Secret true Wing Chun...

[LoneTiger108]

I have yet to watch this all the way through as it's literally just gone up on Youtube, but I found it very interesting indeed. May not be great for us Wing Chun guys who want unity rather than division, but hey we can't have it all...

Let me know your first impressions
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQHsgR_yYv0&sns=fb

[GlennR]

I have yet to watch this all the way through as it's literally just gone up on Youtube, but I found it very interesting indeed. May not be great for us Wing Chun guys who want unity rather than division, but hey we can't have it all...

Let me know your first impressions
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQHsgR_yYv0&sns=fb

My impressions are its a guy pumping the YKS lineage..... you did watch the credits didnt you??

[LoneTiger108]

you did watch the credits didnt you??

I just have and see exactly what you mean... I didn't realize this was a piece of YKS propaganda.

[sanjuro_ronin]

There is only ONE secret to WC and it is the same secret used by IP Man and WSL and so many others, this is the secret to making your WC effective in a fight ( just as they did) and this is the secret to making WC YOUR WC ( just as they did).
You ready for it?


READY ??




Are you sure you are ready ??

[Edmund]

Good vid but....

Subtitles weren't accurate in the crucial section.

Around 7:25.

The subtitles that state that "YKS took informal students: Yip Man, Wong Jing and Leung Ou for less than 2 years" were completely NOT what he said. He wasn't as blatant as all that.

Some people who are from a Yip Man lineage may take offence to the statement YM was somehow not given a full WC education but he actually didn't mention YM in that section of the video. That was just inserted in by whoever did the subtitles.

Laughable really since anyone who understands Cantonese can tell the subtitles diverged from the speech.

You have to separate the wheat from the chaff.

It was implied earlier on that the 3 forms and chi sao that are commonly associated with Yip Man came from YKS. YKS invented choreography of the 3 forms which is why the Yuen Chai Wan WC has much more forms and weapons as are other mainland styles. Only those who learnt from YKS would have so many similarities.

[Hendrik]

YKS invented choreography of the 3 forms which is why the Yuen Chai Wan WC has much more forms and weapons as are other mainland styles. Only those who learnt from YKS would have so many similarities.-------



Not true for yks.

Take a look at the snake crane WCK lineage of 1870. They have document of 1870 and they did three sets.

The one long set is belong to 1850 red boat era.

[kung fu fighter]

I have yet to watch this all the way through as it's literally just gone up on Youtube, but I found it very interesting indeed. May not be great for us Wing Chun guys who want unity rather than division, but hey we can't have it all...

Let me know your first impressions
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQHsgR_yYv0&sns=fb

thanks for posting this! a few years ago there was some footage of Pang Chao on youtube. Does anyone know where to find it? if there there are any other Pang Chao videos on youtube?

[Edmund]

Whatever.

I'm just explaining what the video said.

I can't see anything from 1870. Most people haven't got 1970 straight frankly.

[Hendrik]

Whatever.

I'm just explaining what the video said.

I can't see anything from 1870. Most people haven't got 1970 straight frankly.

That is why we must not spread more rumors to cause more confusion.

[LoneTiger108]

I wouldn't like to be singled out for spreading rumours because this clip was not put up on Youtube by myself I am simply sharing what I find.

Even your own research Hendrik is cool, but talking of 1870 era without sharing the full evidence is also no good for anyone either to be honest.

Edmund is right. 1970 WCK still has some explaining to do!! ;)

[Hendrik]

I wouldn't like to be singled out for spreading rumours because this clip was not put up on Youtube by myself I am simply sharing what I find.

Even your own research Hendrik is cool, but talking of 1870 era without sharing the full evidence is also no good for anyone either to be honest.

Edmund is right. 1970 WCK still has some explaining to do!! ;)


Did it pointing at you are I say "we"?



As for 1870,

You must be absent minded.

It is in this forum, Wayne of the snake crane WCK lineage share his ancestor 's 1870 writing copy cover page. Anyone can get access .

Snake crane is a sister lineage of yks. And they do three sets.

[Vajramusti]

YKS family propaganda or not, Sum Nun propaganda or not, wrong subtitles or not, anti Ip Man or not-
does not matter- best to just watch- a different take.

joy chaudhuri

[WingChunABQ]

There is only ONE secret to WC and it is the same secret used by IP Man and WSL and so many others, this is the secret to making your WC effective in a fight ( just as they did) and this is the secret to making WC YOUR WC ( just as they did).
You ready for it?


READY ??




Are you sure you are ready ??

No! Wait.... hold on a second...

[sanjuro_ronin]

No! Wait.... hold on a second...

Let me know when you're ready * mediates for world peace*

[TenTigers]

Dr. Leung Jan aka Sifu John Crescione, said it best..long, long ago, when I asked him about YKS and Pa Fa Lien WC, Traditional, non-traditional, etc.

"There are only two kinds of Wing Chun. Good Wing Chun, and Bad Wing Chun."
:cool:

[sanjuro_ronin]

Dr. Leung Jan aka Sifu John Crescione, said it best..long, long ago, when I asked him about YKS and Pa Fa Lien WC, Traditional, non-traditional, etc.

"There are only two kinds of Wing Chun. Good Wing Chun, and Bad Wing Chun."
:cool:

Well, that's just crazy talk !!
:D

[WingChunABQ]

Let me know when you're ready * mediates for world peace*

I... well...

okay, NOW!

[sanjuro_ronin]

I... well...

okay, NOW!

Here you go *is attacked by snake engine WC ninjas * :eek:

[WingChunABQ]

here you go *is attacked by snake engine wc ninjas * :eek:

noooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[MOSHE]

the daughter of Sum Nun was living in my city in France.
her husband from cambodia, when living in china learned WC from his father in law

this wing chun doesnt use the same know how that leung bik teached to yip man

it is far more rudimentary and more physical
we see this for example with their posture ,and the position of the tan sao hand

leung chan who was very smart and educated adapted a modified version to

the physic of sha wah son who was tall with strong arms

and when he retired to kulo to the people of this village who were physical workers not really educated

[LoneTiger108]

As for 1870,

You must be absent minded.

Maybe so, especially when I'm at work!


It is in this forum, Wayne of the snake crane WCK lineage share his ancestor 's 1870 writing copy cover page. Anyone can get access .

Snake crane is a sister lineage of yks. And they do three sets.

I know about Wayne Hendrik and what he has claimed with regards to his Snake Crane Wing Chun, but what I am asking for is actual evidence not someones personal research because we all have our own, y'know?

And considering what others have said about the subtitles being incorrect, and in effect laying claims about Ip Man that were not mentioned really does nothing to inspire confidence in anything this guy said then or now. Not for me anyway, but I will check it our for myself now I am home...

[LoneTiger108]

the daughter of Sum Nun was living in my city in France.
her husband from cambodia, when living in china learned WC from his father in law

Just to offer another viewpoint here, My Sifu has plenty of daughters who have all had boyfriends and a husband who once took part and learnt Wing Chun for a while, only because of the connection.

He taught them basics but it all came to nothing. It simply doesn't work that way. He also taught all his daughters for yrears and years and it still means nothing because ultimately they too are not Martial Artists. They simply couldn't take it.

Bloodline is a convenience. That's all.

[Hendrik]

Maybe so, especially when I'm at work!



I know about Wayne Hendrik and what he has claimed with regards to his Snake Crane Wing Chun, but what I am asking for is actual evidence not someones personal research because we all have our own, y'know?

And considering what others have said about the subtitles being incorrect, and in effect laying claims about Ip Man that were not mentioned really does nothing to inspire confidence in anything this guy said then or now. Not for me anyway, but I will check it our for myself now I am home...


Wayne, is from the Lo family. Lo is since 1860. Lo has preserve the book written in 1870 for past four generation as it is. They have released the cover page of that book.


To be honest, when these people says they are researching. They are just beings humble. They have inherit the solid teaching but just to give face to today's his story making people to not lost face.


As I said before, just look at the first two section of the slt one does it will have enough signature to tell what it is .

[sanjuro_ronin]

People have been making WC work for them where it counts ( in fights) for a very long time WITHOUT any "book" or "secrets" but with hard work and doing something that is sorely lacking in a few posters here: FIGHTING.
Some people need to stop standing on the shoulders of those that came before them, they need to stop nutriding and get into action.

[Edmund]

That is why we must not spread more rumors to cause more confusion.

You misunderstand what I'm saying.

Your 1870 WC is probably not from 1870.

It's just wishful thinking. Some guy who says his art or his book is from 1870.

