What Could Happen If Your Chi Sau Is Poor

[Subitai]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gav4MKamCxU&feature=related

Ok 1st of all, obviously the title of the video is mislabeled. Of course chi sao is drilling not fighting and so to say "Insert title here"... is almost like saying chi sao is fighting.

If you have to worry about everything (like a double leg for example) then isn't it really just: "What could happen if your fighting skill is poor " instead of the original title?

Of course depending on a persons grappling skill...they might chew this video up.
It's at least good that they're trying to address this range.

Just browsing around ok...so sorry if this is old topics.

[Buddha_Fist]

Of course depending on a persons grappling skill...they might chew this video up. It's at least good that they're trying to address this range.

My beef with Ving Tsun schools trying to teach grappling is that the results are way too often sub-optimal. Ving Tsun is not grappling, but a Chinese boxing method. I prefer going to a wrestling, BJJ, or other grappling place for top notch grappling instruction. Go to the best people for the different aspects of the game.

[k gledhill]

Misrepresentation of Chi sao

[Frost]

Warning, im about to vent....

I cant comment on the chi sao, but the grappling was P*ss poor andso sh*t it wasnt even funny: he was wrong in so many ways its not even funny

the body lock takedown was cr%p you wont get the chance to just keep going because any half decent grappler, (ie not these two muppets) would keep control of the hips and put weight into you, not let go so you can spin out and look cool :confused:

The sprawl is not used when the opponent is far away, but when he is in on your hips and close, getting that fundermental aspect of the game so fecking wrong doesnt bode well ...as for the actual takedown how the hell he managed to NOT get any penetration from that range ill never know, no forward momentum, rubbish finish un realistic body angle, weight going down not forwards its all there...by that i mean everything you are ever told NOT to do by a grappling coach

As for the defence, no level change just stand strong and kick over there head, jesus did people actually pay for this seminar?

the single leg take down were better, although not enough level change and no one falls over like that, and i like the heel hook sweep but you probably need both feet on the hips to make it work,

as someone else said just go to a grappler for this stuff

[wingchunIan]

Warning, im about to vent....

I cant comment on the chi sao, but the grappling was P*ss poor andso sh*t it wasnt even funny: he was wrong in so many ways its not even funny

the body lock takedown was cr%p you wont get the chance to just keep going because any half decent grappler, (ie not these two muppets) would keep control of the hips and put weight into you, not let go so you can spin out and look cool :confused:

The sprawl is not used when the opponent is far away, but when he is in on your hips and close, getting that fundermental aspect of the game so fecking wrong doesnt bode well ...as for the actual takedown how the hell he managed to NOT get any penetration from that range ill never know, no forward momentum, rubbish finish un realistic body angle, weight going down not forwards its all there...by that i mean everything you are ever told NOT to do by a grappling coach

As for the defence, no level change just stand strong and kick over there head, jesus did people actually pay for this seminar?

the single leg take down were better, although not enough level change and no one falls over like that, and i like the heel hook sweep but you probably need both feet on the hips to make it work,

as someone else said just go to a grappler for this stuff

wonder when we'll see the kick over takedown defence in the UFC.......

[Frost]

wonder when we'll see the kick over takedown defence in the UFC.......

right aout ths same time we see them simply rolling out of the bodylock takedown and standing up like nothing happened......

[Chadderz]

I thought it was alright, and I'm a grappler.

[Frost]

I thought it was alright, and I'm a grappler.

oh snap me too, 10 years in submission grappling, and i think it sucked

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Subitai;1172263]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gav4MKamCxU&feature=related

Ok 1st of all, obviously the title of the video is mislabeled. Of course chi sao is drilling not fighting and so to say "Insert title here"... is almost like saying chi sao is fighting.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There is no chi sao there to begin with.
Agree with Kevin on the chi sao and Frost on the grappling.

joy chaudhuri

[Wayfaring]

OK - I've held off from commenting on this for a few reasons, but I'll dig into it.

First off, the concept in the video is absolutely correct. He is trying to address the openings that you can leave in chi sau for a good grappler. The fact that he is dealing with this topic, and delving into it to me is very good. For that reason, and because I think more should do this kind of experimentation, I am going to allow the guy some leeway in the crap detail of his groundwork. To the guy/team that made the video I would say - "great concept - now get someone to teach you/work out the details / specifics who actually has good ground fundamentals.

This brings up the reasonable point - do you really need to do all this mumbo jumbo to fix holes in your chi sau? (I'm also not going to take on the main topic I've been commenting on for the last 2 months - difference between chi sau and fighting - valid point but I don't need to make it again). IMO I think you can shut down angles for the body lock takedown as well as the double leg and single leg by practice and improving against that type of movement by training chi sau. (OK - yes I realize that now hell must have frozen over because I made that comment).
But my point is that great grapplers train grip fighting for this exact type of thing. So to train your chi sau to have similar energies against grappling grip fighting I think is an absolute must if you are going to fight in clinch range. I also think you should train chi sau with good grapplers all the way to the takedown, then reset. I also think you should train chi sau sessions by setting 3 min on the timer and setting the chi sau game goal to be to clinch and take down the opponent. This will give good realistic parameters to your training exercises.

Next, let's get to the mechanics. The body lock takedown first. Frost wrote


the body lock takedown was cr%p you wont get the chance to just keep going because any half decent grappler, (ie not these two muppets) would keep control of the hips and put weight into you, not let go so you can spin out and look cool

I partially agree with this. I actually thought the entry part of the movement was all right. To initiate that grab from elbow position is good. The entry and step to the body lock was good. The trip was OK - mediocre.

After that it all degrades. For better pressure and control on the takedown, first after the entry step the gable grip needs to be locked around the waist tighter to prevent movement like the ridiculous rollout he was teaching. Next, need to get hips into the guys center, otherwise more athletic guys will just power through and step over the takedown. Hips into center includes the near knee pressuring his near leg breaking the alignment of the posture. After the leg trip, you should prevent the rollout and secure side control.

The rollout defense to that is iffy. Concept wise if an opponent initiates movement in a takedown, you can load up and continue the movement once it hits the ground - this is true a lot of places. However, the details on the video are complete @$$. Wrestlers will granby roll out of that takedown.

