Alan Orr Chi Sao to Gor Sao clip.

[Alan Orr]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpKncYG7rUk

Alan Orr Chi Sao to Gor Sao clip.

New Clip today. This is Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun. It may be different to some others. Just sharing my clip.

[nasmedicine]

Nice clip, but I just want to ask if in this particular clip you and your student were going free style... or were you playing the role of the aggressor, while your student was simply stood on the defensive?

If the latter is the case then great clip. If the former, then it came across to me that your student was perhaps afraid or holding back (likely out of respect for you, his sifu?) In either case thanks for sharing.

Btw, I understand that you two are not "going all out", in case there was any confusion.

- Cheers

[Sean66]

A lot of leaning on your partner and pressing on his arms with your upper body.
You can see that your heels often come of the ground, a sure sign that you're "falling" forward while pushing/hitting with primarily your upper body strength.

Although this obviously works for you, it may not work for a weaker person against someone who is stronger. The goal, in my opinion (and with all due respect) is to use the principals of leverage and not brute strength to gain advantage.
This can only come through respecting certain body principals, like vertical alignment and "fixed elbow".

[Alan Orr]

Nice clip, but I just want to ask if in this particular clip you and your student were going free style... or were you playing the role of the aggressor, while your student was simply stood on the defensive?

If the latter is the case then great clip. If the former, then it came across to me that your student was perhaps afraid or holding back (likely out of respect for you, his sifu?) In either case thanks for sharing.

Btw, I understand that you two are not "going all out", in case there was any confusion.

- Cheers

Yes this is free style. Sai is one of my top students. He was trying to attack. As he is very good I stepped it up for him, otherwise at his level if would be the other way around if I came down a gear. Funny as a beginner and a advance student can look the same once they are a few steps behind. This was part of his test so I was not giving him a chance as such.

Sai was not holding back, when we glove spar I do get hit more, in Chi Sao as we have bridge contact I have a few more gears they my students.

[GlennR]

Yes this is free style. Sai is one of my top students. He was trying to attack. As he is very good I stepped it up for him, otherwise at his level if would be the other way around if I came down a gear. Funny as a beginner and a advance student can look the same once they are a few steps behind. This was part of his test so I was not giving him a chance as such.

Sai was not holding back, when we glove spar I do get hit more, in Chi Sao as we have bridge contact I have a few more gears they my students.

Usually a fan Alan, but not one of your better clips

[Alan Orr]

A lot of leaning on your partner and pressing on his arms with your upper body.
You can see that your heels often come of the ground, a sure sign that you're "falling" forward while pushing/hitting with primarily your upper body strength.

Although this obviously works for you, it may not work for a weaker person against someone who is stronger. The goal, in my opinion (and with all due respect) is to use the principals of leverage and not brute strength to gain advantage.
This can only come through respecting certain body principals, like vertical alignment and "fixed elbow".

I am not leaning I have issuing. It I was leaning he would be able to take my balance. We use our whole body, thats not brute strength it is applied strength and power. They girls I teach and smaller guys have great power. The elbow is not fixed as it must be able to move. The control of the elbow is key.

[Alan Orr]

Usually a fan Alan, but not one of your better clips


That's okay. Its just a real clip of real training for our system.

I know we train and use our wing chun in a way that some people would disagree with, which is all cool. I just like to put out a different view for people to see.

I see so many clips that show wing chun that would never stand up under any pressure so I like to show wing chun in action rather that demo clips of chi sao drills.

[GlennR]

That's okay. Its just a real clip of real training for our system.

I know we train and use our wing chun in a way that some people would disagree with, which is all cool. I just like to put out a different view for people to see.

I see so many clips that show wing chun that would never stand up under any pressure so I like to show wing chun in action rather that demo clips of chi sao drills.

Fair enough Alan, but the guy never throws a punch back at you

[Alan Orr]

Fair enough Alan, but the guy never throws a punch back at you

As I said it was part of his test. So I never gave him the chance. The pressure I give into his structure is like a pinning pressure. It makes it hard to counter or to feel you you have balance or position to attack back from. Also once the gears go up it hard for others to stay in the game.

[GlennR]

As I said it was part of his test. So I never gave him the chance. The pressure I give into his structure is like a pinning pressure. It makes it hard to counter or to feel you you have balance or position to attack back from. Also once the gears go up it hard for others to stay in the game.

Yeh, i get that, but theres plenty of opportunities for him to throw some punches back. Around the 1.00m onwards he just covers up (he even looks down a lot) when theres big breaks in any contact.

[Alan Orr]

Yeh, i get that, but theres plenty of opportunities for him to throw some punches back. Around the 1.00m onwards he just covers up (he even looks down a lot) when theres big breaks in any contact.

Yes of course, I am sure he would say the same. Not so easy sometimes. He was under some pressure at the time.

[GlennR]

Yes of course, I am sure he would say the same. Not so easy sometimes. He was under some pressure at the time.

How long has he been training?

[chris bougeard]

Hi, i have been a lurker on this forum for some time and thought on this occasion that i would comment. I am also a student under Alan Orr Sifu and have trained under him for almost 8 years. I have played chi sao with my teacher many times and it is very difficult to land any shots/destroy his structure when he is playing his "a" game. Trust me, i DO try to control/hit him when im playing chi sao, if i wasnt trying he would probably put me under more pressure and insist i DO try to hit him.

We dont do compliant chi sao in the Chu Sau lei system, its just not our way.

Sai Jun Mak is one of my kung fu brothers and is highly skilled, my teacher in this clip is simply not allowing him any openings. If he did im sure Sai would have taken them.

Chris

[sanjuro_ronin]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpKncYG7rUk

Alan Orr Chi Sao to Gor Sao clip.

New Clip today. This is Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun. It may be different to some others. Just sharing my clip.

I would have liked to see a bit more angled footwork, which tends to be the "answer" to chi sao, but I have always liked how the CSL system is aggressive with their pressuring in their clinch work.
I think he was respecting you too much Alan ;)

[Alan Orr]

How long has he been training?

10 Years +

8 Years with me

[Alan Orr]

Do you guys do lat sao jik chun drills in chi-sao ? I ask because in the clip there is 'air' between each person and no strikes ?

Yes of course, but that's not the only skill needed in fighting. Controlling space is a higher skill you get from working the bridge in glove sparring. That's why it was Chi Sao to Gor Sao. Its not just rolling.

[Alan Orr]

I would have liked to see a bit more angled footwork, which tends to be the "answer" to chi sao, but I have always liked how the CSL system is aggressive with their pressuring in their clinch work.
I think he was respecting you too much Alan ;)

It is what it is. Its just one clip of some of our training. You deal with what you need to deal with at the that time. Its not a demo.

[Alan Orr]

Hi, i have been a lurker on this forum for some time and thought on this occasion that i would comment. I am also a student under Alan Orr Sifu and have trained under him for almost 8 years. I have played chi sao with my teacher many times and it is very difficult to land any shots/destroy his structure when he is playing his "a" game. Trust me, i DO try to control/hit him when im playing chi sao, if i wasnt trying he would probably put me under more pressure and insist i DO try to hit him.

We dont do compliant chi sao in the Chu Sau lei system, its just not our way.

Sai Jun Mak is one of my kung fu brothers and is highly skilled, my teacher in this clip is simply not allowing him any openings. If he did im sure Sai would have taken them.

Chris

Thanks brother

[nasmedicine]

Yes this is free style. Sai is one of my top students. He was trying to attack. As he is very good I stepped it up for him, otherwise at his level if would be the other way around if I came down a gear. Funny as a beginner and a advance student can look the same once they are a few steps behind. This was part of his test so I was not giving him a chance as such.

Sai was not holding back, when we glove spar I do get hit more, in Chi Sao as we have bridge contact I have a few more gears they my students.

I understand. You definitely where not giving him a chance, lol. :D Please keep sharing as do particularly like your clips.

- Cheers

[sanjuro_ronin]

It is what it is. Its just one clip of some of our training. You deal with what you need to deal with at the that time. Its not a demo.

No, it doesn't look like a demo.
I was just saying that many times students, KNOWING their teacher, give them more respect than they "should" ( Cause they know the teacher is better).
One of the reasons I prefer to see drills and sparring done by students than the teacher.
Not a critique Alan, simply an observation.

[Alan Orr]

I understand. You definitely where not giving him a chance, lol. :D Please keep sharing as do particularly like your clips.

- Cheers

Many thanks. Yes, we have lots more coming. I have lots of sparring with my pro fighters but we have to hold that right now as they have fights coming up and we want to keep harder stuff in house so the opponent don't get a look.

Are team has had 1 boxing win 2 K1 wins and 4 MMA wins in the last month.

best Alan

[wingchunIan]

Thanks for posting Alan. I love watching your clips and as you say in your signature what you train is in some cases a bit different. On this occassion i'd agree with glen that however long your student has been training he seemed frozen and simply covered up waiting to be hit. Maybe it was out of respect, maybe just a bad day / session (only he will know), but there were plenty of opportunities for him to initiate / attack, defend / counter even allowing for your extra ability.
Only an opinion of course.

[Alan Orr]

Thanks for posting Alan. I love watching your clips and as you say in your signature what you train is in some cases a bit different. On this occassion i'd agree with glen that however long your student has been training he seemed frozen and simply covered up waiting to be hit. Maybe it was out of respect, maybe just a bad day / session (only he will know), but there were plenty of opportunities for him to initiate / attack, defend / counter even allowing for your extra ability.
Only an opinion of course.


Thanks Ian. For sure he did more cover up than attack. But that was due to the pressure. Under pressure you can not always do the counter that can be seen by people under no pressure. It was a pressure test and for me its about holding it together under high pressure and trying to stay in the game. In BJJ if you are out gunned you just wait and stay safe as you can until you chance comes. Guys that go crazy get tapped quick. So yes he did freeze up for sure, but he is very skilled and a strong big guy. The key was to try to stay within the limits of Chi Sai and Gor Sao and not loose his mental control. When I spar with gloves with Sai he lands more strikes than in Chi Sao, but Chi Sao does have limits. My control of skill in Chi Sao in not bad so should be able to take control of him. If he was able to hit me back more, then people would be saying you are getting hit to much. lol
The reason we post these clips is no reason. Its just normal training. I am trying to get away from all the BS in wing chun from people that can't fight or don't train in a way that is testing what they are teaching. Lets just train and share clips of real training. What happen at 2.45 or 3.15 or when he looks that way or when my elbow was here or there is all pointless. That's not what its about

[Alan Orr]

No, it doesn't look like a demo.
I was just saying that many times students, KNOWING their teacher, give them more respect than they "should" ( Cause they know the teacher is better).
One of the reasons I prefer to see drills and sparring done by students than the teacher.
Not a critique Alan, simply an observation.

This is true. My guys fight so they come at me hard as we don't have that type of thing where you can't hit as I am the teacher going on. For sure if I go hard it causes them to freeze up more but that's the test. I have other guys that just go harder and harder as well lol On the same weekend we did over 15 hours training. I got punched, kicked, taken down, rocked and tapped! and I was teaching them! That's a more than normal weekend for us.

[Ali. R]

I don’t see anything he’s doing wrong and choose not to, because he’s just doing what he does.

I would beat my student silly if they don’t try to hit me back, all of my students are told to hit me and hit for real, the only reason why it looks like they're giving me respect is; because they can’t get pass my defense…

Offenses is only and mostly crap to me; because anyone could throw a good punch, but can one stop a punch for real with good structure ; when it really counts.

That’s what’s up,

[imperialtaichi]

I know we train and use our wing chun in a way that some people would disagree with, which is all cool. I just like to put out a different view for people to see.

True, even boxers argue over the finer points in a hook; but Alan, more people should agree with you. If not the technical detail but at least on your approach. You got my vote.

[Wayfaring]

The reason we post these clips is no reason. Its just normal training. I am trying to get away from all the BS in wing chun from people that can't fight or don't train in a way that is testing what they are teaching. Lets just train and share clips of real training. What happen at 2.45 or 3.15 or when he looks that way or when my elbow was here or there is all pointless. That's not what its about

To me you guys train normally, like how I train with a MMA team, except my team's base art and the coach's background is Dutch MT not WCK. I post few clips of that training (but posted fights on the sticky thread) as everyone would say "that's not WCK". I don't have a lot of comments on your clips because to me they look like "hey, there's some guys training". A lot of other clips to me look like "hey, there's some guys slap fighting, or acting like they know ground work, or crashing into mirrors".

[guy b.]

To me you guys train normally, like how I train with a MMA team, except my team's base art and the coach's background is Dutch MT not WCK. I post few clips of that training (but posted fights on the sticky thread) as everyone would say "that's not WCK". I don't have a lot of comments on your clips because to me they look like "hey, there's some guys training". A lot of other clips to me look like "hey, there's some guys slap fighting, or acting like they know ground work, or crashing into mirrors".

To people like Wayfaring and Sanjuro Ronin, why does this clip of training footage get a mostly free pass (minus some gentle ribbing about a non responding student) when much better clips of chi/gor sau are ripped to shreds for not being full on fighting?

