All things White Crane!!!

[Minghequan]

Hi,

Arising out of my recent discussions with Hendrik etc I am looking at starting this thread to look at "All things White Crane!"

So lets start at the beginning and lets share what we have, know or think!!!

I'll start by asking what was the original White Crane really like?

[Hendrik]

To have a solid based,

I suggest using the 5 layer categorization to break the lineage you know and examine each layer in details.

The 5 layers is a good way of looking at the subject clearly from different angle and put complex things into perspective.

I develop the 5 layer to understand what is going on. when ask the question of what this lineage or style do in each layer, one can see what the style is doing clearly. Most tcma researchers fail because they do not have both a systemic view and a details view of the style.

If one do a 5 layer anlysis of the different types of crane evolution and identify the common denominators, one will see what is in the blood line.

one needs to answer all the questions of the five layers of a particular style to be able to learn it fully.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hi,

Arising out of my recent discussions with Hendrik etc I am looking at starting this thread to look at "All things White Crane!"

So lets start at the beginning and lets share what we have, know or think!!!

I'll start by asking what was the original White Crane really like?

Was White crane created/developed to fight ? and if so, under what context?
Answer THAT and you will have the first step to unlocking the "secrets" of White Crane ( and any other MA as well).

[Minghequan]

Sanjuro Ronin:

Was White crane created/developed to fight ? and if so, under what context?
Answer THAT and you will have the first step to unlocking the "secrets" of White Crane ( and any other MA as well).

Thank you. My view and understanding is yes it was created to fight in the area of personalized life-protection. So I approach the art from this perspective naturally but I also am equally interested in it's health, Mind and energy aspects in looking at it from a totality point of view.


Hendrik:

To have a solid based,

I suggest using the 5 layer categorization to break the lineage you know and examine each layer in details.

The 5 layers is a good way of looking at the subject clearly from different angle and put complex things into perspective.

I develop the 5 layer to understand what is going on. when ask the question of what this lineage or style do in each layer, one can see what the style is doing clearly. Most tcma researchers fail because they do not have both a systemic view and a details view of the style.

If one do a 5 layer anlysis of the different types of crane evolution and identify the common denominators, one will see what is in the blood line.

one needs to answer all the questions of the five layers of a particular style to be able to learn it fully.

Okay! Sounds good and logical. Can you point me in the right direction to get me started on the 5 layers? What has your research in this manner given you? What are the discoveries you have made?

[YouKnowWho]

My view and understanding is yes it was created to fight in the area of personalized life-protection. So I approach the art from this perspective naturally but I also am equally interested in it's health, Mind and energy aspects in looking at it from a totality point of view.

The day that we see TCMA has turned into "health, mind and energy, better body condition, belong to a group, a hobby, have people to chat with, ...", the day that we should all get a rope, find a quite place, and hang ourselves. We don't want our future generation to blame on our generation to cause that to happen. :(

[Minghequan]

You Know Who

The day that we see TCMA has turned into "health, mind and energy, better body condition, belong to a group, a hobby, have people to chat with, ...", the day that we should all get a rope, find a quite place, and hang ourselves. We don't want our future generation to blame on our generation to cause that to happen.

I agree but also look to the art as being more than just fighting ... it's my way ... not everyone else. A totality approach does not dismiss the over-riding essence of the art that it was and is used for fighting and Personal Life-Protection!

[SergeTk]

The day that we see TCMA has turned into "health, mind and energy, better body condition, belong to a group, a hobby, have people to chat with, ...", the day that we should all get a rope, find a quite place, and hang ourselves. We don't want our future generation to blame on our generation to cause that to happen. :(

I don't know what style you practice but I'm pretty sure all of the above (with exception of hobby ) has been part of the TCMA since day one in one form or another....

[Minghequan]

SergeTk:

I don't know what style you practice but I'm pretty sure all of the above (with exception of hobby ) has been part of the TCMA since day one in one form or another....

Agreed! That is the way I view the arts.

[YouKnowWho]

Agreed! That is the way I view the arts.

Allow me to ask the following questions then:

- Will work out in gym give you more "health" and "better body condition" benefit?
- Will go to church give you more "mind" benefit?
- Will join in the local gangs give you better "belong to a group" and "have people to chat with" benefit?

We should not make TCMA into something it was not designed for.

[Hendrik]

Okay! Sounds good and logical. Can you point me in the right direction to get me started on the 5 layers? What has your research in this manner given you? What are the discoveries you have made?

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=63819

[Minghequan]

YouKnowWho: (Actually No I Don't know You at All!):

Allow me to ask the following questions then:

- Will work out in gym give you more "health" and "better body condition" benefit?
- Will go to church give you more "mind" benefit?
- Will join in the local gangs give you better "belong to a group" and "have people to chat with" benefit?

We should not make TCMA into something it was not designed for.

This thread is not about the TCM versus Combative Applications of TCMA. If you want to discuss that aspect then please feel free to start a whole new thread on that actual subject (although I have a feeling it's been done to death already!)

[Minghequan]

Thanks Hendrik!

Would you care to share some of the couplets of White Crane in your possession and perhaps explain or share your views on same?

I have a few I've listed here:

Yi tou,shen, shou,zu sizhong li shi wei san zhan bu fa de genji:

The four pillars of force, the head, body, hand, foot are the basis of three fighting methods.

