Vertical V Horizontal Punching

[k gledhill]

Ving Tsun uses a vertical fist for issuing force and defensive use simultaneously..

Horizontal v. Vertical Punching History of Punching

Little is known about the guard used by fighters and fighting rules before the great English pugilist Jack Broughton, a student of James Figg, devised the Broughton Rules in 1743. Broughton also invented "mufflers" (padded gloves), which were used in training and exhibitions. Under the Broughton Rules, not much was considered illegal when compared to the London Prize Ring Rules so a higher guard and quicker stance was necessary. There were no limitations against butting, gouging, kicking, or hitting below the belt. The rules mostly just kept a boxing match from becoming a wrestling match.

Until the use of gloves became common, pugilists struck mostly with a vertical fist because it was considered less injurious to the fist to hit with a vertical fist than a horizontal one, especially when using hooks or swinging punches. However, they used a horizontal fist when the target warranted it, such as to the side of the neck. The vertical fist was thought to have a greater range, but, in fact, the arm's reach does not get longer just because the fist is rotated 90 degrees, unless you make some other body adjustment.

Due to the confrontations American soldiers had with Filipino natives in the Philippines during the Spanish-American War in 1898, the guard was raised from the low knuckles downward position to the higher knuckles forward position. When engaged in hand-to-hand combat, the Filipinos would slash the wrists of the extended arms of the American soldiers.

The wearing of gloves in a boxing match is a fairly modern innovation. Prior to 1866, when the Marquis of Queensbury Rules made the wearing of gloves mandatory, boxers fought bare-knuckled. Gloves, or “mufflers” as they were called, were used only in sparring. One may think that fighting bare-knuckled, would cause significant damage to the fist. A common injury among modern boxers is the “boxer’s fracture,” in which the outer two knuckles, and sometimes the outer metacarpals of the hand are broken from the impact of an unprotected punch. Many boxing greats have broken their fists in this way when engaging in street fights.

However, the risk is significantly reduced through the biomechanics of throwing a bare-fisted punch. Old style pugilism, which was built primarily on linear action and emulated the thrust of a sword used a vertical fist, rather than today’s horizontal fist.

With a vertical fist, the entire arm is extended in one line from the shoulder through to the fist. The elbow is tucked beneath the arm as opposed to jutting outward, and the wrist is kept straight. This changes the angle at which the fist connects, and maximizes the striking surface by using the whole fist and not just the first two knuckles. Even when throwing a “rounding blow,” which is the ancestor of today’s hook, the vertical fist was used – either normally or inverted. Punching with a vertical fist provides fewer places in the arm for energy to “get lost” (like a bent elbow or wrist), and it provides more protection for the arm as a whole. The result is that that more kinetic energy is realized as force, and is distributed evenly across the fist. This protects the hand better than if the force was concentrated in one area, while still providing a powerful blow.

Professor Mike Donovan, an ex-middleweight champion, in his 1893 book The Science of Boxing, advocated using a three-knuckle landing, vertical punch. Jack Dempsey was an advocate of the three-knuckle, vertical punch, as it worked well with his "power line" theory (similar to the Wing-chun centerline theory).

However, the benefits of punching with a vertical fist are neutralized when wearing gloves. The hand is already protected so linear blows may be replaced by more circular blows like the “corkscrew” jab and, of course, the hook. These blows may be thrown with more power because they have the increased energy of momentum behind them, as well as the weight of the gloves themselves, which may weigh anywhere from 8 to 20 ounces. Additionally, because boxers need not worry about breaking their fists, they may throw punches that are more powerful Gloves, due to their size, act much like small shields around the hands, and may be used to block incoming blows. Modern boxing guards reflect this, with the hands are held close to the body to easily tuck and cover. Gloves also make getting through a modern guard with linear punches more difficult, which works to the defender’s advantage when blocking shots to the stomach or sides with the elbows, forearms, and biceps.

The older guards, or “attitudes,” were far more extended because the fighters could not rely on the extra protection gloves provide. They needed to block many blows further away from their bodies. This is particularly true for shots to the head, which could not effectively be blocked with the modern tuck and cover. Combatants needed time to react and parry, having little protection close in. Therefore, the distance in bare-knuckle pugilism was considerably longer than in today’s boxing, being fought just outside the range where each antagonist could hit the other without moving his body or feet.
The following topics discuss horizontal and vertical punches and, since twisting or the lack of twisting is a part of the performing the punches, it is included in the discussion.
Vertical punchers say the twist causes a weak wrist

Some vertical punchers say that when an opponent moves in as you are punching, a twisting horizontal punch may buckle, and the wrist may be more damaged than the target. However, in reality, the opponent is always moving in one direction or another; opponents do not stand stationary and get hit. Twist punchers train to punch from any variety of ranges and movements. In 30 years of martial arts experience, I have never seen anyone injure a wrist because of twisting a punch. I have seen wrists injured because they were not locked, but that would also be a problem when vertical punching.
Vertical punchers say their thumb position is stronger

Some vertical punchers say their punch is stronger because the thumb is placed on top of the fist instead of folding under the fingers, thus making the wrist stronger. If this were true, then any gain in wrist strength is offset by a loss in fist stability. Try it yourself, make a fist with the thumb on top, and then squeeze the fist as tight and solid as you can. Then try the same thing with the thumb folded underneath in a natural position. Which fist feels more solid? If the thumb on top would prevent injuries to professional fighters, they would use it.

