Style Boundary

[YouKnowWho]

Should a

- longfist guy ignore boxing hook punch?
- SC guy ignore wrestling single leg or Judo hip throw?
- TKD guy ignore MT roundhouse kick?
- Aikido guy ignore eagle claw joint lock?

When my longfist teacher taught 戚門劍(chi men sword) in his workshop, he mentioned, "No Qi, not enough Qi, don't use Li". Will you be able to tell "what style does his 戚門劍 (chi men sword) is associated with?"

http://www.filmy.cvwp.info/movie.php?id=mMdf07n8Mh8

Does it make sense for a

- WC guy to start a "WC kick" thread?
- WC guy to start a "WC footwork" thread?
- Ninja guy to start a "Ninja Punch" thread?
- Ninja guy to start a "Ninja Armlock" thread?

The "style boundary" just bother me big time. Why can we just have general MA discussion instead? Am I "too open" or others are just "too closs"? What's your opinion on this?

[SPJ]

There are many ways to look at a "Style"

1. key use of jin/power

2. key tactics and strategy

---

In Ba Ji, we focus on kao jin. We would move in close to be able to kao the opponent.

In tai chi, we focus on chan si jin or silk reeling. We would close in at a certain angle to be able to stick and follow.

Since we need to be close in Ba Ji, we may use 6 openings to get close. Ding Bao Ti Shan Kua Chan.

Since we need to approach and follow the opponent in arms, steps and movements in Tai Chi, we have to rotate around our waist all the time. We use 5 steps to position and peng lu ji an to follow.

--

Thrusting steps/spearing steps in Ba Ji, soft/flexible in the waist in Tai chi---

--

styles do not have limits

but have focuses or specializations

--

:cool:

[Dale Dugas]

Being exposed to different arts over a long period of time has inculcated the concepts that are involved.

I can do anything, and will try anything when the time requires such action.

Who cares what you do when you fight. Here I am not talking about sport fighting but using your material for real.

I tell my students to practice as perfectly as they can in the Kwoon. Do what it takes to get out the situation and live to fight another day.

But no one is there to blow a whistle, or stop the fight if its real. Hence you need to be able to strike, throw, kick, punch in a multitude of manners and use them reflexively.

[David Jamieson]

Should a

- longfist guy ignore boxing hook punch?
- SC guy ignore wrestling single leg or Judo hip throw?
- TKD guy ignore MT roundhouse kick?
- Aikido guy ignore eagle claw joint lock?

When my longfist teacher taught 戚門劍(chi men sword) in his workshop, he mentioned, "No Qi, not enough Qi, don't use Li". Will you be able to tell "what style does his 戚門劍 (chi men sword) is associated with?"

http://www.filmy.cvwp.info/movie.php?id=mMdf07n8Mh8

Does it make sense for a

- WC guy to start a "WC kick" thread?
- WC guy to start a "WC footwork" thread?
- Ninja guy to start a "Ninja Punch" thread?
- Ninja guy to start a "Ninja Armlock" thread?

The "style boundary" just bother me big time. Why can we just have general MA discussion instead? Am I "too open" or others are just "too closs"? What's your opinion on this?


There are many boats on the sea. some are small with only a paddle, some are huge with mighty engines.

depending on which you are in determines what your perception of the sea is and your own boat is what gets your attention to keep it floating.

as time passes and effort is put forth, you start to care less about the boat, and more about the nature of the sea.

eventually, you abandon the boat and swim.

eventually you stop swimming and become the sea.


That's my analogy of it...and many other things. :)

[SPJ]

Style variants are headache. However, practice some core moves in each style.

After a while, it will come to you.

In the end, you would find there are more things in common.

For example, in ba ji stepping and arm/elbow movement look square but there are little circles in grinding steps and big circle in the waist.

Wai Fang Nei Yuan. Outside square inside circle.

In Tai Chi stepping are square but circles on the arm/elbow and waist.

Wai Yuan Nei Fang. Outside circle inside square.