Use the head, body, hand & foot as four kinds of strength as the very basics of SanZhan footwork.

Shou you san jie,shang jie tun jian,zhong jie tun zhou ,wei jie menghu chulin:

The hand has three joints,upper joint supports the shoulder, the medial joint, the elbow and the lower joint sets out the appendage,

The hand has three sections (Jie), upper section swallows shoulder, middle section swallows elbow, lower section “fierce tiger emerges from the forest (Refers to a Chin-Na Techniques seen in the forms)

Neijierutie, wai jie ru mian, shou zhi ru ni, nei,wai jie jingjing xiangshang,quanbu shenli yi jie wei menhu:

The internal joint simulates Iron, the external joint simulates linen hand and fingers simulate concrete, internal and external joints simulataneously move upwards; the joints act as release point of the whole body’s force.

Inner section (Jie) like iron, outer section like cotton, the fingers are like mud, inner and outer sections move forward together, the entire body uses sections (Jie) as guards

Shou you liu men zhi bian,bian you shang xia zuoyou chu ru zhi fen:

The hand has six points of release, drifting upwards, downwards, to the the right, outwards and inwards.

The hand has six (men) kinds of change, changes are up, down, left, right, out, in.

San zhan wei xian ,duanzheng wei wu,ranhou lian qi shou zu xiang yingjingu chu li yi qi chuan.jiji zhi shi guan qi dishi er chu bu,guan ta ren zhi mianmu kezhi ta ren zhi chu li,cha qi shen ke zhi qi shen zhi dongjing:

The three fighting methods coming first, followed by the joints, and then the effect of the hand and foot, and underlying bones together unleash theenergy .The rapid move is directed towards the targets face in a manner that makes the hands release power, determined by the entire bodys bloodvessels.

SanZhan is the most important, correct posture a must, then train moving the hands with the foot corresponding to each other, the tendons and bones produce strength/power (li) with one breath (referring to correct breathing) at the same time.

Zhi yao li zu menhu,shang, zhong,xia zi you jie ying:

The body needs to be relaxed in the superior, medial and inferior positions to release the power.

Before attacking observe the situation then make a move, looking at the opponent’s face can tell the strength of the person’s attack, observing the subtleties (Shen: Possible telegraphing) can tell the body’s movements.

[Minghequan]

Some more:

You qiao duan qiao, ke dui zhuang er po, wu qiao sheng qiao,yin zhi er po shou wei bubu xian ruan,er hou ying yong jin:

Bridge the gap to break the resistance, create the bridge where there’s noneto break it progressively from hand to tail, first with tenderness followed by firm strength.

Only need to erect good guard (Men hu ~ guarding) upper, middle, lower attacks are naturally defended.

Wu tan yu qian,wu shi yu hou, bu bu liwen,shenli guanlian,shouzuxiangying Tunzhong, shenzhongqianhou liangpian zhengzhong dai jing, fu zhong daichen,chenzhong dai dong,you huoqi zhi yi,bu ke cha yin shi yang:

Without moving forward, without drifting backwards, stabilize your body position, to concentrate your body strength, effectively along your hands and feet.

If there is bridge (Chiao) break the bridge, standing post (Zhuan) can be used to break, with each step hands and feet are first soft (Rou), then use hard (Yin) strength. (Referring to White Crane Techniques). Position your body centrally, backwards and forwards in two unmoved patterns, in suspense, then in motion, with full force, without becoming YIN deficient or losing YANG.

Don’t attack first, don’t attack last, every step is stable, use the entire body connected together to produce power (Li), hands and feet correspond to each other. The hips and centre of body are stable (Zhen) and unmoving (Jin), floating (Fu) but also sinking (Chen), Sinking but also moving (Dong), the spirit is loose and active, (“aliveness”) you cannot lose ying or miss yang (hard and soft together).

Xue zhe you xin ji lian, lun nian bu lun yue:

The student must practice this by heart, yearly and not monthly.

If the student has heart then train, think in terms of years, not months.

Sui shou,zu dong ru che lun, er shen neng jing ru tie zhu,shouwan ying ru tie zhi. liang zu luodi bubu sheng gen:

With the hands and feet moving like a carts wheels and the body still as an Iron rod, the palms as stiff as an Iron pad, the two feet progressively land to the ground as a live root.

The hands and feet move like a wheel of a horse carriage, the body can be stable unmoving (Jin) like a pillar of iron, hands and wrist hard like bars of iron. The whole feet have to touch the ground when moving, with every step the feet take root (stable footwork.

Ruo yi ri bao zhi shi ri hanzhi,tu lian xuming, er wu shi xue:

A days replenishment prepares for ten days of distress: practice your moves, and do not forget what you have learnt.

If the student one day trains intensely, then ten days trains without effort, then the student is only claiming to practice martial arts (but is a fraud) he/she is not learning seriously.

Chu shou shangbu zhang si,xiabu bu jieying.rbu che wu lun bu neng zhuanzishen bu neng bao,zenneng qusheng ta ren, shi yi yi xue nan jing ye:

Move and relax your hands upwards, then downwards without stress. Just as a cart with no wheels, is unable to turn, Just as is it impossible for an unsatisfied body to conquer an attack, so is difficult for the student who doesn’t learn to pass easily.