Boxers fold their thumbs underneath, for fist stability and because they worry about thumbing (the thumb poking into an opponent's eye) and the thumb being snagged and sprained by being pulled backward. When free-sparring, a slack thumb on top of a fist may lead to an accidental thumbing of the opponent or the thumb being snagged on the opponent's sleeve or grabbed.

In reality, wrist strength is not affected significantly by either of the thumb positions. As long as the wrist is held straight and locked, it will not be injured in a punch. The wrist is strengthened by punching, so years of punching with either method will strengthen it to perform the desired punching method.
Vertical punchers say their punch is faster

Some vertical punchers say their punch is faster because there is no twist. If we assume this is true, how much faster is it? Sparring is not drag racing or downhill ski racing, it not judged by thousandths of a second. A few hundredths of a second in speed will not make any difference in whether a punch is blocked or not blocked so the hand is quicker than the eye. Once you see a fist move, it is too late to block or avoid it. To block or avoid a punch, you must detect the punch before it moves by reading the opponent's body language. Therefore, a punch that strikes harder will be more effective than one that is a millisecond faster.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Dejavu ??

:D

Why must it be a case of either/or?

[k gledhill]

Dejavu ??

:D

Why must it be a case of either/or?

I was asked to re-post it, I added some more to it...

Vertical punches say the vertical punch is more natural

When you irritate a small child, he or she will ball his or her fist and punch, not with a vertical fist, but with a horizontal fist. It is the way humans are constructed. If you walk up to a random number of people on the street and ask them to extend their arms to the front, how would most of them extend their arms? I have not done this on the street but I have done it with groups of new students. When extending their arms, they all extend their arms with their palms downward, thumbs pointing inward (hands horizontal). This is a natural movement; the arm is relaxed, except for the tension required to hold the arm up. To rotate the hands until the thumbs are pointed upward (hands vertical) requires a conscious effort and requires conscious effort and muscle tension to keep them vertical. If the muscle tension is released, the hands return to a horizontal position.

Holding hand in full pronation (palm downward) or full supination (palm upward) position requires the use of some intrinsic muscles of the forearm known respectively as the pronators and supinators. In the uppercut punch hand position (palm upward), the hand is in full supination, while in the horizontal punch position (palm downward) the hand is in full pronation. Vertical punchers believe that, when the hand is held so the palm is inward, that the two sets of muscles are in a balanced position and thus make a punch more powerful. One example they give to prove that the vertical position of the hand is more natural is that this is the way the hand is positioned when reaching out to shake hands with another person. However, in this example, they confusing cause and effect. They think that the hand position in the handshake (effect) is caused by the way we naturally extend our hand. However, the way we extend our hand for a handshake (effect) is actually caused by the way we must position our hand to shake hands.

Try this:

*

Stand with your arms hanging naturedly at the sides.
*

Keeping your hands and wrist motionless and using only your shoulder muscles, raise your arms in front of your body to shoulder height.
*

Now close the hands into fists.

What is the position of the fists? They are horizontal. Now rotate them into a vertical position. Notice how this takes a lot of motion and effort.

Now try this:

*

Stand with your arms hanging naturedly at the sides.
*

Using your shoulder muscles, raise your arms in front of your body to shoulder height while rotating the hands so the palms face inward.
*

Notice the extra effort this rotation takes and the muscle tension down the entire arm.
*

Now close the hands into fists.

Notice how you must use muscle tension to maintain the vertical fist position. Now release the tension and notice how the fist naturally rotates into the horizontal position.

Think about this while your arms are outstretched. If you had to hold your arms outstretched for as long as possible to beat other contestants for a million dollars, which palm position would you chose, palms facing inward or palms facing downward ?

When the aforementioned people are told to make fists with their extended hands and to keep their wrists straight, the first two knuckles of the fists are naturally in a straight line with the wrists and the forearms, therefore, when punching an object with the wrist straight, the first two knuckles will naturally strike first. Any force applied to the front of the knuckles will be transferred in straight line down the hand and through the wrist to the elbow and on to the shoulder. If the fist misses its target slightly so that the last three knuckles strike the target first, since the wrist is locked and straight, the line of force through the wrist has only a slight bend in it, so the off-center punch will probably have no adverse affect upon the wrist.

Ask any non-martial artist to push his or her hands against a wall. In which direction are the fingers and knuckles of the hands pointed? They are always pointed upward! This is not a behavior learned from training in a martial art; it is the natural way the body is constructed. To turn the hands so the fingers are pointed outward takes a conscious effort and it feels unnatural and awkward. If the same person were told to make tight fists and push against the wall, he or she would push with the knuckles upward in horizontal fists, not with the knuckles outward in vertical fists.