We have the same body. but use it in a focused or specialized way.

----

In short, Ba Ji stepping and arm movements are straightforward.

Tai chi stepping and arm movements are circular or circuitous.

---

:cool:

[jimbob]

At the end of the day, how many different ways can there really be to move the body?

If you hit a blind man (not a nice thing to do by the way), could he tell you that you'd hit him with a choy lay fut punch or a long fist punch? If you picked him and dumped him on his head (also not a nice thing to do to a blind person), would he tell you he recognised you as a wrestler and not a shuai jiao person?

I've been knocked out by a Thai boxers knee to the head, and I've been knocked out by a Choy Lay Fut kick to the head. Both times, I GOT KNOCKED OUT! Both times I woke up and asked 'What happened?'. Both times, they were something hitting me in the head.

Does it really matter beyond making people feel different from one another? The differences between styles interest me only for the philosophies and attitudes they reveal about those styles, but technically - there are more similarities than anything else.

And when the $hit is hitting the fan and you're in the middle of a fight, who really cares?

[IronFist]

There are many ways to move the body.

Styles of MA are like styles of dance. They take specific movements and train them to become better at them and to set boundaries.

The Salsa is different from the Tango. They have different movements and different techniques.

A Salsa dancer cannot do the Salsa and claim he is doing the Tango.

Certain techniques belong to certain groups which are referred to as different styles of martial arts. You can often see someone doing some techniques and be able to tell if he is doing TKD, or WC, or Muay Thai, etc.

If a Muay Thai guy throws a Wing Chun straight blast, is it Muay Thai? No, because that technique is not claimed by Muay Thai.

But sometimes you find yourself in a situation where you might need to do something outside the boundaries of your style. Maybe the only thing that will fit through the little gap in your opponents defenses is a vertical fist punch. But you're a Muay Thai guy. What do you do? You throw a vertical fist punch.

This is why you should get as much experience as possible and then find out what works best for you.

And then train that way, because you're wasting your time as well as strengthening neural pathways that you will never use if you train different techniques than you use in a fight.

So to answer your question:


- longfist guy ignore boxing hook punch?

(I assume you mean "ignore" as in "don't bother learning that technique")

If he is studying longfist, then yes, ignore it because it is not a part of longfist.

If he wishes to expand himself as a martial artist, and if he believes that the hook technique will benefit him, then yes, he should train it.

He shouldn't "ignore" it from a defensive standpoint, though, as he may encounter it from an opponent.

[ginosifu]

YouKnowWho:

You are looking at this all the wrong way. Different Styles / Systems only provide ways for each person to be unique. Just like each indiviual person looks different on the outside, we are all the same under the skin.

All stylists have different entering strategies. Monkey stylist try to distract, scratch the eyes, grab the peaches etc. Hung Gar stylist are more direct and try to blast / break bones. Taiji stylist are a bit more sensitive and try to redirect energy into their technique.

However, they all end at the same place. Once you are close enough to grapple, then it is all about your ability to sense / grapple and throw.

Everyone is unique..... but fighting is the same...... does not matter what style you do.

ginosifu

[Matthew]

Does it make sense for a

- WC guy to start a "WC kick" thread?
- WC guy to start a "WC footwork" thread?
- Ninja guy to start a "Ninja Punch" thread?
- Ninja guy to start a "Ninja Armlock" thread?

The "style boundary" just bother me big time. Why can we just have general MA discussion instead? Am I "too open" or others are just "too closs"? What's your opinion on this?

Hi YouKnowWho, I think this is an interesting topic and with cross training becoming popular nowadays- how much is beneficial vs harmful?


In some context, I believe cross training can benefit perspective.
For example- any southern art that is momentum power based may have strong overlap with other southern arts (example the 5 families Hung, choy, li, fut, mok) who share similar principles enough to overlap.


I picture it like learning to play the viola after playing the violin. It wouldn't contradict your core learned principles- and would add perspective to the range of knowledge you have.