Next the double-leg takedown. Ignore 100% of the detail on the video. The kickover defense is about the stupidest approach to defending the double that I have ever seen (although I am going to pull that one off in sparring just for laughs and to punk my sparring opponent). Rather than intricate critique's of singles and doubles, just get with a competant wrestler (i.e. someone who competed in college - HS level doesn't have good enough instruction mostly), and learn the movements and the defenses. Once you have some reps in, it should be easy to add that into your bridge training. Oh - the guys double - he is almost taking the guy down to the side his head is on, which you should avoid as accidents from that position could lead to spinal compression fractures and severe complications.

After he hits the ground - from guard he is almost right. He talks about keeping the opponent tight - putting feet on the hips and kicking to produce distance and standing up. That is right. If you have someone in your guard, control posture by holding them tightly to you to minimize strike damage, if they draw a fist back put a foot in the hip and fill that space. A strong kick with feet on the hips and a good technical standup is how I would train WCK non-grapplers to deal with takedowns and working from their back(actually I'd teach them a funk defense also).

The single leg takedown and defense are cr@p too. The details are very bad. The "escape" he shows is very close to a heel hook submission. If you're going to that trouble to escape you might as well destroy a knee and end the fight.

In general the problem with his detail is he's worked out the sequences on compliant partners, and has low level of ground skill. And he's teaching a seminar and videoing it.

So overall - I like that he is addressing the ground game with students and attempting to do something. However, he doesn't know what he's doing.

Guys - stuff like this kind of leaves me mixed. It's a good idea and really stupid at the same time.

If you are going to do seminars, training sessions, etc. for your guys on ground topics why don't you just hire a BJJ black belt or collegiate wrestler to come in and do that portion of it? Meet with them ahead of time, plan things out. IMO you'll have a lot better success, plus more contacts to try the stuff out against.

My .02.

[k gledhill]

OK - I've held off from commenting on this for a few reasons, but I'll dig into it.

First off, the concept in the video is absolutely correct. He is trying to address the openings that you can leave in chi sau for a good grappler. The fact that he is dealing with this topic, and delving into it to me is very good. For that reason, and because I think more should do this kind of experimentation, I am going to allow the guy some leeway in the crap detail of his groundwork. To the guy/team that made the video I would say - "great concept - now get someone to teach you/work out the details / specifics who actually has good ground fundamentals.

This brings up the reasonable point - do you really need to do all this mumbo jumbo to fix holes in your chi sau? (I'm also not going to take on the main topic I've been commenting on for the last 2 months - difference between chi sau and fighting - valid point but I don't need to make it again). IMO I think you can shut down angles for the body lock takedown as well as the double leg and single leg by practice and improving against that type of movement by training chi sau. (OK - yes I realize that now hell must have frozen over because I made that comment).
But my point is that great grapplers train grip fighting for this exact type of thing. So to train your chi sau to have similar energies against grappling grip fighting I think is an absolute must if you are going to fight in clinch range. I also think you should train chi sau with good grapplers all the way to the takedown, then reset. I also think you should train chi sau sessions by setting 3 min on the timer and setting the chi sau game goal to be to clinch and take down the opponent. This will give good realistic parameters to your training exercises.

Next, let's get to the mechanics. The body lock takedown first. Frost wrote

I partially agree with this. I actually thought the entry part of the movement was all right. To initiate that grab from elbow position is good. The entry and step to the body lock was good. The trip was OK - mediocre.

After that it all degrades. For better pressure and control on the takedown, first after the entry step the gable grip needs to be locked around the waist tighter to prevent movement like the ridiculous rollout he was teaching. Next, need to get hips into the guys center, otherwise more athletic guys will just power through and step over the takedown. Hips into center includes the near knee pressuring his near leg breaking the alignment of the posture. After the leg trip, you should prevent the rollout and secure side control.

The rollout defense to that is iffy. Concept wise if an opponent initiates movement in a takedown, you can load up and continue the movement once it hits the ground - this is true a lot of places. However, the details on the video are complete @$$. Wrestlers will granby roll out of that takedown.

Next the double-leg takedown. Ignore 100% of the detail on the video. The kickover defense is about the stupidest approach to defending the double that I have ever seen (although I am going to pull that one off in sparring just for laughs and to punk my sparring opponent). Rather than intricate critique's of singles and doubles, just get with a competant wrestler (i.e. someone who competed in college - HS level doesn't have good enough instruction mostly), and learn the movements and the defenses. Once you have some reps in, it should be easy to add that into your bridge training. Oh - the guys double - he is almost taking the guy down to the side his head is on, which you should avoid as accidents from that position could lead to spinal compression fractures and severe complications.

After he hits the ground - from guard he is almost right. He talks about keeping the opponent tight - putting feet on the hips and kicking to produce distance and standing up. That is right. If you have someone in your guard, control posture by holding them tightly to you to minimize strike damage, if they draw a fist back put a foot in the hip and fill that space. A strong kick with feet on the hips and a good technical standup is how I would train WCK non-grapplers to deal with takedowns and working from their back(actually I'd teach them a funk defense also).

The single leg takedown and defense are cr@p too. The details are very bad. The "escape" he shows is very close to a heel hook submission. If you're going to that trouble to escape you might as well destroy a knee and end the fight.

In general the problem with his detail is he's worked out the sequences on compliant partners, and has low level of ground skill. And he's teaching a seminar and videoing it.

So overall - I like that he is addressing the ground game with students and attempting to do something. However, he doesn't know what he's doing.

Guys - stuff like this kind of leaves me mixed. It's a good idea and really stupid at the same time.

If you are going to do seminars, training sessions, etc. for your guys on ground topics why don't you just hire a BJJ black belt or collegiate wrestler to come in and do that portion of it? Meet with them ahead of time, plan things out. IMO you'll have a lot better success, plus more contacts to try the stuff out against.

My .02.

Cracks in chi-sao for a grappler....here we go, that statement alone is laughable.

[Wayfaring]

Cracks in chi-sao for a grappler....here we go, that statement alone is laughable.

Actually, your obnoxious sniping at thought-out content is what is laughable.

It's very evident that you have put none of the work in I am talking about in this area. Yes, your bridge work developed by chi sau should be able to function against the grip fighting of a competant wrestler.

[k gledhill]

Actually, your obnoxious sniping at thought-out content is what is laughable.

It's very evident that you have put none of the work in I am talking about in this area. Yes, your bridge work developed by chi sau should be able to function against the grip fighting of a competant wrestler.


