Finish Strategy

[YouKnowWho]

Unleass you can knock or kick your opponent down and hurt your opponent badly, your opponent may still come back at you and the fight is not over yet. If you take your opponent down, you can finish him on the ground with arm bar, leg bar, choke, ... you can also finish him with "follow on striking". Many effective finish moves are:

- kick your opponent's head when he is down (IMO, this is the most effective finish move. A friend of mine his son was killed by this).
- smash the back of your opponent's head to the ground (skull cracking).
- drop your opponent's head directly to the ground (air plane crashing).
- drop your knee on your opponent's chest (ribs breaking).
- drop your knee into your opponent's groin (nuts smashing).
- drop your elbow on your opponent's throat (wind pipe smashing).
- drop your elbow on your opponent's heart (heart breaking).
- ...

"Combat" or "sport", those finish strategy just don't obtain enough attention (or training time) as arm bar, leg bar, and choke. How to "execute" those finish strategy is one thing. How to "set up" those finish strategy is another. Those finish strategy will require you to throw your opponent in certain way that your leg, hand, knee, elbow, can reach to your opponent's desired body part. This will require "planning" which is not be as simple as it may look. For example, if you throw your opponent too far, your kick won't be able to reach to his head.

What's your opinion on this?

[LivingArt]

My finishing strategy is the same as my opening strategy. win. I don't hit lighter, or aim for less painful areas when the fight starts.

[Lee Chiang Po]

I would recommend you stay off the head. It can end with your getting a great deal of unwanted attention.
Taking someone down should be avoided unless you do it while remaining standing, and unless you intend to break an arm or wrist for the guy, I would not mess with the arm bar and such. You place yourself in un necessary danger like that. The only way I would throw someone like that would be a simple takedown by kicking the back of the knee when possible. There are a lot of throws or sweeps that can be used that will not place you in danger, but I would avoid bodily contact.

[Lee Chiang Po]

I would recommend you stay off the head. It can end with your getting a great deal of unwanted attention.
Taking someone down should be avoided unless you do it while remaining standing, and unless you intend to break an arm or wrist for the guy, I would not mess with the arm bar and such. You place yourself in un necessary danger like that. The only way I would throw someone like that would be a simple takedown by kicking the back of the knee when possible. There are a lot of throws or sweeps that can be used that will not place you in danger, but I would avoid bodily contact.

[YouKnowWho]

What do you mean

- stay off the head,
- unwanted attention, and
- avoid body contact?

We are talking abou "finish" here that your opponent will no longer be able to harm you.

[Robinhood]

Poke him in the eyes, or hit him in the nuts is the most efficient way, or are you guys talking about "technical brawling" ?


Cheers

[ginosifu]

In all self defense I teach, you should immoblize your opponent you by taking them down. In this situation I placed my knee to his head (all your body weight should lean on his head) and applied an arm bar to his elbow (not visible).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnxnCqJ6Rmk&list=UUzOkq8YoBXFA2_KV3eqK2TA&index=7&feature=plcp

I am not saying that every situation should go to the ground, but if you can not get your opponent to flee or for your self to flee, then you must immoblize him. Immoblizing him can difuse the situation temporarily and or end it right then and there.

ginosifu

[MightyB]

What's your opinion on this?

Sometimes you scare me :eek:

but I see where you're going with this. I guess you have to think about ending the fight. I'd say in one on one, the BJJers and Judo guys have the best legal option. Classic RNC taken all the way to the pass out.

If it's a situation that requires an ending action... TCMA should look to extreme chin na. Break a limb - heck - break the guy's fingers and that should be enough.

[RenDaHai]

I suppose the most classic set up and finish in SongShan Shaolin would be the technique 'Hai Di Lou Yue' (Fish the moon out of the sea). It typically involves feinting to the eyes, strike the groin, then because after being hit in the groin most people bow their head and drop their guard at least slightly, you grab their hair/head and push it down and thump them on the back of the head. (Jingang Dao Dui, Guardian pounds a morter).

100 variations of this combo appear. strike to eyes, strike groin, strike back of head as they bend over. Its simple and fast. Sometimes a kick to the groin, more often though a strike with the fingers is enough and easier to get in, harder to see coming.

The important thing here is the overall strategy of the fight. In a lot of Shaolin technique sets, the entire strategy is to capture the head. Every move is a way to set up the opportunity to capture the head. Once you have it, their are many ways to wrench it, strike it or lock it.

However...

We do have 3 WuDe Rules in Shaolin, the second rule is 'Bu neng da dao ren'. Don't hit someone who has fallen down. This is partly Wude and morally correct. However it is also to do with safety. If you are alone kicking someone who is down, it is quite possible for you to become entangled and they take you down with them, at which point you have lost the advantage you had and left yourself in a very dangerous position.

[-N-]

Unleass you can knock or kick your opponent down and hurt your opponent badly, your opponent may still come back at you and the fight is not over yet. If you take your opponent down, you can finish him on the ground with arm bar, leg bar, choke, ... you can also finish him with "follow on striking".

Stab him in the neck with a knife.

