Movement Science and Internal Power [Video]

[Eric Olson]

I've been trying to find this video for a while. It shows Taiji master Chen Xiang hooked up to all kind of fancy movement equipment at Stanford university:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HN88QIsMHqA

I think this kind of stuff could go a long way towards dispelling "internal" arts of mysticism. At its root, its really just about good body mechanics.

EO

[David Jamieson]

The mystic stuff is nonsense anyway.

Rational thought is all that is required to see that there is no way to be anything more than simply a human being.

I think we've moved beyond fairy tale antics and superstitious understanding. Those who haven't are on their own.

[pateticorecords]

Fight Science Kick Test (Capoeira, Karate, Muaythai & Taekwondo)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gw4EoWi5QSM

Sports Science: Kicking Power part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KjZegbUxZo

Fight Science - Qi Gong Tested
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEOSkqGUK-M

National Geographic Documentary Myths Logic Of Shaolin Kung Fu full documentary http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8F4l3TdoELc

[IronFist]

Proper body mechanics is not internal power.

Proper body mechanics just means you have good form and have been doing whatever it is you do for a while.

That "Qi Gong Tested" vid had nothing to do with qi. It was just physical conditioning and proper application of body mechanics, the same as every other "qigong" demonstration ever. They only mentioned "qi" because they want to seem like that Asian dude is mystical because audiences eat that stuff up.

[sanjuro_ronin]

So, when a trained athlete or even a performer does something it is "good mechanics" and skill but when someone professing to be an "internal Master" does the same thing it is qi?
Interesting...
So when a circus performer does a one finger handstand that is simply muscles and skill but when an "IMA" master does it, it is Qi ?
When a performer takes hard shots to the body or even a canon ball, it is what exactly? because if they were wearing a shaolin robe and called themselves an "IMA" master we know it would be QI !
:D

[pateticorecords]

Proper body mechanics is not internal power.

Proper body mechanics just means you have good form and have been doing whatever it is you do for a while.

That "Qi Gong Tested" vid had nothing to do with qi. It was just physical conditioning and proper application of body mechanics, the same as every other "qigong" demonstration ever. They only mentioned "qi" because they want to seem like that Asian dude is mystical because audiences eat that stuff up.

I only posted those for the science behind the movements and the body mechanics.

I believe that the disconnect with what is internal power comes from ancient beliefs that define them vs modern definitions.

Here is my example, have you ever heard the term he has "guts" what are they talking about? The intestines? Not really, "guts"=QI
When an archer or a sharp shooter shoot or release an arrow do they not release their breath? Breath Control=QI
When people get upset and they are told to breath and count to ten, doesn't it calm them slightly? This=QI
When people in distress find "super human" strength within themselves to survive when in normal circumstances they wouldn't be able to accomplish such feats is it "fake"? This too = QI

You can look at anything through a narrow scope and see only what you want to see or you can open you eyes and see the full picture:)

[IronFist]

Here is my example, have you ever heard the term he has "guts" what are they talking about? The intestines? Not really, "guts"=QI

"Guts" isn't qi.

"Guts" is intestinal fortitude (hence "guts") aka bravery/confidence.

For example:

"Do you have the guts to step into the ring against that champion boxer?"

We all know what happens when "qi masters" step into the ring.


When people in distress find "super human" strength within themselves to survive when in normal circumstances they wouldn't be able to accomplish such feats is it "fake"? This too = QI

False.

People in the situations you describe are using adrenaline and experiencing temporary central nervous system enhancements. It's not so much that they are getting stronger, but more that the body's natural safety systems are temporarily disabled, which is why they sometimes get injured in the process.

Can a mother in crisis lift a car off of her child? Sometimes.

Can her muscles, tendons, and ligaments tolerate the load? Probably not.

Your CNS has safety measures in place that limit available strength and flexibility to ensure that you don't hurt yourself when you move around throughout the day. Your muscles are capable of significantly more tension than what your body allows you to use, but your body thinks it would injure itself if you did so, so it limits your available strength.

Adrenaline released due to extreme situations can sometimes override these systems, hence people displaying random cases of "super human strength."


You can look at anything through a narrow scope and see only what you want to see or you can open you eyes and see the full picture:)

I prefer to use science.

[pateticorecords]

"Guts" isn't qi.

"Guts" is intestinal fortitude (hence "guts") aka bravery/confidence.

For example:

"Do you have the guts to step into the ring against that champion boxer?"

We all know what happens when "qi masters" step into the ring.



False.

People in the situations you describe are using adrenaline and experiencing temporary central nervous system enhancements. It's not so much that they are getting stronger, but more that the body's natural safety systems are temporarily disabled, which is why they sometimes get injured in the process.

Can a mother in crisis lift a car off of her child? Sometimes.

Can her muscles, tendons, and ligaments tolerate the load? Probably not.

Your CNS has safety measures in place that limit available strength and flexibility to ensure that you don't hurt yourself when you move around throughout the day. Your muscles are capable of significantly more tension than what your body allows you to use, but your body thinks it would injure itself if you did so, so it limits your available strength.

Adrenaline released due to extreme situations can sometimes override these systems, hence people displaying random cases of "super human strength."



I prefer to use science.

Still misunderstanding what I am saying here... what we scientifically call this or that the ancient cultures called something different that is all;)

Guts also can be nerve, audacity, or arousing or involving basic emotions:D

Some nice read on the so called strength related topic


Campenella, B., Mattacola, C., Kimura, I. "Effect of visual feedback and verbal encouragement on concentric quadriceps and hamstrings peak torque of males and females." Isokinetics and Exercise Science. 1 Jan. 2000, Volume 8: 1-6.

Extreme Fear: The Science of Your Mind in Danger by Jeff Wise


Fabing, H. "On Going Berserk: A Neurochemical Inquiry." Scientific Monthly. 1 Nov. 1956, Volume 83: 232.