When attacking, the upper body is tense and rigid, the lower body will not correspond with the upper. Like a cart (Chariot) without wheels cannot spin, the student cannot protect himself/herself, how can he/she succeed over his/her opponents. It is easy to learn fighting but hard to reach the next level (elite fighting level).

Tun tu fuchen jun xu ji, gangrou xiang ji ding xinshen:

Suspend and relax your body, with tenderness directed towards your heart andspirit.

The student must remember swallowing (Tun), spitting (Tu), sinking (Chen), floating (Fu), hardness (Gang) corresponding with softness (Rou) and calm and steady your spirit.

Yan ru shen,shou si jian,chushou ru yin chu lu,dui ta si feng bailiu,shang xia zhuanquyi shen li, lai you sheng qu wu ying, qianbian wan hua lian zhi jie ye, si shan wu ding,si hai wu di, wangfan zhi shi keyi ke ren hu zhi, chushou zhi shi you ru gaoshanliushui:

Eyes like nerve, hands like spikes, hands stretched out like a stretched path, against the target like gust of wind, upwards and downwards turning.The body’s force coming forth with sound, returning with no shadow, changing a thousand times, straightening ten thousand times to get a leaf, similar to a peakless mountain or a bottomless sea, back and forth to target the bodys support,stretching out the hands like a waterfall from the mountain top.

Eyes like spirit (Shen), hands like arrows, attacking hands twist and turn like a winding road, to the opponent you look like a willow tree blowing, swaying in the wind, moving up and down, twisting or turning use the entire body’s strength. Coming with sound and leave without shadow (Referring to fast footwork and attack, not stealth), improvise and change like branching leaves on a tree branch, like a mountain without a top or an ocean without a bottom, moving and retreating (attacking the enemy and protecting the limbs), attacking like falling water from a tall mountain.

[Minghequan]

Shen wei zhu, yan wei shuai, shou wei bing, jiao wei jiang,li you san qi qi,feng you san li yin, zuodantian, you qi hai, tun zai di, tu zai tian:

Taking the body as prime, the eyes as a guide, the hands as a yard stick,feet as a pillar; power from three sources, wind from three outlets, streaming from left to right, the tongue on the ground, spitting in the sky.

The body is the master, the eyes is the general, the hands are the soldiers, the feet are the elite soldiers. Power (Li) come from three (Chi), wind (Feng) directed from three, left is dan tien, right is chi hai, swallow the ground (Di) spit at the field (Tien).

Youzuo bi you you, you you bi you zuo, you kai bi you he,you lai bi you qu lai qu bi fenming, wu ji gui yi lu:

The left must have the right, the right must have the left, a bond must have unity; an arrival must have a departure, arrivals and departures must be distinct, the five basic routes as one. If there is a left there must be a right (attack), if there is a right there must be a left (attack), if there is open there must be closing, if there is coming there must be leaving, coming and leaving (attacking and retreating) are clear, these five basics go together to one road (combined).

Wu zong bu zong, wu hou bu hou, you men ze da, wumen ze shou:

No bonds can be combined, no future has a future, with a door there is aside, with no door there isn’t an opening.

Don’t be the first and don’t be the last, (attack after the opponent telegraphs, but before opponent completes attack), if there is an opening (Men or “Door) attack, if there is no opening (men) then guard.

Ziji zhi shou,pei ta ren zhi bi,ziji zhi you, pei ta ren zhi zuo:

Use your hands, to target his nose, position yourself to the right, to target his left.

Your own hand follow opponent’s nose, your other hand follow your opponent’s opposite hand (guard position).

Jiaoshou zhi shi zhi ke qu shuai,ta lai sui ta lai, ta qu sui ta qu,ta zuosui ta zuo,ta you suita you, ta bian suita bian,t a di sui ta di, guojiao bi fenming:

Only with your hands crossed can you create guidance, He comes as he wishes to, he goes as he wishes to, He drifts leftwards as he wishes to, he drifts rightwards as he wishes to, he changes as he wishes to, he retreats as he so wishes, every move must be distinct.

When crossing hands (attacking) only take the general (eyes), when he comes let him come, when he goes let him go, when he goes left let him go left, when he goes right let him go right, when he changes technique let him change, when he lowers let him lower (Di), every action must be clear.

Gangrou xiangji shi zhengfa, xushifenming, wanwu yi shi:

Tenderness simulates a positive method, distinct enough with no loss.

Hardness (Gang) corresponding with softness (Rou) is the correct method, make clear of false and real attacks (real attack or feint), do not miss one attack in then thousand attacks.

Qianquan gui yi lu, da ren zhi yi xia:

A thousand turns in one move,can only knock somebody down. A thousand styles follow one road, there is only one road to hit a man

Jing er daidong wei zhi yu li, dong ji daijing wei zhi fengli,fengyu renzhen shi pozu. Shou zu judong, shenchen jing xing yu zhi shi, qi chen dantian quanshen daidong xingyu zhi shi:

A gentle move is likened to a rain of force, a move with gentleness is likened to a wind of force. Rain and wind forces combined will break the target the hands and legs move simultaneously, the body relaxes like falling rain with the energy streaming from the sky, the entire body moving as falling rain.