Let me get this right, you think I chi-sao to deal with grappling by rolling my arms at you ?

[k gledhill]

My beef with Ving Tsun schools trying to teach grappling is that the results are way too often sub-optimal. Ving Tsun is not grappling, but a Chinese boxing method. I prefer going to a wrestling, BJJ, or other grappling place for top notch grappling instruction. Go to the best people for the different aspects of the game.

Agree, product of misinformed $ grabbers, jumping on the latest fad, "we have that in our system too" syndrome.
Ninjitsu ? we had that. Catch wrestling ? came from our system ;), yeah not many know that little gem, sign here....:o

[JPinAZ]

Cracks in chi-sao for a grappler....here we go, that statement alone is laughable.

I think your cheap shot at Wayfarings well written and backed-up post and reasoning is pretty weak. He's spot on all the way thru and gives very detailed reasons for what he sees. And this is all you have to say? :rolleyes:

[k gledhill]

I think your cheap shot at Wayfarings well written and backed-up post and reasoning is pretty weak. He's spot on all the way thru and gives very detailed reasons for what he sees. And this is all you have to say? :rolleyes:

So you see Chi sao as a grappling thing too?

[GlennR]

So you see Chi sao as a grappling thing too?

Maybe not grappling as such but it's certainly in grappling range most of the time, ergo you have to know how to deal with grappling attempts

[k gledhill]

Maybe not grappling as such but it's certainly in grappling range most of the time, ergo you have to know how to deal with grappling attempts

Not grappling. It's not even how we would approach a grappler,
head on with two arms out. Classic invention based on misinformation of Chi sao.

[Wayfaring]

Let me get this right, you think I chi-sao to deal with grappling by rolling my arms at you ?

You're not even close. Maybe Bing translator can add a language English to dumb@$$ so that you can better understand my posts.

[Wayfaring]

Maybe not grappling as such but it's certainly in grappling range most of the time, ergo you have to know how to deal with grappling attempts

This guy apparantly speaks English and understands my posts.

[Wayfaring]

So you see Chi sao as a grappling thing too?

So much fail in so few words.

Not my view of chi sau.

[k gledhill]

You're not even close. Maybe Bing translator can add a language English to dumb@$$ so that you can better understand my posts.

Ah yes the response of a guy who is trying to recoup his earlier gaff....All that work you did too. :rolleyes:


Your words
So to train your chi sau to have similar energies against grappling grip fighting I think is an absolute must if you are going to fight in clinch range. I also think you should train chi sau with good grapplers all the way to the takedown, then reset. I also think you should train chi sau sessions by setting 3 min on the timer and setting the chi sau game goal to be to clinch and take down the opponent. This will give good realistic parameters to your training exercises.

[k gledhill]

So much fail in so few words.

Not my view of chi sau.

you wrote this:
So to train your chi sau to have similar energies against grappling grip fighting I think is an absolute must if you are going to fight in clinch range. I also think you should train chi sau with good grapplers all the way to the takedown, then reset. I also think you should train chi sau sessions by setting 3 min on the timer and setting the chi sau game goal to be to clinch and take down the opponent. This will give good realistic parameters to your training exercises.
:confused:

[GlennR]

Not grappling. It's not even how we would approach a grappler,
head on with two arms out. Classic invention based on misinformation of Chi sao.

Ok, he has forced the action, has contact with both your arms at clinch range, and is about to grapple with you...... Response?

[Wayfaring]

you wrote this:
So to train your chi sau to have similar energies against grappling grip fighting I think is an absolute must if you are going to fight in clinch range. I also think you should train chi sau with good grapplers all the way to the takedown, then reset. I also think you should train chi sau sessions by setting 3 min on the timer and setting the chi sau game goal to be to clinch and take down the opponent. This will give good realistic parameters to your training exercises.
:confused:

Yes, here I'm suggesting an addition to chi sau training to build skills to deal with a grappling grip-fighting attack.

What part of this confuses you?

[GlennR]

Yes, here I'm suggesting an addition to chi sau training to build skills to deal with a grappling grip-fighting attack.

What part of this confuses you?

Good question.

[Sean66]

I also think you should train chi sau with good grapplers all the way to the takedown, then reset.

Why not just train grappling with good grapplers?

[GlennR]

Why not just train grappling with good grapplers?

Well then you're just grappling.... isn't this about a WC response to a grappler's approach?

[Frost]

Well then you're just grappling.... isn't this about a WC response to a grappler's approach?
is it though?

from an outside perspective it seems people dont agree on what chi sau is for, so some seem to see it as training close range fighting (in which case it should also deal with clinch and grappling) and others seem to see it as a way to train specific fighting attributes that are not range related, in which case adding grappling would seem silly

of course that means for a supposedly simple style it is really f*king complicated

[GlennR]

is it though?

from an outside perspective it seems people dont agree on what chi sau is for, so some seem to see it as training close range fighting (in which case it should also deal with clinch and grappling) and others seem to see it as a way to train specific fighting attributes that are not range related, in which case adding grappling would seem silly

of course that means for a supposedly simple style it is really f*king complicated

Well if it was so simple the forum would be short lived ;)

For me WC is a method of self defense where striking is the main weapon delivered at a short range in comparison to most striking styles. It lives in that grey area/range between striking and grappling, so when i see the clip at the beginning of this thread i see (as did wayfaring) what they are trying to achieve. A bit of it was rubbish but cudos for their take on it

[Frost]

Well if it was so simple the forum would be short lived ;)

For me WC is a method of self defense where striking is the main weapon delivered at a short range in comparison to most striking styles. It lives in that grey area/range between striking and grappling, so when i see the clip at the beginning of this thread i see (as did wayfaring) what they are trying to achieve. A bit of it was rubbish but cudos for their take on it

heck i thought fighting was simple until i found the wing chun forum :)
for me i agree with you, thats how i view the short arm stuff i do and clinch and grappling is added to close range sparring because its natural, but then i have a grappling background as does my sifu and the clinch has always been my favourite area to train.

Adding the short hand stuff there is just a natural process for me

[GlennR]

heck i thought fighting was simple until i found the wing chun forum :)
for me i agree with you, thats how i view the short arm stuff i do and clinch and grappling is added to close range sparring because its natural, but then i have a grappling background as does my sifu and the clinch has always been my favourite area to train.

