What does "internal" mean to you?

[IronFist]

I think a lot of the confusion we've been having on the forums is because people have different definitions of what "internal" means.

So let's discuss what "internal" means.

Not "what should it mean" or "what would a better definition be," but when you hear "internal" in reference to martial arts, what does it mean to you?

Here are some examples of the word "internal" in reference to martial arts:

- Taiji, Bagua, and Xingyi are internal arts
- The man was practicing internal iron palm
- This form has an internal component
- This technique develops internal strength


Here is a more complete definition of the "having to do with qi" poll choice. I am confident that most people know what I mean, but a few people are going to try and play "it depends on what your definition of 'is' is" with it, so this clarification is necessary:

Having to do with qi - "Qi" as in "mystical force," specifically being different than doing the same movement without the "internal" component. For example, an external palm strike vs. an "internal" palm strike where you consciously direct qi into your hand to change the effect of the strike. Or any movement or technique that is somehow made different by the manipulation of qi in the movement, compared to performing the same movement with the same form, structure, and breath patterns, but without modification by qi.



To me, "internal" has a distinct reference to "qi."

And wikipedia agrees with me:


Nèijiā (Chinese: 內家; literally "internal school") is a term in Chinese martial arts, grouping those styles that practice nèijìng (Chinese: 內勁; literally "internal strength"), usually translated as internal martial arts, occupied with spiritual, mental or qi-related aspects, as opposed to an "external" (Chinese: 外; pinyin: wài) approach focused on physiological aspects. The distinction dates to the 17th century, but its modern application is due to publications by Sun Lutang, dating to the period of 1915 to 1928. Nèijìng is developed by using "nèigōng" (內功), or "internal exercises," as opposed to "wàigōng" (外功), "external exercises."

Source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neijia

Proper breathing and proper structure may be necessary in order to manipulate the mystic energy of qi, but proper breathing and proper structure alone do not make something internal.

For example, I have good form when I bench press. And I breathe correctly, exhaling as I press the weight up. Does that mean I bench press internally? Of course not. It just means I know how to bench press with correct technique. It is still an external bench press.

If I were to bench press with incorrect form, such as rounding my shoulders and inhaling while I press the weight up, that would still be an external bench press; just one done with incorrect form.

Now, if I were to summon my qi and use that to lift the bar, quantifiably different than just using my muscles like a normal person, then that would be an internal bench press.

After you vote in the poll, answer this question if you want:

How is an "internal" art or technique different than an "external" art or technique?

My answer: "internal" means modified by qi. An "internal" punch is a punch in which qi is moved into the fist to change the effect of the strike. An "internal" martial art is an art that focuses on the development and use of qi power in a martial context. An "external" punch is a punch without modification by qi, eg., how a boxer punches. An "external" art is an art that does not train or manipulate qi power, for example, boxing, Muay Thai, or playing guitar. Boxing with correct form is still external boxing. Playing guitar at a master level without thinking about the notes you are going to play is still external guitar playing, it's just unconscious competence. It's good "kung fu."

What does "internal" mean do you?

[ShaolinDan]

To me internal has to do with a way of approaching all of the above points. Internal is a path, not an end. It means to work from the inside out instead of the outside in. It's just a concept whose meaning is relative to its context.

[taai gihk yahn]

having done both, so-called internal and external, IMPE, internal is where one is concerned w the subjective quality of one's movement rather than with the outwards manifestation; so when doing the taiji form, it's less important that one "looks" a certain way then it is for one to "feel" a certain way - the connection of movement from one to another, the subjective sensations of tension in the body, etc.; meaning it's not about conforming to an external set of criteria (lining up the hand precisely w a given body part), but rather that, by feeling the internal relationships, one will necessarily achieve "correct" alignment - of course, this can be aided by an external feedback loop of watching the teacher or being positioned in proper alignment, but these are just training wheels to get to an internally driven sense of "correct" function;

it also relates to what drives the movement / the point from where movement originates; for example, when starting the taiji form, at what point does one begin to raise one's hands, that is, what is the "internal" cue from the body that generates the raising?

when one practices internal, one learns to "listen" to the feelings / rhythms of the body which then informs the context and quality of the movement; this is not some mystical qualification: I am talking about attuning one's proprioception to things like ground reaction force in response to movement (including respiratory biomechanics), having a sense regarding the relationship of fluidic movement in the body (arterial, venous, lymphatic), having an awareness of non-contractile connective tissue during movement of body segments relative to each other and to tensional relationships in total; being able to engage a robust parasympathetic response "at will"; of course, u find this in other disicplines in various ways - yogic asana and pranayama practice is one example of "internal" practice, IMPO;

[SPJ]

For me, it is all in perspective.

We may examine or look at things from outside in.

Or inside out.

Peace out.

[Lee Chiang Po]

I think it might apply to most of the above in some way or another. In your description of bench pressing, you spoke of breathing and the way you exhale on the lift. Well, that is the internal aspect of bench pressing. The act of doing so mechanically is external, but you do the exhale to focus your energy and strength into the lift whereby the abdomen constricts. Chi or Qi is so simple a thing, but it is probably the most misunderstood aspect of what we do. It is not some mystical power or energy that can be directed at an enemy so as to strike him without touching him. That is BS and impossible to do. Until people get that out of their heads they will never understand it.
About 35 years ago I worked in a print shop running an old platten press. The chase, the part where you lock up the type and such, must have weighed about 75 pounds and was held in by a steel lever that was also spring loaded. I ran a particular press for a long time, then one day I was moved to another one. Everyone used a roll bar to pry the lever up to release or lock up the chase, but I used the heel of my right palm to tap it up just enough to release it. Well, that day I walked over to the press to lock up the chase on my first run and when I tapped it with my palm heel It broke off and shot up through the ceiling and came back down about 15 feet over across the room. It popped like a rifle shot. The thing was that it was adjusted with a shorter throw then my press and it bottomed out while I was applying the tap. I was putting enough power into the tap to have cause a lot of damage to a person had I applied it to him, but it took me and those around me by surprise. I had been doing this for so long that I had developed a strong Qi stroke. I can stand and wave my hands at you all day and you will not feel a thing, but if I were to punch you there would be a flood of emotions.

[IronFist]

I think it might apply to most of the above in some way or another. In your description of bench pressing, you spoke of breathing and the way you exhale on the lift. Well, that is the internal aspect of bench pressing. The act of doing so mechanically is external, but you do the exhale to focus your energy and strength into the lift whereby the abdomen constricts.

Strongly disagree. There is no "internal" aspect of bench pressing. It uses a proper form and breath control, but since there is no qi component, there is no internal aspect. IMO, of course.

So in your opinion, what is the distinction between "internal" and "external" martial arts? If proper form and breathing is all it takes to make something "internal," then in Western boxing internal? What about shotokan karate, or savate?

And, would you then argue that Taiji, Bagua, and HsingYi are no more "internal" than Wing Chun or Western boxing? After all, both have specific form and breathing techniques.

[IronFist]

You guys (not LCP) are giving vague answers and then not explaining the difference between an "internal" and "external" martial art and how it fits into your definition of "internal".

[taai gihk yahn]

You guys (not LCP) are giving vague answers and then not explaining the difference between an "internal" and "external" martial art and how it fits into your definition of "internal".

how is what I described vague?

I gave u my direct experience of internal practice as compared to external, even providing a physiological correlate;

it may not b the definition u like, but it appears that u also seem to think that "qi" is not involved in so-called external practice, which frankly makes no real sense, seeing as u can't have any movement at all without "qi" being involved; of course, internal works with "qi" differently than external, but they both have it - it's just a matter of what u r focusing on: so if I am trianing stances in "external" practice, it's basically isometric work; when I train standing for internal, I am looking for something very different, specifically, the degree to which I can have a detailed expereince regarding how I can feel my postural system organizing in gravity - it's building inner awareness; and from this awareness, u move in a way that when u don't have this awareness, you don't; if u have experienced this qualitative difference, then u know what I am taking about; if u haven't, then u don't;

[YouKnowWho]

Taiji was my 1st style. I learned it when I was 7 years old. At that time, I didn't know anything about "external". To me, "internal" is just the right way to do thing. Even today, when people mention, "tense", "brute force", ... I still don't know what they are talking about. To me, "Sung (soft)" and "borrow force" are just "common sense" and there is nothing worth to talke about it.

I hate people who talks about "internal" this and "internal" that. It's just like bread and butter. You will never brag about how good bread and butter tasted.

[pazman]

Internal and external are false dichotomies.

Not answering poll.:cool:

[bawang]

You guys (not LCP) are giving vague answers and then not explaining the difference between an "internal" and "external" martial art and how it fits into your definition of "internal".

taijiquan has a lot of defensive versions of northern techniques. most northern martial arts have some defensive techniques but not as much as taijiquan.

[David Jamieson]

having done both, so-called internal and external, IMPE, internal is where one is concerned w the subjective quality of one's movement rather than with the outwards manifestation; so when doing the taiji form, it's less important that one "looks" a certain way then it is for one to "feel" a certain way - the connection of movement from one to another, the subjective sensations of tension in the body, etc.; meaning it's not about conforming to an external set of criteria (lining up the hand precisely w a given body part), but rather that, by feeling the internal relationships, one will necessarily achieve "correct" alignment - of course, this can be aided by an external feedback loop of watching the teacher or being positioned in proper alignment, but these are just training wheels to get to an internally driven sense of "correct" function;

it also relates to what drives the movement / the point from where movement originates; for example, when starting the taiji form, at what point does one begin to raise one's hands, that is, what is the "internal" cue from the body that generates the raising?

when one practices internal, one learns to "listen" to the feelings / rhythms of the body which then informs the context and quality of the movement; this is not some mystical qualification: I am talking about attuning one's proprioception to things like ground reaction force in response to movement (including respiratory biomechanics), having a sense regarding the relationship of fluidic movement in the body (arterial, venous, lymphatic), having an awareness of non-contractile connective tissue during movement of body segments relative to each other and to tensional relationships in total; being able to engage a robust parasympathetic response "at will"; of course, u find this in other disicplines in various ways - yogic asana and pranayama practice is one example of "internal" practice, IMPO;

^ This. I concur with this.

He's smart eh? :p

wordy bugger too...

[David Jamieson]

You guys (not LCP) are giving vague answers and then not explaining the difference between an "internal" and "external" martial art and how it fits into your definition of "internal".

internal= fine tuning the qualities of motion through perception of the minutia and manipulation and regulation of same through continued practice.

external = the resulting structure & expressed forces from the structure, which in turn is the release platform for the kinetic force generated by the platform.

This is a very basic model of it, for more depth, refer to TGY's statement.

I would add from a personal perspective that you cannot do all this without unity of being. For me, I view it more holistically and see it as a fully functioning thing. But when studying and developing the machine as you live your life, you have to visit smaller chunks of learning.

It get's broken down into categories of work required to produce a result desired. Some of that work is muscle building and bone density creation. Some of it is how you step and the rhythm of breathing that best facilitates that motion or immobility. And so on through a huge selection of exercises that are used for building and maintaining the machine that is you.

[wenshu]

Internal and external are false dichotomies.

Not answering poll.:cool:

Stop being vague.

[ShaolinDan]

There's no way to talk about internal without being vague. It's metaphorical/allegorical concept, not a thing. Like the Chinese notion of hard/soft. Or Yin/yang. Their vagueness is what allows them to be universal--it's poetic.





By Me:
To me internal has to do with a way of approaching all of the above points. Internal is a path, not an end. It means to work from the inside out instead of the outside in. It's just a concept whose meaning is relative to its context.


For me, it is all in perspective.

We may examine or look at things from outside in.

Or inside out.

Peace out.

[LivingArt]

I voted having to do with qi, but my definition of qi is different. To me qi is your state of being, and isn't mystical in any sense. Its the stress your under, and how you deal with it. Its the blood running through you, and the quality of the sources of nutrition you receive. Its the meridians, and your nerve pathways. And exerting your qi is also proper body alignment, proper force, proper speed, and proper state of mind. But whats proper is completely subjective to you, and cultivating good qi is being in balance with and understanding the self.

[Lee Chiang Po]

Strongly disagree. There is no "internal" aspect of bench pressing. It uses a proper form and breath control, but since there is no qi component, there is no internal aspect. IMO, of course.

So in your opinion, what is the distinction between "internal" and "external" martial arts? If proper form and breathing is all it takes to make something "internal," then in Western boxing internal? What about shotokan karate, or savate?

And, would you then argue that Taiji, Bagua, and HsingYi are no more "internal" than Wing Chun or Western boxing? After all, both have specific form and breathing techniques.


Well, I cannot speak for all these other systems, but I know that karate and jiujitsu are also dependent upon Qi. If you think about it some more, the weight lifting I mean. You can bench press a weight without using your breath or breathing simply by using the mechanics of your physical body. However, by doing it proper as you call it, by using breathing and proper form you can lift more. The chi is actually the sound you make when you put forth the volumn of your effort at a particular instant. The proper alignment and the short burst of power you generate with the Chi is the internal aspect of the bench press. Sort of like when you strike a brick or board. You exhale and make your little chi as you make contact, which then focuses your internal energy into your efforts.
I have a hell of a time explaining myself here, but it is not like internal is another form of gung fu. It is not a form of gung fu at all. It is simply the way your ration your energies and strength to accomplish an effort. If you do a lot of weight lifting then you probably have good form and a very good ability to use your chi. Even if you are not aware of it or even if you do not believe in it. Most people cannot get past the thought of internal being some mythical concept when it is nothing more than proper form and breathing. The external part is simply the mechanics of what you do, while the internal is the energy that you fuel your effort with. You can indeed learn to do it far more efficiently, such as when you bench press a considerable weight.

[YouKnowWho]

There is no "internal" aspect of bench pressing.
I would love to see any "internal" guy who can prove that we all do our "bench pressing" or "hip throw" wrong.

I always want to see clips for

- "internal" bench press,
- "internal" weight pulling,
- "internal" roundhouse kick,
- "internal" hip throw,
- "internal" elbow lock,
- "internal" ground skill,

but so far I haven't seen any yet. Until the day when people put up such clip online, I won't be convinced that "internal' can have any value besides "punching" only.

[Dragonzbane76]

To me the grappling arts have a lot of "internal" impressions. I feel they have more than most stand up arts. Thats my opinion.

[Robinhood]

I would love to see any "internal" guy who can prove that we all do our "bench pressing" or "hip throw" wrong.

I always want to see clips for

- "internal" bench press,
- "internal" weight pulling,
- "internal" roundhouse kick,
- "internal" hip throw,
- "internal" elbow lock,
- "internal" ground skill,

but so far I haven't seen any yet. Until the day when people put up such clip online, I won't be convinced that "internal' can have any value besides "punching" only.

You can't see it, that is one of the reasons it is called "internal", you will be waiting a long time, don't hold your breath.


Cheers

[Darthlawyer]

Internal originally meant "from inside China.". External meant "from outside China.". Hence the taoist arts of tai chi, xing yi, and pa gua are internal, as opposed to the bhuddist arts of the shaolin temple.

[pazman]

taiji is derived from shaolin, bro.

[ginosifu]

This is internal....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZXHgo2RRfE

ginosifu

[pazman]

You can't see it, that is one of the reasons it is called "internal", you will be waiting a long time, don't hold your breath.



There is a teapot in orbit around the sun, somewhere between the orbits of Earth and Mars. It's a fact, but there are many teapot deniers. They can't prove it's not there!

[taai gihk yahn]

This is internal....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZXHgo2RRfE

ginosifu

no, that's called "magnet under table" or some other such trickery;

[pazman]

... or some other such trickery;

which happens to be a good description of what "internal" masters do when they try to sell their supposed amazing skills to gullible students.

[Eric Olson]

"Both structure and breath"

and what Tai Gik Yahn said :D

I don't know what a Qi is, never seen one.

EO

[SPJ]

1. structure or xing has both internal and external components

there are training regimes for both.

2. intent or yi is internal aspect.

chen tai ji first routine, we focus on peng lu ji an. we focus on training of intent or yi.

chen tai ji 2nd routine, we focus on cai lie zhou kao. we have to practice fast and faster and lots of external or li.

yi and li are inseparable.

we use just focus on training them alone or both.

in first routine, we may practice slowly.

in 2nd routine we may practice fast and faster.

3 Breath

there are preheaven and post heaven training and practice.

you may say pre heaven is internal

and post heaven is external

etc etc.

in short both structure and breath have training focuses of both internal and external.

:cool:

[taai gihk yahn]

which happens to be a good description of what "internal" masters do when they try to sell their supposed amazing skills to gullible students.

the only skills that an "internal" master should reasonably sell are good overall health, a balanced demeanor and an attitude of equanimity towards life, good relationships with family and students, realistic healing skill if trained as such, and a quality of of movement that reflects their daily practice (this can include "pushing" skills if they are involved in that sort of pursuit);

no bells and whistles; in Tao-practice, the true person is undifferentiated, in that they are able to function equally in all things;

[Robinhood]

This is internal....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZXHgo2RRfE

ginosifu

If he could pull the water out of the bowl without moving the bowl, that would be better. If he can do it, it is called "empty force",


Cheers

[Robinhood]

There is a teapot in orbit around the sun, somewhere between the orbits of Earth and Mars. It's a fact, but there are many teapot deniers. They can't prove it's not there!


They can prove it, you just can't see it (literally).

Find a "internal" guy and you will feel it, not see it coming.


Cheers

[bawang]

the difference bewteen internal and external can be seen in the technique single whip.

in "external kung fu": a whipping punch

in "internal kung fu": grab the wrist, walk all the way behind your opponent, put your leg behind his leg, put your other hand under the armpit, extend the elbow, sink the wrist, pull, and sink down at the same time.

[YouKnowWho]

in "internal kung fu": grab the wrist, walk all the way behind your opponent, put your leg behind his leg, put your other hand under the armpit, extend the elbow, sink the wrist, pull, and sink down at the same time.

That sound like "grappling" to me.

[bawang]

it sounds like useless made up bullsh1t to me.

plus the fact single whip is the most well known basic punch in northern martial arts.

[YouKnowWho]

it sounds like useless made up bullsh1t to me.

Chinese will call that "take off your pants and then f@rt."

[bawang]

tai chi is basically very common and simple northern techniques done real slow. chen tai chi "secret internal training" is lifting weights. my first tai chi teacher made his white students do silk reeling all day, and told me to do push ups and hit sandbags.