Unmoving (outside) yet moving (inside) is the power of the rain (Yu li), moving (outside) but still (inside) is the power of the wind (Feng li). Practice diligently wind and rain (Feng, Yu) to break through (refers to attack and footwork, swaying or standing still). Moving the hand and foot, the body uses rain (Yu). Chi sinks down to Dan tien, the entire body uses rain (Yu).

Zong he shenfa wuxing,jian ru gui, fu ru xia,yao (huo) ru long,kua ruhouma si talun:

Conclusively, the five body moves: the shoulder as that of a ghost, the abdomen as that of a shrimp, the waist as that of dragon, the knees as that of a monkey, are likened to a horse cart.

Ancestral Crane Fist has five body forms: shoulder like turtle, abdomen like shrimp, waist (loose) like dragon, hips like monkey, foot (moves) like a horse cart.


Shi he quan wu yin qi li zhi gong:

Take note of the five elements of energy force.Feeding Crane Fist has five sounds to aid strength and Chi:

Xu shi pi tu zhi tun li;

Energy streaming from the spleen EARTH, is sucking energy.

Xu (X=sh, pingying) comes from spleen, swallows strength (Earth)

Xi ji shenshui zhi chenqi;

Streaming from the kidney WATER , is sinking energy

Xie comes from kidneys, sinks Chi (Water).

Huo nai xinhuo zhi fuli;

Streaming from the heart FIRE is floating energy.

Ho comes from heart, floats strength (Fire)

Ha nai gan mu zhi tuqi;

Streaming from the Liver WOOD is spitting energy

Ha comes from liver, spits Chi (Wood)

Xi shi fei jin fa sheng li.

Streaming from the lungs GOLD is sound energy.

Xi comes from lungs, uses sound to aid strength/energy (Metal/Gold)

Zhaoyang baihe quanfa zhi wu

Zhaoyang Five Step White Crane method of fist moves

Fan quan qi zhi shou, zhi yao zhaoyang. Wu lun ta yong he shi,ke yong ci
shi, da men fang guo, xiao men zhi ru. Gai ci shi liang shou gu bi mian duan ya gu zhong lan qie, jie fen jiu tui hou :

Whenever you raise your hands, you need zhaoyang no matter what moves the target use . You likewise use the same move, let the target move through the large opening, into the small entrance, With your hands covering the face and nose, cut through the bones of middle teeth, then move backwards.

[YouKnowWho]

This thread is not about the TCM versus Combative Applications of TCMA. If you want to discuss that aspect then please feel free to start a whole new thread on that actual subject (although I have a feeling it's been done to death already!)

That's fine! You start this thread but you only want to hear what you want to hear.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Making ANY MA too "wordy" is never a good idea.
While every MA has principles and ( in the case ot TCMA) poems that are meant to help a student in their progression, it is ALWAYS ASSUMED that the student be DOING what the MA was designed to do: FIGHT.
How did the developers and innovators of Whit Crane come to the conclusions and principles they passed on? Via FIGHTING and most certainly NOT against other White Crane practioners.
In a nut shell, if you want to unlock any of those "secrets" there is only O NE thing you can do:
Fight.
It is by the practical application of WHite Crane ( or any other MA for that matter) that one BECOMES a White Crane fighter.
One can preach and advocate ALL the "other benefits" of any MA but if one can;t fight with it, one has LOST the PRIME reason that the MA was developed and that is the biggest SLAP in the face of tradition that we can do.

[Hendrik]

Ron,

There are plenty of saying here.

What I suggest is instead of translate them.

Go to Sifu Lee Gon or Sifu in China,

Ask them what does each saying means and what question the saying answer in each layer of the five layers. That way you can see what it is. Otherwise, it is just saying.


As a sample for illustration.

內節如鐵，外節如棉，手指如泥，內、外節井井向上，全部身力以節為門戶。

As you translate it as the following
-----------

Neijierutie, wai jie ru mian, shou zhi ru ni, nei,wai jie jingjing xiangshang,quanbu shenli yi jie wei menhu:

The internal joint simulates Iron, the external joint simulates linen hand and fingers simulate concrete, internal and external joints simulataneously move upwards; the joints act as release point of the whole body’s force.

Inner section (Jie) like iron, outer section like cotton, the fingers are like mud, inner and outer sections move forward together, the entire body uses sections (Jie) as guards
------------



To understand it via the five layers is as the following.


Inner joints like iron, outer joints like cotton, finger likes mud.

These are a description of the physical layer handling requirement characteristics. And the force vectors layer supporting and interface requirement characteristics.

These saying reveal how to handle the arm via inner outer side , different sections, and the joints .with a details description on each details in different layers.





Every well of inner and outer joints facing upward.

This is a description of how to handle the joints in the physical layers.
how is the qi layer handle. And how these handling of the physical body and qi layer contribute to the force vector layer.

Well is the name of a pressure point. This pressure point related to how force flow. By specificly aligns all well point facing upward determine the handling of the physical, qi, and force vector layers of the five layers.


So, one needs to get to these level of details to know what it is and how to implement the saying.

Thus, you need some one who knows all the five layers to describe to you, translation alone cannot seen much and infact can be misleading.



If one is not expose to inner, outer, joints, well, physical layer, qi layer, and force vector layer. Then the above saying doesnt provide much for implementation but just saying with not much meaning. And due to these saying involve the force vector layer, it is combat application significant.