Me : SLT trains and focuses our elbows to maintain a centered position, as the above article mentions, inward rotation is not normal for us. I have heard the same from just about every beginner , "this feels awkward" . As the student develops they realize that the only time during their day they develop the striking ability of VT is from SLT. The Tan sao is adopting the outside of an inward striking arm, the Jum sao the inside, each striking and deflecting with the added 'line of force' and attacking entry. By simple and clever utilization of striking lines the same vertical fist also becomes an 'intercepting' line of force, requiring the Chum Kil to angle and move to distances and angles bare hand fighting requires.

If the ideas of VT are misguided then the arm chasing, sticking , controlling will make you FAIL in fighting. It is the striking AND defending as ONE action with force that gets the job done.

[sanjuro_ronin]

An excellent anatomical view BUT one that does not take into account WHAT is being done and in regards to the vertical fist, it is used in a specfifc way for a specific reason.
The horizontal fist tends to be more "all purpose" in terms of "forward punching" ( or pressing for that matter).
Ever done a bench press with elbows in or elbows out? horizontal hands or vertical?
Which one can you push more weight and create more force ( ie: has more potential for producing more power)?

But again, a vertical fist strike is done for a specific purpose, with specific intent.

There is no reason to NO use both and just allow for the natural order of things to "dictate".

[k gledhill]

An excellent anatomical view BUT one that does not take into account WHAT is being done and in regards to the vertical fist, it is used in a specfifc way for a specific reason.
The horizontal fist tends to be more "all purpose" in terms of "forward punching" ( or pressing for that matter).
Ever done a bench press with elbows in or elbows out? horizontal hands or vertical?
Which one can you push more weight and create more force ( ie: has more potential for producing more power)?

But again, a vertical fist strike is done for a specific purpose, with specific intent.

There is no reason to NO use both and just allow for the natural order of things to "dictate".


The simultaneous, mindless, lin sil di da, striking ideas don't work with raised elbows/horizontal fists.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Again, a specific fist for a specific function (right tool for the job sort of thing).
I use both and allow HOW I throw them and what I am doing to dictate their formation.

[Kevin73]

So what happened to the other thread on this?


The problem with "anatomical postitions" in regards to many things is that it is dependant on that specific position.

So what may be strongest in one position might not necessarily be true in another position or range.

[k gledhill]

Again, a specific fist for a specific function (right tool for the job sort of thing).
I use both and allow HOW I throw them and what I am doing to dictate their formation.


So what happened to the other thread on this?


The problem with "anatomical postitions" in regards to many things is that it is dependant on that specific position.

So what may be strongest in one position might not necessarily be true in another position or range.

http://youtu.be/GCd5gjSnS7k

Bas Rutten showing a rough idea of how we use elbows and pak/slap parries, without opening up by raising elbows or chasing as he shows remarkably well, by slapping down in a panic. This panic reaction is what we, along with others, also attack. His use of the elbow in for body shots is our basic Jum sao at work.
We also maintain the elbows like this and the fist is VERTICAL , iow the fist angle is BECAUSE of the elbows angles, SLT is the only time we do this strange thing ;) If I raise my elbow horizontally my fist follows suit.

The idea I am introducing here is that we have a defensive ability from elbows held inward (SLT) and angling ( CK ) rather than turning the body too much and as shown getting a following punch for it. We have (BG) for being in a corner or on the 'ropes' with no movement available, we might duck to avoid a hook and slip too to regain a position. We can also deal with hooking swings as BR shows by maintaining distances that allows to add a slap to make the guy over rotate, rather than statue tan sao punch, which is not our way either. IOW I reap more rewards by allowing the opponent to move , over-swing, with a pak/slap parry and take the error he commits or continue if not, at distances to maintain defense.

The article touches on an idea from Jack Dempsey about a 'line of force' available in the same striking method, linear, elbow low defensive lines as BR clip, add mobility and angling and the same punches take on an alternating, cycling, angle, strike, defensive mobility, AKA Ving Tsun , just add low kicks and intent to attack once started to finish the guy.

If we combine strikes [facing squarer allows this] with parries we can see speed increased by combining attack and parry. At the boxing gym I teach and workout in, the coaches all admire the simple simultaneous parries, not fancy, just a slap parry and a punch in the same beat. Rather than parry ...hit...parry...hit. Jum sao aka elbow in blocking action, combined with striking,elbows in, in a seamless action, becomes a defensive ~ attacking action, capable of following the body punch back, from Lat sao jik chun drills of chi-sao. Add short force ideas....we have a goal to aim for.

WSL was noted to have mentioned that more boxers might adopt this centered striking method, but large gloves prevented the same results as mentioned in the article.

