Difference between injury and just sore.

[soy]

I think I may have over-done my training one day, and I was just wondering how you would tell the difference between an injury and soreness. How sore is too sore? I know probably none of you are physical therapists or whatever, but I'm sure that theres quite a few people on here who have been in my position before.

Any advice?

Thanks.

[prana]

hey dude.

There is a fine line between overtraining and good training. As long as it is not tweaking pain, such as, torn ligament or tendons, or ripped muscles. Using pain itself is hard to judge, as different people tolerate differently.

rest enough....

Medicine Buddha
om namo bhagawate bekandzyai - guru bendurya prabha randzaya - tatagataya - arhate - samyaksam buddhaya - tayata om bhekandzyai bhekandzyai - maha bhekandzyai bhekandzyai -randza samungate soha

[Lost_Disciple]

Sorry to try to steal the thread, but I've got a similar question. Ever since I did hindu squats the other month, the tendons just above my kneecaps (between the quad and the kneecap) have been real sore. it feels really strained whenever I have to squat down for any reason- even if the squat isn't deep, like getting out of a chair. Stances are murder. The rest of the time it doesn't hurt. I've just been waiting for it to heal & go away. What should I do?

BTW- I'd always heard that any soreness that lasts longer than a couple days is more than normal muscle soreness, and if it still lasts beyond two weeks, it might be a lot more serious.

Just some thoughts from an ignoramus.

[Silumkid]

Generally, if it hurts too much to do much of anything, you may be nursing an injury. As said before, it's a fine line. If you can flex a muscle and it makes you want to eat a steak...that's OK. If it outright hurts, that could be bad.

Hindu squats are OK as long as you are using proper form...however, by their nature they encourage bad form. Just be careful doing them, and if the pain does not subside, discontinue them. You may want to be checked to ensure you aren't developing tendonitis. Really, when doing squats it isn't necessary to go beyong parallel.

Amitabha!

We are trained in wushu; we must protect the Temple!

[Lost_Disciple]

Only did them once, a month ago. Did about 50, didn't get tired, but my knees were popping bad, the whole time. Pain started the next day or so and hasn't gone away.
.

Just some thoughts from an ignoramus.

[Silumkid]

Popping knees does indeed sound like a tendon thing. My suggestion if you want to continue with these is maybe do perform the reps slower and do less....break them up into sets. Say if you want to do 100, try 5 sets of 20 with one or two minute rest in between.

Your knees may just thank you!

Amitabha!

We are trained in wushu; we must protect the Temple!

[Lost_Disciple]

I only did them one time. I don't want to do them anymore. I'm just trying to figure out if I should get an MRI or if these things will heal?And if I'm just gonna let them heal, should I be exercising them? Or should I be totally staying sedentary?

Thanks for responding tho..

Just some thoughts from an ignoramus.

[Silumkid]

No problem. I would think that if the pain persists for more than a few days, get them checked. Otherwise, you can continue to train. For people with knee issues, I usually recommend leg extensions with light weight to start. That will help to build some knee stability. Watch the range of motion as well...if you are lucky enough to have an adjustable arm on the machine, set it so the arm doesn't go under the seat as far.

Amitabha!

We are trained in wushu; we must protect the Temple!

[David]

Soy, if your suffering is ongoing or just gets better the day before you're back in class and it happens again every week then you've got an injury.

I wasted 2 years of my training by not getting arm injuries sorted and it took an enormous effort of will to sit back for 6 months carefully strengthening and learning about the issue. I am so glad I took that time out because I have come back 100% enthusiastic. that's a side effect - if you are suffering like I described, you will come to hate training. I did and that was upsetting because training is a big part of my life. Like I said, I am so glad that it's in the past, now.

A bit of a waffle but I hope you get my point. Look after yourself.