Alan is even allowed to state nonchalently that this is just his normal training and that he is trying to get away from all the normal BS wing chun from people that don't even train (when in fact all wing chun people do chi/gor sau and most do sparring).

Maybe you are all acting a bit like Alan's student in the clip?

[Alan Orr]

To people like Wayfaring and Sanjuro Ronin, why does this clip of training footage get a mostly free pass (minus some gentle ribbing about a non responding student) when much better clips of chi/gor sau are ripped to shreds for not being full on fighting?

Alan is even allowed to state nonchalently that this is just his normal training and that he is trying to get away from all the normal BS wing chun from people that don't even train (when in fact all wing chun people do chi/gor sau and most do sparring).

Maybe you are all acting a bit like Alan's student in the clip?

It's all down to opinion too which is better or not. That's why some will like what I do and other will like other methods. Of course you have made clear your dislike to me in other posts so it would be no surprise that you would like this clip.

Please post your clips so we can see what would be better.

[Alan Orr]

To me you guys train normally, like how I train with a MMA team, except my team's base art and the coach's background is Dutch MT not WCK. I post few clips of that training (but posted fights on the sticky thread) as everyone would say "that's not WCK". I don't have a lot of comments on your clips because to me they look like "hey, there's some guys training". A lot of other clips to me look like "hey, there's some guys slap fighting, or acting like they know ground work, or crashing into mirrors".


Thank you. Someone who gets it.

[Alan Orr]

I don’t see anything he’s doing wrong and choose not to, because he’s just doing what he does.

I would beat my student silly if they don’t try to hit me back, all of my students are told to hit me and hit for real, the only reason why it looks like they're giving me respect is; because they can’t get pass my defense…

Offenses is only and mostly crap to me; because anyone could throw a good punch, but can one stop a punch for real with good structure ; when it really counts.

That’s what’s up,

Agree, nice.

[Alan Orr]

True, even boxers argue over the finer points in a hook; but Alan, more people should agree with you. If not the technical detail but at least on your approach. You got my vote.

Many thanks.

[Alan Orr]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SJrVX2Nr68

In this clip I am giving my student less pressure and more time to react.

This was our normal learning pressure.

[GlennR]

To people like Wayfaring and Sanjuro Ronin, why does this clip of training footage get a mostly free pass (minus some gentle ribbing about a non responding student) when much better clips of chi/gor sau are ripped to shreds for not being full on fighting?

Alan is even allowed to state nonchalently that this is just his normal training and that he is trying to get away from all the normal BS wing chun from people that don't even train (when in fact all wing chun people do chi/gor sau and most do sparring).

Maybe you are all acting a bit like Alan's student in the clip?

Yep, if it was Kevins clip of him belting a student around they'd be all over him ike a bad suit

[Alan Orr]

Yep, if it was Kevins clip of him belting a student around they'd be all over him ike a bad suit

post the clip

[GlennR]

post the clip

There isnt one, its a hypothetical

[Alan Orr]

There isnt one, its a hypothetical

Oh right. Bit of a pointless example then.

[GlennR]

Oh right. Bit of a pointless example then.

Not at all.

Alan, ive always said i have liked your stuff.... i just wasnt a fan of that clip.

Guys point was, and i agreed, that if it was anyone other than you (i used the example of Kevin) that the response from forum members would have been different.

[Alan Orr]

Not at all.

Alan, ive always said i have liked your stuff.... i just wasnt a fan of that clip.

Guys point was, and i agreed, that if it was anyone other than you (i used the example of Kevin) that the response from forum members would have been different.



That's all cool.

But if it was a clip that was not by me, then of course opinion's may be different. It would be a different clip. I can't see the point in the comments about that.

[guy b.]

It's all down to opinion too which is better or not. That's why some will like what I do and other will like other methods. Of course you have made clear your dislike to me in other posts so it would be no surprise that you would like this clip.

Please post your clips so we can see what would be better.

I don't dislike you and I respect the contest achievements of your team of people.

I am just highlighting the way people are responding to this clip vs the way they respond to other clips of chi/gor sau when any objective person would agree that there are better (and worse) chi/gor sau clips on youtube.

My point is really about the attitudes of a faction of people of the forum, not about your clip.

[Wayfaring]

To people like Wayfaring and Sanjuro Ronin, why does this clip of training footage get a mostly free pass (minus some gentle ribbing about a non responding student) when much better clips of chi/gor sau are ripped to shreds for not being full on fighting?

I don't know, man, I'm just giving my impression. Post up "better clips of chi/gor sau" and I'll give you my impression of those too. Post up why you think they are better too.

In general I like drills and sparring that train people for motions that happen in real fighting. Thus the motions would be how someone would look in real fighting. When I see clips that show a bunch of pitty pat slapping like motions that someone couldn't use to free themselves from a wet paper bag, then I usually don't like it.

[Wayfaring]

Yep, if it was Kevins clip of him belting a student around they'd be all over him ike a bad suit

Oh, I don't know. It's not rocket science to spot fighting skill. Even the old man on our MMA team that fights roosters and drives people cross the country for fights could probably get it about 95% right watching clips.

[Alan Orr]

I don't dislike you and I respect the contest achievements of your team of people.

I am just highlighting the way people are responding to this clip vs the way they respond to other clips of chi/gor sau when any objective person would agree that there are better (and worse) chi/gor sau clips on youtube.

My point is really about the attitudes of a faction of people of the forum, not about your clip.

What you are highlighting is you don't agree with the other comments. People can make their own views. You don't have to sit on the fence. Not all things are objective if you feel you can see an answer. That's people's opinions. On the whole I always have excellent feedback. Only a few of the same people have the same few comments. Which is all fine, but then telling others they must have the same view is a different thing altogether. I am not sure of the point in that.

[Alan Orr]

I don't know, man, I'm just giving my impression. Post up "better clips of chi/gor sau" and I'll give you my impression of those too. Post up why you think they are better too.

In general I like drills and sparring that train people for motions that happen in real fighting. Thus the motions would be how someone would look in real fighting. When I see clips that show a bunch of pitty pat slapping like motions that someone couldn't use to free themselves from a wet paper bag, then I usually don't like it.

Yes I would agree on that 100% I see so many wing chun demo's that are just so far away from the real thing.

[GlennR]

What you are highlighting is you don't agree with the other comments. People can make their own views. You don't have to sit on the fence. Not all things are objective if you feel you can see an answer. That's people's opinions. On the whole I always have excellent feedback. Only a few of the same people have the same few comments. Which is all fine, but then telling others they must have the same view is a different thing altogether. I am not sure of the point in that.

No one told anyone they should have the same point of view, it was personal views that were expressed.
And in this thread the people that have questioned your clip arent the same people that have challenged you previous clips.

So to use your line, i dont see the point of you bringing that up

[Alan Orr]

No one told anyone they should have the same point of view, it was personal views that were expressed.
And in this thread the people that have questioned your clip arent the same people that have challenged you previous clips.

So to use your line, i dont see the point of you bringing that up


Yes guy b was telling people that. That is why I made the comment. Again all pointless

[GlennR]

Yes guy b was telling people that. That is why I made the comment. Again all pointless

Ok, well ill bail from this thread

[Frost]

To people like Wayfaring and Sanjuro Ronin, why does this clip of training footage get a mostly free pass (minus some gentle ribbing about a non responding student) when much better clips of chi/gor sau are ripped to shreds for not being full on fighting?

Alan is even allowed to state nonchalently that this is just his normal training and that he is trying to get away from all the normal BS wing chun from people that don't even train (when in fact all wing chun people do chi/gor sau and most do sparring).

Maybe you are all acting a bit like Alan's student in the clip?

Although I wasn’t named (don’t feel bad I know you meant me as well) I’ll answer
My main criitism is that we see lots of chi say clips, almost no sparing clips and certainly even less fighting clips from the schools that post these clips, they seem to think chi sau is the big training secret, I have always stated that structure falls apart under pressure... well alan does pressure test his guys, he has plenty of clips of them sparring and fighting MMA and thai

And because its only part of his training, and he is trying to get away from all the bull and actually posts fighting and hard sparring. I don’t mind this clip, personally id rather do light clinch work than this, but im not a wing chun guy
If Kevin posted clips of just chi sau, and kept talking about how scientific wing chun fighting was i wouldn’t be impressed, if he also posted clips of his guys fighting full contact I might be and I wouldn’t rag on him, people posting endless chi sau clips without hard sparring and fighting clips is for me pointless as we can’t see the end result
As I say the clip for me isn’t anything special but alans not pretending it is, its just part of his training, but I appreciate there is pressure being applied and more importantly we can see by alans sparring and fighting clips of his students the outcome for him this sort of training brings

[sanjuro_ronin]

To people like Wayfaring and Sanjuro Ronin, why does this clip of training footage get a mostly free pass (minus some gentle ribbing about a non responding student) when much better clips of chi/gor sau are ripped to shreds for not being full on fighting?

Alan is even allowed to state nonchalently that this is just his normal training and that he is trying to get away from all the normal BS wing chun from people that don't even train (when in fact all wing chun people do chi/gor sau and most do sparring).

Maybe you are all acting a bit like Alan's student in the clip?

Context, that's why.
Alan HAS showed clips of them fighting, MANY clips.
If he now chooses to show a more complaint drill clip, the context will dictate the response.
If all Alan puts up were clips like that, He WOULD get asked "where's the beef?"
As for "much better clips", well...that is subjective of course.
As for "a;; wing chun people" doing chi sao and sparring.
I'll give you that one, yes all WC people do chi sao and sparring ( of some sort).

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yep, if it was Kevins clip of him belting a student around they'd be all over him ike a bad suit

You mean a Kevin's clip of Philip Bayer doing that, right?
:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SJrVX2Nr68

In this clip I am giving my student less pressure and more time to react.

This was our normal learning pressure.

Any reason you guys don't use head gear of some sort?

[Frost]

You mean a Kevin's clip of Philip Bayer doing that, right?
:D

**** you beat me to it!:mad:

[sanjuro_ronin]

**** you beat me to it!:mad:

BBWWAHHH !!!

Hey, I like kevin's clips and have nothing but respect for GM Philip Bayer ( and David Peterson and Gary Lam, etc...).
I think the WSL lineage has the goods from what I have seen.
Having read WSL book I KNOW that WSL knew "what was what".
Fighters KNOW Fighters and while I do NOT put myself in the league of legends like WSL, when you have fought enough ( iin and out of the ring) there are things you "expect" to hear coming from a guy that has "walked the walk" and you hear that in WSL.
My biggest critique of all the videos Kevin puts up is none of them have full contact sparring, which is something He says they do.

[Frost]

BBWWAHHH !!!

Hey, I like kevin's clips and have nothing but respect for GM Philip Bayer ( and David Peterson and Gary Lam, etc...).
I think the WSL lineage has the goods from what I have seen.
Having read WSL book I KNOW that WSL knew "what was what".
Fighters KNOW Fighters and while I do NOT put myself in the league of legends like WSL, when you have fought enough ( iin and out of the ring) there are things you "expect" to hear coming from a guy that has "walked the walk" and you hear that in WSL.
My biggest critique of all the videos Kevin puts up is none of them have full contact sparring, which is something He says they do.

Yep amazing how that camera seems to disappear right about the time they say they start to make contact :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yep amazing how that camera seems to disappear right about the time they say they start to make contact :D

I don't doubt that they do fight full contact.
I assume its a pretty small number simply because most people do NOT do wing chun to fight full contact.
I would just love to see it to confirm a few things I think about it.

[Frost]

I don't doubt that they do fight full contact.
I assume its a pretty small number simply because most people do NOT do wing chun to fight full contact.
I would just love to see it to confirm a few things I think about it.

hey id settle for simply sparring clips with a bit of contact :)

surely they must be more Numerous?

[Phil Redmond]

This is true. My guys fight so they come at me hard as we don't have that type of thing where you can't hit as I am the teacher going on. For sure if I go hard it causes them to freeze up more but that's the test. I have other guys that just go harder and harder as well lol On the same weekend we did over 15 hours training. I got punched, kicked, taken down, rocked and tapped! and I was teaching them! That's a more than normal weekend for us.
Anyone who trains realistically WILL get hit. Even if it's your student. Some Sifus get upset if a student hits them so students are sometimes reluctant to really hit back. I've told students that hit me good job. I should've covered the line. . . :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Anyone who trains realistically WILL get hit. Even if it's your student. Some Sifus get upset if a student hits them so students are sometimes reluctant to really hit back. I've told students that hit me good job. I should've covered the line. . . :)

Yeah, but you k now that at times, students give their Sifu "too much" respect.

[sanjuro_ronin]

In Okinawa they have a saying:
100 styles, 100 sanchin.

I think it is time for WC to adapt that saying for chi sao:
100 styles, 100 chi sao's
Because it is very clear that each system, each style, indeed, each lineage, has their OWN idea of Chi sao.

[imperialtaichi]

This IS the idea we are using to attack people with, mental pressure , relentless attacking skills, will induce errors...hopefully ;)

My strategy: I don't "simultaneous defence and attack." Attack is my defence.