[MightyB]

point over his shoulder while exclaiming "Holy Crap! Would you Look at That!!!"

and then run like a MOFO when he steals a glance back to see what you're talking about.

[YouKnowWho]

Sometimes you scare me :eek:

In what way? :confused:

Every throw will have a "follow on strike" associate with it. That's how a Chinese wrestler trains his throw. It's also part of the ranking test requirement. This is the major difference between "sport" and "combat".

Example 1 - kick your opponent's head when he is down:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pt_LA_dXHFQ&feature=youtu.be

Example 2 - drop knee on your opponent's chest when he is down:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDoYqsNpFqs

[MightyB]

In what way? :confused:



- kick your opponent's head when he is down (IMO, this is the most effective finish move. A friend of mine his son was killed by this).
- smash the back of your opponent's head to the ground (skull cracking).
- drop your opponent's head directly to the ground (air plane crashing).
- drop your knee on your opponent's chest (ribs breaking).
- drop your knee into your opponent's groin (nuts smashing).
- drop your elbow on your opponent's throat (wind pipe smashing).
- drop your elbow on your opponent's heart (heart breaking).
- ...

..........

[TaichiMantis]

I have a hit and run strategy...;)

[Shaolin]

There is no answer to this question. There are so many combinations of technique and tactics one can use to "finish" an opponent. The possibilities are endless. And there is no such thing as "the best way", it's all opinionated. For me, the best way to finish an opponent is not to get attacked by him/her in the first place. Shi Su Xi used to teach his students that one should be so good at their martial arts they never half to use it.

[mickey]

Greetings,

I think the question is whether it is a good thing to train finishing techniques. Yes, it is. In MMA, those bars become breaks, the submissions become strangulations. It simply comes down to the mindset of the individual in training. The problem with teaching people how to "go there" has more to do with the law. If you took the time to finish off your opponent, you had time to get away. xxx years, no parole. So what if you are a good guy with no priors. Wait, you are a white belt? That sounds like a MASTER to me.


mickey

[TaichiMantis]

There is no answer to this question. There are so many combinations of technique and tactics one can use to "finish" an opponent. The possibilities are endless. And there is no such thing as "the best way", it's all opinionated. For me, the best way to finish an opponent is not to get attacked by him/her in the first place. Shi Su Xi used to teach his students that one should be so good at their martial arts they never half to use it.

What he said...

[YouKnowWho]

Shi Su Xi used to teach his students that one should be so good at their martial arts they never half to use it.
We buy fire insurance but we hope our houses will never be burn down. Why do you train your "iron palm"? You hope your hand will have "killing power". You may train your "iron palm" all your life and you may never have to use it. Why do we want to spend time in front of a heavy bag? We hope that our punch will be strong enough to knock our opponent down (finish move).

It's better to develop few dependable finish moves than to be able to do everything that we may not be all good at. In TCMA, it's called "door guarding skill". A BJJ guy may be good in arm bar but may not be good in leg bar or choke. That's OK. We only need 1 finish move at anytime.

[Robinhood]

We buy fire insurance but we hope our houses will never be burn down. Why do you train your "iron palm"? You hope your hand will have "killing power". You may train your "iron palm" all your life and you may never have to use it. Why do we want to spend time in front of a heavy bag? We hope that our punch will be strong enough to knock our opponent down (finish move).

It's better to develop few dependable finish moves than to be able to do everything that we may not be all good at. In TCMA, it's called "door guarding skill". A BJJ guy may be good in arm bar but may not be good in leg bar or choke. That's OK. We only need 1 finish move at anytime.

We don't have a choice for most insurances, it is legal extortion and mandated by most laws so you have no choice. You will usually never get back what you paid in.



Cheers

[Robinhood]

What do you mean

- stay off the head,
- unwanted attention, and
- avoid body contact?

We are talking abou "finish" here that your opponent will no longer be able to harm you.

I think you watch to many kung fu movies.



Cheers

[YouKnowWho]

I think you watch to many kung fu movies.



Cheers

What does "watching movie" have to do with the questions that I asked? :confused:

[bawang]

i like to finish by making hand party, then clean with bounty paper towel. Bounty paper towels and napkins clean up the smallest spills and the biggest messes. Get your home Bounty Clean with absorbent Bounty Paper Towels!

[SteveLau]

Youknowwho,

All the moves you mentioned in your post are lethal. If killing the opponent is not your goal of finish the fight, disable his limbs is a good strategy. We can use strike or joint dislocate techniques in carrying it out.



Yours truly,

KC
Hong Kong

[YouKnowWho]

If killing the opponent is not your goal of finish the fight, ...
I think to use sword to cut off someone's head (draw blood) is more violent than to smash someone's head to the ground (don't draw blood). :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3CErlfXJsA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJvITkMSOB4

[YouKnowWho]

Stab him in the neck with a knife.
It's included.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5HaTULgf3g

[MightyB]

Greetings,

I think the question is whether it is a good thing to train finishing techniques. Yes, it is. In MMA, those bars become breaks, the submissions become strangulations. It simply comes down to the mindset of the individual in training. The problem with teaching people how to "go there" has more to do with the law. If you took the time to finish off your opponent, you had time to get away. xxx years, no parole. So what if you are a good guy with no priors. Wait, you are a white belt? That sounds like a MASTER to me.


mickey

Quoted for truth. The fact is you're walking a thin and dangerous line legally as soon as you start training "finishing" moves unless you get a concealed and carry permit and move to Florida.