Foote, P., Wilson, D. The Viking Achievement: The Society and Culture of Early Medieval Scandinavia. New York: St. Martin's Press, 1970. 285.

Friedman, H., Silver, R. Foundations of Health Psychology. New York: Oxford University Press, 2007.

Walker, A. "The Strength of Great Apes and the Speed of Humans." Current Anthropology. 1 Apr. 2009, Volume 50, Number 2: 229-234.

[IronFist]

None of that has anything to do with "internal power" and saying that "guts = qi" is categorically wrong.

[mooyingmantis]

"Guts" isn't qi.

"Guts" is intestinal fortitude (hence "guts") aka bravery/confidence.

For example:

"Do you have the guts to step into the ring against that champion boxer?"

We all know what happens when "qi masters" step into the ring.



False.

People in the situations you describe are using adrenaline and experiencing temporary central nervous system enhancements. It's not so much that they are getting stronger, but more that the body's natural safety systems are temporarily disabled, which is why they sometimes get injured in the process.

Can a mother in crisis lift a car off of her child? Sometimes.

Can her muscles, tendons, and ligaments tolerate the load? Probably not.

Your CNS has safety measures in place that limit available strength and flexibility to ensure that you don't hurt yourself when you move around throughout the day. Your muscles are capable of significantly more tension than what your body allows you to use, but your body thinks it would injure itself if you did so, so it limits your available strength.

Adrenaline released due to extreme situations can sometimes override these systems, hence people displaying random cases of "super human strength."



I prefer to use science.

This, FTW!!!!!!

[wenshu]

I prefer to use science.

You are insisting on an arbitrary definition of qi and then applauding yourself when you employ simple minded syllogisms to refute it.

That's not anything remotely approaching science.

[Scott R. Brown]

You are insisting on an arbitrary definition of qi and then applauding yourself when you employ simple minded syllogisms to refute it.

That's not anything remotely approaching science.

So rather than making simple minded criticisms yourself, how about providing a more comprehensive definition of Qi for us all and demonstrate its effectiveness.

If you can't or won't why post your un-necessary comment in the first place?

[Lee Chiang Po]

This entire concept has been in contravercy for a long time. For those that understand what Qi truely is, it is very difficult to explain it to those that refuse to acknowledge it. Not understanding, and refusing to attempt to understand it is where it is at this point.
Qi, or Chi, is real. It is not some mythical power only certain masters possess, but it is the strength of every body. It is the engine that runs you. It is the power source of the human body. Your energy does not ride about on your skin, on the outside of your body. It generates within your body, and it has a central generation point. It fuels the body and gives you the power to move and operate. You can actually focus this strength as well. It is nothing that every human cannot do. You just have to understand how it is done, and it is very simple. The problem is that even though some actually use this, they deny it's very existance. They just do not understand what it is, and they simply refuse to try to understand it.
If you did not possess this Qi, or Chi, you would fall into a limp pile of dead flesh.

[RenDaHai]

The whole internal external thing needs to be dispelled. There is no difference between internal and external MA.

But when it comes to Qi that is a different thing all together. One would have to have a good grasp of the Chinese language and culture and Chinese medicine to really understand the concept of the 'Qi' analogy. Qi is a scientific term, it is simply an ancient scientific term. Remember, 'Atom' is also an ancient scientific term who's definition has changed considerably through time. Qi is science from another culture. It doesn't describe anything magical, its just a different way of describing the human body as it is.

Why Qi has become a laughable thing in MA is not the problem with the concept, but the problem with the people who claim to be QiGong Masters, and the problem with the people who believe them.

[IronFist]

This entire concept has been in contravercy for a long time. For those that understand what Qi truely is, it is very difficult to explain it to those that refuse to acknowledge it. Not understanding, and refusing to attempt to understand it is where it is at this point.
Qi, or Chi, is real. It is not some mythical power only certain masters possess, but it is the strength of every body. It is the engine that runs you. It is the power source of the human body. Your energy does not ride about on your skin, on the outside of your body. It generates within your body, and it has a central generation point. It fuels the body and gives you the power to move and operate. You can actually focus this strength as well. It is nothing that every human cannot do. You just have to understand how it is done, and it is very simple. The problem is that even though some actually use this, they deny it's very existance. They just do not understand what it is, and they simply refuse to try to understand it.
If you did not possess this Qi, or Chi, you would fall into a limp pile of dead flesh.

If that is true, then like RenDaHai said, there is no difference between internal and external MA.

[IronFist]

And if there is no difference between internal and external MA, then what are those guys doing when they do "qi exercises" all day? Are they just wasting their time?

We've already shown that every single "qi force internal energy" technique, as in like "hold on, I have to do these special exercises to charge up my qi first (implying that without doing them, my qi would not be in the right place and I would not be able to perform the skill)" are really only physical conditioning, proper application of body mechanics and, when the performers are especially snake oily, sleight of hand and stage tricks.

Iron palm demos are either stage tricks (like breaking the brick on the edge of the step and lifting it slightly at the last second) or physical conditioning or body mechanics (smashing through a brick).

Physical conditioning is impressive. I don't know why people need to insist it's mystical energy.

Breaking the bottom brick is physics. You can do it with a hammer. In fact, there is a video of this on youtube. Hammers don't send qi through the top brick into the bottom brick. Anyone claiming they are breaking the bottom brick with qi is a snake oil salesman.

Iron body demos are either stage tricks blamed on qi (in order to seem mystical), such as the spear in the throat, or they are physical conditioning and body mechanics, such as the large man flexing every muscle in his body as his assistant hits him in the stomach with a sledge hammer.

Again, that type of conditioning is impressive. I don't know why people need to insist it's mystical energy that is protecting them when it really isn't. I can't take a sledgehammer blow to the stomach, can you? It's impressive. But it's not mystic qi internal energy.