[k gledhill]

My strategy: I don't "simultaneous defence and attack." Attack is my defence.

Agree [like] VT is developing the skills to intercept incoming lines of force at us at the same time we are attempting to execute 'attacking'. So I dont eat a punch on the way in , etc...mindlessly.

Ambush attacking, with the ability to maintain a calm relentless finish.

[Phil Redmond]

hey id settle for simply sparring clips with a bit of contact :)

surely they must be more Numerous?
Here's a couple.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7LXC6Njto0&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsS2WUlq8C0


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lb9-KSC1fPQ&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YP05PC3ReW0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39-unagGqPw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1bSkRY3iWI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WSCcj6PbLo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-TT-6JeSZE

[k gledhill]

Here's a couple.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7LXC6Njto0&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsS2WUlq8C0


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lb9-KSC1fPQ&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YP05PC3ReW0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39-unagGqPw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1bSkRY3iWI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WSCcj6PbLo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-TT-6JeSZE

@ 58 years old thats inspiring to a lot of couch potatoes ;)

[Frost]

Here's a couple.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7LXC6Njto0&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsS2WUlq8C0


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lb9-KSC1fPQ&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YP05PC3ReW0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39-unagGqPw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1bSkRY3iWI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WSCcj6PbLo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-TT-6JeSZE

was on about Kevin and the PB crowd, i know you spar phil we have been through this!

[k gledhill]

was on about Kevin and the PB crowd, i know you spar phil we have been through this!

He knows, so do we all, you're here to bait and rag on anything kg and pb ...RMM ;)

[chris bougeard]

Mr Gledhill,

You seem very quick to criticize any clips people put up. You also are very keen to explain in some detail what people are doing wrong in these clips. Criticism is good and to be expected whenever people post clips, thats a given. However, you seem to be very reluctant to show all us practitioners who are stumbling around in the dark how to do things right via the medium you are so quick to criticize : video.

So how about you put up a clip of your chi sao/ gor sao, not a clip of someone who does "what you do" but a clip of you and one of your students. I for one would be interested in seeing all of the endless advice you have in application, always good seeing how other lineages apply themselves.

[Alan Orr]

Although I wasn’t named (don’t feel bad I know you meant me as well) I’ll answer
My main criitism is that we see lots of chi say clips, almost no sparing clips and certainly even less fighting clips from the schools that post these clips, they seem to think chi sau is the big training secret, I have always stated that structure falls apart under pressure... well alan does pressure test his guys, he has plenty of clips of them sparring and fighting MMA and thai

And because its only part of his training, and he is trying to get away from all the bull and actually posts fighting and hard sparring. I don’t mind this clip, personally id rather do light clinch work than this, but im not a wing chun guy
If Kevin posted clips of just chi sau, and kept talking about how scientific wing chun fighting was i wouldn’t be impressed, if he also posted clips of his guys fighting full contact I might be and I wouldn’t rag on him, people posting endless chi sau clips without hard sparring and fighting clips is for me pointless as we can’t see the end result
As I say the clip for me isn’t anything special but alans not pretending it is, its just part of his training, but I appreciate there is pressure being applied and more importantly we can see by alans sparring and fighting clips of his students the outcome for him this sort of training brings

Good points.

[Alan Orr]

Any reason you guys don't use head gear of some sort?

Some of my guys do when we are doing heavy Chinese Boxing sparring for fights. But never for chi sao as I think it trains the wrong thing. Guys just chain punching each other in head guards is not like a real fight, also to me is training the wrong thing - not to deal with the punch. Guys need to learn when they been hit what to do to stay in the fight. The head guard guys don't even know when they been hit. That's just my view of it. Also the other side of it is when attacking in Chi Sao we like to learn to control our power and explosiveness, then all you need to do is had an extra bite to it when its for real.

[LoneTiger108]

In Okinawa they have a saying:
100 styles, 100 sanchin.

I think it is time for WC to adapt that saying for chi sao:
100 styles, 100 chi sao's
Because it is very clear that each system, each style, indeed, each lineage, has their OWN idea of Chi sao.

Pretty sad really if we have to follow in line with people that could never agree on their stuff!

What I think you are seeing is te way people express their ideas of chisau in 'words' is very different from family to family, Sifu to Sifu. But I bet that if you crossed hands with all the people that show these differences their Chisau will be pretty similar.

Using words to express actions isn't the best idea when the original meaning has already been manipulated and in some cases lost entirely. :(

[Alan Orr]

Anyone who trains realistically WILL get hit. Even if it's your student. Some Sifus get upset if a student hits them so students are sometimes reluctant to really hit back. I've told students that hit me good job. I should've covered the line. . . :)

Very true Phil

[sanjuro_ronin]

Some of my guys do when we are doing heavy Chinese Boxing sparring for fights. But never for chi sao as I think it trains the wrong thing. Guys just chain punching each other in head guards is not like a real fight, also to me is training the wrong thing - not to deal with the punch. Guys need to learn when they been hit what to do to stay in the fight. The head guard guys don't even know when they been hit. That's just my view of it. Also the other side of it is when attacking in Chi Sao we like to learn to control our power and explosiveness, then all you need to do is had an extra bite to it when its for real.

Well, I think you need to make "hard enough" contact to keep things honest and the reactions honest and if you want a guy to learn how to deal with being hit, you need to hit him.
Not sure what head guards you are thinking of...

[Alan Orr]

Here's a couple.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7LXC6Njto0&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsS2WUlq8C0


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lb9-KSC1fPQ&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YP05PC3ReW0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39-unagGqPw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1bSkRY3iWI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WSCcj6PbLo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-TT-6JeSZE


I like it. See - different style, different views. But the common ground is testing it, putting clips up, sharing, and not just repeating what their teach told them.
Great work Phil

[Alan Orr]

Easy to copy, amazingly difficult to maintain correct energy focus, under increasing pressures and speeds. This IS the idea we are using to attack people with, mental pressure , relentless attacking skills, will induce errors...hopefully ;)

Lat sao jik chun IS the fundamental striking idea that makes or breaks VT.

Lat sao Jik chun is just part of wing chun is not wing chun. Wing Chun is much deeper than that.

[Frost]

Well, I think you need to make "hard enough" contact to keep things honest and the reactions honest and if you want a guy to learn how to deal with being hit, you need to hit him.
Not sure what head guards you are thinking of...

He probably means those bubble plastic head guards you see most wing chun using, and it does become chain punching conest with those for the most part lol

[Alan Orr]

He probably means those bubble plastic head guards you see most wing chun using, and it does become chain punching conest with those for the most part lol

Correct, too funny. So many bad clips of that.

[Alan Orr]

Well, I think you need to make "hard enough" contact to keep things honest and the reactions honest and if you want a guy to learn how to deal with being hit, you need to hit him.
Not sure what head guards you are thinking of...



Yes we do we spar every week full contact with boxing gloves. I don't use a head guard, some of the guys do when a fight is coming up as the power goes up and they can help stop some cuts.

Not a fan of the face covered head guards for chi sao or sparring.

[Sean66]

Using head guards has it's pluses and minuses. But just because you use them does not mean, a priori, that it's going to turn into a chain-punching contest.

Most of the time we train without gloves and head guards, even when sparring. But the risk of injury is high, so when sparring approaches full contact we use protection. Although people need to feel what it's like to hit and get hit, avoiding injury during training has to be a priority.

[chris bougeard]

I have sparred with and without head guards with cages on and you definately get more of a shock when hit square in the head when not wearing the guard.

With the guard on you tend to shrug off the hit more easily as the shock factor aint there and tend to get a little sloppy with your head defence as a result.

However, one of the benefits imo to sparring without guards is you get used to dealing with the WOW! factor that you feel when getting caught flush. This is very useful for real fighting as you tend not to panic so much if you do get hit during an exchange.

[Alan Orr]

Using head guards has it's pluses and minuses. But just because you use them does not mean, a priori, that it's going to turn into a chain-punching contest.

Most of the time we train without gloves and head guards, even when sparring. But the risk of injury is high, so when sparring approaches full contact we use protection. Although people need to feel what it's like to hit and get hit, avoiding injury during training has to be a priority.

For sure, Head guards can be okay. But I have not seen good use of them in chi sao or sparring when they are the closed faced type, that's all.

Yes we avoid injury by being in control of our power and not hitting it someone is hurt etc. But for fight training we do have 2 weeks of hard sparring with or without head guards. My main point is a lot of chi sao and sparring with closed faced guard guards is often poor.

[Alan Orr]

I have sparred with and without head guards with cages on and you definately get more of a shock when hit square in the head when not wearing the guard.

With the guard on you tend to shrug off the hit more easily as the shock factor aint there and tend to get a little sloppy with your head defence as a result.

However, one of the benefits imo to sparring without guards is you get used to dealing with the WOW! factor that you feel when getting caught flush. This is very useful for real fighting as you tend not to panic so much if you do get hit during an exchange.

Yes correct Chris. Last time we did 3 hard rounds together without head guards you stepped up your skill and awareness and showed heart under pressure and also rocked me a few times. Big difference from the training you had before. Now you can fight and can give as good as you get. That's the real lesson in sparring, being able to play the game.

[Sai Jun Mak]

Hi

I never normally post forum comments but thought you might like to hear my thoughts on this thread as it is me training with Alan in the clip.

First of all I’m surprised no one has commented on the aliveness, power and functionality of movement in the footage. So different to what is generally seen in most WC training. That is the first thing that strikes me about the clip….

Some of the comments here reflect what my previous teacher had said regarding the clip when he saw it (we are still good friends although its also worth noting he gave up training WC after experiencing the CSL system via Sifu Orr – he was too disheartened to continue WC after discovering his years of training WC could not stand up to the structural power and control of CSL and in reality would probably not hold up to any other aggressive or skilled opponent)

My old teacher commented that I could have done better and I was too passive etc. What I explained to him was that experiencing Sifu’s chi sao during that session in the clip cannot be appreciated by merely observing – it must be felt. When we are in bridge contact Sifu’s positional & structural control, power, speed and timing is at a much higher level than mine, as he’s said on this thread he is really pressuring me and I’m not able to find the space or time to defend the openings that would enable me to begin to counter attack. In terms of the way we approach chi sao training, a counter attack is pointless unless I have structural control first, anything else is a cheap shot, which wouldn’t help my skill development. Remember - its training not fighting!

My first priority is to maintain my own structural alignment and power base as best I can, which I feel I did quite well, and its really no easy task, believe me. Again, this can’t be appreciated without experiencing the CSL system or Sifu Orr for that matter.

Now Sifu’s dominance of timing and positional and tactical awareness also carries through to our non-bridge contact. When we are dis-engaged we are both looking for an entry. This is where the skill of feinting and baiting the opponent comes in. Every time I make a subtle shift or movement I am aware Sifu has covered that gate and has planned his own attack, the body punches and leg kicks Sifu is giving me are HARD!! which makes me more hesitant and tentative. This part of the game then becomes more mental and really this is where the highest levels of skill are explored once both participants have the correct application of physical skill – again all part of the training. For me to attack knowing I do not already have the positional or timing advantage would leave my defence far too open, which could make the situation worse for me from a tactical point of view.

You may not understand this as many WC practitioners do not heavy spar. Part of my focus at that training camp was to teach me that I can in fact stay safe providing I use correct movement and proper defensive structural methods even with heavy onslaught of strikes and even if I get hit. As that was my main focus over the weekend I guess that training idea also carried through to the chi sao / gor sao in the clip.

Yes, perhaps I could have been more aggressive in my attack or counter attack but I guess that’s the whole purpose of training and filming it in the first place – to help one analyse for the further development of one’s game.

I would love to see how some other non CSL practitioners would deal with that pressure – LOL!!

The best part of the clip for me was my huge smile at the end – I think that shows good attitude to tough training.

Sai

[Alan Orr]

Hi

I never normally post forum comments but thought you might like to hear my thoughts on this thread as it is me training with Alan in the clip.

First of all I’m surprised no one has commented on the aliveness, power and functionality of movement in the footage. So different to what is generally seen in most WC training. That is the first thing that strikes me about the clip….

Some of the comments here reflect what my previous teacher had said regarding the clip when he saw it (we are still good friends although its also worth noting he gave up training WC after experiencing the CSL system via Sifu Orr – he was too disheartened to continue WC after discovering his years of training WC could not stand up to the structural power and control of CSL and in reality would probably not hold up to any other aggressive or skilled opponent)

My old teacher commented that I could have done better and I was too passive etc. What I explained to him was that experiencing Sifu’s chi sao during that session in the clip cannot be appreciated by merely observing – it must be felt. When we are in bridge contact Sifu’s positional & structural control, power, speed and timing is at a much higher level than mine, as he’s said on this thread he is really pressuring me and I’m not able to find the space or time to defend the openings that would enable me to begin to counter attack. In terms of the way we approach chi sao training, a counter attack is pointless unless I have structural control first, anything else is a cheap shot, which wouldn’t help my skill development. Remember - its training not fighting!