Adding the short hand stuff there is just a natural process for me

Exactly... it suits your grappling background and ,in my case, suits my current pursuit of MT mixed with boxing.... there's both overlap and sometimes some gaps filled both ways in regards to the styles.

When i started MT i instantly felt comfortable in the clinch range, its my range due to my WC training, and i just dont get Kev having a shot at people having their take on the overlap of styles... the case in point being wayfarings chi-sao to grappling comments

But hey, PB knows best ;)

[k gledhill]

VT is a striking system. Never in chi-sao drills are we trying to feel, follow and apply pressure to other arms as a support base, this is chasing hands. Many havent got a real idea of the purpose of chi-sao so they open it up to all kinds of inventions for lack of knowing. Its a much more mobile and alive drill with footwork many havent achieved for simply not knowing how to move, where to angle to. All for building intuitive responses WITHOUT wanting to touch a person, except for a fist to the face or two with a kick.

Many get stuck in a game of pressure exchanges with arms that only work when under pressure of the opponents, so they try to do this during fights too for the control factor , over trapping, sticking.... Iow incorrect idea of allowing an opponent to use your arm as a place to issue force on you. You want to put force on my arm, you have to know how ;) Who stands in one spot and fights by extending two arms looking for pressure ? We start drills from the center of a clock face, but end up all over the face of it, randomly. Many never leave the starting blocks :o

Yip Man and WSL where not big guys. They where fast and mobile, having countless hours of training taking shots into the openings of guys trying to use force on them, chasing their arms as a bridge to their body, mistake :D

We have a form BG, that teaches how to remove grabbing hands to recover striking hands, not too be a grappler.


Someone who is looking at Ving Tsun and has not spent enough time with a teacher, probably will not know enough footwork. He will not understand the mobility involved in Ving Tsun, the angles of attack, the kicks in all situations. He will therefore want to add kicks for all situations.He will therefore want to add something else to the style that he thinks is better for the sake of not knowing.
(Wong Shun Leung)

[k gledhill]

Exactly... it suits your grappling background and ,in my case, suits my current pursuit of MT mixed with boxing.... there's both overlap and sometimes some gaps filled both ways in regards to the styles.

When i started MT i instantly felt comfortable in the clinch range, its my range due to my WC training, and i just dont get Kev having a shot at people having their take on the overlap of styles... the case in point being wayfarings chi-sao to grappling comments

But hey, PB knows best ;)

I am not having a go at the grappling, I read Frosts input and Wayfarings grappling, just the chi-sao as a base for overlapping, oil & water thinking based on pressure versus pressure of arms. Its easily shown to be a futile experience of trying to attack my arm, I do it to guys who come and visit me without hurting them. Everyone sees it immediately, they are or have been shown chi-sao as a feeling base to place pressure on a complying partner who is also putting pressure on your arms....take the arms away and ask them to move around and use this method to hit you too....and it gets funny quickly.
They move in distances to touch hands , they move in front of you but too far to hit you, you slip sideways and offer an arm as bait for them to touch and take it away at the last second and they go flying past you trying to grab it, feel it, leaving them wide open to following counters.
Like a boxer over swings a guy who simply ducks, only vt simply take the leading arm away from the ensuing arm assault :D
Like having your arms attacked ....not your head ;) the head becomes a secondary idea.
Not enough bag and pad work or sparring to see that without proper focus , the arms take over as the be all end all, furthering the redundant ideas of grappling with chi-sao etc...

VT is simple to understand but very difficult to maintain without focus on striking over feeling etc.
moving and angling to a grapplers rush to shoot based on the leading arm and the following arm to a tactical position, without thinking [chi-sao allows high mindless reps]. Chi-sao has given me an ability to read movement before any contact and move intuitively to strike directly as it happens, not to touch your arms first...

[k gledhill]

WSL What Beimo has taught me , excerpt :

But now I would like to discuss the most common mistakes made by Ving Tsun practitioners so we can learn to avoid them. Chi Sau The chi Sau (sticky hands) exercise is a reflex training drill that must be practiced repeatedly to develop skillful, quick and alert responses to satisfy the basic, essential requirements of the Ving Tsun system (i.e., intercept what comes; pursue what departs; when the hands arefreed of obstructions, attack instinctively). These are basic but profound principles which, when properly understood and drilled through chi Sau, prepare the Ving Tsun practitioner both mentally as well as physically for what should take place when one engages with the enemy and so, one gets into the contact condition from the very start.
If detailed explanations are not given to the novice student, he will tend to overindulge the skill of ChiSau, inventing his own interpretations until he ends up following a totally incorrect form of Chi Sau which leads them straying from the intended path.
For example, too much emphasis on the idea of "sticking to the hands" will cause such bad habits as "chasing the hands" of the opponent and thus totally contradict one of Ving Tsun’s most basic fighting principles.
At the beginning of the "young idea" (siu nim tau) form, one is taught the concept of "chi ying", or facing the opponent square-on, to facilitate favourable positioning even before the fight has commenced, allowing punches to be thrown along the shortest possible line with the most direct attack made on the opponent prior to contact being made with each other .
Never is one asked in the basic form to consider doing "sticky hands" with the enemy; the range of motion possible by the hands is so wide that if one goes about"chasing the hands", the result is like a children's game – you go left because he makes a sudden turn left, then you go right as he does. The result is that you always allow your enemy to dictate your actions, ending up in a passive position and unable to attack your intended target so,
when fighting, one should fix one's eyes firmly on the target with only one idea in mind; that of attacking the enemy most simply and directly. Fight the opponent, not his arms.
It is only if your attack meets with an obstruction that you have to change to attain your goal and this is where "sticky hands" comes into play as a means to an end....

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=k gledhill;1172404]VT is a striking system.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not just a striking system.

joy chaudhuri

[Sean66]

Nice posts, Kevin. And thanks for adding that quote from Wong. Very instructive.

Guys, I don't think Philipp would ever say that he "knows best". And I'm sure Kevin isn't saying that either. He's just trying to explain the Wong "way" of chi sau, the focus of which is definitely not sticking to and following arms.

In WSL ving tsun, the end goal is to be able to strike and control your opponent at the same time, cutting off his counter-attacking possibilities, including grappling.

I myself love stuff like grappling, throwing and ground fighting (although I'm not that good at it), but I have to admit that these things are not included in the WSL curriculum.
That's why I invite specialists from these areas to work with me and my students.