[RenDaHai]

the difference bewteen internal and external can be seen in the technique single whip.

in "external kung fu": a whipping punch

in "internal kung fu": grab the wrist, walk all the way behind your opponent, put your leg behind his leg, put your other hand under the armpit, extend the elbow, sink the wrist, pull, and sink down at the same time.

Ahaha! So true....

Taiji is a small collection of very very standard techniques that appear in virtually every other northern style. Why do taiji teachers always try to explain what is essentially a simple strike by doing some weak and impossible to use throw.... its every time, every move. I guess I have just never seen a good demo.

[taai gihk yahn]

If he could pull the water out of the bowl without moving the bowl, that would be better. If he can do it, it is called "empty force",

no, it would be called science fiction; made possible by people like yourself who even give credence to the notion that such a thing can occur despite all rational evidence to the contrary

[Robinhood]

Ahaha! So true....

Taiji is a small collection of very very standard techniques that appear in virtually every other northern style. Why do taiji teachers always try to explain what is essentially a simple strike by doing some weak and impossible to use throw.... its every time, every move. I guess I have just never seen a good demo.

Like I said before, you are not going to see anything, go find someone that has real internal, and if you're real lucky he will let you feel it.


Cheers

[Lee Chiang Po]

"Both structure and breath"

and what Tai Gik Yahn said :D

I don't know what a Qi is, never seen one.

EO

Well, you just described a Qi, for what it is worth. Breath and structure. The ability to apply both together during an action that will increase the power of said action.
It is almost impossible to explain something so simple since most are pretty much convinced that it refers to some magic or some such. Even the so call internal masters that do the little parlor tricks of making a candle flame flicker from 10 feet away. If it will not put out the flame, it will not knock you out. It is simply done be disturbing the air between himself and the candle.
Once a person realizes what Qi really is, he can apply it even better, but most people actually apply it pretty good right now. They just don't know it. They are so convinced that internal means something silly like magic or something. I have come to realize myself that if a person does not want to see something, you are wasting your time showing it to him. He will simply not see it. I will say again however, that Qi or Chi have nothing to do with what you see in the little internal video where some crook is trying to say he can project his chi like some sonic weapon. It simply cannon be done. Period.

[bawang]

candle punching is not training magic qi. it makes you hit where you look. thats what makes it internal. the goal is not to punch out the candle.


Like I said before, you are not going to see anything, go find someone that has real internal, and if you're real lucky he will let you feel it.
Cheers

wat if you wear condom

[wenshu]

Like I said before, you are not going to see anything, go find someone that has real internal, and if you're real lucky he will let you feel it.


Can you feel it? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fecal_impaction)

[Robinhood]

Can you feel it? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fecal_impaction)

I guess we now know what you like to feel.

[IronFist]

There's no way to talk about internal without being vague. It's metaphorical/allegorical concept, not a thing. Like the Chinese notion of hard/soft. Or Yin/yang. Their vagueness is what allows them to be universal--it's poetic.

Sure there is.

Even theoretical physicists can talk about what they do/study without being vague.

Only snakeoil salesmen and "gurus" (term intentionally used in quotes) are vague.

Why?

Because the gullible mistake vagueness for guruism.

Same thing happens with those scam artists who sell real estate investing and day trading seminars. They are super vague about how to make a lot of money, but they sure do get the people at the seminars pumped up with good emotions thinking they are actually learning something. It goes without saying that those guys make their money doing seminars, not investing in real estate or trading stocks (the thing they claim to be good at).

Ask a guy who works at a hedge fund how he makes money and he will be super specific (if he's not prevented by doing so by a confidentiality contract).

Ask a guy who gives trading seminars how to make money and you'll get vague nonsense in his answer.

As a general rule, if you get vague answers, run, don't walk. You can ask for clarification once or twice because maybe the person misunderstood you, but if you still get vagueness either 1) they cannot teach or 2) they are conmen. In either case, they are going to be of no help to you.

[ShaolinDan]

Sure there is.

Even theoretical physicists can talk about what they do/study without being vague.

Only snakeoil salesmen and "gurus" (term intentionally used in quotes) are vague.

Why?

Because the gullible mistake vagueness for guruism.

Same thing happens with those scam artists who sell real estate investing and day trading seminars. They are super vague about how to make a lot of money, but they sure do get the people at the seminars pumped up with good emotions thinking they are actually learning something. It goes without saying that those guys make their money doing seminars, not investing in real estate or trading stocks (the thing they claim to be good at).

Ask a guy who works at a hedge fund how he makes money and he will be super specific (if he's not prevented by doing so by a confidentiality contract).

Ask a guy who gives trading seminars how to make money and you'll get vague nonsense in his answer.

As a general rule, if you get vague answers, run, don't walk. You can ask for clarification once or twice because maybe the person misunderstood you, but if you still get vagueness either 1) they cannot teach or 2) they are conmen. In either case, they are going to be of no help to you.

I guess as a student of literature, and in particular poetry, I feel differently. I'm comfortable with undefinable terms. I'm comfortable with the same words meaning different things to different people. I'm comfortable with language as a means of transportation rather than as a destination. I must admit, it took time to get comfortable with not knowing--I used to want there to be a 'real' answer, but sometimes there just isn't.

[SPJ]

internal and external are just binomial categorizations

they generalized things into 2 categorizations.

in medicine

we refer functions of internal organs into internal medicine.

we refer surgical procedures to external medicine or surgery.

etc etc

we may generalize certain training or practice into internal training

we may group certain training or practice into external traning

etc etc

The specific comes after you define or add things to that general categorization

etc etc

[Matthew]

Hi all, I really agree and believe it is important to understand terminology for martial artists/cultivators to have a readily specific vocabulary for discussion



I didn't do the poll because it is very vague and the terms apply to all art- the original poster's options are the same/too similar and all miss some glaringly obvious factor in defining internal-



Just to be clear on the term- 内功 nèigōng - meaning internal skill/ability/effort (as opposed to 外功 wàigōng - external skill/ability/effort)




They can prove it, you just can't see it (literally).

Find a "internal" guy and you will feel it, not see it coming.


Cheers


Although he only used vague terms, Robinhood is suggesting something that was really ignored in the original poster's poll-


Structure is important in all arts, breathing important in all arts, qi is important in all arts- because they are things associated with what all people must do so it is not so much the defining factors- although definitely important


It usually sounds mystical because westerners watch too many Dragon Ball Z shows and think that internal means shooting qi balls out of your hands.

These weren't discussed- and are usually factors to consider in determining if it is internal or external

-power generation in internal art has not been discussed other than mentioned Robinhood's post- and usually is a defining factor from external arts

-power handling and transform/changing nature in internal art differences are significant

-the meaning of 内功 neigong in Chinese language terms translation to english has relevance too

-health aspects associated with internal training is why so many external based style masters will only practice some qigong/neigong sets when they are in old age- internal art energy building practices instead of energy utilizing practices of external arts

[David Jamieson]

wait, I have another definition:

Internal = Highly organized system of excuses as to why the corpulent dude with breathing problems is actually a martial arts master who you should be terrified of.

external= smarmy wise cracking kids practicing mma and making fun of guys in pink gi's doing lin kong jin displays for money and fame....


There...is that correct?

[Robinhood]

Sure there is.

Even theoretical physicists can talk about what they do/study without being vague.

Only snakeoil salesmen and "gurus" (term intentionally used in quotes) are vague.

Why?

Because the gullible mistake vagueness for guruism.

Same thing happens with those scam artists who sell real estate investing and day trading seminars. They are super vague about how to make a lot of money, but they sure do get the people at the seminars pumped up with good emotions thinking they are actually learning something. It goes without saying that those guys make their money doing seminars, not investing in real estate or trading stocks (the thing they claim to be good at).

Ask a guy who works at a hedge fund how he makes money and he will be super specific (if he's not prevented by doing so by a confidentiality contract).

Ask a guy who gives trading seminars how to make money and you'll get vague nonsense in his answer.

As a general rule, if you get vague answers, run, don't walk. You can ask for clarification once or twice because maybe the person misunderstood you, but if you still get vagueness either 1) they cannot teach or 2) they are conmen. In either case, they are going to be of no help to you.

There is a difference between being vague and talking to some one that does not have enough experience to know what your talking about.

Your trading example is the same, most of those guys are not saying anything wrong, you just don't have enough experience to see it. Put in enough time and effort and you will understand it is not one thing, but all things combined that form the whole picture.

The hedge fund guy has a lot of experience and can know when to trade what, and at what time, he could tell you what he did, but it was only available at the moment he did it.

Cheers

[IronFist]

Hi all, I really agree and believe it is important to understand terminology for martial artists/cultivators to have a readily specific vocabulary for discussion



I didn't do the poll because it is very vague and the terms apply to all art- the original poster's options are the same/too similar and all miss some glaringly obvious factor in defining internal-



Just to be clear on the term- 内功 nèigōng - meaning internal skill/ability/effort (as opposed to 外功 wàigōng - external skill/ability/effort)






Although he only used vague terms, Robinhood is suggesting something that was really ignored in the original poster's poll-


Structure is important in all arts, breathing important in all arts, qi is important in all arts- because they are things associated with what all people must do so it is not so much the defining factors- although definitely important


It usually sounds mystical because westerners watch too many Dragon Ball Z shows and think that internal means shooting qi balls out of your hands.

These weren't discussed- and are usually factors to consider in determining if it is internal or external

-power generation in internal art has not been discussed other than mentioned Robinhood's post- and usually is a defining factor from external arts

-power handling and transform/changing nature in internal art differences are significant

-the meaning of 内功 neigong in Chinese language terms translation to english has relevance too

-health aspects associated with internal training is why so many external based style masters will only practice some qigong/neigong sets when they are in old age- internal art energy building practices instead of energy utilizing practices of external arts

You didn't really explain anything. You said differences exist but didn't even begin to quantify them.

[IronFist]

There is a difference between being vague and talking to some one that does not have enough experience to know what your talking about.

Your trading example is the same, most of those guys are not saying anything wrong, you just don't have enough experience to see it. Put in enough time and effort and you will understand it is not one thing, but all things combined that form the whole picture.

The hedge fund guy has a lot of experience and can know when to trade what, and at what time, he could tell you what he did, but it was only available at the moment he did it.

Cheers

False. The vast majority of trading "gurus" are snakeoil salesmen who either don't actually trade themselves, or who do trade but will not produce audited profit and loss statements.

Now think about that.

If I was a successful trader, and I was charging others to learn how to trade my supposedly "successful" method, shouldn't I be able to prove that I can actually trade myself before I have the gall to ask others to pay me for instruction? If you don't think so, I would like to tell you about my new mail-order qi blast classes. For only 3 payments of $10,000 I will teach you how to knock people out without touching them.

Yet none of the "gurus" will provide audited account statements.

I wonder why :rolleyes:

Could it be because they know they are just BS'ing the gullible?????

Note that this is very similar to the fat martial arts instructors who don't spar with their students because they are "too deadly." And the students are just expected to take that at face value and the teacher never even has to demonstrate anything or do anything.

"I'm too deadly because I say I'm too deadly, and if you don't believe me you can get out of my class and not learn the secret deadly qi arts."

"I'm a profitable trader because I say I'm a profitable trader and if you don't believe me, get out of my seminar. I don't have to provide audited proof that I'm not a liar. Now give me your $3,000 so I can give you a vague lecture about how to make millions trading like I do because I'm so rich and successful."

The most hilarious part is when you ask those trading "gurus" questions, you get vague advice.

Here is an example:

A trading "guru" tells you that when condition x happens, you do y. So a student follows the instruction to the letter (which is often hard, since "gurus" are typically intentionally vague), and blows his account. The student asks the "guru" what went wrong and shows him his examples. The guru replies with some vague nonsense like "you need to do what price tells you to do." Now one of two things happen: 1) the student realizes he has been had, or 2) the student is a gullible moron and thinks he has just been given some sage advice and goes home to waste more time and money trying to learn something that doesn't even work in the first place.

There was one famous trading "guru" (scammer) who, when someone asked him about how it was possible to predict price direction, replied "I don't need a weatherman to tell me if it's going to be raining 5 minutes from now." Hopefully you guys realize that 1) that analogy isn't even valid in the first place, 2) it was intentionally vague and misdirecting, 3) it didn't answer the question, and 4) gullible people would actually be satisfied with that answer, as if he had just dropped some fortune cooking "guru" advice on them.

Compare that with this:

A quant is working at a hedge fund and his simulations aren't working as expected. He shows his examples and data to another guy there who gives him specific, quantifiable corrections, he makes the modifications and gets his predicted results. This is what you should expect anytime you ask anyone in a teacher/instructor position anything about anything.

Some of you guys need to read up on the psychology of sales scams.

btw, remember my $10,000 qi blast classes? Well if you don't experience success, it's obviously because you're not training hard enough, so don't even think of emailing me and telling me that you have questions about my instruction or that you aren't able to knock people out without touching them yet, because if you aren't having success it is your fault, not mine. My qi blast methods work because I say they work, I don't have to prove myself to you. You just have to train harder. Now stop wasting my time with your laziness and train.

I know a few of the real estate "gurus" have gotten into legal trouble for similar reasons (I forgot their names but I saw something in the news about it a while ago). It doesn't matter, though, because if you watch 5 seconds of their commercials you can tell they are full of BS.

I can't figure out if some of you are the "gurus" or if you're just the kind of people who take real estate investing seminars and pay $2,000 for a book full of vague advice sold to you by a Guy Smiley who makes you feel really good but doesn't actually teach you anything useful.

[Matthew]

You didn't really explain anything. You said differences exist but didn't even begin to quantify them.

Sorry it was not specific enough for you, IronFist- your post is asking what internal means to me- not quantification.





It is like if you ask "What does an orange mean to you?"

if I reply with 4 inch diameter, .3 lbs, 100 cubic inches, density of ...... then you say "no that sounds like an apple"

Both have similar density, both have similar mass, similar volume, grown on similar height tree, etc.- so you need to explore beyond this- you can't ignore context, history, methods, etc.






If you are trying to find an answer- you need to do the work to get to it. This is the old saying of teaching a man to fish - it is better than simply giving away fish...

You sound too concerned with structure, breathing, etc as they are mostly universal to all people/arts. [Although Chinese Martial Arts might focus more than other breathing, structure, coordination (6 harmonies- liu he 六合), yin yang balance, etc ]





I gave some relevant places to start discussion.
If you really want to learn what is internal definition then you would explore possibilities people gave to you




-power generation in internal art usually is a defining factor from external arts

-power handling and transform/changing nature in internal art differences are significant

-the meaning of 内功 neigong in Chinese language terms translation to english has relevance too

-internal art energy building practices instead of energy utilizing practices of external arts

[sanjuro_ronin]

doesn't mean anything to me other than an archaic term that no longer has any value to me.

[IronFist]

It is like if you ask "What does an orange mean to you?"

Your analogy isn't valid because "internal" is an adjective that can describe martial arts and techniques, but "an orange" is a noun.

How can people use an adjective to describe something when they don't understand what the adjective means?


if I reply with 4 inch diameter, .3 lbs, 100 cubic inches, density of ...... then you say "no that sounds like an apple"

Both have similar density, both have similar mass, similar volume, grown on similar height tree, etc.- so you need to explore beyond this- you can't ignore context, history, methods, etc.

To continue your analogy, it would be easy to describe "an orange."

It's a citrus fruit that grows on trees, is orange in color (hence the name), around 4" in diameter, with a skin around 3mm to 8mm in thickness (just estimating) with the fruit inside being divided into sections, etc.

I could draw, describe, or show an orange to someone and there would be little doubt left in their mind as to what an orange is.

But if you ask an internal "guru" what an orange is, they would probably say something like "an orange contains qi and tastes good." Thanks dude, big help. And all his followers would think that was the most brilliant answer, ever (despite the fact that even after being given that answer, none of them knows what an orange is).


If you are trying to find an answer- you need to do the work to get to it. This is the old saying of teaching a man to fish - it is better than simply giving away fish...

False. The onus of proof for the person with the mystical powers is to prove that they have the mystical powers. It is not up to the skeptic to prove they don't.

[Matthew]

Your analogy isn't valid because "internal" is an adjective that can describe martial arts and techniques

Okay, if you know- what is an internal technique? Don't quote other people- you are making a statement that "internal" describes techniques.



How can people use an adjective to describe something when they don't understand what the adjective means?

If you answer my question above without contradicting your own statement here- then you have solved the whole thread!

What is an internal technique?




False. The onus of proof for the person with the mystical powers is to prove that they have the mystical powers. It is not up to the skeptic to prove they don't.

You watch too much TV and think people can fly- you are too distracted by irrelevant analogies. Apple and Orange is only to get you to see you are missing the most vital factors which I have listed in all posts now so openly.





if you really want to find the definition, why not start discussing relevant factors?



You still ignored what my original post addresses- you have missed major factors in defining internal.. from my experience- these are relevant factor.

-term Neigong and it's meaning in chinese-to english
-power generation methods/types
-power handling methods/types
-transformation/change ability

[sanjuro_ronin]

I once asked an "internal stylist" of QI existed and he said Yes, of course.
So I asked if Qi was only MA related or can be use din everyday life and He said that it was NOT MA related and that Qi is used in everyday life.
I asked if Qi can be used to help us do a physcial activity and he said of course and MA power generation is a prime example.
So I asked him has does one use Qi to lift a weight from the floor? Or to move something heavy and He said that using Qi allows one to move with more than just the muscles.
So I laid down and asked him to lift me up using Qi.
Yeah, the conversation ended there.

[YouKnowWho]

The onus of proof for the person with the mystical powers is to prove that they have the mystical powers. It is not up to the skeptic to prove they don't.

Agree 100% there. If someone said "internal" exists, that person will have to prove it. If that person cannot prove it, it's that person's problem and not my problem.

Someone in another forum told me that there are 3 persons in US who can show me "internal". I told that person that if any of those 3 person wants to prove "internal" exist, they can come to my house and show what "internal" is in my living room. Since I don't care about whether "internal" exist or not, I have no interest to travel and find who those 3 persons really are.

The day when God stands above the cloud and says, "I do exist", I'll become christian. Until then, I have no interest to investigate God.

[IronFist]

Okay, if you know- what is an internal technique? Don't quote other people- you are making a statement that "internal" describes techniques.



If you answer my question above without contradicting your own statement here- then you have solved the whole thread!

What is an internal technique?


I said in the first post that "internal" means doing something enhanced with qi in a way that is distinctly different from doing it without qi.