Btw. Joint is also named as bow. As you can see in the yik kam transform.



As you can see in the yik kam transform, we even have the drill to make sure the saying details and the physical are aligns.and the result is experience. That way one knows the specific details in exact without have to guess.
Without that type of details synchronization the data transfer is incomplete .

Best regards.

[Hendrik]

That's fine! You start this thread but you only want to hear what you want to hear.

IMHO,
You have your opinion. But your opinion is not what the art of white crane about.


Nothing good or bad , Ron just wants a specific focus.

[sanjuro_ronin]

IMHO,
You have your opinion. But your opinion is not what the art of white crane about.


Nothing good or bad , Ron just wants a specific focus.

Unless YOU are the person that developed White Crane, YOU can't say what White Crane is about, neither can anyone else.
Don't confuse your view of something with what that something ACTUALLY is.
To say that a fighting system is NOT about fighting is bordering on ludicrous.

[Hendrik]

Unless YOU are the person that developed White Crane, YOU can't say what White Crane is about, neither can anyone else.
Don't confuse your view of something with what that something ACTUALLY is.
To say that a fighting system is NOT about fighting is bordering on ludicrous.


Anyone can clearly and specifically implement the white crane classical saying knows that part of white crane.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Anyone can clearly and specifically implement the white crane classical saying knows that part of white crane.

Do they?
I often wonder...
Tell me, where did those sayings come from? Who originated them? and more importantly HOW and WHY?

[Hendrik]

Do they?
I often wonder...
Tell me, where did those sayings come from? Who originated them? and more importantly HOW and WHY?

1. Comes from the teaching of fang chi niang the founder herself late 1600.

2. A detail description of the fighting practice of white crane stlye with details in the practice which supporting the fighting practice.

[sanjuro_ronin]

1. Comes from the teaching of fang chi niang the founder herself late 1600.

2. A detail description of the fighting practice of white crane stlye with details in the practice which supporting the fighting practice.

Controversial origins aside, the White Crane teachings and sayings came from people that actually USED White crane in a fight.
And NO AMOUNT of trying to understand these sayings will help or even work because you are NOT doing what THEY did ie: Fight with White Crane.

[Hendrik]

Controversial origins aside, the White Crane teachings and sayings came from people that actually USED White crane in a fight.
And NO AMOUNT of trying to understand these sayings will help or even work because you are NOT doing what THEY did ie: Fight with White Crane.


You are entitle to have your opinion.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You are entitle to have your opinion.

As are you my friend.
I am of the belief that only through fighting with your chosen MA can you "unlock the secrets", just as the creators of the system did.
You believe that it is through theory.

To each their own.

[Hendrik]

As are you my friend.
I am of the belief that only through fighting with your chosen MA can you "unlock the secrets", just as the creators of the system did.
You believe that it is through theory.

To each their own.

You don't know me and your speculation about me doesnt fit me.

I am a technologiest . I don't believe and speculation . Technology is my Interest. And technology can be describe and repeat or preproduce .

Let focus on white crane tradition not about you or my opinion.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You don't know me and your speculation about me doesnt fit me.

I am a technologiest . I don't believe and speculation . Technology is my Interest. And technology can be describe and repeat or preproduce .

Let focus on white crane tradition not about you or my opinion.

The tradition of EVERY MA is fighting.
Long before ANY MA put anything into a song, poem or manual, they fought to develop what they were going to put into poem, song or manual.
All the theory and reading in the world won't change that.
MA are not about technology, they are about activity, action and physical DOING.
None of that is opinion, it is fact.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I don't want you to think that I am picking on you are the way you prefer to do things.
I am well aware that at a certain point, theory is "all' we have.
BUT before we get to that point you h ave to have done the practical.
No theory will ever be correct unless you have the practical as a point of reference.
No "engine" will ever work unless it has been tested and pushed to the max.
No structure in a MA will work unless it has been subject to an opponent intent on doing you serious bodily harm and the ONLY way to stop his is to use your MA.
That is how one learns to use ones MA, BY DOING.
Just like the creators of that art did.
That is tradition.

[YouKnowWho]

only through fighting with your chosen MA can you "unlock the secrets", just as the creators of the system did.

I think you 2 guys just live on different worlds. One lives in a "combat - for others" world (also the world that I live in), while the other lives in a "self-development - for oneself" world.

Onething for sure is there is no way that you can train the poem "摇(YAO) - shake" without a live opponent.

I have tried to train the poem "残(Can) - destroy". Today, I still don't know how to train it "solo".

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think you 2 guys just live on different worlds. One lives in a "combat (for others)" world, while the other lives in a "self-development (for oneself)" world.

Onething for sure is there is no way that you can train the principle "摇(YAO) - Shake" without a live opponent.

I am not saying that one CAN'T use a MA for self-development, just that they were NOT created for that.
None of the principles, poems, sayings and "ancient chinese secrets" of any TCMA were created for anything other than to beat your opponent and survive.
When you've gotten to THAT stage, fine do all you want with your "self development".

[ginosifu]

If I may put my 2 cents in:

Martial arts of all countries, peoples, ethnicities, religions etc all have their roots in Fighting. Martial survival techniques was the most important art form early mankind created.