[k gledhill]

Nice posts, Kevin. And thanks for adding that quote from Wong. Very instructive.

Guys, I don't think Philipp would ever say that he "knows best". And I'm sure Kevin isn't saying that either. He's just trying to explain the Wong "way" of chi sau, the focus of which is definitely not sticking to and following arms.

In WSL ving tsun, the end goal is to be able to strike and control your opponent at the same time, cutting off his counter-attacking possibilities, including grappling.

I myself love stuff like grappling, throwing and ground fighting (although I'm not that good at it), but I have to admit that these things are not included in the WSL curriculum.
That's why I invite specialists from these areas to work with me and my students.

Thanks. I used to do a pressure seeking arm chi-sao too, so I know first hand the pitfalls.

[Vajramusti]

Sean- The WSL quote is fine- but it does not completely support Kevin's points or yours.

Correct that you fight the opponent not his arms.

If one develop one's wc structure - it good not just for striking but for other functions as well.

joy chaudhuri

[k gledhill]

[QUOTE=k gledhill;1172404]VT is a striking system.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not just a striking system.

joy chaudhuri

It IS primarily a striking system. Your turn :)

[Wayfaring]

Why not just train grappling with good grapplers?
The short answer is I do, and this is a good recommendation.

However, most in the forum don't. Why? They don't see the value, their WCK is complete in their minds and it isn't necessary, time, money, etc. So I am advocating bridging the gap by adding in some drills.

IMO the goal of WCK and the sticky hands is to control the bridge WHILE MAINTAINING A STRIKING FOCUS.

[k gledhill]

Sean- The WSL quote is fine- but it does not completely support Kevin's points or yours.

Correct that you fight the opponent not his arms.

If one develop one's wc structure - it good not just for striking but for other functions as well.

joy chaudhuri


To support my point , I have sparred and exchanged personally with a guy from your lineage, in a friendly manner, he saw the hand chasing he was doing. All I did was not play his game...its not hard to spar for a few seconds without taking teeth out simply to show an error.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1172412]

It IS primarily a striking system. Your turn :)
-----------------------------------------------------------------

I try not to comment on your generalizations.

joy chaudhuri

[k gledhill]

The short answer is I do, and this is a good recommendation.

However, most in the forum don't. Why? They don't see the value, their WCK is complete in their minds and it isn't necessary, time, money, etc. So I am advocating bridging the gap by adding in some drills.

IMO the goal of WCK and the sticky hands is to control the bridge WHILE MAINTAINING A STRIKING FOCUS.

Yes we can maintain control while striking, no argument there. But it isnt soley to control with one arm and hit with another. We call this double teaming a single arm, no skills there, anyone outside a bar will do this :D

[k gledhill]

[QUOTE=k gledhill;1172419]
-----------------------------------------------------------------

I try not to comment on your generalizations.

joy chaudhuri

Whatever floats your boat.

[Wayfaring]

VT is a striking system. Never in chi-sao drills are we trying to feel, follow and apply pressure to other arms as a support base, this is chasing hands. Many havent got a real idea of the purpose of chi-sao so they open it up to all kinds of inventions for lack of knowing. Its a much more mobile and alive drill with footwork many havent achieved for simply not knowing how to move, where to angle to. All for building intuitive responses WITHOUT wanting to touch a person, except for a fist to the face or two with a kick.

So this response I can work with and exchange ideas.

I am not advocating chi-sao drills to feel, follow, apply pressure to other arms. I'm simply advocating training chi sau and closing holes where a grappler can enter and get grips.

If you are working with a competant wrestler, then the idea of "chasing hands vs. chasing center" really doesn't have a lot of application. Good wrestlers don't chase hands and they are consistently coming at your center, like good WCK practitioners.

For instance, due to my grappling background, when I chi sau with a "normal" WCK person, all looks normal except for when there are openings, many times the person gives me a normal flow into a takedown series. I can choose to strike them, or lock up and take them down into the ground game.

When I'm sparring (strikes and ground) I need to shut down good wrestlers takedown attempts. This is usually done at the bridge, contact point, and has a lot of similarities and feeds in from the standard chi sau contact.



Yip Man and WSL where not big guys. They where fast and mobile, having countless hours of training taking shots into the openings of guys trying to use force on them, chasing their arms as a bridge to their body, mistake :D

IMO this is all the more reason to perfect "anti-grappling" or "anti-gripfighting" hands. A size disadvantage bodes better for the striker than the grappler.


We have a form BG, that teaches how to remove grabbing hands to recover striking hands, not too be a grappler.

If you think a form can teach you all the skills necessary to deal with competant wrestling entries, then you are living in fantasy land.


Someone who is looking at Ving Tsun and has not spent enough time with a teacher, probably will not know enough footwork. He will not understand the mobility involved in Ving Tsun, the angles of attack, the kicks in all situations. He will therefore want to add kicks for all situations.He will therefore want to add something else to the style that he thinks is better for the sake of not knowing.
(Wong Shun Leung)

I can say the same for almost 100% of the WCK techniques I've seen on the internet for dealing with wrestling/grappling entries. People showing counters to takedowns, and the takedowns are executed by someone who doesn't know how to do one, like in the thread video on the original post on this thread.

Chi sau training has a number of drill variations of focus - from elbow position, to drilling the horse, to sensing a weak side of the bridge, many variations. I'm not even advocating adding anything to those - just doing some drilling with a particular focus to close some of the holes I see commonly.

[k gledhill]

So this response I can work with and exchange ideas.

I am not advocating chi-sao drills to feel, follow, apply pressure to other arms. I'm simply advocating training chi sau and closing holes where a grappler can enter and get grips.

If you are working with a competant wrestler, then the idea of "chasing hands vs. chasing center" really doesn't have a lot of application. Good wrestlers don't chase hands and they are consistently coming at your center, like good WCK practitioners.

For instance, due to my grappling background, when I chi sau with a "normal" WCK person, all looks normal except for when there are openings, many times the person gives me a normal flow into a takedown series. I can choose to strike them, or lock up and take them down into the ground game.

When I'm sparring (strikes and ground) I need to shut down good wrestlers takedown attempts. This is usually done at the bridge, contact point, and has a lot of similarities and feeds in from the standard chi sau contact.