Many styles of kung fu share similar terms, postures, sequences, moves and theories with WC. It doesn't mean anything on its own.

Who learnt from whom. That's lineage. Sort that out first.
That is what's talked about on the video when you sort the wheat from the chaff.

[MOSHE]

Just to offer another viewpoint here, My Sifu has plenty of daughters who have all had boyfriends and a husband who once took part and learnt Wing Chun for a while, only because of the connection.

He taught them basics but it all came to nothing. It simply doesn't work that way. He also taught all his daughters for yrears and years and it still means nothing because ultimately they too are not Martial Artists. They simply couldn't take it.

Bloodline is a convenience. That's all.

I know that and I will not add names but in this case I have every thing in hands to certify what I wrote, I didn't just knew them

[wingchunIan]

I couldn't give a monkeys who taught who and who was whose favourite student, longest serving washer woman or anything else. What I've been taught works (for me, my sifu and for several of my kung fu brothers) and that's all that matters. If folks from other alledged lineages can show me different stuff that helps make my Wing Chun better whether its training methods, techniques, ways of moving, internal stuff or philosophy I'm all ears (and I can proudly say that I've incorporated drills that have been posted by several posters) but all I ever see in clips like this is either old guys in tacky shops making grand claims about lineage or clips of people doing stuff that looks quite frankly crap (and I don't mean it doesn't look pretty I mean it looks like it would get you hurt):p. If Ip Man only learnt a bit of the system, only trained for a tiny period of time and was an opium addict as well then fair play to him because what he passed on to his students was pretty good.

[LoneTiger108]

I know that and I will not add names but is this case I have every thing in hands to certify what I wrote, I didn't just knew them

It's fine MOSHE I'm not asking for you to reveal the who's who of Sum Nung WCK, I was just offering my own experience of 'blood' family teaching and it's pitfalls. I think it's great that some older lineages have kept books from their origins, but I also guess this is the big question: What origins exactly?? Ip Ching has Leung Jans original book too, but do you think it matters when he can not understand Medicinal poetry? Perhaps he can, but I see no evidence of this being taught to anyone outside HK.


I couldn't give a monkeys who taught who and who was whose favourite student, longest serving washer woman or anything else.

This is the right attitude to have IMHHO. Don't get me wrong, I have a lassive respecys for the fforts of our Wing Chun ancestors, but for the present time, just do what you can do yourself and don't fall into the 'he said she said' crap!


... but all I ever see in clips like this is either old guys in tacky shops making grand claims about lineage or clips of people doing stuff that looks quite frankly crap (and I don't mean it doesn't look pretty I mean it looks like it would get you hurt).

I understand the frustration believe me, but I do appreciate the work that certain people have put into researching our system. I only wish they could also be a little more responsible for the stories that they promote, because as I think we all agree, we can do without more stories.

[imperialtaichi]

History, traditions, politics are all parts of WC, should be recorded in books for future reference.

You don't win fights with future reference.

[Vajramusti]

History, traditions, politics are all parts of WC, should be recorded in books for future reference.

You don't win fights with future reference.
-----------------------------------------------------------
True. IMO three things are important in developing a wing chun approach- a knowledgeable teacher,
good practice and experience.

joy chaudhuri

[LoneTiger108]

History, traditions, politics are all parts of WC, should be recorded in books for future reference.

You don't win fights with future reference.

I see your angle, but if I was only ever concerned with 'winning fights' my Sifu would have never taught me what he did. It's just his way, and it was the way of his Sifu and Ip Man before him (or so I heard lol!)

FWIW I think books on Wing Chun should really become a thing of the past. We live in a modern age, and I think our way forward is to openly share our knowledge through film. So people can actually SEE what you are talking about!

And here-in lay another little secret...

Some people simply do not want to be seen :cool: maybe because they're just too awesome!!

[WC1277]

There's no secrets in WC, only confusion on how to best explain what is literally universal. There's never been "secrets" except a desire not to teach foreigners. But since that's a thing of the past, really it just comes down to a lack of understanding simplicity in fighting and body unity in movement. A physical therapist could figure out a fighting system very similar to WC if they really wanted to....

[GlennR]

FWIW I think books on Wing Chun should really become a thing of the past. We live in a modern age, and I think our way forward is to openly share our knowledge through film. So people can actually SEE what you are talking about!

I disagree with you here, books compliment video footage IMO


And here-in lay another little secret...

Some people simply do not want to be seen :cool: maybe because they're just too awesome!


Yeh, they live in the Bat Cave

[LoneTiger108]

There's no secrets in WC, only confusion on how to best explain what is literally universal. There's never been "secrets" except a desire not to teach foreigners. But since that's a thing of the past...

You may be interested to know that it really isn't a 'thing of the past'. Some of the older generations still only teach Chinese and family, so with the greatest respect you are wrong to think it's an open playing field.

Yes, there have been many changes in recent times, but as a living example my Sifu started his learning in 1965, opened his first 'club' in 1978 but only taught with no restriction to a small group of guys from 1995. That's 30 years of not teaching how he wanted to. 30 years of teaching without his native language. 30 years of trying to teach with limited English!


A physical therapist could figure out a fighting system very similar to WC if they really wanted to....

That's a bit of a stretch, but I can see what you mean. If all the original chinese terms were erased and we all had a universal English way of teaching using physio-lingo that might be a start. But fme this has already been done in the UK, and elsewhere, over and over and over again but we still face the same issues as before. Stagnation in learning has to be unlocked through correct guidance, and the language already exists for this to be possible. It's Chinese ;) We just need a unified translation!!

[LoneTiger108]

I disagree with you here, books compliment video footage IMO

I agree to a point.

I see and read many many many peoples views and ideas about what Wing Chun is all about. Not just here in the forums but through book format too. But I tend not to see too many decent reflections of books on video/DVD.

One of my Sifus students wrote a song entitled "Talk Wing Chun, Walk Wing Chun" which says alot about this subject.

Lots of words that describe Wing Chun perfectly out there, but not enough videos that live up to the expectation IMHO.

[Hendrik]

There's no secrets in WC, only confusion on how to best explain what is literally universal. There's never been "secrets" except a desire not to teach foreigners. But since that's a thing of the past, really it just comes down to a lack of understanding simplicity in fighting and body unity in movement. A physical therapist could figure out a fighting system very similar to WC if they really wanted to....

1. Yes there are lots of purposely untold key points.

2. No. Get the best physical therapist you know in the west and see how far he could decode siu Lin tau.

[Vajramusti]

There's no secrets in WC, only confusion on how to best explain what is literally universal.

((Not quite true imo. Also depends on what is meant by secret. Knowledge involves building blocks in some subjects.))

. A physical therapist could figure out a fighting system very similar to WC if they really wanted to....

((I doubt it))

joy

[sanjuro_ronin]

There's no secrets in WC, only confusion on how to best explain what is literally universal. There's never been "secrets" except a desire not to teach foreigners. But since that's a thing of the past, really it just comes down to a lack of understanding simplicity in fighting and body unity in movement. A physical therapist could figure out a fighting system very similar to WC if they really wanted to....

Hmmm, you need to be a fighter to "figure" out a fighting system.
Ooops, I just gave away the secret !
*runs and hides from WC ninjas*

[LoneTiger108]

Hmmm, you need to be a fighter to "figure" out a fighting system.

If this is YOUR big secret of Martial Arts I can kinda see why you are lost :eek:

[sanjuro_ronin]

If this is YOUR big secret of Martial Arts I can kinda see why you are lost :eek:

You need to look around dude and look hard and see that WC may be plagued by many things but a preponderance of fighters is NOT one of them.

[LoneTiger108]

You need to look around dude and look hard and see that WC may be plagued by many things but a preponderance of fighters is NOT one of them.

And I really don't mind that as much as others seem to! I'm not really into scrapping and such, I am more interested in delivering the system in more controlled ways. Sparring as exercise has it's place but p l e a s e ! There are also many other attributes that need developing before you go on the mat or into a ring.

I prefer to coach people through that, and if they decide to go there I will supprt them to. But many guys I know with a very decent skill in Wing Chun can't be bothered with changing their habits to suit referees and the like. Besides, there still isn't enough money in it in the UK to make it viable so stop banging on about fighting fighting fighting because it really does get a little boring...

[sanjuro_ronin]

And I really don't mind that as much as others seem to! I'm not really into scrapping and such, I am more interested in delivering the system in more controlled ways. Sparring as exercise has it's place but p l e a s e ! There are also many other attributes that need developing before you go on the mat or into a ring.

