Chi-sao

[k gledhill]

A clip of some chi-sao work CLIP (http://youtu.be/fzPZepBCFew)

[Vajramusti]

A clip of some chi-sao work CLIP (http://youtu.be/fzPZepBCFew)
---------------------------------------

Why the rocking and pushing?

joy chaudhuri

[LFJ]

A clip of some chi-sao work CLIP (http://youtu.be/fzPZepBCFew)

Taan-bong-jam, taan-bong-jam, taan-bong-jam... I know somebody's favorite. :p

[LoneTiger108]

A clip of some chi-sao work CLIP (http://youtu.be/fzPZepBCFew)

As much as I appreciate good PBWSL stuff, which this is, I can not openly lie here and say that's good chisau because from what I am looking at there was little chisau in the drill as it appears to be (what I call) looksau / rotating arm.

Rotating your kiusau on the forearms as you are doing, with the sunken chest and forward intent, is all looksau basics. Being within the contact range all the time has specific purposes too which you are demonstrating skillfully. It's just our language is offkey. The advancing sets you are teaching are specifically PBs /WSLs I would imagine as this is where we have more physical differences.

FWIW This specific drill was a sepciality my Sigung too. There is even footage of him practising like this, and taking it further, step by step into a full fluid interactive drill. We also demonstrated this specific idea at the weekend and the last time we did that (1997) a very well known Master asked my Sifu "what is that?!!" After a small conversation in cantonese the penny dropped ;)

Like I said, it's great to see but I ask 'where does this go next?'

[Vajramusti]

Same guys different day, jut sao focus....CLIP (http://youtu.be/oIsYkeqcHpg)
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Far different from the chi sao that I do.
That vid appears to show a considerable lack of structure
and balance. BTW good structure does NOT imply stiffness.
The two guys don't appear to be too stiff but there is hardly any structure or balance.
Before any one gets there dander up, I respect WSL.
I will leave it at that.

joy chaudhuri

[LoneTiger108]

That vid appears to show a considerable lack of structure and balance. BTW good structure does NOT imply stiffness.
The two guys don't appear to be too stiff but there is hardly any structure or balance.

Interesting comments Joy, seeing as the methods shown are very very common within the WSL lineage. I think the structure/balance inconsistency may be due to the 'rushed nature' of some of the advances, as the stepping seems a little basic too.

Basic drills tend to create these bad habits if they are trained for too long without progression. Hence, why I ask where they go from here?

[LoneTiger108]

Mind you, I still appreciate anyone sharing what they do like this... it's what we should all be doing to be honest.

More of a 'visual forum' would be much cooler :)

[k gledhill]

As much as I appreciate good PBWSL stuff, which this is, I can not openly lie here and say that's good chisau because from what I am looking at there was little chisau in the drill as it appears to be (what I call) looksau / rotating arm.

Rotating your kiusau on the forearms as you are doing, with the sunken chest and forward intent, is all looksau basics. Being within the contact range all the time has specific purposes too which you are demonstrating skillfully. It's just our language is offkey. The advancing sets you are teaching are specifically PBs /WSLs I would imagine as this is where we have more physical differences.

FWIW This specific drill was a sepciality my Sigung too. There is even footage of him practising like this, and taking it further, step by step into a full fluid interactive drill. We also demonstrated this specific idea at the weekend and the last time we did that (1997) a very well known Master asked my Sifu "what is that?!!" After a small conversation in cantonese the penny dropped ;)

Like I said, it's great to see but I ask 'where does this go next?'


---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Far different from the chi sao that I do.
That vid appears to show a considerable lack of structure
and balance. BTW good structure does NOT imply stiffness.
The two guys don't appear to be too stiff but there is hardly any structure or balance.
Before any one gets there dander up, I respect WSL.
I will leave it at that.

joy chaudhuri


Another ..... CLIP (http://youtu.be/5rnqbHlBbt8)

[LoneTiger108]

Another ..... CLIP (http://youtu.be/5rnqbHlBbt8)

Ah! A little more fluid and advanced which is good :)

Gworsau exchanges like shown are filled with individual personality, but these still look very like PB and WSL to me. Still good though as this is what I tend to see everywhere, in every lineage, when it gets down to more free sparring.

It's like the methods of Wing Chun are being used, but with the personality of an ancestor! ;) Still better than chatting all day though...

[k gledhill]

Exchanging using the skills, no kicks CLIP (http://youtu.be/duWnaCQW51g)

[LoneTiger108]

Exchanging using the skills, no kicks CLIP (http://youtu.be/duWnaCQW51g)

One BIG criticism with this particular clip (sorry dude!) but even my own kids would deck this guy with their shadowless kick to the nuts lol! So good job there are no kicks allowed here.

Again remember what I said... some of these drills can create bad habits ;)

[Vajramusti]

Exchanging using the skills, no kicks CLIP (http://youtu.be/duWnaCQW51g)
----------------------------------------
good-grief.

joy

[sanjuro_ronin]

I'm gonna state something that will probably come out the wrong way, LOL!
I have a "friend" that does WC, he is a teacher.
He has trained guys that have fought and been sucessful in boxing, MT and MMA.
He is kind of a "rebel" and is on the "outs" with the WC "community" here because of his "fight first" mentality.
He believes that if you can't fight with your WC VS any and all other systems, then take up taiji (:D).
I have personally seen a couple of his guys going against MMA guys in training and they do very well.
Why do I mention this?
Here comes the controversy:
One of the first things he did when he started training guys to deal with other systems and such was to STOP CHI SAO, at least how it is typically done.
He said all it did was create some pretty bad habits that get you "killed in a real fight vs a non-wc fighter".
When I asked about those that DO chi sao and were know to be good fighters he said that was a case of "in-spite of" not "because of".

After seeing most chi sao videos and most chi sao, I think he is probably right.

[Wayfaring]

The one dude is a poster child for WCK chi sau.

Lack of shirt says "look at my muscles".

Glasses on says "but I understand theory too". Obviously he is not too concerned with getting punched in the face.

;)

[k gledhill]

The one dude is a poster child for WCK chi sau.

Lack of shirt says "look at my muscles".

Glasses on says "but I understand theory too". Obviously he is not too concerned with getting punched in the face.

;)

What do you think of his haircut ? Is that okay ....?

[k gledhill]

I'm gonna state something that will probably come out the wrong way, LOL!
I have a "friend" that does WC, he is a teacher.
He has trained guys that have fought and been sucessful in boxing, MT and MMA.
He is kind of a "rebel" and is on the "outs" with the WC "community" here because of his "fight first" mentality.
He believes that if you can't fight with your WC VS any and all other systems, then take up taiji (:D).
I have personally seen a couple of his guys going against MMA guys in training and they do very well.
Why do I mention this?
Here comes the controversy:
One of the first things he did when he started training guys to deal with other systems and such was to STOP CHI SAO, at least how it is typically done.
He said all it did was create some pretty bad habits that get you "killed in a real fight vs a non-wc fighter".
When I asked about those that DO chi sao and were know to be good fighters he said that was a case of "in-spite of" not "because of".

After seeing most chi sao videos and most chi sao, I think he is probably right.

Gee, :rolleyes: ....amazing insight :o

[k gledhill]

Taan-bong-jam, taan-bong-jam, taan-bong-jam... I know somebody's favorite. :p

aka , to us, hit defend hit, hit defend hit....:D

[Vajramusti]

I'm gonna state something that will probably come out the wrong way, LOL!
I have a "friend" that does WC, he is a teacher.
He has trained guys that have fought and been sucessful in boxing, MT and MMA.
He is kind of a "rebel" and is on the "outs" with the WC "community" here because of his "fight first" mentality.
He believes that if you can't fight with your WC VS any and all other systems, then take up taiji (:D).
I have personally seen a couple of his guys going against MMA guys in training and they do very well.
Why do I mention this?
Here comes the controversy:
One of the first things he did when he started training guys to deal with other systems and such was to STOP CHI SAO, at least how it is typically done.
He said all it did was create some pretty bad habits that get you "killed in a real fight vs a non-wc fighter".
When I asked about those that DO chi sao and were know to be good fighters he said that was a case of "in-spite of" not "because of".

After seeing most chi sao videos and most chi sao, I think he is probably right.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Sanjuro- I don't know your friend... but it does not matter. All kinds of folks have all kinds of opinions. Once again- wing chun is NOT the only way to fight. Fighting is fighting -but it's nota single concept- so there are different approaches to something called fighting which has various outcomes.. But if you are going to do wing chun- good chi sao is an important component of good wing chun. The recent chi sao vids on this forum are not imo good examples of wing chun. I respect WSL. Gary Lam, David P and WSL's ex brother in law...WSL was a good fighter... but the spreading of WSL wing chun is quite uneven.
Lot of it is bad imitation- xerox of xerox of a xerox- with unbalanced pushing and shoving replacing the insufficiency of understanding principles and concepts. Again- wing chun has spread too fast and has spread unevenly.But- Without chi sao just fighting does not result in understanding wing chun.

Speaking only for myself.

joy chaudhuri

[k gledhill]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Sanjuro- I don't know your friend... but it does not matter. All kinds of folks have all kinds of opinions. Once again- wing chun is NOT the only way to fight. Fighting is fighting -but it's nota single concept- so there are different approaches to something called fighting which has various outcomes.. But if you are going to do wing chun- good chi sao is an important component of good wing chun. The recent chi sao vids on this forum are not imo good examples of wing chun. I respect WSL. Gary Lam, David P and WSL's ex brother in law...WSL was a good fighter... but the spreading of WSL wing chun is quite uneven.
Lot of it is bad imitation- xerox of xerox of a xerox- with unbalanced pushing and shoving replacing the insufficiency of understanding principles and concepts. Again- wing chun has spread too fast and has spread unevenly.But- Without chi sao just fighting does not result in understanding wing chun.

Speaking only for myself.

joy chaudhuri

lmao at Joy ...thanks for making us all feel easy now we know YOU are doing it the right way :rolleyes:

[k gledhill]

Just clips of drills....they contain errors, we drill to fix them. When you are perfect you are dead and buried, until then :D TRAIN HARD ~ !

[Wayfaring]

What do you think of his haircut ? Is that okay ....?

Whatever k. The point was he looks like an idiot training like that, not personal grooming preferences.

To me it illustrates the whole poser frame of chi sau. Look like a stud with your shirt off, but don't need to take off your glasses or make any modifications for training fighting where normally you attempt to punch each other in the face.

LOL at that training mentality. BTW I know plenty of tough people with thick horn-rim glasses that take them off to spar. The only reason not to is that you're reasonably certain you're not going to get punched in the eye.

Poser. And who cares about his haircut.

[Wayfaring]

I'm gonna state something that will probably come out the wrong way, LOL!
I have a "friend" that does WC, he is a teacher.
He has trained guys that have fought and been sucessful in boxing, MT and MMA.
He is kind of a "rebel" and is on the "outs" with the WC "community" here because of his "fight first" mentality.
He believes that if you can't fight with your WC VS any and all other systems, then take up taiji (:D).
I have personally seen a couple of his guys going against MMA guys in training and they do very well.
Why do I mention this?
Here comes the controversy:
One of the first things he did when he started training guys to deal with other systems and such was to STOP CHI SAO, at least how it is typically done.
He said all it did was create some pretty bad habits that get you "killed in a real fight vs a non-wc fighter".
When I asked about those that DO chi sao and were know to be good fighters he said that was a case of "in-spite of" not "because of".

After seeing most chi sao videos and most chi sao, I think he is probably right.

For some more perspective on stuff like this, I have started to introduce a chi sau drill type of thing just playing around with some of the MMA fighters - pros and amateurs. Their first reaction is "what the f is this for?" as intuitively not one single one of them could pick up that it has a lot to do with fighting.

After some explanation they start to get the picture of controlling the opponent and seeing some value in close range striking and clinch work. Still it's not something one single fighter would choose to replace full live mma type sparring rounds with.

I more agree with your friend's mentality.

Now let's all strike a chi sau pose. :D:D:D

[Wayfaring]

Just clips of drills....they contain errors, we drill to fix them. When you are perfect you are dead and buried, until then :D TRAIN HARD ~ !

I'm kind of trying to point out some of the errors in approach. I mean take off the d@mn glasses, put in a mouthpiece, and stop pausing the strikes to the chest and head for photo ops.

TRAIN SMART and TRAIN HARD. Don't catch a TRAIN traveling in the wrong direction.

[Wayfaring]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Sanjuro- I don't know your friend... but it does not matter. All kinds of folks have all kinds of opinions. Once again- wing chun is NOT the only way to fight. Fighting is fighting -but it's nota single concept- so there are different approaches to something called fighting which has various outcomes.. But if you are going to do wing chun- good chi sao is an important component of good wing chun. The recent chi sao vids on this forum are not imo good examples of wing chun. I respect WSL. Gary Lam, David P and WSL's ex brother in law...WSL was a good fighter... but the spreading of WSL wing chun is quite uneven.
Lot of it is bad imitation- xerox of xerox of a xerox- with unbalanced pushing and shoving replacing the insufficiency of understanding principles and concepts. Again- wing chun has spread too fast and has spread unevenly.But- Without chi sao just fighting does not result in understanding wing chun.

Speaking only for myself.

joy chaudhuri

The point IMO not addressed in WCK is the translation of skills learned in chi sau to a realistic fighting environment. There are way too many "slick chi sau" WCK teachers that would get destroyed in realistic fighting as they never practice it. Their students never practice it.

"But if you are going to do wing chun- good chi sao is an important component of good wing chun."

In geometry there are 3 absolutes - point, line and plane. The rest of it is derived.

Here it sounds like the absolutes of WCK have nothing to do with fighting. Chi sau is an absolute. Why? It was originally intended as a training wheel on a bike by fighting WCK masters. It has been watered down and accepted as the be all end all of WCK. That can only happen when people don't fight.

[k gledhill]

Agree with wayfaring here, chi-sao is NOT a war zone, sparring is not done in a drill to develop skills to fight with...we spar to test the skills, then go back to chi-sao modules to work them out. Then back to sparring randomly....

Chi-sao, to the vast majority, is now a place to spar. :o

[Wayfaring]

I'm picking on the video guys a bit. For all I know those guys spar full out and don't wear glasses and are just playing around drilling in front of a camera.

[free2flow]

I'm picking on the video guys a bit. For all I know those guys spar full out and don't wear glasses and are just playing around drilling in front of a camera.
For all we know they're actually MMA fighters.....:D

[duende]

Whatever k. The point was he looks like an idiot training like that, not personal grooming preferences.

To me it illustrates the whole poser frame of chi sau. Look like a stud with your shirt off, but don't need to take off your glasses or make any modifications for training fighting where normally you attempt to punch each other in the face.

LOL at that training mentality. BTW I know plenty of tough people with thick horn-rim glasses that take them off to spar. The only reason not to is that you're reasonably certain you're not going to get punched in the eye.

Poser. And who cares about his haircut.

A wake-up call is definitely needed. Glasses get broken first thing against real skill challenges. Even if the strikes are controlled.

[sanjuro_ronin]

A wake-up call is definitely needed. Glasses get broken first thing against real skill challenges. Even if the strikes are controlled.

For a time we tired using goggles when training finger strikes to the eyes.
All the happened was sprained fingers and scratched faces.
It was like we got into a fight at the local brothel !
:D

[k gledhill]

I'm picking on the video guys a bit. For all I know those guys spar full out and don't wear glasses and are just playing around drilling in front of a camera.


For a time we tired using goggles when training finger strikes to the eyes.
All the happened was sprained fingers and scratched faces.
It was like we got into a fight at the local brothel !
:D

We used to wear catcher style headgear with wire mesh tie across the eye area. Using eye jabs .

[Eric_H]

Please may they soon learn to stand up straight.

WC doesn't need a back curl, it's counter to good centerline. Naturally happens as you get older, but doesn't have to if you keep after it.

[k gledhill]

Please may they soon learn to stand up straight.

WC doesn't need a back curl, it's counter to good centerline. Naturally happens as you get older, but doesn't have to if you keep after it.

Result of inward elbows....

[Happy Tiger]

Who's students are these?

[Eric_H]

Result of inward elbows....

Not going to say it doesn't contribute, but you can keep an upright back and have your elbows in.

[wingchunIan]

Interesting comments Joy, seeing as the methods shown are very very common within the WSL lineage. I think the structure/balance inconsistency may be due to the 'rushed nature' of some of the advances, as the stepping seems a little basic too.

Basic drills tend to create these bad habits if they are trained for too long without progression. Hence, why I ask where they go from here?

Hi Spencer, I disagree with you regarding the practice of basic drills (someone else posted something similar a while ago about wall bag practice). Without any reference to the clip, any basic drill that develops bad habits is a poor drill and should be discarded full stop. If a drill teaches or develops an attribute then that attribute should be valid and prolonged practice should simply make it sharper and better. I frequently enjoy going back over the most basic of drills. In Wing Chun as with most martial arts training IMHO is cyclic, folks strive to learn the hidden secrets and the advanced techniques and drills, always wanting more, moving on, leaving the basics behind. Normally in Japanese and Korean styles the enlightenment comes a few years after the first black belt and folks either leave dishillousioned or else realise that the true keys to any art are the very basics that they had been in such a rush to leave behind and go back and train them again but from an elightened position. IME this is a never ending circle in that the longer you train the more enlightened you become and the more the basic drills and techniques grow in importance.

[wingchunIan]

Not going to say it doesn't contribute, but you can keep an upright back and have your elbows in.

Totally agree, as someone who is taller than most of the folks I trained with coming through SNT etc I developed a tendancy to hunch and stoop the shoulders. First time in HK the first thing they all picked up on was my posture and I was quickly corrected. Standing straight without rounding the back helped my shoulders to relax immensely and freed up my posture, not to mention from an application angle it pulled my head further out of range and suddenly my reach was actually an advantage again.

