Martial Arts Instructor Refused in UK

[stoic]

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/martial-arts-expert-and-former-navy-seal-banned-from-entering-the-uk-he-teaches-extreme-and-violent-self-defense-that-is-unwelcome-here/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18002220

No more self-defense and martial arts are allowed in the UK if the methods taught are violent and extreme (whatever those terms mean)?

I suppose this raises some questions that all martial artists must answer for themselves. If you must defend yourself from an attacker, how much force should be used to neutralize the threat? Can you use violence to thwart violence? Obviously, the law does not allow the defender to become the aggressor, but, should lethal force and violent intent be thwarted with with non-lethal force? Does someone's desire to harm you using force open the door to using violent force against them?

[Lucas]

Does someone's desire to harm you using force open the door to using violent force against them?

I believe so, personally. I'd rather sit being judged before of a jury of my peers than resting amongst my peers in the morgue.

Of course its all situational. Being able to make that decision depending on circumstances is an important part of the defense process imo. at what point do you give up your desire to appease the law in order to prevent permanent damage or death?

[sanjuro_ronin]

People that lack confidence in their skills are the ones that take it to the "extreme".
Yes there is a place in the MA for deadly techniques, but the VAST, VAST majority of times that is NOT the case.
I've seen guys with guns get KO'd with a simple punch and, threat eliminated.
No need to crush throats or stomp on necks.
But this is just BS.
They have "knife fighting" seminars in the UK don't they? FMA seminars no?

[David Jamieson]

UK is intolerant of violence because of so much senseless violence that happens there.

RBSD and teachers of the reality of violence aren't gonna be looked at in the same way as someone who is teaching a perceived antiquated art form.

That's how it is there.

[sanjuro_ronin]

UK is intolerant of violence because of so much senseless violence that happens there.

RBSD and teachers of the reality of violence aren't gonna be looked at in the same way as someone who is teaching a perceived antiquated art form.

That's how it is there.

What about the RBSD guys already there?

[David Jamieson]

What about the RBSD guys already there?

What can they do about them? They're citizens, they keep it on the down low.

I know a couple of guys who are active in this in UK. It is presented in a different format than what is presented here. Very structured, very open, not a lot of trash talk the likes of which we see here from various "monsters" "animals" "shredders" etc :rolleyes:

The emphasis is placed on awareness of surroundings and the psychology of dealing with violence. I think the marketing that Larkin was using was probably what got him in the soup.

[David Jamieson]

For what it's worth, the material is worth understanding.
Rory Miller has an approach to this that I find interesting and refreshing.

I am such a slacker and have to catch up on my reading.... lol

[GETHIN]

I wonder if he would have been banned, had there had not been so much emphasis on the fact that he would specifically be visiting the scenes of last years riots in the UK...?

[GeneChing]

U.S. martial arts expert banned from entering Britain over fears his 'kill or be killed' teachings could incite vigilante violence (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2141817/U-S-martial-arts-expert-banned-entering-Britain--kill-killed-teachings-incite-vigilante-violence.html)
By Keith Gladdis and Tom Leonard
PUBLISHED: 07:09 EST, 9 May 2012 | UPDATED: 08:57 EST, 10 May 2012

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/05/09/article-2141817-1300C49A000005DC-588_306x381.jpg
Banned: Tim Larkin is not welcome in Britain because of his self-defence teachings

An American martial arts expert who teaches how to inflict ‘crippling pain’ on attackers has been banned from entering the UK.

Home Secretary Theresa May refused to allow Tim Larkin into the country amid fears his ‘kill or be killed’ philosophy could encourage vigilante violence.

The former military intelligence officer and expert in hand-to-hand combat had been planning a tour of areas that had been hit hardest during last year’s riots.

He was due to teach classes in the London area of Tottenham, where the violence started, and appear at the Martial Arts Show in Birmingham.

But when Mr Larkin, 47, tried to board a flight in Las Vegas, he was handed a letter from the UK Border Agency saying he had been excluded from Britain.

Despite having visited Britain three years ago, Mr Larkin was told his presence in the UK was now not ‘conducive to the public good’.

He joins Moonie cult leader Sun Myung Moon, Nation of Islam minister Louis Farrakhan and American white supremacist Dennis Mahon in being denied access to Britain.

Mr Larkin, who says he has trained corporate and civilian clients in New York, Las Vegas and London, claimed the exclusion was a ‘gross over-reaction’.

He said: ‘It says there’s no right of appeal. I have a lot of support over in the UK. I have people I can go to. There are Members of Parliament I’m sure I can go to, and maybe this can be reconsidered.

‘I think it’s a gross over-reaction, especially with some of the people who are allowed to come in and out of the UK.