I prefer to coach people through that, and if they decide to go there I will supprt them to. But many guys I know with a very decent skill in Wing Chun can't be bothered with changing their habits to suit referees and the like. Besides, there still isn't enough money in it in the UK to make it viable so stop banging on about fighting fighting fighting because it really does get a little boring...

I don't think you understand what I am trying to say.
Sorry.
What I am saying is that IF there is a secret to "unlocking" the fighting aspect of WC, that "secret" is fighting.
When you fight with your WC you find what works, what doesn't and how to make what doesn't work, work.
The one thing all of the great WC masters of the past had in common was they FOUGHT.
That is how one makes WC work.
It isn't locked in books, scrolls, poems or archaic mumble-jumbo and nonsense.
You fight, just like THEY did.

[Wayfaring]

The one thing all of the great WC masters of the past had in common was they FOUGHT.
That is how one makes WC work.


And here all along I was thinking it was by sitting around drinking tea and discussing inch power chi development.

[LoneTiger108]

The one thing all of the great WC masters of the past had in common was they FOUGHT.
That is how one makes WC work.
It isn't locked in books, scrolls, poems or archaic mumble-jumbo and nonsense.
You fight, just like THEY did.

I think you may have a warped understanding of what was actually happening in these fights and how skilled (or not) some of the past matches were. And if you go even further back than Ip Man, it's all just story after story.

[Wayfaring]

I think you may have a warped understanding of what was actually happening in these fights and how skilled (or not) some of the past matches were. And if you go even further back than Ip Man, it's all just story after story.

So your contention is that the old WC masters weren't really that skilled at all - just overhyped?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think you may have a warped understanding of what was actually happening in these fights and how skilled (or not) some of the past matches were. And if you go even further back than Ip Man, it's all just story after story.

Dude, they FOUGHT.
That is enough.
They fought, they applied their WC, they saw what worked and what didn't and went from there.
That is the commonality of all the "great" masters in all the various MA, they fought and they tested their art and that was how they were able to APPLY their art.

[wingchunIan]

Dude, they FOUGHT.
That is enough.
They fought, they applied their WC, they saw what worked and what didn't and went from there.
That is the commonality of all the "great" masters in all the various MA, they fought and they tested their art and that was how they were able to APPLY their art.

I don't disagree with a need to pressure test but a couple of points that spring to mind
1) if something doesn't work in a fight is the technique at fault or your execution / skill level?
2) if something doesn't work for you in a fight how do you know it won't work next time?
3) if something works / doesn't work for you in a fight does that mean it won't work for someone else?
4) if something works in a fight does it mean it will work next time?
5) if something works in a fight is it because of the technique or a mistake by your opponent
you get the jist. Simply fighting requires a hell of a lot of fights to learn anything and anything you learn only applies to you. Learning anecdotally by other people's fights allows you to learn from a far wider spectrum. Dealing with the psychological aspects of fighting and the harsh reality of the pace and distance of a real fight and what it feels like to really be hit have to be experienced so that the individual isn't the weak link.
There are no secrets to wingchun, its simplicity is what makes it effective

[FongSung]

It was not so long ago that Cho Ga students, in Nga Wu, were “encouraged” and expected to go out and fight after learning a new form or section. Fighting was an important part of the practical learning process. I heard many first hand accounts during my recent visit there. These days this doesn’t happen so often.

[LoneTiger108]

So your contention is that the old WC masters weren't really that skilled at all - just overhyped?

Overhyped? Yes. Not really that skilled? No, I believe they were. But stories are simply that.

My point is if we have to fight to learn then we will all be fighting for our entire lives and, for me, that is just simply not possible. I wouldn't want that for myself, my family or my kids!

Ian summed it up well I think. SO many things are discovered whilst fighting you would need SO many fights to learn everything and we have our way of training Wing Chun that allows us to pressure test safely first. Man. This is WHY we have our interactive platforms! So we don't have to go around fighting every Tom D1ck n Harry!

Then you have the whole competitive/real street argument.

I just want to train well, train hard and promote decent standards of Wing Chun. And unfortunately, I have never seem a platform for competition yet that allows this to happen. Never.

So I return to what I know best, which is to show how we train through performance instead!

[Frost]

Overhyped? Yes. Not really that skilled? No, I believe they were. But stories are simply that.

My point is if we have to fight to learn then we will all be fighting for our entire lives and, for me, that is just simply not possible. I wouldn't want that for myself, my family or my kids!

Ian summed it up well I think. SO many things are discovered whilst fighting you would need SO many fights to learn everything and we have our way of training Wing Chun that allows us to pressure test safely first. Man. This is WHY we have our interactive platforms! So we don't have to go around fighting every Tom D1ck n Harry!

Then you have the whole competitive/real street argument.

I just want to train well, train hard and promote decent standards of Wing Chun. And unfortunately, I have never seem a platform for competition yet that allows this to happen. Never.

So I return to what I know best, which is to show how we train through performance instead!

Nobody is saying you need to fight your entire life, but if your under 40 and not entering comps and non of your guys are, and you don’t spare hard and often then it’s a stretch to say you are teaching anything combat related
And we have full contact fighting events with gloves, with little gloves and just hand wraps/bare hand (in the uk these are illegal but you can find fights like this all over the place…hint go see your local gypsy camps!) we have comps that allow for stand up only, stand up and clinch only, or stand up clinch and ground, ,..and none of them in your view allows wing chun to truly flourish and work well?
Do you view wing chun as soothing different than a fighting art then?
And fighting/sparring isn’t performance in your view then what is exactly? How else do you pressure test your art to know its going to work if you need it?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I don't disagree with a need to pressure test but a couple of points that spring to mind
1) if something doesn't work in a fight is the technique at fault or your execution / skill level?
2) if something doesn't work for you in a fight how do you know it won't work next time?
3) if something works / doesn't work for you in a fight does that mean it won't work for someone else?
4) if something works in a fight does it mean it will work next time?
5) if something works in a fight is it because of the technique or a mistake by your opponent
you get the jist. Simply fighting requires a hell of a lot of fights to learn anything and anything you learn only applies to you. Learning anecdotally by other people's fights allows you to learn from a far wider spectrum. Dealing with the psychological aspects of fighting and the harsh reality of the pace and distance of a real fight and what it feels like to really be hit have to be experienced so that the individual isn't the weak link.
There are no secrets to wingchun, its simplicity is what makes it effective

These are all questions that are answered by fighting consistently.


Not to make clear, no one is suggesting that we spend our life fighting and most certianly the past masters didn't.
But what MUST be done to "unlock" these "secrets" is to TEST our our in a fighting environment.
In the past challenge matches were an option that we don't have NOR need today.
We have limited rules venues and other alternatives.

It is by testing that we find out how good we are, how good our understanding of a system we have and what we need to do to make it work.

[LoneTiger108]

Do you view wing chun as soothing different than a fighting art then?

No. But I do not view Wing Chun as a 'sparring or competitive' art. I train a system that has sparring as a tiny part of the whole, and we spar 'differently' too as we have various interactive training platforms.


And fighting/sparring isn’t performance in your view then what is exactly?

By performance, in my earlier post, I am referring to actual performing, like on stage. We are quite closely linked to the Canton Opera, so we have always put shows together and the like and this is what I do best.


How else do you pressure test your art to know its going to work if you need it?

We have quite a few ways actually, outside of standard Chisau practise. We tend to be more controlled but the pressure is still there. We specialize in paired and group practise too which adds another layer to testing your basics.

My point is, none of the guys I train with are training for comps. Not many are even that interested for reasons I have said many times before. But if any do get that buzz from it all, then we would train more sparring. Simple.

[Frost]

No. But I do not view Wing Chun as a 'sparring or competitive' art. I train a system that has sparring as a tiny part of the whole, and we spar 'differently' too as we have various interactive training platforms.



By performance, in my earlier post, I am referring to actual performing, like on stage. We are quite closely linked to the Canton Opera, so we have always put shows together and the like and this is what I do best.



We have quite a few ways actually, outside of standard Chisau practise. We tend to be more controlled but the pressure is still there. We specialize in paired and group practise too which adds another layer to testing your basics.

My point is, none of the guys I train with are training for comps. Not many are even that interested for reasons I have said many times before. But if any do get that buzz from it all, then we would train more sparring. Simple.

So it’s a fighting art that trains fighting by not doing much fighting then or a performace art like dance which you judge on how good you look when doing compliant demos?
So your guys aren’t interested in the fighting aspects, but more the dance performance side? A bit like tai chi for health fu and fitness

[sanjuro_ronin]

Two man pre-arranged fighting routines were developed for two reasons:
1)Performance
2)To make people that were too pussified to actually fight, think they were fighting and feel "good" about themselves.