[LoneTiger108]

Hi Spencer, I disagree with you regarding the practice of basic drills (someone else posted something similar a while ago about wall bag practice). Without any reference to the clip, any basic drill that develops bad habits is a poor drill and should be discarded full stop. If a drill teaches or develops an attribute then that attribute should be valid and prolonged practice should simply make it sharper and better.

You make a very good point Ian, but I was strictly talking about the later clip creating bad habits in their mobility which wouldn't really be an issue if there had been some further development of the drill and possibly more attention to their stepping and placement.

I still drill Tanda to this day and I know it has big benefits :) So I agree totally that we carry our basics with us forever. Wouldn't be Wing Chun otherwise IMHO ;)

[Frost]

It amazes me that Kevin posts all these clips (not one of which includes sparring or hard contact) but then says its just a drilling stage where we perfect what we get wrong in sparring…if this is the case surely there should be just as many clips of full on sparring as there are of the drilling stage…..
Oh and LMAO at Wayfaring I was going to comment on the whole glasses and shirt thing thing but didn’t want Kev to delete the thread like he normally does when people don’t go wow and start PB nutriding

[GlennR]

It amazes me that Kevin posts all these clips (not one of which includes sparring or hard contact) but then says its just a drilling stage where we perfect what we get wrong in sparring…if this is the case surely there should be just as many clips of full on sparring as there are of the drilling stage…..

I have to admit, ive always wondered why the video camera doesnt seem to be available when the sparring happens...... maybe it has a chi-sao only mode set to on ;)


Oh and LMAO at Wayfaring I was going to comment on the whole glasses and shirt thing thing but didn’t want Kev to delete the thread like he normally does when people don’t go wow and start PB nutriding


Yeh, the whole shirt thing of is a bit odd

[Frost]

I have to admit, ive always wondered why the video camera doesnt seem to be available when the sparring happens...... maybe it has a chi-sao only mode set to on ;)



Yeh, the whole shirt thing of is a bit odd

Ill be honest here, I don’t care if people don’t want to post clips of themselves sparring or training, but if you interested enough to post clip after clip after clip of chi-sao drilling and say its only part of your training and hit at heavy sparring being done …they why can’t you show that?
The shirt was funny, the glasses funnier lol as someone with really bad eyesight I know first hand if any type of head contact is going to be made you put your contacts in, take them off (it’s a sensitivity drill so you don’t really need them right?) or you put the basketball style special shock glasses on , you only wear your normal glasses if you know no contact is going to be made, and what drill worth its salt doesn’t have some form of contact threatened?

[CFT]

I have genuinely forgotten I have had glasses on when doing chi sau. But 'accidents do happen', so they came off when I realised.

[Sihing73]

Okay guys, I have undeleted the thread.

All I ask is that you try to keep on topic regarding Chi Sau. .//

If you don't I will post a pic of me with no shirt on and you don't want that...................................trust me. :D

[Eric_H]

Totally agree, as someone who is taller than most of the folks I trained with coming through SNT etc I developed a tendancy to hunch and stoop the shoulders. First time in HK the first thing they all picked up on was my posture and I was quickly corrected. Standing straight without rounding the back helped my shoulders to relax immensely and freed up my posture, not to mention from an application angle it pulled my head further out of range and suddenly my reach was actually an advantage again.

Tall guys unite! :D

I had a lot of the same stuff going on which I didn't really start to sort out until I started my internal training (bagua and especially wudang sword). Posture is everything in TCMA.

[Robinhood]

At least your having fun.



Cheers

[LFJ]

We can't feel the temperature in the room. It could have been hot. I didn't hear any A/C or fan going. And maybe the guy hasn't had his glasses knocked off yet, so hasn't realized it's not a good idea to wear them during chisau.

It's stupid to discuss these unknown things. Criticize their structure, principles and method here instead, and some useful conversation may arise, as has kind of been started.

[JPinAZ]

As I know, back should be straight and if you push your elbows exact to the center, your shoulders get tense... :cool:


I agree, back should be straight, and, there should be no issue getting your elbows in with an upright posture.


Master WSL did not do any back curl, when he practiced chi sao...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nvfCJHyui0

Jox, :)

Good point! But then I was always taught that I should do what the system teaches me, not what 'sifu does', so shouldn't matter ;)

[Happy Tiger]

Nice comparison of form. Did sigong Wong Shun Leung curve or lean?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnxFzCsUy7k

[imperialtaichi]

Chi Sau is an important part of training, it develops many attributes useful in fighting, but it does not cover every aspect of fighting such as bridging, intercepting, range judgement etc. Relying on Chi Sau alone in training to fight is impractical.

Btw, strictly speaking in KL22 we don't have Chi Sau, but other partner training exercises. But we do do Chi Sau so we can play with other WC guys.

[Vajramusti]

Chi Sau is an important part of training, it develops many attributes useful in fighting, but it does not cover every aspect of fighting such as bridging, intercepting, range judgement etc. Relying on Chi Sau alone in training to fight is impractical.

Btw, strictly speaking in KL22 we don't have Chi Sau, but other partner training exercises. But we do do Chi Sau so we can play with other WC guys.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
I beg to differ in part. The chi sao that I/we do does include bridging, intercepting, range judgement etc.
among other things. Of course it is not fighting.

joy chaudhuri

[LoneTiger108]

Btw, strictly speaking in KL22 we don't have Chi Sau, but other partner training exercises. But we do do Chi Sau so we can play with other WC guys.

One of the most interesting things I have read here in a while.

From my limited experience of Wing Chun from Kulo and Fatshan they both have various interactive drills that are similar to what we refer to as Chisau in the West, but they will actually have 'names' for these exercises. This is something I have always stressed sinced being on these forums, the term Chisau is a western 'adoption' that covers an array of interactive platforms. I call these platforms 'Doi Lien' or 'Doi Chat'. One is smooth and soft, the other hard and disruptive.

Personally I have no time to 'play' chisau because that is not what it is for. I wouldn't entertain learning something just to 'fit-in' with others.

[Vajramusti]

One of the most interesting things I have read here in a while.

From my limited experience of Wing Chun from Kulo and Fatshan they both have various interactive drills that are similar to what we refer to as Chisau in the West, but they will actually have 'names' for these exercises. This is something I have always stressed sinced being on these forums, the term Chisau is a western 'adoption' that covers an array of interactive platforms. I call these platforms 'Doi Lien' or 'Doi Chat'. One is smooth and soft, the other hard and disruptive.

Personally I have no time to 'play' chisau because that is not what it is for. I wouldn't entertain learning something just to 'fit-in' with others.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am not debating -just sharing a POV. Ip Man's chi sao when taught well is far more complete than
Chan Wah Sun's family chi sao and Kulo wing chun. Variations of single, double, lop sao, with footwork, stepping, lat sao, man sao, gor sao- all fitting into each other trains a wide set of attributes in some IM lineages including mine..
I accept the view that Ip man got addittional training- most likely from Leung Bik.Kulo emerged from the few villagers leung Jan briefly taught when he returned to Kulo a couple of years before he died.
Of course good people can make Fatshan wc and kulo wc work for them The wc style has it's diversities. One builds on what is available.

joy chaudhuri

[Happy Tiger]

One of the most interesting things I have read here in a while.

From my limited experience of Wing Chun from Kulo and Fatshan they both have various interactive drills that are similar to what we refer to as Chisau in the West, but they will actually have 'names' for these exercises. This is something I have always stressed sinced being on these forums, the term Chisau is a western 'adoption' that covers an array of interactive platforms. I call these platforms 'Doi Lien' or 'Doi Chat'. One is smooth and soft, the other hard and disruptive.

Personally I have no time to 'play' chisau because that is not what it is for. I wouldn't entertain learning something just to 'fit-in' with others.
Although I wouldn't waste too much of my time on something pointless, I must admit I do like the social aspects of chi sau. It is a communication shared by most in VT that brings us together,reveals much about some one..... in flavor, skill, potential skill and personality. It's very interesting that K22 doesn't traditionaly have chi sau as we typically know it. I'll take chi sau over chess most days!:cool: Doi Lien and Doi Chat, good identifying terms.

[JPinAZ]

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I beg to differ in part. The chi sao that I/we do does include bridging, intercepting, range judgement etc.
among other things. Of course it is not fighting.

joy chaudhuri

If 'chi sau' trains things like bridging, intercetping, understanding range then it is all about fighting! What part of those things are not fighting?

[sanjuro_ronin]

If 'chi sau' trains things like bridging, intercetping, understanding range then it is all about fighting! What part of those things are not fighting?

Because you are not actually fighting?
You know, the other guy trying to knock your block off and you know it and as such you are under real pressure not to be skull humped. That kind of fighting.

[Vajramusti]

Because you are not actually fighting?
You know, the other guy trying to knock your block off and you know it and as such you are under real pressure not to be skull humped. That kind of fighting.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yup

joy chaudhuri

[Eric_H]

you are under real pressure not to be skull humped

That sounds less like fighting and more like a porno shoot gone horribly wrong. ;)

[desertwingchun2]

From my experience, since learning WC (which included my Sihings and I playing an abundant amount of Chi Sao) I have had a few "chances" to get into a fight. This is real deal East LA street fighting I am talking about.

The thing I found is once I engaged with these guys and controlled their movements (one thing Chi Sao taught me) there was no fight left in these guys. So in effect Chi Sao made me a better fighter in that like my man Bruce, I was fighting without really fighting.
Which is way different than before when it was a free for all and you win some / lose some. Winning some is way better!!

Not sure where this falls into the discussion, just my $.02

DavidE

[JPinAZ]

Because you are not actually fighting?
You know, the other guy trying to knock your block off and you know it and as such you are under real pressure not to be skull humped. That kind of fighting.

Not really sure what that has to do with what I asked. I didn't ask if 'chi sau the game' was fighting, that would be silly - we both know it isn't. I asked if the things joy listed weren't part of fighting.

FWIW, chi sau the game/rolling platform, yeah, I agree, that's not fighting. But 'chi sau' overall is very much a part of fighting when it focuses on thing like (again) bridging, intercepting, range awaerness, and things like leverage control, positioning, space awareness, structure, etc. How can you work on these thing like joy puts it but then say it's not fighting?

But then, I was talking to joy anyway.. ;)

[YouKnowWho]

If 'chi sau' trains things like bridging, intercetping, understanding range then it is all about fighting! What part of those things are not fighting?

Trying to use your "glue" to stick on any moving object is very difficult. It's much easier to use "hook" to hook on a moving object to prevent it from moving away. Your "glue" may give your opponent a chance to "hook". You may not like to use hook but you cannot prevent your opponent from "hooking" on you. Your training should be able to deal with that.

Both WC Chi Shou and Taiji push hand are like you want to "touch" your girlfriend, but you don't want to "hug" her. There is something missing there. The moment that you have integrated Chi Shou with clinching, the moment that your training will be more complete.

Should this be part of your Chi Shou training too?

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/444/octopus.jpg/

[LoneTiger108]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am not debating -just sharing a POV. Ip Man's chi sao when taught well is far more complete than
Chan Wah Sun's family chi sao and Kulo wing chun. Variations of single, double, lop sao, with footwork, stepping, lat sao, man sao, gor sao- all fitting into each other trains a wide set of attributes in some IM lineages including mine..
I accept the view that Ip man got addittional training- most likely from Leung Bik.Kulo emerged from the few villagers leung Jan briefly taught when he returned to Kulo a couple of years before he died.
Of course good people can make Fatshan wc and kulo wc work for them The wc style has it's diversities. One builds on what is available.

joy chaudhuri

I actually agree with you here Joy as you make some pretty clear points with regards to Ip Mans WCK. And from what I have seen and researched, the later variations of interactive training do seem to be missing completely in the mainland unless the Sifu is lnked to Ip Man in some way, so it makes sense that the current platform from him is more 'refined' and purpose led for developing fighting attributes.

For me personally, this exchange type of interaction is more than 'Chisau' as it actually leads into gorsau and sansau. Then there is the poonsau and looksau too. All within good Ip Man Wing Chun and all with varying purposes fme.

But again, they are all either 'doilien' or 'doichat' interactive exercises and that is the language I feel is missing these days.

So we have:

Chisau
Poonsau
Looksau
Gorsau
Sansau

and I haven't mentioned Gaosau yet lol!!

[sanjuro_ronin]

That sounds less like fighting and more like a porno shoot gone horribly wrong. ;)

Tomato, tomahto :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

Not really sure what that has to do with what I asked. I didn't ask if 'chi sau the game' was fighting, that would be silly - we both know it isn't. I asked if the things joy listed weren't part of fighting.

FWIW, chi sau the game/rolling platform, yeah, I agree, that's not fighting. But 'chi sau' overall is very much a part of fighting when it focuses on thing like (again) bridging, intercepting, range awaerness, and things like leverage control, positioning, space awareness, structure, etc. How can you work on these thing like joy puts it but then say it's not fighting?

But then, I was talking to joy anyway.. ;)

Honestly and simply:
Fighting is fighting. Period.
Drills and sets are not fighting, nothing other than 2 (or more) people trying to beat each other up is fighting.
Sparring CAN be fighting, if it escaltes to that point.
There must be INTENT and there MUST be resistance between all involved.
One can be training ALL the attributes need and even those present in a fight but unless you are actually fighting, you are NOT fighting.

To make it more clear and using chi sao as an example:
Chi sao would be fighting IF there was intent to beat the ass of the other person.

Chi sao is a drill, one that develops certain attributes FOR fighting, BUT these attributes MUST still be applied and perfected BY FIGHTING.

[LoneTiger108]

One can be training ALL the attributes need and even those present in a fight but unless you are actually fighting, you are NOT fighting...

... Chi sao is a drill, one that develops certain attributes FOR fighting, BUT these attributes MUST still be applied and perfected BY FIGHTING.

Hang on! Are you now actually saying that Chisau or our interactive platform actually has a use and may in fact be 'beneficial' in an actual fight??!!

Granted, your view is to 'perfect' yourself in the fight but it sounds like you are supporting Chisau as a development tool which I thought you simply disregarded?

I'm in a bit of shock :eek:

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hang on! Are you now actually saying that Chisau or our interactive platform actually has a use and may in fact be 'beneficial' in an actual fight??!!

Granted, your view is to 'perfect' yourself in the fight but it sounds like you are supporting Chisau as a development tool which I thought you simply disregarded?

I'm in a bit of shock :eek:

Why shocked?
I have always viewed chi sao as a very productive DRILL.
Much like push hands and similar drills we find in Judo, wrestling and even boxing.
I just don't believe Chi Sao to be anything more than that.
I was actually VERY good at chi sao, did the whole blind folded bit, even one handed and such.
None of that changes that it is simply a tool AT BEST.

Let me put my issue with what people have made chi sao to be in this way:
Wing Chun is quite possibly the most popular TCMA (outside of taiji) and it is supposedly a fighting style BUT we see more demos and clips of Chi sao than we do of any ACTUAL fighting.

[Vajramusti]

BUT we see more demos and clips of Chi sao than we do of any ACTUAL fighting.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Most tournament matches are just that matches. Most fights where real hurt is intended and can and does occur are usually unfilmed.

joy chaudhuri

[sanjuro_ronin]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Most tournament matches are just that matches. Most fights where real hurt is intended and can and does occur are usually unfilmed.

joy chaudhuri

Phil and Alan have put up videos of their students fighting.
They are the minority.
But it isn't really about putting up videos of guys competing in full contact since it is not every schools "cup of tea".
The point is that for a fighting style with so many vidoes and even instructionals out there, there is a surprising lack of actual fighting in those videos.

[JPinAZ]

(I clipped the rest because you are just stating the obvious and it really had nothing to do with what I was saying to joy - which he's so conveniently ignored)


Chi sao is a drill, one that develops certain attributes FOR fighting, BUT these attributes MUST still be applied and perfected BY FIGHTING.

If by 'chi sau' you mean taan/bong/fook rolling platform drill, then I agree with you - it is just a drill. Again, this is stating the obvious.

In HFY, 'chi sau' is a lot more than just that rolling platform - the term 'chi sau' covers all aspects of brdiging from pre-contact to engagement, to leverage control, to bridge destruction, etc (a lot of which is covered by our Kiu Sau technologies as well as Chi Kiu, which both fall under the 'chi sau' umbrella) - all of which are directly applicable and tested in fighting. IMO the t/b/f rolling platform is only one piece of the overall pie and shouldn't be where people start. fights typically dont' start squared up with both hands engaged. They typically start at precontact, so imo that is where the training should start.

I would say ALL of it is directly applicable to FIGHTING and I agree that they MUST be applied and perfected BY FIGHTING. But my point was really geared toward what exactly 'chi sau' covers. Is it just a drill/game, or is it a lot more than that? Opinions obviously vary.

[sanjuro_ronin]

If 'chi sau' trains things like bridging, intercetping, understanding range then it is all about fighting! What part of those things are not fighting?

This is what you asked right?
You asked what part of those things are not fighting, correct?
Well NONE of them are fighting.
Attributes are NOT fighting, principles and techniques are not fighting.
drills and sets are not fighting.
A boxer doing hooks, jabs, crosses, uppercuts, bob n weaving, parrying and blocking is NOT fighting UNLESS he is doing them IN a fight.
Chi sao trains all those things WITHIN the chi sao platform which is NOT fighting.
Maybe I am misunderstanding your question...
You can train everything that is pertinent to fighting but unless you ARE fighting it ISN'T fighting.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Nobody offers you a bridge, nobody gives you their arms in a predetermined manner, no one stands square to you and no one does "chi sao" with you in a fight.
You must take what you develop in the safe environment of chi sao and apply it, refine it and use it in fighting.
I recall someone saying that chi sao is like riding a bike with training wheels.
I don't like that analogy and disagree with it, BUT I see the point.