I have never seen anyone who can demonstrate this, by the way. A lot of people say they are doing things and blaming it on qi, such as breaking the bottom brick by saying that are projecting their qi into it (which is incorrect, it is physics, and can be replicated with a hammer), or by taking a sledgehammer blow to the stomach and saying they are protecting themselves with qi (which is incorrect, they are using their fat (cuz it's always a fat guy doing this demo), muscle contractions, and proper application of body mechanics to protect themselves), etc. These people are either severely, severely mislead and actually believe they have mystic power, or they are liars and conmen.

Even the monks are in on this scam. There was a show on TV not too long ago where a monk claimed to protect himself from a drill using qi. He ran a drill and pressed it into his body. The "researchers" connected electrodes to his arm to prove that he was actually using muscle force to press the drill into this head. What they didn't mention was that he was pushing back with an equal amount of force with this other arm. So yes, they had data showing he was actually pressing the drill into his body, but they casually forgot to mention that he was pushing it away from his body with his other arm. Note that this monk works as a bodyguard in China. I hope he never gets into a real fight or has to stop someone attacking him with a drill.



You watch too much TV and think people can fly- you are too distracted by irrelevant analogies. Apple and Orange is only to get you to see you are missing the most vital factors which I have listed in all posts now so openly.

You tried to compare defining a vague adjective to defining a specific noun. Maybe that kind of logic works in qi blast class but it doesn't work when dealing with people who don't drink the Kool Aid.

[IronFist]

Agree 100% there. If someone said "internal" exists, that person will have to prove it. If that person cannot prove it, it's that person's problem and not my problem.

Someone in another forum told me that there are 3 persons in US who can show me "internal". I told that person that if any of those 3 person wants to prove "internal" exist, they can come to my house and show what "internal" is in my living room. Since I don't care about whether "internal" exist or not, I have no interest to travel and find who those 3 persons really are.

The day when God stands above the cloud and says, "I do exist", I'll become christian. Until then, I have no interest to investigate God.

Honestly, at least (most) religious people will usually say you have to take it on faith.

And that's just fine. That's why it's called "faith."

I've never heard a qigong guy say you have to take it on faith, however. Especially not the ones up on stage scamming people into believing they are breaking the bottom brick (a physics trick) by projecting their qi into it.

God cannot be proven, which is why it's called "faith." And I have no issue with that. I don't even think atheists have an issue with that.

However, doing a technique with qi (interally) vs. without qi (externally) should be able to be demonstrated, assuming "qi" is real, and in fact doing so would give conclusive proof that not only is qi real, but that it has martial applications.

But until someone can demonstrate it without resorting to physics tricks, sleight of hand, and physical conditioning, only the gullible will believe it.

But I guess there's a lot of money to be made off of the gullible, so it's not likely we'll ever see a legit demo of internal skills anytime soon.

Now, about my no touch knockout qi blast course. If you act now I will knock off one payment of $10,000, bringing your total to just two payments of $10,000.

[xinyidizi]

The options for this poll are insufficient for describing internal martial arts. 6 harmonies as a whole is the best description that I know for the internal martial arts that I have practiced so far and the reason that they are called harmonies is because they are all connected!

[Matthew]

I said in the first post that "internal" means doing something enhanced with qi in a way that is distinctly different from doing it without qi.


I have, throughout my experiences with martial artists, come to what seems to be a semi-consistent definition of internal (Nei Gong) skill/practice. No where have I ever heard what you just said.



protecting themselves with qi

protect himself from a drill using qi

your problem is not with defining internal- you have an issue with people who make unfounded claims about Qi and using Qi.




Why are you bringing that into a discussion about defining internal?


内功 neigong or internal skill/effort/practice definition has nothing to do with these people making unfounded claims.


Sorry to say- I feel like you derailed your own thread. If you were talking about people selling snake oil- that is one thing. There are plenty of great martial artists who don't need to use magical examples or unfounded claims to show you what internal practice is.

[SPJ]

inner 3 forms/shapes/manifestation (nei san xing)

outer 3 forms/shapes/manifestations (wai san xing)

they are 6 in harmony or liu he.

based upon the common definitions in many styles of CMA and JMA.

nei training is not only related to qi

but also jing and shen

jing qi shen are 3 shapes from your inside.

so how do you train or cultivate

your 3 inner strengths?

of course, non believers say that they do not exist

---

:)

[bawang]

there is no such thing as internal in traditional chinese martial arts. the term does not exist. the concept does not exist.


it has a powerful grip on many peoples minds because it is a cult indoctrination device.

[YouKnowWho]

6 harmonies as a whole is the best description that I know for the internal martial arts that I have practiced so far and the reason that they are called harmonies is because they are all connected!
The 6 harmonies is the most important principle that I have followed all my life but I still don't believe in "internal". The human body is like 3 springs. All 3 springs should be compressed and released at the same time. When your body move, all body parts move. When you body stop, all body parts stop. Is that "internal"? It's more like the "correct way to move" to me. Instead of saying "internal" and "external", we should say, "correct way" or "incorrect way" to perform certain body function.

[xinyidizi]

The 6 harmonies is the most important principle that I have followed all my life but I still don't believe in "internal".

I think you are talking about 3 harmonies.

[bawang]

或无学无才，无谋无识，而谬夸张大，云有秘能神术者，是为误军之奸；无艺无力

"those that have no martial skills or talents and know nothing, tell exaggerated stories and speak of secret teachings and supernatural powers. they are liars and frauds. they are weak and useless."

-on training, 1600s

[Lucas]

或无学无才，无谋无识，而谬夸张大，云有秘能神术者，是为误军之奸；无艺无力

"those that have no martial skills or talents and know nothing, exaggerate their prowess and speak of secret teachings and supernatural powers. they are liars and frauds. they are weak and useless."

-on training, 1600s

totally quote worthy.

[sanjuro_ronin]

或无学无才，无谋无识，而谬夸张大，云有秘能神术者，是为误军之奸；无艺无力

"those that have no martial skills or talents and know nothing, tell exaggerated stories and speak of secret teachings and supernatural powers. they are liars and frauds. they are weak and useless."

-on training, 1600s

Bawang with the chi blast for the win !

[bawang]

the founder of yang style tai chi lifted weights every single day so his joints made popping noises. when his students asked why he said its because he channeled qi into his marrows.

[YouKnowWho]

I think you are talking about 3 harmonies.

Because the "internal" 3 harmonies cannot be seen or proved. I don't like to talk about anything that I cannot "demonstrate" it by Youtube clip. I may say that I have achieved the "internal" 3 harmonies, but you may say that I have not. It will turn into endless argument just like the word "internal".

[IronFist]

I have, throughout my experiences with martial artists, come to what seems to be a semi-consistent definition of internal (Nei Gong) skill/practice. No where have I ever heard what you just said.





your problem is not with defining internal- you have an issue with people who make unfounded claims about Qi and using Qi.




Why are you bringing that into a discussion about defining internal?


内功 neigong or internal skill/effort/practice definition has nothing to do with these people making unfounded claims.


Sorry to say- I feel like you derailed your own thread. If you were talking about people selling snake oil- that is one thing. There are plenty of great martial artists who don't need to use magical examples or unfounded claims to show you what internal practice is.


The wikipedia link I posted on the first page says internal martial arts involve qi.

If "internal" does not involve qi, or if "internal" just means "breathing and structure," then:

1) "internal" martial arts are no different from "external" martial arts

and

2) everything in the world is "internal"

[Lucas]

the founder of yang style tai chi lifted weights every single day so his joints made popping noises. when his students asked why he said its because he channeled qi into his marrows.

and now we have all this confusion because his students couldnt tell he was joking around...

[Robinhood]

False. The vast majority of trading "gurus" are snakeoil salesmen who either don't actually trade themselves, or who do trade but will not produce audited profit and loss statements.

Now think about that.

If I was a successful trader, and I was charging others to learn how to trade my supposedly "successful" method, shouldn't I be able to prove that I can actually trade myself before I have the gall to ask others to pay me for instruction? If you don't think so, I would like to tell you about my new mail-order qi blast classes. For only 3 payments of $10,000 I will teach you how to knock people out without touching them.

Yet none of the "gurus" will provide audited account statements.

I wonder why :rolleyes:

Could it be because they know they are just BS'ing the gullible?????

Note that this is very similar to the fat martial arts instructors who don't spar with their students because they are "too deadly." And the students are just expected to take that at face value and the teacher never even has to demonstrate anything or do anything.

"I'm too deadly because I say I'm too deadly, and if you don't believe me you can get out of my class and not learn the secret deadly qi arts."

"I'm a profitable trader because I say I'm a profitable trader and if you don't believe me, get out of my seminar. I don't have to provide audited proof that I'm not a liar. Now give me your $3,000 so I can give you a vague lecture about how to make millions trading like I do because I'm so rich and successful."

The most hilarious part is when you ask those trading "gurus" questions, you get vague advice.

Here is an example:

A trading "guru" tells you that when condition x happens, Yom u do y. So a student follows the instruction to the letter (which is often hard, since "gurus" are typically intentionally vague), and blows his account. The studennt asks the "guru" what went wrong and shows him his examples. The guru replies with some vague nonsense like "you need to do what price tells you to do." Now one of two things happen: 1) the student realizes he has been had, or 2) the student is a gullible moron and thinks he has just been given some sage advice and goes home to waste more time and money trying to learn something that doesn't even work in the first place.

There was one famous trading "guru" (scammer) who, when someone asked him about how it was possible to predict price direction, replied "I don't need a weatherman to tell me if it's going to be raining 5 minutes from now." Hopefully you guys realize that 1) that analogy isn't even valid in the first place, 2) it was intentionally vague and misdirecting, 3) it didn't answer the question, and 4) gullible people would actually be satisfied with that answer, as if he had just dropped some fortune cooking "guru" advice on them.

Compare that with this:

A quant is working at a hedge fund and his simulations aren't working as expected. He shows his examples and data to another guy there who gives him specific, quantifiable corrections, he makes the modifications and gets his predicted results. This is what you should expect anytime you ask anyone in a teacher/instructor position anything about anything.

Some of you guys need to read up on the psychology of sales scams.

btw, remember my $10,000 qi blast classes? Well if you don't experience success, it's obviously because you're not training hard enough, so don't even think of emailing me and telling me that you have questions about my instruction or that you aren't able to knock people out without touching them yet, because if you aren't having success it is your fault, not mine. My qi blast methods work because I say they work, I don't have to prove myself to you. You just have to train harder. Now stop wasting my time with your laziness and train.

I know a few of the real estate "gurus" have gotten into legal trouble for similar reasons (I forgot their names but I saw something in the news about it a while ago). It doesn't matter, though, because if you watch 5 seconds of their commercials you can tell they are full of BS.

I can't figure out if some of you are the "gurus" or if you're just the kind of people who take real estate investing seminars and pay $2,000 for a book full of vague advice sold to you by a Guy Smiley who makes you feel really good but doesn't actually teach you anything useful.

You can't expect someone to just give you something you don't have, sounds like you think you can pay a guy, and not do any work yourself and make money.

If you actually had experience in real trading, you would be able to filter out what people say, you try to lump everything together into what you think it should be.

Just like in MA , you have to do the work and find it, no one can give it to you or tell you the secret that will transform you.

Even if the Guru proved he made money, you would still lose.


Cheers

[Robinhood]

The 6 harmonies is the most important principle that I have followed all my life but I still don't believe in "internal". The human body is like 3 springs. All 3 springs should be compressed and released at the same time. When your body move, all body parts move. When you body stop, all body parts stop. Is that "internal"? It's more like the "correct way to move" to me. Instead of saying "internal" and "external", we should say, "correct way" or "incorrect way" to perform certain body function.


No that is not internal . That is just external techniques.

If you insist on making everything into a technique, you will not find "internal", Internal is not a technique.


Cheers

[YouKnowWho]

you will not find "internal", ...

What make you think that I care about to find it?

Last year when one of those 3 "internal" masters (that I mentioned) had a workshop in Austin, Texas, a friend of mine asked me whether I would be interest to meet him and I told him "no". I knew we might start with friendly conversation, but the moment that my opponent mentioned the word "internal", I would want that person to prove it. There could only be 2 outcomes, either he proved to me that "internal" exist (which I didn't care), or I proved to him that "internal" didn't exist (That person did care a lot). It was just not fair for the vistor.


Just like in MA , you have to do the work and find it, no one can give it to you or tell you the secret that will transform you.
You assume that people may beg to be "transformed" (as if we all have "sin" and beg God for forgiveness). That's not the case in the real world. On the other hand, I feel sorry for those who think they have sin and need forgiveness from God.

[Robinhood]

The wikipedia link I posted on the first page says internal martial arts involve qi.

If "internal" does not involve qi, or if "internal" just means "breathing and structure," then:

1) "internal" martial arts are no different from "external" martial arts

and

2) everything in the world is "internal"

Of coarse "Internal" arts involve "chi and yi", using them correctly is what separates you from external, but many other things need to be right for them to work.

You have to build your "internal chi" first, until you have enough that you can learn how to use it. Lifting weights and doing external exercises does not build your "chi".


Cheers

[Lucas]

so let me ask this to the 'internal' guys.

do you think that the only way to achieve 'internal' application in combat is SOLEY through learning under an internal master? For example, does a top of the world fighter use 'internal' during a fight?

the 'world top' fighters are all 'external' fighters.

if this is all the case, one would wonder why anyone would even want 'internal' for combat??!?!? if the external creates the worlds best fighters, internal is apparently not for creating the best of the best?!?!?

[YouKnowWho]

the 'world top' fighters are all 'external' fighters.

In both 1929 and 1933 Chinese National Martial Arts Tournaments, there were no Taiji and bagua guys who competed in either tournaments (there were many XingYi guys there).

Why?

[Robinhood]

What make you think that I care about to find it?

Last year when one of those 3 "internal" masters (that I mentioned) had a workshop in Austin, Texas, a friend of mine asked me whether I would be interest to meet him and I told him "no". I knew we might start with friendly conversation, but the moment that my opponent mentioned the word "internal", I would want that person to prove it. There could only be 2 outcomes, either he proved to me that "internal" exist (which I didn't care), or I proved to him that "internal" didn't exist (That person did care a lot). It was just not fair for the vistor.

Then why are you so worried about it ?

If you have it, you know it exists,
I could care less that you don't have it, if you don't want it, then don't train for it,
but if you don't train for it, don't expect to have it either.

You sound like you don't want it to exist, because you haven't found it, or maybe you found it, but aren't aware of it ?


Cheers

[YouKnowWho]

Then why are you so worried about it ?

The only thing that I worry about is whether my punch is still powerful enough to knock down my opponent, or my throw is still good enought to take down my opponent. Besides that, it's just not that important to me.

[bawang]

internal is a very powerful illusion. it was designed this way. it was created for the purpose of luring mentally weak people into your control.

[YouKnowWho]

internal is a very powerful illusion.

I did have that illusion when I was young. :(

[Robinhood]

so let me ask this to the 'internal' guys.

do you think that the only way to achieve 'internal' application in combat is SOLEY through learning under an internal master? For example, does a top of the world fighter use 'internal' during a fight?

the 'world top' fighters are all 'external' fighters.

if this is all the case, one would wonder why anyone would even want 'internal' for combat??!?!? if the external creates the worlds best fighters, internal is apparently not for creating the best of the best?!?!?

You mean sport fighting with rules, if you are going to be doing sport fighting, then train external , because conditioning , muscles , strength and speed are main aspects needed to win with most sport rules. I think "technical brawling" is more of what your watching, not really an "art", if being bigger and stronger always wins where is the "art" of slow defeating fast, or weak defeating strong.

I was watching some fights the other day, tough guys, but when they got poked in the eyes or hit in the balls, they could not continue. What does that tell you about effectiveness and training ?


Cheers

[Robinhood]

The only thing that I worry about is whether my punch is still powerful enough to knock down my opponent, or my throw is still good enought to take down my opponent. Besides that, it's just not that important to me.

Well at your age, you must be worrying a lot.


Cheers

[Lucas]

I was watching some fights the other day, tough guys, but when they got poked in the eyes or hit in the balls, they could not continue. What does that tell you about effectiveness and training ?


Cheers

that they have the same soft spots all humans do. doesnt mean that they cannot hit harder or street fight better than most.

if you take the top 10% of 'sport fighters' i would put money down on each of them over any non professional in a 1 on 1 street fight any day of the year.

because, while they fight for sport, they are very dangerous men. the simple fact that they CAN have restraint while under pressure is a clear sign many miss as to how skilled the best really are.

you think that no sport fighters get in real fights? you must not read the news lol.

[YouKnowWho]

Well at your age, you must be worrying a lot.

Not as much as you may think. If you can beat me with

- open hands, I'll come back to you with knife.
- knife, I'll come back to you with gun.
- gun, I'll sue you.

I do have a lot of kinfes (Chinese Dao, Jian, Miao Dao, Japanese sword, ...) and guns (Colt 45, Walther PPK, 44 magnum, Ruger, ...). I also have a good criminal lawyer as my student.

[IronFist]

You can't expect someone to just give you something you don't have, sounds like you think you can pay a guy, and not do any work yourself and make money.

If you are paying someone to teach you, they should teach you, not tool you around with vague nonsense.


If you actually had experience in real trading, you would be able to filter out what people say, you try to lump everything together into what you think it should be.

Just like in MA , you have to do the work and find it, no one can give it to you or tell you the secret that will transform you.

Even if the Guru proved he made money, you would still lose.

Anyone in a teaching position, especially someone charging money for instruction, should be able to demonstrate the thing they are claiming to teach.

Would you learn a programming language from someone who can't write a program?

Would you take a driving class from a teacher who had never driven a car before?

Then why would anyone learn internal martial arts from someone who can't demonstrate qi power?

Why would someone learn trading from someone who doesn't have a verifiable trading record?

Would you like to sign up for my mail order correspondence qi blast class? For you I will knock off the second payment of $10,000 so all you have to do is make one payment of $10,000 and you will learn no touch knockouts. You will make a great student since you don't need to see that I can actually do what I am claiming to be able to teach you before you pay me.

[Matthew]

The wikipedia link

I didn't realize this was about wikipedia definition- can't even a 5 year old can post there? or even bawang can post there?

it is better to just re-edit the wikipedia, or post in discussion on that wikipedia page, or contact editor

[IronFist]

You have to build your "internal chi" first, until you have enough that you can learn how to use it. Lifting weights and doing external exercises does not build your "chi".



Ok, now that you've told us what "doesn't" build your "chi," how about you tell us what does build your "internal chi"?