My first priority is to maintain my own structural alignment and power base as best I can, which I feel I did quite well, and its really no easy task, believe me. Again, this can’t be appreciated without experiencing the CSL system or Sifu Orr for that matter.

Now Sifu’s dominance of timing and positional and tactical awareness also carries through to our non-bridge contact. When we are dis-engaged we are both looking for an entry. This is where the skill of feinting and baiting the opponent comes in. Every time I make a subtle shift or movement I am aware Sifu has covered that gate and has planned his own attack, the body punches and leg kicks Sifu is giving me are HARD!! which makes me more hesitant and tentative. This part of the game then becomes more mental and really this is where the highest levels of skill are explored once both participants have the correct application of physical skill – again all part of the training. For me to attack knowing I do not already have the positional or timing advantage would leave my defence far too open, which could make the situation worse for me from a tactical point of view.

You may not understand this as many WC practitioners do not heavy spar. Part of my focus at that training camp was to teach me that I can in fact stay safe providing I use correct movement and proper defensive structural methods even with heavy onslaught of strikes and even if I get hit. As that was my main focus over the weekend I guess that training idea also carried through to the chi sao / gor sao in the clip.

Yes, perhaps I could have been more aggressive in my attack or counter attack but I guess that’s the whole purpose of training and filming it in the first place – to help one analyse for the further development of one’s game.

I would love to see how some other non CSL practitioners would deal with that pressure – LOL!!

The best part of the clip for me was my huge smile at the end – I think that shows good attitude to tough training.

Sai

Thank you Sai for sharing your insight. You are a tough SOB as I know from our trade of punches! You are a credit to our family system and yourself as you have pushed outside of your comfort zone and become and very good teacher and student of the arts. You stepped up and won the Chi Sao Open heavyweight title a few years ago when you had half the skills you have now. A true warrior!

[sanjuro_ronin]

He probably means those bubble plastic head guards you see most wing chun using, and it does become chain punching conest with those for the most part lol

When I fought Daidojuku we used those "space helmets" and man I hated those things BUT they kept your face pretty.
:D

[Alan Orr]

When I fought Daidojuku we used those "space helmets" and man I hated those things BUT they kept your face pretty.
:D

I think its too late my guys and me! lol

[k gledhill]

Mr Gledhill,

You seem very quick to criticize any clips people put up. You also are very keen to explain in some detail what people are doing wrong in these clips. Criticism is good and to be expected whenever people post clips, thats a given. However, you seem to be very reluctant to show all us practitioners who are stumbling around in the dark how to do things right via the medium you are so quick to criticize : video.

So how about you put up a clip of your chi sao/ gor sao, not a clip of someone who does "what you do" but a clip of you and one of your students. I for one would be interested in seeing all of the endless advice you have in application, always good seeing how other lineages apply themselves.

I have, loads of it ....its there if you look and its there if you know what to look for.

[k gledhill]

Lat sao Jik chun is just part of wing chun is not wing chun. Wing Chun is much deeper than that.

Granted VT is multi faceted skills set of a whole diamond , but it is a HUGE part, it is essentially the guiding finger without a large book of applications to leaf through during a fight.

[k gledhill]

Using head guards has it's pluses and minuses. But just because you use them does not mean, a priori, that it's going to turn into a chain-punching contest.

Most of the time we train without gloves and head guards, even when sparring. But the risk of injury is high, so when sparring approaches full contact we use protection. Although people need to feel what it's like to hit and get hit, avoiding injury during training has to be a priority.

I have taken more 'heavy' shots when using head-guards due to blind spots from 'plastic cages' . I prefer no head guards, gloves, mouthguard. If I get hit , so be it ;)
My gym has an insurance requirement that all sparring is done with HG, Glv, groin g,etc...

Control is a skill like any other, wild wailing shots arent a skill.

I started sparring regularly with headgurds etc..from 1984 .....Sparred with BB judo regularly almost daily avoiding throws, being choked , etc...not just mma fad back then ; )

[sanjuro_ronin]

I have, loads of it ....its there if you look and its there if you know what to look for.

I went to your website, saw the clips.
I liked the "Ving Tsun training" one.
I liked that version of sparring.
Would like to see a bit more overall stuff, but that one was good.

[k gledhill]

I went to your website, saw the clips.
I liked the "Ving Tsun training" one.
I liked that version of sparring.
Would like to see a bit more overall stuff, but that one was good.

Yeah I enjoy that clip too, it gives a more angling based movement aspect with engagement on re-centering, taking advantage of over turning and refacing, like a guy slipping you as you engage them...to cut the way...or corner a person as you attack them.

[Alan Orr]

I have, loads of it ....its there if you look and its there if you know what to look for.

here is a compilation http://youtu.be/yonfA3QxR0k


This is not your fighting clips. Its P Bayer demos.

[Alan Orr]

Yeah I enjoy that clip too, it gives a more angling based movement aspect with engagement on re-centering, taking advantage of over turning and refacing, like a guy slipping you as you engage them...to cut the way...or corner a person as you attack them.

Which is the sparring clip?

The Training clip is a demo style right? Its not live training is it? The guys are moving and using angles, but they are all at the wrong time and it's all very stiff looking to me. Also the pressure is all one step and and forth demo style - that's not live training. Bayer's stuff is better but it's also all demo stuff and the timing is easy to play when it's done like that. Would be good to see with alive pressure.

[k gledhill]

Which is the sparring clip?

The Training clip is a demo style right? Its not live training is it? The guys are moving and using angles, but they are all at the wrong time and it's all very stiff looking to me. Also the pressure is all one step and and forth demo style - that's not live training. Bayer's stuff is better but it's also all demo stuff and the timing is easy to play when it's done like that. Would be good to see with alive pressure.

I like the clip.

[guy b.]

What you are highlighting is you don't agree with the other comments. People can make their own views. You don't have to sit on the fence. Not all things are objective if you feel you can see an answer. That's people's opinions. On the whole I always have excellent feedback. Only a few of the same people have the same few comments. Which is all fine, but then telling others they must have the same view is a different thing altogether. I am not sure of the point in that.

I really don't see how you get this from what I wrote.

[guy b.]

Although I wasn’t named (don’t feel bad I know you meant me as well) I’ll answer
My main criitism is that we see lots of chi say clips, almost no sparing clips and certainly even less fighting clips from the schools that post these clips, they seem to think chi sau is the big training secret, I have always stated that structure falls apart under pressure... well alan does pressure test his guys, he has plenty of clips of them sparring and fighting MMA and thai

And because its only part of his training, and he is trying to get away from all the bull and actually posts fighting and hard sparring. I don’t mind this clip, personally id rather do light clinch work than this, but im not a wing chun guy
If Kevin posted clips of just chi sau, and kept talking about how scientific wing chun fighting was i wouldn’t be impressed, if he also posted clips of his guys fighting full contact I might be and I wouldn’t rag on him, people posting endless chi sau clips without hard sparring and fighting clips is for me pointless as we can’t see the end result
As I say the clip for me isn’t anything special but alans not pretending it is, its just part of his training, but I appreciate there is pressure being applied and more importantly we can see by alans sparring and fighting clips of his students the outcome for him this sort of training brings

I didn't include you because you have no understanding of wing chun and your criticisms are therefore fairly crude and generally baseless.

[guy b.]

Context, that's why.
Alan HAS showed clips of them fighting, MANY clips.
If he now chooses to show a more complaint drill clip, the context will dictate the response.
If all Alan puts up were clips like that, He WOULD get asked "where's the beef?"
As for "much better clips", well...that is subjective of course.
As for "a;; wing chun people" doing chi sao and sparring.
I'll give you that one, yes all WC people do chi sao and sparring ( of some sort).

Newsflash: most people don't make clips of their training to meet your personal standards of acceptability.

Since chi sau is the main training drill of wing chun it naturally features in a lot of training clips on the internet.

I don't recall seeing clips of you, wayfaring, frost, or Alan Orr for that matter engaging in fighting. Should I therefore act like the policeman of the internet until you provide me with such clips?

[guy b.]

I don't know, man, I'm just giving my impression. Post up "better clips of chi/gor sau" and I'll give you my impression of those too. Post up why you think they are better too.

In general I like drills and sparring that train people for motions that happen in real fighting. Thus the motions would be how someone would look in real fighting. When I see clips that show a bunch of pitty pat slapping like motions that someone couldn't use to free themselves from a wet paper bag, then I usually don't like it.

Yes I would agree on that 100% I see so many wing chun demo's that are just so far away from the real thing.

Chi sau is not supposed to be used in real fighting- attempting to do so would be ridiculous.

There are many clips of chi/gor sau that are objectively better than Alan Orr's clip posted here. We can judge this because we know the purpose of chi sau and can make an objective assessment of how well that purpose is being fulfilled in any clip.

[Frost]

I didn't include you because you have no understanding of wing chun and your criticisms are therefore fairly crude and generally baseless.

of course not, have fun playing tag with your mates :)

[Frost]

Newsflash: most people don't make clips of their training to meet your personal standards of acceptability.

Since chi sau is the main training drill of wing chun it naturally features in a lot of training clips on the internet.

I don't recall seeing clips of you, wayfaring, frost, or Alan Orr for that matter engaging in fighting. Should I therefore act like the policeman of the internet until you provide me with such clips?

you can ive posted clips of myself in grappling comps (hey i grapple) and clips of my school in MMA comps and MMA training, im in those clips too

your turn? care to share you or your school in action?

[guy b.]

It's all down to opinion too which is better or not. That's why some will like what I do and other will like other methods. Of course you have made clear your dislike to me in other posts so it would be no surprise that you would like this clip.

consensus is not reality

[guy b.]

of course not, have fun playing tag with your mates :)

You obviously don't know what chi sau is for since you are appreciative of heavier contact in chi sau. How can you criticise something you don't understand?

[guy b.]

you can ive posted clips of myself in grappling comps (hey i grapple) and clips of my school in MMA comps and MMA training, im in those clips too

your turn? care to share you or your school in action?

If you want my judgement of your skills then feel free to ask for it

[Frost]

You obviously don't know what chi sau is for since you are appreciative of heavier contact in chi sau. How can you criticise something you don't understand?

my understanding is different from yours no doubt, wing chun is not my main TCMA, but it is what my sifu taught first and he still teaches us on occasion

nope i advocate heavier pressure in chi sau, and say that without also doing heavy sparring (which most cant post clips of) what you do is pretty much useless be it chi sau, sticky hands or anything else of the ilk

[Frost]

If you want my judgement of your skills then feel free to ask for it

its ok my skills have been judged by UFC level fighters and BJJ world champs, simply stating i have posted a clip or two over the years so do you want to as well?

[guy b.]

its ok my skills have been judged by UFC level fighters and BJJ world champs, simply stating i have posted a clip or two over the years so do you want to as well?

You aren't following the conversation. Try reading again

[Frost]

You aren't following the conversation. Try reading again

you asked if i wanted your judgement of my skills correct???

[Wayfaring]

There are many clips of chi/gor sau that are objectively better than Alan Orr's clip posted here. We can judge this because we know the purpose of chi sau and can make an objective assessment of how well that purpose is being fulfilled in any clip.

So is it too unreasonable to ask you to post just one example of what you're talking about here?

[guy b.]

I don't see why that would be relevant to the point I'm making. I think it would also be a bit rude to post other clips on Alan's chi sau thread

[guy b.]

you asked if i wanted your judgement of my skills correct???

Go back a few posts and read again

[Phil Redmond]

of course not, have fun playing tag with your mates :)

Frost, I hear you. I try to be diplomatic but it's hard when you're dealing with people who do/see nice co-operative demos and drills (and I'm guilty of that too), but have NEVER pressure tested their art against some trained fighter from another style who wants to wreck you.

[Frost]

Go back a few posts and read again
this one


If you want my judgement of your skills then feel free to ask for it

or another post, you wing chun guys are so cryptic :)

for the record i don't really need your judgement or value it, i simply pointed out that i had posted clips of myself on this forum. And how else are you going to judge skills unless you see them in action for real?

But what that has to do with anything i dont know alan has posted clips of his chi sau and his fighting method in action, therefore people can see what he is trying to achieve, apart from phil and i believe a couple of others no one else has done this...this is why in your view he gets a different ride than say Kevin,,,not that i suspect alan cares that much, he is too busy training fighters lol

[Frost]

Frost, I hear you. I try to be diplomatic but it's hard when you're dealing with people who do/see nice co-operative demos and drills (and I'm guilty of that too), but have NEVER pressure tested their art against some trained fighter from another style who wants to wreck you.

Phil we have spoken before and you know i have respect for you and the guys you train, you also know i have great respect for how you conduct yourself on this forum

[Phil Redmond]

We need to have WC full contact events so we can filter out the none fighters and theorists who think demos are fighting. The winners could fight against other "SKILLED" martial artists. Wing Chun will get a lot better rep in the MA world at large if that happens. My bet is that the non fighters will continue trashing talking each other and the fighters will unite.