[wingchunIan]

There are plenty of ways to practice entering, loads of drills and exercises. One of the purposes of chi sau is to let you train and practice what happens next. So you enter and your wonderful highly trained punch doesn't knock the guy out, or he has the audacity to move his head and make you miss, or heaven forbid actually tries to stop you from hitting him by covering, blocking or even hitting back. Relying on set sequences or hoping to just blast away is a low percentage option. Chi sau helps to develop sensitivity so that you can develop instinctive muscle memory based reactions in response to the way the opponent moves. The poon sau rolling platform is simply a place to start that is neutral, puts you into range and has movement, once you've started the exchange going back to rolling is totally optional, but the range can vary from double arm contact to single arm contact and back again in a totally unrehearsed fashion meaning that you learn to not only feel what is going on but also to control the distance.

[Vajramusti]

Chi sao is a drill, one that develops certain attributes FOR fighting, BUT these attributes MUST still be applied and perfected BY FIGHTING.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Sure.,, for a wc person. Others who dont have chi sao have to do other simulation.

Chi sao varies so much from what I can see- at times we are often not talking about the same thing.

Often what people call fighting is more simulation of fighting.
And round and round we go with different POVs in a chat forum.

joy chaudhuri

[sanjuro_ronin]

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Sure.,, for a wc person. Others who dont have chi sao have to do other simulation.

Chi sao varies so much from what I can see- at times we are often not talking about the same thing.

Often what people call fighting is more simulation of fighting.
And round and round we go with different POVs in a chat forum.

joy chaudhuri

Very true, sparring in of itself is NOT fighting thought I can escalte to such BUT what sparring does have above anything else that we do ( Dummy, sets, chi sao) as the element of "unpredictablity" and full resistence - we don't know what the opponent will do or how or when.
In order of highest importance in regards to what we can do to develop our fighting skills, I would say:
Fighting - Sparring - drills - chi sao- dummy- sets.

[sanjuro_ronin]

There are plenty of ways to practice entering, loads of drills and exercises. One of the purposes of chi sau is to let you train and practice what happens next. So you enter and your wonderful highly trained punch doesn't knock the guy out, or he has the audacity to move his head and make you miss, or heaven forbid actually tries to stop you from hitting him by covering, blocking or even hitting back. Relying on set sequences or hoping to just blast away is a low percentage option. Chi sau helps to develop sensitivity so that you can develop instinctive muscle memory based reactions in response to the way the opponent moves. The poon sau rolling platform is simply a place to start that is neutral, puts you into range and has movement, once you've started the exchange going back to rolling is totally optional, but the range can vary from double arm contact to single arm contact and back again in a totally unrehearsed fashion meaning that you learn to not only feel what is going on but also to control the distance.

I would have issues with only this part:

Chi sau helps to develop sensitivity so that you can develop instinctive muscle memory based reactions in response to the way the opponent moves.
Why?
Because it is responding in a way that NO opponent does move in terms of what you will face in a realistic fight.

[k gledhill]

Nobody offers you a bridge, nobody gives you their arms in a predetermined manner, no one stands square to you and no one does "chi sao" with you in a fight.
You must take what you develop in the safe environment of chi sao and apply it, refine it and use it in fighting.
I recall someone saying that chi sao is like riding a bike with training wheels.
I don't like that analogy and disagree with it, BUT I see the point.

Never a truer word was spoken...er, typed.

[Vajramusti]

I would have issues with only this part:

Why?
Because it is responding in a way that NO opponent does move in terms of what you will face in a realistic fight.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Depends on what kind of chi sao one is doing, what has been taught, learned and practiced and developed.

joy chaudhuri

PS. Chi sao can teach heightened awareness of motions of opponent(s) irrespective of their "style" and teaches you to protect against even sudden unexpected attacks from any direction.
In a "realistic fight" applied physics is there--power, acceleration, direction, timing , line, circles,
shifts, motion. Chi sao properly taught and learned is not the only possible preparation but is a great skill development tool...and teaches adjustments to real situations. IMO

joy chaudhuri

[wingchunIan]

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1171402]I would have issues with only this part:

Why?
Because it is responding in a way that NO opponent does move in terms of what you will face in a realistic fight.[/QUOTE

depends on what level you are doing chi sau and how you are taught. if you have been taught to feel for bong lap for example then I would agree but this would not fit with the way that I was taught chi sau (or the way I teach it) and IMHO is not how chi sau should be trained. If instead you are feeling for the opponent disengaging, gaps to the centre, force being applied to your arm /s either side to side, up / down or as a push or pull etc then you are dealing with exactly the way opponents move in a real fight. the main difference is that when chi saoing with a partner of a decent skill level the movements become very small and very fast and the changes of angles are very subtle. This serves to continually sharpen the skills and so whilst it doesn't look like the kind of interaction you would get in a real encounter it is exactly the same. I have had several "real" experiences where after the intial close (where one or both of you goes for it and the distance closes rapidly) its all gone very scrappy but the reactions trained through chi sau have come to the fore and allowed me to avoid follow up shots / grabs etc and found homes for my own shots without thinking about it at all.

[Wayfaring]

An interesting side note on chi sau - here's a clip of Roy Nelson - a UFC heavyweight fighter, who does lohan shaolin kung fu and has since he's been 16.

Sticky hands clip around 4:00 mark.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=80eh_LzZNmI

[Ali. R]

Nobody offers you a bridge, nobody gives you their arms in a predetermined manner, no one stands square to you and no one does "chi sao" with you in a fight.

Chi Sao is not fighting, but it’s within its very own attributes of development that we use to fight with: sensitivity/sensibility, reflex, timing, energy and positioning.

You’re right; no one does that for you, because you have to do it yourself (bridge contact) with a defensive structure or Mon Sao (asking hands).

And you’re also right about “no one stands squared to you”. This is why you’re taught to find and keep the right position upon bridge contact (Bridge Walking).

Defensive structure, Mon Sao or Attacking the Attack = Making Bridge Contact
Lop Sao = Line Control (only if your attack is blocked)
Bridge Walking = Squared Up to Your Opponent

The thing that ‘Chi Sao’ has that can actually help you while fighting is its sensibility and reflex development , by making bridge contact just from a touch one will know when to stay with what comes and when to follow with what goes; and not just with the whole body, but with the hands as well.

He throws a strike; then you block it, when his hand retreat (the blocked one) you follow that back to his center with a block/strike of your own as his other hand/strike comes out, Having good sensitivity is the best way to accomplish this.

Just from a block and by making contact one should be able to tell in which line of attack one’s opponent is taking (punch or kick), all from crowding his/her space or by attacking the attack you should be able to anticipate your opponent's intent and if contact is made properly you shouldn’t have to worry about blocking as much through timing/sensitivity and positioning.

[sanjuro_ronin]

These theories are all great guys but there is just one issue:
Specificity.
Our bodies adapt and develop base don the demands we put on them and that goes for our "sensitivity" as well.
In others words, chi sao in the WC VS WC context is developing the attributes to deal with...WC !
Just like a boxers "sensitvity" becomes a slave to fighting other boxers, this is the same for WC.
The attributes that get developed become to dependent on the platform AND what is being "received".

[Ali. R]

These theories are all great guys but there is just one issue:
Specificity.
Our bodies adapt and develop base don the demands we put on them and that goes for our "sensitivity" as well.
In others words, chi sao in the WC VS WC context is developing the attributes to deal with...WC !
Just like a boxers "sensitvity" becomes a slave to fighting other boxers, this is the same for WC.
The attributes that get developed become to dependent on the platform AND what is being "received".

It shouldn’t be a problem to use the attributes of Chi Sao development (sensitivity/sensibility, reflex, timing, energy and positioning) when fighting against other arts. You should just fight your fight and let him fight his. The key is try to stay in his face and don’t let him run away and force him to fight up the middle, this way when he attacks, he would find it hard to retreat based on the fact that you’ve attacked his attack (a web).

If their coming to you; that’s even better, so just meet them half way. From there; by jamming and wedging each of your offensive/defensive structures -or- intent, you will have every opportunity to use his/her energies against them, if one jams, wedge or slices with proper structure he/she will be able to use sensitivity, because one will be able to feel their opponent’s offensive and defensive intentions, and if one could keep his stance he would have even a greater chance in rerouting energies.

By staying consistent with structure awareness/integrity you should be able to work with whatever you’re jamming or wedging, if you’re not a slave to techniques or by doing a certain application to stop a certain attack, when the hands are free let them fly; with proper wing chun structure of course.

None of this will work, if one doesn’t crowed space upon bridge contact while jamming, wedging and slicing.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1171493]These theories are all great guys but there is just one issue:
Specificity.
Our bodies adapt and develop base don the demands we put on them and that goes for our "sensitivity" as well.
In others words, chi sao in the WC VS WC context is developing the attributes to deal with...WC !
Just like a boxers "sensitvity" becomes a slave to fighting other boxers, this is the same for WC.
The attributes that get developed become to dependent on the platform AND what is being "received".
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not quite true. WC was developed to deal with other styles. Good wc figters have fought other styles.
WSL fought different stylists. My sifu's first fight was against HK's best bak mei fighter, HKm's students -lui Ming Fai and others have fought against MT, some of my Tucson brothers have fought
other styles in open tournaments and some have road and street experience as well.
jason Lau fought in NY and elsewhere and so have many of his students.
Again- what you asy might apply to some wing chun but not all.

joy chaudhuri

[Wayfaring]

These theories are all great guys but there is just one issue:
Specificity.
Our bodies adapt and develop base don the demands we put on them and that goes for our "sensitivity" as well.
In others words, chi sao in the WC VS WC context is developing the attributes to deal with...WC !
Just like a boxers "sensitvity" becomes a slave to fighting other boxers, this is the same for WC.
The attributes that get developed become to dependent on the platform AND what is being "received".

So to translate this in my words:

If all you do with your chi sau is weak @$$ slap fighting, then all you will ever be is a weak @$$ slap fighter.

[JPinAZ]

This is what you asked right?

It's what I asked joy in relation to what he said, but I guess you thought it was for you (?)


You asked what part of those things are not fighting, correct?
Well NONE of them are fighting.
Attributes are NOT fighting, principles and techniques are not fighting.
drills and sets are not fighting.
A boxer doing hooks, jabs, crosses, uppercuts, bob n weaving, parrying and blocking is NOT fighting UNLESS he is doing them IN a fight.
Chi sao trains all those things WITHIN the chi sao platform which is NOT fighting.
Maybe I am misunderstanding your question...
You can train everything that is pertinent to fighting but unless you ARE fighting it ISN'T fighting.


Nobody offers you a bridge, nobody gives you their arms in a predetermined manner, no one stands square to you and no one does "chi sao" with you in a fight.
You must take what you develop in the safe environment of chi sao and apply it, refine it and use it in fighting.
I recall someone saying that chi sao is like riding a bike with training wheels.
I don't like that analogy and disagree with it, BUT I see the point.

Dude, I feel I've been pretty clear what I've been talking about. Yet here you are again going right back to taan/bong/fook squared up chi sau drill/platform, which I've already agreed with. It doesn't seem like you, but maybe you have reading comprehesion problems lately? :confused:

For the last time, I'm not talking about chi sau as only being just some fixed drill or platform - to me, that drill isn't all there is to 'chi sau' (very small part actually). Maybe that's the disconnect, it's clear you only see chi sau in this way, where I am talking 'Chi sau' as a bridging technology, and in that sense if is very present in 'fighting' - when ever there is a connection, chi sau technology is applicable IN A FIGHT - regardless how much you say otherwise.

To discuss this further is pointless, because afterat least 3 attempts, you're still totally missing (or ignoring) my point. Unless you're just taking a p!ss?

[sanjuro_ronin]

It's what I asked joy in relation to what he said, but I guess you thought it was for you (?)





Dude, I feel I've been pretty clear what I've been talking about. Yet here you are again going right back to taan/bong/fook squared up chi sau drill/platform, which I've already agreed with. It doesn't seem like you, but maybe you have reading comprehesion problems lately? :confused:

For the last time, I'm not talking about chi sau as only being just some fixed drill or platform - to me, that drill isn't all there is to 'chi sau' (very small part actually). Maybe that's the disconnect, it's clear you only see chi sau in this way, where I am talking 'Chi sau' as a bridging technology, and in that sense if is very present in 'fighting' - when ever there is a connection, chi sau technology is applicable IN A FIGHT - regardless how much you say otherwise.

To discuss this further is pointless, because afterat least 3 attempts, you're still totally missing (or ignoring) my point. Unless you're just taking a p!ss?

Watch the tone.
Fine you seem to think that I am not getting what you are saying, fine I accept that.
SHOW ME then an example of what you are saying.

[Frost]

Watch the tone.
Fine you seem to think that I am not getting what you are saying, fine I accept that.
SHOW ME then an example of what you are saying.

thats the problem, people say chi sau rolling as seen is just the entry it becomes more than that, more like sparring but where are the clips of this, all we see is the rolling platform for the most part

[sanjuro_ronin]

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1171493]These theories are all great guys but there is just one issue:
Specificity.
Our bodies adapt and develop base don the demands we put on them and that goes for our "sensitivity" as well.
In others words, chi sao in the WC VS WC context is developing the attributes to deal with...WC !
Just like a boxers "sensitvity" becomes a slave to fighting other boxers, this is the same for WC.
The attributes that get developed become to dependent on the platform AND what is being "received".
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not quite true. WC was developed to deal with other styles. Good wc figters have fought other styles.
WSL fought different stylists. My sifu's first fight was against HK's best bak mei fighter, HKm's students -lui Ming Fai and others have fought against MT, some of my Tucson brothers have fought
other styles in open tournaments and some have road and street experience as well.
jason Lau fought in NY and elsewhere and so have many of his students.
Again- what you asy might apply to some wing chun but not all.

joy chaudhuri


Ideally yes of course and those you mentioned were known for being fighters VA other systems.
BUT were they able to fight those systems BECAUSE of their chi sao OR in-spite of it?
Also, I wonder how much their chi sao AMY h ave changed BECAUSE of their practical experience.

[sanjuro_ronin]

thats the problem, people say chi sau rolling as seen is just the entry it becomes more than that, more like sparring but where are the clips of this, all we see is the rolling platform for the most part

I am perfectly open to the possibility that my 5 years in WC did NOT expose me the the "real" Chi sao.
So I humbly ask: Show me.
Now, take into account that during my time in WC I fought boxers, karateka and MT fighters and I won some and lost some.
I can boast that I won more than lost but that is neither here nor there since I was hardly a "WC purist".

[Frost]

I am perfectly open to the possibility that my 5 years in WC did NOT expose me the the "real" Chi sao.
So I humbly ask: Show me.
Now, take into account that during my time in WC I fought boxers, karateka and MT fighters and I won some and lost some.
I can boast that I won more than lost but that is neither here nor there since I was hardly a "WC purist".

i would so like a list of the people who got the real wing chun and by definition the real chi sao because for a simple art its so fiing complicated and fractured lol

[sanjuro_ronin]

So to translate this in my words:

If all you do with your chi sau is weak @$$ slap fighting, then all you will ever be is a weak @$$ slap fighter.

In a nutshell, yes.
I have no problem in Chi Sao STARTING off as it typically does, it gives the student a hands on understanding of the correct structure and sensitivity needed to deal with "clinch fighting" WITHIN the WC context.
However, as soon as the student HAS grasped this, the chi sao should move (evolve) to dealing with how OTHER systems will present problems to him.

[Robinhood]

So to translate this in my words:

If all you do with your chi sau is weak @$$ slap fighting, then all you will ever be is a weak @$$ slap fighter.

It looks like you are thinking that sport fighting is reality fighting, it is a way of battling with rules that favors Neanderthal skills, not much room in their rule set that favors higher level skills that sensitivity training would give you.

Chi-sau training is one of the few ways that is able to reprogram improper responses to applied forces, it is not a sparring game like you see it used and practiced in most WC schools.

If you used the training for the right development it is great, but most people don't know how use it correctly.

If you don't know the difference between sport fighting and real confrontations, your experience is clearly lacking.


Cheers

[sanjuro_ronin]

It looks like you are thinking that sport fighting is reality fighting, it is a way of battling with rules that favors Neanderthal skills, not much room in their rule set that favors higher level skills that sensitivity training would give you.

Chi-sau training is one of the few ways that is able to reprogram improper responses to applied forces, it is not a sparring game like you see it used and practiced in most WC schools.

If you used the training for the right development it is great, but most people don't know how use it correctly.

If you don't know the difference between sport fighting and real confrontations, your experience is clearly lacking.


Cheers

Classic Robinhood !

[Wayfaring]

It looks like you are thinking that sport fighting is reality fighting, it is a way of battling with rules that favors Neanderthal skills, not much room in their rule set that favors higher level skills that sensitivity training would give you.

When rules are reduced to nothing fighting much more resembles sport fighting than it does chi sau.

Oh, and besides changing the rules to become a glorified slap fight, please enlighten us how you would change fighting rule sets so that it favors "higher level skills that sensitivity training would give you".



Chi-sau training is one of the few ways that is able to reprogram improper responses to applied forces, it is not a sparring game like you see it used and practiced in most WC schools.

From my experience people who do a lot of chi sau and don't spar have the exact same natural reaction to getting punched in the face other people do - they throw their hands up and move back in a straight line. Usually they are worse than beginners because they perceive themselves as experts or highly skilled fighters. I don't see a lot of "reprogramming improper responses to applied forces".



If you used the training for the right development it is great, but most people don't know how use it correctly.

I agree with this.


If you don't know the difference between sport fighting and real confrontations, your experience is clearly lacking.

If you think the gap between "sport fighting" and "real confrontations" is larger than the gap between chi sau and "real confrontations" you are living in fantasy land.

[Wayfaring]

In a nutshell, yes.
I have no problem in Chi Sao STARTING off as it typically does, it gives the student a hands on understanding of the correct structure and sensitivity needed to deal with "clinch fighting" WITHIN the WC context.

As a tool to help fine-tune your close range fighting, chi sau is great.



However, as soon as the student HAS grasped this, the chi sao should move (evolve) to dealing with how OTHER systems will present problems to him.
When the tool to fine-tune now becomes the primary training element of fight training, now you have a problem.

[Robinhood]

When rules are reduced to nothing fighting much more resembles sport fighting than it does chi sau.