[k gledhill]

http://youtu.be/cHYtHyEx7Go

@18 sec you can see Philipp going over the jum sao and lat sao jik chun, using response to body blow with a follow up...just an example. The fists are vertical throughout ...elbow, elbow, elbow.

[Phil Redmond]

The simultaneous, mindless, lin sil di da, striking ideas don't work with raised elbows/horizontal fists.
It does work in many different styles. Wing Chun isn't the only style that uses LSDD.

[k gledhill]

It does work in many different styles. Wing Chun isn't the only style that uses LSDD.

I know of others, but not 'elbows in' as SLT. Da Sao Jik siu Sao.

[Phil Redmond]

I know of others, but not 'elbows in' as SLT. Da Sao Jik siu Sao.
Juk Lum Tong Long does it with a Phong Ngan Kuen and elbows "down".

[Phil Redmond]

The simultaneous, mindless, lin sil di da, striking ideas don't work with raised elbows/horizontal fists.
WCK can use LSDD with a vertical Biu Jee. Horizontal Biu Jee, Diagonal Biu Jee, with a horizontal fist providing your lineages uses them. To say what WC has and doesn't have can be tricky since NONE of us know ALL of Wing Chun. We just weren't there while it was being developed and neither were our Sifus or their Sifus. I can tell a story today and in a month it can be passed on differently by different people. I teach be smart, experiment. Use what is efficient and works. If people disagree then let them try to stop you. If you prevail against them who cares what they think. If they prevail. then re-evaluate your training. :)

[k gledhill]

SLT is the inception of the basic ability to fight using cycling arms with LSDD, way before we get to bil jee. BJ is simply a way to recover lost lines of interception, recover raised [horzntl ;)] elbows etc...

[imperialtaichi]

橫破直，直破橫。

Horizontal defeats the vertical, vertical defeats the horizontal.

Your opponent does not have a set style nor set way of fighting. We have to obey geometric efficiency. If we limit ourselves to doing things one way only, we are also limiting our effectiveness.

[Happy Tiger]

http://youtu.be/GCd5gjSnS7k

Bas Rutten showing a rough idea of how we use elbows and pak/slap parries, without opening up by raising elbows or chasing as he shows remarkably well, by slapping down in a panic. This panic reaction is what we, along with others, also attack. His use of the elbow in for body shots is our basic Jum sao at work.
We also maintain the elbows like this and the fist is VERTICAL , iow the fist angle is BECAUSE of the elbows angles, SLT is the only time we do this strange thing ;) If I raise my elbow horizontally my fist follows suit.

The idea I am introducing here is that we have a defensive ability from elbows held inward (SLT) and angling ( CK ) rather than turning the body too much and as shown getting a following punch for it. We have (BG) for being in a corner or on the 'ropes' with no movement available, we might duck to avoid a hook and slip too to regain a position. We can also deal with hooking swings as BR shows by maintaining distances that allows to add a slap to make the guy over rotate, rather than statue tan sao punch, which is not our way either. IOW I reap more rewards by allowing the opponent to move , over-swing, with a pak/slap parry and take the error he commits or continue if not, at distances to maintain defense.

The article touches on an idea from Jack Dempsey about a 'line of force' available in the same striking method, linear, elbow low defensive lines as BR clip, add mobility and angling and the same punches take on an alternating, cycling, angle, strike, defensive mobility, AKA Ving Tsun , just add low kicks and intent to attack once started to finish the guy.

If we combine strikes [facing squarer allows this] with parries we can see speed increased by combining attack and parry. At the boxing gym I teach and workout in, the coaches all admire the simple simultaneous parries, not fancy, just a slap parry and a punch in the same beat. Rather than parry ...hit...parry...hit. Jum sao aka elbow in blocking action, combined with striking,elbows in, in a seamless action, becomes a defensive ~ attacking action, capable of following the body punch back, from Lat sao jik chun drills of chi-sao. Add short force ideas....we have a goal to aim for.

WSL was noted to have mentioned that more boxers might adopt this centered striking method, but large gloves prevented the same results as mentioned in the article.
Interesting, the Bas's opinion on gaan sau . Particularly from a WSL perspective.

[LFJ]

Interesting, the Bas's opinion on gaan sau . Particularly from a WSL perspective.

There's the story that a man WSL was fighting dropped his whole body into the low strike. Yip Man told him he could have blocked it if he used gaansau.

In that situation, gaansau would have been safe because the opponent's whole body was low and he couldn't have made a threat toward the upper gate.

But what about a low punch from an opponent who remains upright? Dropping the hand could expose the upper gate, even if launching a simultaneous strike or attempting to angle. The opponent may continue attack of the upper gate, and it may take too long to raise the arm back up to have both arms for protection.

In my experience, I would continue to use jamsau in the way Bas shows in his video, coupled with a quick squat with the stance to adjust for the height of the attack without needing to drop a hand or overextend myself. This way both hands are up and available at all times, moving very little, essentially just making use of the stance and body.