[Alan Orr]

I don't see why that would be relevant to the point I'm making. I think it would also be a bit rude to post other clips on Alan's chi sau thread

I wouldn't think it rude at all. Please post the clips. I would be interested to see what you think is a good standard. I'm not saying I am the best or better that anyone. I post my clips to show our normal training.

[Alan Orr]

We need to have WC full contact events so we can filter out the none fighters and theorists who think demos are fighting. The winners could fight against other "SKILLED" martial artists. Wing Chun will get a lot better rep in the MA world at large if that happens. My bet is that the non fighters will continue trashing talking each other and the fighters will unite.

Very true Phil.

I did run an event a few years ago. Full contact Strikes below the neck and touch contact to the head in Chi Sao. My guys won 8 golds and 1 silver. Out of the 9.

This year I was looking to run it again, but we had no takers.

I will be setting up an event for every 3-4 months to try to get more people interested. I would also be happy to enter as well.

[WC1277]

So is it too unreasonable to ask you to post just one example of what you're talking about here?

Skip to about a minute or so in to shave some time off the "warm up phase"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2chOzs-2Xg

Not perfect but a better example of proper use of the "drill" IMO. Keep in mind there's many different things one can focus on in this format(drill) as well. What baffles me about Mr. Orr's "drill" is the tag like mentality and obvious lifting of the elbow countless amount of times. It's just not possible to switch power off the same way when doing that and without a doubt involves muscle. Why, you ask? Because it's no longer connected to the body. It's like throwing a baseball, you can try to stop your motion, but it won't be clean. His attacks are too committed. I'd like to see him with someone equally skilled but stronger than him. I've said this before but I'll say it again.....chi sau is a drill to teach how to mitigate force, not overpower force, otherwise it becomes purely technique..... No offense Alan, just my opinion...

[Alan Orr]

Skip to about a minute or so in to shave some time off the "warm up phase"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2chOzs-2Xg

Not perfect but a better example of proper use of the "drill" IMO. Keep in mind there's many different things one can focus on in this format(drill) as well. What baffles me about Mr. Orr's "drill" is the tag like mentality and obvious lifting of the elbow countless amount of times. It's just not possible to switch power off the same way when doing that and without a doubt involves muscle. Why, you ask? Because it's no longer connected to the body. It's like throwing a baseball, you can try to stop your motion, but it won't be clean. His attacks are too committed. I'd like to see him with someone equally skilled but stronger than him. I've said this before but I'll say it again.....chi sau is a drill to teach how to mitigate force, not overpower force, otherwise it becomes purely technique..... No offense Alan, just my opinion...


What you are saying is just not the case. The strikes are not a 'tag' strike. They have power it's just controlled power. My opponent is not a weak guy lol

You comments make no sense to me... Chi Sao is a drill but it can be a dead drill or an alive drill. The clip you have shown is a demo again it's not alive. Also from watching it I can see the guys do not spar much as with many of they types of clips its all one step and take turns.

No offense taken and I hope none given. Your opinion is just that. But all I will say is my clips may be hard for you to read if you have never had experience of our system and the type of pressure given. My opponent Sai has posted his comments on the experience. As he was the one in the clip I am sure his comments would be the more valid.

[WC1277]

What you are saying is just not the case. The strikes are not a 'tag' strike. They have power it's just controlled power. My opponent is not a weak guy lol

You comments make no sense to me... Chi Sao is a drill but it can be a dead drill or an alive drill. The clip you have show is a demo again it's not alive. Also from watching it I can see the guys do not spar much as with many of they types of clips its all one step and take turns.

No offense taken and I hope none given. Your opinion is just that. But all I will say is my clips may be hard for you to read if you have never had experience of our system and the type of pressure given. My opponent Sai has posted his comments on the experience. As he was the one in the clip I am sure his comments would be the more valid.

How is it a demo?

[Alan Orr]

How is it a demo?

Its just rolling and playing. No power in the strikes. Applications that a are unanswered as the opponent is either a low level of not trying as its just play. Of course that can be as the guy attack is much better, but it all goes back and forth. No body power, turning is off around the center which shows a lack of understanding of how to deal with real pressure. So either its not very good or they are just playing at demo level.

[nasmedicine]

In Okinawa they have a saying:
100 styles, 100 sanchin.

I think it is time for WC to adapt that saying for chi sao:
100 styles, 100 chi sao's
Because it is very clear that each system, each style, indeed, each lineage, has their OWN idea of Chi sao.

IMHO,I see nothing wrong with that. Show evolution and people actually thinking and individualizing the system which is how it's suppose to be IMO. So many "famous" Sifu's have done that already, and their students should do the same. Eventually, if done correctly it wont even be WC it will be something else, which is fine as long as it's for the better and it gets the job done. Whether change is good is relative to the individual.


-Cheers

[nasmedicine]

I find it funny that nobody is responding to Alan's student (Sai) post explaining what is actually going on in the clip. Maybe it's because it pretty much sums up what's actually going on in the clip and that no matter how much you want to write on and on about how the clip is this...and that...In reality unless you have actually touched hands with Alan you'll never actually know with 100% certainty what your saying is accurate, that is of course unless one is so full of themselves that they think they can do better. Honestly,Alan and anyone who films themselves training or demonstrating, I don't know why you bother responding to half the comments because I know that nothing anybody says is going to change how you train and what you do. Just my two cents.

[Alan Orr]

I find it funny that nobody is responding to Alan's student (Sai) post explaining what is actually going on in the clip. Maybe it's because it pretty much sums up what's actually going on in the clip and that no matter how much you want to write on and on about how the clip is this...and that...In reality unless you have actually touched hands with Alan you'll never actually know with 100% certainty what your saying is accurate, that is of course unless one is so full of themselves they they think they can do better. Honestly,Alan and anyone who films themselves training or demonstrating, I don't know why you bother responding to half the comments because I know that nothing anybody says is going to change how you train and what you do. Just my two cents.

Thank you, yes your quite right. I think on forums people tend to want to have a voice. I not interested really, the only reason I answer is that a few people keep trying too guess or tell me what I am doing when they have no idea. Other than that if people like it then great, if they have questions I will answer, if they say they don't like it, then that's fine too. But please don't tell me what I doing or not doing unless your in the clip or have come and trained with me, as they are so wrong. Funny thing is the guys that can see it correctly don't say much as nothing needs to be said. It's the guys with no clue that have all the opinions!

Thank you for your post. I'm off to bed as I have 2 hours training one of my Pro MMA fighters tomorrow. Fight in 5 weeks, so hard sparring and hard pad work then conditioning. Will be fun.

[WC1277]

Its just rolling and playing. No power in the strikes. Applications that a are unanswered as the opponent is either a low level of not trying as its just play. Of course that can be as the guy attack is much better, but it all goes back and forth. No body power, turning is off around the center which shows a lack of understanding of how to deal with real pressure. So either its not very good or they are just playing at demo level.

Umm.....no. I've flowed with both these guys and it's no demo buddy. This is the jist of what it looks like when truly redirecting force(the guy in black). You can come in as hard as you want, it won't make a difference. And sorry, turning is not "off around the center". You misunderstand the difference between the blocking line and attack line. I didn't expect you to agree with me but I'm pretty sure you've never experienced good Fong wing chun chi sao by your assessment. That's ok though, it's just a forum. I could care less in real life....

[nasmedicine]

Funny thing is the guys that can see it correctly don't say much as nothing needs to be said. It's the guys with no clue that have all the opinions!

Exactly. If you already know you don't need to ask and if you need to ask then you obviously don't know...

[GlennR]

Thank you, yes your quite right. I think on forums people tend to want to have a voice. I not interested really, the only reason I answer is that a few people keep trying too guess or tell me what I am doing when they have no idea. Other than that if people like it then great, if they have questions I will answer, if they say they don't like it, then that's fine too. But please don't tell me what I doing or not doing unless your in the clip or have come and trained with me, as they are so wrong. Funny thing is the guys that can see it correctly don't say much as nothing needs to be said. It's the guys with no clue that have all the opinions!

Ahhhh, so if someone has an opinion they don't have a clue???
Glad to see you've devised a style that is perfect and beyond critique.

Honestly Alan, if you dont want opinions on your clips dont put them up

[Wayfaring]

Umm.....no. I've flowed with both these guys and it's no demo buddy. This is the jist of what it looks like when truly redirecting force(the guy in black).

So you are saying that what is in that clip represents what Fong's wing chun looks like in a fight? Just clarifying.


You can come in as hard as you want, it won't make a difference.

Any clips of this? Alan showed two clips - the one was with more pressure striking and the second was more compliant chi sau like in flow training. The clip you posted was more like the second one of Alan's as far as the pace of the training.

I don't want to make a summary judgement of "good Fong wing chun chi sau" without seeing it in more of a "gor sau" setting where I can see some hands being thrown that have the potential power to end a fight, or at least that level of striking and pressure. To me the clip you posted doesn't seem to show that, it is more at the "flow" level. So without further info I have no idea whether the two in the clip spar harder, fight, etc.

I mean it's not a big deal if people want to do more compliant or "flow" chi sau, it's just we've been talking a lot recently about the difference between chi sau and fighting so if people blur the lines there you begin to wonder. And the "flow" chi sau is supposed to increase skill in a realistic pressure environment so that's always something good to see evidence of.

The common answer to this is "no there is no video of fight pressure, as that is in a self-defense setting". The question to ask then is if MMA fighters can simulate that kind of pressure, train for it, and experience it in the cage, is that a better way to train than a compliant flow drill?

[WC1277]

So you are saying that what is in that clip represents what Fong's wing chun looks like in a fight? Just clarifying.

Any clips of this? Alan showed two clips - the one was with more pressure striking and the second was more compliant chi sau like in flow training. The clip you posted was more like the second one of Alan's as far as the pace of the training.

I don't want to make a summary judgement of "good Fong wing chun chi sau" without seeing it in more of a "gor sau" setting where I can see some hands being thrown that have the potential power to end a fight, or at least that level of striking and pressure. To me the clip you posted doesn't seem to show that, it is more at the "flow" level. So without further info I have no idea whether the two in the clip spar harder, fight, etc.

I mean it's not a big deal if people want to do more compliant or "flow" chi sau, it's just we've been talking a lot recently about the difference between chi sau and fighting so if people blur the lines there you begin to wonder. And the "flow" chi sau is supposed to increase skill in a realistic pressure environment so that's always something good to see evidence of.

The common answer to this is "no there is no video of fight pressure, as that is in a self-defense setting". The question to ask then is if MMA fighters can simulate that kind of pressure, train for it, and experience it in the cage, is that a better way to train than a compliant flow drill?

No, not fighting. If doing gor sau, yes, you could come in as hard as you want and it will look the same. I'm not even trying to be subjective here either, I'm serious, the guys from the system who are proficient really can apply this skill level regardless of force.

[WC1277]

As far as fighting goes, I've shared many posts on my stance of that subject. Chi Sao/gor sau is not fighting.

[Frost]

No, not fighting. If doing gor sau, yes, you could come in as hard as you want and it will look the same. I'm not even trying to be subjective here either, I'm serious, the guys from the system who are proficient really can apply this skill level regardless of force.

So as Wayfaring said any actual clips of these guys or and on Fongs lineage doing this with real force and real intent so we can see what you mean?

[guy b.]

this one



or another post, you wing chun guys are so cryptic :)

for the record i don't really need your judgement or value it, i simply pointed out that i had posted clips of myself on this forum. And how else are you going to judge skills unless you see them in action for real?

read from this rhetorical question onwards:


I don't recall seeing clips of you, wayfaring, frost, or Alan Orr for that matter engaging in fighting. Should I therefore act like the policeman of the internet until you provide me with such clips?

[guy b.]

I don't see why that would be relevant to the point I'm making. I think it would also be a bit rude to post other clips on Alan's chi sau thread

I wouldn't think it rude at all. Please post the clips. I would be interested to see what you think is a good standard. I'm not saying I am the best or better that anyone. I post my clips to show our normal training.

I am happy to post better clips of chi/gor sau as long as you endeavour not to conflate the question of chi/gor sau proficiency and the total usefulness of wing chun as a training methodology. Your emphasis on hard contact in chi sau is worrying in this respect since it contradicts the general aim of the drill. You don't appear to be approaching it as wing chun when it suits you not to. This does not help to improve skill in the wing chun method. It is like people who insist on awarding rank in bjj for no gi submission wrestling when bjj is a defined ground grappling method using the gi.

The question of whether the wing chun method is valid and the question of proficiency within that method are different and unconnected.

[guy b.]

Here are a few examples of objectively better chi/gor sau than the previously posted clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guWUo8qS53U&list=FLGgLYCMyEo5C1BYd4A52eHg&feature=mh_lolz

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08-fHZDzr1Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzhD5sP78cc&feature=BFa&list=FLGgLYCMyEo5C1BYd4A52eHg

[guy b.]

Ahhhh, so if someone has an opinion they don't have a clue???
Glad to see you've devised a style that is perfect and beyond critique.

Honestly Alan, if you dont want opinions on your clips dont put them up

I sort of wish Robert Chu would participate in these discussions.