No touch knockout stuff is a bunch of nonsense. We've all seen the videos where no touch knockout guys fight resisting opponents rather than their own students.

James Randi will give $1,000,000 to anyone who can do any of this stuff for real, and I believe there is also a guy in China who goes around disproving fakes.

Maybe there is an internal energy force that flows through us all. Maybe it can be manipulated. I've done standing qigong. I've felt some weird things. But no one has ever conclusively demonstrated that it has any martial application whatsoever, because everyone who tries is deceiving the audience when they are really using physical conditioning and applied body mechanics.

Internal guys: you don't get to say "qi is in everything therefore all arts are internal." The IMA community has specifically mentioned mystical qi power for decades. They want others to believe it but no one wants to prove it conclusively, however they don't mind using stage tricks to try and fool people into thinking it's real.

Which is cooler? Saying "check this guy out, he can take a sledgehammer blow to the stomach," or saying "check this guy out, first he will do his qi exercises to build up his qi, he is focusing right now on moving his qi to his stomach where it will protect him from the blow" and having a guy do fancy movements and breathing techniques for a while so everyone thinks he is doing something mystical? Obviously the second one, because it makes people think you have mystic power. And guess what? That's how most people do it, because they are scam artists and are intentionally deceiving the audience.

Standing in place for 30 minutes every day doesn't make you hit harder nor does it make you absorb blows better.

Maybe somewhere along the line "qi" got mistranslated, but there is definitely a group of people who want the world to believe they have mystical power. Even some of the monks are in on this nonsense. I've seen them on History Channel shows.

Shame on them. Monks are supposed to be all about truth, not snake oil.

[Hebrew Hammer]

When do we get to talk about Qi Balls?? Mine are killing me...

[pateticorecords]

None of that has anything to do with "internal power" and saying that "guts = qi" is categorically wrong.

Oh, just because this is what you believe it makes it irrefutable, correct? Not much different than those that believe in "internal power" or scientific theories that have been proven wrong yet the scientific establishment will fight it tooth and nail because what they thought they knew is not.

But then again my friend you are not understanding what I am saying, I am on the same page as you to certain extent... I don't believe in Qi projection, harnessing Qi to damage your opponent, or using Qi to receive blows or break things...blah blah blah... that is suggestive in nature not much different than religious people that believe in something and fall into trances and what not.

The concept of Qi reaches further than just the "magic" or the paranormal side of it. It was utilize to explain many physiological functions and expressions of the body, it was all encompassing.

I will use a different example, in ancient times materials that ignited and caused explosions were considered "magic", but in reality it was science not magic. Others worshiped the sun because it gave life, not knowing the science behind it.

All I am trying to say it that they called it one thing and we know call it many different things, why? because we have science and methods to prove things that couldn't be proven before.

One last thing, You can only believe purely in science when all theories are LAWS, not theories. Until then, science is just like religion;)

[RenDaHai]

@Iron fist

I agree that we should not split MA along the lines of Internal and external.

But there is some division between the types of MA in China. It has become External and internal recently, but it has been split on all the wrong ideas.

In old terms there were 3 typical types of Chinese Martial Arts. Military, Civilian and Spiritual. Civilian arts were for general fighting and for police and for health. Military arts were to kill the opponent as swiftly as possible and for nothing else. Spiritual Martial arts were much more complex and contained techniques from the others but the goal of training was different.

I think what is confusing you is this 'spiritual' martial art. The goal of training is self knowledge and wisdom. QiGong is to help with deep meditation and introspection. The QiGong aspect is to help with meditation not with the combat. That wierd feeling you got while standing, that is what these people are doing all day when they practice QiGong. That is the higher goal than combat for them. If you are training a military MA then there is no need for QiGong on the outset. However the warrior and his spirituality are intimately linked within most societies.

When introspecting and meditating it is useful to have some system of logic like Qi which describes the connection between the mind and the body.

SongShan Shaolin is the perfect example of the spiritual MA. XuanWu Wudang is also. Xing yi is a military Martial art. To call Shaolin external and XingYi internal as people do these days is frankly ridiculous.

[ShaolinDan]

This is like a monthly thing for you huh, IF? :)

[wenshu]

So rather than making simple minded criticisms yourself, how about providing a more comprehensive definition of Qi for us all and demonstrate its effectiveness.

If you can't or won't why post your un-necessary comment in the first place?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negentropy

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/031/783/obamam-lol-y-u-mad-tho.jpg

[sanjuro_ronin]

If there is a distinction to be made in MA it should be:
Fighting systems
Non-fighting systems

The whole "Qi" thing is just silly really, if people want to believe there is some "inner power" that they are cultivating that will make them uber-men, that's their problem.
The proof of any system or any practitioner of a MA is in the pudding and the pudding is spelled F I G H T.
Of course is a person is practicing a non-combative style or MA or even a combative one but for non-combative purposes then they can claim whatever they want OTHER than being "combative".

[IronFist]

None of that has anything to do with "internal power" and saying that "guts = qi" is categorically wrong.

Oh, just because this is what you believe it makes it irrefutable, correct?

It has nothing to do what what I believe and has everything to do with the definition of "guts" as you used it:

http://i.imgur.com/ax0DN.jpg

Source:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/guts?s=t

It has nothing to do with qi, internal energy, or anything mystical at all. It is simply slang for "courage."

(granted, I will admit that some qigong guys have courage -- especially the no touch knockout guys who step into the ring with real fighters)


The concept of Qi reaches further than just the "magic" or the paranormal side of it. It was utilize to explain many physiological functions and expressions of the body, it was all encompassing.

I will use a different example, in ancient times materials that ignited and caused explosions were considered "magic", but in reality it was science not magic. Others worshiped the sun because it gave life, not knowing the science behind it.