Maybe the Jack of all trades, master of none problem comes when there are notable differences

At my first school- it was a southern style that teaches never to lean back or tilt the body when kicking. The body always stayed vertical with gravity.

It would contradict this to go practice kicking where you need to lean the body away from the opponent- it would contradict a core principle.

I just imagine a concert pianist deciding to instead spend half of his time playing the trombone. He would be a great musician and have great perspective, but would not play piano as masterfully (fluidly, naturally, etc). If he didn't need to perform (compete? do self defense? is that a fair analogy?), then it might improve more facets of his life and his knowledge of music to diversify.


I do agree with you and think most schools are a too rigid about their styles, but if you strive to be a more generalist, then there are definitely teachers out there who are as open minded as you are about that perspective of martial arts practice.



At the end of the day- if the goal is self defense- I believe you have a split second to react and having contradicting fundamentals generate a slower response.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Over the many centuries that I have been in MA :D, I have have the privilege to train in a few different systems.
I have never "cross trained" per say, because I have always done "one at a time".
I have always viewed my self as a MA as opposed to a "kung fuist" or "karateka" or judoka" etc.
Doing different systems was a matter of necessity but it was the most rewarding experience as a MA, I was exposed to a fact that I would never have been if I hadn't of done various systems : ALL styles have something to offer and ALL styles in practical terms are "the same".
But would I recommend that for everyone?
Nope, not UNLESS the MARTIAL part of martial arts is important and if it is tan in that case it is a MUST.
See, the reality isn't that there are many styles, the reality is that there are only 3:
Striking, grappling and the combination of both.
All striking systems are basically the same, as are grappling.
They all have more in common than they have differences.
To say that a striker that has done 3 or 4 different striking systems is a "jack of all trades and master of none" is liek saying that a welder that is proficient in all welding is a "jack of all trades and master of none" because he doesn't JUST do TIG welding.

That is incorrect.

[MightyB]

Only a Ninja can stop another Ninja!!! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRMWLXEPfFo)

http://www.acidlogic.com/graphics/im_sho_kosugi.gif
- Sho Kasugi (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8J9CgLR75U)

[IronFist]

Only a Ninja can stop another Ninja!!! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRMWLXEPfFo)

http://www.acidlogic.com/graphics/im_sho_kosugi.gif
- Sho Kasugi (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8J9CgLR75U)

You spelled his name wrong :p

I know it's not the same movie, but I must've watched Ninja III: the Domination 50 times as a kid.

His sons competed in some of the Ninja Warrior tournaments (Sasuke) on G4.

[YouKnowWho]

YouKnowWho:

You are looking at this all the wrong way. Different Styles / Systems only provide ways for each person to be unique. Just like each indiviual person looks different on the outside, we are all the same under the skin.
"Wrong" in what way?

To train MA is to solve problems. Our problems are to deal with people from other styles and not from our own style. What's the chance that you have to fight smeone in street who happens to train the same style as you do?

When a new student comes to me on the first day, I will teach him how to defend and counter against a

- boxer's punch,
- MT guy's roundhouse kick,
- TKD guy's side kick,
- wrestler's single leg.

Those are the most general problems that we have to deal with. When we know our goal, we then can find the right path to reach it. In computer artificial intellegent (AI), this is called "backward search" that you start your search from your target all the way back to your root. The searching time is always "less".

Why do you think that I may look at the wrong way here? :confused:

[sanjuro_ronin]

"Wrong" in what way?

To train MA is to solve problems. Our problems are to deal with people from other styles and not from our own style. What's the chance that you have to fight smeone in street who happens to train the same style as you do?

When a new student comes to me on the first day, I will teach him how to defend and counter against a

- boxer's punch,
- MT guy's roundhouse kick,
- TKD guy's side kick,
- wrestler's single leg.

Those are the most general problems that we have to deal with. When we know our goal, we then can find the right path to reach it.

Why do you think that I may look at the wrong way here? :confused:

There is SO MUCH in this post...
SO much that is so right:
To train MA is to solve problems. Our problems are to deal with people from other styles and not from our own style. What's the chance that you have to fight smeone in street who happens to train the same style as you do?

