Stop deleting threads

[CFT]

... that don't go the way you hoped they would.

You are showing contempt for the time and thought that some people have afforded you. It is most discourteous and shows lack of respect for your fellow forum participants.

Why would anyone bother to offer any kind of susbtantive feedback - positive or otherwise?

I stand by what I write. I rarely edit because I usually think about what I want to say. If people tell me what I write is sh1te then I would let that stand and allow others judge for themselves.

[Frost]

CFT, its probably because i keep asking him for clips of his art in action, in order not to annoy other forum users ill bite my tongue and stop requesting them so he doesnt throw a hissy fit :rolleyes:

[k gledhill]

Moderation is my choice, usually when a subject goes off topic it is closed, I choose on my own thread.
If I make a thread about chi-sao for example and the only comment made by a guy is "he's not wearing a shirt..." :D Then random takes over.....

Troll comments are tedious and deleted straight away on other forums for their lack of respect to the poster, furthering more random comments that end up creating the following image :D

Frost

[sanjuro_ronin]

Moderation is my choice, usually when a subject goes off topic it is closed, I choose on my own thread.
If I make a thread about chi-sao for example and the only comment made by a guy is "he's not wearing a shirt..." :D Then random takes over.....

Troll comments are tedious and deleted straight away on other forums for their lack of respect to the poster, furthering more random comments that end up creating the following image :D

Frost

I think that you are being unreasonable Kevin.
You may not like that people question your training methods but if that is the case, why on earth post them in a forum that discusses and debates about those very things ??

[Frost]

actually as well as the shirt comment, comments were made about poor structure, and lack of power by actual wing chun people gasp!

Comments were also made about the uselessness of a training method that made so little contact the guy didn’t need to take his glasses off, and about the fact for all your talk about fighting and sparring all you can ever post is compliant clips or clips with no contact (let alone actual sparring)

Just wanted to set the record straight :D

[CFT]

There was some decent, considered feedback in that thread. The t-shirt comments were in the minority and neither here nor there. The questions about glasses were quite reasonable.

You can call me a fcukwad here. I couldn't give a sh1t and I wouldn't delete this thread.

You know you won't be able to convince or satisfy 100% of the people here, but what difference would it make anyway? You obviously find value in the PBWSLVT training methods or you wouldn't keep practicising or posting the clips here.

[Wayfaring]

Moderation is my choice, usually when a subject goes off topic it is closed, I choose on my own thread.
If I make a thread about chi-sao for example and the only comment made by a guy is "he's not wearing a shirt..." :D Then random takes over.....

Troll comments are tedious and deleted straight away on other forums for their lack of respect to the poster, furthering more random comments that end up creating the following image :D

Frost

LOL :D
http://i36.tinypic.com/ann3er.jpg

[Happy Tiger]

I must admit, I am disappointed when threads are deleted, as I always enjoy them. Yes, people can be very rude and judgemental reguarding clips offered but we are fighters, known to be rough around the edges (Ving Tsun people judgemental???Naaw!). How people comment tells me alot about who they really are. Valuable knowlege for a martial artist who is considering the wisdom of their words. I was going to say in the chi sau thread, those guys reminded me of Jiu Wan type chi sau abit as much as WSL ( I used to train with a couple of sifu Fred Kwoks desiples.)Oh well. I'm thinking of posting some clips myself soon, and as I've seen lately, I'd best prepare for some 'honest' feedback :)
I noticed the players were at an interesting point in their development working on some favorites. As for structure, looks like still under construction.:cool:

[Wayfaring]

Troll comments are tedious and deleted straight away on other forums for their lack of respect to the poster, furthering more random comments that end up creating the following image :D


Need to address this. You posted one clip with a one sentence intro. Wow. Tons of effort there bro. It actually turns into a reasonable discussion with some great practical points about training chi sau.

You? Got mad as points don't reflect great on your boys, hit delete.

What about this behavior exactly is it that is supposed to garner you a great deal of respect around here?

[GeneChing]

At 54,142 threads and counting, we can afford to delete a few. ;)

[LFJ]

I thought it was obvious the guy with glasses was the trainer, purposely presenting opportunities and testing lat sau jik chung, etc., and at that level of intensity in such a practice drill wearing glasses doesn't matter. It's not like he was making a statement, because they weren't competing with one another. I read useless and irrelevant comments mostly...

[Wayfaring]

At 54,142 threads and counting, we can afford to delete a few. ;)

A Gene Ching sighting in the Wing Chun forum?

Wow, hell must be freezing over. ;)

[Ali. R]

... that don't go the way you hoped they would.

You are showing contempt for the time and thought that some people have afforded you. It is most discourteous and shows lack of respect for your fellow forum participants.

Why would anyone bother to offer any kind of susbtantive feedback - positive or otherwise?

I stand by what I write. I rarely edit because I usually think about what I want to say. If people tell me what I write is sh1te then I would let that stand and allow others judge for themselves.

You’re right, because we all know how people are on this forum (very critical), and if you’re not tight (fully developed) before showing your goods and while being a critic to boot (putting the cart before the horse); you should get nailed to the wall for displaying a highly odious form of techniques. I think one needs a reality check dealing on structural awareness and integrity.

Man, I could go on and on about that CHI SAO clip, and it wasn’t just about the shirts being off, but I’ve read and seen many different things on that thread that was pen point accurate about what was going on with it. I think people were being honest about what they were seeing, just as the one who put the clip/thread up. By deleting that thread is like a football critic moving the goal post while behind on points.

[Wayfaring]

I thought it was obvious the guy with glasses was the trainer, purposely presenting opportunities and testing lat sau jik chung, etc., and at that level of intensity in such a practice drill wearing glasses doesn't matter. It's not like he was making a statement, because they weren't competing with one another. I read useless and irrelevant comments mostly...

What I was pointing out about that was that the "opportunities" and "testing" did not provide an "alive" enough environment that he was in danger of getting hit. This is not realistic training.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imjmLWj5WCU

[k gledhill]

At 54,142 threads and counting, we can afford to delete a few. ;)

Where is the button? ; )

[Happy Tiger]

Moderation is my choice, usually when a subject goes off topic it is closed, I choose on my own thread.
If I make a thread about chi-sao for example and the only comment made by a guy is "he's not wearing a shirt..." :D Then random takes over.....

Troll comments are tedious and deleted straight away on other forums for their lack of respect to the poster, furthering more random comments that end up creating the following image :D

Frost
Besides, the official uniform of VT is a golf shirt (with breast pocket), jeans and running shoes. The perfect clothing for training hard fighting. Nothing else seems right.

[GeneChing]

A Gene Ching sighting in the Wing Chun forum?

Wow, hell must be freezing over. ;)...Honestly, I can only discuss sil lum tao so much before I lose interest. :o

[LFJ]

What I was pointing out about that was that the "opportunities" and "testing" did not provide an "alive" enough environment that he was in danger of getting hit. This is not realistic training.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imjmLWj5WCU

Well, I understand the necessity of aliveness in training, but I think you're misunderstanding the purpose of the drill they were doing.

The chisau drill they were running was not sparring, and they were not competing against one another. What they were doing was experimenting with their structure and principles (which we can surely criticize) in a sort of laboratory, which they can then take into more alive testing once a certain standard is reached. If something by that point is not is not working, it will be obvious and they will go back to their forms and chisau to correct it.

There doesn't need to be a danger of getting hit to make a drill useful or "alive". Much like the way WSL taught daan chisau where the partners are at a range where they cannot actually hit each other, not because they don't want to hit each other, but for the purpose of training full extension and power. The drill can still be done in an "alive" manner where one will feel the need to jamsau or bongsau, even without the danger of getting hit.

Of course, chisau can be trained in a more aggressive manner which might better fit your idea of alive training, but one does not always benefit from that if things aren't working at a more basic level.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well, I understand the necessity of aliveness in training, but I think you're misunderstanding the purpose of the drill they were doing.

The chisau drill they were running was not sparring, and they were not competing against one another. What they were doing was experimenting with their structure and principles (which we can surely criticize) in a sort of laboratory, which they can then take into more alive testing once a certain standard is reached. If something by that point is not is not working, it will be obvious and they will go back to their forms and chisau to correct it.

There doesn't need to be a danger of getting hit to make a drill useful or "alive". Much like the way WSL taught daan chisau where the partners are at a range where they cannot actually hit each other, not because they don't want to hit each other, but for the purpose of training full extension and power. The drill can still be done in an "alive" manner where one will feel the need to jamsau or bongsau, even without the danger of getting hit.

Of course, chisau can be trained in a more aggressive manner which might better fit your idea of alive training, but one does not always benefit from that if things aren't working at a more basic level.

I would argue that the more basic the level the more crucial contact is ( not necessarily full contact of course) since the practitioners don't have any real point of reference to draw on in regards to how things work in actual combat.

[LFJ]

I would argue that the more basic the level the more crucial contact is ( not necessarily full contact of course) since the practitioners don't have any real point of reference to draw on in regards to how things work in actual combat.

The other reason daan chisau in WSLVT is done outside the range where contact may occur is that since you're not fully punching through your partner's head, you'll be stopping short where you can't use real power and obviously extension, and this may lead to bad habits or not really getting a sense of striking as you actually would, or feeling the necessity to defend against that sort of energy.

WSLVT daan chisau (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITEDDicoo6Y)

The two guys training chisau in the earlier clip were in striking range and making contact, just not with full power as they were just checking structure and principles.

I think it's their structure and principles we should be criticizing, not that they weren't going hard or "alive" enough so the guy was not worried about keeping his glasses on. Their chisau was (I thought) obviously for a different purpose.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The other reason daan chisau in WSLVT is done outside the range where contact may occur is that since you're not fully punching through your partner's head, you'll be stopping short where you can't use real power and obviously extension, and this may lead to bad habits or not really getting a sense of striking as you actually would, or feeling the necessity to defend against that sort of energy.

WSLVT daan chisau (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITEDDicoo6Y)

The two guys training chisau in the earlier clip were in striking range and making contact, just not with full power as they were just checking structure and principles.

I think it's their structure and principles we should be criticizing, not that they weren't going hard or "alive" enough so the guy was not worried about keeping his glasses on. Their chisau was (I thought) obviously for a different purpose.

You don't need to KO or even go full contact, just hard enough to make it honest.
Striking from an unrealistic distance is just as bad as pulling your strikes IMO.
IN SPM we use to do "slap" fights from an "extended" bridge (similar to chi sao), it keep things honest and no one got more than a red face or maybe a little blooded lip or nose.
You can't work on correct structure IF that structure is NOT being tested.
In a contact art the most important principle is to MAKE CONTACT and if you are not doing that, well...

[LFJ]

I can appreciate what you're saying, but chisau is not sparring, although many people take it to be the be-all and end-all of WCK.

The purpose in basic daan chisau is to become sensitive to the energy of the opponent and to feel the need to react. That's something that can be developed without needing to make contact or the danger of being hit, after all it's only a few inches out of range, still enough to make a beginner flinch.

It of course builds from there into contact drills and eventually free sparring, but imo these should not be confused.

Chisau can be trained in different manners to achieve different goals. Basic structure and principles can be checked at a lighter intensity level where there is not much danger. It's like the first section of SNT being done slowly. It's not realistic either, but it's for a certain aim that perhaps is unseen and not understood by the onlooker.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I can appreciate what you're saying, but chisau is not sparring, although many people take it to be the be-all and end-all of WCK.

The purpose in basic daan chisau is to become sensitive to the energy of the opponent and to feel the need to react. That's something that can be developed without needing to make contact or the danger of being hit, after all it's only a few inches out of range, still enough to make a beginner flinch.

It of course builds from there into contact drills and eventually free sparring, but imo these should not be confused.

Chisau can be trained in different manners to achieve different goals. Basic structure and principles can be checked at a lighter intensity level where there is not much danger. It's like the first section of SNT being done slowly. It's not realistic either, but it's for a certain aim that perhaps is unseen and not understood by the onlooker.

Let me be clear that I am ONLY referring to when strikes are used in chi sao, when it escalates from a sensitivity drill to more than that.
I should have been more clear, sorry.

[Frost]

I can appreciate what you're saying, but chisau is not sparring, although many people take it to be the be-all and end-all of WCK.

The purpose in basic daan chisau is to become sensitive to the energy of the opponent and to feel the need to react. That's something that can be developed without needing to make contact or the danger of being hit, after all it's only a few inches out of range, still enough to make a beginner flinch.

It of course builds from there into contact drills and eventually free sparring, but imo these should not be confused.

Chisau can be trained in different manners to achieve different goals. Basic structure and principles can be checked at a lighter intensity level where there is not much danger. It's like the first section of SNT being done slowly. It's not realistic either, but it's for a certain aim that perhaps is unseen and not understood by the onlooker.

surely if contact is not being made and the distance being used in the drill is not the distance you would be using in a real fight, the structure would be artificial and the incoming strikes and thus the sensitivity needed to read them would also be artificial and incorrect?

the amount of times in sparring i have seen people pull up short or not hit with power because of training incorrectly in drills is too many to mention, why not simply start of correctly and ingrain good habits?

[LFJ]

surely if contact is not being made and the distance being used in the drill is not the distance you would be using in a real fight, the structure would be artificial and the incoming strikes and thus the sensitivity needed to read them would also be artificial and incorrect?

the amount of times in sparring i have seen people pull up short or not hit with power because of training incorrectly in drills is too many to mention, why not simply start of correctly and ingrain good habits?

You've kind of flip-flopped the idea. The point in extending the range is to allow for good habits of full extension and issue of power, rather than short jammed up structures with no real energy, which may cause a bad habit of stopping short or adversely affect the sense of attacking and defending with realistic intent.

I don't think extending the range in daan chisau would cause artificial sensitivity or incorrect structures, for one because the attacking side trains through full extension and realistic power, and two the defending side still feels the need to react and forms the same structure they would three inches closer.

[Frost]

You've kind of flip-flopped the idea. The point in extending the range is to allow for good habits of full extension and issue of power, rather than short jammed up structures with no real energy, which may cause a bad habit of stopping short or adversely affect the sense of attacking and defending with realistic intent.

I don't think extending the range in daan chisau would cause artificial sensitivity or incorrect structures, for one because the attacking side trains through full extension and realistic power, and two the defending side still feels the need to react and forms the same structure they would three inches closer.

how can it be realistic intent when you are not even in range to actually make any contact?

ANd you are not hitting anything so how do you know you are developing power at the full extension of your hits?
You have in reality traded one bad habit: not being able to make contact because of short range, for another: not being in range to hit the target and hitting thin air

A miss is a miss, doesn't matter if its 3 inches or ten, if you are not in range to hit your training partner he will not be able to react realistically

[Vajramusti]

Trying to keep the thread going atleast with respect to chi sao. Chi sao is pretty lineage specific because it is based on each lineage's understanding of concept, principles, lines, structure (body and hand). No such thing such as general chi sao. Having done chi sao with lots of people, I can pretty well tell what the other guys back ground is Just rolling a bit and starting to hit missed much of the
possible benefits of chi sao.
Blending chi sao with lop sao, a full range of footwork. breaking off, going in, gor sao attacks, combining with kicks- many ways to sharpen one's wing chun game, Then later taking on people from other styles in sparring. It helps to have specific reasons for doing different things.
We have seen things from KG's current PB.WSL related compadres. Among others, I have rolled with WSL and have a sense of his structure.
Snips of David P from the wsl lineage has appeared here. So has Gary Lam. Barry Lee-WSL's ex brother in law does very good WSL relted chi sao.Here is an example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yr59XqhFgr4

Most of my wc brothers and sisters generally seem to chi sao more than most WSL people thatI have seen and not rushing into atatcking--- sharpening things like timing, distance, structure and balance.
One can practice two person man sao semi sparring without gloves and work on different things as well including throwing, and qinna...depending on levels of achievement.

Just as tui shou is good taiji's gift to TCMA, good chi sao is wing chun's gift-if well done.
Pics of chi sao give some limited views of what goes on but actually doing it gives you so much finer sense and listening skills.
Just informing, not arguing or engaging in one up manship.

joy chaudhuri

[Sihing73]

Okay guys I put the thread back up.

Please keep it on track and discuss Chi Sau not shirtless boys or men.

Oh, here is something which adds new meaning to the "Goat Riding Stance" :eek:

[LFJ]

how can it be realistic intent when you are not even in range to actually make any contact?

"Realistic" doesn't mean "real", but is based on what is real.

Because you are going through full extension and releasing power, whereas, if you are in range to make contact you stop way short and pull your punch so as not to injure your training partner.

Of these two, the first is done with "realistic" intent, going fully through the motion and striking hard. Because the contact point is going to be at the middle of the punch, and then follow through to full extension, as you would actually punch.

It may not be real intent because it is still a practice drill and we aren't really trying to hit each other, but it is at least realistic intent. If you practice in contact range but always pull, ending in a jammed up position, you will never be practicing a full strike. That obviously can be neither real nor realistic intent.


ANd you are not hitting anything so how do you know you are developing power at the full extension of your hits?

Here is not where you develop power, like on a wall bag or focus mitt. But you are issuing power, in that you have no reason to pull your punch all the time.


You have in reality traded one bad habit: not being able to make contact because of short range, for another: not being in range to hit the target and hitting thin air

The empty hand forms all have punches in them that strike into thin air. Is this creating a bad habit too? I would say no, because you are there working on the structure of a complete strike. There are other areas of training where we hit things, like the wall bag and focus mitts. And in daan chisau we are never pulling punches, so we create a habit of always throwing a full strike.


A miss is a miss, doesn't matter if its 3 inches or ten, if you are not in range to hit your training partner he will not be able to react realistically

Have you ever tried daan chisau from the extended range that WSL taught? If you do you will feel it. Because your partner is launching a fully extended and powerful strike, you will feel the need to jamsau or bongsau, even if it misses by a few inches, which happens in fighting often.

If something is a foot away you may not need to defend against it. But at a few inches it's hard to tell, so you must defend. Also if you make a mistake and your balance is affected, it is still possible to get hit in this drill.

[Frost]

"Realistic" doesn't mean "real", but is based on what is real.

Because you are going through full extension and releasing power, whereas, if you are in range to make contact you stop way short and pull your punch so as not to injure your training partner.

Of these two, the first is done with "realistic" intent, going fully through the motion and striking hard. Because the contact point is going to be at the middle of the punch, and then follow through to full extension, as you would actually punch.

It may not be real intent because it is still a practice drill and we aren't really trying to hit each other, but it is at least realistic intent. If you practice in contact range but always pull, ending in a jammed up position, you will never be practicing a full strike. That obviously can be neither real nor realistic intent.



Here is not where you develop power, like on a wall bag or focus mitt. But you are issuing power, in that you have no reason to pull your punch all the time.



The empty hand forms all have punches in them that strike into thin air. Is this creating a bad habit too? I would say no, because you are there working on the structure of a complete strike. There are other areas of training where we hit things, like the wall bag and focus mitts. And in daan chisau we are never pulling punches, so we create a habit of always throwing a full strike.



Have you ever tried daan chisau from the extended range that WSL taught? If you do you will feel it. Because your partner is launching a fully extended and powerful strike, you will feel the need to jamsau or bongsau, even if it misses by a few inches, which happens in fighting often.

If something is a foot away you may not need to defend against it. But at a few inches it's hard to tell, so you must defend. Also if you make a mistake and your balance is affected, it is still possible to get hit in this drill.
realistic intent to me means actually intending to hit the target, if you are not intending to hit them then its as bad as pulling your shots short, worse probably because at least when you pull them short you are in correct range and thus their is some fear of things going wrong, if you are outside range you can get very good at throwing shots that look good but which dont hit

hitting a bag and hitting a person are two different things, structure is the first thing to go once contact is made, hence the only real way to practise it is with contact in drills to pressure test that structure.
We can see this in the Yip man festival video from fatsan: as soon as real contact was made in the sparring or chisau clips everything else went out of the window and it became sparring at a longer range than they started at, so why not teach drills that have contact and that get you used to making contact at the range you want to be at?
Another point is that without making contact during the drills you dont have any feel for the opponent, the distance you need to hit in order to make real impact, how the strike can miss, slip or glance off at certain angles , its akin to sparring but not allowing contact, it makes you feel good because you can throw full power shots without the fear of getting hit, but without that fear the drill is largely meaningless.
The hardest thing to do to get beginners used to getting into the range you need to be at in order to hit and to stay there, its natural to hang out at a longer range because its safer, and that is what it appears to me to be ingraining in the student, an unnatural distance but hey thats just my view :)

Now you might say that sparring and contact happens, but the amount of videos posted that show drills like this is legion, the amount showing hard contact less so, and when they are posted, like the fatshan clips, alan orrs stuff or Phils stuff, people tend to comment it looks nothing like the real wing chun

[LFJ]

realistic intent to me means actually intending to hit the target

That would be real intent, in agreement with the word 'actual' in your definition. If you actually intend to hit the target, then if your partner makes a mistake you will not pull your punch and really knock them out. Is that how you drill?

Realistic would be as in the way a duck hunter's decoy is realistic, but certainly not real. A realistic intent would likewise simulate the full extension and issue of power of a real attacker, but wouldn't actually be real.

I take it you have never tried the extended range daan chisau as WSL taught it. The only thing needed to make it real would just be to inch forward, not alter the structure, actually extend, and issue power- major changes that would be necessary otherwise.

[JPinAZ]

how can it be realistic intent when you are not even in range to actually make any contact?

ANd you are not hitting anything so how do you know you are developing power at the full extension of your hits?
You have in reality traded one bad habit: not being able to make contact because of short range, for another: not being in range to hit the target and hitting thin air

A miss is a miss, doesn't matter if its 3 inches or ten, if you are not in range to hit your training partner he will not be able to react realistically

I'm with Frost on this one. I agree with the fact that it takes away from the 'realism' if you aren't trying to hit your opponent, or at the range to even be able too (at least from a chi sau perspective). To take it one step further, if you're out of range to even make contact with your opponent when you strike, you are technically out of taan/bong/fook chi sau range. With that in mind, the drill shouldn't even be starting with those tools because you are really outside the timeframe where those tools are applicable. (unless you stepped in with the attack of course)

Besides all of that, I don't see a problem with closer range T/B/F daan chi sau where each person can reach the other and using higher energy. If both sides understand the tools and the ranges they work in (understanding the structure, leverage points, correct energy, etc), then they should be able to neutralize the attacks without getting hit. And then there's the times you won't and you'll simply get hit... as happens in live training.

Dislcaimer: In saying the above, I don't mean anything against D.Peterson or WSLVT, just that my understanding of chi sau is different based on my experience. One key point I agree 100% on with David in the clip is the need for the inside attacker to attack to the high reference/face area, as well as the consequences he pointed to if you don't!

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Frost;1170786]realistic intent to me means actually intending to hit the target, if you are not intending to hit them then its as bad as pulling your shots short, worse probably because at least when you pull them short you are in correct range and thus their is some fear of things going wrong, if you are outside range you can get very good at throwing shots that look good but which dont hit

------------------------------------------------------
David Petersen and WSL (see youtube and wsl's dan chi sao)are doing it right.The palm points to the target and the power is released.
It is not a pulling back. It's a part of step by step skill building. ..a springy full release with aim and structure and timing and control...not a muscular pushing power.

Of course- you can hit as well. If you agree to do it that way . But it is important to first develop certain attributes and skills and a working physical understanding of them.

But good wing chun involves layer by layer skill development. One cannot judge a complete picture by observing a brush stroke.

joy chaudhuri

[wingchunIan]

for those saying that chi sau should include heavier contact, i'd say that it's a personal choice if both partners are equal level. But I emphasise the word partner. Chi sau is not fighting and its not sparring. You should feel comfortable enough to try things in chi sau, to experiment with what you've learned, not feel that if you get it wrong you'll lose your teeth. If you only ever train to hit no one learns anything other than fear of trying anything and what it feels like to get hit.

[Happy Tiger]

If there's any preperation to be made, including feinting, drawing and leading ( the basis for much of chi sau variety), better to do it in the pre contact 'safety' range. Once contact is made and there is a strong intent to strike/attack with simplicity and directness... if structure is sound, not much can really happen.In real combat, trying to feint, draw or lead while in this quicksilver state is usually a dangerous waste of time and energy.When the hand is free, hit instinctively. So much trapping and round abouts in chi sau, simply can't happen unless there is an opening created or alowed for the sake of development of chi sau skills or something 'wing chunny' to happen. I don't even think in terms of range much any more. In real fighting, often the 'trapping' chi sau range is zipped by in an instant. For me the trapping range is just a quick junction to other things. This area we spend countless hours only in. More hard, full protection sparring with the wrestling and grappleing range in wilfull access. Where's the VT? This is why in real hand to hand all over the world, there just isn't too much (some but not too much) opportunity for trapping unungst good fighters.I like what Vajramusti said about the palms pointing to target.('holding the pearl' as sifu Li Man Kit says.) This is a basic must for good chi sau.

[Wayfaring]

for those saying that chi sau should include heavier contact, i'd say that it's a personal choice if both partners are equal level.

You can do it that way. But to clarify, I'm not saying chi sau should include heavier contact. I'm saying it should not consist of the bulk of your fighting training. It should be relegated to maybe 50/50 with sparring as a beginner, and as you progress should drop off to 20/80. (50/50 meaning 50% of time chi sau, 50% of time free sparring).



But I emphasise the word partner. Chi sau is not fighting and its not sparring. You should feel comfortable enough to try things in chi sau, to experiment with what you've learned, not feel that if you get it wrong you'll lose your teeth.

Agree.


If you only ever train to hit no one learns anything other than fear of trying anything and what it feels like to get hit.
Sounds like someone who tried to spar once with somebody hitting them pretty hard. No - that's not how to train.

Start with complete free movement lighter contact then work your way to heavier contact. As you do that, getting hit harder, which at the start will completely eliminate any form of strategy or orientation, after a while it will be routine and will not impede your strategy.

[wingchunIan]

Sounds like someone who tried to spar once with somebody hitting them pretty hard. No - that's not how to train.

Start with complete free movement lighter contact then work your way to heavier contact. As you do that, getting hit harder, which at the start will completely eliminate any form of strategy or orientation, after a while it will be routine and will not impede your strategy.
I've been hit very hard many times in sparring but what i was referring to was more the fact that many people seem to miss the point of chi sau and focus too much on contact.
As for sparring with increasingly heavier contact, my take is different. Yes you need to not freeze when you get hit but that's easy to learn very quickly, the aim should be to minimise the times you get hit despite increasing intensity rather than learning to take a shot. In the street feeling comfortable taking a shot can lead to complacency and get you killed.

[Wayfaring]

Yes you need to not freeze when you get hit but that's easy to learn very quickly,

No, no it is not. For instance, Brock Lesnar never really learned this.


the aim should be to minimise the times you get hit despite increasing intensity rather than learning to take a shot.

The problem with that theory is that when people are not conditioned to move correctly under hard contact they all tend to do the same thing - throw up the hands and move back in a straight line. That typical reaction will maximize the times you get hit.


In the street feeling comfortable taking a shot can lead to complacency and get you killed.
IN DA STREET ?????? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Robinhood]

It is like playing Rock, paper, scissors game with only rocks.



Cheers

[Frost]

That would be real intent, in agreement with the word 'actual' in your definition. If you actually intend to hit the target, then if your partner makes a mistake you will not pull your punch and really knock them out. Is that how you drill?

Realistic would be as in the way a duck hunter's decoy is realistic, but certainly not real. A realistic intent would likewise simulate the full extension and issue of power of a real attacker, but wouldn't actually be real.

I take it you have never tried the extended range daan chisau as WSL taught it. The only thing needed to make it real would just be to inch forward, not alter the structure, actually extend, and issue power- major changes that would be necessary otherwise.
Nope how we drill is from a distance that you can make contact from, contact doesnt have to be full contact (a common response and mistake made by people who dont allow it to be honest, they cant see there's a logical progression to contact from light to full) because without correct distance everything else is build on a false base
without actual contact or fear of contact intent is not real, and the testing of the structure is false because in my experience the first time you actually allow contact and both parties know they are going to get hit, structure is the first thing to go

[LFJ]

Nope how we drill is from a distance that you can make contact from, contact doesnt have to be full contact (a common response and mistake made by people who dont allow it to be honest, they cant see there's a logical progression to contact from light to full) because without correct distance everything else is build on a false base
without actual contact or fear of contact intent is not real, and the testing of the structure is false because in my experience the first time you actually allow contact and both parties know they are going to get hit, structure is the first thing to go

Just to clarify, it's only daan chisau practiced in that extended range, so beginners can make good habits of striking fully, but still have a simple sensitivity/reaction drill. It gets into a more realistic range after that, once coordination in both hands is not a problem anymore and some sensitivity is developed. Seung chisau is never done in that range.

[wingchunIan]

Just to clarify, it's only daan chisau practiced in that extended range, so beginners can make good habits of striking fully, but still have a simple sensitivity/reaction drill. It gets into a more realistic range after that, once coordination in both hands is not a problem anymore and some sensitivity is developed. Seung chisau is never done in that range.

Interesting to see the difference in approach to dan chi sau. We do the exercise at a range where contact can be made but teach that going to extension is wrong as you should be learning to switch off the shots as soon as they meet resistance. In this way not only does the defender develop sensitivity but so too does the attacker, providing the first building block in developing the ability to flow round defences rather than trying to blast through.

[Happy Tiger]

Interesting to see the difference in approach to dan chi sau. We do the exercise at a range where contact can be made but teach that going to extension is wrong as you should be learning to switch off the shots as soon as they meet resistance. In this way not only does the defender develop sensitivity but so too does the attacker, providing the first building block in developing the ability to flow round defences rather than trying to blast through.
Daan Chi Sau is so valuable. Too bad so many quit it early. Multiple person attack, Chuen sau (threading hand) skills...damaged or broken limb recovery or defence. I try to do dan chi sau as often as possible. Nothing is as sweet as one hand controling two. Nothing develops this as well as good ol' daan chi sau.Daan chi sau extends the 'sphere' of defense significantly.

[LoneTiger108]

Daan Chi Sau is so valuable. Too bad so many quit it early. Multiple person attack, Chuen sau (threading hand) skills...damaged or broken limb recovery or defence. I try to do dan chi sau as often as possible. Nothing is as sweet as one hand controling two. Nothing develops this as well as good ol' daan chi sau.Daan chi sau extends the 'sphere' of defense significantly.

I so agree with the importance of a fully developed single hand interactive practice. It is what the whole of our first form is about in the beginning. :)

[Ali. R]

Daan Chi Sau is so valuable. Too bad so many quit it early. Multiple person attack, Chuen sau (threading hand) skills...damaged or broken limb recovery or defence. I try to do dan chi sau as often as possible. Nothing is as sweet as one hand controling two. Nothing develops this as well as good ol' daan chi sau.Daan chi sau extends the 'sphere' of defense significantly.

One can really take the don chi sao to another level from simply using every weapon -or- structure within the ‘Sil Lum Tao’ form and while using a moving stance you can really feel the energy spreading through your upper, lower extremities as it moves into the floor (when done right).

We’re all in such a hurry that the most important and simplest things go waaay over our heads from spending very little time in Sil Lum Tao; it should be mastered and not just studied (SLT).

Cheers,

[Frost]

umm did another thread from Kevin get deleted,....?:confused:

[k gledhill]

umm did another thread from Kevin get deleted,....?:confused:

Yeah, it served its purpose, gone back to youtube. Sad , wanna cry ?

[Frost]

Yeah, it served its purpose, gone back to youtube.

oh did someone dare to question PB's VT again?

Maybe you should put a disclaimer saying no comments of a negative or questioning variety will be tolerated, only those of blind obedience and love please that way we can save you all the time and effort it takes to keep deleting them :D

[k gledhill]

oh did someone dare to question PB's VT again?

Maybe you should put a disclaimer saying no comments of a negative or questioning variety will be tolerated, only those of blind obedience and love please that way we can save you all the time and effort it takes to keep deleting them :D

No , maybe I just delete it from ridiculous random posts, called moderating :D 177 views is fine, then nerd time with editing issues....give me a break.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Actually that thread was being trolled by "shang chi".
Although the fact that the son of FU Manchu was trolling your thread Kevin, should be a honour of sorts
LOL !

[Frost]

No , maybe I just delete it from ridiculous random posts, called moderating :D 177 views is fine, then nerd time with editing issues....give me a break.

whatever helps you sleep at night kev :)

[k gledhill]

whatever helps you sleep at night kev :)

Most gracious of you, at least you have a common theme, editing issues ? like random out of left field. :D

[k gledhill]

Actually that thread was being trolled by "shang chi".
Although the fact that the son of FU Manchu was trolling your thread Kevin, should be a honour of sorts
LOL !

:D.......I am getting too old to even bother with nerds.

[Frost]

bumper because it happened again, since someone was asking about anderson silvas wrestling coach and the thread disappeared, id thought id mention i bumped a thread about him in the MMA section, heres a pic of anderson doing wing chun to keep it wing chuney for you all

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m7o5m0FmQB1ru8vako1_500.jpg

[PalmStriker]

If you think that's a bummer, my pork-rice dumpling lineage/origin thread got deleted too. Not before I took my last bite, though. http://www.chinesefood01.com/dragon-boat-festival.html