Give a conclusive example or demonstration of qi in a martial context. It needs to be something that is possibly only because of specific qi training that cannot be replicated by proper body mechanics and physical conditioning, nor by someone who has not done any qigong training.

Iron palm is not.

Breaking the bottom brick is not.

Iron body is not.

What is?

[IronFist]

If there is a distinction to be made in MA it should be:
Fighting systems
Non-fighting systems

That may be a better classification.

But what about the fighting systems that spend time doing qi stuff? Like a Hung Gar school or something. That's a pretty "external" fighting style, yet they have the iron wire form which I believe is for qi development.


The whole "Qi" thing is just silly really, if people want to believe there is some "inner power" that they are cultivating that will make them uber-men, that's their problem.
The proof of any system or any practitioner of a MA is in the pudding and the pudding is spelled F I G H T.
Of course is a person is practicing a non-combative style or MA or even a combative one but for non-combative purposes then they can claim whatever they want OTHER than being "combative".

Agreed.

Again, I'm not saying qi isn't real. I'm just saying it has never been shown to have an application in a martial context.

Maybe qigong can improve health, reduce stress, and make you feel more alive. That's a subjective experience for the most part, and if someone says doing qigong every day makes them feel better, I'm not going to argue with them, and I would encourage them to keep doing it. But it cannot make you withstand blows or put more power in your strikes or break the bottom brick because you are shooting qi through the top brick into the bottom brick.

[sanjuro_ronin]

That may be a better classification.

But what about the fighting systems that spend time doing qi stuff? Like a Hung Gar school or something. That's a pretty "external" fighting style, yet they have the iron wire form which I believe is for qi development.



Agreed.

Again, I'm not saying qi isn't real. I'm just saying it has never been shown to have an application in a martial context.

Maybe qigong can improve health, reduce stress, and make you feel more alive. That's a subjective experience for the most part, and if someone says doing qigong every day makes them feel better, I'm not going to argue with them, and I would encourage them to keep doing it. But it cannot make you withstand blows or put more power in your strikes or break the bottom brick because you are shooting qi through the top brick into the bottom brick.

IF Qi is NOT "physics and body mechanics" then ANYTHING that can be explained and'or duplicated VIA physics and body mechanics is NOT Qi.
So, in that regards, everything that we see demoed as qi is NOT qi.

The very real and quantifiable benefits of the IW form in Hung ga have nothing to do with "qi".
See the above "qualifier".

[wenshu]

This is like a monthly thing for you huh, IF? :)

That reminds me, I need to pick up some Tampax.



But it cannot make you withstand blows or put more power in your strikes or break the bottom brick because you are shooting qi through the top brick into the bottom brick.

As many of us have been trying to explain to you repeatedly, this is not the only definition of Qi.

Qi is not a singular thing, it is a fluid, nebulous metaphor the definition of which is still being debated. It can operate as a metaphor for physiological phenomena or as a Cosmological hypothesis. Or as in your experience, a way for Star Wars cosplayers to scam potential Rice Bowls.

In ancient times it was a relatively effective way of explaining things considering that the Chinese were treating diabetes and hypothyroidism while in the west going to the doctor meant going to get your hair cut.

For instance consider the sympathetic and parasympathetic systems. One controls the fight or flight response, the other the relaxation response. What is a binary metaphorical framework I could use if I observed physiological effects of these systems but lacked the vocabulary of empirical neuro-endocrinology? Something that represents the interplay of opposites?

In Shuai Jiao (most of the limp wristed Internal Power crowd would probably deride Shuai Jiao as an external martial art) my Coach talks about Qi all the time, all he means is having the energy to do something. If you're gassed out and can't muster the bofali (explosiveness) to pull a move off it is because you have depleted Qi. Or even more importantly, having the ability to issue explosive force despite being gassed out. After high intensity drills, controlling your Qi is just consciously working to bring your heart rate and breathing down to baseline. A native Chinese SJ Coach refers to Qi in a manner that can be described as an expression of stamina, which incidentally was listed as part of the informal definition of "guts". Even in Shaolin practice, when my coach talks about Qi, it's often just as an expression of explosiveness.

The bifurcation between external and internal is a modern invention and the idea that Qi is the Force is for Rice Bowls. You would be surprised how many people actually don't think that Qi = The Force.

As far as Iron Palm conditioning is concerned I would actually be more interested in Qi as an expression of the intent to condition the hands in such a way.


IF Qi is NOT "physics and body mechanics" then ANYTHING that can be explained and'or duplicated VIA physics and body mechanics is NOT Qi.
So, in that regards, everything that we see demoed as qi is NOT qi.

The very real and quantifiable benefits of the IW form in Hung ga have nothing to do with "qi".
See the above "qualifier".

Qigong, Iron Wire, Yoga. They are just forms of exercise.

[David Jamieson]

a "non-fighting" system doesn't merit being called martial. It is exercise. Any exercise will enhance martial ability to some degree.

[sanjuro_ronin]

a "non-fighting" system doesn't merit being called martial. It is exercise. Any exercise will enhance martial ability to some degree.

Granted but the harsh reality is that far too many MA have become just that, non-combative.

[taai gihk yahn]

So rather than making simple minded criticisms yourself, how about providing a more comprehensive definition of Qi for us all and demonstrate its effectiveness.
here's my favorite, from Ted Kaptchuk, OMD, and I am inclined to take his perspective on it...

"Qi is not some primordial, immutable material, nor is it merely vital energy, although the word is occasionally so translated. Chinese thought does not easily distinguish between matter and energy. We might think that Qi is somewhere in between, a kind of matter on the verge of becoming energy, or energy at the point of materializing."
...
"Qi is the thread connecting all being. Qi is the common denominator of all things- from mineral to human...Qi is the fundamental quality of being and becoming."
...
"Qi is the universe's underlying plastic texture that explains change, the inexhaustible ink of the world...Qi is the cause, process, and outcome of all activity in the cosmos. Qi is the ceaseless throbbing, the substratum of the cosmos."
it's essentially a description of some underlying, universal functional principle, a means by which this principle can be contextualized and applied to things such as health, environment, etc.