‘There is nothing outrageous about it, there’s nothing that I’m going around to incite violence or to incite vigilantism – that’s a characterisation of the people who hear my opinions on self-defence.’

Plans: Tim Larkin, pictured here in a lesson, wanted to hold a series of seminars in riot hit areas of Britain

HOW TO BREAK AN ATTACKER'S SPINE WITH 'DEADLY FORCE'

Tim Larkin claims his controversial techniques have been adopted by US special forces including the elite Navy Seals unit that killed Osama bin Laden.

His book, How to Survive: The Most Critical Five Seconds of Your Life, describes how to inflict ‘crippling pain’ on an attacker.

Chapters such as Violence is About Injury, Why you Must Learn to Kill and Kill it Simple, Stupid emphasise the need to use ‘deadly force’.

His Target Focus Training website carries videos of instructors teaching students how to break the spine and elbow of an attacker.

Students are also taught to punch an attacker so hard that a rib will break into the internal organs and hit the spine.

Larkin also reveals a technique that involves kicking an attacker hard enough to disable him by rupturing his testicles.

The power of a Home Secretary to ban individuals from the UK has caused controversy, with critics saying it has not been used consistently.

American radio host Michael Savage threatened to sue former Home Secretary Jacqui Smith when his name was included in a list of people not welcome in the UK.

BANNED FROM BRITAIN:

Various criminals, celebrities, sports stars and religious extremists have in the past been banned from entering Britain. Here are a few:

* American rapper Snoop Dogg was barred from entering the UK in March 2007 by the then Home Office minister John Reid after his involvement in a mass brawl at Heathrow.

* In the early years of the Cold War, Childen poet Pablo Neruda, singer Paul Robeson and composer Dimitry Shostakovich were refused entry for a peace conference in 1950.

* Moonie cult leader Sun Myung Moon, Nation of Islam minister Louis Farrakhan, American white supremacist Dennis Mahon have all been denied access.

* Osama bin Laden's son Omar was banned from entering Britain to live with his new wife in 2008 because of fears his presence might cause 'public concern'.

Muslim cleric Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi, who had defended suicide attacks, was refused a visa but only after being a guest at City Hall of former London mayor Ken Livingstone.

Islamic preacher Zakir Naik who claimed ‘every Muslim should be a terrorist’ was banned from Britain but still addressed the Oxford Union via a video link.

And Jamaican reggae singer Bounty Killer (real name Rodney Pryce) was allowed to perform in the UK despite using lyrics which encourage the murder of ****sexuals and promote gang culture.

A Home Office spokesman said: ‘We can confirm that the individual in question is subject to an exclusion order. The Home Secretary will seek to exclude an individual if she considers that his or her presence in the UK is not conducive to the public good.’

West Lancashire MP Rosie Cooper had warned the Government about Mr Larkin’s visit.

She said: ‘I’m grateful to the Home Secretary for taking the appropriate action and not allowing this man into our country. He teaches extreme and violent self defence that is unwelcome here.

‘The decision to bar Mr Larkin from the UK demonstrates the value of constant alertness when it comes to border controls.’
At least he's in good company...:rolleyes:

[Lucas]

i'm betting his book sales sky rocket after this. i didnt know it existed and now i'll probably pick it up.

[Subitai]

(Speaking from the TIRED OLD SOAP BOX)

Speaking sarcastically, and surprised it hasn't been said yet:

Who's Tim Larkin?

Has he proved that his deadly Special forces Spine snapping techniques actually work in the Octagon? How many Spines has he snapped?

blah blah

Wow, even I hate myself for bringing up those tired old Knifefighter digs.

Seriously, people can learn to make bombs over the internet and the UK is worried about this guy???

What the heck is wrong with me today? haha.

[Lucas]

(Speaking from the TIRED OLD SOAP BOX)

Speaking sarcastically, and surprised it hasn't been said yet:

Who's Tim Larkin?

Has he proved that his deadly Special forces Spine snapping techniques actually work in the Octagon? How many Spines has he snapped?

blah blah

Wow, even I hate myself for bringing up those tired old Knifefighter digs.

Seriously, people can learn to make bombs over the internet and the UK is worried about this guy???

What the heck is wrong with me today? haha.

you're being entirely to logical and realistic.

[IronFist]

BREAK AN ATTACKER'S SPINE WITH DEADLY FORCE

Well that's the problem right there.

He needs to teach how to break an attacker's spine with peaceful force.

[Lee Chiang Po]

If you look at the history of the brits over the centuries, you will see that violence is pretty much what they did, but they did it to other people. They tend to be their own worst enemies at times.

[Ben Gash]

UK is intolerant of violence because of so much senseless violence that happens there.

RBSD and teachers of the reality of violence aren't gonna be looked at in the same way as someone who is teaching a perceived antiquated art form.

That's how it is there.

