oldest style of mantis around

[xiao yao]

http://youtu.be/TxpH7oYsZ0I

I saw this video of Lin Tang Fang of Haiyang. Apparently his shifu was a disciple of Liang Xue Xiang, making it the oldest style of mantis. Does anyone know anything about this system? What makes up the syllabus?

[mooyingmantis]

http://youtu.be/TxpH7oYsZ0I

I saw this video of Lin Tang Fang of Haiyang. Apparently his shifu was a disciple of Liang Xue Xiang, making it the oldest style of mantis. Does anyone know anything about this system? What makes up the syllabus?

I have seen this video before. Thanks for providing some historical reference.

[LaterthanNever]

Sifu Tolson,

Are you feeling allright? Someone posted that you were undergoing surgery.

Hope your recovery is a sound one.

Regards,
LTN

[mooyingmantis]

Sifu Tolson,

Are you feeling allright? Someone posted that you were undergoing surgery.

Hope your recovery is a sound one.

Regards,
LTN

LTN,
Thanks for asking!
Yes, I had quadruple heart bypass surgery. Recovery is going well. I am teaching classes, but unable to do much myself physically yet.

[mooyingmantis]

http://youtu.be/TxpH7oYsZ0I

I saw this video of Lin Tang Fang of Haiyang. Apparently his shifu was a disciple of Liang Xue Xiang, making it the oldest style of mantis. Does anyone know anything about this system? What makes up the syllabus?

Perhaps you should try contacting Ilya Profatilova for information. He was the speaker in the commentary.

Here is his website:

http://www.mantisboxing.msk.ru/

[Tainan Mantis]

Does anyone know anything about this system? What makes up the syllabus?

Third road of Beng Bu can be seen at 5:45 So, you can see how different, or similar it is to other schools, or to how you have learned it.

[Tainan Mantis]

I would like to hear Robert Hui's take on the Beng bu being so similar to his own and what he deduces from that.

The form at 8:05 (and again at 9:50) reminds me of Roberts dan zhai mei hua form.

Zhao Zhuxi's mantis, apart what Ilya does here, is the only one that shoots out the double punches on a semi regular basis.

[sanjuro_ronin]

LTN,
Thanks for asking!
Yes, I had quadruple heart bypass surgery. Recovery is going well. I am teaching classes, but unable to do much myself physically yet.

It takes more than a bypass to keep the man down !!
:D

[alextse4]

Third road of Beng Bu can be seen at 5:45 So, you can see how different, or similar it is to other schools, or to how you have learned it.

This section of bung bu is similar as our CKTaichi mantis.

[xiao yao]

thanks for the info

here is another video, which shows a section of something called "fumu quan" and then what i think is the opening of bengbu. just ignore the beginning where they are talking about the words eat and drink in haiyang dialect.....

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzk4NjExODI4.html

wasnt zhao zhu xi a classmate of wang guo dian? who did they learn from?

[mooyingmantis]

thanks for the info

here is another video, which shows a section of something called "fumu quan" and then what i think is the opening of bengbu. just ignore the beginning where they are talking about the words eat and drink in haiyang dialect.....

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzk4NjExODI4.html

wasnt zhao zhu xi a classmate of wang guo dian? who did they learn from?

The basics are there, but that is a very different version of Beng Bu in the way he performs it.

He certainly favors the 闪 步 闪 肋 臂 as a throwing technique rather than as a "lifting yin" strike.

左 右 二 阴 阳 and 左 右 低 叫 双 绑 掌 are quite different. 左 封 右 叠 肘 is done quite low with a sinking power. While the end of the clip is fairly standard.

[Tainan Mantis]

The basics are there, but that is a very different version of Beng Bu in the way he performs it.

He certainly favors the 闪 步 闪 肋 臂 as a throwing technique rather than as a "lifting yin" strike.

左 右 二 阴 阳 and 左 右 低 叫 双 绑 掌 are quite different. 左 封 右 叠 肘 is done quite low with a sinking power. While the end of the clip is fairly standard.

Like Alex said, it is like CKTaichi Mantis.
This version does not contain 左 右 二 阴 阳 or 左 右 低 叫 双 绑 掌

[mooyingmantis]

Like Alex said, it is like CKTaichi Mantis.
This version does not contain 左 右 二 阴 阳 or 左 右 低 叫 双 绑 掌

Thank you for the clarification! I guess I missed Alex's comment.