[Lucas]

When a new student comes to me on the first day, I will teach him how to defend and counter against a

- boxer's punch,
- MT guy's roundhouse kick,
- TKD guy's side kick,
- wrestler's single leg.



you cant get a better first day than that!

[sanjuro_ronin]

you cant get a better first day than that!

Or first year !

[Lucas]

Or first year !

haha touche

[sanjuro_ronin]

haha touche

Dealing with a well trained boxer that only has 4 punches is the simplest thing to do in theory and one of the hardest to do in reality, a wrestlers TD also.
You can spend years learning how to counter them and it would NOT be time wasted.

[Lucas]

Dealing with a well trained boxer that only has 4 punches is the simplest thing to do in theory and one of the hardest to do in reality, a wrestlers TD also.
You can spend years learning how to counter them and it would NOT be time wasted.

seriously. hell a boxer spends his entire career working on other boxers!!!

[sanjuro_ronin]

seriously. hell a boxer spends his entire career working on other boxers!!!

And that is his greatest weakness.

[Lucas]

what do you mean?

[ginosifu]

"Wrong" in what way?

To train MA is to solve problems. Our problems are to deal with people from other styles and not from our own style. What's the chance that you have to fight smeone in street who happens to train the same style as you do?

When a new student comes to me on the first day, I will teach him how to defend and counter against a

- boxer's punch,
- MT guy's roundhouse kick,
- TKD guy's side kick,
- wrestler's single leg.

Those are the most general problems that we have to deal with. When we know our goal, we then can find the right path to reach it. In computer artificial intellegent (AI), this is called "backward search" that you start your search from your target all the way back to your root. The searching time is always "less".

Why do you think that I may look at the wrong way here? :confused:

Yes.... I do believe you are over thinking this a bit. What is a style? What is the difference between Long Fist and Wing Chun. What is the difference between Hung gar and Shuai Chiao?

The systems I learned all knew how to block a MT round kick or boxers left hook, a grapplers shoot or a Eagle claw joint lock.

My teacher never said..... today we are learning to block a MT round kick or a boxers hook. He just said "Lift your arm this way and block with your knee that way and ready and huuuup, aaaaagain huuuup, one more time huuuup.

I have never in my MA life worried about if I was to meet with a boxer or if I was going have a match with another Monkey stylist or if I was going in the ring with a MT fighter. I feel that the teachers I had and my training has covered all facets of MA. I won a lot of my matches and really saw no problems of needing to learn how to defend against another STYLES.

Lets look at the anatomy of most any fight. If someone approaches you and starts something normally you start at long range. If you go into a sports match (Boxing, MMA etc) you start at long range. If someone sucker punches you is from long range (it is difficult to punch from very close range).

Long range is the start of most all situations (unless they tackle you from blind spot). Most long techniques are over with in a few seconds and people tend to close the distance. However, there are those who are quite skilled at long range and can damage you from far away. These are a very small percentage of people though.

What happens is that the meat fight is at close range and STYLE is very limited here. A person may be skilled in Eagle Claw or Chin Na and might have that as their close range STYLE. Some people are skilled at wrestling / SC or BJJ and use that as their close range STYLE. These are less style and more sensivity and skill of knowing what to do when someone is touching me.

Most important part of the fight is when they come close enough for me to grab them, then comes my grappling skills. You need some kind of grappling, whether it's BJJ or SC or High School Wrestling dose not matter.

John you worry to much about style or no style. blah blah blah. Just fight with your Long Fist until they come close and then grapple them with your SC. What is so difficult about that?

ginosifu

[YouKnowWho]

John you worry to much about style or no style. blah blah blah. Just fight with your Long Fist until they come close and then grapple them with your SC. What is so difficult about that?

ginosifu

What's our disagreement here? :confused:

I have never had any "style boundary" in my life. It was my question why others have "style boundary" instead.