[Frost]

read from this rhetorical question onwards:

and i simply pointed out you didn't need to, so it was really a straw man argument as we can post clips of various competitions that we have either been in, or clubs we have trained at have been in

and we are simply asking for clips showing those skills you say your chi sau builds in actual hard sparring, the fact you think posting some light slap vest and think its the same as hard sparring is telling

the fact you cant see why we treat Alan's chi sau clips differently from say kevins, when he has posted plenty of clips of his guys in full contact so we can see those attributes he believes his chi sau builds in action and when all kevin can do is post clips of PB doing non contact chi sau type drills is also telling

[guy b.]

and i simply pointed out you didn't need to, so it was really a straw man argument as we can post clips of various competitions that we have either been in, or clubs we have trained at have been in

Difficult to know what to say in reply to this...I merely ask you reset your assumptions and read again. You aren't comprehending very well (or at all)

[guy b.]

If you want my judgement of your skills then feel free to ask for it

its ok my skills have been judged by UFC level fighters and BJJ world champs, simply stating i have posted a clip or two over the years so do you want to as well?

The irony drips heavily from this post. Read again from the rhetorical question about being a self appointed internet policeman

[Alan Orr]

Ahhhh, so if someone has an opinion they don't have a clue???
Glad to see you've devised a style that is perfect and beyond critique.

Honestly Alan, if you dont want opinions on your clips dont put them up


I was not saying that. It just seems the guys with no idea of fighting are the ones with the most to say.

[Alan Orr]

Here are a few examples of objectively better chi/gor sau than the previously posted clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guWUo8qS53U&list=FLGgLYCMyEo5C1BYd4A52eHg&feature=mh_lolz

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08-fHZDzr1Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzhD5sP78cc&feature=BFa&list=FLGgLYCMyEo5C1BYd4A52eHg

Right, this helps me see what you think is good wing chun. Looks like we will never agree then. Not bad clips, but not what I would choose. We look for different things in wing chun.

[Alan Orr]

and i simply pointed out you didn't need to, so it was really a straw man argument as we can post clips of various competitions that we have either been in, or clubs we have trained at have been in

and we are simply asking for clips showing those skills you say your chi sau builds in actual hard sparring, the fact you think posting some light slap vest and think its the same as hard sparring is telling

the fact you cant see why we treat Alan's chi sau clips differently from say kevins, when he has posted plenty of clips of his guys in full contact so we can see those attributes he believes his chi sau builds in action and when all kevin can do is post clips of PB doing non contact chi sau type drills is also telling

Yes this is why some will like and some will hate what I do. Some seem to think demo style training and just having your elbow in is wing chun. Its far from that.

For me wing chun is a fighting system and the progression must be shown.

Forms with structure lead to Chi Sao with power and control, which lead to fighting skills. If the Chi Sao is hand play with no leg power and bad posture then it will not add to fighting skills.

[Alan Orr]

Umm.....no. I've flowed with both these guys and it's no demo buddy. This is the jist of what it looks like when truly redirecting force(the guy in black). You can come in as hard as you want, it won't make a difference. And sorry, turning is not "off around the center". You misunderstand the difference between the blocking line and attack line. I didn't expect you to agree with me but I'm pretty sure you've never experienced good Fong wing chun chi sao by your assessment. That's ok though, it's just a forum. I could care less in real life....

One of my students did Fong style for 8 years before training with me. I know the style. I'm not sayingh anything about the style, just what I can see on the clip.

I showed it to my Pro fighters this morning and ask - demo or live training. They just laughed. I train live training. This sort of demo style is okay for learning, but its not a bridge to fighting skills.

[Alan Orr]

So you are saying that what is in that clip represents what Fong's wing chun looks like in a fight? Just clarifying.

Any clips of this? Alan showed two clips - the one was with more pressure striking and the second was more compliant chi sau like in flow training. The clip you posted was more like the second one of Alan's as far as the pace of the training.

I don't want to make a summary judgement of "good Fong wing chun chi sau" without seeing it in more of a "gor sau" setting where I can see some hands being thrown that have the potential power to end a fight, or at least that level of striking and pressure. To me the clip you posted doesn't seem to show that, it is more at the "flow" level. So without further info I have no idea whether the two in the clip spar harder, fight, etc.

I mean it's not a big deal if people want to do more compliant or "flow" chi sau, it's just we've been talking a lot recently about the difference between chi sau and fighting so if people blur the lines there you begin to wonder. And the "flow" chi sau is supposed to increase skill in a realistic pressure environment so that's always something good to see evidence of.

The common answer to this is "no there is no video of fight pressure, as that is in a self-defense setting". The question to ask then is if MMA fighters can simulate that kind of pressure, train for it, and experience it in the cage, is that a better way to train than a compliant flow drill?

Good points

[Alan Orr]

I am happy to post better clips of chi/gor sau as long as you endeavour not to conflate the question of chi/gor sau proficiency and the total usefulness of wing chun as a training methodology. Your emphasis on hard contact in chi sau is worrying in this respect since it contradicts the general aim of the drill. You don't appear to be approaching it as wing chun when it suits you not to. This does not help to improve skill in the wing chun method. It is like people who insist on awarding rank in bjj for no gi submission wrestling when bjj is a defined ground grappling method using the gi.

The question of whether the wing chun method is valid and the question of proficiency within that method are different and unconnected.


What I have shown in the my original clip is just one way to train. The aim of the drill is to bridge your skills to real pressure. So in order to do that you train in many ways. One way is to use good control and power in movement. I was not hitting hard just with intention and control. Wing Chun training must have gears of pressure. I lot of what is often shown does not hold up and real pressure.

[guy b.]

What I have shown in the my original clip is just one way to train. The aim of the drill is to bridge your skills to real pressure. So in order to do that you train in many ways. One way is to use good control and power in movement. I was not hitting hard just with intention and control. Wing Chun training must have gears of pressure. I lot of what is often shown does not hold up and real pressure.

All wing chun uses the methodology you describe above. Unfortunately the clip you posted shows poor posture/structure, little to no movement (you even look double weighted at times), and a lack of control coupled with a willingness to step outside of wing chun when needing to "step up a gear", rather than working within the system to increase skill. Compared to clips of your students fighting it is hard to see how this chi sau bares any relation to what the couple of decent ones do in the ring.

[Alan Orr]

All wing chun uses the methodology you describe above. Unfortunately the clip you posted shows poor posture/structure, little to no movement (you even look double weighted at times), and a lack of control coupled with a willingness to step outside of wing chun when needing to "step up a gear", rather than working within the system to increase skill. Compared to clips of your students fighting it is hard to see how this chi sau bares any relation to what the couple of decent ones do in the ring.


Its very clear with the more you talk that you have a very weak understanding. Your limited mind set is only thing that is clear.

poor posture / structure that's too funny. You post a' bow backed' clip with no leg power and then you talk about posture. Double weighted.. lol I have heard this one a before from guys that have no understanding of rooting linking and delinking.

Oh we are back to my guys can fight but I can't lol. Yes Guy you tried this one before and my fighters answered your BS. Your true colour is a personal issue towards me, but as always it's hidden in jumping on my posts. No problem as many more clips to come, so hate away.

[guy b.]

Its very clear with the more you talk that you have a very weak understanding. Your limited mind set is only thing that is clear.

poor posture / structure that's too funny. You post a' bow backed' clip with no leg power and then you talk about posture. Double weighted.. lol I have heard this one a before from guys that have no understanding of rooting linking and delinking.

Oh we are back to my guys can fight but I can't lol. Yes Guy you tried this one before and my fighters answered your BS. Your true colour is a personal issue towards me, but as always it's hidden in jumping on my posts. No problem as many more clips to come, so hate away.

Alan, attacking the man rather than the argument is futile.

The clips I posted show leg power when it matters (i.e. when force is applied they link). Likewise there is no detrimental curve of the upper back when power is expressed.

In contrast your clip shows leaning into the opponent when you express power (i.e. you are off balance), no movement (you are basically static throughout, footwork you do show is basic, no use of angling and deflection, no chasing centre, no Lat Sau Jik Chung), poor posture (lower back lordosis, reaching, off balance/double weightedness) and you break the rules of wing chun constantly making your chi sau a strange competitive hit/grapple rather than a useful training drill within the stated objectives of wing chun.

Nobody can look objectively at your clip and compare it favourably to the clips I posted bearing in mind the wing chun kuen kit. If you wish to judge to some other standard then be my guest but I thought we were talking about wing chun.

[WC1277]

You're hopeless big guy. Just like last time you came on this forum and posted all your close minded comments. The main argument is once again context. You call it chi sao/gor sau and I and many others call it sparring. I posted the clip I did because someone asked objectively speaking, what is a better representation of the "drill" of chi sao/gor sau. You're once again trying to fit a square peg in a circular hole. Just call it what it is and there wouldn't be so much discourse. I guess, using your logic, I could bring an Uzi to a sharp shooter contest and still claim I'm sharp shooting. It's unbelievable really. Just call your Uzi "aliveness" and circumvent all the rules!

As far as your guy goes. I'm assuming he probably isn't from the states and probably never really became that proficient to switch to something like this. To each his own I suppose....

[Robinhood]

You can only practice what you know and think works, no use arguing about it.



Cheers

[guy b.]

I'm not saying I am the best or better that anyone. I post my clips to show our normal training.


Funny thing is the guys that can see it correctly don't say much as nothing needs to be said. It's the guys with no clue that have all the opinions!

How do you square these two comments?

[Robinhood]

You can't, that's what teachers are for, not over internet or from videos.

Most people practice what they know and like. Its like food preference.


Cheers

[Alan Orr]

Alan, attacking the man rather than the argument is futile.

The clips I posted show leg power when it matters (i.e. when force is applied they link). Likewise there is no detrimental curve of the upper back when power is expressed.

In contrast your clip shows leaning into the opponent when you express power (i.e. you are off balance), no movement (you are basically static throughout, footwork you do show is basic, no use of angling and deflection, no chasing centre, no Lat Sau Jik Chung), poor posture (lower back lordosis, reaching, off balance/double weightedness) and you break the rules of wing chun constantly making your chi sau a strange competitive hit/grapple rather than a useful training drill within the stated objectives of wing chun.

Nobody can look objectively at your clip and compare it favourably to the clips I posted bearing in mind the wing chun kuen kit. If you wish to judge to some other standard then be my guest but I thought we were talking about wing chun.


Very funny

[Alan Orr]

How do you square these two comments?

Why do I need too?

I of course have opinions. For over 20 years I have trained with many styles and travel and met lots of different wing chun teachers. I also train with excellent teachers and have friends from different styles of wing chun. Plus many of my students came from other styles like WSL, Fong, R Williams, and many more. So I have seen the standards held by other instructors many times. I also know what works under real pressure. I have said I'm not interested in your opinion as I can see what you think wing chun is about and I do not agree, no big deal. Just boring to have listen to your repeating of incorrect ideas of what I am doing.

[Alan Orr]

You can't, that's what teachers are for, not over internet or from videos.

Most people practice what they know and like. Its like food preference.


Cheers

Very true!

[Alan Orr]

You're hopeless big guy. Just like last time you came on this forum and posted all your close minded comments. The main argument is once again context. You call it chi sao/gor sau and I and many others call it sparring. I posted the clip I did because someone asked objectively speaking, what is a better representation of the "drill" of chi sao/gor sau. You're once again trying to fit a square peg in a circular hole. Just call it what it is and there wouldn't be so much discourse. I guess, using your logic, I could bring an Uzi to a sharp shooter contest and still claim I'm sharp shooting. It's unbelievable really. Just call your Uzi "aliveness" and circumvent all the rules!

As far as your guy goes. I'm assuming he probably isn't from the states and probably never really became that proficient to switch to something like this. To each his own I suppose....


No because I understand my system and its been tested to a high level in many areas. The clip was Chi Sao to Gor Sao in the Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun System. Not any other style or method. Like it or not that's what it is. Sparring is different. Gor Sao cross over into sparring as it's the next bridge.

[WC1277]

No because I understand my system and its been tested to a high level in many areas. The clip was Chi Sao to Gor Sao in the Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun System. Not any other style or method. Like it or not that's what it is. Sparring is different. Gor Sao cross over into sparring as it's the next bridge.

Fair enough, but I'd bet my two cents that even Hawkins Cheung wouldn't consider that the "DRILL" of chi sao/gor sau. Once again, I'm not trying to insult or anything of the sort. It would be nice, however, to see you flow with a guy who doesn't chase or clam up within this format if possible. I'll give you this much, you controlled him to a degree but I'd say the majority was him "covering" which kind of negates the purpose of this "DRILL" IMO. It's easy to attack a guy who's just shooting his hands up to protect his face....

[guy b.]

I have said I'm not interested in your opinion as I can see what you think wing chun is about and I do not agree, no big deal. Just boring to have listen to your repeating of incorrect ideas of what I am doing.

Why would you post your clips on the internet if you are not interested in the opinions of other people? Many teachers are not interested in what people think of them but by your actions (and reactions to criticism) you are not one of them.