Um, what? (looks outside, birds singing, children playing).

The emphasis is placed on awareness of surroundings and the psychology of dealing with violence.
The important stuff you mean?

[Ben Gash]

Seriously, people can learn to make bombs over the internet and the UK is worried about this guy???
We take people trying to work here illegally very seriously ;)

[David Jamieson]

Um, what? (looks outside, birds singing, children playing).

The important stuff you mean?

lol.

Yes, the violence comes and goes I suppose. But nevertheless, UK gov and police are not open arms to it.

I have no doubt this guy will find a way to capitalize on this situation.

So deadly, it's banned in the UK or some other such rot.

Kill or be killed is for the foreign legion, not something you dole out to sprots interested in karate moves or a better way to take guard or some such thing.

[taai gihk yahn]

"Students are also taught to punch an attacker so hard that a rib will break into the internal organs and hit the spine."

if anything, they should have banned him for anatomical fabrication; I'd be really interested in how he manages to get ribs to break and penetrate posteriorly to hit "t3h sp1ne"...(ribs can pierce organs when fractured, but it depends on a lot of kinematic variables that wud have to be just right, making it rather improbable)

[LFJ]

I believe so, personally. I'd rather sit being judged before of a jury of my peers than resting amongst my peers in the morgue.

Better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6.

[JamesC]

Chuck Norris.

[rett]

How innovative or different can his actual moves really be?

I get the impression he's selling a mindset. Trying to teach people not to have a defensive attitude, but counteract aggressively and with true stopping power.

That's common sense if you think about it, at least for truly dangerous situations. And I guess it takes some special scenario-based training to get the hang of it.

So Britain seems mostly to be reacting to the rhetoric. Destructive physical moves are taught all over the place. I've been shown how to break someone's neck at a tai chi class in nanny-state Sweden, for goodness sake. The teacher just doesn't mention it in the blurb in the community-center catalogue.

To be honest, the more I check out this guy's site, the more I think Britain is doing the right thing. Or at least I can't criticize them. Even if he says this training makes people less violent, I feel his marketing will attract som inappropriate people. Not criminals perhaps, but low-self-esteem vigilante wannabees who will end up putting themselves into a situation where they're "forced" to defend themselves.

[RenDaHai]

I agree with Rett above.

Its not at all about what he's teaching, we have plenty of that in England, its the way he is advertising it.

Remember there were very serious riots last year, and when you have a seminar which is specifically advertising killing technique as opposed to just self defence, well, its a little bit unsalubrious. Its not the right image.

If he was teaching exactly the same thing, but worded it a little more politically it would be fine. There is a lot of pressure on the government this summer to look like they are doing everything they can to avoid a repeat of last year.

I'm not saying this would incite riots, off course it wouldn't, I'm just saying its political.


'Rib hitting the spine'?? Surely split second self defence is about high percentage moves... This has got to be a 1 in a million strike.

[David Jamieson]

God, marketing is predictable...

http://www.targetfocustraining.com/

lol, what a wanker.

[Shaolin]

HOW TO BREAK AN ATTACKER'S SPINE WITH 'DEADLY FORCE'

Are you serious? This is the type of guy I remember back in the 90's like Paul Vunak who would take out full page, black and white, text only ads in martial arts magazines claiming Learn to Beat Any Black Belt. This guy needs to hire a marketing consultant. Maybe if he didn't sound so apocalyptic he wouldn't be banned from an entire country like a terrorist.

[David Jamieson]

He's literally "one of those".

:p

[bawang]

it caters to passive aggresive weak people who feel powerless and want to feel they have control over their lives.

[David Jamieson]

it caters to passive aggresive weak people who feel powerless and want to feel they have control over their lives.

You said you did Tai Chi though...

[bawang]

nope.

asdasda

[Yum Cha]

So, an ex Navy Seal eye gouger, spine breaker and flesh ripper is of course going to be so much more effective than a TCMA eye gouger, spine breaker and flesh ripper, because he can teach it in a weekend seminar!....:rolleyes:

<facepalm> Hey, at least its not on TCMA this time....




(Speaking from the TIRED OLD SOAP BOX)

Speaking sarcastically, and surprised it hasn't been said yet:

Who's Tim Larkin?

Has he proved that his deadly Special forces Spine snapping techniques actually work in the Octagon? How many Spines has he snapped?

blah blah

Wow, even I hate myself for bringing up those tired old Knifefighter digs.

Seriously, people can learn to make bombs over the internet and the UK is worried about this guy???

What the heck is wrong with me today? haha.

[David Jamieson]

nope.

asdasda

that's lacist bawang. :p

[gongfupanda]

What's the worst case? You want the police knocking on your door telling your family you've been hospitalized or would you rather they said you'd been arrested? Know what I'd pick