[LoneTiger108]

So it’s a fighting art that trains fighting by not doing much fighting then or a performace art like dance which you judge on how good you look when doing compliant demos?
So your guys aren’t interested in the fighting aspects, but more the dance performance side? A bit like tai chi for health fu and fitness

If that's what you see, then that's what you see dude.

Fighting without fighting... now that sounds familiar to me! Thanks for your view.


Two man pre-arranged fighting routines were developed for two reasons:
1)Performance
2)To make people that were too pussified to actually fight, think they were fighting and feel "good" about themselves.

Then stay away from the Traditional arts man, and just join a boxing/MMA gym!

I know exactly what you guys are trying to do, and it is laughable. You are already trying to preach to the converted. You may not really understand what I mean by interactive training because you have never experienced it in the way I am saying, but if I used the word 'sparring' it would be okay? And you both seem to just want to throw little insults at me because I wont be part of your MMA Fighting gang lol! ;)

Funny guys...

[sanjuro_ronin]

If that's what you see, then that's what you see dude.

Fighting without fighting... now that sounds familiar to me! Thanks for your view.



Then stay away from the Traditional arts man, and just join a boxing/MMA gym!

I know exactly what you guys are trying to do, and it is laughable. You are already trying to preach to the converted. You may not really understand what I mean by interactive training because you have never experienced it in the way I am saying, but if I used the word 'sparring' it would be okay? And you both seem to just want to throw little insults at me because I wont be part of your MMA Fighting gang lol! ;)

Funny guys...

I think YOUR understanding of "traditional" and mine are VERY, VERY different dude.
Traditional Martial arts were developed for what reason?
To fight with, period.
WC was developed for what reason?
To fight with, period.

Spencer, you started a thread called "secret true wing chun", right?

Well, there is only ONE secret do making WC what it was DESIGNED FOR:
Fighting unlocks all the secrets.

[Frost]

If that's what you see, then that's what you see dude.

Fighting without fighting... now that sounds familiar to me! Thanks for your view.



Then stay away from the Traditional arts man, and just join a boxing/MMA gym!

I know exactly what you guys are trying to do, and it is laughable. You are already trying to preach to the converted. You may not really understand what I mean by interactive training because you have never experienced it in the way I am saying, but if I used the word 'sparring' it would be okay? And you both seem to just want to throw little insults at me because I wont be part of your MMA Fighting gang lol! ;)

Funny guys...

Insults you are the one who talked about performance, the opera and demos im just trying to understand your view point as its totally different from any TCMA approach I have seen before
For instance my current TCMA coach encourages us to do sticky hand work as well, which progresses into attached free flow sparring allowing shots to the body with power shots to the head (controlled) locks and throws are also encouraged. We also do unattached barehand controlled sparing, as well as gloving up and going harder,

My previous master taught sticky, as well as encouraged his guys to fight both semi and full contact

So Im just trying to understand what you are talking about no other motive, if you’re not interested in the fighting aspects but see it as something more that’s cool, I enjoy the performance side too, but personally without sparring in various formats I for one aren’t comfortable knowing something works without that feedback, sparring can be unattached or attached at various intensities

If you use other platforms could you explain them? Do they include contact work and attacks that are not prearranged and do they continue

[LoneTiger108]

Spencer, you started a thread called "secret true wing chun", right?

Read the first post ;) I think you will find I was simply sharing a Youtube video of someone promoting Yuen Kay Shan lineage by suggesting that the secrets to learning Wing Chun back in the day was having money lol!!


Well, there is only ONE secret do making WC what it was DESIGNED FOR:
Fighting unlocks all the secrets.

And I am not arguing with you about fighting because I know what you mean dude but I don't have to agree with you!

[LoneTiger108]

...sparring can be unattached or attached at various intensities

If you use other platforms could you explain them? Do they include contact work and attacks that are not prearranged and do they continue

Yes yes and yes. :rolleyes:

This is what I am saying, but because I use the word 'interactive' it ISN'T sparring to YOU??! But what you describe are very similar methods we do all the time. Granted, we rarely allow the detached, full contact, ground fighting MMA approach but as I have also said, if a student wanted to progress into comps etc I personally would have no issues doing that sort of thing or recommending guys I know to train them in other arts.

But what I see hear is two guys on some sort of mission to put Wing Chun I do into a box. If you don't fight you aint doing Wing Chun??!! That is simply ridiculous.

I can do Wing Chun while I'm cleaning my house :D but that doesn't mean I'm busting holes in walls with my shadowless kick!

[CFT]

But what I see hear is two guys on some sort of mission to put Wing Chun I do into a box. If you don't fight you aint doing Wing Chun??!! That is simply ridiculous.No that is not what they're saying. The question they are posing is: "how do you know your Wing Chun is effective if you don't compete outside of your training circle"?

[LoneTiger108]

No that is not what they're saying. The question they are posing is: "how do you know your Wing Chun is effective if you don't compete outside of your training circle"?

FWIW I don't even think it's that they are saying, but in answer to your question, why would I want to know my Wing Chun is effective? And effective in what way exactly? Sparring? Maintaining my health? Street fights? Competition? And why do I even want to compete with Wing Chun with anyone?

It is an age-old boring debate IMO which does nothing for where I am at today with my own training. I can answer all my own questions, sitting on both sides of the proverbial sparring fence, but it doesn't help me.

It's great that people who learn Martial Arts want to compete, and fight, but that was never the reason I got into it at all. It seems to be more of a modern thing? Influenced by modern trends and I have never really followed trends.

I have also asked these guys why they don't go into a nearby Wing Chun school and 'spar' in a Chisau format with some guys outside their circles, but no. They don't do that because our training is all so pointless and they would whoop our ass!! Right :rolleyes: I have also said on more than one occassion that I would recommend anyone interested in this sort of thing to enter sanctioned Sanda/Sanshou events I know of in the UK.

And can I remind everyone that it was a martial uncle of mine, Joseph Cheng, that literally tore up anyone in his path and became pretty well known around the world for his fighting skills because he openly trained and sparred with anyone and everyone at the time.

You might be interested to know he never 'sparred' with his Wing Chun brothers either ;)

Sorry, rant over...

[sanjuro_ronin]

No that is not what they're saying. The question they are posing is: "how do you know your Wing Chun is effective if you don't compete outside of your training circle"?

Well, that is PART of it yes, of course that is common sense.
But what I am saying is that for THIS topic ( Secret true WC), the only secret to WC is that you have to fight with it to unlock its "secrets".
Which is exactly the same for every other MARTIAL art.
You don't unlock the "secrets" of Judo by NOT doing randori.
You don't unlock the "secrets" of driving by reading the car manual or a driving instruction book or by going out on a closed road, you unlock them by actually driving and the more you drive and the higher the level of difficult of the "track", the better you get at it.

[LoneTiger108]

I hear ya Sanjuro and maybe at some point in time the larger Wing Chun community can sit together to create such an accepted platform to compete with eachother, like all the other arts seem to have.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;116973

And can I remind everyone that it was a martial uncle of mine, Joseph Cheng, that literally tore up anyone in his path and became pretty well known around the world for his fighting skills because he openly trained and sparred with anyone and everyone at the time.
---------------------------------------------------------------

Anyone? Are you sure of that?

But what does that have to do with you.

Late in the "conversation"- maybe I missed something.

joy

[JPinAZ]

But what I see hear is two guys on some sort of mission to put Wing Chun I do into a box. If you don't fight you aint doing Wing Chun??!! That is simply ridiculous.


Actually, I agree with them. So I guess that makes it three guys :D

To answer your question, yes, if you don't 'fight' you are not really doing Wing Chun. Wing Chun is about FIGHTING. If you never fight, or at the very least least spar (put on the gloves and go at it), then you have never really tested your art and you haven't really 'used' your wing chun. Doing chi sau and drills develops your skills only so far, but that's not wing chun - that's just curriculum.


maybe at some point in time the larger Wing Chun community can sit together to create such an accepted platform to compete with eachother, like all the other arts seem to have.

I'm curious, why the for a Wing Chun only platform? There are plenty of venues and ways to test our art besides having to create a WC-specific one (many of which have already been mentioned). What's wrong with local comps, smokers, etc? I guess if someone doesn't want to do these things, that's coll. But if that same person is only drilling/chi sauing within the safety of those in their school, they are cutting thier skill development very short IMO, and probably not really 'testing'/applying thier art..