I also use this jamsau action with a squat against straight kicks at various levels which effectively turns the opponent into an awkward position. I would likely only use gaansau against kicks at an opportune time to gain quick position on the opponent, but not so much against low punches as that leaves risk at the upper gate.

To defend against low punches, gaansau may be useful as recovery from for example a wrong bongsau, because it gets one to the outside where the opponent has limited use of their limbs due to the angle.

As a defense against low punches when squared off with an opponent, where neither have the upper hand, I would agree with Bas- use jamsau instead of gaansau.

[k gledhill]

There's the story that a man WSL was fighting dropped his whole body into the low strike. Yip Man told him he could have blocked it if he used gaansau.

In that situation, gaansau would have been safe because the opponent's whole body was low and he couldn't have made a threat toward the upper gate.

But what about a low punch from an opponent who remains upright? Dropping the hand could expose the upper gate, even if launching a simultaneous strike or attempting to angle. The opponent may continue attack of the upper gate, and it may take too long to raise the arm back up to have both arms for protection.

In my experience, I would continue to use jamsau in the way Bas shows in his video, coupled with a quick squat with the stance to adjust for the height of the attack without needing to drop a hand or overextend myself. This way both hands are up and available at all times, moving very little, essentially just making use of the stance and body.

I also use this jamsau action with a squat against straight kicks at various levels which effectively turns the opponent into an awkward position. I would likely only use gaansau against kicks at an opportune time to gain quick position on the opponent, but not so much against low punches as that leaves risk at the upper gate.

To defend against low punches, gaansau may be useful as recovery from for example a wrong bongsau, because it gets one to the outside where the opponent has limited use of their limbs due to the angle.

As a defense against low punches when squared off with an opponent, where neither have the upper hand, I would agree with Bas- use jamsau instead of gaansau.

good post. many vt dont use jum sao at all :confused:

[wingchunIan]

There's the story that a man WSL was fighting dropped his whole body into the low strike. Yip Man told him he could have blocked it if he used gaansau.

In that situation, gaansau would have been safe because the opponent's whole body was low and he couldn't have made a threat toward the upper gate.

But what about a low punch from an opponent who remains upright? Dropping the hand could expose the upper gate, even if launching a simultaneous strike or attempting to angle. The opponent may continue attack of the upper gate, and it may take too long to raise the arm back up to have both arms for protection.

In my experience, I would continue to use jamsau in the way Bas shows in his video, coupled with a quick squat with the stance to adjust for the height of the attack without needing to drop a hand or overextend myself. This way both hands are up and available at all times, moving very little, essentially just making use of the stance and body.

I also use this jamsau action with a squat against straight kicks at various levels which effectively turns the opponent into an awkward position. I would likely only use gaansau against kicks at an opportune time to gain quick position on the opponent, but not so much against low punches as that leaves risk at the upper gate.

To defend against low punches, gaansau may be useful as recovery from for example a wrong bongsau, because it gets one to the outside where the opponent has limited use of their limbs due to the angle.

As a defense against low punches when squared off with an opponent, where neither have the upper hand, I would agree with Bas- use jamsau instead of gaansau.

if you are human and don't compromise your fixed elbow distance (jum sao should be forwarding so that if nothing is met it becomes a punch) or posture then jum sao covers to a certain height fixed by the length of your upper arm, gang sau allows the area below that, between the waist and the elbow to be covered but equally provides a structured interception for body shots on the outside at the same height where jum doesn't work.

[Happy Tiger]

good post. many vt dont use jum sao at all :confused:
Good points. I'm glad WSL house has kept the extra jum sau in SNT. Nice position to strike vertical fist.

[LFJ]

if you are human and don't compromise your fixed elbow distance (jum sao should be forwarding so that if nothing is met it becomes a punch) or posture then jum sao covers to a certain height fixed by the length of your upper arm, gang sau allows the area below that, between the waist and the elbow to be covered but equally provides a structured interception for body shots on the outside at the same height where jum doesn't work.

A lot of people tend not to realize how useful the stance is in aiding the hands.

The same effect can also be achieved by making use of the stance. The quick squat as I described adjusts your height without compromising the fixed elbow distance or structure. It simply lowers your entire body structure to allow jamsau to cover the area that would have been between the waist and elbow.

It would seem WSL got hit by the low attack because he didn't sufficiently drop his stance along with his jamsau, so his jamsau couldn't cover that area. He probably realized it was still as useful as gaansau in defending low attacks like that, and therefore kept both in his SLT.

You can also turn and angle your body with the squat to defend low attacks from the outside without dropping either hand, in which case an outside jatsau action can be used.

Boxers sometimes have a similar approach to blocking body shots without dropping the hands, although their defensive actions don't have an offensive element to them. (See video below.)

I would rather use jamsau on the outside of the straight punch in order to turn it into a strike of my own, whereas this guy crosses which turns himself away and doesn't put him in that offensive position. He also doesn't make use of his stance by dropping or turning the way I'm describing.