Wu = 武 = Martial, Military, War like.

Shu = 術 = Skill, Method, Technique.

This is our roots no matter how you slice it. However, as time went on, certain groups added Yoga, Qi Gong, Meditation etc to their Martial Programs to increase the longevity of the peoples. Now I am going out on a limb here but I would guess that all of these health aspects were added during times of peace.

Now many Martial Arts have peace time aspects that students can perfect. However, when it is time to fight..... lets get back to basics and beat the crap out of some bad guys !

ginosifu

[Minghequan]

You Know Who:

That's fine! You start this thread but you only want to hear what you want to hear.

That's cool. Yes I did start this thread. It has to do with White Crane as both a fighting or as I prefer to term it "Life-Protection" method and an art. The actual thread is about White Crane and not the endless debate as to if it should be solely a fighting method or a transformational art:-


Arising out of my recent discussions with Hendrik etc I am looking at starting this thread to look at "All things White Crane!"

So lets start at the beginning and lets share what we have, know or think!!!

I'll start by asking what was the original White Crane really like?

However seeing as you and others have made a mistaken "assumption" on my behalf allow me to state it as it actually is for me:

1/. To me, White Crane Gongfu is first and foremost a functional, effective method of life-protection (Fighting). This is the way the metaphor for it's origins is based and the way in which I teach it within my own Wu Dao Tang 武道堂 總部. my particular approach to White Crane is coined as "Wu He Dao Zhan Pai" ~ 武鶴道戰派 ~ "Martial Crane Way Battle Sect"

2/. Secondly my White Crane can also be viewed as a life transformational form of self-expression. At no time does this neglect or fail to address the fighting nature of the art.

This now made perfectly clear can we not move on to the actual Thread and discuss White Crane Gongfu (in all it's expressions) for those actually interested or who have something to share on the subject.

[Minghequan]

Hendrik:

IMHO,
You have your opinion. But your opinion is not what the art of white crane about.

Nothing good or bad , Ron just wants a specific focus.

Thank you Hendrik. I like your approach very much. Logical and dealing with the information from a practical and technological viewpoint.


YouKnowWho:

I think you 2 guys just live on different worlds. One lives in a "combat - for others" world (also the world that I live in), while the other lives in a "self-development - for oneself" world.

Onething for sure is there is no way that you can train the poem "摇(YAO) - shake" without a live opponent.

YouKnowWho, Sanjuro Ronin, Gino Shifu .... Guys,each to his own of course but please don't make "assumptions" about people who you don't know nor have shared the floor with. You could end up with some proverbial "egg on your face" doing this ... just saying. Mate, a little background ... I worked for over 5 years for the Australian Government in Youth Work often dealing with some of the worst society had to present, very street savvy individuals capable of a great deal of damage. From there I went on to be a Manager of yet another Government Skills Training Provider. From there I spent (on-going) 22 years to date in the Security Operative Industry (Cert II) as both a Bodyguard and Crowd Controller ... I have seen just about it all without going into unnecessary detail here.

Therefore my approach has always been in the area of actual fighting, not play acting in the Dojo, Kwoon, Guan or Tang but out there where it really happens. Without bragging, some of the people I teach or have taught have been involved in high level activities in a high level way such as the the Australian Army, Police Force, Tactical Operations Group, Senior Correctional Services Officers .. all proof positive that what we teach in Wu He Dao Zhan Pai White Crane Gongfu is very practical from a personal defense and Life-Protection manner!


Let focus on white crane tradition not about you or my opinion.

I agree with Hendrik here.

[ginosifu]

YouKnowWho, Sanjuro Ronin, Gino Shifu .... Guys,each to his own of course but please don't make "assumptions" about people who you don't know nor have shared the floor with. You could end up with some proverbial "egg on your face" doing this ... just saying. Mate, a little background ... I worked for over 5 years for the Australian Government in Youth Work often dealing with some of the worst society had to present, very street savvy individuals capable of a great deal of damage. From there I went on to be a Manager of yet another Government Skills Training Provider. From there I spent (on-going) 22 years to date in the Security Operative Industry (Cert II) as both a Bodyguard and Crowd Controller ... I have seen just about it all without going into unnecessary detail here.

Therefore my approach has always been in the area of actual fighting, not play acting in the Dojo, Kwoon, Guan or Tang but out there where it really happens. Without bragging, some of the people I teach or have taught have been involved in high level activities in a high level way such as the the Australian Army, Police Force, Tactical Operations Group, Senior Correctional Services Officers .. all proof positive that what we teach in Wu He Dao Zhan Pai White Crane Gongfu is very practical from a personal defense and Life-Protection manner!

Minghequan: I was not stating that you do not understand or do many of the Martial side of your art. I was just stating that all MA have their roots in Fighting. The modern person may do Qi Gong / Health aspect of MA along with their fighting. I have been doing Taiji & Qi Gong for almost 20 year now and my aim has always been health.

There are people that do MA as a religion and even people that do MA as a philosophy. Why people do MA is a personal choice and is not really important. I just noted that without the fighting we would be doing yoga or qi gong or meditation etc only.

ginosifu

[Hendrik]

Minghequan: I was not stating that you do not understand or do many of the Martial side of your art. I was just stating that all MA have their roots in Fighting. The modern person may do Qi Gong / Health aspect of MA along with their fighting. I have been doing Taiji & Qi Gong for almost 20 year now and my aim has always been health.