[Robinhood]

Should a

- longfist guy ignore boxing hook punch?
- SC guy ignore wrestling single leg or Judo hip throw?
- TKD guy ignore MT roundhouse kick?
- Aikido guy ignore eagle claw joint lock?

When my longfist teacher taught 戚門劍(chi men sword) in his workshop, he mentioned, "No Qi, not enough Qi, don't use Li". Will you be able to tell "what style does his 戚門劍 (chi men sword) is associated with?"

http://www.filmy.cvwp.info/movie.php?id=mMdf07n8Mh8

Does it make sense for a

- WC guy to start a "WC kick" thread?
- WC guy to start a "WC footwork" thread?
- Ninja guy to start a "Ninja Punch" thread?
- Ninja guy to start a "Ninja Armlock" thread?

The "style boundary" just bother me big time. Why can we just have general MA discussion instead? Am I "too open" or others are just "too closs"? What's your opinion on this?


Styles are only tools we use to try to develop ourself. They are like guides to follow that keep us on track, until we don't need them any more.

I like the analogy of getting to the top of a mountain. Styles are just paths that lead to the top of the mountain, some paths are longer than others, some don't go to the top etc.

When you get to the top of the mountain, you can see and use any path when you want, and don't have to use the one you came up on, you can also see off the mountain and see what paths don't lead to the top.


That being said, you can't jump from path to path, and if your path isn't going up you might want to go get on another path.

And yes you should practice against body movement not style.



Cheers

[IronFist]

"Wrong" in what way?

To train MA is to solve problems. Our problems are to deal with people from other styles and not from our own style. What's the chance that you have to fight smeone in street who happens to train the same style as you do?

When a new student comes to me on the first day, I will teach him how to defend and counter against a

- boxer's punch,
- MT guy's roundhouse kick,
- TKD guy's side kick,
- wrestler's single leg.

Those are the most general problems that we have to deal with. When we know our goal, we then can find the right path to reach it. In computer artificial intellegent (AI), this is called "backward search" that you start your search from your target all the way back to your root. The searching time is always "less".

Why do you think that I may look at the wrong way here? :confused:

How do you teach noobs to deal with that? The most common defense I've seen is blocking it with your shin but a noob can't do that!

[ShaolinDan]

How do you teach noobs to deal with that? The most common defense I've seen is blocking it with your shin but a noob can't do that!

You've had awful teachers, haven't you?

[Lucas]

i just teach them to block it with their face. this way you achieve 2 results, you blocked the kick, and you ended the fight cuz you got KO!

[YouKnowWho]

How do you teach noobs to deal with that? The most common defense I've seen is blocking it with your shin but a noob can't do that!

Of course a new student can't learn from his 1st lesson and uses the day after. At least that new student will understand what "direction" that he is going.

IMO, it's much more interest to discuss

- WC Chi Shou,
- Taiji push hands,
- SC grip fight.

in the same thread. This way, we can look at "bridging" from all different angles and not just from any style point of view.

[IronFist]

You've had awful teachers, haven't you?

It was never an issue because we kept the attacker at bay with qi blasts so they could've even get close enough to kick us.

[IronFist]

Of course a new student can't learn from his 1st lesson and uses the day after. At least that new student will understand what "direction" that he is going.

IMO, it's much more interest to discuss

- WC Chi Shou,
- Taiji push hands,
- SC grip fight.

in the same thread. This way, we can look at "bridging" from all different angles and not just from any style point of view.

So you never answered my question...

You can't say you do something and then when someone asks a specific question change the subject to things that are more interesting.

Well, I mean, you can, technically, but it doesn't make for good discussion.

An unconditioned noob doesn't have many options against a Muay Thai round kick. They can back up or close the distance, but you can't really block it well without being conditioned. It's not like teaching a noob to block punches from a resisting opponent with crazy monkey defense.