But when it comes to Qi that is a different thing all together. One would have to have a good grasp of the Chinese language and culture and Chinese medicine to really understand the concept of the 'Qi' analogy. Qi is a scientific term, it is simply an ancient scientific term. Remember, 'Atom' is also an ancient scientific term who's definition has changed considerably through time. Qi is science from another culture. It doesn't describe anything magical, its just a different way of describing the human body as it is.
it's not, in the strictest sense, "scientific", insofar as relates to "scientific method"; in essence, while it is empirical, it is not objective, meaning that it's a qualitative assessment of a given entities state of being (e.g. - a person, but could also be a mountain range, the weather or a plate of food); it's metaphorical: it uses imagery to talk about function and interaction of macro-observable physiological processes;


I've done standing qigong. I've felt some weird things.
welcome to the experience of your autonomic nervous system...


Qi is not a singular thing, it is a fluid, nebulous metaphor the definition of which is still being debated. It can operate as a metaphor for physiological phenomena or as a Cosmological hypothesis.

In ancient times it was a relatively effective way of explaining things considering that the Chinese were treating diabetes and hypothyroidism while in the west going to the doctor meant going to get your hair cut.

For instance consider the sympathetic and parasympathetic systems. One controls the fight or flight response, the other the relaxation response. What is a binary metaphorical framework I could use if I observed physiological effects of these systems but lacked the vocabulary of empirical neuro-endocrinology? Something that represents the interplay of opposites?
THIS!

[wenshu]

it's essentially a description of some underlying, universal functional principle, a means by which this principle can be contextualized and applied to things such as health, environment, etc.




NEW LAWS TO BE EXPECTED IN THE ORGANISM

What I wish to make clear in this last chapter is, in short, that from all we have learnt about the structure of living matter, we must be prepared to find it working in a manner that cannot be reduced to the ordinary laws of physics. And that not on the ground that there is any 'new force' or what not, directing the behaviour of the single atoms within a living organism, but because the construction is different from a anything we have yet tested in the physical laboratory. To put it crudely, an engineer, familiar with heat engines only, will, after inspecting the construction of an electric motor, be prepared to find it working along principles which he does not yet understand. He finds the copper familiar to him in kettles used here in the form of long, wires wound in coils; the iron familiar to him in levers and bars and steam cylinders here filling the interior of those coils of copper wire. He will be convinced that it is the same copper and the same iron, subject to the same laws of Nature, and he is right in that. The difference in construction is enough to prepare him for an entirely different way of functioning. He will not suspect that an electric motor is driven by a ghost because it is set spinning by the turn of a switch, without boiler and steam. If a man never contradicts himself, the reason must be that he virtually never says anything at all.

REVIEWING THE BIOLOGICAL SITUATION

The unfolding of events in the life cycle of an organism exhibits an admirable regularity and orderliness, unrivalled by anything we meet with in inanimate matter. We find it controlled by a supremely well-ordered group of atoms, which represent only a very small fraction of the sum total in every cell. Moreover, from the view we have formed of the mechanism of mutation we conclude that the dislocation of just a few atoms within the group of 'governing atoms' of the germ cell suffices to bring about a well-defined change in the large-scale hereditary characteristics of the organism. These facts are easily the most interesting that science has revealed in our day. We may be inclined to find them, after all, not wholly unacceptable. An organism's astonishing gift of concentrating a 'stream of order' on itself and thus escaping that the decay into atomic chaos -of 'drinking orderliness' from a suitable environment –seems to be connected with the presence of the 'aperiodic solids', the chromosome molecules, which doubtless represent the highest degree of well-ordered atomic association we know of - much higher than the ordinary periodic crystal - in virtue of the individual role every atom and every radical is playing here. To put it briefly, we witness the event that existing order displays the power of maintaining itself and of producing orderly events. That sounds plausible enough, though in finding it plausible we, no doubt, draw on experience concerning social organization and other events which involve the activity of organisms. And so it might seem that something like a vicious circle is implied.

TWO WAYS OF PRODUCING ORDERLINESS

The orderliness encountered in the unfolding of life springs from a different source. It appears that there are two different 'mechanisms' by which orderly events can be produced: the 'statistical mechanism' which produces order from disorder and the new one, producing order from order. To the unprejudiced mind the second principle appears to be much simpler, much more plausible. No a doubt it is. That is why physicists were so proud to have fallen in with the other one, the 'order-from-disorder' principle, which is actually followed in Nature and which alone conveys an understanding of the great line of natural events, in the first place of their irreversibility. But we cannot expect that the 'laws of physics' derived from it suffice straightaway to explain the behaviour of living matter, whose most striking features are visibly based to a large extent on the 'order-fromorder'
principle. You would not expect two entirely different mechanisms to bring about the same type of law -you would not expect your latch-key, to open your neighbour's door as well.We must therefore not be discouraged by the difficulty of interpreting life by the ordinary laws of physics. For that is just what is to be expected from the knowledge we have gained of the structure of living matter. We must be prepared to find a new type of physical law prevailing in it. Or are we to term it a non-physical, not to say a super-physical, law?



...living matter, while not eluding the "laws of physics" as established up to date, is likely to involve "other laws of physics" hitherto unknown, which however, once they have been revealed, will form just as integral a part of science as the former.


-Erwin Schrodinger


http://whatislife.stanford.edu/LoCo_files/What-is-Life.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Is_Life%3F

[Blacktiger]

Best way to think of it as current/electricity in the body and all we are doing is building that charge/current up over time.

Forget all the mystical stuff...

Find out how your heart pumps, does not just happen?