For those reason and others, this is not a very good example, but if you use your imagination you can see how the VT actions would be used here. For low straight attacks use jamsau, on the outside shift into jatsau, employing the quick squat as needed to cover the area beneath the elbow. In both cases, the upper gate is not exposed and one can simultaneously attack and defend.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDDWCi_K4Uc

[k gledhill]

A lot of people tend not to realize how useful the stance is in aiding the hands.

The same effect can also be achieved by making use of the stance. The quick squat as I described adjusts your height without compromising the fixed elbow distance or structure. It simply lowers your entire body structure to allow jamsau to cover the area that would have been between the waist and elbow.

It would seem WSL got hit by the low attack because he didn't sufficiently drop his stance along with his jamsau, so his jamsau couldn't cover that area. He probably realized it was still as useful as gaansau in defending low attacks like that, and therefore kept both in his SLT.

You can also turn and angle your body with the squat to defend low attacks from the outside without dropping either hand, in which case an outside jatsau action can be used.

Boxers sometimes have a similar approach to blocking body shots without dropping the hands, although their defensive actions don't have an offensive element to them. (See video below.)

I would rather use jamsau on the outside of the straight punch in order to turn it into a strike of my own, whereas this guy crosses which turns himself away and doesn't put him in that offensive position. He also doesn't make use of his stance by dropping or turning the way I'm describing.

For those reason and others, this is not a very good example, but if you use your imagination you can see how the VT actions would be used here. For low straight attacks use jamsau, on the outside shift into jatsau, employing the quick squat as needed to cover the area beneath the elbow. In both cases, the upper gate is not exposed and one can simultaneously attack and defend.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDDWCi_K4Uc

The use of facing/angling is critical to making a functional use of our techniques.

[wingchunIan]

Completely agree with the use of angling, but not convinced at all by the idea of squating. I'd need to see it done effectively for real.

[k gledhill]

Completely agree with the use of angling, but not convinced at all by the idea of squating. I'd need to see it done effectively for real.

We dont squat down, all angling, distances...

[Frost]

and yet even with small gloves, which dont protect the hands as much and allow punches to slip through gaps you dont see any vertical punching or extended guard in MMA
Heck in sports with no gloves, like valetube in Brazil and bare knuckle irish boxing you dont see anything you are talking about, no extended guard and most of the punches are nothing like wing chun....
bare knuckle MMA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VikEh_XScVY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yg7ApD-V104&feature=related

irish bare knuckle boxing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5t5wgT8Svvc&feature=related

[k gledhill]

and yet even with small gloves, which dont protect the hands as much and allow punches to slip through gaps you dont see any vertical punching or extended guard in MMA
Heck in sports with no gloves, like valetube in Brazil and bare knuckle irish boxing you dont see anything you are talking about, no extended guard and most of the punches are nothing like wing chun....
bare knuckle MMA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VikEh_XScVY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yg7ApD-V104&feature=related

irish bare knuckle boxing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5t5wgT8Svvc&feature=related

You dont know what I am referring to with VT, so its hard for you to have an informed opinion with VT correlation.
Sure you WONT see it , thats what the article led us to see with the 'tests'. Its not natural to tuck elbows in acutely.
The vertical fist is a BY-PRODUCT of the elbows in with VT, not just a vertical punching hand.....why do I feel like I am on a mobius flip of conversation.

[LFJ]

Completely agree with the use of angling, but not convinced at all by the idea of squating. I'd need to see it done effectively for real.

If you think you understand my description above (just a quick down-up adjustment at the knees with jam-sau), try giving it a shot in the scenarios I mentioned and see how it turns out. I've been using it to great effect for years.

[LFJ]

Was watching this interview with Sifu Cliff Au-yeung and saw a close enough example of the quick squatting with jam-sau I was talking about. @6:00
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj0mei6qcfc

It doesn't have to be as deep or stick at the bottom. It's just a quick and subtle down-up action to change the height so jam-sau can cover the space between the hip and elbow and keep attacking.

It can be used against low strikes and straight kicks so as to keep both hands up ready to attack and defend, rather than dropping one hand in gaang-sau from which you'd need to recover while the opponent may still have both hands attacking high.

[Paul T England]

Great posts guys...

I am always unsure about the history and stats as people put the over. 90% of fights go to the ground, Filipino infuence on boxing etc

Do we have any evidence that the Filipinos influenced the change from vertical punching to horizontal punching. I think it was just the gloves and rules.

Also I don't think dropping/squatting the stance a bit goes against wing chun and I have seen that in Ip Mans Foshan Students and other lines. Better to change level then chase the hands.

LSJC is much easier with the elbow down and from close range contact.

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

[wingchunIan]

and yet even with small gloves, which dont protect the hands as much and allow punches to slip through gaps you dont see any vertical punching or extended guard in MMA
Heck in sports with no gloves, like valetube in Brazil and bare knuckle irish boxing you dont see anything you are talking about, no extended guard and most of the punches are nothing like wing chun....
bare knuckle MMA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VikEh_XScVY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yg7ApD-V104&feature=related

irish bare knuckle boxing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5t5wgT8Svvc&feature=related

Not exactly great examples. The irish bare knuckle boxers will have learnt to fight in a conventional boxing gym or will have been taught by someone who did. You fight the way you train so of course two kids fighting in the street are going to fight the same way that they have been taught.