[imperialtaichi]

I totally respect people doing WC, or any MA, for whatever reason as well and not just necessarily for fighting.

But I guess in a way I am like a little kid building a toy car, and I love playing with friends and racing against their toy cars as well. I love crossing hands with other stylists, who put aside politics and agender and enjoy a good exchange. Can't stand those who think they are the best and know everything and that their art is better than everyone else's.

I can never understand how people could train with great devotion but never wanting to test it. But I do respect their reasons and choices.

I don't believe in any competitions that's WC specific. However, I am helping a Sanda trainer to use WC (KLWC) techniques/strategies to score points.

[lance]

I have yet to watch this all the way through as it's literally just gone up on Youtube, but I found it very interesting indeed. May not be great for us Wing Chun guys who want unity rather than division, but hey we can't have it all...

Let me know your first impressions
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQHsgR_yYv0&sns=fb

LoneTiger , unfortunately they removed it from youtube , so I can ' t see it .

[lance]

Well, that is PART of it yes, of course that is common sense.
But what I am saying is that for THIS topic ( Secret true WC), the only secret to WC is that you have to fight with it to unlock its "secrets".
Which is exactly the same for every other MARTIAL art.
You don't unlock the "secrets" of Judo by NOT doing randori.
You don't unlock the "secrets" of driving by reading the car manual or a driving instruction book or by going out on a closed road, you unlock them by actually driving and the more you drive and the higher the level of difficult of the "track", the better you get at it.

I agree with you , you right . That ' s the only way the truth will come out , is when you fight with wing chun . Other than that how in hell are you really going to know about wing chun ? If you don ' t spar or test out wing chun ?

We all come in different sizes and shapes so therefore our wing chun hand techniques should be used in a way that will be workable for us , should the sutuation occur . And if people say that the stories of people like Ip Man or WSL are just stories , then we have to test it out ourselves . Then that way we can all unlock the secrets of wing chun .

And if WC is such a junk art then , why are people still learning WC from the guys who really learned from Ip Man or WSL thenselves . Look at Sifu Augustine Fong he makes WC work for him , he participates in kung fu tournaments when ever there is a tournament . His favorite technique chi sao . Other than that Joy I
don ' t want to put you in the spot but you would know about your sigung more than me , is your sigung fong really that good ? Because you trained under him yourself . Even on this WC thread people still want to learn WC from David Peterson , so that ' s why his Wc seminar is still posted . If WC did ' nt work , but people are still learning from Ip Mans' or WSL students , then it means one thing , they found out how to make it work for them . People began to be open minded and really experimented with the WC techniques themselves , analyzed it and figured out a way to make it work .

[wingchunIan]

Two man pre-arranged fighting routines were developed for two reasons:
1)Performance
2)To make people that were too pussified to actually fight, think they were fighting and feel "good" about themselves.

Maybe all that fighting that you do has resulted in one too many blows to the head :p

prearranged partner drills have always been used by every martial art on the planet as a way of teaching concepts and applications of techniques. Partner A provides stimulus Y and you react by X. It has a natural and useful place in the learning process before introducing more degrees of freedom on both sides until finally you end up with either chi sau or sparring or both. Its not just for beginners either before I get accused of saying that, polishing individual building blocks by repetition over the years is a necessary part of continuous improvement.

[wingchunIan]

For what its worth, I don't include "sparring" in my classes and I would never encourage any of my fighters to enter competitions (although I wouldn't stop them if they wanted to). The whole premise of WC is as a street effective system that equallises things for the smaller person, if there is a competition that allows groin strikes, throat strikes, strikes to the back, eye gouges and knees and kicks to downed opponents then it is probably a decent test of ones WC but who on earth would volunteer to take part when there is a real risk of serious injury? the money would have to be extremely good.
I prefer to pressure test my students (and myself) by using body armour, scenario drills, mutliple attackers etc attackers throwing full power, resisting and doing anything that comes to mind.
Its my choice, but ever since Kano created judo there have been two schools of thought in martial arts. One school is to remove the most dangerous techniques and create sporting competitions that can hone reflexes and allow pressure testing, the other is to retain the techniques that cannot be used in full contact training / competition and accept that reflexes have to be honed in other ways. The advent of modern protective equipment has meant that the gap has closed but there is still a gap and everyone must choose their own path.
How do I know my WC works? because it has done every time I've needed it. Equally some of my students are in professions where they are exposed to violence regularly and it works for them. Is my way the only way? absolutely not, but it is a way. Does the sporting way work? absolutely for some, but there are equally many competition fighters from boxers to MMA fighters that come unstuck because the rules change in the street.
Both are vaild approaches, the trick IMHO is to be aware of the limitations of your chosen approach and devise ways of getting round them.

[LoneTiger108]

Wow. I go to sleep, get up, struggle into work and it really looks like some good discussing going on here. Balancing the for and against sparring a little better I think, so thanks for all your posts.

[LoneTiger108]

I'm curious, why the for a Wing Chun only platform?

I mentioned that because this is what seems to be missing. Otheres also mentioned training/sparring outside your own circle, so I presume that was meant to suggest other Wing Chun people.


Anyone? Are you sure of that? (RE: Joseph Cheng taking on any challenegers)

But what does that have to do with you?

Well, nothing Joy. Other than being relevant to what was being suggested, about us Wing Chun guys never sparring outside our own comfort zone. I only mentioned my uncle because he was doing that in the mid 1970s, and if you knew any other history about my lineage, others have actively fought many other styles over the years, both for fun and for face.

I know and understand the differences in the fight these days in comparison to then, but still wanted to make a point that Wing Chun people have been actively 'out there' for many many years.

You for one, I would have thought, would understand why I mentioned it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I hear ya Sanjuro and maybe at some point in time the larger Wing Chun community can sit together to create such an accepted platform to compete with eachother, like all the other arts seem to have.

Why not?
Egos and politics and the ridiculous " I have the real WC" aside, why not?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I agree with you , you right . That ' s the only way the truth will come out , is when you fight with wing chun . Other than that how in hell are you really going to know about wing chun ? If you don ' t spar or test out wing chun ?

We all come in different sizes and shapes so therefore our wing chun hand techniques should be used in a way that will be workable for us , should the sutuation occur . And if people say that the stories of people like Ip Man or WSL are just stories , then we have to test it out ourselves . Then that way we can all unlock the secrets of wing chun .

And if WC is such a junk art then , why are people still learning WC from the guys who really learned from Ip Man or WSL thenselves . Look at Sifu Augustine Fong he makes WC work for him , he participates in kung fu tournaments when ever there is a tournament . His favorite technique chi sao . Other than that Joy I
don ' t want to put you in the spot but you would know about your sigung more than me , is your sigung fong really that good ? Because you trained under him yourself . Even on this WC thread people still want to learn WC from David Peterson , so that ' s why his Wc seminar is still posted . If WC did ' nt work , but people are still learning from Ip Mans' or WSL students , then it means one thing , they found out how to make it work for them . People began to be open minded and really experimented with the WC techniques themselves , analyzed it and figured out a way to make it work .

WC is NOT a junk art,it is an excellent art.
It just has to be trained like any other FIGHTING system.
None of this silly "no fighting till you are good enough", or none of this pointless "too deadly" crap and none of this "you can't compete" crap.
WC is NOT inferior to any of the styles that can and do fight and win.
Alan Orr has shown that.
WC is not inferior to boxing or MT or any other system in which its practioner fight as soon as they are willing to.
Anytime I hear some WC "master" suggest that it takes YEARS to be able to use WC in a fight it makes me cringe because that person just openly admitted that WC is INFERIOR to any other system in which a practitioner can fight in LESS time.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Maybe all that fighting that you do has resulted in one too many blows to the head :p

prearranged partner drills have always been used by every martial art on the planet as a way of teaching concepts and applications of techniques. Partner A provides stimulus Y and you react by X. It has a natural and useful place in the learning process before introducing more degrees of freedom on both sides until finally you end up with either chi sau or sparring or both. Its not just for beginners either before I get accused of saying that, polishing individual building blocks by repetition over the years is a necessary part of continuous improvement.

Actually it's not and creates horrific habits and while it CAN be a tool for the very novice, it should be discarded as soon as the novice has gotten over his "fear" of getting hit.
Need I point out all the very effective combat systems that do NOT use them?
Need I point out that in an actual fight NOTHING like what happens in a pre-arranged routine ever happens?

