hang muscle ups and forward rolls to support on the rings. The transition between pull up to dip puts crazy strain on the tendons in the forearms. Anything on the rings is heavily dependent on tendon strength.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFdz0yjVLik

Russian dips are a good preparatory exercise for the muscle up transition.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdMOTkBU-2U

[Blacktiger]

Training with the iron rings is great for this, and is an obvious one.

Ziranmen has a few bits and pieces, Qigong sets and exercises. Some of them look like strange yoga postures, really open things up. All part of the conditioning and martial Qigong of ZRM.

Although I guess you cant get 100% tendon specific - as its all attached!