Why is it that internal stylists can't ever give a clear description of what they do?

[Matthew]

Would you learn a programming language from someone who can't write a program?

Would you take a driving class from a teacher who had never driven a car before?

Then why would anyone learn internal martial arts from someone who can't demonstrate qi power?

Why would someone learn trading from someone who doesn't have a verifiable trading record?


If I recall right, you posted around a month or more ago complaining about a CMA teacher you had after you got beaten up by some local MMA gents...... did you ask this question before going to your CMA teacher? What is internal? Can I spar MMA with this?

Sorry to be critical, IronFist, but it sounds more like you are just making this whole big deal about Qi and CMA after being knocked down by some bully martial artists who you thought you could beat without ever sparring or fighting outside your art.

[IronFist]

You mean sport fighting with rules, if you are going to be doing sport fighting, then train external , because conditioning , muscles , strength and speed are main aspects needed to win with most sport rules.

Are you saying internal arts are too deadly for the ring?



I think "technical brawling" is more of what your watching, not really an "art", if being bigger and stronger always wins where is the "art" of slow defeating fast, or weak defeating strong.

I was watching some fights the other day, tough guys, but when they got poked in the eyes or hit in the balls, they could not continue. What does that tell you about effectiveness and training ?


Cheers

Are you saying internal arts can protect against being hit in the balls or in the eyes?

[IronFist]

If I recall right, you posted around a month or more ago complaining about a CMA teacher you had after you got beaten up by some local MMA gents...... did you ask this question before going to your CMA teacher? What is internal? Can I spar MMA with this?

About 10 years ago I got schooled by MMA guys because even after years of TMA I had never learned how to fight because we never trained against resisting opponents.

I wasn't studying internal arts, though. If I was I would've just qi blasted the MMA guys. Duh.

[Matthew]

For example, does a top of the world fighter use 'internal' during a fight?

Could be to some extent- maybe difficult to know if it is. What if we judge how coordinated they seem to be- if they cannot even be coordinated using their visible structure to deliver power, then I doubt it's possible to go beyond external.

One characteristic I think nearly all internal style have is waist-hip differentiation

You see Mike Tyson at :20 moving waist without his hips moving- twisting out of his spine instead of hip and waist as one unit- often regarded as an external characteristic
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNG51lWTg84

- his using momentum "whipping" power can be external characteristic-This is great when you are young and strong, but will soon fade through middle age.

So maybe he has some internal skill (Nei Gong), but he depends more on brute force/momentum powers anyway.. I think many art can include both. Most art have the qi/neigong sets that they practice to improve focus, quiet the mind, listen to body, build structure, "open the channels" some will say

it still it does not seem Mike has constant attack defense theory built in- part of internal is ability to change at all points of movement
external relies on Committed Strike--------------time in transit------------->target
in between strike and target, there is no transform ability if using momentum power


Internal is more relying on elasticity and open joints- and does not rely on momentum 'whipping' power


We see the Waist and Hip differentiation in Tai Chi here- opening kua is one major aspect in internal art, but as important is other joints too
youtube.com/watch?v=lywt3TZhZew (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lywt3TZhZew)

[Matthew]

the 'world top' fighters are all 'external' fighters.

if this is all the case, one would wonder why anyone would even want 'internal' for combat??!?!? if the external creates the worlds best fighters, internal is apparently not for creating the best of the best?!?!?

If you want world top fighter it's better to go to MMA at local gyms- apparently CMA doesn't make top fighter anyway judging by UFC results.. so why be on this forum to discuss at all?

Further, if you are on this forum and you believe CMA has use- then you should wonder why CMA master plays internal Nei gong forms along side some external based art- like the iron wire,


awareness of skeletal / internal structure & CNS sensitivity is best built through listening skill- it would be impractical to hope to develop when doing repeated whipping movements in the body of external practice. This is also where most internal artist will discuss Qi and channel opening - some will disregard this and see results anyway...


if you learn from a good teacher you may never need to even need to hear the word qi, central nervous system, skeleton structure, anterior plane, channel meridian, etc etc

if you are not looking for internal teacher anyway- it is best to not worry about those terms and cloud your head just for nothing...



Anyway- It is like trying to hear subtle voices when someone is hitting the gong.. so it is best to know what your goal is.

If your goal is to make be a boxer in mma, hit the gong
if your goal is to understand your own body to a stronger degree, then learn to quiet your mind down -listening skills

[taai gihk yahn]

I said in the first post that "internal" means doing something enhanced with qi in a way that is distinctly different from doing it without qi.
this is the wrong way to think about it; you can't do ANYTHING without "qi", as it is a functional principle concomitant with ALL life processes; you can function in a way that makes "qi" more abundant, more "available" to the organism, but this just means doing things that r intrinsically healthy for the body: proper diet, exercise, sleep, mental state - when these are all present, then "qi" is more abundant (meaning u have better respiratory capacity, better digestion, circadian rhythms working properly, blood pressure normal, immune function optimized, autonomic balance etc. - ALL of these r aspects of "qi", and when they r not functioning well, u demonstrate signs of "qi" deficiency, as indicated by things like eye / tongue / pulse characteristics, as well as subjective reports of one's appetite, mood, arousal level, etc.

when u do "external" work, u work with "qi", but not in the same way as when u do "internal"; anyone who says u don't work w "qi" doing any sort of activity doesn't really get what "qi" encompasses; when u practice "externally", u get certain benefits as u do when u practice "internally"; the difference is what aspects of the organism r being stimulated and worked;

all the problems arise when u start talking about "qi" as this discreet thing that can be shut on or off, like an electrical current; this is the mistake of trying to identify "qi" as a singular, distinct phenomenon just like electricity, magnetism, gravity, etc.; it's not a thing - which is why all the stuff about "empty force" being an example of "qi" projection is just hooey and totally ridiculous, relying on this misconception;

[bawang]

when you guys hear those vomited up cookie cutter sayings you shouldnt respond to them. there is nothing achieved trying to argue. they are indocrinated or have serious mental diseases.

[Robinhood]

Ok, now that you've told us what "doesn't" build your "chi," how about you tell us what does build your "internal chi"?

Why is it that internal stylists can't ever give a clear description of what they do?

Do a search, I am sure there is plenty of info on building internal.

If your teacher can't demonstrate something to you then why learn from him.

Some one can only show you what works, it is up to you to put in the time to make it work.

You sound like a rookie, it takes many years to learn anything worth having, there' is no short cut, only wasted time.


Cheers

[Lee Chiang Po]

so let me ask this to the 'internal' guys.

do you think that the only way to achieve 'internal' application in combat is SOLEY through learning under an internal master? For example, does a top of the world fighter use 'internal' during a fight?

the 'world top' fighters are all 'external' fighters.

if this is all the case, one would wonder why anyone would even want 'internal' for combat??!?!? if the external creates the worlds best fighters, internal is apparently not for creating the best of the best?!?!?

We need to establish something here. First of all, you have no idea who does internal and who doesn't. It is just your own assumption. Secondly, I feel that like some others, you have absolutely no idea what internal is. You watch way too much Utube where silly a$$es try to fool people with some sort of Chi Blast. You need to get that silly stuff out of your head and realize that it has nothing at all to do with Chi. I have explained exactly what Chi is, but no one seems to be able to understand it, even though I made it as simply as I can.

[Lucas]

Some people cannot recognize the devils advocate when hes sticking your bum with a trident

[Lucas]

As i hit post 'runnin with the devil' came on the radio

[bawang]

the people who seem to obsess about internal, boxing, wrestling, and mma in their minds invoke powerful images of the bully. it reminds them of all the people who bullied them in their life.

those people dont care if internal is real or not. it is used to defend against the dominating and masculine american culture that they fear.

[Lucas]

Im going to call you bawang the wise now

[YouKnowWho]

dont care if internal is real or not.

When you spar with

- Xingyi guys, all matches turn into kickboxing (nothing wrong there).
- Taiji and Bagua guys, all matches turn into wrestling match (nothing wrong there either).

It will be hard for you to be serious about "internal" after that.

[Robinhood]

When you spar with

- Xingyi guys, all matches turn into kickboxing (nothing wrong there).
- Taiji and Bagua guys, all matches turn into wrestling match (nothing wrong there either).

It will be hard for you to be serious about "internal" after that.

I guess you can't see the internal at work, if you are literally fighting each other using "li" muscles, I don't think much internal is going on.

If someone is using "internal", you will not have much outside movement on the part of the person using internal, sounds like you are practicing with people just using external,
are they telling you that they are using internal?, or since their style is internal you assume they are able to apply internal?


Cheers

[Lucas]

So how do you define the application of styles like judo or aikido where our goal is more with less. Defeating your opponent with minimal energy, using their efforts against them, utilizing stillness to overcome motion, etc. I could go on. These are a few defining principles of those as well as other arts. To achieve those we all go through the process of making large small. Refinement of technique and methods to achieve the penacle of ability and skill with what you train with the goal of being able to duplicate you training during actual use.

just for the sake of this discussion, at the climax of Ueshiba's career, would one consider his application of aikido internalized?

[ShaolinDan]

So how do you define the application of styles like judo or aikido where our goal is more with less. Defeating your opponent with minimal energy, using their efforts against them, utilizing stillness to overcome motion, etc. I could go on. These are a few defining principles of those as well as other arts. To achieve those we all go through the process of making large small. Refinement of technique and methods to achieve the penacle of ability and skill with what you train with the goal of being able to duplicate you training during actual use.

just for the sake of this discussion, at the climax of Ueshiba's career, would one consider his application of aikido internalized?

I don't think of internal as the end result, I think of it as a training approach. From my point of view Aikido is a largely internal style, though admittedly every teacher has their own approach.
Taiji is one of the styles that was used to create Aikido after all

[RenDaHai]

When you spar with

- Xingyi guys, all matches turn into kickboxing (nothing wrong there).
- Taiji and Bagua guys, all matches turn into wrestling match (nothing wrong there either).

It will be hard for you to be serious about "internal" after that.


Xingyi is an efficient method of using the spear. Many thousands have died at its point. Go back in time and find a XingYi trained soldier. Take away his murderous intent, take away the spear, then take away all of the important targets, then take away all of the hand weapons (i.e only use a fist) then take away the environment then ask a XingYi guy to spar.... His XingYi will be about as useful as the ability to play tennis. That is why it turns into kickboxing. The entire footwork is to close the groin target, if you don't allow groin hits then the footwork actually slows you down and is worthless. Think about the rules you use to spar with...

If they are kickboxing rules, then kickboxing is off course the best way to play it. Its like expecting when the chinese play soccer they do it with kung fu moves, off course they don't because the best way to play soccer is in the way it is already played. its all about the rules you use. Does that mean I think a Kung Fu guy would destroy an MMa fighter in street combat? NO off course not, because the fighter would Also adapt to the rules. And the number 1 most powerful weapon is the mind. The pro fighters mind is already honed to fighting, no matter the rules. But that doesn't mean his style has the best techniques of actual combat. Just that his training method is good, not the specific techniques.

On topic;

Internal is a stupid classification.

The sensation of Qi has little to do with combat. It is an excercise of the mind. It is to increase the conscious connection between the mind and the body and so between the self and the universe. Its use is in Deep meditation. Not in MA. However, often the road of this training travels through the MA.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I did have that illusion when I was young. :(

We all did but then reality came crashing in and experience became our teacher and we understood it for what it really was and disregard it for what it isn't.

[pazman]

Taiji is one of the styles that was used to create Aikido after all

http://supplementgenius.com/consumer/files/nope.jpeg



And to answer Lucas's question.....Yes, Ueshiba learned from many different arts and made something to call his own. It would be fair to say he "internalized" his art but I don't feel that this is the same thing people talk about when pajama kung fu players say "internal". Any exceptional athlete, artist, musician, etc can be said to have "internalized" their chosen skill.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Aikido became more "internal" when O sensei got older and more "enlightened".
But what made a name for Aikido was what Ueshiba ( and the likes of Shioda too), did when they were younger ie: fight and kick ass.
Ueshiba was a huge fan of strength training by the way and his early aikido showed that ( as did his first generation students).
At 5ft-1 and over 160lbs of muscle, he was a pitbull.
What Aikido cme to be after that and is to the most part today ( though a few groups are still very old school), is a shadow of the practical Aikido of a "young" O Sensei.

[bawang]

Xingyi is an efficient method of using the spear. Many thousands have died at its point. Go back in time and find a XingYi trained soldier. Take away his murderous intent, take away the spear, then take away all of the important targets, then take away all of the hand weapons (i.e only use a fist) then take away the environment then ask a XingYi guy to spar.... His XingYi will be about as useful as the ability to play tennis. That is why it turns into kickboxing. The entire footwork is to close the groin target, if you don't allow groin hits then the footwork actually slows you down and is worthless. Think about the rules you use to spar with...

holding the rigid santi stance is the root of the problem

also that famous xingyi fightes never used "internal techniques"

[David Jamieson]

holding the rigid santi stance is the root of the problem

the second problem is if you look at history, famous xingyi fighters used brute force and charged right in, and finished the fight in a few seconds.

holding santi is for training. If someone does this while in application, they didn't get past that training wheel.

xing yi is direct and forceful. It seeks to drive straight through. In my opinion, it is the most martially usable style of the ima's. Just my opinion.

[bawang]

chinese boxing was amateur with people mostly talking and rarely sparring, thats why styles like xingyi and wingchun seemed to be very successful but for some reason cant be used today.

[taai gihk yahn]

I guess you can't see the internal at work, if you are literally fighting each other using "li" muscles, I don't think much internal is going on.

If someone is using "internal", you will not have much outside movement on the part of the person using internal, sounds like you are practicing with people just using external,
are they telling you that they are using internal?, or since their style is internal you assume they are able to apply internal?


Cheers

Kool Aide: it's not for Jonestown anymore.

[David Jamieson]

chinese boxing was amateur with people mostly talking and rarely sparring, thats why styles like xingyi and wingchun seemed to be very successful but for some reason cant be used today.

...they have to be adapted to be usable in context to what people are doing today. The same is true of any tcma. You can't expect that ritualistic dueling arts of the 17th century are applicable in a contest fight today. You have to adapt. This doesn't mean your art won't train you, won't strengthen you, won't up your ability to defend yourself and so on. It just means that if you think you want to go that extra mile and do some competing, then you will HAVE to adapt your tcma to do that. For one thing, you won't be allowed any dirty tricks. So your straight up box/kickbox and wrestling skills have to be developed.

I know guys who do wing chun that are good with it, same with xing yi. You have to meet your opponent with appropriate skill and understanding, then you can roll the dice and take your chances.

[RenDaHai]

chinese boxing was amateur with people mostly talking and rarely sparring, thats why styles like xingyi and wingchun seemed to be very successful but for some reason cant be used today.

They are just out of context as Dave said. And the Chinese had countless battles where countless thousands died, all utilised some MA techniques. Xing Yi is a particularly famous and well used one.


What the actual situation life throws us will be is unknowable, and which skill set will help us to confront it best is also unknowable. If one knows himself it will be of the greatest help. So I think a spiritual MA is wonderful as self knowledge is its goal. 'Internal' is just not a great word to use.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Taking a weapons skill and making it "bare handed" doesn't always work and when it does, it doesn't always work as well.
It needs LOTS of "pressure testing".

[ShaolinDan]

Well, anyway, during the few months I trained in Aikido, we were instructed to visualize our ki extending beyond our arms--this was done to promote the kind of relaxed structural strength that redirection skills depend on. Whether it's a good training practice or not, I'd certainly consider that an internal practice. :)

[ShaolinDan]

Taking a weapons skill and making it "bare handed" doesn't always work and when it does, it doesn't always work as well.
It needs LOTS of "pressure testing".

Maybe not the best way to train unarmed combat--but it's certainly an efficient way to teach soldiers to fight if they happen to get disarmed.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Maybe not the best way to train unarmed combat--but it's certainly an efficient way to teach soldiers to fight if they happen to get disarmed.

Think about what you just wrote...

[ShaolinDan]

Well, I know what I wrote. Soldiers spend most of their time training weapons. The less time you spend on unarmed combat the more time you can drill them with their weapons. If you have a spear division and you can show them how to perform their spear skills unarmed then they don't need to drill a new set of techniques for unarmed combat.

[ShaolinDan]

Efficiency isn't equal to results, it is equal to results/time.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well, I know what I wrote. Soldiers spend most of their time training weapons. The less time you spend on unarmed combat the more time you can drill them with their weapons. If you have a spear division and you can show them how to perform their spear skills unarmed then they don't need to drill a new set of techniques for unarmed combat.

And that is a sure fired way of getting yourself killed on the battlefield.
You don't go chopping for wood with a saw.

Losing your spear and trying to fight short distance and EMPTY handed with LONG range and sharp weapon skills makes as much sense as trying to swim in water like you ride a bike on land.

[ShaolinDan]

Maybe. I've never studied xingyi, but it looks like a pretty decent unarmed skill-set to me. I also think it's just 'neat' to be able to translate the same skills to different tools. :)

[Robinhood]

I did have that illusion when I was young. :(



So you went from illusion to delusion ?

The problem with not going internal is your external goes away as you age, its like earning money that dissolves and as you get older you can not earn as much or earn as fast as you could when you were younger.



Cheers

[Robinhood]

So how do you define the application of styles like judo or aikido where our goal is more with less. Defeating your opponent with minimal energy, using their efforts against them, utilizing stillness to overcome motion, etc. I could go on. These are a few defining principles of those as well as other arts. To achieve those we all go through the process of making large small. Refinement of technique and methods to achieve the penacle of ability and skill with what you train with the goal of being able to duplicate you training during actual use.

just for the sake of this discussion, at the climax of Ueshiba's career, would one consider his application of aikido internalized?

You can be "Internal" without any style, styles are just tools to help you develop "internal".

"internal" description that seems to make sense is "steel wrapped in cotton", where external is "steel shell, hollow core".

Internal is not about techniques,it is more about motor system.


Cheers

[IronFist]

http://supplementgenius.com/consumer/files/nope.jpeg



And to answer Lucas's question.....Yes, Ueshiba learned from many different arts and made something to call his own. It would be fair to say he "internalized" his art but I don't feel that this is the same thing people talk about when pajama kung fu players say "internal". Any exceptional athlete, artist, musician, etc can be said to have "internalized" their chosen skill.

Agreed, and that's why I didn't use that term earlier, because I didn't want confusion.