Oh, and besides changing the rules to become a glorified slap fight, please enlighten us how you would change fighting rule sets so that it favors "higher level skills that sensitivity training would give you".


From my experience people who do a lot of chi sau and don't spar have the exact same natural reaction to getting punched in the face other people do - they throw their hands up and move back in a straight line. Usually they are worse than beginners because they perceive themselves as experts or highly skilled fighters. I don't see a lot of "reprogramming improper responses to applied forces".


I agree with this.

If you think the gap between "sport fighting" and "real confrontations" is larger than the gap between chi sau and "real confrontations" you are living in fantasy land.

If no rules and confrontation still looks like Neanderthal sport, then the levels of the skill are not high yet.

If the people you are practice with still run into your power, you are not practicing with high level people.

Sport is sport, that is the way it is going to look to give entertainment and safety.


Chi-Sao is just one of many tools, it is not a style or end all, or a method of fighting.


Cheers

[duende]

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin
In a nutshell, yes.
I have no problem in Chi Sao STARTING off as it typically does, it gives the student a hands on understanding of the correct structure and sensitivity needed to deal with "clinch fighting" WITHIN the WC context.
As a tool to help fine-tune your close range fighting, chi sau is great.

Quote:
However, as soon as the student HAS grasped this, the chi sao should move (evolve) to dealing with how OTHER systems will present problems to him.
When the tool to fine-tune now becomes the primary training element of fight training, now you have a problem.

If you think Chi Sau is solely about testing your sensitivity skills against other WC systems, then yes... the usage of of this "tool" in the development fighting skill is clearly lacking.

However if you use Chi Sau as a bridging method to engage space from all ranges and facings. And learn how to deal with energy from a multitude of fighting methods and tactics (other styles), then it actually becomes a clear part of one's fighting body mechanics and guard.

Everyone has their own view of what Chi Sau is. No one here can speak for all lineages or understandings.

Often people here do not see beyond the "techniques" of WC and thereby utilize it as a "style". With this kind of mindset, how will they ever be able to apply their WC skills in the real world.

In my experience, WC is not a style... it's an understanding of body mechanics and principles that help one use facing and points of leverage to their utmost advantage... or maximum efficiency.

my .02

[Phil Redmond]

All the Chi Sao training in the world won't teach you how to take a full power hit and continue fighting. You need to train under pressure to learn how to fight regardless of the style. So unless you go out and start street fights the best way IS sport fighting. Also, street fighting is something different. I'll hit a guy with my keys, a stick, or whatever is available in a street fight. You don't need much martial skills for that. I teach chi sao and it can be a good training tool but sport fighting is a way more realistic. Usually people who don't pressure test their art look down on sport fighting and that's why other martial artists look down on Wing Chun.

[sanjuro_ronin]

All the Chi Sao training in the world won't teach you how to take a full power hit and continue fighting. You need to train under pressure to learn how to fight regardless of the style. So unless you go out and start street fights the best way IS sport fighting. Also, street fighting is something different. I'll hit a guy with my keys, a stick, or whatever is available in a street fight. You don't need much martial skills for that. I teach chi sao and it can be a good training tool but sport fighting is a way more realistic. Usually people who are afraid to fight, or have never pressure tested their art look down on sport fighting

A voice crying in the wilderness...

[Phil Redmond]

A voice crying in the wilderness...

Lol, I changed the word "afraid" so as not to ruffle any feathers......:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

Lol, I changed the word "afraid" so as not to ruffle any feathers......:D

PC loving SOB :D

I feel you bro...

I've noticed that the those that feel sport fighting is "less" than "real" fighting have never done sport fighting and have only fought "unskilled" people in "the street", if they've fought at all.

[Phil Redmond]

Wing Chun is a "martial" art. The word martial is derived from Mars, the god of war. If you're not realistically training to fight you're not doing a "martial" art. PERIOD. But I guess most Wing Chun people will continue with business as usual looking for a way to fight without fighting. Hmm, I've heard that somewhere before.....

[sanjuro_ronin]

Wing Chun is a "martial" art. The word martial is derived from Mars, the god of war. If you're not realistically training to fight you're not doing a "martial" art. PERIOD. But I guess most Wing Chun people will continue with business as usual looking for a way to fight without fighting. Hmm, I've heard that somewhere before.....

I have no problem with people doing a MA and NOT fighting.
Shocking I know but the truth is most people do it because they like it.
BUT most people do NOT go on MA forums expressing those views with nothing to back them up and they certainly don't argue with those that HAVE fighting experience.
You don't see recreational drivers going on a pro drivers forum and argue driving technique with current or former pro drivers.
While most of us have retired from the fight game in ALL it's forms, we at least have the experience to comment on it.
I don't even expect people to agree with my views, where's the fun in that? but at least have a DIRECT and PERSONAL base for the views you do have.
Know what I mean?

[Phil Redmond]

I have no problem with people doing a MA and NOT fighting.
Shocking I know but the truth is most people do it because they like it.
BUT most people do NOT go on MA forums expressing those views with nothing to back them up and they certainly don't argue with those that HAVE fighting experience.
You don't see recreational drivers going on a pro drivers forum and argue driving technique with current or former pro drivers.
While most of us have retired from the fight game in ALL it's forms, we at least have the experience to comment on it.
I don't even expect people to agree with my views, where's the fun in that? but at least have a DIRECT and PERSONAL base for the views you do have.
Know what I mean?
I guess everyone's not a fighter. The old school way of thinking is that the majority of your students don't fight, but they maintain the school financially. Out of those students you may find a couple of fighters so you train them more realistically.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I guess everyone's not a fighter. The old school way of thinking is that the majority of your students don't fight, but they maintain the school financially. Out of those students you may find a couple of fighters so you train them more realistically.

Indeed, nevertheless I firmly believe that no one can develop their MA to the highest level if they do NOT fight (if not in competition at least in class and realistically).
It is in fighting that we "unlock the secrets" to our chosen MA.
Of course, not everyone is that interested BUT all should be taught by a teacher that DOES have the PRACTICAL grasp of what FIGHTING with the MA in question is all about.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hey Phil, whatever happened to Vic ??

[duende]

All the Chi Sao training in the world won't teach you how to take a full power hit and continue fighting. You need to train under pressure to learn how to fight regardless of the style. So unless you go out and start street fights the best way IS sport fighting. Also, street fighting is something different. I'll hit a guy with my keys, a stick, or whatever is available in a street fight. You don't need much martial skills for that. I teach chi sao and it can be a good training tool but sport fighting is a way more realistic. Usually people who don't pressure test their art look down on sport fighting and that's why other martial artists look down on Wing Chun.

Sports fighting is completely necessary. That's obvious to anyone who understands pressure testing.

But I would argue that one not only has to be able to not only take a real punch, but also lock-up and divert oncoming succeeding punches as part their chi sau skill challenges.

This is simply a core factor of bridging.

[WC1277]

You're right Sanjuro, chi sao does not teach you how to take a hit in the face and keep fighting. But neither does sport fighting really at the end of the day IMO. I've seen many fights and been in a few in my day and I can say with much confidence that a person can either take a punch or they can't regardless of 'training'. On top of it there's many factors and chemicals that come into play. A guy in the right circumstances may be able to take a punch one day and not another. If 'sparring' is so incredibly important to being able to fight, why is it that many guys are able to successfully both get hit and end a fight with absolutely no training at all?

IMO there's nothing in sparring that chi sau can't compensate for in some way. Good chi sau anyway... and if there's any skill that does come from sparring that is useful in real world testing, it's not flinching when objects are coming very close to your body. The chi sau that I do, that Joy does and some others, address that issue very well and is an important skill set to have. Knowing the attacking line and defending line is paramount to any successful fighter. If you're just training getting hit, then you've missed the point in the first place...

[Phil Redmond]

I heard a few good boxers/kickboxers etc., say that any fighter can have their a$$ handed to them on any given day.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You're right Sanjuro, chi sao does not teach you how to take a hit in the face and keep fighting. But neither does sport fighting really at the end of the day IMO. I've seen many fights and been in a few in my day and I can say with much confidence that a person can either take a punch or they can't regardless of 'training'. On top of it there's many factors and chemicals that come into play. A guy in the right circumstances may be able to take a punch one day and not another. If 'sparring' is so incredibly important to being able to fight, why is it that many guys are able to successfully both get hit and end a fight with absolutely no training at all?

IMO there's nothing in sparring that chi sau can't compensate for in some way. Good chi sau anyway... and if there's any skill that does come from sparring that is useful in real world testing, it's not flinching when objects are coming very close to your body. The chi sau that I do, that Joy does and some others, address that issue very well and is an important skill set to have. Knowing the attacking line and defending line is paramount to any successful fighter. If you're just training getting hit, then you've missed the point in the first place...

Honestly, if you don't see the difference between sparring hard and chi sao, I don't know what to say.
While I have seen some (very few) untrained guys take shots from trained fighters, I have seen FAR MORE get KO'd quicker than spit.
The exceptions are not the rule.
But lets take your premiss to its natural conclusion:
If a guy that trains fighting on a regular basis ( hits hard, fights others that hit hard, know how to hit and take a hit,etc) can't take out a certain untrained individual, then what hope does a WC person that DOESN'T train to fight?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I heard a few good boxers/kickboxers etc., say that any fighter can have their a$$ handed to them on any given day.

Of course, anyone that has fought knows that ANYONE has the potential to kick your ass, why? because they've all been there.
I worry about the guy that has never been hit to the point that he thinks (WTF was THAT !?) or the guy that has never fought and felt, "Oh ****, what am I gonna do?" when his best shot doesn't even make the other guy blink.
THAT is fighting. That is what makes a MA, THAT is what tempers a MA into a fighting art.

[Vajramusti]

BUT all should be taught by a teacher that DOES have the PRACTICAL grasp of what FIGHTING with the MA in question is all about.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Agree

joy chaudhuri

[WC1277]

Honestly, if you don't see the difference between sparring hard and chi sao, I don't know what to say.
While I have seen some (very few) untrained guys take shots from trained fighters, I have seen FAR MORE get KO'd quicker than spit.
The exceptions are not the rule.
But lets take your premiss to its natural conclusion:
If a guy that trains fighting on a regular basis ( hits hard, fights others that hit hard, know how to hit and take a hit,etc) can't take out a certain untrained individual, then what hope does a WC person that DOESN'T train to fight?

I do see the difference Sanjuro and at one time would have been on your side but my skill set and the way Fong Sifu teaches chi sao has very successfully dispelled that notion. You either have guts or you don't. In our line it's one of the core principles that without it your WC will probably fail you. In my experience it's not something you can train consistently because no two fighters are the same and more importantly training against fighters who have a regimen is not necessarily going to serve you well. You have to be honest with yourself and say that you learn your opponent the more you spar with him. Everyone does. Now some would say that that's a good thing, you're adapting to them, hence being able to counter them. But at the same time, if you really look at it, you are also slowly starting to play their game. It IS chasing and it becomes pre determination as a response to learning your opponent. The WC I do, that's a cardinal sin and is very big reason against sparring or sport fighting. When you finally do arrive in a real situation you're going to fight how you train, right? Well, your opponent, who probably doesn't have training is going to fight anyway he can and most likely it's going to be inconsistent. The WC I do does not allow for you to play anyone's game except your own. Chi sao is not fighting and the beauty of good chi sao is that you are going to fight how "you" fight but it's going to hinder you from making the dumb mistakes that in milliseconds can turn the fight around against you. As far as guts go, if you're intimidated by your opponent or how hard he hits, you've already lost in the first place. It's a decision, it's not a development. You may be able to make that decision easier because you've made it over and over again but you're fundamentally flawed in thinking that those much less skilled, smaller, or even "just do chi sau" aren't capable of making that decision. In fact, that's violating rule #1 of fighting.... Never underestimate your opponent....

[sanjuro_ronin]

I do see the difference Sanjuro and at one time would have been on your side but my skill set and the way Fong Sifu teaches chi sao has very successfully dispelled that notion. You either have guts or you don't. In our line it's one of the core principles that without it your WC will probably fail you. In my experience it's not something you can train consistently because no two fighters are the same and more importantly training against fighters who have a regimen is not necessarily going to serve you well. You have to be honest with yourself and say that you learn your opponent the more you spar with him. Everyone does. Now some would say that that's a good thing, you're adapting to them, hence being able to counter them. But at the same time, if you really look at it, you are also slowly starting to play their game. It IS chasing and it becomes pre determination as a response to learning your opponent. The WC I do, that's a cardinal sin and is very big reason against sparring or sport fighting. When you finally do arrive in a real situation you're going to fight how you train, right? Well, your opponent, who probably doesn't have training is going to fight anyway he can and most likely it's going to be inconsistent. The WC I do does not allow for you to play anyone's game except your own. Chi sao is not fighting and the beauty of good chi sao is that you are going to fight how "you" fight but it's going to hinder you from making the dumb mistakes that in milliseconds can turn the fight around against you. As far as guts go, if you're intimidated by your opponent or how hard he hits, you've already lost in the first place. It's a decision, it's not a development. You may be able to make that decision easier because you've made it over and over again but you're fundamentally flawed in thinking that those much less skilled, smaller, or even "just do chi sau" aren't capable of making that decision. In fact, that's violating rule #1 of fighting.... Never underestimate your opponent....

I have no argument with what you have said here my friend.
May I ask who you deal with the wrestlers over and under in Chi Sao or the Thai Clinch?

[WC1277]

I have no argument with what you have said here my friend.
May I ask who you deal with the wrestlers over and under in Chi Sao or the Thai Clinch?

Chum Kiu with a dash of Biu Gee my friend ;)

[Vajramusti]

I have no argument with what you have said here my friend.
May I ask who you deal with the wrestlers over and under in Chi Sao or the Thai Clinch?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sanjuro- I have dealt with wrestlers and MT practitioners- chi sao skills that I learned and developed did not let me down.
Your comments may apply to some but not to others.

joy chaudhuri

[sanjuro_ronin]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sanjuro- I have dealt with wrestlers and MT practitioners- chi sao skills that I learned and developed did not let me down.
Your comments may apply to some but not to others.

joy chaudhuri

No doubt and when I speak in generalizations I am doing just that, as we all are of course.
But the reason I ask is that the range that chi sao is drilled in, caters to clinch grapplers/strikers like wrestlers and MT boxers.

[Ali. R]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sanjuro- I have dealt with wrestlers and MT practitioners- chi sao skills that I learned and developed did not let me down.
Your comments may apply to some but not to others.

joy chaudhuri

I come from a wrestling/boxing back ground myself and was able to adjust very well against other arts dealing with my 'Chi Sao' principles as long if I fought my fight.

You're right, it "may apply to some but not to others".

[Robinhood]

You're right Sanjuro, chi sao does not teach you how to take a hit in the face and keep fighting. But neither does sport fighting really at the end of the day IMO. I've seen many fights and been in a few in my day and I can say with much confidence that a person can either take a punch or they can't regardless of 'training'. On top of it there's many factors and chemicals that come into play. A guy in the right circumstances may be able to take a punch one day and not another. If 'sparring' is so incredibly important to being able to fight, why is it that many guys are able to successfully both get hit and end a fight with absolutely no training at all?

IMO there's nothing in sparring that chi sau can't compensate for in some way. Good chi sau anyway... and if there's any skill that does come from sparring that is useful in real world testing, it's not flinching when objects are coming very close to your body. The chi sau that I do, that Joy does and some others, address that issue very well and is an important skill set to have. Knowing the attacking line and defending line is paramount to any successful fighter. If you're just training getting hit, then you've missed the point in the first place...

Very well put, I agree.

I have also done my share of full contact training, and I can tell you that it is low level training that does not lead to much more than improved sport fighting, not improved application of an efficient martial art. ..... .(far from it)

If you think that that trading punches is a efficient way of spending your time, go ahead, but don't try to con people that know better that it is needed or even useful.
But if that is all you know how to, I guess you don't have much of a choice.



Cheers

[taai gihk yahn]

I am perfectly open to the possibility that my 5 years in WC did NOT expose me the the "real" Chi sao.


i would so like a list of the people who got the real wing chun and by definition the real chi sao because for a simple art its so fiing complicated and fractured lol


If you don't know the difference between sport fighting and real confrontations, your experience is clearly lacking.


a glorified slap fight

you know, you guys keep up this line of discourse, and he might just come back...

IS THAT WHAT YOU REALLY WANT?!?

[Frost]

you know, you guys keep up this line of discourse, and he might just come back...

IS THAT WHAT YOU REALLY WANT?!?

sorry (hangs head in shame....)

[Phil Redmond]

you know, you guys keep up this line of discourse, and he might just come back...

IS THAT WHAT YOU REALLY WANT?!?

That's a good one Tai Chi guy . . .lol

[wingchunIan]

No doubt and when I speak in generalizations I am doing just that, as we all are of course.
But the reason I ask is that the range that chi sao is drilled in, caters to clinch grapplers/strikers like wrestlers and MT boxers.

I suspect many of the disagreements about the efficacy of chi sau / wing chun derive from the varied ways that seemingly the same thing is taught even across clubs within the same lineages. IME for wrestling over/under hooks to be an issue you have to let the range close beyond the fixed elbow distance and as for an MT clinch, the classic defence taught in every MT class is to immediately get your hips under, straighten the spine and get the head up to avoid getting your head pulled down followed by pushing the heel of the palm up under the opponents chin as its almost impossible to maintain a good clinch whilst your head is being pushed away. If your wing chun posture is correct then the clinch becomes hard to apply and driving straight up the centre line to drive the opponents head back should be familiar to anyone who has trained WC.