As for incorrect ideas, do you honestly deny that you are forward weighted in this clip, that you even lean forward at times, that you don't move much, that you show a significant curve in your lower spine, and that you don't Lat Sau Jik Chung?

Wing chun isn't a matter of opinion, it is actually a fairly tightly defined and easy to understand system.

[Alan Orr]

Fair enough, but I'd bet my two cents that even Hawkins Cheung wouldn't consider that the "DRILL" of chi sao/gor sau. Once again, I'm not trying to insult or anything of the sort. It would be nice, however, to see you flow with a guy who doesn't chase or clam up within this format if possible. I'll give you this much, you controlled him to a degree but I'd say the majority was him "covering" which kind of negates the purpose of this "DRILL" IMO. It's easy to attack a guy who's just shooting his hands up to protect his face....


That's cool. As I keep saying this was a clip of a pressure test of the way I teach Chi Sao to Gor Sao.


This is a teaching pace

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SJrVX2Nr68

demo -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKkp19KV9xg

Teaching clip

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPOlQyO6jkA

[Alan Orr]

Why would you post your clips on the internet if you are not interested in the opinions of other people? Many teachers are not interested in what people think of them but by your actions (and reactions to criticism) you are not one of them.

As for incorrect ideas, do you honestly deny that you are forward weighted in this clip, that you even lean forward at times, that you don't move much, that you show a significant curve in your lower spine, and that you don't Lat Sau Jik Chung?

Wing chun isn't a matter of opinion, it is actually a fairly tightly defined and easy to understand system.


I post them to show a different opinion of wing chun as many people are interested. I'm not interested in pointless comments about what you 'think' you can see and what you 'think' you know. If people have questions I am more than happy to chat.


You have no understanding of what I am doing, that is very clear by your comments. My weight and balance change all the time depending on what is needed to control my opponents structure and balance. If you listened to Sai he did post what he was feeling. When I issue force its via my legs and spine. Its not locked. I am not leaning I am pressing weight into my opponents stucture - if I was off balance then he would not be under pressure. Lat Sau Jik Chung is one of many ideas in Wing Chun and can be used in many ways. I am using this, maybe a in a way you don't understand. In terms of movement - I move my opponent into the position I want, I don't try to move around him as much as that does not work well with real pressure if the opponent has skill.

You are trained in WSL method right? is that you background?

[WC1277]

That's cool. As I keep saying this was a clip of a pressure test of the way I teach Chi Sao to Gor Sao.


This is a teaching pace

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SJrVX2Nr68

demo -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKkp19KV9xg

Teaching clip

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPOlQyO6jkA

I still don't understand why your guys aren't coming in on you upon loss of contact. In all three of these videos including the first video you posted in this thread, it appears as if they're literally just standing still when they could be coming in on you and pressuring you back. More importantly, by coming in on you, they'll actually improve their structure against you by the line of force changing of what you're trying to manipulate. For instance, if you're pulling on my arm, by myself not collapsing but allowing you to pull my whole body weight into the direction you pull, it will change the apex of force making you not only have to pull 200 lbs of body but it will freeze you for a moment forcing you to switch. It seems as if they're just pulling back against the direction of your pull with their arms instead of only pulling back to neutralize and lock the body together forcing you to move the whole body. Why are they bending at their waists when collapsing? Why isn't the whole body moving when being yanked on or pushed? Why are their arms coming up so high to protect their faces that there is no triangle to absorb/redirect force? If the upper arm is parallel to the ground and the force isn't coming from above, it has no structure, not even my personal opinion, fact.

I don't know man, I guess it's your style of Wing Chun, so whatever....

[guy b.]

I post them to show a different opinion of wing chun as many people are interested. I'm not interested in pointless comments about what you 'think' you can see and what you 'think' you know. If people have questions I am more than happy to chat.


You have no understanding of what I am doing, that is very clear by your comments. My weight and balance change all the time depending on what is needed to control my opponents structure and balance. If you listened to Sai he did post what he was feeling. When I issue force its via my legs and spine. Its not locked. I am not leaning I am pressing weight into my opponents stucture - if I was off balance then he would not be under pressure. Lat Sau Jik Chung is one of many ideas in Wing Chun and can be used in many ways. I am using this, maybe a in a way you don't understand. In terms of movement - I move my opponent into the position I want, I don't try to move around him as much as that does not work well with real pressure if the opponent has skill.

You are trained in WSL method right? is that you background?

Everyone issues force via legs and spine. How could it be otherwise (these are the parts of the body any force vector must travel through from the floor)?

Leaning or "pressing weight forwards" exposes you to being pulled off balance, forwards. This applies whether you believe you can uncouple the forward force before your opponent can capitalise on it, or not. It is more risky than remaining centred. It is nonsense to say that unbalanced pressing does not apply pressure. All pressing and leaning applies pressure; that is the nature of pressing.

Your comments on the futility of movement in a fight are frankly very strange. Relying on moving your opponent only rather than using angling and movement yourself while also moving your opponent is obviously a very limited strategy and impractical for real fighting. Your fighters move in the ring like anyone else and so I think you are just saying this for the sake of disagreement.

Lat Sau Jik Chung is also a core method of wing chun and you are not applying it here, however it is interpreted, because you consistently leave unoccupied time and space during the exchange.

[k gledhill]

I have trained a CSL student who visited for a while in NY & New Jersey. :) good to exchange

[guy b.]

I have trained a CSL student who visited for a while in NY & New Jersey. :) good to exchange

Did you find yourself being moved and controlled by a largely static opponent using a mysterious force you couldn't understand and that he was reluctant to explain, all the while looking like he was just leaning on you and chasing hands?

[k gledhill]

did you find yourself being moved and controlled by a largely static opponent using a mysterious force you couldn't understand and that he was reluctant to explain, all the while looking like he was just leaning on you and chasing hands?

Hah ! :D:D

[nasmedicine]

Common sense would dictate that someone can only lean of you if you let them, e.g. you are holding them up. If there is nothing to lean on then there is no lean...

[Robinhood]

Common sense would dictate that someone can only lean of you if you let them, e.g. you are holding them up. If there is nothing to lean on then there is no lean...

So your saying , he teaches his students to resist him, so he can lean on them ?



cheers

[nasmedicine]

So your saying , he teaches his students to resist him, so he can lean on them ?



cheers

No, I can't speak for Alan because I'm not Alan, also I have never exchanged with him or any of his students. However, I do know of Robert Chu and leaning is not what Robert does. If you have ever played with Robert Chu's people or Alan's students and you are under the impression that they are indeed leaning on you then it is your fault for letting it happen. Having said that, my statement still rings true.

[Hendrik]

Here are a few examples of objectively better chi/gor sau than the previously posted clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guWUo8qS53U&list=FLGgLYCMyEo5C1BYd4A52eHg&feature=mh_lolz

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08-fHZDzr1Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzhD5sP78cc&feature=BFa&list=FLGgLYCMyEo5C1BYd4A52eHg


Could you please share your reasons?

[guy b.]

Could you please share your reasons?

Much better use of movement; stepping and angling. Obvious use of chi/gor sau as a skill enhancement tool rather than as a competitive hitgrapple. Lack of handchasing. Much better posture and power train engagement (e.g. relaxation of upper body, use of horse). No gaps left in time and space, correct mindset being trained.

Why? Don't you like the clips?

[GlennR]

Much better use of movement; stepping and angling. Obvious use of chi/gor sau as a skill enhancement tool rather than as a competitive hitgrapple. Lack of handchasing. Much better posture and power train engagement (e.g. relaxation of upper body, use of horse). No gaps left in time and space, correct mindset being trained.

Why? Don't you like the clips?

Youll regret asking that........ he'll respond with something about 5 layers, emei, snake, white crane, 1850, YKM transformation......... or just his smug "i know better" attitude.

Youve been warned! ;)

[Alan Orr]

Much better use of movement; stepping and angling. Obvious use of chi/gor sau as a skill enhancement tool rather than as a competitive hitgrapple. Lack of handchasing. Much better posture and power train engagement (e.g. relaxation of upper body, use of horse). No gaps left in time and space, correct mindset being trained.

Why? Don't you like the clips?

Just goes to show how people can see something in such a different way depending on their background in training and experience.

Sounds like a different clips to me. I see bad posture, lots of hand chasing and unrealistic angles with stepping back into a opponent striking ranges for heavy punches, some good entering, but no horse power, back and shoulder muscles being used to much. At least he posts clips and its better than some.

Guy - whats your background? You seem follow the wsl method?

[Alan Orr]

Youll regret asking that........ he'll respond with something about 5 layers, emei, snake, white crane, 1850, YKM transformation......... or just his smug "i know better" attitude.

Youve been warned! ;)

Maybe he does know better. If you don't understand something then best to just listen

[GlennR]

Maybe he does know better. If you don't understand something then best to just listen

And he would understand better because?

[Alan Orr]

I still don't understand why your guys aren't coming in on you upon loss of contact. In all three of these videos including the first video you posted in this thread, it appears as if they're literally just standing still when they could be coming in on you and pressuring you back. More importantly, by coming in on you, they'll actually improve their structure against you by the line of force changing of what you're trying to manipulate. For instance, if you're pulling on my arm, by myself not collapsing but allowing you to pull my whole body weight into the direction you pull, it will change the apex of force making you not only have to pull 200 lbs of body but it will freeze you for a moment forcing you to switch. It seems as if they're just pulling back against the direction of your pull with their arms instead of only pulling back to neutralize and lock the body together forcing you to move the whole body. Why are they bending at their waists when collapsing? Why isn't the whole body moving when being yanked on or pushed? Why are their arms coming up so high to protect their faces that there is no triangle to absorb/redirect force? If the upper arm is parallel to the ground and the force isn't coming from above, it has no structure, not even my personal opinion, fact.

I don't know man, I guess it's your style of Wing Chun, so whatever....

Yes they can't come in as they have loss balance control. When you use structure in the way I do then often the opponent is not able to set their power up, so it looks like they are not trying. We do not use a triangle in the arms to absorb force, as that gives you no defense of power or line of attack. Again unless you can feel the pressure it can be hard to understand why their reaction is such. Sai did post his feedback but no everyone listens.

I only post about styles, system, people than know and have had experience with, otherwise my views would not hold much weight. Also I train fighters so I have tested all these ideas with guys that fight.

[Alan Orr]

And he would understand better because?

I am just saying, if he is talking about something you don't understand then its best to listen. He does know about structure in the way I view it.

[GlennR]

I am just saying, if he is talking about something you don't understand then its best to listen. He does know about structure in the way I view it.

So because he agrees with you (or you think so) then i should listen to him??

And you assume i dont know about structure?

[guy b.]

Just goes to show how people can see something in such a different way depending on their background in training and experience.

Sounds like a different clips to me. I see bad posture, lots of hand chasing and unrealistic angles with stepping back into a opponent striking ranges for heavy punches, some good entering, but no horse power, back and shoulder muscles being used to much. At least he posts clips and its better than some.

Guy - whats your background? You seem follow the wsl method?

Chi sau is an error correcting drill to train the characteristic shape of wing chun, the striking path, feeling/habit based on keeping the shape, and mind/intention according to the kuen kit.

It is not a hitgrappling battle. You cannot train any of the characteristic wing chun methods when you do not use the drill as intended, especially when you do not move.

[guy b.]

So because he agrees with you (or you think so) then i should listen to him??

And you assume i dont know about structure?

Alan appears to base all of his arguments on this tautology

[k gledhill]

Chi sau is an error correcting drill to train the characteristic shape of wing chun, the striking path, feeling/habit based on keeping the shape, and mind/intention according to the kuen kit.

It is not a hitgrappling battle. You cannot train any of the characteristic wing chun methods when you do not use the drill as intended, especially when you do not move.

Good post. Energy exchange is often confused with over pressurization. Like playing a musical instrument, one hand does one thing and the other another...
Not both hands smashing the keys of a piano. Skill not brawn.

[Alan Orr]

Good post. Energy exchange is often confused with over pressurization. Like playing a musical instrument, one hand does one thing and the other another...
Not both hands smashing the keys of a piano. Skill not brawn.


Also skill has to stand up to real pressure as well.

[Alan Orr]

Alan appears to base all of his arguments on this tautology

No arguments. You have a view based on what you think. That's fine. I don't agree with your views. I know the style you are talking about and have crossed hands with many top guys so I do know what is the difference first hand. That's it. When I ask you about your background you don't answer. You just repeat the same stuff.

[Alan Orr]

Chi sau is an error correcting drill to train the characteristic shape of wing chun, the striking path, feeling/habit based on keeping the shape, and mind/intention according to the kuen kit.

It is not a hitgrappling battle. You cannot train any of the characteristic wing chun methods when you do not use the drill as intended, especially when you do not move.


Chi Sao is many things. How you use it depends on your level of understanding and skill. We have basic drilling for beginners. Then we move into more live drilling and then move live free play. Again it's what we do and may not be what you do. The test of which works is down to using it. Posted what you think all the time is a waste of time.

[guy b.]