There are people that do MA as a religion and even people that do MA as a philosophy. Why people do MA is a personal choice and is not really important. I just noted that without the fighting we would be doing yoga or qi gong or meditation etc only.

ginosifu

Internal training in ancient martial art such as white crane is a holistic element directly supporting martial art . internal training is a part of the integration or the style.

The Add on of Internal training such as taiji and qi gong for health (or religion or philosophy ) to a modern external martial art to make it whole concept is a modern or western coin idea. Belongs to those new ager Who doesn't have the technology. And cannot make the real ancient deal work. Not to mention most doesn't even know what is internal is about.

Thus, it is very important to know the style via the white crane ancient writing. Also, it is only logical to comment on something when one really knows what it is.

[Hendrik]

in 1600 chinese martial art technology has already on its peak. thus, when White Crane was designed, it was using the top technology of its time. the momentum, force vectors flow, combat tactic, and Qi flow are fused into a single piece with the mind body evolution training.

most of the modern tcma practioners do not understand the five layers. but using a western body mind model to assume tcma such as White Crane. That cause misleading and can not figure out what is the integration and the characteristics of the style. and cannot make the full use of it.


White Crane has white crane uniqueness requirement at every layer to satisfy the combat applications with distinction. thus, White Crane is not Taiji . mixing Taiji to some white crane move does not make it white crane. in fact today's most of the Taiji's practice are erroneous and impractical for fighting.


TCMA internal is much much more then a crude coarse physical fighting or sport. it is a technology. it has technology which makes it effective and efficient. white crane is a weapon, there is no such weapon which cannot fight. but expecting a gun to be as sharp as a knive is totally missed the point. and that is exactly what most western internal tcma critics who doesnt know the subject do --- they all comment before find out why the gun has no sharp edge.


I am not here to defend white crane. my message is just, why not analyze what white crane is and present it as what it is. let it be what it is no more no less.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ron, we are discussing the generalities of WC kung fu, not the specific of personal fighting experience.
My point is simply this:
WHite Crane is a fighting system, it was developed by fighters and used in fighting.
If one wishes to "unlock" the core of the system one must fight WITH the system, just as THEY did.
All the poems and songs will NOT give you any "secret" knowledge of it because they were done by guys who had ALREADY fought with it.
They were written BY fighters FOR fighters so they only way you can "get it" is by fighting and by doing so WITH White Crane kung fu.

And that is the exact same case with EVERY other MA.

[Hendrik]

Ron, we are discussing the generalities of WC kung fu, not the specific of personal fighting experience.

My point is simply this:

WHite Crane is a fighting system, it was developed by fighters and used in fighting.
If one wishes to "unlock" the core of the system one must fight WITH the system, just as THEY did.

All the poems and songs will NOT give you any "secret" knowledge of it because they were done by guys who had ALREADY fought with it.

They were written BY fighters FOR fighters so they only way you can "get it" is by fighting and by doing so WITH White Crane kung fu.

And that is the exact same case with EVERY other MA.


How can you know what is it before you learn what the saying is?

[sanjuro_ronin]

How can you know what is it before you learn what the saying is?

The same way those did BEFORE there were sayings.

[Hendrik]

The same way those did BEFORE there were sayings.

The saying of white crane has presented very specific description on how the physical, mind, breath, qi, force vector, momentum, tactic.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The saying of white crane has presented very specific description on how the physical, mind, breath, qi, force vector, momentum, tactic.

Things that you will ONLY grasp when you USE them in the way they were developed, ie: in combat.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Even though this a thread called "ALL things White crane", it seems that the thread starter doesn't wan to discuss the practical application of White Crane.
So, I won't pursue this any further.

[Brule]

http://www.theagedp.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/businessman-banging-his-head-against-the-wall-ispc026073.jpg

[jimbob]

Let me not speak for anyone else, but I'm sure there is plenty of room to discuss the fighting aspects of White Crane on a thread titled "All things White Crane"!

I would love to read contributions from any and all on this. As an aging CLF guy, I remember only being told that the White Crane guys were our mortal enemies in Singapore back in the day (bad blood caused due to someone getting whacked in the throat during a 'friendly', I think!).

Sanjuro - I couldn't agree with your sentiments more. Unlocking an art HAS to happen fundamentally at a fighting level if you want to understand it.

Is this not an adequate point from which to begin the discussion? It doesn't mean we can't discuss other benefits as well.

[Hendrik]

Let me not speak for anyone else, but I'm sure there is plenty of room to discuss the fighting aspects of White Crane on a thread titled "All things White Crane"!

I would love to read contributions from any and all on this. As an aging CLF guy, I remember only being told that the White Crane guys were our mortal enemies in Singapore back in the day (bad blood caused due to someone getting whacked in the throat during a 'friendly', I think!).

Sanjuro - I couldn't agree with your sentiments more. Unlocking an art HAS to happen fundamentally at a fighting level if you want to understand it.

Is this not an adequate point from which to begin the discussion? It doesn't mean we can't discuss other benefits as well.

IMHO,

White Crane was very strong in Indonesia, malaysia, and Singapore in those days, CLF is the cantonese art and the White Crane is fujianess art. there always issue between race and confrontation happen.