IMO this is all the more reason to perfect "anti-grappling" or "anti-gripfighting" hands. A size disadvantage bodes better for the striker than the grappler.

If you think a form can teach you all the skills necessary to deal with competant wrestling entries, then you are living in fantasy land.


I can say the same for almost 100% of the WCK techniques I've seen on the internet for dealing with wrestling/grappling entries. People showing counters to takedowns, and the takedowns are executed by someone who doesn't know how to do one, like in the thread video on the original post on this thread.

Chi sau training has a number of drill variations of focus - from elbow position, to drilling the horse, to sensing a weak side of the bridge, many variations. I'm not even advocating adding anything to those - just doing some drilling with a particular focus to close some of the holes I see commonly.

You're seeing through another mindset into a drill created for a purpose too empower the ideas of another mindset.

I cant change that.

[Vajramusti]

You're seeing through another mindset into a drill created for a purpose too empower the ideas of another mindset.

I cant change that.
-----------------------------------------------------

Often in forum discussions- the fundamental POVs are considerably different.

joy chaudhuri

[k gledhill]

-----------------------------------------------------

Often in forum discussions- the fundamental POVs are considerably different.

joy chaudhuri

Granted. Talking with hands is not typing :D

[Wayfaring]

You're seeing through another mindset into a drill created for a purpose too empower the ideas of another mindset.

I can see why you're saying that, but it doesn't seem that way to me. Of course this is due to the time I've put in on the ground. To me in action there is no confusion but just a simple flow taking what is given to you.

For example, in the course of an average mixing it up chi sau round where there is good movement, if I find myself in a position where I can affect opponent's center thru a body lock takedown, but would have to adjust a few inches to punch center, I'll do the more natural movement. The converse is true also.

This is actually WHY I'm advocating these drills or drill adaptions. For the average WCK practitioner, they are not going to cross-train ground. So to maintain the striking mindset from close quarters, it's imperative to be able to close some holes and not give up clinching.

If you are trying to visualize the movement, take a look at the first few seconds of the video again. Can you see how just a fraction of a second grip on that inside elbow leads to that body lock? Can you see how you could pak the opposite elbow from bridge contact to free up the space for that inside elbow grab? Shutting down that kind of stuff is what I'm after.

[Wayfaring]

-----------------------------------------------------

Often in forum discussions- the fundamental POVs are considerably different.

joy chaudhuri

Does Fong teach anti-grappling or preventing the clinch? Any specifics?

To me content is more valuable than one-liner more obvious statements.

[k gledhill]

I can see why you're saying that, but it doesn't seem that way to me. Of course this is due to the time I've put in on the ground. To me in action there is no confusion but just a simple flow taking what is given to you.

For example, in the course of an average mixing it up chi sau round where there is good movement, if I find myself in a position where I can affect opponent's center thru a body lock takedown, but would have to adjust a few inches to punch center, I'll do the more natural movement. The converse is true also.

This is actually WHY I'm advocating these drills or drill adaptions. For the average WCK practitioner, they are not going to cross-train ground. So to maintain the striking mindset from close quarters, it's imperative to be able to close some holes and not give up clinching.

If you are trying to visualize the movement, take a look at the first few seconds of the video again. Can you see how just a fraction of a second grip on that inside elbow leads to that body lock? Can you see how you could pak the opposite elbow from bridge contact to free up the space for that inside elbow grab? Shutting down that kind of stuff is what I'm after.

I never said you cant do this, just clarifying a mindset that wont mix in the same drill. Iow MY focus is never to go into your mindset. Movement and space is also involved with knives and mindless life or death scenarios whereby moving into an arc of a following knife is an end. So we maintain this 'thinking' beyond chi-sao to greater distances of blades.
I love BJJ, catch, etc... not saying anything negative about that. :D
I advocate grappling by an instructor who knows his thing. I would never try to incorporate another idea into the drills . I would in sparring due to the change of action . But maintaining a clarity of purpose is essential in the drills, to ME :D

[Vajramusti]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gav4MKamCxU&feature=related

Ok 1st of all, obviously the title of the video is mislabeled. Of course chi sao is drilling not fighting and so to say "Insert title here"... is almost like saying chi sao is fighting.

If you have to worry about everything (like a double leg for example) then isn't it really just: "What could happen if your fighting skill is poor " instead of the original title?

Of course depending on a persons grappling skill...they might chew this video up.
It's at least good that they're trying to address this range.

Just browsing around ok...so sorry if this is old topics.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
I looked at the video startup again. They just have their hands out- there is no chi sao.

joy chaudhuri

[k gledhill]

-------------------------------------------------------------------
I looked at the video startup again. They just have their hands out- there is no chi sao.

joy chaudhuri

There is no pre fight anything...think about it, they are starting a fight by being static to the rush of random entry, no angling , to even create a reason for the guy to recover and start again...like, here I am dead and not moving, oh wow, now I am being taken down, **** I should have stuck to you arm and felt your intentions sooner :D

silly.

[Eric_H]

There is no pre fight anything...think about it, they are starting a fight by being static to the rush of random entry, no angling , to even create a reason for the guy to recover and start again...like, here I am dead and not moving, oh wow, now I am being taken down, **** I should have stuck to you arm and felt your intentions sooner :D

silly.

kev,

If i'm reading you right, your point is that they should have shut this down before chi sao began rather than looking for an answer for it inside of the chi sao platform, correct?

[YouKnowWho]

Something that I don't understand in this thread discussion. Why is it a bad idea to add something extra into the WC Chi Shou training? Same as adding "under hook" into the Taiji push hand.

A + B > A

The A will not be changed. the B is just something extra.

[GlennR]

To support my point , I have sparred and exchanged personally with a guy from your lineage, in a friendly manner, he saw the hand chasing he was doing. All I did was not play his game...its not hard to spar for a few seconds without taking teeth out simply to show an error.

And I can say the same with some WSL guts I've sparred with but ultimately it's just two WC guys going at each other.
Having said that, my main observation with these guys was that at the bridge I could control them pretty well, they come at you, change the line but from my experience I think there's better lineages at that contact...... Just my experience
But, they are very direct and use angles well which is great for self defense.


I think the whole chi-Sao argument think depends on the emphasis of what the particular lineage is trying to achieve, which I guess ultimately depends on the individual.