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=lance;1169785] Look at Sifu Augustine Fong he makes WC work for him , he participates in kung fu tournaments when ever there is a tournament . His favorite technique chi sao . Other than that Joy I
don ' t want to put you in the spot but you would know about your sigung more than me , is your sigung fong really that good ? Because you trained under him yourself .
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fong is my sifu not my sigung.
What can I say.His understanding of wing chun is as good as it gets. And I have met with quite a few of Ip man's top students...plus from the next generation as well. And in his time he has fought as well.
He learned from Ho Kam Ming who spent as much training time with Ip man as anyone and (Ho)regularly did chi sao with Ip man himself.And has produced good fighters. And Fong sifu keeps on evolving.
Many of his students have fought- not just practiced with other WC people. I have top quality si hings and top quality regular practicing brothers. I am not referring to the occasional students.
One of the things that attracted me to wing chun is to put the fighting that I had done in perspective. Why something works and how to make those things even better. And I still work out with people testing wc against things that are not wc. WC is a gateway not the only one- but a very unique one.
I have tested things in order to know of their effectiveness-not for the popcorn and peanut gallery but for myself.One ultimately takes care of one self.(Self defense)
As I have said before there are many ways to fight.Each fight is an unique event.

Lots of people who learn wing chun IMO have had poor instruction and many would be better off doing something else that they understand better.

I agree and disagree with Sanjuro on fighting.Of course theory is not enough- one needs to know what works. But fighting involves unique events- each one has unique details. Reverse engineering from fighting is not enough. Top quality boxers, grapple-rs etc also have had good coaching.

Answering your question-trying not to rant.

joy chaudhuri

[sanjuro_ronin]

I agree and disagree with Sanjuro on fighting.Of course theory is not enough- one needs to know what works. But fighting involves unique events- each one has unique details. Reverse engineering from fighting is not enough. Top quality boxers, grapple-rs etc also have had good coaching.
Oh I agree Joy, 100%.
All the fighting in the world can't help you if you don't understand what is going on, why what worked and what didn't.
You need a good coach to help you fill in those pieces ( a coach that has been there and done that too of course).
Many times you (as a student) MAY be able to get away with less testing because you have a coach that HAS tested and tested a lot.
BUT just because what he does works for HIM is no guarantee that it will work for you.
The coaching element is crucial for sure.

[LoneTiger108]

WC is NOT a junk art,it is an excellent art.
It just has to be trained like any other FIGHTING system.
None of this silly "no fighting till you are good enough", or none of this pointless "too deadly" crap and none of this "you can't compete" crap.
WC is NOT inferior to any of the styles that can and do fight and win.
Alan Orr has shown that.
WC is not inferior to boxing or MT or any other system in which its practioner fight as soon as they are willing to.
Anytime I hear some WC "master" suggest that it takes YEARS to be able to use WC in a fight it makes me cringe because that person just openly admitted that WC is INFERIOR to any other system in which a practitioner can fight in LESS time.

All kudos to you for saying what you think about Wing Chun but remind me again who you learnt from and if you teach Wing Chun?

In other words, what experience have you had taking Wing Chun students to this level of competition? What sparring champions of Wing Chun have you coached?

I only asked, because I have always been under the impression that you were not a Wing Chun student, yet here you are telling us all what it's supposed to be about! Not that I have an issue with that coz some/most of what you say is spot on, but I'm just wondering.

And on the Wing Chun Competition note and why I think it will never happen? That's a whole other thread...

[Vajramusti]

Oh I agree Joy, 100%.
All the fighting in the world can't help you if you don't understand what is going on, why what worked and what didn't.
You need a good coach to help you fill in those pieces ( a coach that has been there and done that too of course).
Many times you (as a student) MAY be able to get away with less testing because you have a coach that HAS tested and tested a lot.
BUT just because what he does works for HIM is no guarantee that it will work for you.
The coaching element is crucial for sure.
--------------------------------
Agree:A coach or sifu cannot fight for you(universal you) and name dropping from your line does not do it either.

joy

[LoneTiger108]

--------------------------------
Agree:A coach or sifu cannot fight for you(universal you) and name dropping from your line does not do it either.

joy

I see what you're saying here Joy. And I will try and take on that little gem of advice.

[CFT]

You could say it was name dropping, but Spencer is using a specific name to illustrate his point that his (his lineage's) training methods work. Mr Cheng's reputation precedes him.

[sanjuro_ronin]

All kudos to you for saying what you think about Wing Chun but remind me again who you learnt from and if you teach Wing Chun?

In other words, what experience have you had taking Wing Chun students to this level of competition? What sparring champions of Wing Chun have you coached?

I only asked, because I have always been under the impression that you were not a Wing Chun student, yet here you are telling us all what it's supposed to be about! Not that I have an issue with that coz some/most of what you say is spot on, but I'm just wondering.

And on the Wing Chun Competition note and why I think it will never happen? That's a whole other thread...

Moy Yat WC under Nelson Chan and Sunny Tang.
I have NOT coached anyone in WC, nor would I and I do NOT teach WC nor would I.
My advice is for MA in general an din this case, WC in particular.
If my advice makes sense because it is CORRECT then who I learned from and even how good I am is irrelevant, unless you subscribe to the "argument from authority", do you?
I give advice NOT based on being a WC person ( fighter or teacher or current practioner), I give advice based on over 30 years of doing MA AND FIGHTING with MA and VS other MA ( many of them WC practioenrs).
It is advice based on experience and advice based on personal knowledge and I never claim it to be any more or any less than that.

Take the advice for what it is or ignore it, it's a free world.

[LoneTiger108]

You could say it was name dropping, but Spencer is using a specific name to illustrate his point that his (his lineage's) training methods work. Mr Cheng's reputation precedes him.

Thanks Chee. I thought I was simply highlighting how long ago actually some of my lineage already mixed it up with many other leading Martial Artists of the time.

[wingchunIan]

Actually it's not and creates horrific habits and while it CAN be a tool for the very novice, it should be discarded as soon as the novice has gotten over his "fear" of getting hit.
[QUOTE]Need I point out all the very effective combat systems that do NOT use them? such as? and don't say boxing, MT or MMA because they all have two man drills its just one happens to holding a pair of focus mitts and we call him a pad man

Need I point out that in an actual fight NOTHING like what happens in a pre-arranged routine ever happens? Actually everything that happens in a fight can be replicated in a two man drill. If you do the exercises with a closed mind and think only that the real fight will be exactly as it is in the prearranged version then you are correct there is no transfer unless you happen to be attacked by a very obliging opponent. If however you accept the two man routines for what they are, and learn the lessons that they are intended to teach / practise the skills and reactions that they are intended to sharpen with an open mind then they are invaluable exercises.

[wingchunIan]

WC is NOT a junk art,it is an excellent art.
It just has to be trained like any other FIGHTING system.
None of this silly "no fighting till you are good enough", or none of this pointless "too deadly" crap and none of this "you can't compete" crap.
WC is NOT inferior to any of the styles that can and do fight and win.
Alan Orr has shown that.
WC is not inferior to boxing or MT or any other system in which its practioner fight as soon as they are willing to.
Anytime I hear some WC "master" suggest that it takes YEARS to be able to use WC in a fight it makes me cringe because that person just openly admitted that WC is INFERIOR to any other system in which a practitioner can fight in LESS time.

Anybody can fight the minute they walk through the door, but will they use Wing Chun? People grow up watching boxing (both as a sport and in films) and grabbing hold of people is a natural fighting instinct so sticking two totally untrained people in a ring / cage will give you a fight that given the right rules can be passed off as boxing or mma. Because I love martial arts and contact sports I will watch anything and the amount of novice and intermediate level fights I've seen in rings and cages where the fighters couldn't show any skill in their claimed sport / art and just wailed around hoping to catch the opponent before they get caught themselves is endless. It teaches people nothing and only serves to provide a spectacle for those outside the ring.
Developing Wing Chun skills takes time, the level of those skills needed to fight depends upon the opponent and the size of the practitioner. Does it make an art inferior because it takes longer to be proficient, if the skills learned can then be used to overcome physical limitations and remain effective long into old age while the more quickly learned skills fade with physical prowess and age?

[Vajramusti]

You could say it was name dropping, but Spencer is using a specific name to illustrate his point that his (his lineage's) training methods work. Mr Cheng's reputation precedes him.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Understood.

joy

[Wayfaring]

Anybody can fight the minute they walk through the door, but will they use Wing Chun? People grow up watching boxing (both as a sport and in films) and grabbing hold of people is a natural fighting instinct so sticking two totally untrained people in a ring / cage will give you a fight that given the right rules can be passed off as boxing or mma. Because I love martial arts and contact sports I will watch anything and the amount of novice and intermediate level fights I've seen in rings and cages where the fighters couldn't show any skill in their claimed sport / art and just wailed around hoping to catch the opponent before they get caught themselves is endless. It teaches people nothing and only serves to provide a spectacle for those outside the ring.
Developing Wing Chun skills takes time, the level of those skills needed to fight depends upon the opponent and the size of the practitioner. Does it make an art inferior because it takes longer to be proficient, if the skills learned can then be used to overcome physical limitations and remain effective long into old age while the more quickly learned skills fade with physical prowess and age?