"Internalizing" a skill means you have achieved a level of unconscious competence, eg. you do it correctly without thinking about it.

It's like after you have learned to ride a bike, you have internalized it, you can do it without concentrating on it, while doing other things like talking to your friend, and you can automatically make corrections if you start to lose your balance, etc.

But like you said, that has nothing to do with "internal" as in "internal martial arts."

[pazman]

Aikido became more "internal" when O sensei got older and more "enlightened".
But what made a name for Aikido was what Ueshiba ( and the likes of Shioda too), did when they were younger ie: fight and kick ass.
Ueshiba was a huge fan of strength training by the way and his early aikido showed that ( as did his first generation students).
At 5ft-1 and over 160lbs of muscle, he was a pitbull.
What Aikido cme to be after that and is to the most part today ( though a few groups are still very old school), is a shadow of the practical Aikido of a "young" O Sensei.

I trained in Aikido for 6 years in Japan. I never once heard anything about "internal" development with regards to martial arts, and certainly no "ki" visualization exercises. Our dojo had a weight rack and a throwing dummy.

I think people too often look at how famous martial artists trained in their elder years and neglect the types of training that permitted them to reach "high levels" of development.

Don't do deadlift? No gongfu.:cool:

[bawang]

You can't expect that ritualistic dueling arts of the 17th century are applicable in a contest fight today. You have to adapt.

its not because of ritual dueling. its because it doesnt work.


xingyi fighters were famous for starting and finishing a fight in 1 second, with one punch. modern times emphasize complicated bridging maneuvers. thats why it doesnt work.



What the actual situation life throws us will be is unknowable, and which skill set will help us to confront it best is also unknowable.

shaolin 24 cannons consists of 24 variations of jab cross.
meihuaquan 36 consists of 36 variations of jab and cross.

while other styles may have none. some just arent realistic and dont have the skill set.

for some styles you cant adapt. you just have to admit its not useful for fighting and learn kickboxing. this is the hard truth.

[IronFist]

bawang is qi blasting truth all over the place in this thread.

[sanjuro_ronin]

bawang is qi blasting truth all over the place in this thread.

When you actually study the history of MA, you tend to NOT have many delusions.

[Mike Patterson]

its not because of ritual dueling. its because it doesnt work.


xingyi fighters were famous for starting and finishing a fight in 1 second, with one punch. modern times emphasize complicated bridging maneuvers. thats why it doesnt work.



shaolin 24 cannons consists of 24 variations of jab cross.
meihuaquan 36 consists of 36 variations of jab and cross.

while other styles may have none. some just arent realistic and dont have the skill set.

for some styles you cant adapt. you just have to admit its not useful for fighting and learn kickboxing. this is the hard truth.




bawang is qi blasting truth all over the place in this thread.


Ummm.. no.

Mike Patterson
(702) 278-9130
email me at: www.hsing-i.com


I will be happy to entertain either of you two gentlemen's perspecties at any time you care to visit me. I'm in the book in Las Vegas. Look me up next time you're in town.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ummm.. no.

Mike Patterson
(702) 278-9130
email me at: www.hsing-i.com


I will be happy to entertain either of you two gentlemen's perspecties at any time you care to visit me. I'm in the book in Las Vegas. Look me up next time you're in town.

I'm sorry Shifu but "one exception" does NOT a rule make.

[Mike Patterson]

I'm sorry Shifu but "one exception" does NOT a rule make.

I think that you and me BOTH know I am not the ONLY one, Sanjuro. And let's not forget that just little old me was able to train numerous others to do the same thing.

It all boils down to context and understanding. And you well know that my feet are firmly grounded when it comes to what IMA is and is not.

The fact that there are so many people out there hiding behind mysticism to try to cover for their lack of true skill is not my fault, or the fault of any other legitimate practitioner.

But if any one of you wants to c**p on what we do, feel free to stop by any time.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think that you and me BOTH know I am not the ONLY one, Sanjuro. And let's not forget that just little old me was able to train numerous others to do the same thing.

It all boils down to context and understanding. And you well know that my feet are firmly grounded when it comes to what IMA is and is not.

The fact that there are so many people out there hiding behind mysticism to try to cover for their lack of true skill is not my fault, or the fault of any other legitimate practitioner.

But if any one of you wants to c**p on what we do, feel free to stop by any time.

And you are Shifu and another fine example is William CC Chen, BUT we also both know that the vast majority of "IMA" do NOT practice the "martial" of their art as much as they should or HOW they should.

[bawang]

But if any one of you wants to c**p on what we do, feel free to stop by any time.

i am on my way in my helicopter right now

[Mike Patterson]

And you are Shifu and another fine example is William CC Chen, BUT we also both know that the vast majority of "IMA" do NOT practice the "martial" of their art as much as they should or HOW they should.

We have both already agreed upon that, Sanjuro.

But broad sweeping statements that encompass ALL IMA practitioners are both ignorant and in bad taste.

My offer will always stand to anyone who tries to lump us all together in such a manner.

And if looking me up is too much trouble for them, that's fine as I travel frequently and I'm sure I can eventually get to their respective neck of the woods. All they need do is come out from behind their masks. And if that it too painful for them... well, PM can be used as well. ;)

[Mike Patterson]

i am on my way in my helicopter right now


Sure you are.

Why don't you PM me with your actual identity, Bawang?

[sanjuro_ronin]

We have both already agreed upon that, Sanjuro.

But broad sweeping statements that encompass ALL IMA practitioners are both ignorant and in bad taste.

My offer will always stand to anyone who tries to lump us all together in such a manner.

And if looking me up is too much trouble for them, that's fine as I travel frequently and I'm sure I can eventually get to their respective neck of the woods. All they need do is come out from behind their masks. And if that it too painful for them... well, PM can be used as well. ;)

With all due respect Shifu, your issue shouldn't be with those calling BS on the IMA that are giving IMA a bad name, it should be on those that are going around with "no touch ko's", "chi is a mystical force", "Internal MA are superiour to external ones", etc, etc.

Have you read the posts from "robinhood" on this thread? ( just as an example):


You mean sport fighting with rules, if you are going to be doing sport fighting, then train external , because conditioning , muscles , strength and speed are main aspects needed to win with most sport rules. I think "technical brawling" is more of what your watching, not really an "art", if being bigger and stronger always wins where is the "art" of slow defeating fast, or weak defeating strong.

I was watching some fights the other day, tough guys, but when they got poked in the eyes or hit in the balls, they could not continue. What does that tell you about effectiveness and training ?


Cheers

[Robinhood]

With all due respect Shifu, your issue shouldn't be with those calling BS on the IMA that are giving IMA a bad name, it should be on those that are going around with "no touch ko's", "chi is a mystical force", "Internal MA are superiour to external ones", etc, etc.

Have you read the posts from "robinhood" on this thread? ( just as an example):

Their is nothing in my post that is not true, if you don't understand it, that is probably because you can't compare IMA to EMA because you only know EMA, if you find someone that went from external to internal which one is more efficient he will not say external, because external leads to internal, not internal leads to external.


Cheers

[Mike Patterson]

With all due respect Shifu, your issue shouldn't be with those calling BS on the IMA that are giving IMA a bad name, it should be on those that are going around with "no touch ko's", "chi is a mystical force", "Internal MA are superiour to external ones", etc, etc.

Have you read the posts from "robinhood" on this thread? ( just as an example):

Yes I did. I read the entire thread over the last few days. Most of it is rehashed B.S. that occurs here every other month. I pay very little attention to people like Robinhood simply because he makes generalized statements with no substantiation.

And I think you know full well that I DO have issue with those giving IMA a bad name and do everything I can to combat that at every turn.

I ALSO however have issue with people that hide behind internet masks making broad sweeping statements that include legitimate practitioners in same. If any person wants to call this or that practitioner a fraud that is pumping out garbage, feel free. That does not offend me and it should be said. But if they include ALL of us, such as Bawang did in his statement about Xingyi being ineffectual in modern terms, then I am indeed offended, as anyone should and would be. As I said, such statements are in very poor taste.

[bawang]

Sure you are.

Why don't you PM me with your actual identity, Bawang?

my name steve

steve johnson

[Mike Patterson]

my name steve

steve johnson

I gave you my name, my location, my phone number and a way to reach me through email. Care to reciprocate, "Steve"?

[wenshu]

Steve Johnson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stevens%E2%80%93Johnson_syndrome)

[bawang]

I gave you my name, my location, my phone number and a way to reach me through email. Care to reciprocate, "Steve"?

noe im scares

[Mike Patterson]

I will be teaching for the rest of the day without break, and I'm quite sure this will end the way it always does anyways, so it's been fun.

Sanjuro, the reason I speak up when I see such things written is that I have always believed reticence to be equivalent to agreement. Once such garbage goes into the net, it's permanent. I simply don't want the voice of ignorance to be the only voice out there.

Kind Regards to all who truly do care about the state of martial arts in general. For this is where my head lies as well.

[Mike Patterson]

noe im scares

Yep.. right on cue. ;)

[SPJ]

Kara te; a ki jutsu; ju jitsu etc also have theory and practice about ki chi.
Even shaolin has neigong and qi gong practice.
In short, internal practice is not unique to taichi or ba gua alone.

[Hebrew Hammer]

Sifu Patterson, you should know by now there is no defense against the internet. Challenging a few people to come by never proves much except that they won't show. I have seen your Xinyi, and do not doubt your Internal skills...whatever that means.

If it were me, you'd be better served continuing to train and develop excellent students and if you wanted to expand outsiders perception of internal arts you could produce some additional 'full speed' sparring session vids that are accessible to the general public. I know that won't quiet the detractors but it could a long way to winning over those with an open mind.

The Holy Grail of Internal demonstration (not for me) would be you defeating a UFC/MMA champion in single combat! :eek: I'm kind of kidding...

PS I've challenged Bawang to a duel myself, he fights like a girl. Here is one of his training clips.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xr2nVh0XG4w

[IronFist]

Hold on, was a challenge just issued in this thread or did I read that wrong?

Even if Mike Patterson beats up bawang, does that prove anything?

I just wanna see some IMA skills that can't be explained away by physics (like breaking the bottom brick) or by physical conditioning (like sledgehammers to the stomach where the recipient is flexing every muscle in his body), by physics (like when they break the pole over the guy's back well behind its center of gravity), or by sleight of hand (like breaking the brick on the edge of the step and lifting it slightly at the last second) and saying it's because of their magic qi powers.

I didn't know people were gonna fight :eek:

And even if an external MA guy wins, that doesn't mean IMA isn't real, it just means the external guy was a better fighter on that day.

This stuff should take place in a lab.

Hope this doesn't deteriorate into "if I can beat u up it means I'm right" type of ego nonsense.

Cuz that would be like taking weight lifting advice from a guy simply cuz he's a big bodybuilder and therefore he must be an expert on training.

Or like taking diet advice from someone with visible abs because they are ripped therefore must be nutrition experts.

[YouKnowWho]

internal practice is not unique to taichi or ba gua alone.

When my longfist teacher taught sword form in south Afraic, he mentioned, "No Qi, not enough Qi, don't use Li". "Internal" exists in all TCMA styles. Most people just don't talk about it.

http://www.filmy.cvwp.info/movie.php?id=mMdf07n8Mh8

[Mike Patterson]

Hold on, was a challenge just issued in this thread or did I read that wrong?

Even if Mike Patterson beats up bawang, does that prove anything?

I just wanna see some IMA skills that can't be explained away by physics (like breaking the bottom brick) or by physical conditioning (like sledgehammers to the stomach where the recipient is flexing every muscle in his body), by physics (like when they break the pole over the guy's back well behind its center of gravity), or by sleight of hand (like breaking the brick on the edge of the step and lifting it slightly at the last second) and saying it's because of their magic qi powers.

I didn't know people were gonna fight :eek:

And even if an external MA guy wins, that doesn't mean IMA isn't real, it just means the external guy was a better fighter on that day.

This stuff should take place in a lab.

Hope this doesn't deteriorate into "if I can beat u up it means I'm right" type of ego nonsense.

Cuz that would be like taking weight lifting advice from a guy simply cuz he's a big bodybuilder and therefore he must be an expert on training.

Or like taking diet advice from someone with visible abs because they are ripped therefore must be nutrition experts.


Predictable. :rolleyes:

Bawang made a statement that Xingyi is no longer viable in a modern context as a combat art. And you seemed to agree with him, Ironfist.

Well, I have proven in the past that it is indeed and can be adapted to competitive rule sets. So, obviously I strongly disagree with that perspective and stated that I am willing at any time to entertain such perspectives in person. If you wish to take that as a "challenge" then so be it.

Practioners such as myself do not, and never have made, such claims as you continually delineate ad nauseum. Legit practitioners do not appreciate the inference that we are ALL like that. So it might be nice if people like yourself would quantify your statements and not make them so all inclusive.

It's not an all or none kind of a thing, Ironfist. There are frauds in every aspect of M.A. Your notion of what "internal" is or is not does not concern me. But statements that say what I do and have done is not combat viable do indeed concern me as that is tantamount to calling me and every other legit practitoner a fraud as well. Get it?

You seem to be hung up on the word "internal". For me, it is just a name. What I do is called Xingyi or Bagua or Taiji. These are martial arts first and foremost. Anyone who thinks otherwise is simply missing the point, IMHO of course.

Now it's back to what I do best.. 'cause lord knows THIS is NOT it! ;)

[Robinhood]

Hold on, was a challenge just issued in this thread or did I read that wrong?

Even if Mike Patterson beats up bawang, does that prove anything?

I just wanna see some IMA skills that can't be explained away by physics (like breaking the bottom brick) or by physical conditioning (like sledgehammers to the stomach where the recipient is flexing every muscle in his body), by physics (like when they break the pole over the guy's back well behind its center of gravity), or by sleight of hand (like breaking the brick on the edge of the step and lifting it slightly at the last second) and saying it's because of their magic qi powers.

I didn't know people were gonna fight :eek:

And even if an external MA guy wins, that doesn't mean IMA isn't real, it just means the external guy was a better fighter on that day.

This stuff should take place in a lab.

Hope this doesn't deteriorate into "if I can beat u up it means I'm right" type of ego nonsense.

Cuz that would be like taking weight lifting advice from a guy simply cuz he's a big bodybuilder and therefore he must be an expert on training.

Or like taking diet advice from someone with visible abs because they are ripped therefore must be nutrition experts.


Beating each other is an external MA mentality, internal level people don't need to bang each other up to know who has superior abilities.

That being said an internal guy would usually have to bang an external guy up, because that is all they understand unless they have a high level of sensitivity .


Cheers

[Robinhood]

When my longfist teacher taught sword form in south Afraic, he mentioned, "No Qi, not enough Qi, don't use Li". "Internal" exists in all TCMA styles. Most people just don't talk about it.

http://www.filmy.cvwp.info/movie.php?id=mMdf07n8Mh8

It exists in all people, whether you can develop it and use it is the challenge.



Cheers

[YouKnowWho]

It exists in all people, whether you can develop it and use it is the challenge.



Cheers

So in my longfist teacher's clip, what does "No Qi, not enough Qi, don't use Li" mean to you?

[IronFist]

Predictable. :rolleyes:

Ok.


Bawang made a statement that Xingyi is no longer viable in a modern context as a combat art. And you seemed to agree with him, Ironfist.

Bawang said complicated bridging is useless in fighting, and I agreed with that. In my experience, bridging is a great concept but it breaks down against a resisting opponent. Maybe your experience differs. I'd be interested to see someone use bridging against a trained fighter.

Regarding the number of jabs and crosses and stuff, I have no idea.


Practioners such as myself do not, and never have made, such claims as you continually delineate ad nauseum. Legit practitioners do not appreciate the inference that we are ALL like that. So it might be nice if people like yourself would quantify your statements and not make them so all inclusive.

I never said all IMA guys are frauds.

I said the ones attributing their powers to mystical qi energy are.

If someone goes up on stage and takes a sledgehammer to the stomach and says it's a result of training hard and stuff, that's fine. And I think that's awesome, and definitely something to be proud of and something to admire. After all, I don't know too many people who can take a sledgehammer to the stomach.

If someone goes up on stage and takes a sledgehammer to the stomach and says it's because they moved their qi to their dan tien to protect themselves, that's different And that is the type of claim that would need to be validated because come on, they're talking about mystical energy.

I have no idea if YOU do that. I don't know who you are, although your name sounds familiar.


It's not an all or none kind of a thing, Ironfist. There are frauds in every aspect of M.A. Your notion of what "internal" is or is not does not concern me. But statements that say what I do and have done is not combat viable do indeed concern me as that is tantamount to calling me and every other legit practitoner a fraud as well. Get it?

I'm not sure where I said what you do isn't combat viable, unless you're talking about me agreeing with bawang. As far as I know, you're not one of those qi blast guys...


You seem to be hung up on the word "internal". For me, it is just a name. What I do is called Xingyi or Bagua or Taiji. These are martial arts first and foremost. Anyone who thinks otherwise is simply missing the point, IMHO of course.

What makes something "internal" to you in a martial context? That was the purpose of this thread anyway.

[Robinhood]

So in my longfist teacher's clip, what does "No Qi, not enough Qi, don't use Li" mean to you?


They all mean the same thing, he is just trying to get the guy to use his internal. But he is not able too, way to much tension in his whole body.



Cheers

[YouKnowWho]

I'd be interested to see someone use bridging against a trained fighter.

No bridging = no grappling

An octopus has to wrap it's prey before comsume it. If we look at combat from just a "striker" point of view, we may not be able to see the whole picture from all different angles.

The fast hand wrestling spirit is, "the moment that you touch, the moment that you throw." You still have to touch first, that's bridging.

http://img855.imageshack.us/img855/9103/octopuswrapprey.jpg

[YouKnowWho]

he is just trying to get the guy to use his internal. But he is not able too, way to much tension in his whole body.
That's exactly my point. Whether someone can "use internal" or he has "too much tension in his body" can both be seen, which contradict to your assumption that "internal" cannot be seen and can only be felt.


I guess you can't see the internal at work, ...

[Mike Patterson]

Bawang said complicated bridging is useless in fighting, and I agreed with that. In my experience, bridging is a great concept but it breaks down against a resisting opponent. Maybe your experience differs. I'd be interested to see someone use bridging against a trained fighter.

It is abundantly clear that you and me do not even speak the same language. "Bridging" or to "cross the bridge" is simply going from a point of non-enggagment to engagement in my lingo. There are numerous ways to accomplish this and numerous subdivisions of principles/theories/strategies to achieve same. To say what you said simply does not compute to someone like me. Such a statement belies a still developing sense of combat.