Look at WSL and TST, both without a doubt top IM students but both have their different slant on WC which is highlighted in their chi-Sao...... TST looks for control more than WSL, no big deal

Being a TST guy I find it translates well into the clinch range in Thai, maybe if I was a WSL guy iwouldntbe so comfortable..... But then I'd probably be more comfortable at something else.
As I've said before, Ali and Frazier were both great great boxers.....but boy they didn't fight, or look, the same

[Wayfaring]

I never said you cant do this, just clarifying a mindset that wont mix in the same drill. Iow MY focus is never to go into your mindset. Movement and space is also involved with knives and mindless life or death scenarios whereby moving into an arc of a following knife is an end. So we maintain this 'thinking' beyond chi-sao to greater distances of blades.
I love BJJ, catch, etc... not saying anything negative about that. :D
I advocate grappling by an instructor who knows his thing. I would never try to incorporate another idea into the drills . I would in sparring due to the change of action . But maintaining a clarity of purpose is essential in the drills, to ME :D

So the reason I believe my mindset is different from yours is that I have ground experience. As a result, my mindset includes those options.

I'm advocating maintaining your mindset but training against someone trying to grip fight with you. To me that's the easiest way to start to ramp up skill dealing with grapplers while still maintaining your focus to punch them in the lips ;)

I respect the opinion and viewpoint that to connect with your art you have to learn it exactly as taught. However, another point I have regarding that is that the rooftops in Hong Kong never had an abundance of Olympic wrestlers. Today with mma's popularity you have a lot more with that base skillset walking around.

This is a constant struggle with any art. Stay traditional to connect with the ancestors vs. stay modern to connect with the future. What's the right blend? I think that's the beauty of developing YOUR art. You pick the blend you're comfortable with. My viewpoint has evolved over time along these lines.

I enjoyed your posting of WSL's what I learned from beimo. He is saying don't invent things before understanding the full intent of the exercise. I can respect that. However, I do postulate if Wong was getting dumped on his toucan on the rooftops on a regular basis that he himself probably would have modified some things to adapt to that.

[k gledhill]

kev,

If i'm reading you right, your point is that they should have shut this down before chi sao began rather than looking for an answer for it inside of the chi sao platform, correct?

Yeah the drill is started in close proximity for force exchanges. We then expand from there. But for fighting you get a lot of redundancy of the drills. The face off allows for entry to be seen and responded too appropriately. Never ygkym with two arms outstretched.

[k gledhill]

So the reason I believe my mindset is different from yours is that I have ground experience. As a result, my mindset includes those options.

I'm advocating maintaining your mindset but training against someone trying to grip fight with you. To me that's the easiest way to start to ramp up skill dealing with grapplers while still maintaining your focus to punch them in the lips ;)

I respect the opinion and viewpoint that to connect with your art you have to learn it exactly as taught. However, another point I have regarding that is that the rooftops in Hong Kong never had an abundance of Olympic wrestlers. Today with mma's popularity you have a lot more with that base skillset walking around.

This is a constant struggle with any art. Stay traditional to connect with the ancestors vs. stay modern to connect with the future. What's the right blend? I think that's the beauty of developing YOUR art. You pick the blend you're comfortable with. My viewpoint has evolved over time along these lines.

I enjoyed your posting of WSL's what I learned from beimo. He is saying don't invent things before understanding the full intent of the exercise. I can respect that. However, I do postulate if Wong was getting dumped on his toucan on the rooftops on a regular basis that he himself probably would have modified some things to adapt to that.

Look at it this way, before a fight starts we have distance, space and time. We arent simply doing the chi-sao as the starting point of our fight or the 'way' to fight.
We USE each other to react and respond with reflex reactions and move according to certain stimulus. All done under constant striking , cycling pressures. Like rubbing your stomach and patting your head, the co-ordination of cycling striking and a defensive opposite hand without thinking about right alignment, energy balance, stance collapsing, right footwork...all under steadily increasing pressure both physically and mentally to avoid panicking under attack and calmness to counter attack.
If you add wrestling your mindset is no longer in a cycling striking focus, you would automatically adopt the opposite and actively seek the arms for over/under hooks, turning the partner for leg shots...it would stop being VT .

Like a circuit board of synapses in the brain being rerouted into a completely different wiring. One or the other, but not both together.

I imagine that your current chi-sao is predominantly pressure based to expect pressure back in a compliant rolling format.

[Wayfaring]

Look at it this way, before a fight starts we have distance, space and time. We arent simply doing the chi-sao as the starting point of our fight or the 'way' to fight.
We USE each other to react and respond with reflex reactions and move according to certain stimulus. All done under constant striking , cycling pressures. Like rubbing your stomach and patting your head, the co-ordination of cycling striking and a defensive opposite hand without thinking about right alignment, energy balance, stance collapsing, right footwork...all under steadily increasing pressure both physically and mentally to avoid panicking under attack and calmness to counter attack.

If you are highlighting the extra work necessary to incorporate ground work into your arsenal then I can totally relate.


If you add wrestling your mindset is no longer in a cycling striking focus, you would automatically adopt the opposite and actively seek the arms for over/under hooks, turning the partner for leg shots...it would stop being VT .

"Mindset" is overrated. Didnt' WSL himself say VT is using the most economical movement to accomplish the task?

You don't automatically adopt a wrestlers viewpoint. If anything that's harder to develop as you've put more time into other arts and strategies and have a better base there. You won't lose your VT mindset by doing chi sau drills against people grip fighting with you.

Regarding the "stop being VT" I find that mindset a lot in the WCK community. Let me ask you this - if you got run over by a bus, would your greatest concern be that it didn't have "Ving Tsun" on the license plate?


Like a circuit board of synapses in the brain being rerouted into a completely different wiring. One or the other, but not both together.

I disagree. All it takes is reps. If you drill it, you can perform it. Will you experience synapse crossover and thus confusion? Yes. But it's not that bad. Just keep moving and you get over it. Then it smoothes out. And IMO experience that synapse crossover in your gym with your training partners in a controlled environment as opposed to out on the street or in some other form of more elevated conflict.


I imagine that your current chi-sao is predominantly pressure based to expect pressure back in a compliant rolling format.
My chi sau represents less than 5% of my training time. Live sparring is approx. 30-40%. As far as pressure based HFY guys have their elbows on their nipple lines for structure and a few other unique alignment points to increase structural integrity. So when I do engage in the steering wheel square stance two arm bridge exercise, it has forward intent up the centerline. So people will say they feel a lot of pressure up the center when I'm completely relaxed and not leaning at all. To me the test for that is the opponent's tan sau. If he rocks me onto my toes or displaces my balance forward, then I'm leaning (or you might say pressure based).