The vale tudo guys similarly will have been taught by a boxing coach / MT coach. Fighting styles change over time based on those that are successful, as boxing changed from the old bare knuckle extended hands to the earmuff defence of today over decades so MMA will change with time as fighters and coaches modify their training to suit the environment. The blend of styles has already changed, the next evolution will be the development of striking skills specifically for the arena in question.

[GlennR]

Not exactly great examples. The irish bare knuckle boxers will have learnt to fight in a conventional boxing gym or will have been taught by someone who did. You fight the way you train so of course two kids fighting in the street are going to fight the same way that they have been taught.

The vale tudo guys similarly will have been taught by a boxing coach / MT coach. Fighting styles change over time based on those that are successful, as boxing changed from the old bare knuckle extended hands to the earmuff defence of today over decades so MMA will change with time as fighters and coaches modify their training to suit the environment. The blend of styles has already changed, the next evolution will be the development of striking skills specifically for the arena in question.

Good post.

Funny how a lot of guys are now trying Mayweathers shoulder roll style in boxing now....... its all about copying who is succesful

[k gledhill]

Good post.

Funny how a lot of guys are now trying Mayweathers shoulder roll style in boxing now....... its all about copying who is succesful

Mayweathers shoulder roll is like a rear wu/pak . He also uses a 'lan sao' action as a block ( high to the neck ) and another 'jum like' elbow lower, same ideas, more like Blauers ' flinch wedge' ...he uses double palm aka po-pais to push a guy off into more punches as we do.

[Kevin73]

Horizontal v. Vertical Punching History of Punching

Little is known about the guard used by fighters and fighting rules before the great English pugilist Jack Broughton, a student of James Figg, devised the Broughton Rules in 1743. Broughton also invented "mufflers" (padded gloves), which were used in training and exhibitions. Under the Broughton Rules, not much was considered illegal when compared to the London Prize Ring Rules so a higher guard and quicker stance was necessary. There were no limitations against butting, gouging, kicking, or hitting below the belt. The rules mostly just kept a boxing match from becoming a wrestling match.

Until the use of gloves became common, pugilists struck mostly with a vertical fist because it was considered less injurious to the fist to hit with a vertical fist than a horizontal one, especially when using hooks or swinging punches. However, they used a horizontal fist when the target warranted it, such as to the side of the neck. The vertical fist was thought to have a greater range, but, in fact, the arm's reach does not get longer just because the fist is rotated 90 degrees, unless you make some other body adjustment.

Due to the confrontations American soldiers had with Filipino natives in the Philippines during the Spanish-American War in 1898, the guard was raised from the low knuckles downward position to the higher knuckles forward position. When engaged in hand-to-hand combat, the Filipinos would slash the wrists of the extended arms of the American soldiers.
The wearing of gloves in a boxing match is a fairly modern innovation. Prior to 1866, when the Marquis of Queensbury Rules made the wearing of gloves mandatory, boxers fought bare-knuckled. Gloves, or “mufflers” as they were called, were used only in sparring. One may think that fighting bare-knuckled, would cause significant damage to the fist. A common injury among modern boxers is the “boxer’s fracture,” in which the outer two knuckles, and sometimes the outer metacarpals of the hand are broken from the impact of an unprotected punch. Many boxing greats have broken their fists in this way when engaging in street fights.



Unless someone has definitive proof of the bolded statement, it is urban myth used by the filipino arts give a boost to themselves. Were there some fighters who had an extended guard in a knife fight and had their hands cut, probably. But, if you look at historical manuals in the 1850's (The Art and Practice of Boxing for one) you will see the "Full Guard" used to protect both sides of the head/chest/rib area that looks like the modern guard. Most of the pictures we see with a boxer standing there with his arm outstretched were stylized photos and not representative of how they actually fought. Boxing modified somethings as rules were changed, for example, the hook punch was rarely used because it was a close in blow and left the person open to being thrown, this changed when throws and grappling were banned. The guard changed as well since padded fists allowed more and harder head punches, so boxers developed around that rule set. It had nothing to do with Americans being in the Phillipines. In fact, the ONLY place I have seen this claim is from Panantukan website promoting Filipino boxing.

This goes hand in hand with the two other partial truths regarding Filipino martial arts. 1) That the .45 was developed ONLY because of the ferocity of the Filipino fighter, and 2) That the Marines were called Leathernecks because the Filipino's would try and cut their throats so they wore leather gorget's to protect themselves.