The powers of Kung Fu never fail!
-- Hong Kong Phooey

[soy]

Hey everyone, it's been a few days since I posted this. Thanks for the awesome input! I had a similar problem to the other fellow who posted on this thread. If I had to squat or go up stairs it kinda hurt. But I gave it about 4 days, slept a decent amount and got a good dose of protein/calcium. It feels like it's healing really well. I don't think it was an injury at all, just sore. I'll have to thank my instructor :)

I had a condition exactly like this a few months ago when I went paintballing for the first time. And like this one it healed in about the same amount of time. I'll be sure to try an isolate this muscle group in the future to improve it's durability :)

Once again, thanks for the great input! :)

[soy]

god ****, I over use happy faces!

[SevenStar]

hey, you said **** and it didn't get censored...

-ShortySeven©
Step right up and get it -- whoever wants [defeat]

Come not between the dragon and his wrath...

[SevenStar]

so did I! but it censors d4mmit... weird.

-ShortySeven©
Step right up and get it -- whoever wants [defeat]

Come not between the dragon and his wrath...

[Lost_Disciple]

Lucky :p
My knees are still shot and don't seem to be getting any better. I'm used to soreness in the tendon below the patella, but this is just above, between the patella and the quad and is much more irritating and limiting in what I can do.

Gotta start running again in the next few days. Losing weight should help my joints.
At least it looks like I've got a job soon, so my situation's lookin' up. :)
.

Just some thoughts from an ignoramus.

[soy]

Bananas are good for muscle/joint regeneration!

[mortal]

Isn't doing stances enough of a squat. Everynight when I get home from class my legs are sore as hell. When I first started I couldn't walk the next day. I used to lift weights but I found it takes away from overall flexibilty wich seems to be the root of your injuries. I also feel that weights build the wrong kind of muscles for fighting. You do mean squats with weights don't you?

[Silumkid]

The "Hindu squat" is basically a non-ballistic version of a jump squat. Hamstrings to calves, press up...weights are usually not used for these since the range of motion is so deep.

If your flexibility suffers from weight lifting, you aren't stretching....period. That is a major "urban legend" about lifting.

Weight training has improved my martial arts tremendously...when I was in high school and learning karate, I weighed 130 pounds at 5'10" and couldn't knock out anybody. Now it's quite a bit different.

Amitabha!

We are trained in wushu; we must protect the Temple!

[Lost_Disciple]

Grrr I don't like Hindu Squats. Heheheh

Just one question tho, are hindu squats supposed to be done on your tippie-toes, or is Matt Furey just doing bad form in his articles?
Cuz that's what I did and I'm still hurting.

I've never had any problems with weighted squats- just stay limber between sets and u shouldn't have any problems.
.

Just some thoughts from an ignoramus.

[Sharky]

i eat about three to six banana's a day. That's gotta be bad for me aint it?

================================================== ==========================

"Life's a b*tch, but God-forbid the b*tch divorce me; I'll be flooded with ice, so hellfire can't scorch me"

[Lost_Disciple]

Sharky
You're getting a lot of potassium & other vitamins & minerals. The only thing I'd worry about is the added sugar, but I don't think fruit sugars are nearly as harmful as simple sugars as is found in sodas. Just beware of the calorie intake. Potassium reduces muscle cramping and soreness, so in this capacity, bananas are GOOD!
.

Just some thoughts from an ignoramus.

[Brian_CA]

Soy,

If the pain you experience is a sharp firey pain then generally that is a straining pain. Also if the pain persists for a couple of days get it check out. Soreness should feel dark and dull.

Lost_Disciple,

If your knee is still hurting, try not to run for a while. Ice it and stretch for sometime till the pain goes away. Also I would avoid sparring for a least a month. Try not to do too many kicks in addition. Take it easy for awhile.

Brian
San Francisco, CA

[Silumkid]

Hi Lost,

Well, I have met Matt Furey several times and I think he is a great guy. However, in my classes, I teach that Hindu squats should be done pressing with the heels, NOT the toes. You do have the option of making it a calf move as well by standing on your toes at the TOP of the move, but pressing through the heels in squats of any kind tends to relieve the pressure on the knees and back. Most personal trainers and exercise physiologists advocate the heel press as well. Hope that helps.

Amitabha!

We are trained in wushu; we must protect the Temple!