I have no idea if YOU do that. I don't know who you are, although your name sounds familiar.

What makes something "internal" to you in a martial context? That was the purpose of this thread anyway.

Oh, well then permit me to introduce myself:

My website - http://www.hsing-i.com/
Everything I believe "internal" martial arts to be can be found here. I spent a great deal of time writing all of that. I'm not going to write it again here.

My Bio - http://www.hsing-i.com/shrfu_bio/index.html

My Youtube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/mrmikepatterson?feature=results_main
Many of my fighter's full fight clips can be found here, "bridging" strategies included (just started uploading those a couple months back, more are coming when I have time), as well as dozens of clips from instructional DVD's I produce.

If, after looking at all this, my perspectives are not clear on what is and is not "internal", then feel free to question further. :)

[Robinhood]

That's exactly my point. Whether someone can "use internal" or he has "too much tension in his body" can both be seen, which contradict to your assumption that "internal" cannot be seen and can only be felt.


I can see if the condition are right, and I can see his intention, but if he is still it is a lot harder to see.

If you have it, you can see it in others. It goes with that saying "know yourself and you will know others".

But just because someone does not have tension does not mean chi is flowing. It is just one of the conditions that needs to be for chi to flow.

Well have to hit the city, to do some chi playing.

See ya

[taai gihk yahn]

[

PS I've challenged Bawang to a duel myself, he fights like a girl. Here is one of his training clips.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xr2nVh0XG4w
r u serious, or just kidding? bec that's not bawang, that's actually Uki (for real, seriously)


I pay very little attention to people like Robinhood simply because he makes generalized statements with no substantiation.
you mean like:

Beating each other is an external MA mentality, internal level people don't need to bang each other up to know who has superior abilities.

That being said an internal guy would usually have to bang an external guy up, because that is all they understand unless they have a high level of sensitivity .
yeah, that's usually how it goes down...:rolleyes:

[Dragonzbane76]

Took a break from here, come back scan through some posts and still the same ****.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I will be teaching for the rest of the day without break, and I'm quite sure this will end the way it always does anyways, so it's been fun.

Sanjuro, the reason I speak up when I see such things written is that I have always believed reticence to be equivalent to agreement. Once such garbage goes into the net, it's permanent. I simply don't want the voice of ignorance to be the only voice out there.

Kind Regards to all who truly do care about the state of martial arts in general. For this is where my head lies as well.

You know that I have the upmost respect for you Shifu, you and your students walk the walk.
I respect and admire how you come to the defense of your beloved Hsing-i and yes, you and your students are some of the few out there that ARE doing the MARTIAL art of Hsing-i.
The sad truth Shifu is that this "tired old dog" will not die because for every "Fighting Shifu" there are dozens of "non-fighting qi-fus".

[bawang]

why do you kiss his ass so much when none of you guys gave david ross any respect?

david ross students actually fight good. they are fighters. and ross is a great trainer. this guy is a stick with wobbly legs and fought horribly in some obscure kung fu tournament 10 years ago. he also teaches suicidial nonsense apps just like any other qi blaster.

[SPJ]

Xing yi staff/stick used by police in China, Taiwan and Singapore.

Xing yi broad sword and Xing yi bayonet are still used by China and Taiwan Army and marine.

Ba Gua Qin Na are still used by China and Taiwan police and special forces.

They are 6 months training and no talk about Qi.

But for general public that are interested in health.

They practice Tai chee and Ba Gua for health and qi gong.

Nothing wrong for either party.

etc etc

In fact, Tai Chi especially from Yang Chen Fu in late 1920s was designed as an exercise for general public.

In short, there are more people doing tai chee and ba gua for health.

:cool:

[SPJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWG6eglkLa8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lO-pYgvjQQ&feature=related

[sanjuro_ronin]

why do you kiss his ass so much when none of you guys gave david ross any respect?

david ross students actually fight good. they are fighters. and ross is a great trainer. this guy is a stick with wobbly legs and fought horribly in some obscure kung fu tournament 10 years ago. he also teaches suicidial nonsense apps just like any other qi blaster.

LMAO,
Play nice :D

Dave had the respect (and has) of all those here that have actually fought and that is the only respect Dave " wants".
Yes, Dave's students do fight regularly and typically ( because they go outside of "kung fu competitions") they fight a high caliber of opponents.
That said, the point that Shifu Patterson is making is that Hsing-i Can work in the competitive environment and they are proof of that.
So the real question is, why don't OTHERS in IMA do the same thing?
And no, the silliness of "IMA don't compete or fight" is BS because THAT is what Hsing-i, Taiji and Bagua were developed for and that is fighting.

[David Jamieson]

So the real question is, why don't OTHERS in IMA do the same thing?



This gets back to that misinterpretation of IMA to mean: 'a complicated and elaborate system of excuses for why you should think the pot bellied dude with breathing problems and a bad attitude should be considered a master of something"... :p

[SPJ]

off topic a bit and place everything in perspective.

modern warfare is about firepower and armor.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAsWgxZ9ASw&feature=related

use of open hand and xing yi dao.

only as last resort or close combat.

if you survive all the firepower and armor that is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTKICDsV2HU

[bawang]

That said, the point that Shifu Patterson is making is that Hsing-i Can work in the competitive environment and they are proof of that.

he teaches complicated useless "classical applications" in his dvds then proves his prowess by 10 year old videos of his students kickboxing badly. what is so original, so amazing, that he deserves so much respect? that you are calling him shifu, your second father?

why did blacktaoist, ray pina, maoshan get rediculed when this guy gets so much respect? because they all went ourside their internal bubble and were brave enough to fight real fighters, and failed. this guy plays it safe and retains his false persona of an internal badass. he is scum to me.


brendan tunks mantis student is fighting in thailand. i give that guy the respect he deserves. i respect ray even though he acted like a jakass. i respect maoshan for being brave and trying. i respect shawn obasi. dan hawley. sami berik.

[IronFist]

why did blacktaoist, ray pina, maoshan get rediculed

Wait, some of those names sound familiar.

Is blacktaoist a Bagua guy who posted a vid of him fighting a Muay Thai guy from another forum, or am I thinking of someone else?

Regardless, mad respect for any IMA or TMA guys who get in the ring with MMA and other trained fighters. That's what martial development is about; improving your ability against resisting opponents.

Why would someone be ridiculed for that? It's better to test your art in the ring than in the street.


(unless your art is too deadly for the ring http://smiliesftw.com/x/hsugh.gif (http://smiliesftw.com) )

[sanjuro_ronin]

he teaches complicated useless "classical applications" in his dvds then proves his prowess by 10 year old videos of his students kickboxing badly. what is so original, so amazing, that he deserves so much respect? that you are calling him shifu, your second father?

why did blacktaoist, ray pina, maoshan get rediculed when this guy gets so much respect? because they all went ourside their internal bubble and were brave enough to fight real fighters, and failed. this guy plays it safe and retains his false persona of an internal badass. he is scum to me.


brendan tunks mantis student is fighting in thailand. i give that guy the respect he deserves. i respect ray even though he acted like a jakass. i respect maoshan for being brave and trying. i respect shawn obasi. dan hawley. sami berik.

Tell me how you really feel, LOL !

[David Jamieson]

Black Taoist picked up ridicule for hyping fights that never happened. He also does some good things, but mostly a lot of trash talk youtube videos threatening people with the deadly etc. NO fights to date, not even ten year old crappy kick boxing events.... BUt, maybe, someday he'll come through. :)

Ray Pina got ridiculed because he was suffering from a cognative dissonance issue where he project the subject out, repeated it back and insulted everyone and anyone who said anything at all concerning the value of Kung Fu practice. This had a lot to do with him having a really poor attitude and miserable communication skills that painted him as a belligerent jerk off. When it finally got revealed that he was spending his time growing a beer belly and beating up young teenagers in some attempt to martially redeem himself...well, that was that.

Maoshan? He talked a HUGE amount of trash before that fight, got beaten and deserved the ridicule. I don't think he has to endure much of that anymore as he's toned down.

The whole thing boils down to ego. Too much = you are a jerk and you deserve to be knocked down a notch.


Mike Patterson, is at least consistent, will put up or shut up and does continue to do so.

Bawang, you are a racist jerk on many levels. I think it was at one time kind of a funny thing, but your comments that you correct yourself on are always disparaging and racially charged comments about white people and ridiculing of them. I think that is likely the source of your problem with Patterson and his persona. One comment or two? hahahaha. dozens and always thematically similar? yeah...that says something about you whether you like it or not.

Maybe you don't like the fact that one of the best internal martial arts instructors in the world isn't a Chinese guy, but it's ...dang, it's that honky dude Patterson!

Anyway, just my point of view.

[GeneChing]

Here's our Black Taoist Update thread (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=60924), launched by Ray Pina last year. :cool:

[wenshu]

Ray Pina got ridiculed because he was suffering from a cognative dissonance issue where he project the subject out, repeated it back and insulted everyone and anyone who said anything at all concerning the value of Kung Fu practice. This had a lot to do with him having a really poor attitude and miserable communication skills that painted him as a belligerent jerk off. When it finally got revealed that he was spending his time growing a beer belly and beating up young teenagers in some attempt to martially redeem himself...well, that was that.

Troll quality has definitely suffered under your tenure.

I kinda like Ray.

At least his solipsistic worldview and overcompensating ego trolling was entertaining. What it lacked in insight it made up for in bombast.

Can't even begin to say the same thing for Ironfist's.

[Robinhood]

Just because a style is supposed to be internal, does not mean they are doing internal or even practicing correctly to develop internal, usually they don't even know that the internal was lost generation's ago.

Its the practitioner that makes it internal not the style.


Cheers

[IronFist]

Who was the bagua guy who fought the MT guy? I saw a vid of that that was posted on bullshido, I think. The MT guy won but at least the bagua guy was applying his training against resisting opponents and credit is due for that. I'm sure he learned more on that day than in his entire years of bagua training prior.

edit - apparently it was Maoshan. Here's the vid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4ls7SAbN24

Had he won, think of the publicity both for himself and for Bagua!


"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."

- Theodore Roosevelt

I also think it's funny when internet tough guys on the forums want to fight the person making the post. Wouldn't it make more sense to show your art's superiority against a trained fighter? Beating an untrained skinny noob who says Wing Chun doesn't work against MMA won't prove anything.

Winning an MMA tournament with Wing Chun would prove something, and would surely get you all the e-cred you want.

(I like WC, I'm just using it as an example here. Replace it with whatever style you want and the example is still valid)

[Mike Patterson]

Form.. is not fighting. And fighting is not form. Form is training. It encompasses theory, mechanics, strategies, ideas. Those who equate the two do not understand fighting.

Fighting is fighting and it is never pretty. It is either effective or it is not. You study your system, whatever that may be. You learn about strategy and tactics, you hone your skill sets and then you either go out and execute properly and win. Or you don't, and you lose. For there is also always an element of luck in true fighting. And what figting "looks like" is, as others have already pointed out, is largely dictated by the rule set. If you look closely enough, there will be elements of the style behind the fighter. But you have to have high enough eyes to see such things.

The problem is.. most martial artist no longer fight. They only talk about fighting and they do that from a point that is solely based on theory. People like Bawang have never been on a platform, or in a cage, or in the street for that matter. So they endlessly fillibuster about nothing. Same thing goes for Robinhood. Ironfist doesn't even seem to understand what "bridging" is all about so he is clearly still a work in progress.

But it's okay. People are starting to understand these things once again.

And yes, Sanjuro, I will continue to defend and promote my beloved Xingyi for I believe it to be relevant still. And yes David, I, like you, am consistent and I think that matters. :)

Bawang.. still waiting for that PM, which oc will never come. It's always safest behind a Keyboard, eh?

[IronFist]

Ironfist doesn't even seem to understand what "bridging" is all about so he is clearly still a work in progress.

http://smiliesftw.com/x/laugh.gif (http://smiliesftw.com)

Bridging is when your forearms are touching. It's what happens in the process of "trapping."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmNh0DiuuUs

It's intentionally establishing contact with your opponents arms to do things like "feel your opponents intentions" and other chi sao type stuff. And I still agree with bawang that it doesn't really have a purpose in real fighting.

That seems to be the generally accepted definition of "bridging" in TCMA.

Unless you're talking about the wrestling technique:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_oYhFI-i7ByY/TDyfR5aMdzI/AAAAAAAAAKQ/j1xPh7RrUrs/s1600/wrestlers_bridge2.gif

If you refer to something else as "bridging," it's not my fault for not knowing it.

[wenshu]

I am actually interested to hear why bawang thinks xingyi is ineffective.

More often than not when you strip away the hyperbole and off color humor you find he has a legitimate and well sourced reason for his opinions. Not saying I'll agree with it but the kid tends to know his ****.

Or I could go the Forum Thug route and challenge everyone who offends my delicate sensibilities. That's certainly one way to carry it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I am actually interested to hear why bawang thinks xingyi is ineffective.

More often than not when you strip away the hyperbole and off color humor you find he has a legitimate and well sourced reason for his opinions. Not saying I'll agree with it but the kid tends to know his ****.

Or I could go the Forum Thug route and challenge everyone who offends my delicate sensibilities. That's certainly one way to carry it.

I think that Bawang said that the way Xingi is done NOW ( over emphaises on forms and "bridging" ) is ineffective and that in the "olden times" it was more of a "one punch, one kill" system.

[wenshu]

I think that Bawang said that the way Xingi is done NOW ( over emphaises on forms and "bridging" ) is ineffective and that in the "olden times" it was more of a "one punch, one kill" system.

Yeah that's it, I'm curious about where he got that.

[Mike Patterson]

[QUOTE=IronFist;1170362]http://smiliesftw.com/x/laugh.gif (http://smiliesftw.com)

Bridging is when your forearms are touching. It's what happens in the process of "trapping."
[QUOTE]

Nope. If your forearms are touching, you are already way past the bridging stage and into full on engagement.

Like I said, Ironfist... we don't speak the same language. I teach fighting for a living so I look at things differently.

Bridging is the act of getting to the point of initial engagement. It can be accomplished many ways. Direct trapping is certainly an option against an extended guard, but it will never work against a closed guard. Bridging can also be accomplished by combination, provocation, invitation, flanking, etc., etc., etc.

If you say that your way is the way TCMA view, then all I can say is that you don't run in the same circles that I do, which I had already ascertained.

I was educated in the old way. WE have many ways to do all things. ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

[QUOTE=IronFist;1170362]http://smiliesftw.com/x/laugh.gif (http://smiliesftw.com)

Bridging is when your forearms are touching. It's what happens in the process of "trapping."
[QUOTE]

Nope. If your forearms are touching, you are already way past the bridging stage and into full on engagement.

Like I said, Ironfist... we don't speak the same language. I teach fighting for a living so I look at things differently.

Bridging is the act of getting to the point of initial engagement. It can be accomplished many ways. Direct trapping is certainly an option against an extended guard, but it will never work against a closed guard. Bridging can also be accomplished by combination, provocation, invitation, flanking, etc., etc., etc.

If you say that your way is the way TCMA view, then all I can say is that you don't run in the same circles that I do, which I had already ascertained.

I was educated in the old way. WE have many ways to do all things. ;)

This is really one of the big issues we seem to have.
I see this in WC and in Taiji and many other systems.
One mans' Xingi is not another and we seem to be "inundated" with what is clearly not being "spoken" in the same language.

I got my first glimps of this in WC when exposed to different "understandings" of Chisao and saw the same thing in Taiji with push hands.
As an example:
The typical Yang Tiaji push hands was a very impractical "sensitivity" drill, while the Chen Taiji I saw was more like "clinch fighting".

Of course THE issue is that what we tend to hear is ( in regards tot he practical expression of IMA):
That isn't the "real" *insert IMA here* but just "brawling" or "poor kickboxing".
That we tend to hear that from other "IMA" practitioners speaks volumes, no?

[Mike Patterson]

Of course THE issue is that what we tend to hear is ( in regards tot he practical expression of IMA):
That isn't the "real" *insert IMA here* but just "brawling" or "poor kickboxing".
That we tend to hear that from other "IMA" practitioners speaks volumes, no?

Oh yes... been there done that ad infinitum, Sanjuro. Back in the youth of the internet, I had people tell me that what I was doing was not real IMA. And when I would ask them to define it, they could not. Thing is.. I can. And not only can I define it, I can teach it, use it, teach others to use it, etc.

One especially long winded fellow told me; "Well, so what that you can fight like ten tigers, that doesn't mean you are doing real IMA". So I asked him to define what real IMA was and he listed out a few qualities.. so I had him look at me doing form and asked him publicly if he thought I had those same qualities. He had to say I did indeed.

So what the hell? These are supposed to be martial arts, are they not? IF... I can demonstrate proper form and function.. demonstrate all qualities that are supposed to be embodied in same AND I can both use it effectively as well as teach others. What does that make me? Am I NOT an Internal martial artist?

Some people have a very odd view of the martial arts in my opinion, Sanjuro. I prefer to stick with fighters. They tend to all hold the same views.

[Hebrew Hammer]

Finding good IMA's is like finding good Ninjitsu or Aikido, its exists...it takes a higher degree of skill to execute well in my opinion, and is difficult to find because of the mysticism surrounding these arts they also draws lots of pretenders...you could say that about most martial arts I suppose, but in particular these arts have taken the brunt of it.

I admire great examples of these arts when I see it, I just don't think I could particularly execute them well myself. Just stylisticly and mind sent. Much more of a hard stylist myself.

This same argument goes on all the time in Aikido forums as well. The softening of the present day Aikido much like the fitness versions of Tai Chi. AT one time I checked out many of the Aikido dojo's locally and only found one or two who practiced a harder more realistic 'style'. I tried it but found that I wasn't good at blending...I want to direct my attacks rather than counter.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Oh yes... been there done that ad infinitum, Sanjuro. Back in the youth of the internet, I had people tell me that what I was doing was not real IMA. And when I would ask them to define it, they could not. Thing is.. I can. And not only can I define it, I can teach it, use it, teach others to use it, etc.

One especially long winded fellow told me; "Well, so what that you can fight like ten tigers, that doesn't mean you are doing real IMA". So I asked him to define what real IMA was and he listed out a few qualities.. so I had him look at me doing form and asked him publicly if he thought I had those same qualities. He had to say I did indeed.