[Vajramusti]

I suspect many of the disagreements about the efficacy of chi sau / wing chun derive from the varied ways that seemingly the same thing is taught even across clubs within the same lineages. IME for wrestling over/under hooks to be an issue you have to let the range close beyond the fixed elbow distance and as for an MT clinch, the classic defence taught in every MT class is to immediately get your hips under, straighten the spine and get the head up to avoid getting your head pulled down followed by pushing the heel of the palm up under the opponents chin as its almost impossible to maintain a good clinch whilst your head is being pushed away. If your wing chun posture is correct then the clinch becomes hard to apply and driving straight up the centre line to drive the opponents head back should be familiar to anyone who has trained WC.
----------------------------------
Good points. A somewhat different point-- the key to both instances imo is structure structure structure and knowing the defense line and the attack line.


joy chaudhuri

[Wayfaring]

IME for wrestling over/under hooks to be an issue you have to let the range close beyond the fixed elbow distance and as for an MT clinch, the classic defence taught in every MT class is to immediately get your hips under, straighten the spine and get the head up to avoid getting your head pulled down followed by pushing the heel of the palm up under the opponents chin as its almost impossible to maintain a good clinch whilst your head is being pushed away.

I agree to be in a clinch you have lost control over your own space from a WCK perspective.

IMO wrestlers over/under is different than the MT clinch. For a wrestlers over/under you can either dig for the other underhook, or go both overhooks and walk your hips in. Then use rotational force to throw opponent to the side to create space. Then you can get your bridge back.

MT clinch - Ian's right. Posture, walk your hips in. Keep palms ready to intercept knees. This is a battle - really hard to walk them in. Once they are in you can grip behind the head and spin them off to make space, like the other clinch.



If your wing chun posture is correct then the clinch becomes hard to apply and driving straight up the centre line to drive the opponents head back should be familiar to anyone who has trained WC.
I've found it a difficult conscious physical effort to walk the hips in - different from standard good WCK posture. It's a fight. A live opponent wants to keep space, spin you, knees.

[Frost]

I agree to be in a clinch you have lost control over your own space from a WCK perspective.

IMO wrestlers over/under is different than the MT clinch. For a wrestlers over/under you can either dig for the other underhook, or go both overhooks and walk your hips in. Then use rotational force to throw opponent to the side to create space. Then you can get your bridge back.

MT clinch - Ian's right. Posture, walk your hips in. Keep palms ready to intercept knees. This is a battle - really hard to walk them in. Once they are in you can grip behind the head and spin them off to make space, like the other clinch.


I've found it a difficult conscious physical effort to walk the hips in - different from standard good WCK posture. It's a fight. A live opponent wants to keep space, spin you, knees.

i know you know this but just wanted to be pedantic (before violent design get here and has a fit lol:
The thai clinch is not just the double neck tie up, they use single head controls, bicep control, underhooks and overhooks as well,
The main difference between a wrestlers clinch and a Thai striking clinch for me (other than the lack of leg attacks) is that a wrestler want to bring your hips in and close off space, a striker as you say wants to create space in order to knee and elbow

two differences for me between anything i did and saw in wingchun and the Thai i train now and the MMA i do is:
1) first defence is to bull your neck up , i was taught to never raise my shoulders in the wing chun i did and have never seen anyone else do it, but this is essential to the clinch game in order to shorten the lever arm and stop bing pulled down
2) in order to get your hips under your base (which as you say is a real dog fight to do) you sometimes need to level change and use a penetration step to get them under, i never saw this action in the wing chun i did, yes in the final set their is the bowing action used to recover your base but there is a big difference between standing still and raising your head up whilst bent over, and recovering your hips by shooting a single or penetration step whilst bent over

[Wayfaring]

i know you know this but just wanted to be pedantic (before violent design get here and has a fit lol:
The thai clinch is not just the double neck tie up, they use single head controls, bicep control, underhooks and overhooks as well,
The main difference between a wrestlers clinch and a Thai striking clinch for me (other than the lack of leg attacks) is that a wrestler want to bring your hips in and close off space, a striker as you say wants to create space in order to knee and elbow

two differences for me between anything i did and saw in wingchun and the Thai i train now and the MMA i do is:
1) first defence is to bull your neck up , i was taught to never raise my shoulders in the wing chun i did and have never seen anyone else do it, but this is essential to the clinch game in order to shorten the lever arm and stop bing pulled down
2) in order to get your hips under your base (which as you say is a real dog fight to do) you sometimes need to level change and use a penetration step to get them under, i never saw this action in the wing chun i did, yes in the final set their is the bowing action used to recover your base but there is a big difference between standing still and raising your head up whilst bent over, and recovering your hips by shooting a single or penetration step whilst bent over

All accurate IMO.

[k gledhill]

VT isnt doing chi-sao to clinch.

[Frost]

VT isnt doing chi-sao to clinch.

maybe not, but if you want to fight that close you had better figure out what might happen if the other guy decides he wants to clinch and not hang out at hand fighting range, and some of the things wing chun is known for can get you destroyed in a clinch if you are not ready for it

[sanjuro_ronin]

VT isnt doing chi-sao to clinch.

No, but in a "real fight" with a non-WC person ( and as we've seen even with a WC person at times-more often than not) it does become a clinch, which leads to "clinch fighting" which ends up leading to a take down and ground fighting.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Frost;1171803]maybe not, but if you want to fight that close you had better figure out what might happen if the other guy decides he wants to clinch and not hang out at hand fighting range, and some of the things wing chun is known for can get you destroyed in a clinch if you are not ready for it[/QUOTE------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
?????Ranges? Clinches? Zero inch is ok with me..My Wing chun prepares me for that.


joy chaudhuri

[Frost]

[QUOTE=Frost;1171803]maybe not, but if you want to fight that close you had better figure out what might happen if the other guy decides he wants to clinch and not hang out at hand fighting range, and some of the things wing chun is known for can get you destroyed in a clinch if you are not ready for it[/QUOTE------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
?????Ranges? Clinches? Zero inch is ok with me..My Wing chun prepares me for that.


joy chaudhuri

And as said countless times, it would be nice to see this because every clip of wing chun v clinch i have seen doesnt end very good for the wing chun side

Not to say it doesnt happen but would be nice to actually be able to see it and appreciate it :)

[k gledhill]

maybe not, but if you want to fight that close you had better figure out what might happen if the other guy decides he wants to clinch and not hang out at hand fighting range, and some of the things wing chun is known for can get you destroyed in a clinch if you are not ready for it


No, but in a "real fight" with a non-WC person ( and as we've seen even with a WC person at times-more often than not) it does become a clinch, which leads to "clinch fighting" which ends up leading to a take down and ground fighting.


@ Frost, maybe ? You don't understand the reasons for chi-sao. I have a two time MT champion I have gone over clinch escapes with at my gym. His opinion was weirdly similar to VT, use a pak sao and angling to slap away attempts to grab, rather than get into all the hips in, breaking leverage, bollocks, his words (English).
Sure it happens and I also know and teach several ways to break out of necktie, but its not what chi-sao is for.
Structure will help us, as we adopt hips in to fight anyway, but there are things we need to know that simply arent in the VT play book. I keep an open inquiring mind.
BTW what thing wc is known for will get it destroyed, are you referring to ?

@ Sanjuro, I have hit the ground in 'real fights'. I have used kicks from the ground to keep guys from kicking my head in, during bar fights, like MMA, before it was even a tv show . I have used neck holds in ground fighting too. I used ground skills sparring in class years back, if it went to the ground my old sifu encouraged us to fight out of it ;) I emphasize sparring, not in chi-sao.
My main sparring partner was a BB Judo for 10+ years, he constantly tried to sweep me, throw me, etc... He also found that in his judo class guys couldnt get gi holds as easy with his hand skills. I am also a blue belt judo and I have been shown ground work by a student, purple belt BJJ. Avoiding is also a large part of take downs, strong stable bases, mobility and angling skills, of which OUR VT is skilled in. I cant say others adopt this angling moving idea.
I have , 'gasp~shock' actually knocked guys out cold trying to grab me :eek: yeah, crazy talk ! I see guys who dont do VT as being WIDE OPEN to a shot. Oh and I do take-downs too with ground 'skills', how good ?

[Frost]

@ Frost, maybe ? You don't understand the reasons for chi-sao. I have a two time MT champion I have gone over clinch escapes with at my gym. His opinion was weirdly similar to VT, use a pak sao and angling to slap away attempts to grab, rather than get into all the hips in, breaking leverage, bollocks, his words (English).
Sure it happens and I also know and teach several ways to break out of necktie, but its not what chi-sao is for.
Structure will help us, as we adopt hips in to fight anyway, but there are things we need to know that simply arent in the VT play book. I keep an open inquiring mind.
BTW what thing wc is known for will get it destroyed, are you referring to ?

@ Sanjuro, I have hit the ground in 'real fights'. I have used kicks from the ground to keep guys from kicking my head in, during bar fights, like MMA, before it was even a tv show . I have used neck holds in ground fighting too. I used ground skills sparring in class years back, if it went to the ground my old sifu encouraged us to fight out of it ;)
My main sparring partner was a BB Judo for 10+ years, he constantly tried to sweep me, throw me, etc... He also found that in his judo class guys couldnt get gi holds as easy with his hand skills. I am also a blue belt judo and I have been shown ground work by a student, purple belt BJJ. Avoiding is also a large part of take downs, strong stable bases, mobility and angling skills, of which OUR VT is skilled in. I cant say others adopt this angling moving idea.
I have , 'gasp~shock' actually knocked guys out cold trying to grab me :eek: yeah, crazy talk ! I see guys who dont do VT as being WIDE OPEN to a shot. Oh and I do take-downs too with ground 'skills', how good ?

umm thats known as prevention rather than cure, you use angling and knock the hands away before they clinch, easiier to do in straight wrestling when you dont have to worry about the other hand taking your head off, harder to do in Thai when the clinch normally happens as you are defending punches, these days most coaches teach the plum as something to hit if your punches miss or the guy slips them, rather than something to actually initiate on purpos.

Once they clinch you have to use the hip in bollocks or you get kneed the f^ck out, and care to name the guy because i have trained with nemorous regional, and national champs, not to mention a few guys with K1 experience and guys who have trained at the golden glory gym and various camps out in thailand and non of them call hips structure of or the standard escapes (which include paksaoing the inside arm to create space) bollocks so would be nice to know why this guy is, since you dropped him into the conversation and all :)

And i wasn't just talking about chi sao as much as i was range, if you want to fight at the range wing chun likes to fight at then getting to know the clinch might be a good idea thats all :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

@ Sanjuro, I have hit the ground in 'real fights'. I have used kicks from the ground to keep guys from kicking my head in, during bar fights, like MMA, before it was even a tv show . I have used neck holds in ground fighting too. I used ground skills sparring in class years back, if it went to the ground my old sifu encouraged us to fight out of it ;) I emphasize sparring, not in chi-sao.
My main sparring partner was a BB Judo for 10+ years, he constantly tried to sweep me, throw me, etc... He also found that in his judo class guys couldnt get gi holds as easy with his hand skills. I am also a blue belt judo and I have been shown ground work by a student, purple belt BJJ. Avoiding is also a large part of take downs, strong stable bases, mobility and angling skills, of which OUR VT is skilled in. I cant say others adopt this angling moving idea.
I have , 'gasp~shock' actually knocked guys out cold trying to grab me :eek: yeah, crazy talk ! I see guys who dont do VT as being WIDE OPEN to a shot. Oh and I do take-downs too with ground 'skills', how good ?

Ok and so have we all.
The point I was trying to make is that chi-sao is working within a range that CAN and DOES lead to clinch fighting.
It seems to me by your post that you may have gone "elsewhere" to deal with that issue.
Nothing wrong with that of course, especially in this day and age of the "grappler".
Something that past generations of WC peeps didn't have to deal with as much.

[k gledhill]

umm thats known as prevention rather than cure, you use angling and knock the hands away before they clinch, easiier to do in straight wrestling when you dont have to worry about the other hand taking your head off, harder to do in Thai when the clinch normally happens as you are defending punches, these days most coaches teach the plum as something to hit if your punches miss or the guy slips them, rather than something to actually initiate on purpos.

Once they clinch you have to use the hip in bollocks or you get kneed the f^ck out, and care to name the guy because i have trained with nemorous regional, and national champs, not to mention a few guys with K1 experience and guys who have trained at the golden glory gym and various camps out in thailand and non of them call hips structure of or the standard escapes (which include paksaoing the inside arm to create space) bollocks so would be nice to know why this guy is, since you dropped him into the conversation and all :)

And i wasn't just talking about chi sao as much as i was range, if you want to fight at the range wing chun likes to fight at then getting to know the clinch might be a good idea thats all :)

Prevention is what its about, like guys asking me what to do if a guy gets them in a rnc ? lmao.

Bobby Beckles (http://youtu.be/9N7R3cQiadg) [white trunks]The former Undisputed British & European Lightweight Muay Thai Kickboxing Champion. He is a nice guy, very informative, with lesser known clinching moves, one armed bicep smothers, easily adaptable from our neck grab at an angle, not allowing the opponent to breath 100% or face, with ribs open to shots. Good stuff.

OK range is one thing obviously. But you're not aware of the reasons WE do chi-sao. Chi-sao is a drill that in chains of modular stages, simply uses the partner to offer energy to enhance stances, striking power, reflex reactions to interceptions in real time, ALL with knock out force as the king ie, PUNCH to ko a guy. NEVER do we adopt a sticking feeling dead stance drill with stances like duck waddles.
I have to say that I have recently taken in several students of a local WC branch who after 'years' of training, have NEVER done seung ma toi ma drills [stepping forwards and angling backwards !]. It's like meeting a boxer who cant move his feet back or forth only one stance fixed while rolling ...crazy. Needless to say they like the mobility and angling approach espoused by our VT.
I agree I do know ways to escape clinches, it will happen.

[Happy Tiger]

Ok and so have we all.
The point I was trying to make is that chi-sao is working within a range that CAN and DOES lead to clinch fighting.
It seems to me by your post that you may have gone "elsewhere" to deal with that issue.
Nothing wrong with that of course, especially in this day and age of the "grappler".
Something that past generations of WC peeps didn't have to deal with as much.
This is true, because chi sau is, to me, a transitional, catalytic range. In real fighting, the 'trapping' chi sau range is usually zipped through in an instant, not swum around in the way are known to do in chi sau. This is a bad habit that some VT people cling to. As long as we are comfortable through experience in what ever range we find ourselves in, we should be ok. If you train to 'avoid' any part of the combat total sphere, you have an easy weekness to be exploited. If I get clinched or brought to the ground I just go 'weeeeeeeeee' and use the air time to get good position. In fact, since I'm known as 'the wing chun guy' in my circles, I use their perception that I don't want to go to the ground to my advantage...'suprise!!!':D

[sanjuro_ronin]

Prevention is whats its about, like guys asking me what to do if a guys gets them in a rnc ? lmao.

Bobby Beckles (http://youtu.be/9N7R3cQiadg) [white trunks]The former Undisputed British & European Lightweight Muay Thai Kickboxing Champion. He is a nice guy, very informative, with lesser known clinching moves, one armed bicep smothers, easily adaptable from our neck grab at an angle, not allowing the opponent to breath 100% or face, with ribs open to shots. Good stuff.

OK range is one thing obviously. But you're not aware of the reasons WE do chi-sao. Chi-sao is a drill that in chains of modular stages, simply uses the partner to offer energy to enhance stances, striking power, reflex reactions to interceptions in real time, ALL with knock out force as the king ie, PUNCH to ko a guy. NEVER do we adopt a sticking feeling dead stance drill with stances like duck waddles.
I have to say that I have recently taken in several students of a local WC branch who after 'years' of training, have NEVER done seung ma toi ma drills [stepping forwards and angling backwards !]. It's like meeting a boxer who cant move his feet back or forth only one stance fixed while rolling ...crazy. Needless to say they like the mobility and angling approach espoused by out VT.
I agree I do know ways to escape clinches, it will happen.

That sounds great Kev, can you link a video showing that?

[k gledhill]

That sounds great Kev, can you link a video showing that?


Which part ?

[Happy Tiger]

Prevention is whats its about, like guys asking me what to do if a guys gets them in a rnc ? lmao.

Bobby Beckles (http://youtu.be/9N7R3cQiadg) [white trunks]The former Undisputed British & European Lightweight Muay Thai Kickboxing Champion. He is a nice guy, very informative, with lesser known clinching moves, one armed bicep smothers, easily adaptable from our neck grab at an angle, not allowing the opponent to breath 100% or face, with ribs open to shots. Good stuff.

OK range is one thing obviously. But you're not aware of the reasons WE do chi-sao. Chi-sao is a drill that in chains of modular stages, simply uses the partner to offer energy to enhance stances, striking power, reflex reactions to interceptions in real time, ALL with knock out force as the king ie, PUNCH to ko a guy. NEVER do we adopt a sticking feeling dead stance drill with stances like duck waddles.
I have to say that I have recently taken in several students of a local WC branch who after 'years' of training, have NEVER done seung ma toi ma drills [stepping forwards and angling backwards !]. It's like meeting a boxer who cant move his feet back or forth only one stance fixed while rolling ...crazy. Needless to say they like the mobility and angling approach espoused by our VT.
I agree I do know ways to escape clinches, it will happen.
Some VT styles that incorporate 'shifting' do alot of chi sau without footwork.This to encourage shifting to solve space and line of energy problems. Then they get used to not using footwork untill they feel a strong advantage has been gained before getting mobile. Not a good stratagy over all. I'm going to NY for business this fall. Hopefully, I'll get a chance to visit some good gyms like yours.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Which part ?

This part:

the reasons WE do chi-sao. Chi-sao is a drill that in chains of modular stages, simply uses the partner to offer energy to enhance stances, striking power, reflex reactions to interceptions in real time, ALL with knock out force as the king ie, PUNCH to ko a guy. NEVER do we adopt a sticking feeling dead stance drill with stances like duck waddles.

[k gledhill]

This part:

I will see if I can do one or find one.

[k gledhill]

Some VT styles that incorporate 'shifting' do alot of chi sau without footwork.This to encourage shifting to solve space and line of energy problems. Then they get used to not using footwork untill they feel a strong advantage has been gained before getting mobile. Not a good stratagy over all. I'm going to NY for business this fall. Hopefully, I'll get a chance to visit some good gyms like yours.