I don't know - sometimes with this whole discussion I think we need to put some classifications of people up to break things down adequately. Groups like:

1) Pro Fighters - want to make a living fighting
2) Amateur Fighters/Competitors - aspiring pro or skilled hobbyist
3) Sifus - want to make a living teaching or coaching
4) Aspiring Sifus - same but not at that level yet
5) Hobbyist - those studying martial arts outside of work for purposes of health and fitness, self-defense, other esoteric reasons.

Now yes, sparring and fighting can help increase the goals of all 5 groups of people. But all are not the same, do not have the same amount of time and resources to build skill levels.

On this forum, the vast majority of posters are hobbyists. There are some forays into people being in the #2 category - amateur fighters/competitors, but mostly people on this forum do not compete. There are also a number of #3 and #4's - sifus / aspiring sifus. In wing chun in general there seems to be more of the aspiring sifu group than anything else. Small class sizes, high theory, lineage and culture basis. I would classify almost all on this forum in the #4 +#5 combination - as making a living and teaching or trying to teach. There's nothing wrong with that, and many well-known sifus are in that category of #3 +#5 - etc.

Why is this important to highlight, especially when discussing fighting skills? Well, each group has different goals and resource availability. All groups want to develop and/or teach fighting skills - that's the same. The pro fighters are working 2-3x / day on developing skill and conditioning. Amateurs - 1-2x / day. The rest vary - sifus probably work in the 1x - 2x / day range - aspiring and hobbyists - less - maybe 2-3x / wk.

As a result, each group needs to have a little bit different goals they want to develop from fighting as well as a healthy respect towards what is available to develop. Human nature being what it is, typically the #3 and #4's like to tend to gravitate towards working in smaller groups where they can be the big fish in the small pond.

So what are realistic goals regarding fighting skills with the different groups?

#1 - Titles, belts, fight record, $$$, etc.
#2 - Titles, belts, fight record, trophies, medals, etc.
#3 - Students in #1,#2 category - acclaim, skill (how measured?), $$$, profession
#4 - Good small group of students to grow into #3
#5 - Self-defense confidence, conditioning, stress-relief, health, successful measurement against other groups.

With this there really has to be a realistic outlook developed as to what people are striving for. Delusion would tell you that although you're in the #5 category, because of "secret true WCK" you could easily defeat someone in the #1 category like Anderson Silva or GSP at the top. We should avoid delusion - it's not healthy. Of course that's not glamorous. I mean even in the movies the Ip Man movie was all about a #3 category sifu (Ip Man) fighting a #1 category pro boxer.

So what should we do as WCK practitioners that are in the #4 and #5 categories as far as fighting skills? IMO the first step is to develop being comfortable in fighting scenarios. For hobbyists this absolutely is going to involve protective gear, drills to restrict movement, short time periods (3 min max live sparring), and good oversight. Hobbyists need to learn to be comfortable and controlled in a live environment. This will not only help in self-defense situations where there are similar aspects to a live sparring environment, but also will prepare the hobbyist for being able to work with some of the higher level groups.

People with no experience sparring who get in there with a self-defence type attitude are the most dangerous. Adrenaline levels push them to go all out with less control. If they are sparring with a #1/#2 category athlete then it's almost like the athlete needs to hurt the hobbyist to stay protected from injury. That is not a good scenario all around. It's better to develop comfortability and control so that all different groups can work together and obtain benefit from it.

The biggest problem I see with WCK people is the #4/#5 category with the big fish in the little pond syndrome. To get beyond that you are going to have to get outside your own little group and get some interaction with #1/#2 category people. The suggestions or keys I have for this is 1) Be polite and friendly 2) Be in control (have your guys get some experience with free movement fighting) 3) Develop some cross-school/club relationships to foster that kind of training scenario.

To me that is the secret of true WCK and that secret remains the same for all types of martial arts - the training paradigm. How you train = your future.

[Wayfaring]

In other words, what experience have you had taking Wing Chun students to this level of competition? What sparring champions of Wing Chun have you coached?


What is a "sparring champion of Wing Chun"?

Other than the sporadic and various "chi sau competitions" which IMO are sanda with a fixed start point, what competitions are you talking about?

[Frost]

Anybody can fight the minute they walk through the door, but will they use Wing Chun? People grow up watching boxing (both as a sport and in films) and grabbing hold of people is a natural fighting instinct so sticking two totally untrained people in a ring / cage will give you a fight that given the right rules can be passed off as boxing or mma. Because I love martial arts and contact sports I will watch anything and the amount of novice and intermediate level fights I've seen in rings and cages where the fighters couldn't show any skill in their claimed sport / art and just wailed around hoping to catch the opponent before they get caught themselves is endless. It teaches people nothing and only serves to provide a spectacle for those outside the ring.
Developing Wing Chun skills takes time, the level of those skills needed to fight depends upon the opponent and the size of the practitioner. Does it make an art inferior because it takes longer to be proficient, if the skills learned can then be used to overcome physical limitations and remain effective long into old age while the more quickly learned skills fade with physical prowess and age?

lol i love it when people who have not competed or who dont train with guys that compete on a regular basis pass judgement on how skill full they look when fighting full contact, if you tried it the first time you stepped in the cage you might be amazed on how bad you can look when the other guy is trying to take your head off and not holding back

and your second point has me confused i thought the whole idea behind wing chun was its a streamlined fighting system that doesnt take long to become good at?:confused:

Finally as for the whole "the skills take longer to learn but stay with you into old age" arguement it simply doesnt make sense:
if a young skilled fighter cant make something work, are we really to believe an older slower person will make them work...of course no one can actually point to any examples of this but the myth still persists

[wingchunIan]

[QUOTE]lol i love it when people who have not competed or who dont train with guys that compete on a regular basis pass judgement on how skill full they look when fighting full contact, if you tried it the first time you stepped in the cage you might be amazed on how bad you can look when the other guy is trying to take your head off and not holding back Actually I trained MT for many years and had enough fights in the ring to know exactly what its like to fight in front of crowds with a man in front of you trying to take your head off. Was I a champion? no far from it (very far from it in fact I lost more than I won) but I was fortunate enough to have a trainer who believed in technical competence before entering fighters into matches unlike many others who seem to think that two out of condition guys swinging wildly at each other in a vain hope of hitting the other is good sport.


and your second point has me confused i thought the whole idea behind wing chun was its a streamlined fighting system that doesnt take long to become good at?:confused: WC is easy to become proficient in to a level that can be useful against your average Joe Bloggs but If you've ever taught anyone WC then you would know that the punching method is not natural to most people and most folks can hit a pad far harder if they try to immitate boxing strikes than WC strikes when they walk in fresh off the street. The tendancy to over commit and tense up is something that needs to be overcome to be able to fight effectively with WC whithout resorting to slugging it out.


Finally as for the whole "the skills take longer to learn but stay with you into old age" arguement it simply doesnt make sense:
if a young skilled fighter cant make something work, are we really to believe an older slower person will make them work...of course no one can actually point to any examples of this but the myth still persists Nope not a myth. I am now approaching 40. I hit far harder now than when I started WC despite being over a decade younger and being fresh from MT. I also have far better footwork, I'm faster and my all round WC is improving day by day. I am measurably better now than I was 6 months ago. If your only reality is that as you get older you get worse then I feel for you. I know guys in HK in their 60s and 70s who regularly amaze me with their prowess.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Frost;1169859] Actually I trained MT for many years and had enough fights in the ring to know exactly what its like to fight in front of crowds with a man in front of you trying to take your head off. Was I a champion? no far from it (very far from it in fact I lost more than I won) but I was fortunate enough to have a trainer who believed in technical competence before entering fighters into matches unlike many others who seem to think that two out of condition guys swinging wildly at each other in a vain hope of hitting the other is good sport.

WC is easy to become proficient in to a level that can be useful against your average Joe Bloggs but If you've ever taught anyone WC then you would know that the punching method is not natural to most people and most folks can hit a pad far harder if they try to immitate boxing strikes than WC strikes when they walk in fresh off the street. The tendancy to over commit and tense up is something that needs to be overcome to be able to fight effectively with WC whithout resorting to slugging it out.