This is where all the people who have never trained against a resisting opponent will chime in and say I'm wrong and list some slappy hands secret fine motor coordination defense instead http://smiliesftw.com/x/laugh.gif (http://smiliesftw.com)

Options for dealing with a MT round kick from a resisting opponent:
- back out of the way
- close the distance
- take it in the thigh (not an option for noobs)
- block it with your shin (not an option for noobs)
- block it with your arm pulled into your body (assuming the kick is torso height) (not really an option for noobs)
- block it with your forearms (not an option for noobs)
- block it with an open hand block (possible, but requires certain body mechanics and not really an option for noobs, not to mention the difficulty in judging where the kick is going to land. Even pro fighters mess this up some times and block high while the kick comes in low)

lol @ anyone even remotely suggesting "tan da" or whatever other defense. You can't tan da a Muay Thai round kick delivered by a resisting opponent http://smiliesftw.com/x/laugh.gif (http://smiliesftw.com) Sure, you can defeat it with a tan da in a McDojo demonstration where the kick wasn't going to hit you anyway, but have fun with that when the guy is actually trying to hit you.

[YouKnowWho]

So you never answered my question...
I didn't know you asked me that question.

Against

1. punches - chain kicks.
2. side kick - deflect the kick, jam the arm, and move in.
3. against roundhouse kick - catch the leg, sweep/hook the standing leg (or leg escape).
4. leg shooting - downward pull.

[IronFist]

I didn't know you asked me that question.

Against

1. punches - chain kicks.

I've never heard of chain kicks before, although I've heard of chain punches.

I Googled it and found this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkGK0ilYyvg

Is that similar to what you're referring to?


3. against roundhouse kick - catch the leg, sweep/hook the standing leg (or leg escape).


If you can get noobs to catch a MT round kick then that's a legit defense.

Thanks for answering.

[YouKnowWho]

I've never heard of chain kicks before, although I've heard of chain punches.

I Googled it and found this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkGK0ilYyvg

Is that similar to what you're referring to?

If you can get noobs to catch a MT round kick then that's a legit defense.

Thanks for answering.

It's not fair to compare any beginner with professional MT fighter. To be able to catch a high roundhouse kick and sweep/hook the standing leg is the 1st degree black testing requirement for ACSCA members.

This is the "chain kick" that I'm talking about. You may just simply call it "knee stepping"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZk7JCPDDuE

[IronFist]

This is the "chain kick" that I'm talking about. You may just simply call it "knee stepping"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZk7JCPDDuE

Cool, thanks for posting.

The name "chain" threw me off as I assumed they were done over and over, like how chain punches are.

Makes sense in application against a punching attack.

[ginosifu]

What's our disagreement here? :confused:

I have never had any "style boundary" in my life. It was my question why others have "style boundary" instead.

My point is" you can stay in 1 style like Northern Shaolin (Long Fist) which contains all the components to defend your self. It has long range, short range, chin na, di tang etc. everything is in that one system. Boundry's are only what you put on your self.

ginosifu

[YouKnowWho]

The name "chain" threw me off as I assumed they were done over and over, like how chain punches are.

The reason it's called "chain kicks" because the moment that your opponent puts weight on his leading foot, you use 45 degree downward foot stomping on his knee. The moment that he lifts that foot to avoid your stomping, you wait for him to land that foot back down again. It's like to use machine gun to shot at your opponent's feet and force him to "dance". You just use this one simple move to disallow your opponent to put weight on his leading leg. If he can't put weight on his leading foot, he can't punch you by default. If your opponent is not used to deal with that, it will bother him big time. That will be your advantage.

My senior longfist brother Nelson Zou in NYC (He used to run "5 tigers club" in NYC back in 1973) could step on his opponent's knee 3 times per second. He could execute his knee stomping without even look down at his opponent's knee. The moment that his opponent looks down, the moment that his punch will land on his opponent's face. It's a very effective combat strategy IMO. A little bit "dirty" but "effective".

[YouKnowWho]

My point is" you can stay in 1 style like Northern Shaolin (Long Fist) which contains all the components to defend your self. It has long range, short range, chin na, di tang etc. everything is in that one system. Boundry's are only what you put on your self.

ginosifu
You have more faith in longfist (northern Shaolin) system than I do but that's OK. We pretty much agree on everything else.

