Regarding pronunciation & a certain character

[LFJ]

The pronunciation of the characters 'to seek' 寻 and 'to sink' 沉 in the Cantonese dictionary are identical, tone and all, both pronounced chàhm (chum). There are even different views between lineages on which is the proper character to be used in the name of the second set Chàhm-kiùh 寻/沉桥 because they sound identical.

However, when the character 'to sink' 沉 is used to name the deflective action chàhm-sáu 沉手, I often hear people (at least westerners, and this may be the reason) pronounce it as 'jaam' which is actually the pronunciation of another deflective action, 'to chop' jáam-sáu 斩手. This is the top half of the two-arm action of gāang-sáu 耕手 in isolation, which brings up another question; whether it is proper or common among native Cantonese speakers to not pronounce the final G here, as most people in WC pronounce it as gāan-sáu.

As for the character I'm looking for, it is the Fatsaan dialect term for the deflective action commonly called 'pressing hand' gahm-sáu (gum) 揿手 with a similar meaning. It is the preferred term in WSLVT and often phonetically spelled by Sifu David Peterson as 'soh sau'. The only character close to that meaning that I can find in the dictionary is só 锁 meaning 'to lock', but I'm not convinced that is the one.

I was just in Hong Kong two days ago and forgot to ask there. :rolleyes:

Any comment, confirmation, or correction on these would be appreciated!

[k gledhill]

Jum is to sink the elbow in and forwards to attack and defend the inside gate.

Chum is to find/seek a way to bridge/cross over to/through a space between you.

[Lee Chiang Po]

Why not just forget about the chinese charactors and use plain English or whatever is your first language rather than go through all the confusion of translating what might and might not be close to accurate? If you spoke Canton every day and lived where it was the only language spoken, It might make some difference, but it can be far to obscure. With English you can leave no room for interpretation.

[Phil Redmond]

Jum is to sink the elbow in and forwards to attack and defend the inside gate.

Chum is to find/seek a way to bridge/cross over to/through a space between you.
Actually Jum IS Chum. Westerners say Jum for some reason.

[LFJ]

Jum is to sink the elbow in and forwards to attack and defend the inside gate.

Chum is to find/seek a way to bridge/cross over to/through a space between you.Actually Jum IS Chum. Westerners say Jum for some reason.

I know what the characters mean, and the concepts associated with them. But this topic is "regarding pronunciation", not meaning. PR knows exactly what I'm saying.

Both characters 'to sink' 沉 and 'to seek' 寻 have the exact same pronunciation in the Cantonese dictionary. Even the tone is the same. They have an identical pronunciation of chàhm (chum). Neither of them is 'jum' or 'jaam'.

Just wondering if this is only a westerner's mispronunciation problem, due to the use of non-standard phonetic spelling perhaps.

[LFJ]

Lee,

You as well as Kevin missed the topic and question here. It's not about meaning, but pronunciation. It's not the meanings I have a problem with in most cases, being fluent in Mandarin and alright in Cantonese, but the pronunciation. I obviously have an interest in linguistics.

Besides I think it helps understand the concepts in WC. There are cases where the use of different terms between dialects have changed the meaning and in fact the way practitioners understand and apply the concepts of certain actions.

[k gledhill]

I am glad nobody argued the meaning, I leave the rest to you ;)

[CFT]

LFJ, there are actually 3 Cantonese pronunications for 沈:

http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/lexi-can/search.php?q=%A8H

1. Sum, a surname. e.g Lydia Shum (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=lydia%20sum&source=web&cd=1&sqi=2&ved=0CF0QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FLydia_S hum&ei=lgqpT6e8OY_CgAf6lPyrAQ&usg=AFQjCNG_nGLpWoA-k921-klGwXniC-ACUA&cad=rja)

2. Chum - sink/submerge
3. Jum/zum (alternate pronunciation of Chum)

[Phil Redmond]

I know what the characters mean, and the concepts associated with them. But this topic is "regarding pronunciation", not meaning. PR knows exactly what I'm saying.

Both characters 'to sink' 沉 and 'to seek' 寻 have the exact same pronunciation in the Cantonese dictionary. Even the tone is the same. They have an identical pronunciation of chàhm (chum). Neither of them is 'jum' or 'jaam'.