Nope not a myth. I am now approaching 40. I hit far harder now than when I started WC despite being over a decade younger and being fresh from MT. I also have far better footwork, I'm faster and my all round WC is improving day by day. I am measurably better now than I was 6 months ago. If your only reality is that as you get older you get worse then I feel for you. I know guys in HK in their 60s and 70s who regularly amaze me with their prowess.
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Good points, WingchunIan.

joy chaudhuri

[Wayfaring]

One of the things I was highlighting with a few others is the training aspect of WCK with sparring. I keep coming back to this because my perception is people talk around this and don't do it, and there are all sorts of fear perceptions involved.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEgMqIo3MdE

I'm highlighting this video as an example of good relaxed initial sparring with outside skillsets. No these guys aren't tearing it up with skill and prowess. They also aren't swinging for fences and gassing out in 30 seconds. What they are doing is practicing distance control, footwork, facing, angles and hand positions. One is WCK background - the other has typical boxing footwork.

IMO this type if thing is a good regular practice to introduce proper drilling and sparring. This is a great level to introduce your beginner students to. Make that your norm and then people after doing this type of thing for 6 months or so will adjust and take it up to the next level - being comfortable with rounds, contact, footwork, etc.

Age doesn't come into play as someone 15 to 75 could participate in this type of exercise.

People who train in this fashion are more relaxed under the pressures of a full-on fight or self-defense scenario. They can think more clearly, evaluate threats, execute strategy, run, or a hundred other options that aren't there when you are frozen from not being used to the kind of violence a self-defense scenario can bring.

I say start here in your training and build a fighting future for yourself plus students.

[lance]

WC is NOT a junk art,it is an excellent art.
It just has to be trained like any other FIGHTING system.
None of this silly "no fighting till you are good enough", or none of this pointless "too deadly" crap and none of this "you can't compete" crap.
WC is NOT inferior to any of the styles that can and do fight and win.
Alan Orr has shown that.
WC is not inferior to boxing or MT or any other system in which its practioner fight as soon as they are willing to.
Anytime I hear some WC "master" suggest that it takes YEARS to be able to use WC in a fight it makes me cringe because that person just openly admitted that WC is INFERIOR to any other system in which a practitioner can fight in LESS time.


To make things clear I was ' nt saying that WC is a junk art , all I was saying is that if wing chun was a junk art the why is people still learning wing chun from David Peterson or Sifu Augustine fong ? People found a way to make wing chun work for them , that ' s all I was saying . Excuse me if I was ' nt clarifying things in my thread . But wing chun is my main art .

The main reason why I wrote this thread was because people say that Ip Man and WSL was only legends not for real . But I do know that there are alot of wing chun sifus out there , that is teaching there art . So if it was only legends then we have to use wing chun in any situation to see if it ' ll work or not . That ' s the reason why I bought up joy and his Sifu Augustine Fong . You said , that any time you hear wing chun masters saying that it takes years to use wing chun in a fight it makes you cringe . Well , I disagree with these sifus too . But I do agree that you need to test it out , and to make the art work for you . Just like you you want to back up wing chun too right ? The same thing I ' m doing in my own way . Not to critiscize your thread .

Now joy has answered my questions on his Sifu Augustine Fong , so now you know that Sifu fong is good , including all those people who has learned and trained under him .
If I did ' nt mention people like Sifu David Peterson or Sifu Austine Fong who are real people and really practicing wing chun and teaching themselves . People will know that wing chun is still being taught yet . And I know that wing chun can work and defeat other systems of martial arts too , depending on the practioner themselves .

[lance]

[QUOTE=lance;1169785] Look at Sifu Augustine Fong he makes WC work for him , he participates in kung fu tournaments when ever there is a tournament . His favorite technique chi sao . Other than that Joy I
don ' t want to put you in the spot but you would know about your sigung more than me , is your sigung fong really that good ? Because you trained under him yourself .
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Fong is my sifu not my sigung.
What can I say.His understanding of wing chun is as good as it gets. And I have met with quite a few of Ip man's top students...plus from the next generation as well. And in his time he has fought as well.
He learned from Ho Kam Ming who spent as much training time with Ip man as anyone and (Ho)regularly did chi sao with Ip man himself.And has produced good fighters. And Fong sifu keeps on evolving.
Many of his students have fought- not just practiced with other WC people. I have top quality si hings and top quality regular practicing brothers. I am not referring to the occasional students.
One of the things that attracted me to wing chun is to put the fighting that I had done in perspective. Why something works and how to make those things even better. And I still work out with people testing wc against things that are not wc. WC is a gateway not the only one- but a very unique one.
I have tested things in order to know of their effectiveness-not for the popcorn and peanut gallery but for myself.One ultimately takes care of one self.(Self defense)
As I have said before there are many ways to fight.Each fight is an unique event.

Lots of people who learn wing chun IMO have had poor instruction and many would be better off doing something else that they understand better.

I agree and disagree with Sanjuro on fighting.Of course theory is not enough- one needs to know what works. But fighting involves unique events- each one has unique details. Reverse engineering from fighting is not enough. Top quality boxers, grapple-rs etc also have had good coaching.

Answering your question-trying not to rant.

joy chaudhuri

joy , the reason why I mentioned your Sifu Austine Fong is because people say that Wing chun and Ip Man , WSL is only legends . It ' s like saying that wing chun can ' t survive in this world because it ' s make believe . I like wing chun too myself , and I do know that Sifu Peterson and Sifu fong is for real too and still teaching and practicing the wing chun art . But thanks for replying to my thread topic on your Sifu Austine fong , now that you ' ve answered my questions in Sifu fong himself , I always thought Sifu Fong was that good including all those people who learned under him like you . Sifu fong I always see him in wing chun demo at one of those kung fu tournaments and exhibitions in San franscisco , and when he does chi sao demo he can hit his opponent couple of times at certain parts of the upper body like the side of the neck , palm strike his opponents face or chest area , get into using other wing chun techniques too . I was just recognizing Sifu fong as a real life wing chun Sifu . Just like all other wing chun practioners in general , not practicing or teaching BS martial art , as people mentioned on this thread concerning wing chun . they just don ' t know how to make it work , because they ' re not open minded enough . ! Oh Yeah ! Ho Kam Ming Sifu too , who also made it happen too , excuse me joy I ' m not that good on chinese terminology too when it comes to respecting kung fu sifus or Sigungs .

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1169803]

joy , the reason why I mentioned your Sifu Austine Fong is because people say that Wing chun and Ip Man , WSL is only legends . It ' s like saying that wing chun can ' t survive in this world because it ' s make believe . I like wing chun too myself , and I do know that Sifu Peterson and Sifu fong is for real too and still teaching and practicing the wing chun art . But thanks for replying to my thread topic on your Sifu Austine fong , now that you ' ve answered my questions in Sifu fong himself , I always thought Sifu Fong was that good including all those people who learned under him like you . Sifu fong I always see him in wing chun demo at one of those kung fu tournaments and exhibitions in San franscisco , and when he does chi sao demo he can hit his opponent couple of times at certain parts of the upper body like the side of the neck , palm strike his opponents face or chest area , get into using other wing chun techniques too . I was just recognizing Sifu fong as a real life wing chun Sifu . Just like all other wing chun practioners in general , not practicing or teaching BS martial art , as people mentioned on this thread concerning wing chun . they just don ' t know how to make it work , because they ' re not open minded enough . ! Oh Yeah ! Ho Kam Ming Sifu too , who also made it happen too , excuse me joy I ' m not that good on chinese terminology too when it comes to respecting kung fu sifus or Sigungs .
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Hi Lance- Thanks for your comments. Wing chun is a great art- it depends on good sifus and good students. It has spread too fast and too unevenly IMO.

On Mother's day-- the legendary Ng Mui was a great mother to a great art.

I like to investigate things that I am curious about...I don't rely on under-informed opinions.And I don't pay much attention to internet forum noise. I don't criticize other folk's choice of style or styles.I have never regretted starting on the wing chun path and testing the way.

Fong Sifu and Ho Sigung are what you are calling real life sifus. And they have taught some very good students.If Ip man had not come to HongKong a great version of a great art would have been lost. Good wishes, joy

[LoneTiger108]

My Sifu would say that I put some secrets to our practise out onto the Lei Tai stage at the weekends Martial Arts Show!! But no. I just shared a few key methods of our approach to training Wing Chun...

7018

It was great t share the limelight with a few of the top players in Chinese Martial Arts in the UK and HK.