[SPJ]

styles are preferred ways of dealing with common fighting problems

it is not that it could be all and end all.

but preferred with reasons why

---

:cool:

[ShaolinDan]

It was never an issue because we kept the attacker at bay with qi blasts so they could've even get close enough to kick us.


...or you could point your toe in so you end up blocking with the muscle on the outside of the leg instead of the shinbone. :D

[IronFist]

...or you could point your toe in so you end up blocking with the muscle on the outside of the leg instead of the shinbone. :D

*subtle never blocked a round kick with my shin post*

[ShaolinDan]

*subtle never blocked a round kick with my shin post*


Ohhh...kay? I know you are but what am I? :p You should try it.

[Eric Olson]

It's funny, but what gets lost in a lot of these discussion about techniques being equivalent is the conditioning that is behind them. For example, in Choy Lay Fut (and Hung Gar) there's a lot of conditioning that goes into the forearm for blocking. The goal is to not just block but to hurt or scare your opponent in the process. At one point I could slam my forearm into a solid piece of wood and feel very little pain.

Now someone could easily imitate my motion and pick up the movement of blocking quite quickly. But would they be able to hurt someone with that blocking motion? No, because they hadn't put in the conditioning. In a "system", it's all connected. You can't simply imitate movements and make them work without putting in the conditioning time.

EO

[YouKnowWho]

When your opponent uses high roundhouse kick to hit your head, if you can let your elbow to meet his incoming "insteap", it will hurt his foot big time. Which "style" does this principle come from? I truly don't know.

[SPJ]

When your opponent uses high roundhouse kick to hit your head, if you can let your elbow to meet his incoming "insteap", it will hurt his foot big time. Which "style" does this principle come from? I truly don't know.

1. if you hit the opponent's hitting arm and you kick the opponent's kicking leg

You strike the strike. It is southern style.

2. if you neutralize the hitting arm and kicking leg and re direct them, it is Tai Chi.

3. if you avoid or dodge the opponent's hitting arm and kicking leg and strike him at his opening at the same time.

You hit me and I hit you at the same time. It is northern style.

Styles are preferred ways to do things.

Fashion, cooking, painting, music on and on. They all have styles.

Styles of living that is. Southern cooking, northern cooking etc etc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KH7ZScNK2Ho

original style

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlccUKnfnpo

jazzy style or latin jazz style or bossa nova style

etc etc

:)

[Eric Olson]

When your opponent uses high roundhouse kick to hit your head, if you can let your elbow to meet his incoming "insteap", it will hurt his foot big time. Which "style" does this principle come from? I truly don't know.

That would be style "agnostic", but what I described isn't. Maybe its harder to draw boundaries around styles, than it is around style "families" or regional differences.

Another example from Taiji/Baji. Those styles uses "kao" as an offensive technique. If you don't have the body mechanics behind it then its a lot less effective. Kao is non-existent in any of the Southern Styles I learned.

The list could go on and on....

EO

[YouKnowWho]

Kao is non-existent in any of the Southern Styles I learned.
This is another good reason that TCMA discussion should involve with both nothern style and southerm style. Why certain principle does not exist in certain style? That will be a good discussion by itself.

I have discussed with many Taiji guys on the leg skill usage. When you apply Taiji Peng, Lu, Ji, An, ... if you also combine with leg work such as cut, block, twist, scoop, hook, spring, ... it will make those principles work much better. If Taiji guys only discuss with Taiji guys, those discussion issue will never happen.

I also had discussion with TKD guys about their hook kick and spin hook kick. The only reason that I can come up with why both kicks are not emphasized in the TCMA may be becaus it could be risky to use in ancient battle fireld sword fight.

The Kao is commonly used in the grappling art than in the striking art. It's impossible to Kao your opponent to death IMO. You will not find Kao in "pure" striking art and that's for sure.