A very limited outlook, in lieu of the myriad ways a fight can move, like a kaleidoscope stuck on only a few degrees of motion back and forth.
Fighting is chaos, by definition chaos is an unpredictable series of events happening before you. You cant have a set piece planned response or memorize a response. Intuitive actions coupled with a punch that can send a guy several feet on his arse might help, along with balance, timing, cadence, distance management....coupled with a mind set of combat tactics.

Look forward to the visit.

[wingchunIan]

wow....
In no particular order, doing chi sau without mobility and angling is called being a beginer! as soon as you can do poon sau reasonably competently you should be practising stepping and turning looking to create angles and play with the energy in the arms. As for clinch work well firstly if you maintain good posture instead of trying to imitate a boxer your head will be up and away from the opponent
making it harder to grab (watch real MT and see how upright their stance is, its not all just about the knees) and your arms maintaining their elbow position with your feet being mobile is enough to stop the distance closing. If the person does successfully engage a clinch use your palm strikes to drive the head back (MT fighters use the heel of the glove) and put your fingers into the eyes at the same time. If they tuck the chin so you can't get under it just use the septum of the nose instead if works every time.

[k gledhill]

wow....
In no particular order, doing chi sau without mobility and angling is called being a beginer! as soon as you can do poon sau reasonably competently you should be practising stepping and turning looking to create angles and play with the energy in the arms. As for clinch work well firstly if you maintain good posture instead of trying to imitate a boxer your head will be up and away from the opponent
making it harder to grab (watch real MT and see how upright their stance is, its not all just about the knees) and your arms maintaining their elbow position with your feet being mobile is enough to stop the distance closing. If the person does successfully engage a clinch use your palm strikes to drive the head back (MT fighters use the heel of the glove) and put your fingers into the eyes at the same time. If they tuck the chin so you can't get under it just use the septum of the nose instead if works every time.


Many just dont know the correlation of the moving and angling out of vt contact drills...to fighting.
I use similar methods for clinch, palm strike to turn the face back, then from whats there before me, I can try to open the arms up.

[Frost]

wow....
In no particular order, doing chi sau without mobility and angling is called being a beginer! as soon as you can do poon sau reasonably competently you should be practising stepping and turning looking to create angles and play with the energy in the arms. As for clinch work well firstly if you maintain good posture instead of trying to imitate a boxer your head will be up and away from the opponent
making it harder to grab (watch real MT and see how upright their stance is, its not all just about the knees) and your arms maintaining their elbow position with your feet being mobile is enough to stop the distance closing. If the person does successfully engage a clinch use your palm strikes to drive the head back (MT fighters use the heel of the glove) and put your fingers into the eyes at the same time. If they tuck the chin so you can't get under it just use the septum of the nose instead if works every time.

im confused if it works every time, then why in MMA and Thai do you see lots of pre-longed clinch exchanges i mean its very rare that as soon as the clinch is engaged it gets broken by the palm strike to the chin,
Also im surprised it works everytime for you, do people not think to simple palm the arm across past their head and then engage you in a head and arm clinch or anything like that :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

im confused if it works every time, then why in MMA and Thai do you see lots of pre-longed clinch exchanges i mean its very rare that as soon as the clinch is engaged it gets broken by the palm strike to the chin,
Also im surprised it works everytime for you, do people not think to simple palm the arm across past their head and then engage you in a head and arm clinch or anything like that :)

Stop it ! Bad boy !

[Frost]

Prevention is what its about, like guys asking me what to do if a guy gets them in a rnc ? lmao.

Bobby Beckles (http://youtu.be/9N7R3cQiadg) [white trunks]The former Undisputed British & European Lightweight Muay Thai Kickboxing Champion. He is a nice guy, very informative, with lesser known clinching moves, one armed bicep smothers, easily adaptable from our neck grab at an angle, not allowing the opponent to breath 100% or face, with ribs open to shots. Good stuff.

OK range is one thing obviously. But you're not aware of the reasons WE do chi-sao. Chi-sao is a drill that in chains of modular stages, simply uses the partner to offer energy to enhance stances, striking power, reflex reactions to interceptions in real time, ALL with knock out force as the king ie, PUNCH to ko a guy. NEVER do we adopt a sticking feeling dead stance drill with stances like duck waddles.
I have to say that I have recently taken in several students of a local WC branch who after 'years' of training, have NEVER done seung ma toi ma drills [stepping forwards and angling backwards !]. It's like meeting a boxer who cant move his feet back or forth only one stance fixed while rolling ...crazy. Needless to say they like the mobility and angling approach espoused by our VT.
I agree I do know ways to escape clinches, it will happen.

i dont think anyone would ask you waht to do if they were caught in a RNC, they would ask a grappler who would say prevention is best, but who would also be realistic and know its going to happen and thus prepare for the worst and actually train defences :)

Range is one thing, but the most important from my point of view are a lack of a low stance with the hips down and back slanted, and the lack of a level change or a very low kneeing stance similar to a penetration step both of which for defending body locks and leg attacks are a necessity:
Some southern arts do have a low stance with a 45 degree stance, southern dragon for example which is a necessity for a anti clinch game it allows you to keep your hips away from your opponent, and protect from low line leg shots
others have low stances similar to a penetration shot which allows you to recover your centre when you have been bent over/snapped down by your opponent, CLF has this with its low bows amongst other stances

It also appears not to have upper cuts or overhand punches which are a necessity in the clinch

And like ronin i too would like to see the clips of power knockouts, because to be honest wing chun is not the first chinese art i think of when i think about power knockout systems, but would love to see it as im always willing to learn :)

[Frost]

Stop it ! Bad boy !

what me hey i was nice i could have also mentioned if structure and movement prevented the clinch so well why do we see it in so many fights, even those like K where its not allowed :confused::cool:

[k gledhill]

i dont think anyone would ask you waht to do if they were caught in a RNC, they would ask a grappler who would say prevention is best, but who would also be realistic and know its going to happen and thus prepare for the worst and actually train defences :)

Range is one thing, but the most important from my point of view are a lack of a low stance with the hips down and back slanted, and the lack of a level change or a very low kneeing stance similar to a penetration step both of which for defending body locks and leg attacks are a necessity:
Some southern arts do have a low stance with a 45 degree stance, southern dragon for example which is a necessity for a anti clinch game it allows you to keep your hips away from your opponent, and protect from low line leg shots
others have low stances similar to a penetration shot which allows you to recover your centre when you have been bent over/snapped down by your opponent, CLF has this with its low bows amongst other stances

It also appears not to have upper cuts or overhand punches which are a necessity in the clinch

And like ronin i too would like to see the clips of power knockouts, because to be honest wing chun is not the first chinese art i think of when i think about power knockout systems, but would love to see it as im always willing to learn :)


Maybe someone else will help your quest, not me :D

[Frost]

Maybe someone else will help your quest, not me :D

thats fine you asked so i answered :)

[k gledhill]

thats fine you asked so i answered :)


yeah tedious Frost...

[sanjuro_ronin]

yeah tedious Frost...

Someone telling you to "put your money where your mouth is" is not trolling dude.
You wanna shut up Frost for good?
Show him a clip of a WC guy putting the beats on a trained thai boxer or MMA guy.
You'll notice he never gives Alan Orr and 'guff"....

[k gledhill]

Someone telling you to "put your money where your mouth is" is not trolling dude.
You wanna shut up Frost for good?
Show him a clip of a WC guy putting the beats on a trained thai boxer or MMA guy.
You'll notice he never gives Alan Orr and 'guff"....

I could care less about Frost, I am secure enough with my own abilities not to have to run out to the gym and try and knock a guy out so Frost likes me :rolleyes:

[sanjuro_ronin]

I could care less about Frost, I am secure enough with my own abilities not to have to run out to the gym and try and knock a guy out so Frost likes me :rolleyes:

You're no fun.

[Vajramusti]

Sanjuro used to do some Moy Yat wing chun, Frost does not do wing chun and KG used to do Victor Kan wc now is affiliated with PB-vt. I dont do and don't care to do what any of what the threesome currently do.No reflections on their choices which I imagine might work for them.

I am a long time wing chun person from a substantial line and am familiar with many grapple-rs and MT clinches though they are not the same .

Of course I could make a stupid mistake if I am not alert. But my wing chun is fairly internalized and spontaneous and can adjust to other folks working on a clinch or choke. We go round and round with the same issues which come in cycles.

I don't speak for other people's wing chun. I am comfortable playing my (wc based_ game) against others including non WC folks.

Knowing something about "Southern arts" is bot the same as understanding wing chun.

Cheers, joy chaudhuri

[WC1277]

and yet you cant resisit posting on the threads and implying you know something special and have access to the real chun :)

And who said i never did any wing chun not me....

And yet he and I and others come from a line that does a "chun" that as far as I know, none have been able to discredit 'physically' whom have "equivalent WC knowledge".....and I would be humble enough to state that someone has if I was aware of it...

And Frost, no, you haven't stated clearly if and whom you do WC with...

[Vajramusti]

and yet you cant resisit posting on the threads and implying you know something special and have access to the real chun :)

And who said i never did any wing chun not me....
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cannot resist posting? (Snide remark)Not quite true. I post sometimes when I think that a gross inaccuracy
about decent Ip Man wing chun shows up. Pride and loyalty to what one does and also some things that appear to be true are not necessarily bad virtues.

I have no illusions about changing Frost's opinions on wing chun- though I listen when he says something about grappling. sanjuro's questions are sometimes interesting and sometimes repetitious but fair..And I post also at times to possibly learn something that strikes my wc curiosity such as what the late Ng Chan did.Resulted ina nice exchange.I enjoyed David P's comments on WSL when he is quoted. And although my views on wing chun are different from Hendrik,, I have enjoyed some of his posts on snake and crane and also directions of vectors

I am interested in the details of a broad range of MAs and CMAs- but rarely is there much 0n the KFO forums

joy chaudhuri

[Ali. R]

I see nothing arrogant about Joy’s replies, just take him at face value and you can’t go wrong with what he says, and to disregard him in that way you would only be losing out.

That’s a d@mn shame; you guys don’t have a clue on what you have here on this form, sad, very sad…

[Frost]

And yet he and I and others come from a line that does a "chun" that as far as I know, none have been able to discredit 'physically' whom have "equivalent WC knowledge".....and I would be humble enough to state that someone has if I was aware of it...

And Frost, no, you haven't stated clearly if and whom you do WC with...

Nope I have stated if I do wing chun, if I have ever done wing chun, but does it really matter?

I could have done it for 2 weeks, 2 months, 2 years or 20 years the response would probably be the same,
Wing chun spread wide and far and very uneven, only a few got the real deal from yip man, the inference here is of course, (buy whomever is saying it be it Joy or Kevin or spenser ir any number of other people) that my teacher did get the real wing chun yours didn’t so it doesn’t matter how long you trained and with whom because you dont get it
(this kind of talk by Kevin is the thing that drew me to this wing chun forum and made me post in the first place lol so blame him)
The funny thing is everyone who says this seems to have found the real deal in terms of teachers: amazing that so few actually got yip mans skills yet so many seem to have been trained by those few

Having said that I’d like to apologise to Joy, whatever I feel about his writing style he is entitled to his opinion and its his style we are talking about not mine so sniping is uncalled for. Sorry Joy

But it still comes down to this, there are no clips from anyone showing their version of special wing chun in action against a real opponent, we get demos like at the martial arts expo Spencer went to, we get chi sao demos and lots of talk about scientific this and that but nothing to show it in use, that is all im asking for, if you care so much about wing chun that you spend hours talking about it why not simply post a clip of what you mean, not a compliant clip, but a real hard sparring clip (phil has done this and it was good to see some of the stuff he talked about in action) if you don’t care and couldn’t give 2 sh*ts about my opinion fine

Oh and once again sorry Joy it was uncalled for

[Vajramusti]

Nope I have stated if I do wing chun, if I have ever done wing chun, but does it really matter?

I could have done it for 2 weeks, 2 months, 2 years or 20 years the response would probably be the same,
Wing chun spread wide and far and very uneven, only a few got the real deal from yip man, the inference here is of course, (buy whomever is saying it be it Joy or Kevin or spenser ir any number of other people) that my teacher did get the real wing chun yours didn’t so it doesn’t matter how long you trained and with whom because you dont get it
(this kind of talk by Kevin is the thing that drew me to this wing chun forum and made me post in the first place lol so blame him)
The funny thing is everyone who says this seems to have found the real deal in terms of teachers: amazing that so few actually got yip mans skills yet so many seem to have been trained by those few

Having said that I’d like to apologise to Joy, whatever I feel about his writing style he is entitled to his opinion and its his style we are talking about not mine so sniping is uncalled for. Sorry Joy

But it still comes down to this, there are no clips from anyone showing their version of special wing chun in action against a real opponent, we get demos like at the martial arts expo Spencer went to, we get chi sao demos and lots of talk about scientific this and that but nothing to show it in use, that is all im asking for, if you care so much about wing chun that you spend hours talking about it why not simply post a clip of what you mean, not a compliant clip, not a real hard sparring clip (phil has done this and it was good to see some of the stuff he talked about in action) if you don’t care and couldn’t give 2 sh*ts about my opinion fine

Oh and once again sorry Joy it was uncalled for
-------------------------------------------------------
No problem Frost. Thank you very much and let's move on.
I do not intentionally put any well established martial activity down and I am a long time student of the martial arts of several societies- East and West. No claims as an authority.On a wing chun forum I mostly talk about wing chun-my core style. What i do may not be and probably isn't for every one. But If I did not think that what I did was pretty good- I wouldn't do it.

Good skill development of any kind takes hours , months and years as is well known.As for me- wing chun daily since 1976 and other arts before that.

Many drop Ip Man's name at the drop of a hat. But it would be good to try and make good estimates for one self anyway, about how much actual time various wing chun sifus actually spent with Ip Man.It might surprise folks.

I am not into any kind of missionary work of any kind including wing chun- we each live with the consequences of our own decisions.

I do understand that without meeting someone and/or seeing a video about actual application it is not easy to accept things at face value. I don't make videos and don't even have a video camera.

I was asked to do an article recently showing a couple of practical applications of a couple of wing chun motions. They are snapshots not videos- and the article should be out about late July. I will give the citation at that time.

I do try to minimize my participation on the net- but I stick around here and there out of curiosity
about what is going on- a form of chi sao- if you will -to get a sense of the pulse of what is there.

BTW I am surprised that on the MMA forum there is not much discussion of Cain Velasquez defeating Silva. Cain was a superbly dedicated grappler at my University. he made one mistake in his previous Santos fight.He had a stiff hand guard against a head striker.But mistakes happen.He will keep developing and may do well against Santos next time..

Whatever my style of writing may be- I try not to make ad hominem put downs in forum discussions.
But discussion of facts can seem personal at times.

Again, thanks for your last post.

joy chaudhuri

[Frost]

-------------------------------------------------------
No problem Frost. Thank you very much and let's move on.
I do not intentionally put any well established martial activity down and I am a long time student of the martial arts of several societies- East and West. No claims as an authority.On a wing chun forum I mostly talk about wing chun-my core style. What i do may not be and probably isn't for every one. But If I did not think that what I did was pretty good- I wouldn't do it.

Good skill development of any kind takes hours , months and years as is well known.As for me- wing chun daily since 1976 and other arts before that.

Many drop Ip Man's name at the drop of a hat. But it would be good to try and make good estimates for one self anyway, about how much actual time various wing chun sifus actually spent with Ip Man.It might surprise folks.

I am not into any kind of missionary work of any kind including wing chun- we each live with the consequences of our own decisions.

I do understand that without meeting someone and/or seeing a video about actual application it is not easy to accept things at face value. I don't make videos and don't even have a video camera.

I was asked to do an article recently showing a couple of practical applications of a couple of wing chun motions. They are snapshots not videos- and the article should be out about late July. I will give the citation at that time.

I do try to minimize my participation on the net- but I stick around here and there out of curiosity
about what is going on- a form of chi sao- if you will -to get a sense of the pulse of what is there.

BTW I am surprised that on the MMA forum there is not much discussion of Cain Velasquez defeating Silva. Cain was a superbly dedicated grappler at my University. he made one mistake in his previous Santos fight.He had a stiff hand guard against a head striker.But mistakes happen.He will keep developing and may do well against Santos next time..

Whatever my style of writing may be- I try not to make ad hominem put downs in forum discussions.
But discussion of facts can seem personal at times.

Again, thanks for your last post.

joy chaudhuri

Thank you Joy
Cain looked very dominant, at the moment its between him and santos who takes the title although when and if DC turns up in the UFC I honestly think he will take them all out, the combination of a OL calibre wrestler (which the UFC rarely see’s) with great angles and heavy hands is just scary
Getting back to Cain v Santos if Cain can as you say get past those hands his ground and pound would win him the fight, a big if as Santos has really good take down defence and his accuracy with the punches is a bit scary
But anyone who can make big foot look that bas has a real chance of getting the title back

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sanjuro used to do some Moy Yat wing chun, Frost does not do wing chun and KG used to do Victor Kan wc now is affiliated with PB-vt. I dont do and don't care to do what any of what the threesome currently do.No reflections on their choices which I imagine might work for them.

I am a long time wing chun person from a substantial line and am familiar with many grapple-rs and MT clinches though they are not the same .

Of course I could make a stupid mistake if I am not alert. But my wing chun is fairly internalized and spontaneous and can adjust to other folks working on a clinch or choke. We go round and round with the same issues which come in cycles.

I don't speak for other people's wing chun. I am comfortable playing my (wc based_ game) against others including non WC folks.

Knowing something about "Southern arts" is bot the same as understanding wing chun.