Im not going to go in depth about it but essentially we are bio-electric our heart is an electro chemical device - you can read about it here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_conduction_system_of_the_heart

People seem to forget that martial arts systems were not just about fighting but health as well. In days gone by alot of systems always had a bodywork component.

[David Jamieson]

Best way to think of it as current/electricity in the body and all we are doing is building that charge/current up over time.

Forget all the mystical stuff...

Find out how your heart pumps, does not just happen?

Im not going to go in depth about it but essentially we are bio-electric our heart is an electro chemical device - you can read about it here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_conduction_system_of_the_heart

People seem to forget that martial arts systems were not just about fighting but health as well. In days gone by alot of systems always had a bodywork component.

Well, the idea of a build up of charge is pretty mystical. ;)

But we are a machine, an organic one, but nevertheless there is a physical and explainable process that occurs. Yes, electricity is involved, but you might be surprised at how low the amps and volts are. Fluid dynamics play a big part in what we are and how we move etc as well. We are mostly fluid after all.

Ultimately, it is about total unity and full grasp of the body and mind.
If you work in the Occam's razor model and stay away from mysticism and cryptic symbology and stick to the raw reality and results of what you are doing, you may be less satisfied esoterically but results speak for themselves.

People who get stuck too far in the weeds generally are unable to express in layman's terms what's happening and that reveals a lack of understanding that has been cultivated by pursuit of a dead end idea or a fruitless path.

Just like a dentist or a doctor. they can be highly trained and competent, but if they are unable to transmit what they are doing to you in terms you understand, they are incomplete in their understanding.

[IronFist]

How many of you "qi is real! It's a life force that runs through us all" people at least agree that it has no martial applications?

Geez, I phrased that wrong, didn't I? I know at least one person is gonna be like "qi is in everything that is alive, and you are alive when you are fighting, therefore qi can be used for martial applications!" :rolleyes:

Is qi real? Perhaps.

If qi is real, is it present in every living organism? I suppose.

Can qigong training improve one's health? Maybe.

Can qigong training improve one's well being? Maybe.

Can qigong training reduce one's stress? Maybe.

Can qigong training improve one's quality of life? Maybe.

Can qi be used to enhance striking ability (as in "I am transferring my qi into my palms so I can break this brick")? No.

Can qi be used to enhance the ability to withstand strikes (as in "I am moving my qi to the area that is about to be struck in order to protect me from the damage I would otherwise receive")? No.

Is everyone who promotes contrary to those last two statements a poor representative of the martial arts? Yes.

[ShaolinDan]

Whether qi is 'real' or not, doing qi work has real physiological effects--many of these can relate quite directly to combat skill. Might be other ways to get the same skill, but any way that works is a valid way.

[bawang]

qi means air.

[wenshu]

Best way to think of it as current/electricity in the body and all we are doing is building that charge/current up over time.

I think this is too specific and a good representation of the problem of reconciliation of concepts like Qi with western reductionist empiricism.

Perhaps more accurately, things like bio electricity (EKG, HRV), bio luminescence(biophotons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biophoton))are expressions of the properties and/or functions of Qi but aren't Qi per se. Qi is more like the underlying organizational framework governing interactions that makes it possible in the first place. So you can say things like EKG, HRV, nerve potential is a measure of Qi insofar as Qi makes them possible but it is not Qi itself.

This is kind of a weird tangent but consider elementary cellular automata (http://mathworld.wolfram.com/ElementaryCellularAutomaton.html).


cellular automaton is a collection of "colored" cells on a grid of specified shape that evolves through a number of discrete time steps according to a set of rules based on the states of neighboring cells. The rules are then applied iteratively for as many time steps as desired. von Neumann was one of the first people to consider such a model, and incorporated a cellular model into his "universal constructor." Cellular automata were studied in the early 1950s as a possible model for biological systems

http://mathworld.wolfram.com/images/eps-gif/ElementaryCARule030_700.gif


The simplest type of cellular automaton is a binary, nearest-neighbor, one-dimensional automaton. Such automata were called "elementary cellular automata" by S. Wolfram, who has extensively studied their amazing properties (Wolfram 1983; 2002, p. 57). There are 256 such automata, each of which can be indexed by a unique binary number whose decimal representation is known as the "rule" for the particular automaton. An illustration of rule 30 is shown above together with the evolution it produces after 15 steps starting from a single black cell.

http://mathworld.wolfram.com/images/eps-gif/Code0912Rules_500.gif

http://mathworld.wolfram.com/images/eps-gif/Code0912_450.gif


In two dimensions, the best-known cellular automaton is Conway's game of life, discovered by J. H. Conway in 1970 and popularized in Martin Gardner's Scientific American columns. The game of life is a binary () totalistic cellular automaton with a Moore neighborhood of range . Although the computation of successive game of life generations was originally done by hand, the computer revolution soon arrived and allowed more extensive patterns to be studied and propagated. An animation of the game of life construction known as a puffer train is illustrated.

http://mathworld.wolfram.com/images/gifs/puffertr.gif


cellular automaton is a collection of "colored" cells on a grid of specified shape that evolves through a number of discrete time steps according to a set of rules based on the states of neighboring cells

I'm really reaching here, but in it's broadest sense I kind of think of Qi as the set of rules and the grid on which they play out.

[IronFist]

Whether qi is 'real' or not, doing qi work has real physiological effects--many of these can relate quite directly to combat skill. Might be other ways to get the same skill, but any way that works is a valid way.

What real physiological effects does it have? Which of those effects relate quite directly to combat skills, and in what way?

[David Jamieson]

qi means air.

or breath, yes. But don't try to oversimplify it. People want their dragons and flying nuns for pete's sake! ;)

[wenshu]

Is everyone who promotes contrary to those last two statements a poor representative of the martial arts? Yes.

Not at all, in fact they serve a very important function.

They help keep the real classes free of idiots liable to believe cosplayer fairy tales.