This is also the case with the horizontal vs. vertical punch. In many styles you trained the whole motion from chamber and as it turns you are training three different punches based on distancing. Close in it is an inverted punch (palm up) middle distance is a vertical punch and ****hest distance is a horizontal punch (palm down). Each punch had it's uses and strategies. Certain styles focused on a particular idea or range and adapted a punch best suited for that concept. In the case of Wing Chun, the vertical punch lands the best anatomically to the face. If I am targeting the pressure point just below the pectorals (like in Goju-Ryu) than the horiztonal punch makes more sense. If I am targeting the solar plexus, than a 3/4 or vertical punch will fit in better and so forth.

Anatomically, if you relax your arm completely and lift it, your hand will be in a 3/4 or diamond punch configuration, which is the strongest position of the two, due to the bones in the forearm and connective tissues.

[Eric_H]

Some vertical punchers say their punch is faster because there is no twist. If we assume this is true, how much faster is it? Sparring is not drag racing or downhill ski racing, it not judged by thousandths of a second. A few hundredths of a second in speed will not make any difference in whether a punch is blocked or not blocked so the hand is quicker than the eye. Once you see a fist move, it is too late to block or avoid it. To block or avoid a punch, you must detect the punch before it moves by reading the opponent's body language. Therefore, a punch that strikes harder will be more effective than one that is a millisecond faster.


Logical failure, as a vertical punch is harder to detect.



橫破直，直破橫。
Your opponent does not have a set style nor set way of fighting. We have to obey geometric efficiency.

Smartest GD statement I've ever seen come out of this forum.

[GlennR]

Mayweathers shoulder roll is like a rear wu/pak . He also uses a 'lan sao' action as a block ( high to the neck ) and another 'jum like' elbow lower, same ideas, more like Blauers ' flinch wedge' ...he uses double palm aka po-pais to push a guy off into more punches as we do.

Nicely spotted Kev

Hard style to pull of though as Berto learnt a few weeks ago

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xvd1ai_andre-berto-vs-robert-guerrero-full-fight-part-2_lifestyle#.UMeeGOTCZ8E

[k gledhill]

Nicely spotted Kev

Hard style to pull of though as Berto learnt a few weeks ago

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xvd1ai_andre-berto-vs-robert-guerrero-full-fight-part-2_lifestyle#.UMeeGOTCZ8E

I show wsl pb vt ideas to boxers and coaches in the gym I train in, all like it. The simultaneous actions, etc...

[Frost]

Not exactly great examples. The irish bare knuckle boxers will have learnt to fight in a conventional boxing gym or will have been taught by someone who did. You fight the way you train so of course two kids fighting in the street are going to fight the same way that they have been taught.

The vale tudo guys similarly will have been taught by a boxing coach / MT coach. Fighting styles change over time based on those that are successful, as boxing changed from the old bare knuckle extended hands to the earmuff defence of today over decades so MMA will change with time as fighters and coaches modify their training to suit the environment. The blend of styles has already changed, the next evolution will be the development of striking skills specifically for the arena in question.

most of the early vale tudo fights in brazil and the early ufcs were guys who had no boxing training, they came from traditional backgrounds and yet when they started actually looking for barehand knockout punches they started using swinging punches, overhands and wide hooks not vertical straight shots, and whilst some of the irish bare knuckle guys have some boxing training most dont, you can watch any fight and see they are just tough guys going at it and they are using wide hooks and overhands as well

as for the evolution in MMA its happening now to an extend you are seeing alot fighters moving towards a more dutch style of thai standup in stead of the usual boxing or traditional thai style: this means less use of the jab and cross, less use of head movement: bobbing and weaving etc, more use of a high guard to absorb the strikes and moving backwards or circling off line in defence. In attack level changes or slipping and stepping off line is used to set up your strikes

Hooks, overhands and uppercuts are thrown a lot, the hooks are to the head and thrown at a longer distance than a normal boxing hook , they are also angled to the body like a shovel hook, overhands whip in and down and the upperhook is also used a lot but it’s a longer range uppercut you punch it forward and up with the little finger facing the opponent and most combinations were finished with a hard low roundhouse.

If the jab is used it’s a stiff whole body punch like a straight left,

The reason for all the above according to a few MMA coaches i work with is that is that weak straight shots (and even strong crosses) are easy to follow into the clinch or walk through and short hooks and upper cuts are too much in clinch range, you want to hit them hard with every strike because you only got a few changes before clinch range is hit, you want to throw their timing off by hitting from all sorts of angles so they don’t know what is coming and at a range long enough that they cant clinch the body easy and get punished everytime they try to come in

So the evolution is happening but its not moving towards the tight straight vertical punch, its moving i the opposite direction if anything

[k gledhill]

A good example of VT vertical strikes was seen in the recent UFC 155 Wineland v Pickett , Joe Rogan praising Wineland for throwing , I quote " Wing chun /Bruce lee JKD type vertical punches" to dominate and win the fight. Wineland had an upright 'chin up' VT like stance, unlike a boxer style (Pickett) who walked into a lot of strikes. Wineland used the direct lines to strike along with mobility and angles to counter Picketts hooks, uppercuts and overhand swings. Winelands mobility shutting down clinching.