[k gledhill]

If you are highlighting the extra work necessary to incorporate ground work into your arsenal then I can totally relate.

"Mindset" is overrated. Didnt' WSL himself say VT is using the most economical movement to accomplish the task?

You don't automatically adopt a wrestlers viewpoint. If anything that's harder to develop as you've put more time into other arts and strategies and have a better base there. You won't lose your VT mindset by doing chi sau drills against people grip fighting with you.

Regarding the "stop being VT" I find that mindset a lot in the WCK community. Let me ask you this - if you got run over by a bus, would your greatest concern be that it didn't have "Ving Tsun" on the license plate?

I disagree. All it takes is reps. If you drill it, you can perform it. Will you experience synapse crossover and thus confusion? Yes. But it's not that bad. Just keep moving and you get over it. Then it smoothes out. And IMO experience that synapse crossover in your gym with your training partners in a controlled environment as opposed to out on the street or in some other form of more elevated conflict.

My chi sau represents less than 5% of my training time. Live sparring is approx. 30-40%. As far as pressure based HFY guys have their elbows on their nipple lines for structure and a few other unique alignment points to increase structural integrity. So when I do engage in the steering wheel square stance two arm bridge exercise, it has forward intent up the centerline. So people will say they feel a lot of pressure up the center when I'm completely relaxed and not leaning at all. To me the test for that is the opponent's tan sau. If he rocks me onto my toes or displaces my balance forward, then I'm leaning (or you might say pressure based).

My point is simply the drills of VT are goal oriented. To develop the elbow and its technical ability for striking exchanges involving interception ideas. Iow a raised elbow intercepts little so we add head bobbing to compensate...I digress, as usual :D

If I spar I use lines of attacking entry to me the same for a strike or a shoot becasue we are still dealing with space and time, no contact, just a level change.
I can adapt a low lop sao to grab the leading hand going for a single leg to turn you, as I would on a higher elevation, so no biggee there I can adapt to you as a "line of force".
Its when we get into the 'hands on' of a grappler I want to avoid primarily, if I prepared for this I wouldnt try to double teach chi-sao because its an ELBOW development arena with other facets. One is hard enough to condition alone, without 'thinking' to change into another. Thought is big issue , in terms of hesitating in an 'oh **** moment.
My elbows in a grappling scenario arent the issue, as they are in chi-sao related exchanges of interception through angulation, lat sao jik chun, etc....

[Wayfaring]

If I spar I use lines of attacking entry to me the same for a strike or a shoot becasue we are still dealing with space and time, no contact, just a level change.

Me too.


I can adapt a low lop sao to grab the leading hand going for a single leg to turn you, as I would on a higher elevation, so no biggee there I can adapt to you as a "line of force".

Yes - this kind of stuff is what I'm after.


Its when we get into the 'hands on' of a grappler I want to avoid primarily, if I prepared for this I wouldnt try to double teach chi-sao because its an ELBOW development arena with other facets. One is hard enough to condition alone, without 'thinking' to change into another. Thought is big issue , in terms of hesitating in an 'oh **** moment.

Yes. You want to be striking, not reaching to clinch. This is so much more of a problem trying to teach wrestlers to strike than it is trying to teach strikers to have defensive grappling skills. Most wrestlers I've seen push their punches for a very long time learning striking.

So again, to recommend an easier path than I took - do a chi sau drill where you are touching hands normally with your focus and they are trying to both strike and grapple with you. That would be a drill that models real life scenarios against a mma guy.


My elbows in a grappling scenario arent the issue, as they are in chi-sao related exchanges of interception through angulation, lat sao jik chun, etc....
Elbows in a grappling scenario are a HUGE issue. For example, an elbow a couple inches turned out instead of good down elbows like WCK teaches - opens up huge holes for both a kimura submission as well as attacking a wristlock for entry/pain to chain into a takedown. In fact, I'll go as far to say that a good elbow down WCK stance is more readily workable for grappling defense than a standard boxers fighting stance.

[k gledhill]

Me too.

Yes - this kind of stuff is what I'm after.

Yes. You want to be striking, not reaching to clinch. This is so much more of a problem trying to teach wrestlers to strike than it is trying to teach strikers to have defensive grappling skills. Most wrestlers I've seen push their punches for a very long time learning striking.

So again, to recommend an easier path than I took - do a chi sau drill where you are touching hands normally with your focus and they are trying to both strike and grapple with you. That would be a drill that models real life scenarios against a mma guy.

Elbows in a grappling scenario are a HUGE issue. For example, an elbow a couple inches turned out instead of good down elbows like WCK teaches - opens up huge holes for both a kimura submission as well as attacking a wristlock for entry/pain to chain into a takedown. In fact, I'll go as far to say that a good elbow down WCK stance is more readily workable for grappling defense than a standard boxers fighting stance.

Cool, Show a clip of the kimura defense etc...thanks

[Wayfaring]

Cool, Show a clip of the kimura defense etc...thanks

Jason Scully has a good writeup plus instructional video on aspects of that here:

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=116076&page=1

Also, here's Nick Diaz being remarkably articulate showing this from standing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8j10wSz5cGM

[k gledhill]

Jason Scully has a good writeup plus instructional video on aspects of that here:

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=116076&page=1

Also, here's Nick Diaz being remarkably articulate showing this from standing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8j10wSz5cGM

Thanks, my student who does purple blt bjj/ teaches wrestling, was showing me escapes from the standing kimura [catch, double wrist lock], using my knee to come up and break it apart, rough but works.

[Wayfaring]

Thanks, my student who does purple blt bjj/ teaches wrestling, was showing me escapes from the standing kimura [catch, double wrist lock], using my knee to come up and break it apart, rough but works.

Yeah, rough extraction of your arm if he has a grip - crude tool but effective. If you're familiar with the standing kimura you can prevent the grip also by a good grip and elbow. When people go for that on me - like if they are attacking my left arm, I'll float to the right hip and lock my elbow down. That prevents the kimura grip. Then you have the leg trip takedown like in the video.

There's a lot of stuff like that in grappling - simple fundamental movements and postures that shut down a lot of the attacks.