Cheers, joy chaudhuri

Yep, I did "some" Moy Yat like you like to put it.
And?
While doing WC I was able to USE it and use it very well and, this may seem odd, I have lots of respect for the MA of WC ( though I don't care much for the commercial version of said MA that is passed off as it).
I still keep many things "WC" from my time there.
In terms of southern arts though, I have put more time (and sweat and blood) into Hung Kuen and SPM over the last 8 years.
None of that changes the very valid criticisims that I or anyone else has of what is "mainstream" WC.
WC people do NOT spar enough, they do NOT fight enough, they spend far too much time on complaint drills and "patty-cake" chi sao.
And there is pleanty of video evidence of that.
GO to ANY WC demo or any WC demo clip and you will see pretty much what I just wrote above.
On THIS Forum we only have evidence of TWO schools fighting and sparring regularly and that is Alan Orr's and Phil's.
They put up clips of chi sao and of forms AND of fighting.
While others put up clips of anything BUT fighting.
Quite an interesting observation of what was developed to be a FIGHTING system.

[Sean66]

Hey, the clip I put up of my students has sparring in it.
We do lots of sparring and combat drills.
Also just did an exchange at a local mma school last night.
Took seven of my students up there and they had a great time mixing it up with some non-wing chun people.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hey, the clip I put up of my students has sparring in it.
We do lots of sparring and combat drills.
Also just did an exchange at a local mma school last night.
Took seven of my students up there and they had a great time mixing it up with some non-wing chun people.

Always good to hear.

[Frost]

Hey, the clip I put up of my students has sparring in it.
We do lots of sparring and combat drills.
Also just did an exchange at a local mma school last night.
Took seven of my students up there and they had a great time mixing it up with some non-wing chun people.

Honestly can’t remember seeing your sparring clips Sean but I don’t really spent that much time on this part of the forum (honest!), but your posts come across as well balanced and informed so I have no doubt you guys are training hard and having a blast, hope the experience sparring the MMA guys was fun :)

[TenTigers]

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1171968 wrote above.
On THIS Forum we only have evidence of TWO schools fighting and sparring regularly and that is Alan Orr's and Phil's.
They put up clips of chi sao and of forms AND of fighting.
While others put up clips of anything BUT fighting.
Quite an interesting observation of what was developed to be a FIGHTING system.[/QUOTE]

Alan Lee's NYC WC school also trains hard, spars hard, etc.
This school is the Kyokushin of Wing Chun!:D
I have seen people leave after one class....some even crying.
Well worth checking out.

[Wayfaring]

Hey, the clip I put up of my students has sparring in it.
We do lots of sparring and combat drills.
Also just did an exchange at a local mma school last night.
Took seven of my students up there and they had a great time mixing it up with some non-wing chun people.

You mean their heads didn't explode by compromising the purity of their street-fight-perfected chi sau by sport fighting?

Amazing. :D:D:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

Alan Lee's NYC WC school also trains hard, spars hard, etc.
This school is the Kyokushin of Wing Chun!:D
I have seen people leave after one class....some even crying.
Well worth checking out.

I don't think he posts here, does he?
Sounds like good old WC.

Thsi guy right?
http://www.wingchunnyc.com/index.php/videos/

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sounds like a guy I'd like to train under:
http://www.wingchunnyc.com/index.php/article/wing_chun_myths

[Robinhood]

The more experience you have in other arts the better, it gives you a reference for comparison and also gives idea of what you will experience from opponents.



Cheers

[sanjuro_ronin]

The more experience you have in other arts the better, it gives you a reference for comparison and also gives idea of what you will experience from opponents.



Cheers

On that we agree 100%, one does NOT have to stop doing WC or even cross-train.
What one does have to do is cross-TEST and adjust accordingly.

[Robinhood]

Testing is OK, having done the other arts is better, it gives you a better idea of what is coming because you have done it.


Cheers

[wingchunIan]

Sounds like a guy I'd like to train under:
http://www.wingchunnyc.com/index.php/article/wing_chun_myths

watched the videos on the web page. Definitely not my cup of tea and definitely not exactly rough and tumble.

[guy b.]

There is some light sparring with wing chun against various chinese MA in this entertaining clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIKDXZTwrKE&feature=related

[guy b.]

more of same guy doing chi sau/gor sau

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08-fHZDzr1Q&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzhD5sP78cc&feature=relmfu

[k gledhill]

more of same guy doing chi sau/gor sau

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08-fHZDzr1Q&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzhD5sP78cc&feature=relmfu

Jerry Yeung WSL line, has good moves ;)

[guy b.]

This (first clip) is an example of wing chun being used in sparring isn't it?

I'd be interested to hear what people think of it

[Frost]

only flicked through it as its 45min long in a language i dont understand lol

but the sparring seemed to be very light, no real contact and stopped when it got into the clinch and restarted, looks like they were having fun but without a lot more contact it would be hard to see how their skills hold up under pressure

Maybe i missed something but i didnt see anyone take a hard shot or even look in trouble of taking one, without that its hard to judge them (at least for me)

if i missed this part of the clip my apologies

[guy b.]

there are bits of action at 21 min, 24 min, 25 min, 26 min, 35 min, 40-42 min

Obviously it isn't going to be a fight to the ko with extended grappling because it is supposed to be a friendly challenge and they are guests of the Hsing Yi people. But I think Jerry and Philip give a fairly good idea of what wing chun looks like in a genuine unstructured scuffle from these exchanges. The Mongolian trailer at the end looks good as well, hope it goes onto youtube.

[guy b.]

In fact here it is, looks great

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=EDm8ysDS6Ps

[guy b.]

Maybe i missed something but i didnt see anyone take a hard shot or even look in trouble of taking one, without that its hard to judge them (at least for me)

if i missed this part of the clip my apologies

There are certainly a few hard shots thrown when tempers flare a bit

[Frost]

In fact here it is, looks great

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=EDm8ysDS6Ps

nice cheers, love how they get more injuries and contact from the wrestling than they did in the last episode

those mongols are built like brick outhouses lol

[guy b.]

You are always going to get more contact and injury in wrestling than in striking sparring simply because you can't train all out striking very often without destroying your body, which is counter productive.

You don't need to see a no limits fight to get an idea of what something looks like in an unscripted situation

[Sean66]

Thank you, guy b.

Very good point, and one that many ignore.

[Frost]

You are always going to get more contact and injury in wrestling than in striking sparring simply because you can't train all out striking very often without destroying your body, which is counter productive.

You don't need to see a no limits fight to get an idea of what something looks like in an unscripted situation

maybe not but without regular contact to keep thinks honest you end up with...well some of the demos we see

that's where good safety equipment comes in, if you are not wearing gloves and using mouth guards in your sparring regularly chances are its not very practical

[guy b.]

This is an example of moving the boundaries when provided with what you were previously asking for.

Here is some wing chun free form sparring. Make of it what you will.

You can either continue to moan that there are no clips of wing chun practicing in the way you want or you can talk about the style, its approach and how it looks in an unscripted situation as amply illustrated in the clip.

[guy b.]

For example here you can see how a wing chun player moves, how they project force without arm bridge contact, and the strategy of simultaneous interception and attack that the style is known for. Why not talk about that?

Isn't this a kung fu forum rather than the bullshido forum?

[Frost]

This is an example of moving the boundaries when provided with what you were previously asking for.

Here is some wing chun free form sparring. Make of it what you will.

You can either continue to moan that there are no clips of wing chun practicing in the way you want or you can talk about the style, its approach and how it looks in an unscripted situation as amply illustrated in the clip.

actually the boundaries i dont think are moved, i asked for a hard sparring clip, where people are in fear of getting hit

But you are right it is more than we normally see and i thank you for posting it

[guy b.]

There was fear of getting hit in the last scuffle where one of the main Hsing Yi or Ba Gua guys fought Jerry. He was very keen to keep face in front of students and so came on fairly hard. Fear of one sort or another for both participants.

All I have read on this forum over the last few days is people criticizing chi sau clips because they are not free form, unscripted sparring. Well here is some. Talk about that rather than what you want to see in an ideal world.

[guy b.]

In the Mongolian wrestling program we don't see grappling with full strength and resistance and we don't see grappling to submission on the ground (never seen in Mongolian wrestling). Why is this ok but the Hsing Yi program not ok?

[Frost]

There was fear of getting hit in the last scuffle where one of the main Hsing Yi or Ba Gua guys fought Jerry. He was very keen to keep face in front of students and so came on fairly hard. Fear of one sort or another for both participants.

All I have read on this forum over the last few days is people criticizing chi sau clips because they are not free form, unscripted sparring. Well here is some. Talk about that rather than what you want to see in an ideal world.

Well to be far we can find lots of chi sao clips, you have to find a documentry in chinesae to find sparring clips, and then it is ligght contact

But to answer you on the final clip here are my observations:

As the fight went on he seemed to move away from his initial simultaneous attacks and defensiv s and become more defensive then attacking, looking more like a boxer would by throwing jab and crosses and only padding down attacks

He also moved backwards alot sometimes with good angles, sometimes just to escape and his head was held back and high as he threw his punches, a beginner mistake when contact is allowed which takes power away from the shots and opens you up to getting hit more not less,

would you consider this moving backwards in a straight line, being light on the feet and throwing jabs and crosses to the body to be an example of good wing chun then and how it should look under a little pressure (and it was little pressure there was no real contact even when they both got mad)

[Frost]

In the Mongolian wrestling program we don't see grappling with full strength and resistance and we don't see grappling to submission on the ground (never seen in Mongolian wrestling). Why is this ok but the Hsing Yi program not ok?

Yes we do see full strength and resistance in the wrestling clip within the rules they comepte under, hence they guy got his face bruised as it hit the floor, what makes you say we dont? they competed under rules at the end in an open competition didnt they:confused:

you see they drilling throws and grips and then sparring and entering competitions where they are thrown with full force

You are the one changing the goal posts now, i dont say the hsingi programme was bad because we didnt see ground work it was a stand up only fight correct? clinch is part of stand up and to be fair was allowed in the last fight they in the others they didnt, but thats not my main concern my main concern is that as a pure sand up only programme their was no contact what so ever within the context of what most consider a sparring or fighting contest

the wrestling contests looked exactly how a wrestling contest would where no ground work is allowed, thee hsingi clips looked nothing like a real stand up sparring session let alone a real stand up competition

[Happy Tiger]

I admit, with some exceptions VT is slow these days to invest in lose, which is so important for any fighting method to stay relevant. Even the sacred Gracie jiu jitsu has had to eat mat to stay current with a format it basically created. The worst training injury the striking arts hardly think about is cauliflower ear!!!. Since getting into ground mode, I've had to drain my ears twice now!

[guy b.]

As the fight went on he seemed to move away from his initial simultaneous attacks and defensiv s and become more defensive then attacking, looking more like a boxer would by throwing jab and crosses and only padding down attacks

This is the last fight, 40-42 min. He is attacking and defending simultaneously throughout via his line of attack and the way he uses his structure. Didn't you see this?


He also moved backwards alot sometimes with good angles, sometimes just to escape and his head was held back and high as he threw his punches, a beginner mistake when contact is allowed which takes power away from the shots and opens you up to getting hit more not less

Contact was allowed in this fight and I didn't see the wing chun guy getting hit much. In wing chun the spinal posture is an intrinsic part of the power generation method, not detrimental to it. It seems you are criticizing wing chun for not being western boxing. This is a tautology.


would you consider this moving backwards in a straight line, being light on the feet and throwing jabs and crosses to the body to be an example of good wing chun then and how it should look under a little pressure (and it was little pressure there was no real contact even when they both got mad)

This is an example of how wing chun looks in a fight.

[guy b.]

Yes we do see full strength and resistance in the wrestling clip within the rules they comepte under, hence they guy got his face bruised as it hit the floor, what makes you say we dont? they competed under rules at the end in an open competition didnt they

Only the visitors are using much strength. The actual Mongolian wrestlers are taking it lightly as you would expect because it is easy for them and they are making a tv program, not grappling in a life threatening situation or in a comp against good opposition.


You are the one changing the goal posts now, i dont say the hsingi programme was bad because we didnt see ground work it was a stand up only fight correct? clinch is part of stand up and to be fair was allowed in the last fight they in the others they didnt

Why is it ok to limit a fight to "stand up only" but not ok to limit a fight to "stand up but no clinching? Both are limited. By the same token I could say that submissions are a part of grappling and in a grappling only fight we should have seen submissions. Why aren't you demanding to see some?


my main concern is that as a pure sand up only programme their was no contact what so ever within the context of what most consider a sparring or fighting contest

That's because it isn't possible to do wing chun (and probably hsing yi) with gloves on. Conversely it isn't possible to do the things people in rings do with gloves on when you aren't wearing them without breaking your hands. This is why traditional muay thai and bando do not look like K1 kickboxing.


the wrestling contests looked exactly how a wrestling contest would where no ground work is allowed, thee hsingi clips looked nothing like a real stand up sparring session let alone a real stand up competition

Have you seen many wing chun vs hsing yi stand up fights? How do you know what a real wing chun vs hsing yi fight looks like?

A "real" stand up competition is a real competition, not a real fight.

[sanjuro_ronin]

A "real" stand up competition is a real competition, not a real fight.

In a real fight (one assumes you means a street fight) we have one person ( or more) trying to beat the crap out of another person ( or more).
There is the possibility of weapons in a real fight and the possibility of multiple attackers.
In a competitive fight we have one person trying to beat the crap out of another.
The key differences are the lack of weapons and multiple attacker possibilities.
There is also the issue that most competitions have rules that LEVEL the paying field ( help/benefit the "weaker" fighter).
There is also the issue that in a competitive fight you are almost certainly face a trained fighter which is typically NOT the case in a "real fight".

Of course since the vast majority of systems do NOT train to handle weapons on a regular basis, lets remove that from the equation.
Also, if a person can't beat ONE guy, the chances of beating more than one are far less.

So, what is your point again?

[Frost]

Have you seen many wing chun vs hsing yi stand up fights? How do you know what a real wing chun vs hsing yi fight looks like?

A "real" stand up competition is a real competition, not a real fight.

id imagine they would actually make contact and not just slap each other?

as for the grappling the mongals tried as hard as they needed to to win, they didnt hold back anything they didnt pull their trips or throws they followed them though will full force, they looked exactly how they would (and did) in the final competition clips, ie they made hard contact, they grip fought and they threw there opponents for real, i dont know any fight competition where the opponents would be slapping each other like that do you?

[Frost]

This is the last fight, 40-42 min. He is attacking and defending simultaneously throughout via his line of attack and the way he uses his structure. Didn't you see this?



Contact was allowed in this fight and I didn't see the wing chun guy getting hit much. In wing chun the spinal posture is an intrinsic part of the power generation method, not detrimental to it. It seems you are criticizing wing chun for not being western boxing. This is a tautology.



This is an example of how wing chun looks in a fight.

nope he started out doing both at the same time, then started moving back and either just parring, or moving in and out throwing jabs

nope im criticizing it for having no contact of any real type, the fact you do think that's a contact level of note is telling

and you cant do what he was doing in those clips with gloves, no straight punches, no palm deflections...none of it can be done with gloves?

[guy b.]

In a real fight (one assumes you means a street fight) we have one person ( or more) trying to beat the crap out of another person ( or more).
There is the possibility of weapons in a real fight and the possibility of multiple attackers.
In a competitive fight we have one person trying to beat the crap out of another.
The key differences are the lack of weapons and multiple attacker possibilities.
There is also the issue that most competitions have rules that LEVEL the paying field ( help/benefit the "weaker" fighter).
There is also the issue that in a competitive fight you are almost certainly face a trained fighter which is typically NOT the case in a "real fight".

Of course since the vast majority of systems do NOT train to handle weapons on a regular basis, lets remove that from the equation.
Also, if a person can't beat ONE guy, the chances of beating more than one are far less.

So, what is your point again?

The point is that Frost doesn't know what a "real" stand up sparring session between hsing yi and wing chun looks like because competitions are competitions (and so are defined by the limits set). Why are we supposed to give a pass only to things looking like western boxing based gloved striking competitions? These are as limited as any other competitive testing scenario

[guy b.]

id imagine they would actually make contact and not just slap each other?

as for the grappling the mongals tried as hard as they needed to to win, they didnt hold back anything they didnt pull their trips or throws they followed them though will full force, they looked exactly how they would (and did) in the final competition clips, ie they made hard contact, they grip fought and they threw there opponents for real, i dont know any fight competition where the opponents would be slapping each other like that do you?

It is common practice to spar bare fisted striking systems with open or weakly closed fists. This is what people normally do unless they have reason to really fight

[guy b.]

nope he started out doing both at the same time, then started moving back and either just parring, or moving in and out throwing jabs

Doing both of what at the same time time? He was attacking and defending simultaneously throughout. I'm sorry you can only see the most obvious manifestations of this.


nope im criticizing it for having no contact of any real type, the fact you do think that's a contact level of note is telling

I don't think I ever said this was anything but light contact. The hsing yi guy came on hard in terms of speed of movement and the way he attempted to impose his structure but he was relatively polite with the contact level and maintained accepted etiquette for this kind of situation. This is how gloveless sparring happens. How else would you suggest they do it without having an actual fight?


and you cant do what he was doing in those clips with gloves, no straight punches, no palm deflections...none of it can be done with gloves?

With gloves it is not possible to fight in that way, correct. Everything changes with gloves, and the bigger they are the more it changes. What western boxing does is to take the way people punch with gloves on and light spar/drill in that way, building back to hard levels of contact which are safe with gloves but unsafe without. This is a mistake based upon a category error.

Chinese arts never put gloves on and so the methods they drill and light to medium spar are appropriate for full power usage when the need arises.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The point is that Frost doesn't know what a "real" stand up sparring session between hsing yi and wing chun looks like because competitions are competitions (and so are defined by the limits set). Why are we supposed to give a pass only to things looking like western boxing based gloved striking competitions? These are as limited as any other competitive testing scenario

Well, it makes sense that WC and Hsing yi would look far more like WC and Hsing yi in a competitive fight where the rules cater to the style ( I of course mean a WC fight with Wc "rules" as an example) than they would look like their respective styles in an "all out street fight" with NO rules.
Competitive venues give the ideal format to "show off" your respective style.
Boxing never looks as much as boxing SHOULD look like other than in the ring.
Same goes for Judo, wrestling, Muay Thai or any other combative system.
So, WC or Hsing yi would look as much as they could look like their respective systems in a competitive venue tailored to their style, more so than in a " real fight".