[LaterthanNever]

I missed this thread..sorry..I know it is sort of old. Re: "oldest style" of mantis? Does that settle the debate about which of the mantis families/sub-styles are the oldest? Would this clip of the form mean that Plum Blossom is the oldest? 7 star? 6 harmonies?

I find it odd..and perhaps a bit frustrating that few have tried researching the subject more...

[mooyingmantis]

I missed this thread..sorry..I know it is sort of old. Re: "oldest style" of mantis? Does that settle the debate about which of the mantis families/sub-styles are the oldest? Would this clip of the form mean that Plum Blossom is the oldest? 7 star? 6 harmonies?

I find it odd..and perhaps a bit frustrating that few have tried researching the subject more...

It isn't a matter of the research not being attempted. It is more a matter of little documentary evidence, few documents due to the illiteracy of past instructors, and who you choose to believe when stories conflict.

Some of us have come to our own conclusions on the issue. However, there is no sense starting a war over it, so we just keep our opinions to ourselves.

[LaterthanNever]

Some of us have come to our own conclusions on the issue."

Yes, this is my area of interest, and not "starting a war over it" as you might conclude.

Might I ask, from the video posted above which now no longer works, what is the opinion re: oldest style of mantis"

[mooyingmantis]

I believe that this website offers the most credible history of Tanglangquan: http://www.taipinginstitute.com/menu-styles/zy/tanglangquan

My belief is that Seven Star mantis and Six Harmony mantis are offshoots of Plum Flower mantis.

Li Bingxaio (1731-1813) is the earliest credible originator of tanglangquan as we know it today. What he taught, a few generations later, became known as Plum Flower mantis.

Wang Yongchun (1854-1926) created the basis of modern Seven Star mantis by combining his knowledge of long fist with mantis boxing that he learned in Shandong province.

Wei Delin (1780-1873) created Six Harmonies mantis by combining his knowledge of Six Harmonies boxing with mantis boxing that he learned from a mantis boxer in Laiyang (the hot bed of Plum Flower mantis).

[B.Tunks]

In the beginning it was just Tanglang. Both Meihua and Qixing came later.

BT

[xiao yao]

I think in the beginning there were no forms, and just lines like you do in Xingyi. People got tired of repeating the same movements over and over, so they combined them into forms. Luan Jie probably came first.

That's not based on any mysterious old manuscripts or secret history, just my own opinion, and could be completely wrong. :D

[LaterthanNever]

My belief is that Seven Star mantis and Six Harmony mantis are offshoots of Plum Flower mantis"

This would make some sense as Liang Xue Xiang was born(according to the information you provided above) some 80 years before the earliest documented master of the 7 star line. Thanks

[xiao yao]

My belief is that Seven Star mantis and Six Harmony mantis are offshoots of Plum Flower mantis"

This would make some sense as Liang Xue Xiang was born(according to the information you provided above) some 80 years before the earliest documented master of the 7 star line. Thanks

But Liang Xue Xiang doesnt directly call his style Plum Flower Mantis in his manuscript.... only calls it Mantis.... it is only his students who added Meihua in front of the name.

[mooyingmantis]

But Liang Xue Xiang doesnt directly call his style Plum Flower Mantis in his manuscript.... only calls it Mantis.... it is only his students who added Meihua in front of the name.

Yes, I probably should have said, "My belief is that Seven Star mantis and Six Harmony mantis are offshoots of the mantis family that later came to be known as Plum Flower mantis". Good point Will.

[LaterthanNever]

Ah...I see..so ""My belief is that Seven Star mantis and Six Harmony mantis are offshoots of the mantis family that later came to be known as Plum Flower mantis"

Phrased this way, are you saying that you believe that 7 star was an older art than PB? Thanks.

[mooyingmantis]

Ah...I see..so ""My belief is that Seven Star mantis and Six Harmony mantis are offshoots of the mantis family that later came to be known as Plum Flower mantis"

Phrased this way, are you saying that you believe that 7 star was an older art than PB? Thanks.

No!

I believe the art passed down by Liang Xuexiang was the original mantis art. The other families are offshoots of that art. Titles are mostly just titles. Which title came first really isn't relevant to me. Meihua, Taiji, Taijimeihua, Qixing have more similarities than differences. All are equally effective for fighting. Liu He Tanglangquan is kind of another thing altogether in comparison.

I cannot prove my belief anymore than those who oppose my opinion can prove their belief. Chinese masters I have met have various opinions also and are little help in the matter. I do not believe there will ever be a definitive answer. Nor do I believe it matters.