So what the hell? These are supposed to be martial arts, are they not? IF... I can demonstrate proper form and function.. demonstrate all qualities that are supposed to be embodied in same AND I can both use it effectively as well as teach others. What does that make me? Am I NOT an Internal martial artist?

Some people have a very odd view of the martial arts in my opinion, Sanjuro. I prefer to stick with fighters. They tend to all hold the same views.

It goes back to the old "form VS function" my friend.
To many it MUST look like xingi ( as in how the moves are done in a form) for it be xingi.
It is the same critique leveled at many TCMA ( WC comes to mind) and the more different a MA looks in practice, the more different it is "suppose" to look like in a fight.
We don't see that and as such the criticism leveled is, to a degree, valid.

[bawang]

I think that is likely the source of your problem with Patterson and his persona. One comment or two? hahahaha. dozens and always thematically similar? yeah...that says something about you whether you like it or not.



many internal and kung fu people in general i met have tried to sucker punch me. and i take it out on the internet. when i see someone make a post that reminds me of those peoople i sh1t on them for fun. i am very open about my reasons.

as for racism, i work out alot now and it makes me ornery. sometimes i take it too far so i edit them. i apologize if i come off that way. deep inside i am white just like you. i just have a bad case of jaundice.

also, i dont know if you know this, but the only reason i come to this forum is to p1ss people off.

[David Jamieson]

many internal and kung fu people in general i met have tried to sucker punch me. and i take it out on the internet. when i see someone make a post that reminds me of those peoople i sh1t on them for fun. i am very open about my reasons.

as for racism, i work out alot now and it makes me ornery. sometimes i take it too far so i edit them. i apologize if i come off that way. deep inside i am white just like you. i just have a bad case of jaundice.

also, i dont know if you know this, but the only reason i come to this forum is to p1ss people off.

1. Then they aren't internal kung fu people, they're idiots.
2. lol at internalized resentment.
3. Yes, I know that.

[Mike Patterson]

It goes back to the old "form VS function" my friend.
To many it MUST look like xingi ( as in how the moves are done in a form) for it be xingi.
It is the same critique leveled at many TCMA ( WC comes to mind) and the more different a MA looks in practice, the more different it is "suppose" to look like in a fight.
We don't see that and as such the criticism leveled is, to a degree, valid.


The many are ignorant, Sanjuro, nothing more.

The following quote is from Chen Pan Ling's original book on Tai Chi Chuan. For those of you who know who this man was, I need say nothing else. For those of you who don't, do some research. He was a peerless boxer in his time.

"You can practice Tai Chi using large circular movements; but combat conditions requre small, curved movement."

IMA in practice is practice only. The method of practice allows us to feel each body part and its respective role within the context of fluid power dynamics. Once those qualities have been absorbed and then IMA is used for fighting, the movement structures will no longer be recognizable to other than a highly trained eye.

Form... is NOT fighting. Fighting is fighting.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The many are ignorant, Sanjuro, nothing more.

The following quote is from Chen Pan Ling's original book on Tai Chi Chuan. For those of you who know who this man was, I need say nothing else. For those of you who don't, do some research. He was a peerless boxer in his time.

"You can practice Tai Chi using large circular movements; but combat conditions requre small, curved movement."

IMA in practice is practice only. The method of practice allows us to feel each body part and its respective role within the context of fluid power dynamics. Once those qualities have been absorbed and then IMA is used for fighting, the movement structures will no longer be recognizable to other than a highly trained eye.

Form... is NOT fighting. Fighting is fighting.

And see, THIS is why Shifu Patterson has my respect.
This is what people who DO, know and what people who don't do, have no clue about.
I would simply add to that in saying this:
It is in fighting that all the "secrets" are unlocked and I venture to say that unless one DOES fight they will never truly understand their art.

[IronFist]

It goes back to the old "form VS function" my friend.
To many it MUST look like xingi ( as in how the moves are done in a form) for it be xingi.
It is the same critique leveled at many TCMA ( WC comes to mind) and the more different a MA looks in practice, the more different it is "suppose" to look like in a fight.
We don't see that and as such the criticism leveled is, to a degree, valid.

Even though that's a different argument, I'm on that side of the fence.

If you train WC vertical fist centerline punches all day from YJKYM and then in a fight take a kickboxing stance and throw crosses and hooks, you're not doing WC.

Some people will say "BUT WE ARE USING WC PRINCIPLES THEREFORE IT IS WC."

To that I say lol.

Every art says that. Every art has pretty much the same principles, you know, things like "efficient use of power" (there are no arts that say "we use power and motion inefficiently"), or "keep good balance" (there are no arts that say "we intentionally fight from a mechanically disadvantageous position"), or "strike your opponent's weak points" (there are no arts that say "we aim for targets that won't do much damage").

The "principles" of every martial art are:

- defeat your opponent
- use focus, strength, leverage, power, speed
- protect yourself

So how do martial arts differ? In their application of those same principles.

A WC punch is different from a boxing punch.

A WC stance is different from a boxing stance.

WC blocks are different from boxing crab defense.

etc.

(I use WC and boxing as examples because they are very different)

It is laughable for a WC guy to step into the ring, throw jabs, crosses, and hooks, shell up for defense, and then claim he was using WC. He was boxing. Sure, maybe his WC training influences his approach to boxing, maybe he aimed his jabs and crosses at his opponent's centerline, but he was still boxing, not doing WC.

These people might as well speak Spanish and claim they are speaking German. After all, both Spanish and German have the same principles, you know, the use of nouns and verbs and conveying information.

But there's an even more important point that those people are missing:

Why train one way if you're going to fight another way? That goes against everything sport science knows about everything!

Neurologically speaking, training punches chambered at your hip all day does not carry over to punches thrown from a boxing stance chambered at your chin as well as training punches from a boxing stance chambered at your chin all day does.

Training WC punches from YJKYM has minimal carryover to boxing style punches from a boxing stance. Therefore, if you are going to fight in a boxing stance, you are wasting your time training in YJKYM if the purpose of your training is to make you a better fighter.

If when someone fights, it looks like kickboxing, they should spend their time training to be as strong as efficient in kickboxing as possible. Otherwise it's like playing checkers all day in order to prepare for a chess match.

And don't even get me started on the people who boast that they spend 45 minutes on Sil Lum Tao, the first 40 of which on the slow tan sao at the beginning.

This stuff is up there with qi blasts, "weights make you slow and inflexible," and "lift with your tendons, not your muscles."

You can't blame people for thinking this stuff, though. Most of them are given this misinformation from their instructor, and most people dare not question their instructor (lest they be qi blasted for their insolence or whatever).

[IronFist]

It is in fighting that all the "secrets" are unlocked and I venture to say that unless one DOES fight they will never truly understand their art.

I'll agree with this 100%.

You can replace "fight" with "training against a resisting opponent" and it's still true.

Just so long as you're not doing a 10 hit combo against someone who left their arm extended after they threw a punch that wasn't going to hit you even if you didn't block it.

[Mike Patterson]

Even though that's a different argument, I'm on that side of the fence.

If you train WC vertical fist centerline punches all day from YJKYM and then in a fight take a kickboxing stance and throw crosses and hooks, you're not doing WC.

Some people will say "BUT WE ARE USING WC PRINCIPLES THEREFORE IT IS WC."

To that I say lol.


Well... I'm not able to speak about the WC aspect of your diatribe, Ironfist as that is not my system. But you may have just answered your own original thread query in your twisted logic.

To an internal martial arts practitioner, form is training only, and a means to an end. It is not considered the end unto itself.

For us to be able to learn our methodology of mechanics, the movements initially must be big. Otherwise, a student has little to no hope of actually understanding how the body works in our way.

So "internal" to me, is a system of training... nothing more. You may not agree with our system as we see it, but it is our method and it works if done properly.

Just one simple (well, relatively) example. Pi (splitting) is composed of two parts in our system in relation to "form" and has a footwork that is a step through and half step follow up in relation to it's "form". But to us it is a template of how to utilize a certain body mechanic in relation to force. Namely up to down.

In addition to the standard footwork found in the initial "Pi" movement, however, we also have variants of footwork in terms of when force is released. I.E. front foot, rear foot, conjoined.

So... if in a fighting context, I am to use "Pi".. am I then constrained to using only the archetype of its original form? Or can I utilize the first part of the form only? The second part of the form only? May I use it with front foot, or rear foot, or conjoined release in terms of timing? If I do none of these things, then it would NOT be Xingyi.. but if I utilize any of these things in conjunction with proper body mechanics, then it most certainly is Xingyi.

If you don't get that it's not my problem. But that is the "internal" way.

[Mike Patterson]

I'll agree with this 100%.

You can replace "fight" with "training against a resisting opponent" and it's still true.

Just so long as you're not doing a 10 hit combo against someone who left their arm extended after they threw a punch that wasn't going to hit you even if you didn't block it.

Nope. A "resisting opponent" is still training.... not fighting. :rolleyes:

[IronFist]

We must have different opinions about what a "resisting opponent" is.

[Mike Patterson]

We must have different opinions about what a "resisting opponent" is.

Doubtful. But I'm QUITE SURE we have different opinions about what fighting is.. ;)

[Golden Arms]

We must have different opinions about what a "resisting opponent" is.

IronFist,

Its likely that Mr. Patterson has been training for close to as long as you have been alive. Maybe its best not to assume you are a peer?

On a side note, since you mention tendon based movement as a fallacy from time to time:

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/tendon-strength-training-7

"Interestingly, research using electromyography as an indicator of calf muscle activity during running shows that the calf muscles are very active during the dorsiflexion phase and not active during the plantarflexion phase. This is contrary to what you might expect, as the theoretical role of the calf muscles is to contract concentrically (shorten) when the ankle plantarflexes. So how can the ankle plantarflex without any activity from the calf muscle? The answer is that the Achilles tendon is stretched during the dorsiflexion phase of the ankle movement, and the elastic energy stored during stretching is then released when the Achilles shortens. During running, the role of the calf muscle is to control the movement of the ankle with an eccentric (lengthening) contraction during the dorsiflexion (shock absorbing) phase, while the role of the Achilles tendon is to release energy while it shortens to plantarflex the ankle and push off the ground."

There are several arts that use the muscles, gravity, and/or the opponent's force to load the connective tissues as a spring like unit. The resulting release of force is in large then performed by the tendons and connective tissue like a spring as the loading force is removed. This is a different method of generating force both in feel and method than simply engaging the muscles to contract and move the frame themselves (which will use some tendon elasticity as well, but with different emphasis).

[YouKnowWho]

Bridging is when your forearms are touching.

It should be much early than that. The

- arm bridging start when your hand touch your opponent's wrist.
- leg bridging start when your shin bone bite into your opponent's leg.

There are 3 gates in arm bridging:

1st gate - hand touch wrist,
2nd gate - forearm touch forearm,
3rd gate- forearm touch upper arm (arm wrap), shoulder (overhook, underhook), neck (head lock), waist (bear hug, waist surround), ...

When you have arrived the 2nd gate (your hand pass your opponent's wrist), you are already in "clinching".

[IronFist]

Doubtful. But I'm QUITE SURE we have different opinions about what fighting is.. ;)

Ok.


IronFist,

Its likely that Mr. Patterson has been training for close to as long as you have been alive. Maybe its best not to assume you are a peer?

Vids of Mr. Patterson fighting? With the way everyone here is continually deferring to him, I assume he's some supreme grandmaster who defeats challengers of all styles, so I'd like to get on board that train.


On a side note, since you mention tendon based movement as a fallacy from time to time:

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/tendon-strength-training-7

"Interestingly, research using electromyography as an indicator of calf muscle activity during running shows that the calf muscles are very active during the dorsiflexion phase and not active during the plantarflexion phase. This is contrary to what you might expect, as the theoretical role of the calf muscles is to contract concentrically (shorten) when the ankle plantarflexes. So how can the ankle plantarflex without any activity from the calf muscle? The answer is that the Achilles tendon is stretched during the dorsiflexion phase of the ankle movement, and the elastic energy stored during stretching is then released when the Achilles shortens. During running, the role of the calf muscle is to control the movement of the ankle with an eccentric (lengthening) contraction during the dorsiflexion (shock absorbing) phase, while the role of the Achilles tendon is to release energy while it shortens to plantarflex the ankle and push off the ground."

There are several arts that use the muscles, gravity, and/or the opponent's force to load the connective tissues as a spring like unit. The resulting release of force is in large then performed by the tendons and connective tissue like a spring as the loading force is removed. This is a different method of generating force both in feel and method than simply engaging the muscles to contract and move the frame themselves (which will use some tendon elasticity as well, but with different emphasis).

That's not "lifting with your tendons." Misguided MA instructors tell people to lift with their tendons to avoid getting big muscles (you know, cuz it's so easy to accidentally hypertrophy, and you certainly wouldn't want that since "muscles make you slow and inflexible"). Tendons can't contract. Nobody has ever lifted anything with their tendons.

[IronFist]

It should be much early than that. The

- arm bridging start when your hand touch your opponent's wrist.
- leg bridging start when your shin bone bite into your opponent's leg.

There are 3 gates in arm bridging:

1st gate - hand touch wrist,
2nd gate - forearm touch forearm,
3rd gate- forearm touch upper arm (arm wrap), shoulder (overhook, underhook), neck (head lock), waist (bear hug, waist surround), ...

When you have arrived the 2nd gate (your hand pass your opponent's wrist), you are already in "clinching".

I guess it's a definition thing, then. "Clinching" to me is what you think of when you see MT guys clinch. Looks like hugging :D

In a kung fu context I'd always heard "bridging" referred to as like in that vid I posted, when the forearms cross. A "bridge" to connect you to your opponent so you can "read his intentions" by feeling micro movements, like what chi sao trains to do. I don't think chi sao really has a purpose in actual fighting, but hey, if someone can make it work for them, they should keep doing it.

Of course there's a "bridge" in wrestling, too, but I don't think that's what anyone was talking about.

I love how this forum is like "YOUR DEFINITION DIFFERS FROM MINE THEREFORE YOU ARE NOT AS SKILLED AND KNOWLEDGEABLE AS I AM AND I CHALLENGE YOU TO A CHALLENGE MATCH"

http://smiliesftw.com/x/laugh.gif (http://smiliesftw.com)

Or more subtle variants of that ;)

[IronFist]

@Mr. Patterson.

I read your definition of "Internal vs. External" here:

http://www.hsing-i.com/hsing-i/IntvsExt.html

I've never heard that definition before (the geographical location), but it makes sense.

And it's a whole lot more feasible than the whole mystic qi power stuff.

Question about this:


It is also true, because of certain historical events, that nowadays the Internal school of thought focuses on not only self defense and external manifestations of ability, such as strength, stamina, flexibility and physical prowess, but also explores the inside of the practitioner’s development. Internal kung fu strengthens the internal organs and circulatory systems. It increases lymphatic circulation to aid the practitioner in removing toxins from the body more rapidly. It improves focus of mind and concentration of intellect. We also learn to apply the principles of Yin and Yang and the Five Elements, principles of redirection, absorption and reflection, evasion and entrapment, etc. These lessons are just as applicable strategically in a business m eeting as they are in self defense and confrontation. A person need only be taught their essence of expression in the practical sense. This is also part of Internal kung fu.


How does "internal" kung fu accomplish the bolded more so than "external" kung fu?

All physical exercise benefits the lymphatic system so I'm curious what added benefit "internal" kung fu provides. Same question for the circulatory system.

And by what method does "internal" kung fu "strengthen the internal organs"? Are you saying IKF does this better than EKF, or that EKF doesn't do it at all?

[YouKnowWho]

Of course there's a "bridge" in wrestling, too, but I don't think that's what anyone was talking about.

When a "striker" uses his definition that only fit in his "striking art", and when a "grappler" uses his definition that only fit in his "grappling art", the discussion will not be able to cover all areas and all angles.

[IronFist]

When a "striker" uses his definition that only fit in his "striking art", and when a "grappler" uses his definition that only fit in his "grappling art", the discussion will not be able to cover all areas and all angles.

I thought we were only talking about "fighting" by Mr. Patterson's definition (which is apparently different than my definition although neither person has volunteered a definition) :confused:

Surely real fighting involves grappling. Or can potentially involve grappling.

If not, my "striking" definition of "bridging" is still different from yours.

http://www.themartialist.com/images/wcstockphotos/IMAG0022.JPG

[YouKnowWho]

If not, my "striking" definition of "bridging" is still different from yours.

http://www.themartialist.com/images/wcstockphotos/IMAG0022.JPG
Here are the "bridge" in wrestling.

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/2178/bridgeq.png

http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/6099/bridge1.png

[IronFist]

Here are the "bridge" in wrestling.

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/2178/bridgeq.png

http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/6099/bridge1.png

u trollin' me?

This is a wrestling bridge:

http://i.imgur.com/QmzQr.jpg

[YouKnowWho]

u trollin' me?

This is a wrestling bridge:

http://i.imgur.com/QmzQr.jpg

lol .........

[Dale Dugas]

It should be much early than that. The

- arm bridging start when your hand touch your opponent's wrist.
- leg bridging start when your shin bone bite into your opponent's leg.

There are 3 gates in arm bridging:

1st gate - hand touch wrist,
2nd gate - forearm touch forearm,
3rd gate- forearm touch upper arm (arm wrap), shoulder (overhook, underhook), neck (head lock), waist (bear hug, waist surround), ...

When you have arrived the 2nd gate (your hand pass your opponent's wrist), you are already in "clinching".

Shifu,

Thank you for presenting in the clearest form, how bridging is done, and the structures involved.

Great post as always.

Thank you, sir.

[sanjuro_ronin]

A "bridge" is a connection between two ( or more) points.
That connection doesn't even have to be physcial, it just has to be.
I can "bridge" with my intent or by "faking" my opponent into the position I want him to be.
But typically a bride is made when ANY contact is made.

[sanjuro_ronin]

@Mr. Patterson.

I read your definition of "Internal vs. External" here:

http://www.hsing-i.com/hsing-i/IntvsExt.html

I've never heard that definition before (the geographical location), but it makes sense.

And it's a whole lot more feasible than the whole mystic qi power stuff.



The geographical and philosophical view is one that I have heard before and personally agree with.

[Vajramusti]

I thought we were only talking about "fighting" by Mr. Patterson's definition (which is apparently different than my definition although neither person has volunteered a definition) :confused:

Surely real fighting involves grappling. Or can potentially involve grappling.

If not, my "striking" definition of "bridging" is still different from yours.

http://www.themartialist.com/images/wcstockphotos/IMAG0022.JPG
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Iron Fist both pairs of guys are doing some bad bridging.Who taught them?