The Kao is also used in Chinese wrestling. the purpose is not to hurt your opponent but to push his upper body back while you hook his leg. It can also be used to force your opponent's leading leg to come off the ground so you can grab it.

[IronFist]

Can someone please define "Kao" for me? I'm not familiar with that term.

Thanks.

[YouKnowWho]

Can someone please define "Kao" for me? I'm not familiar with that term.

Thanks.
靠(Kao) - advance squeeze is to use your shoulder to hit your opponent's body in a 90 degree angle.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUiMERcOV2k

If you use your shoulder to hit your opponent straight back, it's called 撞(Zhuang) - trunk hitting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=resceMjscVM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJtVpFpdkO4

[IronFist]

Cool, thanks.

[-N-]

The Kao is commonly used in the grappling art than in the striking art. It's impossible to Kao your opponent to death IMO. You will not find Kao in "pure" striking art and that's for sure.

"The Body Strike - The Body Strike means to approach the enemy through a gap in his guard. The spirit is to strike him with your body. Turn your face a little aside and strike the enemy's breast with your left shoulder thrust out. Approach with the spirit of bouncing the enemy away, striking as strongly as possible in time with your breathing. If you achieve this method of closing with the enemy, you will be able to knock him ten or twenty feet away. It is possible to strike the enemy until he is dead. Train well."

From A Book of Five Rings.

Mantis likes to train this as well. And not just with shoulder.

[bawang]

a form is a gymnastic exercise. you cant just say something is not found in a form, then kung fu doesnt have it. its a bad idea to learn fighting solely base don a form.



for example, in my hometown there is a kung fu style that has only one form, comprised only of lunge punches.


Should a

- longfist guy ignore boxing hook punch?


long fist literally means hook punching. "红拳，肱也，长拳，鞭法也"

[YouKnowWho]

a form is a gymnastic exercise. you cant just say something is not found in a form, then kung fu doesnt have it. its a bad idea to learn fighting solely base don a form.

A: Does Taiji have "flying side kick"?
B: Yes!
A: I don't see it in any Taiji forms.
B: It exists in our basic training.

A: Does WC have "hip throw"?
B: Yes!
A: I don't see it in any WC forms.
B: It exists in our basic training.

...

[bawang]

are you agreeing or disagreeing i don get it

[YouKnowWho]

are you agreeing or disagreeing i don get it

Of course I disagree. If you are the style founder and you create a set of forms to pass your knowledge to the future generation, you will include the most important information in your package and that's for sure.

[Robinhood]

Of course I disagree. If you are the style founder and you create a set of forms to pass your knowledge to the future generation, you will include the most important information in your package and that's for sure.

The form should create the car, the form doesn't teach you how to drive the car.

The reason you don't see high kicks in most arts, is it is not practical to kick above the waist for many reasons, #1 being your balls can get hit very easily, your in bad position #2, it takes to long #3, etc. You see it in sport fighting styles because they have rules that you can not hit each other in the balls.



Cheers

[SPJ]

A: Does Taiji have "flying side kick"?
B: Yes!
A: I don't see it in any Taiji forms.
B: It exists in our basic training.

A: Does WC have "hip throw"?
B: Yes!
A: I don't see it in any WC forms.
B: It exists in our basic training.

...

1. there are many kicks stomp, swing/crescent kicks etc in chen tai ji old frame routine one.

They were dropped or reduced in Yang cheng fu exercise tai chi routine.

2. WC has scorpion and scissor kicks etc

In little idea, you practice hands without moving the feet. but all the "trapping or splashing hands may be set up or follow up with throw

And of course, you do have to move your feet and hip to be close or body contact the opponent first.

My point is that

We do need to have practice regimes specifically for punches, kicks and throws

Their stepping and body methods are different of course

for hitting methods, kicking methods and throwing methods etc



:)

[Robinhood]

Of course I disagree. If you are the style founder and you create a set of forms to pass your knowledge to the future generation, you will include the most important information in your package and that's for sure.

You can't teach someone how you drive by giving them a map.



Cheers