[B.Tunks]

Tanglang pre-dates Liang Xuexiang.

[mooyingmantis]

Tanglang pre-dates Liang Xuexiang.

Obviously, since he "passed it down" rather than creating it.

My opinion is based on the things that can be historically documented by writings still extant. Previous to Liang we have oral traditions and writings that may or may not be mantis in origin.

But my opinion is still open if you can cite historically verifiable writings still extant.

[B.Tunks]

Fair enough its a personal opinion, just not sure how you can say this with authority:

'I believe the art passed down by Liang Xuexiang was the original mantis art'.

It's widely accepted that there was an archaic form of TLQ. Whether or not LXX's TLQ is a continuation of it or not is another question, however all of the existing families of TL (including Liuhe) have constructed their identity around the content of manuscripts such Shaolin Yibol Zhenchuan, Shaolin Duanda Quanshi, Shaolin Mijue etc. Many techniques and methods from these manuscripts were already lost/forgotten by the time of the differentiation of families.

LXX's TL is definitely one of the roots of today's TL, but certainly not the only root.

[mooyingmantis]

It's widely accepted that there was an archaic form of TLQ. Whether or not LXX's TLQ is a continuation of it or not is another question,...

And that is why it is just an opinion. I do not claim that it is authoritative.


...however all of the existing families of TL (including Liuhe) have constructed their identity...

There is no question that the Chinese were masters of constructing stories, legends, etc. as an attempt at legitimacy. It is still debatable whether the "creator" of mantis boxing, Wang Lang, was an actual historical figure.


...however all of the existing families of TL (including Liuhe) have constructed their identity around the content of manuscripts such Shaolin Yibol Zhenchuan, Shaolin Duanda Quanshi, Shaolin Mijue etc.

Has the exact timeline of these writings ever been firmly established?

Is Shaolin Duanda Quanshi truly a "mantis document" or was it merely adopted by mantis practitioners because some ideas in it sound similar to mantis theories? The last I heard, the judgment was still out on this.

Wasn't Shaolin Yibol Zhenchuan (Shaolin Authentics) passed down in Qixing Tanglangquan from Fan Xudong (1841-1936)? Fan Xudong was BORN one year after Liang Xuexiang wrote his treatise on mantis boxing. Is there any verifiable evidence that shows this document even existed in the time of his sifu, Wang Yunsheng? I ask because I recently read that the Hong Kong branch of Qixing Tanglangquan credits Fan Xudong with writing the five volume set.


Many techniques and methods from these manuscripts were already lost/forgotten by the time of the differentiation of families.

Lost/forgotten "techniques and methods" have no place as evidence.

Thank you for your input! It is good to hear other opinions.

[B.Tunks]

Yes there is verifiable evidence that it existed at the time of Wang Yunsheng and material from it can be cross referenced in several manuscripts from the period. Shaolin Authentics or parts thereof are passed down in all of the mantis families not just QX. What FXD passed down were his hand written copies (plus his own additions clearly attributed to himself, in the time honoured tradition). The original author of the older components is listed as Sheng Xiao Daoren - as it is in each family's manuscripts. Regardless of whether they were adopted into TLQ or actually authored by one of it's pioneers, they are certainly at its core.

'Lost' techniques and methods can be very useful to illustrate how something has changed and can also help to map divergence. They can be a useful indicator of time.

Of course the historicity of WL is still debatable. The same with SXDR. There is research being conducted in Shandong as we speak on the possible identity of SXDR but it's not my work and I don't have permission to give spoilers.

[Maofei]

If I may add to what Master Tunks mentioned in his last paragraph:

In reference to 王郎 Wang Lang:
For those who are not familiar -
One of the four legends of Wang Lang associates him with a historical former Ming Dynasty General named 于孟禧 Yu Mengxi who is commonly known as 于七 Yu Qi (Yu 7) as he was the 7th child born in his family but the first born male. His pagoda resides at Huayan Temple on Mount Lao. He was the grandson of one of China's most famous military generals named 戚继光 Qi Jiguang. You can find more information here:
http://www.mantisquarterly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1161

In reference to 升霄道人 Sheng Xiao Daoren:
There are some people in Shandong who speculate that 李炳霄 Li Bingxiao wrote under the pen name of Sheng Xiao Daoren. There are, however, other differing speculations.

Warm regards,
-Darin / Maofei

[Tainan Mantis]

One of the four legends of Wang Lang associates him with a historical former Ming Dynasty General named 于孟禧 Yu Mengxi who is commonly known as 于七 Yu Qi (Yu 7) as he was the 7th child born in his family but the first born male.