[Lost_Disciple]

Brian_CA
I've basically sat on my butt for the last month. Hasn't gotten better. Just started running again in the last week or so. Was hoping stripping off some of the weight I've put on the last 2 months would help relieve some stress on my joints.

SilumKid
Okay, so I was doing them wrong. I've got a picture of Furey on his toes at the bottom of the movement. I shoulda just stuck with what I already knew- that the heels stay down. The military (Army) has traditionally used squats in its basic training. In fact, a former president (Eisenhower, if I'm not mistaken) still holds the record in these things with over 1000. Wonder what's so different between the Hindu squat and the traditional calisthenic squat. Maybe it's how straight your back is?
.

Just some thoughts from an ignoramus.

[Silumkid]

Lost,

Were you using his "Combat Conditioning" article as reference? I think I know the pic you mean.

From my research and understanding based on reading Dr. Hatfield's books, the 'regular' squat is better for general conditioning and muscle mass and the Hindu type squats (Dr. Hatfield refers to them as simply deep squats) is more of a power movement. It's a simple range of motion difference. This has helped me in my choice of leg press (either Hammer machine or any standard gym sled) as my leg staple. Having injured my back a few times, I don't think full squats would be my best choice. Don't get me wrong though, squats are great as long as they are performed properly.

Amitabha!

We are trained in wushu; we must protect the Temple!

[Lost_Disciple]

Silumkid
Think I'm starting to get it. I like the calisthenic version of the squat. I have some sticking points in my weighted squat- think I can work through them with the bodyweight version. I know i'm not supposed to do anything on these messed up knees, but a few "normal" squats, just tinkering with my form, has really warmed up my knees- they don't hurt as much. I think I'm going to do regular bodyweight calisthenic squats, especially once these knees are healed. I need to develop proper form if I ever want to consider going back to the weighted version.

BTW- when I say sticking point, I've got a point in my squat when my back starts to bend forward- in order to maintain balance. This happens in some of my kung fu stances as well. I think I can work through it with the bodyweight squat. I can change the form and build the strength to get it right- back straight, so I don't keep up this incorrect form. I can't tell you how ugly some of my weighted squats have gotten. I think it's an issue of a wider stance, or maybe relying on different muscles during my descent.
.

Just some thoughts from an ignoramus.

[Silumkid]

Lost,

It could indeed be a stance issue. Without being there. Obviously it is hard for me to say, but generally speaking squats should be in a shoulder width or slightly wider stance with toes slightly turned out. There are of course other variants such as toes out to sides and legs wider to work inner thigh more...

You may also want to try crossing your arms in front of your chest...this may help with the balance issue. Another thing I like to recommend to folks is to use SPRI or similar exercise bands. They contribute a little extra resistance and this might help you get prepared psychologically for going back to weights. I do these myself from time to time as well as use these bands for extra resistance in push-ups. FEEL THE BURN!! :D

Sidenote: Funny thing about Dr. Hatfield is that he says deep squats are power moves, but also says it is not necessary to go beyond "thighs parallel". Of course, his personal motto is also, "Just lift the **** bar!"

Amitabha!

We are trained in wushu; we must protect the Temple!

[Brian_CA]

Lost_Disciple

Have you been stretching your legs?

Brian
San Francisco, CA

[FallenSigil]

Anyone do the budda? It's kinda like a really low horse stance (thighs parrelelle to the ground. Then tuck your as s and put your arms up. Then tense all your muscles. If you can do it for more then 5 mins, you are either doing it wrong or are a fuking madman.

The way of eluding sword and breaking spear. The way of enduring.

[Lost_Disciple]

Brian_Ca
Not much lately. I loosen up a bit and stretch a lil but nothing to really speak of. You think a quad stretch would help? I been doing a bunch of exercises to loosen up my knees, but haven't tried that yet. Makes sense.

Silumkid
Yah I still got at least one of those exercise bands laying around, I'll give it a shot. There are so many different things it could be- over dependency on a single muscle group, balance, keeping my weight on the wrong part of my foot, lack of strength in certain stabilizer muscles, etc. I know I need to play with it a bit, figure it out, and repeat it until it becomes my natural form.
.

Just some thoughts from an ignoramus.