In Florida - you can start fight, get your arse handed to you, and then shoot the guy in retaliation and all's good.

[David Jamieson]

- Leave the scene

On the street, once the guy is down or incapacitated, it's time to leave the scene.

[SPJ]

if you are in any venue of competition

you define the win and lose

by points

by KO

by throw

by leaving the platform or lei tai

--

then you come up with strategy to win under the rule sets specified.

if you are in a street fight

you may use tool or defensive weapon

or you may always out run the attackers

you dodge and cover

you run

when you are safe, and you win

---

[YouKnowWho]

- Leave the scene...

When you teach a course for FBI, CIA, secret service, anti-terrorism group, ... "leave the scene" won't be one of your options. That was why the "Combat" SC system was evolved with "follow on striking" when David C. K. Lin taught Sionics, a prestigious Georgia-based Anti-terrorism school back in 1980.

You can't just tell a president's bodyguard to "leave the scene" when the president is under attacked. :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

Head stomping ( along with GnP) was very popular in the old Vale Tudo ( the GnP still is of course but head stomping has been ruled out).
Personally, if HE is down and STILL a threat, I would go for the low line kick, perhaps stomp.
There are a few "coup de grace" that I have picked up over the years, but not sure if I will use them ( I certainly hope not).

[YouKnowWho]

you define the win and lose by throw ...
When David C. K. Lin used "sport" mindset to teach his class in Sionics back in 1980, he found out that won't work for his audience, he had to change it. Talking about Wude won't help either.

[YouKnowWho]

Head stomping ( along with GnP) was very popular in the old Vale Tudo ( the GnP still is of course but head stomping has been ruled out).
Personally, if HE is down and STILL a threat, I would go for the low line kick, perhaps stomp.
There are a few "coup de grace" that I have picked up over the years, but not sure if I will use them ( I certainly hope not).
If you are 007 and have liense to kill that will be a different story.

There are many different levels of combat:

- tournament sport,
- friendly challenge,
- unfriendly challenge,
- street fight,
- kill.

[sanjuro_ronin]

If you are 007 and have license to kill that will be a different story.

I'm not and never will be, BUT I know what you mean.
Being former military I know the mindset and those spec ops and black ops guys even more so.

[-N-]

It's included.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5HaTULgf3g


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJvITkMSOB4


In the north part of China, the dagger is hidden in your boots. After you have taken your opponent down, you pull it out of your boots and then stab into your opponent's heart.

Dagger in the ancient time was not used for standup fighting. It was too short compare to spear, staff, knife, and sword. You just don't pull your dagger out when your opponent's spear head is right in front of your chest. Chinese dagger was mainly used for "ground game". It was integrated perfectly with the Chinese throwing art.

The day that people no longer use spear, staff, ... the day that people start to hold dagger like to hold a sword.

If we are talking about finish, then avoid etc. is not an option.

In that case, there's nothing wrong with the traditional solution.

So your dog kept bringing you the knife, but you didn't use it :D

[David Jamieson]

When you teach a course for FBI, CIA, secret service, anti-terrorism group, ... "leave the scene" won't be one of your options. That was why the "Combat" SC system was evolved with "follow on striking" when David C. K. Lin taught Sionics, a prestigious Georgia-based Anti-terrorism school back in 1980.

You can't just tell a president's bodyguard to "leave the scene" when the president is under attacked. :D

If you are working at that level, a few wrist locks and a punch upside the head isn't exactly valuable information. You want to overwhelm, constrain and retain. This is 2012, so, choke outs, tazers, batons and even guns are what is required when we are talking about those organizations.

They are far better equipped on pretty much every level compared to an average guy. Who if skilled and comes to the point where he has made his attacker quiesce then, "leave the scene" is the way to go. I don't think teaching boxing or wrestling or take down skills is relevant to those organizations if they have all the equipment they need to incapacitate someone without ever touching them physically. What needs to be taught to these guys is how to be quickly aware of the surroundings and what's in it. How to get your weapon out calmly without fumbling. How to use your weapon safely, how to extract and use your weapon in a seconds count scenario or several of these and so on.

come alongs and pain compliance are not very useful on drugged out folks, but you can shut off their nervous system temporarily with a couple of tazes.

[sanjuro_ronin]

One guy I know that works for CSIS loves his "force multipliers".
He got some custom designed "knuckles" and man do those babies work.

[SPJ]

there are styles that excel in how to recover from ends or lost fights

such as secret gate mantis,

once you know and practice your end moves.

but remember also practice how to recover from your finish or end moves.

such is the nature of fighting. shield vs spear

or mao and dun.

:cool: