The shot in MMA (aka the double leg)

[Frost]

When done properly is probably one of the safest takedowns you can do in MMA
That is all feel free to disagree I will not be deleting the thread don’t worry :)

[YouKnowWho]

In the beginner level, you may like to use single leg and double leg because it's easy to develop. When you have developed more grappling skills, you will prefer other moves.

You don't need to use both hands to shoot for "single leg". One hand should be enough. Your other hand can do a lot of other things.

[Frost]

the double leg is probably one of the hardest takedowns to actually get down correctly, but its also one of the most effective

your definition of a single let and mine are different

[YouKnowWho]

Of course if you can get both of your opponent's legs at the same time, it will be better than to get your opponent's one leg first and then to get his other leg after. Most of the time, your opponent's back leg is too far away from your reach. That's why old Chinese saying said, "Get both if you can, otherwise, get one first and get the other afterward". After you have obtained both of your opponent's legs, your opponent will have no legs left but to go down.

My definition of "single leg" is to capture your opponent's front leg into your hand (or arm).

[Frost]

It can be too far away, which is why in wrestling and MMA you quite often shoot a double by going to the knee to get the extra reach, which I believe in chinese wrestling is not allowed correct?
Yep different from my definition , for me a wrestling single is when you control and throw your opponent with his one leg, ether running the pipe, switching to a high crotch, tripping etc, it starts with both hands on the leg in order to gain control and be able to lift it, and the leg is the focus of the attack: single arm leg lifts don’t work that well the leg is too strong, and if we are talking lifting with the one arm and grabbing the waist with the other for a lift or throw, I don’t count that as a single leg attack but rather a version of the double for me a single leg attack starts and ends with his leg

[sanjuro_ronin]

Get in, get under, get control -lift and dump.
Poetry in motion.
It's all about range in my view.
It works when you are in the range that no expects you to shoot and tends to fail when you are ot of that range.
And the range I am talking about is grappling range at best and punching range at worse ( though BOTH ranges should be the same).

[Frost]

Get in, get under, get control -lift and dump.
Poetry in motion.
It's all about range in my view.
It works when you are in the range that no expects you to shoot and tends to fail when you are ot of that range.
And the range I am talking about is grappling range at best and punching range at worse ( though BOTH ranges should be the same).

so true, my wrestling coach teaches it from a collar tie up (that close) my MMA coach from hook punch distance, but both say the same thing if you cant touch the other guy you shouldnt be shooting

[sanjuro_ronin]

so true, my wrestling coach teaches it from a collar tie up (that close) my MMA coach from hook punch distance, but both say the same thing if you cant touch the other guy you shouldnt be shooting

And that, boys and girls, is why ANYTIME you see a "defense" for the shoot being done VS a guy OUTSIDE "punching/clinching range", it is a pretty silly defense that will work only the worse of "shooters".

[Frost]

And that, boys and girls, is why ANYTIME you see a "defense" for the shoot being done VS a guy OUTSIDE "punching/clinching range", it is a pretty silly defense that will work only the worse of "shooters".

yep there's a reason wrestlers sprawl, because if the shots done correctly he is in under your hips before you can react and you have to THEN defend as best you can

[YouKnowWho]

It can be too far away, which is why in wrestling and MMA you quite often shoot a double by going to the knee to get the extra reach, which I believe in chinese wrestling is not allowed correct?

It's allowed in Chinese wrestling but not too many Chinese wrestlers like to use it because the rule set. In Chinese wrestling, if any 2 points of your body besides your feet touch the ground, you lose that round. When you apply single and double, your body is so close to the ground. It's very easy for your oponent to put a bit downward pressure to force your hand, elbow, or knee to touch the ground. That will give your opponent an easy round and you don't want to do that.

Here is a picture to show that one guy shoots in and his opponent (my teacher) dragged him down and won the round. It's clear to see that his opponent had one hand and one knee on the ground and that round ended right there.

http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/3119/changtournament1.jpg

The referee in the above picture was Wang Zi-Ping.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wang_Zi-Ping

[YouKnowWho]

The wrestling single and double came from "sport" wrestling that kick and punch are not allowed. In "combat" environment where everything are allowed, the

- 抄(Chao) - under hook,
- 圈(Quan) - over hook,
- ...

are much safer than shooting. After you have tangled your opponent's arms, he cannot punch you at that particular moment.

[Frost]

The wrestling single and double came from "sport" wrestling that kick and punch are not allowed. In "combat" environment where everything are alowed, the under hook, over hook, ... are much safer than shooting. After you have tangled your opponent's arms, he cannot punch you at that particular moment.

i believe they came from catch originally where strikes were allowed

if the shots done right he wont be punching you he will be too busy trying not to fall on him bum

[YouKnowWho]

single arm leg lifts don’t work that well the leg is too strong,

When you push your opponent's upper body and make him to lean back, his leg will come off the ground and into your hand. There won't be much weight in that leg at that particular moment. Since you need one of your hands to do the "pushing", you have only one hand left and you can't afford to use both hands to reach to your opponent's single leg.

http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/2425/kneeseizecounterfootswe.jpg

IMO, how to make your opponent's leg to come into your hand is more important than how to reach to your opponent's leg. The goal may be the same but the pathes to get there are different.

[Happy Tiger]

When you push your opponent's upper body and make him to lean back, his leg will come off the ground and into your hand. There won't be much weight in that leg at that particular moment. Since you need one of your hands to do the "pushing", you have only one hand left and you can't afford to use both hands to reach to your opponent's single leg.

http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/2425/kneeseizecounterfootswe.jpg

IMO, how to make your opponent's leg to come into your hand is more important than how to reach to your opponent's leg. The goal may be the same but the pathes to get there are different.I like to control the chin and lever back to get that leg, sometimes.

[YouKnowWho]

I like to control the chin and lever back to get that leg, sometimes.

The

1. 托(Tuo) – chin,
2. 摀(Wu) – face,
3. 封(Feng) – Throat,
4. 抹(Mo) – forehead,
5. 捅(Tong) - shoulder,
6. 蓋(Gai) - upper arm,
7. ...

are all good contact points for "push". Since one will need one hand to push, Chinese wrestlers don't like to use both hands to grab the leading leg.

[Happy Tiger]

The

1. ?(Tuo) – chin,
2. ?(Wu) – face,
3. ?(Feng) – Throat,
4. ?(Mo) – forehead,
5. ?(Tong) - shoulder,
6. ?(Gai) - upper arm,
7. ...

are all good contact points for "push". Since one will need one hand to push, Chinese wrestlers don't like to use both hands to grab the leading leg.Nice...one oh one in Hapkido too

[bawang]

In the beginner level, you may like to use single leg and double leg because it's easy to develop. When you have developed more grappling skills, you will prefer other moves.

You don't need to use both hands to shoot for "single leg". One hand should be enough. Your other hand can do a lot of other things.

you say this because you are biased from shuai jiao. shuai jiao is manchu bukku wrestling, and manchus dont like leg holds.

(chinese were forbidden by law to wrestle)

[Wayfaring]

When done properly is probably one of the safest takedowns you can do in MMA
That is all feel free to disagree I will not be deleting the thread don’t worry :)

Yeah - it's the "when done properly" part that's the problem. The main sticking point I've seen with people is the difference between getting penetration with your hips so your upper body is close to vertical when driving through the takedown ("correct") vs. the head stuck out in a "guillotine me" position and trying to finish it with the upper body horizontal to the ground and trying to run fast to drive through ("incorrect").

[YouKnowWho]

you say this because you are biased from shuai jiao.
Common sense tell us that we should not expose out head under our opponent's attack. This common sense has nothing to do with style.

This is "抱腿(Bao Tui) - single leg" followed by "手别(Shou Bei) - hand block" which is very similiar to "double leg". Instead of "get both at the same time", you "get 1 first and get the other after".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imL5eGzivr4


"guillotine me".
That's exactly my concern. If your head is

- horizontal, your opponent can press your neck and drag you to the ground (or guillotine you).
- vertical, your opponent can press back on your forehead, the harder that you advance, the more pain that will be put on your neck.

It's risky in both cases. If you get a broken neck, you are finish for the rest of your life.

[Frost]

Common sense tell us that we should not expose out head under our opponent's attack. This common sense has nothing to do with style.

This is "抱腿(Bao Tui) - single leg" followed by "手别(Shou Bei) - hand block" which is very similiar to "double leg". Instead of "get both at the same time", you "get 1 first and get the other after".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imL5eGzivr4


That's exactly my concern. If your head is

- horizontal, your opponent can press your neck and drag you to the ground (or guillotine you).
- vertical, your opponent can press back on your forehead, the harder that you advance, the more pain that will be put on your neck.

It's risky in both cases. If you get a broken neck, you are finish for the rest of your life.

The reason I started this thread was because of this misinformed view of the double.. There have been 2 or at most 3 cases or a Brocken neck due to the double leg in the last 15 years, and these have been due to how you land NOT your opponent pushing your head backwards, this has never happened as far as I am aware, if you can site sources ill gladly read them, otherwise please keep the fantasy stuff to the wing chun forum :)

[Frost]

Yeah - it's the "when done properly" part that's the problem. The main sticking point I've seen with people is the difference between getting penetration with your hips so your upper body is close to vertical when driving through the takedown ("correct") vs. the head stuck out in a "guillotine me" position and trying to finish it with the upper body horizontal to the ground and trying to run fast to drive through ("incorrect").

Hence the “when done properly” thing, but id argue even when done incorrectly if you have enough momentum its still hard to finish the guillotine, the main problem I see in addition to what you are talking about is not using enough momentum people think they just need to get in on the legs, and pull or push and people will magically fall over (see YKWs clip below) you need to penetrate. and keep going…. run them through the cage wall you should aim to finish the double leg several feet past them ( by several I mean 5 or 6)

[sanjuro_ronin]

The guillotine is always an issue BUT because it IS an issue, one trains how to counter it.
If the person sprawls, like they should, then the guillotine is less of an issue.
If the person tries for the guillotine and the shoot is done "half assed" then there is a good chance that it will get sunk in ( if the defender knows how to do it).
If the shoot is done right AND the guy still tries for the guillotine it will be very hard for him to get the guard and without the guard, you have no guillotine.

[Frost]

The guillotine is always an issue BUT because it IS an issue, one trains how to counter it.
If the person sprawls, like they should, then the guillotine is less of an issue.
If the person tries for the guillotine and the shoot is done "half assed" then there is a good chance that it will get sunk in ( if the defender knows how to do it).
If the shoot is done right AND the guy still tries for the guillotine it will be very hard for him to get the guard and without the guard, you have no guillotine.

a former hawkeye had us practise the shot over and over, he was getting us to work on proper penetration and impact ….at the end he had us just bast through the guy, head outside straight back into the guard: the guillotine should have been easy, but when you are being slammed back 5 feet and the impact is so great that even on crash mats you lose your breath, it’s not that easy to guillotine people
Now am I advocating doing the shot incorrectly, no BUT with the proper attitude and penetration even done incorrectly you will still have a good chance of smashing the guy

[sanjuro_ronin]

a former hawkeye had us practise the shot over and over, he was getting us to work on proper penetration and impact ….at the end he had us just bast through the guy, head outside straight back into the guard: the guillotine should have been easy, but when you are being slammed back 5 feet and the impact is so great that even on crash mats you lose your breath, it’s not that easy to guillotine people
Now am I advocating doing the shot incorrectly, no BUT with the proper attitude and penetration even done incorrectly you will still have a good chance of smashing the guy

For sure, and when it is done in the right "range"...well...lets just say you hands are a bit occupied to get the guillotine in well enough.
The main thing that makes the guillotine work is the use of the legs to keep the opponent in place to apply and sink it in, when the shoot is done the right way and at the right range, those legs will under the control of the shooter.
Sure the DBL leg tends to put the defender in position to apply the guard but only IF the shooter just "lays there" after he gets the guy down.
Don't know many that do that, they typically control the legs and move in for side control or whatnot.

[Frost]

For sure, and when it is done in the right "range"...well...lets just say you hands are a bit occupied to get the guillotine in well enough.
The main thing that makes the guillotine work is the use of the legs to keep the opponent in place to apply and sink it in, when the shoot is done the right way and at the right range, those legs will under the control of the shooter.
Sure the DBL leg tends to put the defender in position to apply the guard but only IF the shooter just "lays there" after he gets the guy down.
Don't know many that do that, they typically control the legs and move in for side control or whatnot.

yep flair the legs out to side control is the standard tech as you say, and range is crucial again as you say (if only the wing chun forum was this civil!)

[MightyB]

I prefer the low single leg take down.

This vid (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5z1-X3l7j8) kind've demonstrates the basics of it, but if it's started close, set up properly, and executed fast, it's more of a leverage throw than the double and IMO is easier to execute and requires less strength.

[YouKnowWho]

The reason I started this thread was because of this misinformed view of the double.. There have been 2 or at most 3 cases or a Brocken neck due to the double leg in the last 15 years, and these have been due to how you land NOT your opponent pushing your head backwards, this has never happened as far as I am aware, if you can site sources ill gladly read them, otherwise please keep the fantasy stuff to the wing chun forum :)
Fantasy? That word doesn't exist in my dictionary. I have tried to bring others from the fantasy world back into the real world. The only thing that I believe is whether you can knock/throw me down or the other way around. I'm not the person who believe in any "snake engine", 6DFV, or the "spiritual world". The world that I'm living in can't be any more "real". :p

If both of your hands can push on your opponent's forehead, one of your fists will be able to hit on his face which will give you better result in MMA rullset. You run your head into your opponent's pushing hands. Same as you run into your opponent's punch/kick. It happens all the time in combat.

The "速(Su) – forehead push" principle had been used in the Chinese wrestling for over thousands years (where punch is not permitted in that sport). It's the #10 basic drills among the ancient 24 basic drills.

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/4583/foreheadpush.jpg

[Frost]

Fantasy? That word doesn't exist in my dictionary. I have tried to bring others from the fantasy world back into the real world. The only thing that I believe is whether you can knock/throw me down or the other way around. I'm not the person who believe in any "snake engine", 6DFV, or the "spiritual world". The world that I'm living in can't be any more "real". :p

If both of your hands can push on your opponent's forehead, one of your fists will be able to hit on his face which will give you better result in MMA rullset. You run your head into your opponent's pushing hands. Same as you run into your opponent's punch/kick. It happens all the time in combat.

The "速(Su) – forehead push" principle had been used in the Chinese wrestling for over thousands years (where punch is not permitted in that sport). It's the #10 basic drills among the ancient 24 basic drills.

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/4583/foreheadpush.jpg

please show me one example of a neck being snapped whilst shooting a double leg simply by the defender pushing their head backwards...that is what i said was fantasy ...whilst you are at it please show one example of the head being pushed back with one hand and hit with the other hand whilst shooting a double.....:)

[YouKnowWho]

please show me one example of a neck being snapped whilst shooting a double leg simply by the defender pushing their head backwards...that is what i said was fantasy ...whilst you are at it please show one example of the head being pushed back with one hand and hit with the other hand whilst shooting a double.....:)

Thing that have not happened doesn't mean that it won't happen.

[Frost]

Thing that have not happened doesn't mean that it won't happen.

true water might start running up hill soon, i mean its not happened yet but you never know....

well lets see, close to a century of competitive shots in both wrestling and MMA, no one has yet had this happen to them, its that’s not good enough for you them lord knows what is

[sanjuro_ronin]

Fantasy? That word doesn't exist in my dictionary. I have tried to bring others from the fantasy world back into the real world. The only thing that I believe is whether you can knock/throw me down or the other way around. I'm not the person who believe in any "snake engine", 6DFV, or the "spiritual world". The world that I'm living in can't be any more "real". :p

If both of your hands can push on your opponent's forehead, one of your fists will be able to hit on his face which will give you better result in MMA rullset. You run your head into your opponent's pushing hands. Same as you run into your opponent's punch/kick. It happens all the time in combat.

The "速(Su) – forehead push" principle had been used in the Chinese wrestling for over thousands years (where punch is not permitted in that sport). It's the #10 basic drills among the ancient 24 basic drills.

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/4583/foreheadpush.jpg

At best that MAY give you "whiplash" but it won't snap a thing.
The break or even dislocate a cervical vetebra, you need to do a very different action than that.
The worse case for that type of force is a compression, perhaps "chipping" of the vertebra.

[DeusEx]

The double leg is very similar to a rugby tackle. I’ve played rugby all my life and have never come across anyone breaking their neck from a ‘double leg style’ rugby tackle. Lots of other injuries mind, but no broken necks!

[sanjuro_ronin]

A tackle actually has far more momentum and would have far more potential for injury, that there are no "broken necks" due to bad tackles speaks volumes.

[YouKnowWho]

true water might start running up hill soon, i mean its not happened yet but you never know....

well lets see, close to a century of competitive shots in both wrestling and MMA, no one has yet had this happen to them, its that’s not good enough for you them lord knows what is

I didn't say that move will always cause injury, but it can interrupt your opponent's forward movement.

[ShaolinDan]

It's harder to stop a shooter's head under the MMA rule-set than it is in 'da street,' but that doesn't explain the differences with shuai jiao. I think in this case that it's all about whether or not knees can touch the ground.

[Frost]

I didn't say that move will always cause injury, but it can interrupt your opponent's forward movement.

sure show me any examples of this......

[YouKnowWho]

sure show me any examples of this......
I don't have clip for that.

How much damage will a "head on collision" have depends on

- speed,
- weight, and
- strength of the structure.

It's all relative and not absolutive. When your opponent moves toward you with great momentum, the weakest point is his neck. All MA principles are to use your strength to fight against your opponent's weakness. When the head goes, the body will follow.

[Wayfaring]

The double leg is very similar to a rugby tackle. I’ve played rugby all my life and have never come across anyone breaking their neck from a ‘double leg style’ rugby tackle. Lots of other injuries mind, but no broken necks!

Well, when you were a kid you probably were taught the fundamentals of a rugby tackle which includes taking a guy down to the opposite side of your head. Apparantly two or three rocket scientists have done this in MMA on the same side their head was resulting in spinal compression fractures.

[DeusEx]

Yes that’s true, you soon learn that if your head ends up between the ground and your opponent it’s going to hurt! Concussion being the likely outcome. Which goes back to Frost’s first sentence about the double leg: ”When done properly…”

[Frost]

I don't have clip for that.

How much damage will a "head on collision" have depends on

- speed,
- weight, and
- strength of the structure.

It's all relative and not absolutive. When your opponent moves toward you with great momentum, the weakest point is his neck. All MA principles are to use your strength to fight against your opponent's weakness. When the head goes, the body will follow.

Ok you said double legs runs the risk of having your head pushed back and your neck broke, since you see this as a risk it must follow you can list examples of it happening in reality, otherwise why see it as a risk?

Then you stated pushing the head back can stop the momentum of a double leg, again to state this you must have some factual evidence correct? Because although I don’t watch that much wrestling these days I do watch a fair bit of submission wrestling and MMA and have been in the game for over 10 years and I have never seen a double leg stopped in the manner you are talking about or even slowed down, let alone any injuires happen from it?

On a related note Grapplers bull the neck to shorten the lever arm they also angle the back and head to make pushing it harder and are moving too fast for you to easily push it back, this makes the defence you are talking about very low percentage and the injuries you are on about almost nonexistent as far as I’m aware

[Frost]

Yes that’s true, you soon learn that if your head ends up between the ground and your opponent it’s going to hurt! Concussion being the likely outcome. Which goes back to Frost’s first sentence about the double leg: ”When done properly…”

Thanks for spotting that bit of my sentence :)
Head on the same side of the tackle usually results in a stinger or as you say a knockout, the most broken necks I have seen seem to come in the front row, you have to be mad to be a hooker or prop lol

[DeusEx]

Yes tragically a number of players have suffered serious spinal injuries at scrum time; you would indeed have to be insane to want to play in the front row.

Thinking about stopping a rugby tackle, you can hand someone off in the face which sounds like what is being discussed here, again not heard of a broken neck from being handed off, accidental finger in the eye perhaps…

[Frost]

Yes tragically a number of players have suffered serious spinal injuries at scrum time; you would indeed have to be insane to want to play in the front row.

Thinking about stopping a rugby tackle, you can hand someone off in the face which sounds like what is being discussed here, again not heard of a broken neck from being handed off, accidental finger in the eye perhaps…

Yep stiff arm can work if they come in too high and are reaching for you, but then its not a proper tackle, and a double leg which should be even lower than a rugby tackle and happens typically at a much closer range with less reaction time.
I also I believe in rugby the stiff arm seems to work if the tackler is moving in the same direction as the attacker, ie you are side stepping to the left around him and he is driving to him right to tackle you as you go past , in other words you are not meeting force on force as in a double leg (unless your last name is tuilangi and then it works whenever you want it to lol)

[MightyB]

Something that dawned on me last night as I was passing a guillotine attempt is that no one brought up that it's not too difficult to pass a guillotine if you know how. In the short of it - get him on his back with your hips opposite their lock and walla - you have him in side control and he has an ineffectual over-hook. Youtube for details and practice. So why all the fear?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Something that dawned on me last night as I was passing a guillotine attempt is that no one brought up that it's not too difficult to pass a guillotine if you know how. In the short of it - get him on his back with your hips opposite their lock and walla - you have him in side control and he has an ineffectual over-hook. Youtube for details and practice. So why all the fear?

To be honest, I kind of assumed that everyone knows, by now, the the guillotine is not that big a deal.

[Frost]

Something that dawned on me last night as I was passing a guillotine attempt is that no one brought up that it's not too difficult to pass a guillotine if you know how. In the short of it - get him on his back with your hips opposite their lock and walla - you have him in side control and he has an ineffectual over-hook. Youtube for details and practice. So why all the fear?

Because someone read an article, mis quoted it and started a thread about how dangerous the double leg was and how it needed to be changed in light of all these accidents, when I pointed out how wrong they were, and how wrong said article was he deleted the thread in a huff, so I started this one!
You are correct and both ronin and I mentioned that the double normally ends in a flairing of the legs or a sideways drive so you out up outside the guard, its only if done incorrectly and you end up in guard it can be a problem, but even then done with proper momentum its hardly a game changer