Joy chaudhuri

[David Jamieson]

But typically a bride is made when ANY contact is made.

Now that is a strict ass religion !

[sanjuro_ronin]

Now that is a strict ass religion !

LOL !
Freudian slip alert !!
:D

[Robinhood]

@Mr. Patterson.

I read your definition of "Internal vs. External" here:

http://www.hsing-i.com/hsing-i/IntvsExt.html

I've never heard that definition before (the geographical location), but it makes sense.

And it's a whole lot more feasible than the whole mystic qi power stuff.

Question about this:



How does "internal" kung fu accomplish the bolded more so than "external" kung fu?

All physical exercise benefits the lymphatic system so I'm curious what added benefit "internal" kung fu provides. Same question for the circulatory system.

And by what method does "internal" kung fu "strengthen the internal organs"? Are you saying IKF does this better than EKF, or that EKF doesn't do it at all?

Ya those definitions make sense if you are external, because they are written by someone that is external and does not know what internal is because he can't do it.


Cheers

[Mike Patterson]

@Mr. Patterson.

I read your definition of "Internal vs. External" here:

http://www.hsing-i.com/hsing-i/IntvsExt.html

I've never heard that definition before (the geographical location), but it makes sense.

And it's a whole lot more feasible than the whole mystic qi power stuff.


That is the only definition I am willing to abide by as all the others simply make no sense to me. Martial arts are martial arts. Styles vary. And so do opinions.




Question about this:


How does "internal" kung fu accomplish the bolded more so than "external" kung fu?

All physical exercise benefits the lymphatic system so I'm curious what added benefit "internal" kung fu provides. Same question for the circulatory system.

And by what method does "internal" kung fu "strengthen the internal organs"? Are you saying IKF does this better than EKF, or that EKF doesn't do it at all?

First of all... on that original page, those words are NOT IN BOLD as putting something in bold tends to change the emphasis now doesn't it?

I also do not see words such as "more so" or "better". Those are your words Ironfist. Do not put them in my mouth. :(

Now I have a very busy day today and I have no time to play with the likes of you. In short, you have become tiresome and I find precious little value in your opinions and perspectives. So you have a good day doing whatever it is that you do, okay?

And I will go back to doing what I do best.

For the rest of you who did indeed contribute something of value to this thread, I thank you. Sanjuro, David, Golden Arms, Youknowwho, SPJ... and anyone else I may have missed, it's always nice to hear what other martial artists have to say and I enjoyed reading. All have a good day and a good weekend. I will be away for a bit again. :)

[taai gihk yahn]

Ya those definitions make sense if you are external, because they are written by someone that is external and does not know what internal is because he can't do it.


Cheers

I think Gene needs to more rigorously enforce the "don't smoke crack right before posting on KFMF" rule...

[IronFist]

First of all... on that original page, those words are NOT IN BOLD as putting something in bold tends to change the emphasis now doesn't it?

I know. I bolded them myself for clarification.

It's common practice on internet forums, if quoting a large piece of text (which is often left in its entirety for context), to bold the part you are specifically asking about. I didn't want to throw a wall of text at you when I was only asking about a small part of it, so I bolded the part in question and then referenced it below so you could easily find the part I was talking about.


I also do not see words such as "more so" or "better". Those are your words Ironfist. Do not put them in my mouth. :(

In a discussion of IMA and EMA, you specifically mentioned that IMA does x and y. This implies that it is somehow different than EMA, otherwise it wouldn't have been mentioned in isolation. I was asking for clarification, but instead I got:


Now I have a very busy day today and I have no time to play with the likes of you. In short, you have become tiresome and I find precious little value in your opinions and perspectives. So you have a good day doing whatever it is that you do, okay?

(that bold was added by me, too)

http://smiliesftw.com/x/laugh.gif (http://smiliesftw.com)

I'm going to assume you just misunderstood my post and aren't really as angry and defensive as you sound in response to a question about something you wrote on your website.

So let's try again:

Your website discusses IMA vs. EMA. You then specifically mention that IMA strengthens the internal organs and increases lymphatic circulation.

I am curious how IMA does this as opposed to EMA.

[IronFist]

Ya those definitions make sense if you are external, because they are written by someone that is external and does not know what internal is because he can't do it.


Cheers



I think Gene needs to more rigorously enforce the "don't smoke crack right before posting on KFMF" rule...

What are you talking about? That was wisdom! We just didn't understand because we're not on the same level of development. Don't you know, the more someone speaks in vague concepts, the more advanced they are in their development. It just sounds like nonsense to people like you and me because we're at such a low level of development.

What we need to go do now is to meditate on what he said. Maybe one day we will hope to understand even 1/10 of his genius.

[IronWeasel]

Anyone in my school is Internal.

Anyone standing outside is External.

[taai gihk yahn]

This is how you treat the coccyx with external technique:

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/2YIZU_jltgg/0.jpg

This is how you treat it with internal technique:

http://www.aceproindia.com/ACE%20Sample%20Projects/ePUB/Examination%20and%20Diagnosis%20of%20Musculoskelet al%20Disorders/OEBPS/images/9783131605818_c009_f012.jpg

You decide...

[wenshu]

smoke crack right before posting on KFMF"


+



http://www.aceproindia.com/ACE%20Sample%20Projects/ePUB/Examination%20and%20Diagnosis%20of%20Musculoskelet al%20Disorders/OEBPS/images/9783131605818_c009_f012.jpg



=

My kind of Saturday night.

[xinyidizi]

How does "internal" kung fu accomplish the bolded more so than "external" kung fu?

All physical exercise benefits the lymphatic system so I'm curious what added benefit "internal" kung fu provides. Same question for the circulatory system.

And by what method does "internal" kung fu "strengthen the internal organs"? Are you saying IKF does this better than EKF, or that EKF doesn't do it at all?

I think the most important reason is the close relationship between qigong and internal martial arts. Internal martial arts are the fusion of (mostly Daoist) meditation/qigong and martial skills of the battlefield and as far as I know in proper training of internal martial arts both aspects should be equally emphasized. Hard external training and mediation/qigong can both benefit the body(the cardiovascular system,the nervous system, the lymphatic system,...) in different ways and are both necessary. For example hard physical training can improve your blood circulation in general but meditation can help you to relax your muscles and blood vessels so that your cells can absorb oxygen and nutrition more effectively. Another example is how qigong can help you to increase your awareness of your body by improving your nervous system and as a result help the blood flow in places that are normally left out. In my opinion the smart fusion of both internal and external training is what makes internal martial arts special.

[sanjuro_ronin]

This is how you treat the coccyx with external technique:

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/2YIZU_jltgg/0.jpg

This is how you treat it with internal technique:

http://www.aceproindia.com/ACE%20Sample%20Projects/ePUB/Examination%20and%20Diagnosis%20of%20Musculoskelet al%20Disorders/OEBPS/images/9783131605818_c009_f012.jpg

You decide...

You h ave just beat the inter(nal)net !!

[David Jamieson]

Uh, that's a lot of ass play...

kind of like one of the...cheaper massage joints. :p

[Lebaufist]

Happy ending?

[I Hate Ashida Kim]

Ya those definitions make sense if you are external, because they are written by someone that is external and does not know what internal is because he can't do it.


Cheers

Robinhood's post was a direct insult to Mike Patterson ("written by someone that is external and doesn't know internal because he can't do it"), yet he seems to have ignored it.

IronFist, on the other hand, ask a neutral question about something on his website and get a full blown ego-defensive anger response. lol.

I used to read Ashida Kim's forum back in the late 90s. His responses were always defensive, dismissive and/or insulting whenever anyone questioned him. I'm not talking about the people who were like "lol Ashida u suck," but instead people who just asked a random question about his training or his past or something they read in one of this books or anything along those lines. It was incredibly unprofessional.

Now, we all know that Ashida Kim is a fraud anyway, so that sort of behavior is to be expected. He's the guy who, because he is hiding stuff and lying and trying to maintain a "secret ninja grandmaster" frame over his few students, feels threatened when people question him so he insults them rather than answering their questions. Or he challenges them for $10,000 but the rules favor him anyway, and even when people met his challenge and put up the money, he still backed down. But isn't Mike Patterson supposed to be a respected instructor? Doesn't seem like he's handling himself in a very professional manner in this thread. I have known and worked with some excellent MA instructors in the past and none of them were ever unwilling to answer a question... especially a question about something on their own website.

Mind blowing.

[sanjuro_ronin]

As we know, internal breathing techniques of Qigong, much like those found in yoga and other systems, are very healthy for you.
The lower your blood pressure, the simulate the nervous system, release endorphins, etc...
Moving "meditation" like Taiji has been shown to be very healthy for your body and joints.
The more "vigorous" moves of the typical EMA have their place too of course, the increase bone density, strengthen muscles and joints, great for cardiovascular work ( anerobic as well as aerobic), etc...
IN other words, while both ways ALONE have benefits, BOTH TOGETHER are far better.
Yin and Yang you twats, Yin and Yang.

[Lebaufist]

A "bridge" is a connection between two ( or more) points.
That connection doesn't even have to be physcial, it just has to be.
I can "bridge" with my intent or by "faking" my opponent into the position I want him to be.
But typically a bride is made when ANY contact is made.

Love it. Where's the like button?

[IronFist]

I think the most important reason is the close relationship between qigong and internal martial arts. Internal martial arts are the fusion of (mostly Daoist) meditation/qigong and martial skills of the battlefield and as far as I know in proper training of internal martial arts both aspects should be equally emphasized. Hard external training and mediation/qigong can both benefit the body(the cardiovascular system,the nervous system, the lymphatic system,...) in different ways and are both necessary. For example hard physical training can improve your blood circulation in general but meditation can help you to relax your muscles and blood vessels so that your cells can absorb oxygen and nutrition more effectively. Another example is how qigong can help you to increase your awareness of your body by improving your nervous system and as a result help the blood flow in places that are normally left out. In my opinion the smart fusion of both internal and external training is what makes internal martial arts special.

Now that was a much better answer than what I got from Mr. Patterson.

External training also increases body awareness and improves the nervous system by creating central nervous system adaptation which allows the body to become more efficient at the movements being performed.

I see how internal, which by your definition includes meditation, can promote relaxation which is a more "yin" component compared to hard physical training which is a more "yang" component.

Can you give an example of "blood flow in places that are normally left out?" As I understand it, blood flows everywhere, otherwise ischemia results.

[IronFist]

IronFist, on the other hand, ask a neutral question about something on his website and get a full blown ego-defensive anger response. lol.

http://smiliesftw.com/x/laugh.gif (http://smiliesftw.com)

Glad I'm not the only one who noticed. that.

The late, great Mr. Erle Montaigue and I have written some long emails back and forth years ago discussing the IMA. Many times it was because I had a question about something he wrote on his website. Mr. Montaigue was a consummate professional. Even when we disagreed it still resulted in good discussion, and I can count on zero fingers the number of times Mr. Montaigue was insulting, rude, or otherwise unprofessional. Perhaps that's why I have some of his books and tapes.

He was a cool dude; the kind of guy who encourages his students to ask questions and grow as people. The kind of a guy a "sifu" should be.

[YouKnowWho]

Robinhood's post was a direct insult to Mike Patterson ("written by someone that is external and doesn't know internal because he can't do it"), yet he seems to have ignored it.

IronFist, on the other hand, ask a neutral question about something on his website and get a full blown ego-defensive anger response. lol.

There is a big difference there.

Whether you may agree with IronFist or not, you can have "normal" human level discussion with IronFist. On the other hand, you can not have "normal" discussion with Robinhood, and hope he may give you a simple and straight answer.

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://smiliesftw.com/x/laugh.gif (http://smiliesftw.com)

Glad I'm not the only one who noticed. that.

The late, great Mr. Erle Montaigue and I have written some long emails back and forth years ago discussing the IMA. Many times it was because I had a question about something he wrote on his website. Mr. Montaigue was a consummate professional. Even when we disagreed it still resulted in good discussion, and I can count on zero fingers the number of times Mr. Montaigue was insulting, rude, or otherwise unprofessional. Perhaps that's why I have some of his books and tapes.

He was a cool dude; the kind of guy who encourages his students to ask questions and grow as people. The kind of a guy a "sifu" should be.

Erle was one of the good ones, RIP.
Him and I had much discussion on Dim Mak.

[IronWeasel]

This is how you treat the coccyx with external technique:

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/2YIZU_jltgg/0.jpg

This is how you treat it with internal technique:

http://www.aceproindia.com/ACE%20Sample%20Projects/ePUB/Examination%20and%20Diagnosis%20of%20Musculoskelet al%20Disorders/OEBPS/images/9783131605818_c009_f012.jpg

You decide...



I humbly withdraw my challenge...

[Hebrew Hammer]

Erle was one of the good ones, RIP.
Him and I had much discussion on Dim Mak.

Now my curiosity is peaked...is there said thread on your discussion of Dim Mak?

[Hebrew Hammer]

I humbly withdraw my challenge...

*****...stand up and take it like Marine!

[sanjuro_ronin]

Now my curiosity is peaked...is there said thread on your discussion of Dim Mak?

Nah, it was via email, Erle was always ready to return emails and discuss things.
A true gentlemen MA if ever there was one.
I wished I had saved them, but I have many of his videos about Dim Mak and Fajing.

[Dale Dugas]

Erle was not only a professional martial arts teacher, he was a professional wrestler, professional musician, and an all around bon vivant.

He taught without holding back.

He was not one to mince words, and would back what he thought and did up.

I respected him and have learned a lot from his Dim Mak books. I had the opportunity to research him at length while treating patients at the student clinic when I was performing rounds as a student clinician.

His hand was high.

Internal to me, is not a one word answer. It is more of a concept that we try and attain, as well as maintain.

I want to train all my external skills as well as use internal skills: visualizations, meditations, Iron Palm, Iron Vest, etc.

I train physically, but train internal visualizations much more. I can take a break and go through a concept and apply it to a scenario in my minds eye.

You can train anywhere and not attract attention as I am not moving.

This is what we call Yixingong(Mind Intention Skill) in Jiulong Baguazhang. Learning to activate muscles and pretend to move, to avade, strike, kick etc, and not physically move but you "feel" as if you are performing the movements, the applications, etc.

There is an old saying:

The Yi/Mind Commands
The Body Responds
The Qi Follows

Mind Body Energy/Qi and the consolidation of the three is what I see as being internal.

[IronFist]

I train physically, but train internal visualizations much more. I can take a break and go through a concept and apply it to a scenario in my minds eye.

You can train anywhere and not attract attention as I am not moving.

There was a study done that showed that simply thinking about a technique increased neurological efficiency for that technique. In the example the test subjects thought about doing a specific exercise during the day vs. a control group that didn't think about doing that specific exercise. Both groups were prevented from actually exercising. At the end of the study, the control group had lost more strength for that exercise than the group that spent some time thinking about it.

It was interesting.

[YouKnowWho]

You can train anywhere and not attract attention as I am not moving.

Both longfist and XingYi systems uses this training method as well. In high school, when I took bus to school, I could train longfist moves in my head without moving my body. Old Chinese saying said, "When you lay down on your bed, and if you can use your legs to train your XingYi Pi Chuan, you then understand how to train with your mind."

[xinyidizi]

Can you give an example of "blood flow in places that are normally left out?" As I understand it, blood flows everywhere, otherwise ischemia results.

Yes but I was not talking about the extreme situation. How much blood goes to a specific area on your body and how much of it can be effectively absorbed and used depend on a lot of factors. There are many muscles in our body but an average human being does not use all of them equally. Physical exercise can help us to use a bigger set of them but internal martial arts like taiji, xinyi and bagua need even a bigger set of muscles being used together in order to connect the harmonies in your body and for using the whole body in fajin. In my experience the qigong aspect of internal martial arts is a very effective way for expanding the awareness to all those muscles and synchronizing them.

[sanjuro_ronin]

There was a study done that showed that simply thinking about a technique increased neurological efficiency for that technique. In the example the test subjects thought about doing a specific exercise during the day vs. a control group that didn't think about doing that specific exercise. Both groups were prevented from actually exercising. At the end of the study, the control group had lost more strength for that exercise than the group that spent some time thinking about it.

It was interesting.

They did two studies that I know of:
Basketball shooting and piano playing and in both cases the neuropathways in both those doing the actual activity and those visualizing them were just as active.
The mind doesn't distinguish between visualizing and doing ( hence the bodies responses to a dream in which we are running and wake up panting and sweaty).

[IronFist]

Yes but I was not talking about the extreme situation. How much blood goes to a specific area on your body and how much of it can be effectively absorbed and used depend on a lot of factors. There are many muscles in our body but an average human being does not use all of them equally. Physical exercise can help us to use a bigger set of them but internal martial arts like taiji, xinyi and bagua need even a bigger set of muscles being used together in order to connect the harmonies in your body and for using the whole body in fajin. In my experience the qigong aspect of internal martial arts is a very effective way for expanding the awareness to all those muscles and synchronizing them.

Can you give an example of this?

[IronFist]

They did two studies that I know of:
Basketball shooting and piano playing and in both cases the neuropathways in both those doing the actual activity and those visualizing them were just as active.
The mind doesn't distinguish between visualizing and doing ( hence the bodies responses to a dream in which we are running and wake up panting and sweaty).

The study I was thinking of was the one where they basically had the people stay in bed all day and literally do NO exercise all day. The group who spent some time imagining doing the exercises lost less strength (and possibly less muscle mass? I can't remember. I think it was just strength, hence the conclusion about neurological efficiency).

[Robinhood]

Internal needs sufficient "chi", here is a scientific talk about "chi", I just saw

Enjoy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcp6J1T60qc&feature=related



Cheers

[xinyidizi]

Can you give an example of this?

If you are actually interested to know more I suggest you find a good teacher and learn because I don't know how to share my awareness. It can only be learned and experienced by yourself.

[ShaolinDan]

It might not be a bad idea to merge all the 'what is internal?' threads into one super thread to rival shaolin-do...if any mod actually is up for taking(wasting?) the time to do that. :)

[ShaolinDan]

NVM. Just remembered you can't because every 'internal' thread ends up locked. :p

[Blacktiger]

All we need is a challange match and all will be complete, or have we already had one of those;)

[IronWeasel]

Can you give an example of this?


Sorry to hijack...but this makes me think of punching.

Some use only the muscles in the arm to throw a punch.



We use the legs, abs (for hip rotation), shoulders and arms.

More muscles involved, and larger ones as well.