This links to a thread started by me.
Since that time I have found more information.
Wang Lang is not Yuqi, but there was a confusion about who these two people were so they have been mixed up.

The Chinese article is trying to make a case that Wang Lang is related to General Qi Jiguang, the most famous and arguable important military general of the Ming. Made the more famous by his having achieved tremendous success against piracy in the 1550's as well as writing a book about how he did it.

This sort of pseudo history is harmful. Trying to elevate your own family tradition by cobbling together bits of folklore and history and hoping the readers don't look to closely.

On a side note, many generals who didn't surrender to the Manchurian army settled in Tainan (the city where I live). There are still many temples praising the work of Koxinga and his removal of the Dutch from this city. Taiwan and especially the city of Tainan was the last holdout of the Ming Dynasty.

[Maofei]

In Shandong there are typically four different stories about the legend of Wang Lang and people tend to mix them together.
One story attributes Wang Lang as Yu Qi who went on to become an abbot of Huayan temple on Lao Mountain. His pagoda/grave resides at the temple. Today there is a statue there for Yu Qi which people often refer to as the Wang Lang statue.
Another story attributes Wang Lang as coming from Jimo county in Shandong and creating Mantis Boxing in Shaolin temple.
Another story attributes Wang Lang as 王文成 Wang Wencheng from 淳化县 Chunhua county in 陕西省 Shaanxi province.
The last story attributes Wang Lang as 大盗 Da Dao. The same Da Dao from the stories we hear of Li Bingxiao.
Not everyone understands that there are four different legends which are told in Shandong about Wang Lang.
Master Tunks briefly mentioned “historicity of WL is still debatable”. It was my intention to let the reader know a little bit more about the debate that Master Tunks was referring to. In doing so I mentioned that there were four legends and gave a little bit of detail on the Yu Qi legend. That detail from the Yu Qi legend and the information that I posted in the Mantis Quarterly forum does not come from the article you linked to which is:
http://csxb.bandao.cn/data/20130730/...content_1.html
I barely glanced at this link and had little interest in even looking at it.
There is a group of people who claim they are actually the descendents of Yu Mengxi. They have done quite a thorough and detailed job of researching and writing about him and the uprisings.

I have assembled an easy to reference list of pages for his website for the readers of this forum. This is not an endorsement for anything said within.
Please feel free to have a look:
Main page of the researcher:
http://tieba.baidu.com/home/main?un=%E5%AD%9F%E7%A6%A7%E5%AB%A1%E5%AD%99&ie=utf-8&fr=pb
Commentary:
http://tieba.baidu.com/p/2586875693
http://tieba.baidu.com/p/2567347731
http://tieba.baidu.com/p/2521688127
http://tieba.baidu.com/p/2602353861
http://tieba.baidu.com/p/2605468810
http://tieba.baidu.com/p/2622364052
http://tieba.baidu.com/p/2635557930
http://tieba.baidu.com/p/2639280657
http://tieba.baidu.com/p/2640611501
http://tieba.baidu.com/p/2644972469
http://tieba.baidu.com/p/2660001933
http://tieba.baidu.com/p/2743959025
http://tieba.baidu.com/p/2752586802
http://tieba.baidu.com/p/2762319162
http://tieba.baidu.com/p/2801119914
http://tieba.baidu.com/p/2967648821
http://tieba.baidu.com/p/3080332315
http://tieba.baidu.com/p/3080386826

In the Mantis Quarterly posting I also listed some sources they used for their information which are:
辞海 Cihai
中国通史•明清史 Chinese history Ming and Qing history
中华历史名人大辞典 Chinese history people big dictionary
于七抗清史 Yu Qi fighting the Qing annals
栖霞县志 Xixia county annals

It was my hope by listing these sources that people would not just take anyone’s word for it and instead do some research for themselves and come to their own conclusion. What is most important is to research the sources used and not his website or commentary.

By listing the Wang Lang legends and various sources for the information on Yu Qi I hope it is becoming clear that my intentions certainly were not “cobbling together history, or hoping that people don't investigate things for themselves”.

I do not know the name of the possible identity of Sheng Xiao Daoren of which Master Tunks speaks. However, I am familiar with some of the speculation in Shandong about Sheng Xiao Daoren. I wrote: “There are some people in Shandong who speculate that 李炳霄 Li Bingxiao wrote under the pen name of Sheng Xiao Daoren. There are, however, other differing speculations.” all of which is true in that there are some people in Shandong who speculate that Li Bingxiao wrote using the pseudonym Sheng Xiao Daoren. It is also true that some people have different speculations about the situation as well. I am agreeing with Master Tunks when he says “The history of Sheng Xiao Daoren is debatable” and only slightly elaborated on one thought that some people have. I myself do not have this thought and I do not believe that Li Bingxiao wrote under the pseudonym of Sheng Xiao Daoren at all. It certainly was not my intention in the slightest bit to try to “elevate your own family tradition”. My apologies if there was any misunderstanding.

Warm regards,
Darin / Maofei

[B.Tunks]

G'day Darin.

All good mate! No need to apologise. I'm pretty sure Kevin was referring to the people/authors/'researchers' that push certain story lines in respect to the identity of these figures and not actually to you at all (but he can confirm that).
Keep posting because its always really informative stuff. I don't normally get time to contribute to these discussions but thought I'd throw something on here in the interests of balance as there are many sides to these arguments, as you are very well aware. In fact you definitely seem up to date with what's going on research-wise. Nice one.

No need for the formalities either - I'm certainly no Master ;)

Cheers.

BT

[xiao yao]

Going back to Richard's comments regarding Mantis being all passed down through Liang Xue Xiang...... is anyone familiar with Shanxi province Mantis and Hebei province Mantis? Very different arts..... Slawomir told me he had briefly trained in Hebei and that the style was totally different to anything done in Shandong, there were no forms, just lines, and that all the terminology followed Shaolin Authentics almost exactly. Boris also knows somebody who is training the style formally, so might be worth asking him more about that.

Shanxi Mantis is also very different again https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwiprXzWVCI looks a lot like Xingyi.

[xiao yao]

Darin, I think Kevin was calling the article in question Pseudo-history, nothing to do with you personally.

[Tainan Mantis]

Darin,
Great collection of information that you have assembled here. I was motivated enough to make a post...

This sentience....



This sort of pseudo history is harmful. Trying to elevate your own family tradition by cobbling together bits of folklore and history and hoping the readers don't look to closely.

...is to directed to any person who writes any controversial or non-verifiable sort history on Wang Lang, or any other martial arts figure, without giving their sources.

I keep reading from so many sources that Wang Lang is 'this guy' or Wang Lang is 'that guy.' How are we supposed to know which is the correct Wang Lang? Your listing of specific legends is a good way to try and track it down but...

Not one single bit of Mantis history that I have seen have touched on the fact that Sheng Xiao Dao Ren was a fan of poetry and theater. He left behind a large body of work and sprinkled it with references to poetry from the Tang Dynasty and popular story telling during his lifetime.

I have spent the last ten years tracking down these sources. I feel like driftwood on an ocean...not a single historian has taken to looking at the literary context of martial writings. The Ming dynasty history of martial arts with strong literary connections starts with General Qi Jiguang and his reference to Chen Xiang, a popular story of the time. Even the great Meir Shahar has missed Shaolin's idolization of Sun Wukong and Er Lang during the Ming (last I checked).

Though Mantis is a Qing dynasty creation some aspects are solidly based in the Ming era.

Today I took from the Local University library a series of copies of woodblock printings of masters of the mantis family tree. The goal is to incorporate this into a book of Mantis and verify that, yes, these characters were popular in the Ming dynasty and were the stars of literature.

More later...

[mooyingmantis]

In Shandong there are typically four different stories about the legend of Wang Lang and people tend to mix them together.
One story attributes Wang Lang as Yu Qi who went on to become an abbot of Huayan temple on Lao Mountain. Today there is a statue there for Yu Qi which people often refer to as the Wang Lang statue.
Another story attributes Wang Lang as coming from Jimo county in Shandong and creating Mantis Boxing in Shaolin temple.
Another story attributes Wang Lang as 王文成 Wang Wencheng from 淳化县 Chunhua county in 陕西省 Shaanxi province.
The last story attributes Wang Lang as 大盗 Da Dao. The same Da Dao from the stories we hear of Li Bingxiao.
Not everyone understands that there are four different legends which are told in Shandong about Wang Lang.
Master Tunks briefly mentioned “historicity of WL is still debatable”. It was my intention to let the reader know a little bit more about the debate that Master Tunks was referring to. In doing so I mentioned that there were four legends and gave a little bit of detail on the Yu Qi legend. That detail from the Yu Qi legend and the information that I posted in the Mantis Quarterly forum does not come from the article you linked to which is:
http://csxb.bandao.cn/data/20130730/html/18/content_1.html
I barely glanced at this link and had little interest in even looking at it.
There is a group of people who claim they are actually the descendents of Yu Mengxi. They have done quite a thorough and detailed job of researching and writing about him and the uprisings.

Please feel free to have a look:
http://tieba.baidu.com/p/2521688127
http://tieba.baidu.com/p/2567347731
http://tieba.baidu.com/p/2586875693
http://tieba.baidu.com/p/2602353861
http://tieba.baidu.com/p/2605468810
http://tieba.baidu.com/p/2622364052
http://tieba.baidu.com/p/2635557930
http://tieba.baidu.com/p/2639280657
http://tieba.baidu.com/p/2640611501
http://tieba.baidu.com/p/2644972469
http://tieba.baidu.com/p/2660001933
http://tieba.baidu.com/p/2743959025
http://tieba.baidu.com/p/2752586802
http://tieba.baidu.com/p/2762319162
http://tieba.baidu.com/p/2801119914
http://tieba.baidu.com/p/2967648821
http://tieba.baidu.com/p/3080332315
http://tieba.baidu.com/p/3080386826
http://tieba.baidu.com/home/main?un=%E5%AD%9F%E7%A6%A7%E5%AB%A1%E5%AD%99&ie=utf-8&fr=pb
http://tieba.baidu.com/f?ie=utf-8&kw=%E4%BA%8E%E4%B8%83%E8%B5%B7%E4%B9%89&fr=search

In the Mantis Quarterly posting I also listed some sources they used for their information which are:
辞海 Cihai
中国通史•明清史 Chinese history Ming and Qing history
中华历史名人大辞典 Chinese history people big dictionary
于七抗清史 Yu Qi fighting the Qing annals
栖霞县志 Xixia county annals

However, I am familiar with some of the speculation in Shandong about Sheng Xiao Daoren. I wrote: “There are some people in Shandong who speculate that 李炳霄 Li Bingxiao wrote under the pen name of Sheng Xiao Daoren. There are, however, other differing speculations.” all of which is true in that there are some people in Shandong who speculate that Li Bingxiao wrote using the pseudonym Sheng Xiao Daoren. It is also true that some people have different speculations about the situation as well. I am agreeing with Master Tunks when he says “The history of Sheng Xiao Daoren is debatable” and only slightly elaborated on one thought that some people have. I myself do not have this thought and I do not believe that Li Bingxiao wrote under the pseudonym of Sheng Xiao Daoren at all. It certainly was not my intention in the slightest bit to try to “elevate your own family tradition”.

Darin / Maofei

Fascinating stuff Darin! Thank you!

[mooyingmantis]

Not one single bit of Mantis history that I have seen have touched on the fact that Sheng Xiao Dao Ren was a fan of poetry and theater. He left behind a large body of work and sprinkled it with references to poetry from the Tang Dynasty and popular story telling during his lifetime.

Your work in this area is interesting.

[Maofei]

Brothers,
Thank you for the great support and for the clarification.

Since everyone seems alright and encouraging here's a little more info:
If Wang Lang and research are the topic: I haven’t seen anyone mention a supposedly real person named 王朗 Wang Lang (using 朗 instead of 郎) from Shandong province from the three kingdoms period named 王严 Wang Yan, style name 景兴 Jingxing (Wang Jingxing) whose granddaughter 王元姬 Wang Yuanji went on to marry Sima Zhou whose son 司马炎 Sima Yan became the first emperor of the Jin Dynasty 司马炎 Jin Wu Di Emperor Wu of Jin.

Additionally he is found in the famous Chinese classical work of fiction: 三国演义 Romance of the Three Kingdoms.

I’ve researched him in depth myself and written a lot privately on the subject so the above info is just a small intro.

You can read an overview about it if you would like:
http://baike.baidu.com/subview/109690/5566018.htm

You will find the sources listed as well.

One source used for 王朗 Wang Lang’s name being 王严 Wang Yan:
《三国志·卷十三·魏书十三·锺繇华歆王朗传第十三》裴松之注引《魏略》：朗本名严，后改为朗 。

Not that this real 王朗 Wang Lang from the three kingdoms period created mantis boxing. But, you never know, someone could always later speculate that his history or appearing in the Romance of the Three Kingdoms could have had an effect in the creation of the Wang Lang legends.

It was said "Wang Lang is not Yuqi, but there was a confusion about who these two people were so they have been mixed up." Maybe the above info is what was being referred to. This 王朗 Wang Lang also helped lead some battles just as Yu Qi did. However, this 王朗 Wang Lang was primarily a politician.

Warm regards,
-Darin / Maofei

[Tainan Mantis]

關于于七“觀螳螂捕蟬，悟螳螂拳法”一說，目前雖無文字可考，但追溯于七的
出身和家世以及整合各類民間傳說，于七在嶗山創螳螂拳是完全可信的。
As for Yu Qi's "inspiration of the mantis fist from observing a mantis seize
a cicada," at present there is no written documentation to prove this.
But, to trace the family history of Yu Qi and its relationship to popular
folk legends we can confirm without a doubt that the story of Yu Qi creating
Mantis fist at Lao Shan is true.


And with logic like this all credibility goes out the window. This is historical analysis at its worst.

A proper article would first seek to establish who he is. Then try to make a connection between him and whoever from some old text that is publicly available.

But a story that starts out with, "This is what I heard as a kid when the Liberation Army came to town in 1947 (over 300 years have passed)..." is not believable. So, for this reason I am reserving judgement until something more concrete materializes that links Yu Qi to anything beyond folklore.

[LaterthanNever]

"Chinese masters I have met have various opinions also and are little help in the matter. I do not believe there will ever be a definitive answer. Nor do I believe it matters."

And what opinions would those be please? Is the split equal between 7 star and PB for the first sub family? More to the point..am I the only one who expresses an interest in this subject?

[mooyingmantis]

"Chinese masters I have met have various opinions also and are little help in the matter. I do not believe there will ever be a definitive answer. Nor do I believe it matters."

And what opinions would those be please? Is the split equal between 7 star and PB for the first sub family? More to the point..am I the only one who expresses an interest in this subject?

Every family of mantis has their legend on the origins of mantis. Some agree, some are very different.

As you can see from Sifus Sun, Tunks, Brazier and myself there has been some studying on the subject.

However, myths, legends and partial histories have little to do with our day to day attempts to try and master our family's mantis style.

What was, is lost more and more each generation. What is, is what we can master!

[B.Tunks]

"Chinese masters I have met have various opinions also and are little help in the matter. I do not believe there will ever be a definitive answer. Nor do I believe it matters."

And what opinions would those be please? Is the split equal between 7 star and PB for the first sub family? More to the point..am I the only one who expresses an interest in this subject?

There's no doubt that what is shown in the clip (Lin Tanfang's material) is about as old as it gets as far as what's still around today in Shandong. Then again, the styles from Hebei - Tongbei TL/Shaolin TL could be even older. Whether that kind of TL is connected to Shandong TL - apart from being connected via foundation manuscripts - is another question.

As far as what's older between MH and QX, the name MH was probably coined earlier if we take Wang Yunsheng as the creator of QX. Names are funny though, as at various periods direct descendants of LXX used the QX name as well. They are really just brands and people didn't obsess about them as much as we do. Many names have also been administered retrospectively.

The thing is, some of what is at the core of QX came intact from Kuaishou Li - in other words, not entirely created by or introduced by WYS. Some of that material was/is also common to MH and predates the branding/split. So, there are parts of what is considered MH or TJTL today that are older than parts of QX (even that's debatable as things introduced from other boxing styles such as Mizong also have a substantial history) and there are parts of QX today that are as old as the parts of MH/TJ that predate the split.

There are a handful of forms that we can fairly safely count amongst the oldest extant routines of Shandong TL and these are well known - Ba Zhou, Luanjie/Lanjie, Zhaiyao (though there was an earlier version than the ones we see today) and Beng Bu. Some say Beng Bu actually came later but it looks like it was actually one of the earlier ones and is one of the commonalities between QX and MH.

[LaterthanNever]

As always..thank you all for your input!


What was, is lost more and more each generation. What is, is what we can master!"

Yes. I am not going to lie. I think that what some masters have done and refuse to teach everything they know and take 10% (arbitary number) with them to the grave is one of the most callous and spiteful things one can do. This is a great way for an art to dilute or even worse..become extinct. I have even heard that the late GM Ip Mans' Wing Chun teacher did not teach GM Ip the entire style(who knows?). One cannot say the same thing about GM Shum Leung of the Ying Jow Pai style..he has the opposite approach(thank the Good Lord).



There are a handful of forms that we can fairly safely count amongst the oldest extant routines of Shandong TL and these are well known - Ba Zhou, Luanjie/Lanjie, Zhaiyao (though there was an earlier version than the ones we see today) and Beng Bu."

Yes, Master Brazier mentioned to me once that a more interesting question to ask is not what the "oldest" style was, but the oldest *form* was/is(I am paraphrasing here Master Brazier so if I am taking your comment out of context, I apologize). Some have said the first documented form was Lan Jie and others say it was Bung Bu. Master Stuart Alve Olson says in his book that the earliest know style of manti was "Lan Jie praying mantis", which I found both interesting(and a bit confusing). Am I to understand that forms back then were considered separate styles in and of themselves?

As for me, I am an 8 step(Ba Bu) practitioner. Some has said that the late GM Wei did not learn Lan Jie since it is not a form in the 8 step curriculum. My thoughts are that his teacher GM Feng Huan Yi(who was a high level Ying Jow practitioner) learned it as "Jeet Kune" (Jie/Jeet same word). I believe that the form is the same though perhaps was modified when Lan Jie was conceived.

Apologies for my ignorance..was Lin Tan Fang a 7 star of PB practitioner? Thank you.

[B.Tunks]

was Lin Tan Fang a 7 star of PB practitioner? Thank you.

Meihua/PB. He was student/disciple of Xiu Kunshan, so a direct descendant of Liang Xuexiang.

[mooyingmantis]

Liang Xuexiang (1810-1895) wrote about:
Luanjie (chaotically connected) which later became known as Lanjie (intercepting)
Ba Zhou (eight elbows) which refers to short striking methods
Beng Bu (crash and fill) which later became know as Beng Bu (crashing step)

He is also credited by some with creating the six part Zhaiyao series. Some believe his student Jiang Hualong altered Zhaiyao and added a seventh section that focused on ground fighting.

Jiang Hualong and/or Song Zide created Meihua Lu. They also created a new Beng Bu passed down through the Taji Tanglanquan/Cui Shoushan line.

Mainland Seven Star has versions of each of these forms. They are fairly similar to the Plum Flower versions.

Hong Kong Seven Star forms are quite different from their Plum Flower counterparts.

As an aside, the Beng Bu of Qixing, Taiji, Taichi, Meihua and Taijimeihua Tanglang all share about 12 of the same moves, then depart from one another.

[xiao yao]

As always..thank you all for your input!


Yes, Master Brazier mentioned to me once that a more interesting question to ask is not what the "oldest" style was, but the oldest *form* was/is(I am paraphrasing here Master Brazier so if I am taking your comment out of context, I apologize). Some have said the first documented form was Lan Jie and others say it was Bung Bu. Master Stuart Alve Olson says in his book that the earliest know style of manti was "Lan Jie praying mantis", which I found both interesting(and a bit confusing). Am I to understand that forms back then were considered separate styles in and of themselves?

As for me, I am an 8 step(Ba Bu) practitioner. Some has said that the late GM Wei did not learn Lan Jie since it is not a form in the 8 step curriculum. My thoughts are that his teacher GM Feng Huan Yi(who was a high level Ying Jow practitioner) learned it as "Jeet Kune" (Jie/Jeet same word). I believe that the form is the same though perhaps was modified when Lan Jie was conceived.

Apologies for my ignorance..was Lin Tan Fang a 7 star of PB practitioner? Thank you.

I've read Stuart Alve Olson's book. In my opinion he makes some wild conclusions based on some sketchy research. He tries to suggest Wang Lang and Zhang San Feng are the same people, and Taiji and Mantis are essentially the same style that descended differently, just coz of similar stories involving watching animals fighting. He goes on to list all these branches of Mantis which I highly doubt ever existed in Shandong. He also has some very sketchy explanations for things like 7 long 8 short.

Also, I believe Jeet Kune is a form taken from the Jingwu curriculum, but maybe Im wrong?

[LaterthanNever]

"He tries to suggest Wang Lang and Zhang San Feng are the same people,"

I must have missed that..interesting



"Also, I believe Jeet Kune is a form taken from the Jingwu curriculum, but maybe Im wrong? "

Possible. Though I believe the core Jing Wu sets were sort of absorbed from the styles which were taught under one roof(so to speak)?

[xiao yao]

You are right.... Jingwu was a bunch of different styles taught under one roof... but everybody had to learn Mizong Quan sets first I believe, which is why HK Mantis has so many long fist sets in their curriculum compared to Shandong styles