If and when they finally realize they've been duped then they just transfer their fantasies to MMA and spend a week or two as white belt mat fodder before they give up and the lingering cognitive dissonance causes them to troll martial arts sites for the hell of it.


What real physiological effects does it have? Which of those effects relate quite directly to combat skills, and in what way?

What is the most important part of General Adaptation Syndrome? The one that allows for all the gains we see in everything from bone and tissue density in Iron Palm training to weekly linear progression in the squat.

Recovery.


Meditation is a conscious mental process that induces a set of
integrated physiologic changes termed the relaxation response.
Functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) was used to
identify and characterize the brain regions that are active
during a simple form of meditation. Signi®cant signal
increases were observed in the group-averaged data in the
dorsolateral prefrontal and parietal cortices, hippocampus/
parahippocampus, temporal lobe, pregenual anterior cingulate
cortex, striatum, and pre- and post-central gyri during medita-
tion. Global fMRI signal decreases were also noted, although
these were probably secondary to cardiorespiratory changes
that often accompany meditation. The results indicate that the
practice of meditation activates neural structures involved in
attention and control of the autonomic nervous system.

http://www.massgeneral.org/bhi/assets/pdfs/publications/lazar_2000_neuroreport.pdf

[David Jamieson]

You sir, genuinely instill a laugh in my gut now and then.

that's a nice rapier you have there... :p

[IronFist]

What is the most important part of General Adaptation Syndrome? The one that allows for all the gains we see in everything from bone and tissue density in Iron Palm training to weekly linear progression in the squat.

Recovery.


Even if qigong accelerated recovery, pajama wearing qi blasters don't even train hard enough to need better recovery.

[Lucas]

Even if qigong accelerated recovery, pajama wearing qi blasters don't even train hard enough to need better recovery.

they do when they get hit by a poorly aimed chi blast. stray bullets can kill man!

[Blacktiger]

Qi is different for everyone - depends on what you have experienced.

Also depends greatly on quality of the instruction you receive which is key....key hahah bad joke!

I work as a Shiatsu practitioner - see and action lots of stuff on a daily basis.

No dragons and spells, very clinical, obviously that comes within a frame work of TCM
knowledge of points, meridians, anatomy and physiology.

But when you marry this side with the martial side of things - thats when you can see the whole picture. Same if your looking from a TCM side but have no martial training.

You will always be viewing the picture with one eye.

Bottom line is -just get on with your training and quit chasing the lighting bolt.

[IronFist]

Qi is different for everyone

Why can internal stylists not agree on the one thing that is most fundamental to their art?

[Blacktiger]

Forget internal stylists try anyone - period.

How long is a piece of string?

Your trying to explain the unexplainable?

I can treat a variety of problems using meridian and point work alone in a Shiatsu treatment.

Do I know how this actually happens really - hell no!

But the body sure as hell recognises it and responds.

I see it every day with people from all walks of life.

Go and have a chat and look at someone who has had Kundalini problems as a result of unsafe practise, happens all the time. Ask them what they think Qi is...

Bottom line is dont get hung up on what it may or may not be, your experience is your experience. Move on and keep training :D

[David Jamieson]

Why can internal stylists not agree on the one thing that is most fundamental to their art?

In many cases they don't speak Chinese, haven't read the classics and don't have in depth grasp from their own cultural frame of reference and so there is struggle with concepts that don't simply map across which are then replaced with cryptic or incomplete understandings.

In my experience. But with the old fellers, who don't speak much english and don't have a western cultural frame of reference? They don't have an issue showing it to you, demonstrating it for you, teaching how to do it to you and remove any magic ass stuff from it entirely.

The biggest problem in IMA in my opinion is the distorted western perspective that there is a divide and that humans can do magic things with secert energy only they have. THat is a delusion born of ignorance that is in continuation and further supported by those who wish they had skill without effort as well.

Otherwise, Xing Yi, Taiji and Bag Gua are totally legit if trained without all the malarky attached. Unfortunately, the western mind is big on malarky. Have you watched a popular program in any format lately? :p

[Blacktiger]

In my experience. But with the old fellers, who don't speak much english and don't have a western cultural frame of reference? They don't have an issue showing it to you, demonstrating it for you, teaching how to do it to you and remove any magic ass stuff from it entirely.

The biggest problem in IMA in my opinion is the distorted western perspective that there is a divide and that humans can do magic things with secert energy only they have. That is a delusion born of ignorance that is in continuation and further supported by those who wish they had skill without effort as well.
:p

This is right on the money!

[Scott R. Brown]

qi means air.

I thought it means "steam"!:eek:

[IronFist]

Forget internal stylists try anyone - period.

How long is a piece of string?

Asking "what is qi?" is significantly different from "how long is a piece of string?"

"What is qi?" is like asking "what is string?"

I'm sure people who work with string have no problem defining it.

So your analogy is incorrect.


Go and have a chat and look at someone who has had Kundalini problems as a result of unsafe practise, happens all the time. Ask them what they think Qi is...

I've heard this mentioned before but never really heard any specifics. I've only really heard like "awakening the Kundalini improperly/before you are ready/etc. can make you go crazy," but it's vague, kind of like the vague "warnings" that accompany kung fu stuff, like "too much spear hand training damages the eye sight" or whatever. Vague without any legitimate reports of it ever happening.

The first time read about Kundalini was in Glenn Morris' "Pathnotes of an American Ninja Master" and while that book was very entertaining, it was so full of crazy/fantasy/supernatural stuff that I really don't know how much of it was true and how much of it was written to appeal to martial artists who want all that stuff to be true. Regardless, I really did enjoy that book.

[Eric Olson]

Why do these conversations about internal/external always end up in the same lame place? Here I've presented NEW information that could go a long ways toward bridging the divide, but we fall back to the same old "camps".

Fail.