[Vajramusti]

Boxing never looks as much as boxing SHOULD look like other than in the ring.
Same goes for Judo, wrestling, Muay Thai or any other combative system.
So, WC or Hsing yi would look as much as they could look like their respective systems in a competitive venue tailored to their style, more so than in a " real fight".
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wing chun used against other styles wont "look" like wing chun because one "adjusts" in dealing with opponents. The well trained observer should see the attributes and principles at work.

joy chaudhuri

[sanjuro_ronin]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wing chun used against other styles wont "look" like wing chun because one "adjusts" in dealing with opponents. The well trained observer should see the attributes and principles at work.

joy chaudhuri

That is my point Joy, it won't look like WC, BUT in a competitive venue "designed" for WC, it should.

[k gledhill]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wing chun used against other styles wont "look" like wing chun because one "adjusts" in dealing with opponents. The well trained observer should see the attributes and principles at work.

joy chaudhuri

Speak for yourself.

[Ali. R]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wing chun used against other styles wont "look" like wing chun because one "adjusts" in dealing with opponents. The well trained observer should see the attributes and principles at work.

joy chaudhuri

If one could adjust to their opponent when fighting and while executing the attributes and principles of this system, when it’s the very structures of this system that helps promote the energies that develops the attributes, and if the structures are not present, how could the principle of this system come to life or be seen as correct principles?

I was told that you are as only as good as your stance which is all structurally based as well as of the forms themselves, if one could adjust to their opponent while pressured and bring forth the attributes and principles; then why couldn’t one adjust his structures through timing and positioning as well (look like wing chun) when under pressure?

[Vajramusti]

That is my point Joy, it won't look like WC, BUT in a competitive venue "designed" for WC, it should.
------------------------------------------------

Surely

joy chaudhuri

[Vajramusti]

Speak for yourself.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

??? I was not speaking for you!!! It's ok. No worries.

joy chaudhuri

[Ali. R]

Joy,

Could you help me understand; why all of the years of one’s training dealing with structures and structure awareness would not keep one’s wing chun recognizable, and why do schools constantly preach, structure, structure, structure when it’s just going to go right out the window when under pressure away?

And what does the concept of positioning and timing promotes/supplements if not the execution of good structures (look like wing chun).

[sanjuro_ronin]

Speak for yourself.

Show me text book WC recognized by all as WC VS a skilled fighter from a different system.
I don't recall every seeing any...
I recall the critiques leveled at Alan and Phil that their guys WC didn't LOOK like WC.
That I do recall.

[k gledhill]

Show me text book WC recognized by all as WC VS a skilled fighter from a different system.
I don't recall every seeing any...
I recall the critiques leveled at Alan and Phil that their guys WC didn't LOOK like WC.
That I do recall.

Oh dear, rattled a cage have we :D

[k gledhill]

Joy,

Could you help me understand; why all of the years of one’s training dealing with structures and structure awareness would not keep one’s wing chun recognizable, and why do schools constantly preach, structure, structure, structure when it’s just going to go right out the window when under pressure away?

And what does the concept of positioning and timing promotes/supplements if not the execution of good structures (look like wing chun).

Perhaps its because they spend so much time in an arm pressure, sensitive environment.
When faced with no pressure unless they chase arms, they quickly revert to a basic form of kick boxing vt with a lead leg chain punch fiasco, or a basic stance "rabbit in the headlights" response , a view shared by many.
Wheres their VT function ? back in a misunderstood drill. ;)

Step away from the drill and offer your arm like a carrot ....then the fun begins.

Like Charlie Brown trying to kick the football Lucy promises to hold out for him, kids game.... ; )

[Vajramusti]

Joy,

Could you help me understand; why all of the years of one’s training dealing with structures and structure awareness would not keep one’s wing chun recognizable, and why do schools constantly preach, structure, structure, structure when it’s just going to go right out the window when under pressure away?

And what does the concept of positioning and timing promotes/supplements if not the execution of good structures (look like wing chun).
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Ali- some distinctions are important. An important one is the distinction between principles and techniques.

1. Structure, distance, position etc are principles when defined in a wing chun way. Other styles will have different structures. Shotokan, boxing etc wont have the yee gee kinm yeung ma. And the chain of power and the engines will be different. Shotokan will use the hips more, boxing-the shoulder more than wing chun.An experienced wing chun person will recognize wing chun principles in the actions of a well trained wing chun person. Two handedness,
both sides balanced, gravitational path, concepts of timing etc.

2. Then there are however wing chun motions- like bong, tan, fok, lan, wing chun kuen, pak, lan, gaan,jam,
lop etc. Then there are two handed motions- gaan-jam, pak tan, qwan etc.When they are being
practiced for individual development they are clearly recognizable.

3.But when you apply them with contact against a live person or even a dummy you are ADJUSTING
to the contact and the contact person's structure etc within space and time allowances.Therefore the motions wont look exactly the same but the same principles are at work.

Thus the basic wc punch involves full extension- but in application it will usually not be a full extension. A full extension makes it susceptible to arm bars and breaks.If the arm/elbow structure is connected to a good body structure- the punch could travel 10 inches or 1 inch or even zero.

I hope that I am answering your question.Attempting to do so in good faith.

Regards, joy

[Wayfaring]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wing chun used against other styles wont "look" like wing chun because one "adjusts" in dealing with opponents. The well trained observer should see the attributes and principles at work.

joy chaudhuri

I agree. Most think that the external hand appearances of tan, bong, fuk ARE wing chun. They are just the wing chun hands, and sometimes the adjustments or the environments can obscure the look of the hand shapes.

The real attributes and principles like centerline, structure (formula + 10 bright points for us), movement concepts are really the essence. Those don't change in varying circumstances, including cage fighting.

[Wayfaring]

Perhaps its because they spend so much time in an arm pressure, sensitive environment.
When faced with no pressure unless they chase arms, they quickly revert to a basic form of kick boxing vt with a lead leg chain punch fiasco, or a basic stance "rabbit in the headlights" response , a view shared by many.
Wheres their VT function ? back in a misunderstood drill. ;)

Yes if you chi sau leaning on people it causes distortions.


Step away from the drill and offer your arm like a carrot ....then the fun begins.

I think Garrett Gee puts it "chi sau is earned not offered", which to me says that if you want to get to a square stance double-bridge contact position with me you have to earn it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Oh dear, rattled a cage have we :D

My kung fu is to strong for cages !
;)

[guy b.]

Well, it makes sense that WC and Hsing yi would look far more like WC and Hsing yi in a competitive fight where the rules cater to the style ( I of course mean a WC fight with Wc "rules" as an example) than they would look like their respective styles in an "all out street fight" with NO rules.
Competitive venues give the ideal format to "show off" your respective style.
Boxing never looks as much as boxing SHOULD look like other than in the ring.
Same goes for Judo, wrestling, Muay Thai or any other combative system.
So, WC or Hsing yi would look as much as they could look like their respective systems in a competitive venue tailored to their style, more so than in a " real fight".

Your reply doesn't follow from what Frost said originally:


the wrestling contests looked exactly how a wrestling contest would where no ground work is allowed, thee hsingi clips looked nothing like a real stand up sparring session let alone a real stand up competition

Frost doesn't know what a "real" stand up session involving hsing yi and wing chun looks like. He is dismissing it on the basis that it doesn't look like boxing or kick boxing

[k gledhill]

Yes if you chi sau leaning on people it causes distortions.

I think Garrett Gee puts it "chi sau is earned not offered", which to me says that if you want to get to a square stance double-bridge contact position with me you have to earn it.

If you get to a ygkym stance and double bridge contact position with me, your a student of mine and we arent fighting/sparring, we are in a mutual exchange program :D

Chi-sao is a multi-faceted drill. We dont fight with two arms extended like chi-sao.

[Frost]

Doing both of what at the same time time? He was attacking and defending simultaneously throughout. I'm sorry you can only see the most obvious manifestations of this.



I don't think I ever said this was anything but light contact. The hsing yi guy came on hard in terms of speed of movement and the way he attempted to impose his structure but he was relatively polite with the contact level and maintained accepted etiquette for this kind of situation. This is how gloveless sparring happens. How else would you suggest they do it without having an actual fight?



With gloves it is not possible to fight in that way, correct. Everything changes with gloves, and the bigger they are the more it changes. What western boxing does is to take the way people punch with gloves on and light spar/drill in that way, building back to hard levels of contact which are safe with gloves but unsafe without. This is a mistake based upon a category error.

Chinese arts never put gloves on and so the methods they drill and light to medium spar are appropriate for full power usage when the need arises.

id have them put gloves on...failing that id have them making enough contact to the body that it keeps things honest, because this is slap sparring which builds bad habits and nothing like sparring any fighter would recognise
really they never put gloves on? Where is david Ross when you need him... ill tell that to my CLF and bakmei teacher the next time he puts on the 14oz boxing gloves or the fingerless MMA gloves and starts sparring.....

[Frost]

It is common practice to spar bare fisted striking systems with open or weakly closed fists. This is what people normally do unless they have reason to really fight

and i classic reason for wearing gloves,

[Ali. R]

Structure, distance, position etc are principles when defined in a wing chun way. Other styles will have different structures. Shotokan, boxing etc wont have the yee gee kinm yeung ma. And the chain of power and the engines will be different. Shotokan will use the hips more, boxing-the shoulder more than wing chun.


You’re saying because those system uses different energies and kinetic that the structures of this system couldn’t accommodate their offensive and defensive fighting lines while attempting to use proper structures through timing and positioning, this is even more interesting.


Wing chun used against other styles won’t "look" like wing chun because one "adjusts" in dealing with opponents. The well trained observer should see the attributes and principles at work.

You cleared this up for me: “won’t look like wing chun”, to……


Therefore the motions won’t look exactly the same but the same principles are at work..

So, it would look like wing chun but not “exactly the same”, because it’s within the structures that brings the energies to life and it’s the energies that would develop the attributes/concepts; that will able one to see it’s developed principles through structures/energies.

OK, I think I follow you.


I hope that I am answering your question.
Attempting to do so in good faith...

I wish nothing ill towards you dear brother, so may both of our faith stay intact,
just a little confuesd.

Regards,

[Frost]

Your reply doesn't follow from what Frost said originally:



Frost doesn't know what a "real" stand up session involving hsing yi and wing chun looks like. He is dismissing it on the basis that it doesn't look like boxing or kick boxing

nope im dismissing it on the grounds since no contact is being made it cant really be called sparring, play fighting maybe but not sparring

[Frost]

Show me text book WC recognized by all as WC VS a skilled fighter from a different system.
I don't recall every seeing any...
I recall the critiques leveled at Alan and Phil that their guys WC didn't LOOK like WC.
That I do recall.

and if i remember rightly the only voice praising them was knifefighter......

and asking kevin for those clips...come on! :eek:

[Ali. R]

Perhaps its because they spend so much time in an arm pressure, sensitive environment.
When faced with no pressure unless they chase arms, they quickly revert to a basic form of kick boxing vt with a lead leg chain punch fiasco, or a basic stance "rabbit in the headlights" response , a view shared by many.
Wheres their VT function ? back in a misunderstood drill. ;)

Step away from the drill and offer your arm like a carrot ....then the fun begins.

Like Charlie Brown trying to kick the football Lucy promises to hold out for him, kids game.... ; )

LMAO,

It’s like you’re reading my mind.

[sanjuro_ronin]

and if i remember rightly the only voice praising them was knifefighter......

and asking kevin for those clips...come on! :eek:

He wasn't right about everything but he was right in questioning why people that train in a fighting system AND promote it as a fighting system, don't fight.

[k gledhill]

He wasn't right about everything but he was right in questioning why people that train in a fighting system AND promote it as a fighting system, don't fight.

Some fight ;) When they do, the last thing on their mind is 'where is my camera' ?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Some fight ;) When they do, the last thing on their mind is 'where is my camera' ?

Yet that camera is around at other times...silly camera and its ninja skills.

[k gledhill]

LMAO,

It’s like you’re reading my mind.

Many go to class and chi-sao with pressure versus pressure for hours, year after year....
then they try to fight using this redundant pressure method.

If you understand the pitfalls of hand chasing its easy to use against a guy who has done it for years.

[GlennR]

and if i remember rightly the only voice praising them was knifefighter......

and asking kevin for those clips...come on! :eek:


He wasnt alone, i thought their stuff was fine

[Frost]

He wasnt alone, i thought their stuff was fine

well you would you dont have the real wing chun and have to mix it with thai boxing......:)

[YouKnowWho]

why people that train in a fighting system AND promote it as a fighting system, don't fight.

I love to borrow this quote. It's not that easy to find a short sentence that say everything.

[GlennR]

well you would you dont have the real wing chun and have to mix it with thai boxing......:)

Yeh i know, so im starting my own style called Wing Thai..... my sticky knees are amazing!!!! ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

I love to borrow this quote. It's not that easy to find a short sentence that say everything.

Please do and if ANYONE can answer that question, it'd be great!

Look, I have said it often, not everyone fights in a MA, nor should they.
Very few people do MA for the fighting.
BUT those that do AND promote their MA as a "fighting system" should fight or at least (since that are promoting it and have videos of them doing everything BUT fighting) show clips of them fighting, using said MA VS a trained, resiting fighter or AT LEAST some nice sparring sessions that show actual fighting.
You know, a couple of guys trying to beat on each other, that little thing that makes a martial art just that - MARTIAL.

[Frost]

Please do and if ANYONE can answer that question, it'd be great!

Look, I have said it often, not everyone fights in a MA, nor should they.
Very few people do MA for the fighting.
BUT those that do AND promote their MA as a "fighting system" should fight or at least (since that are promoting it and have videos of them doing everything BUT fighting) show clips of them fighting, using said MA VS a trained, resiting fighter or AT LEAST some nice sparring sessions that show actual fighting.
You know, a couple of guys trying to beat on each other, that little thing that makes a martial art just that - MARTIAL.

Crazy talk...on a side note can you imagine learning rugby from someone who never played the game at any level, who didnt have any clips of their students playing the game, but who said their way of paying rugby and training for it was the best.........

[Sean66]

At the end of this clip there are some of my students sparring. I know it's probably not enough for you guys, so I'll try to film some more this weekend.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSxkdhDP4Lw

By the way, my students did just fine in a recent exchange at a local mma school.

[k gledhill]

At the end of this clip there are some of my students sparring. I know it's probably not enough for you guys, so I'll try to film some more this weekend.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSxkdhDP4Lw

By the way, my students did just fine in a recent exchange at a local mma school.

What VT fighting ? never ;)

[Frost]

At the end of this clip there are some of my students sparring. I know it's probably not enough for you guys, so I'll try to film some more this weekend.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSxkdhDP4Lw

By the way, my students did just fine in a recent exchange at a local mma school.

Just watched a bit of it Sean, nice stuff and please dont take what we say personally, both Ronin and I know some on here do spar and fight and they tend to be the ones who dont post much,
From what i have seen those that actually teach guys to fight and spar know there's nothing really unique or special out there so dont tend to get caught up in those conversations

[sanjuro_ronin]

At the end of this clip there are some of my students sparring. I know it's probably not enough for you guys, so I'll try to film some more this weekend.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSxkdhDP4Lw

By the way, my students did just fine in a recent exchange at a local mma school.

Props to you dude.
Exceptions don't make the rule though, do they?

[sanjuro_ronin]

What VT fighting ? never ;)

Not according to your clips :p

[k gledhill]

Not according to your clips :p

I do the same stuff Sean does ....

[sanjuro_ronin]

I just want to make note that when I did WC we did SOME sparring (Under Nelson Chan) but it was controlled and we did more sparring (Under Sunny Tang) and it was more hard contact.
So, yes of course I know that some schools DO spar and even compete in full contact events.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I do the same stuff Sean does ....

So where are the clips of you guys sparring?
Not the chi sao sparring, but the one with gear and actually HITTING each other?
Honest question because I don't recall seeing any...

[k gledhill]

So where are the clips of you guys sparring?
Not the chi sao sparring, but the one with gear and actually HITTING each other?
Honest question because I don't recall seeing any...

You wont see any difference from Seans to mine, same ideas, movement, etc...

[sanjuro_ronin]

You wont see any difference from Seans to mine, same ideas, movement, etc...

Ok, but why don't you show it in all the clips that you've posted?
Honestly I don't recall any sparring in them, if I am wrong I apologize but I don't recall any.

[k gledhill]

Ok, but why don't you show it in all the clips that you've posted?
Honestly I don't recall any sparring in them, if I am wrong I apologize but I don't recall any.

There has been, in several, mixed in with other stuff. Oh well, cant help that.

[Frost]

There has been, in several, mixed in with other stuff. Oh well, cant help that.

could you repost them :)

[k gledhill]

could you repost them :)

You're so predictable, you know why I post so much dont you ? read my mind :)

[Frost]

You're so predictable, you know why I post so much dont you ? read my mind :)

i thought it was because you cared so much about the state of wing chun and wanted to show us all the proper way :)

And you know what they say a picture is worth a thousand words
But as usual I suspect we wont se anything from you but hey im an optimist!

[k gledhill]

i thought it was because you cared so much about the state of wing chun and wanted to show us all the proper way :)

And you know what they say a picture is worth a thousand words
But as usual I suspect we wont se anything from you but hey im an optimist!

Your telepathic abilities must be slipping :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

There has been, in several, mixed in with other stuff. Oh well, cant help that.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt since I am old and my memory sucks !
:D

That said, I think we both agree that NOT enough WC demo clips, or even instructional clips, show any fighting at all.
Personally I think that ALL MA video clips should follow the maxim of:
See it taught, See it fought.

[Frost]

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt since I am old and my memory sucks !
:D

That said, I think we both agree that NOT enough WC demo clips, or even instructional clips, show any fighting at all.
Personally I think that ALL MA video clips should follow the maxim of:
See it taught, See it fought.

im not that old and i have not seen any clips from kevin with sparring in......:)