If you read my previous post on explaining a saying on the white crane requirement in its physical and power path. you can see the different of foundation between white crane, hung gar iron wire, and CLF. via these different foundation development the tactic and technics uses in fighting are different.


Thus, IMHO, to know an art, one must know the uniqueness of the foundation development or requirement. that is the Kung part of the style.

return to the white crane sayings above. those are the records of the foundation development, technics, and tactic. so unless one know them to a large degree, one really do not know the art because one cannot reproduce them.

[jimbob]

Good - thank you!

In my own experience, the Hong Seng Koon in Singapore had many different dialect groups training there in the 70's and 80's - it was not limited to just Cantonese speakers and really, the only negatives I heard about the white crane people were 1) they made for 'ugly fights' (true - the guys there all wanted to look like Bruce Lee as much anyone anywhere else - getting tangled up in a mess of arms wasn't good for the old aesthetic qualities of your art!) and 20 the WC people were very dirty fighters. I was much younger then and questioned nothing.

Again from my own experience, the technical understandings of ones art come much later in the piece after you've fought with it for awhile. True - they may have foundations unique to themselves, but I was never really aware of them until I was developed enough to reflect back on why something was or wasn't working.

Putting into practice after that is a totally different animal again.

I don't want to derail this thread though - keen to hear more about white crane in general and it's practical predispositions in particular.

[sanjuro_ronin]

[QUOTE=jimbob;1173177

Again from my own experience, the technical understandings of ones art come much later in the piece after you've fought with it for awhile. True - they may have foundations unique to themselves, but I was never really aware of them until I was developed enough to reflect back on why something was or wasn't working.

Putting into practice after that is a totally different animal again.

I don't want to derail this thread though - keen to hear more about white crane in general and it's practical predispositions in particular.[/QUOTE]

As with any "short hand" system, you need to pressure test it reguarly because, many times, you are going against your bodies "natural" tendencies.
The chaos of REAL combat with an opponent that is not only NOT playing your game BUT is also bringing something different to the table,presents you with a whole different equation that you typically get in a "class" environment.
The more specialized and unique the system the MOT it MUST get pressure tested VS other systems.
Look at how you train, look at how you are "feed: your technqiues from your training partner, look at what "shapes" are presented to you in training.
Then look at REAL combat.
See what I mean?

[Hendrik]

Good - thank you!

In my own experience, the Hong Seng Koon in Singapore had many different dialect groups training there in the 70's and 80's - it was not limited to just Cantonese speakers and really, the only negatives I heard about the white crane people were 1) they made for 'ugly fights' (true - the guys there all wanted to look like Bruce Lee as much anyone anywhere else - getting tangled up in a mess of arms wasn't good for the old aesthetic qualities of your art!) and 20 the WC people were very dirty fighters. I was much younger then and questioned nothing.

Again from my own experience, the technical understandings of ones art come much later in the piece after you've fought with it for awhile. True - they may have foundations unique to themselves, but I was never really aware of them until I was developed enough to reflect back on why something was or wasn't working.

Putting into practice after that is a totally different animal again.

I don't want to derail this thread though - keen to hear more about white crane in general and it's practical predispositions in particular.

IMHO,

1. In the 80 things are more open. In the 70 things are started to open up. In the 60 it is still very conservative.

2. The aspect of learning via the classical sayings and unique foundation development goes only for the close circle or indoor group. That is the traditional. The well prepared WC people has thier WC power of inch Jin joints power and center door capturing technics develop to a degree before fighting.

It is similar to CLF people get the Ng Lun Ma, and pow , cup, sou, kwa, chat. Develop to a big degree to the point it is dynamicly continous roll, before get to fight.

3. Sure real life fighting is a different animal but that also based on the basic conditioning, power generation , and tactic of the style one train in. CLF fight differently compare with WC ...etc. WC used san chin type linear momentum as CLF uses the circular or arc type of momentum....etc in general. Nothing is fixed but trace of foundation can be tracked. IMHO.

[Baihequan]

Toisan White Crane is a unique kung fu style that utilizes both long and short range fist.

White Crane Kung Fu is highly deceptive as the crane can change direction in an instant and turn an offensive strike into a defensive block or vice versa. The crane often draws his opponent inward, feigning retreat, then attacks with continuous strikes.

Toisan White Crane Fists are without recoil--Toisan White Crane style combines three fist sets and each set includes three subsets for a total of 9 main fists which can be executed in mulitple variations. The fists sets are the foundation for each form in the system as they build upon one another and can be combined in many different ways to increase versatility. The Crane Claw (Jow) is used to target the opponent's pressure points in a similar manner as the Eagle claw.

White Crane Kung Fu focuses on health--with strong emphasis on total body and mind. Smooth and flowing movements allow for good circulation of blood and Qi, while allowing the lungs to expand and contract more naturally. The techniques used mitigate impact on joints while strengthening ligaments, muscles and tendons.

By combining strength with flexibility, White Crane is able to turn the force of opponent to ones advantage or neutralize the force of the opponent and attack with power. The White Crane Style combines the use of fists, palms, fingers, legs, and elbows in a variety of movements to increase ones strength, flexibility, coordination and self defense techniques.


Check out our school: www.whitecrane.ws