EO

[wenshu]

All you said is that "internal" = body mechanics.

It ended up in the same lame place because that's where you started.

[ShaolinDan]

ooga ooga ooga ooga booga booga :)

[Scott R. Brown]

ooga ooga ooga ooga booga booga :)

Uh....that's, "ooga ooga ooga, booga booga booga!"

You had one too many oogas and one to few boogas!!!


Your kundalini rose too soon and too quickly and has distorted your qi storage, inflating your belly bigger than the qi available to fill it. This has caused your timing to be off and has ruined your short term memory, not to mention your spiritual phasing is out of sync with your physical phasing, which commonly leads to cancer of the qi canals.


Of course I can fix all this for you with my next $3,000 weekend seminar! If you sign up 100 other people I'll give you a $1.99 discount!

You have to ask yourself, is your kundalini and qi balance worth it? Are you willing to risk your spiritual and physical balance? Is it worth the risk of damaging for your next 7 lives having to work off your qi canal cancer?

I say, NO!!!!

Send your check now to reserve your place in my next seminar or you will probably die young, poor, ugly, fat, pimply, alcoholic, and riddled with lice, mice, spice and lice!!!

[Blacktiger]

Asking "what is qi?" is significantly different from "how long is a piece of string?"

"What is qi?" is like asking "what is string?"

I'm sure people who work with string have no problem defining it.

So your analogy is incorrect



I've heard this mentioned before but never really heard any specifics. I've only really heard like "awakening the Kundalini improperly/before you are ready/etc. can make you go crazy," but it's vague, kind of like the vague "warnings" that accompany kung fu stuff, like "too much spear hand training damages the eye sight" or whatever. Vague without any legitimate reports of it ever happening.

The first time read about Kundalini was in Glenn Morris' "Pathnotes of an American Ninja Master" and while that book was very entertaining, it was so full of crazy/fantasy/supernatural stuff that I really don't know how much of it was true and how much of it was written to appeal to martial artists who want all that stuff to be true. Regardless, I really did enjoy that book.

Im just saying that you are never going to get agreement - end of story, we can sit here going round in circles all day.

As for Glenn Morris I trained with him here in Australia a few years back - also new a guy who spent alot of time with him in the states and then back here in Oz.

Was great fun - rates as my top Qigong experience to date - really amazing from just a wow factor and lots of really nasty Ninjutsu applications, now they love to get the pain on - forget tapping - they dont tap,you are expected to endure.

He was very tight with Dr Hatsumi from Bujinkan and had his tick of approval which is enough for most martial artists who are in the know.If any one else on the board trained with Glenn im sure they would agree he was space traveller but man - he could shut you down. Funny story - he used to take his students to rough biker bars leave them there, and they had to make their way out in one piece.

As for Kundalini fun and games - you may not have come into contact with it but it happens all the time, its not vague at all there is alot of information covering the topic. Have a chat to an experienced Yoga teacher or body worker. Again its all about experience - and what you come in contact with.

Now I must run im off to a levatation seminar!

[IronFist]

they dont tap,you are expected to endure.

Sounds like some tough guy ego BS.


As for Kundalini fun and games - you may not have come into contact with it but it happens all the time, its not vague at all there is alot of information covering the topic. Have a chat to an experienced Yoga teacher or body worker. Again its all about experience - and what you come in contact with.


That was vague. I don't know any experienced yoga teachers or body workers, guess I'm out of luck.

[Blacktiger]

Sounds like some tough guy ego BS.



That was vague. I don't know any experienced yoga teachers or body workers, guess I'm out of luck.

Not BS or ego - try reality, experience you wont get from bashing focus pads all day.

[IronFist]

Not BS or ego - try reality, experience you wont get from bashing focus pads all day.

I've trained at grappling schools before. Not tapping is the dumbest thing I've ever heard of.

[Blacktiger]

You have it all covered then ;)

Grappling is just the same as a Bujinkan Ninjustsu class :D

[pazman]

Yep, mentioning Hatsumi really adds credibility to a post.:rolleyes:

[ShaolinDan]

Uh....that's, "ooga ooga ooga, booga booga booga!"

You had one too many oogas and one to few boogas!!!


Your kundalini rose too soon and too quickly and has distorted your qi storage, inflating your belly bigger than the qi available to fill it. This has caused your timing to be off and has ruined your short term memory, not to mention your spiritual phasing is out of sync with your physical phasing, which commonly leads to cancer of the qi canals.


Of course I can fix all this for you with my next $3,000 weekend seminar! If you sign up 100 other people I'll give you a $1.99 discount!

You have to ask yourself, is your kundalini and qi balance worth it? Are you willing to risk your spiritual and physical balance? Is it worth the risk of damaging for your next 7 lives having to work off your qi canal cancer?

I say, NO!!!!

Send your check now to reserve your place in my next seminar or you will probably die young, poor, ugly, fat, pimply, alcoholic, and riddled with lice, mice, spice and lice!!!

Nope. You're wrong. This is how we do it in MY lineage.

[Blacktiger]

Yep, mentioning Hatsumi really adds credibility to a post.:rolleyes:

Yeah I agree, no credibility at all.

The guy only personally trained with Hatsumi for many years. And was then asked by him (Hatsumi) personally to teach internal arts in order to keep them from becoming extinct among many of the new practitioners of Ninjutsu.;)

We all know Hatsumi has no idea at all :)

[Eric Olson]

All you said is that "internal" = body mechanics.

It ended up in the same lame place because that's where you started.

Not exactly. I SHOWED what the body mechanics are and how they can be measured.

This whole dismissal of "internal" martial arts reminds me a lot of the debate over the efficacy of Chinese medicine. Yes, there's a lot of hocus pocus but some of it actually works--and sometimes BETTER than western treatments. You can only find these things out by applying scientific methods as these Stanford researchers have done in the video.

EO