Just wondering if this is only a westerner's mispronunciation problem, due to the use of non-standard phonetic spelling perhaps.
That's a good question. I've always wondered the differences in tones as well. I was listening to two Cantonese speaker discussing Weng Chun and Wing Chun. One guy had the "write" the character for Weng in the palm of his hand with his fingers so the other guy knew what he was talking about. Him having to do that made me presume that they have the same tone but different characters. I wonder how many other characters are like that.

[LFJ]

LFJ, there are actually 3 Cantonese pronunications for 沈:

http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/lexi-can/search.php?q=%A8H

1. Sum, a surname. e.g Lydia Shum (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=lydia%20sum&source=web&cd=1&sqi=2&ved=0CF0QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FLydia_S hum&ei=lgqpT6e8OY_CgAf6lPyrAQ&usg=AFQjCNG_nGLpWoA-k921-klGwXniC-ACUA&cad=rja)

2. Chum - sink/submerge
3. Jum/zum (alternate pronunciation of Chum)

Well now, that's a different character than 沉. Although of same meaning, I haven't seen it used before. But I looked in a better dictionary for 沉 and there is indeed the alternate pronunciation of jahm (jum) for this character as well. Thanks for that!

I also looked in the better dictionary for 耕 and well, it's still gāang (or gāng) with the final -g sound in either case. No indication as to why it might be dropped unless it's just laziness in pronunciation that has caught on. Cantonese, particularly in HK, is full of that.

I still got nuttin' on which character "Soh" might be.

[LFJ]

That's a good question. I've always wondered the differences in tones as well. I was listening to two Cantonese speaker discussing Weng Chun and Wing Chun. One guy had the "write" the character for Weng in the palm of his hand with his fingers so the other guy knew what he was talking about. Him having to do that made me presume that they have the same tone but different characters. I wonder how many other characters are like that.

Both characters weng 永 and wing 咏 (詠) have the same pronunciation and tone of yǒng in Mandarin, but in Cantonese they have the same pronunciation of wing but different tones. The former is wíhng (low-rising) and the latter is wihng (low-level). So actually, they are two different characters with different tones (and meaning).

[LoneTiger108]

It's funny, but this thread kinda reminds me of one of my first subjects I attempted to cover when I joined the forum...

Nice to see the same faces responding :)

[CFT]

Well now, that's a different character than 沉. Although of same meaning, I haven't seen it used before.I think this is the print version of the same character.

[Phil Redmond]

Both characters weng 永 and wing 咏 (詠) have the same pronunciation and tone of yǒng in Mandarin, but in Cantonese they have the same pronunciation of wing but different tones. The former is wíhng (low-rising) and the latter is wihng (low-level). So actually, they are two different characters with different tones (and meaning).
By the 'h' you used I can see that you're using the Yale Romanization for low tones I learned in college.
I still wonder why one man had the draw the character in his palm if they both speak Cantonese. Thanks for the explanation.

[LFJ]

By the 'h' you used I can see that you're using the Yale Romanization for low tones I learned in college.

I much prefer the Yale Romanization for Cantonese. It actually makes sense, instead of having the J's don't sound like Y's.

Jyutping is to Cantonese as Wade-Giles is to Mandarin... completely illogical, unnecessarily confusing. :p


I still wonder why one man had the draw the character in his palm if they both speak Cantonese. Thanks for the explanation.

Are you sure of which person was drawing which character?

I would guess someone had to draw the Wing character and not the Weng character, because 永 (Weng) is a common character in everyday speech and the only "wing" with a low-rising tone in Cantonese. Still, if it wasn't understood it would be easily explained by just saying the common compound word wíhng-yúhn (永远/forever).

On the other hand, 咏 (詠/Wing) is much less common character and there are many wing's with a low-level tone, lending itself easily to confusion.

[TenTigers]

I still wonder why one man had the draw the character in his palm if they both speak Cantonese. Thanks for the explanation.
Cantonese speaking folks do that when the tone is identical.
I do that with my friend sometimes, and she says,
"Wait a minute, You don't even write Chinese! You just drew a smiley face in your hand!"
:D