Also skill has to stand up to real pressure as well.

Sparring (preferably against people you don't know) tests how your shape stands up to pressure, while drills and forms refine technique deficiency and repair mitakes highlighted during sparring. On this basis you are doing a drill incorrectly in your clip

[guy b.]

test of which works is down to using it. Posted what you think all the time is a waste of time.

Alan we are on a forum. It is a place for discussing (i.e. expressing what you think, hopefully in a logical way).

[Alan Orr]

Sparring (preferably against people you don't know) tests how your shape stands up to pressure, while drills and forms refine technique deficiency and repair mitakes highlighted during sparring. On this basis you are doing a drill incorrectly in your clip


That is your view. Drilling Chi Sao and playing Chi Sao are two different things. Also pressure testing your Chi Sao is another thing as well. We spar all the time and with fighters outside our group. Then we work on what worked well and what did not. Simple. Again you don't answer my questions and repeat the same things. My group has over 200 fights - K1 Boxing MMA Chi Sao events. So lots of real feedback. What is your background in terms of gaining feedback?

[Alan Orr]

Alan we are on a forum. It is a place for discussing (i.e. expressing what you think, hopefully in a logical way).


I rather post information and share on a forum. Then chat yes. But what I think based on things I don't know is not my style. I post what I think on things I know about.

[guy b.]

I rather post information and share on a forum. Then chat yes. But what I think based on things I don't know is not my style. I post what I think on things I know about.

How do you know you know what you think you know?

I also post on things I know about.

[k gledhill]

Pressure testing in sparring and actual combat is essential.

[Alan Orr]

How do you know you know what you think you know?

I also post on things I know about.


You again have not answered anything. Have you rolled with me?

[Alan Orr]

Pressure testing in sparring and actual combat is essential.

Agreed and for most in wing chun the first steps are testing your structure in Chi Sao.

[Hendrik]

Much better use of movement; stepping and angling. Obvious use of chi/gor sau as a skill enhancement tool rather than as a competitive hitgrapple. Lack of handchasing. Much better posture and power train engagement (e.g. relaxation of upper body, use of horse). No gaps left in time and space, correct mindset being trained.

Why? Don't you like the clips?


Thanks.

Here is my five cents.

I think both types are good to simulate different momentum phenomenons in fighting. It depends on who And what one face.

Your types are great to train the phenomenom as you describe.

Alans is great to train the phenomenon as one got stuck in momentum crisis to deal with a large and sticky Innetial momentum.

in my view,
Both phenomenon exists in real fight depend on the people and condition. To know both are a good deal because they both exist in real situation.



For me, it can be analogy to be familiar with using the light weight weapon as the bat jam do and Kwan do. Due to the weight of the weapons, different momentum situation exist.

For example to dealing with a usual chinese kung fu guy and the deep penetrate momentum bjj pin lower apps take down attack set up, or a bigger heavier athletic guy crashing in blindly . Different tpye of momentum patterns to deal with. Angling and side stepping good is great if can be done , and there are time momentum needs to be face square or being force to have to deal with squarely.

As for how do one deal with both types of phenomenon, that depend heavily on the individual power and momentum handling and generation .

[k gledhill]

Agreed and for most in wing chun the first steps are testing your structure in Chi Sao.

We pressure test in fighting. Chi sao is a mutual give and take role reversal. Iow not fighting in Chi sao. We place more mental pressure of reflex speed reactions to one another. But not more brute forward arm pressure. We add angling like we would fighting. Movement under pressure with shifting steps to tactical positions, like slipping force.

[Hendrik]

We pressure test in fighting. Chi sao is a mutual give and take role reversal. Iow not fighting in Chi sao. We place more mental pressure of reflex speed reactions to one another. But not more brute forward arm pressure. We add angling like we would fighting. Movement under pressure with shifting steps to tactical positions, like slipping force.

IMHO,

Depend on how ones 'engine' is developed to deal with the changes of momentum and changes of force and what type of momentum one faces , That lead to different outcome.

Also even tactic of handling has a dependentcy on the above.

So, chi sau can be different things for different party.

btw.
IMHO, movement and momentum are two different things. Momentum has an Innetial to deal with. Often, side step is not as simple as one think it could be done due to the Innetial of momentum.

[Alan Orr]

We pressure test in fighting. Chi sao is a mutual give and take role reversal. Iow not fighting in Chi sao. We place more mental pressure of reflex speed reactions to one another. But not more brute forward arm pressure. We add angling like we would fighting. Movement under pressure with shifting steps to tactical positions, like slipping force.


Yes we do the same but in a different way. Our angle and body position is different to your method. I'm not using brute forward arm pressure if that's what your saying. We just play harder in order to not get caught up in drill that fall apart under pressure. Harder does not mean less skill.

[Alan Orr]

Thanks.

Here is my five cents.

I think both types are good to simulate different momentum phenomenons in fighting. It depends on who And what one face.

Your types are great to train the phenomenom as you describe.

Alans is great to train the phenomenon as one got stuck in momentum crisis to deal with a large and sticky Innetial momentum.

in my view,
Both phenomenon exists in real fight depend on the people and condition. To know both are a good deal because they both exist in real situation.



For me, it can be analogy to be familiar with using the light weight weapon as the bat jam do and Kwan do. Due to the weight of the weapons, different momentum situation exist.

For example to dealing with a usual chinese kung fu guy and the deep penetrate momentum bjj pin lower apps take down attack set up, or a bigger heavier athletic guy crashing in blindly . Different tpye of momentum patterns to deal with. Angling and side stepping good is great if can be done , and there are time momentum needs to be face square or being force to have to deal with squarely.

As for how do one deal with both types of phenomenon, that depend heavily on the individual power and momentum handling and generation .

Nice post !

[guy b.]

Thanks.

Here is my five cents.

I think both types are good to simulate different momentum phenomenons in fighting. It depends on who And what one face.

Your types are great to train the phenomenom as you describe.

Alans is great to train the phenomenon as one got stuck in momentum crisis to deal with a large and sticky Innetial momentum.

in my view,
Both phenomenon exists in real fight depend on the people and condition. To know both are a good deal because they both exist in real situation.



For me, it can be analogy to be familiar with using the light weight weapon as the bat jam do and Kwan do. Due to the weight of the weapons, different momentum situation exist.

For example to dealing with a usual chinese kung fu guy and the deep penetrate momentum bjj pin lower apps take down attack set up, or a bigger heavier athletic guy crashing in blindly . Different tpye of momentum patterns to deal with. Angling and side stepping good is great if can be done , and there are time momentum needs to be face square or being force to have to deal with squarely.

As for how do one deal with both types of phenomenon, that depend heavily on the individual power and momentum handling and generation .

I agree with this answer to an extent. However I do not think wing chun is for grappling: if you are grappling your wing chun has failed or at least is not applicable. Therefore I would rather train wrestling or judo for standup grappling situations than a derivative answer like CSL wing chun, and I think competition clips showing how susceptible Alan's fighters are to clinch takedowns proves my point.

If you are already grappling then why not just grapple until you are not?

[guy b.]

Yes we do the same but in a different way. Our angle and body position is different to your method. I'm not using brute forward arm pressure if that's what your saying. We just play harder in order to not get caught up in drill that fall apart under pressure. Harder does not mean less skill.

Speed, shape, force vector and movement pressure is infinitely more relevant than pressure from level of final contact in chi/gor sau. Contact pressure to the final target is obtained through sparring and is irrelevant and mostly detrimental during error correcting drills like chi sau.

[guy b.]

You again have not answered anything. Have you rolled with me?

The point is that you dismiss any and all criticism as coming from people who don't understand the incredibly important secrets of your wing chun method. This is a tautology.

And I'm not the one posting clips on a wing chun forum. If you do this you are asking for feedback, i.e. opinion

[Alan Orr]

The point is that you dismiss any and all criticism as coming from people who don't understand the incredibly important secrets of your wing chun method. This is a tautology.

And I'm not the one posting clips on a wing chun forum. If you do this you are asking for feedback, i.e. opinion


Not at all. If someone has something of interest to say then I am happy to listen and chat. People saying what they 'think' with no understanding of my system ... then know I have no interested. I never asked for any feedback, I posted a clip for sharing.

[Hendrik]

I agree with this answer to an extent.

However I do not think wing chun is for grappling: if you are grappling your wing chun has failed or at least is not applicable.

Therefore I would rather train wrestling or judo for standup grappling situations than a derivative answer like CSL wing chun, and I think competition clips showing how susceptible Alan's fighters are to clinch takedowns proves my point.

If you are already grappling then why not just grapple until you are not?


IMHO,

Wing Chun has been evolved and every lineage has thier view and strength and weakness.
Every one has thier preference. That is not an issue.


As for kam na or grappling, Based on Wing Chun 1850 to 1890 data point. In my understanding, IMHO,

The snake part of wck is a big part on Kam na and anti kam na. Or glappling, Close body dealing with joints lock and momentum handling. And There is where the wing Chun kuen pulse Jin are used. Very close body pulsing to break lock, momentum or penetrate.

That snake play is Where the play is deep into the section between the elbow and shoulder, and the shoulder and body range, A deeper momentum involve compare with the general today WCK.
Without this WCK is not a complete art. Wing Chun has wing Chun particular way of doing things and also the general way. Thus, WCK has no kam na or grappling solution will not seem tO be the case in wing Chun 1850. For one cannot deal with what one doesn't know. Kam na or grappling is un avoidable.

As in the other Yuen Kai San YouTube on kulou in this forum at 6.51
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxA5Q4AWeVU

saying , in the old time one "massage" the woodern dummy or mo jong. Not da jong as today.
That is where the art of snake of WCK is practiced.

Not to mention , this snake part is the first part of siu Lin tau for many older wing chun kuen lineages. So that says the important of it.


Thus, who are we to say it is or is it not WCK. Is or is not WCK today is a complicated subject.

[guy b.]

Not at all. If someone has something of interest to say then I am happy to listen and chat. People saying what they 'think' with no understanding of my system ... then know I have no interested. I never asked for any feedback, I posted a clip for sharing.

Alan this sounds like meaningless NLP distortion of language. You are basically restating the age old "those that ask don't know, those that know don't need to ask" fallacy. It is a tautology, no matter which new terms and redefinitions you insist upon.

[Alan Orr]

I agree with this answer to an extent. However I do not think wing chun is for grappling: if you are grappling your wing chun has failed or at least is not applicable. Therefore I would rather train wrestling or judo for standup grappling situations than a derivative answer like CSL wing chun, and I think competition clips showing how susceptible Alan's fighters are to clinch takedowns proves my point.

If you are already grappling then why not just grapple until you are not?

Again you prove my whole point on posted about what you know first hand. The clip is all CSL Wing Chun. If it had wrestling or BJJ etc then it would be a mix = mma training. Wing Chun is not for grappling? Wing Chun is a stand up art with some Chin Na Skills. Grappling is something else - one is not for the other anyway, they are different areas of the martial arts.

Very funny as again you prove my point on posting about what you know rather that what you 'think'. All the fighting clips of my guys are much older clips at a time when mostly all we had was CSL Wing Chun and some catch training. We where just testing our CSL Wing Chun with limited grappling understanding to see how our stand up (CSL Wing Chun) held up. We did very well and had lots of wins and 2 guys won Championship Belts. No ego's win or lose it was all a test for our team and family system. That was a long time ago and we have had now a lot more going on. We now train Wrestling much more and BJJ. I am now a brown belt in BJJ and many of my guys are Blue, Purple belts and a few more at brown level . So I know what is WING CHUN and what is GRAPPLING, thank you.

We now as a team over 7 championship belts in MMA and K1 we have had boxing wins K1 wins lots of MMA at all levels. We have lost some fights as well and learnt the most from them.I think I win rate is 75-80% now.

This weekend we won 2 more comps. I been training one of my Pro Fighters for a MMA fight in 5 weeks. I also help teach other MMA teams and other fighters as well.

We don't post all our new fights as the fighters are up and coming and we like to keep the best quite until people have seen a lot of them. I have lots of clips of me sparring with my pro fighters but they will go out once they have had more fights. We don't need to show our opponents their strengths and weakness right now.

I have some excellent Pro's developing now using CSL Wing Chin training - Chi Sao , CSL Chinese Boxing for stand up. Wrestling, catch, BJJ, Sambo for the ground. Simple. I have said all this over and over, but I always have the same few guys repeat the same incorrect 'ideas of what they think'. Why? It adds nothing.

[guy b.]

IMHO,

However, Wing Chun 1850. In my understanding, IMHO,

The snake part of it is a big part on Kam na and anti kam na. Close body dealing with joints lock and momentum handling. There is where the wing Chun kuen pulse Jin are used. Where the play is deep into the section between the elbow and shoulder, and the shoulder and elbow. A deeper momentum evolve compare with the general today WCK

Sorry, WTF?

[Alan Orr]

Sorry, WTF?


Using the linking and delinking of the body.

[guy b.]

I agree with this answer to an extent. However I do not think wing chun is for grappling: if you are grappling your wing chun has failed or at least is not applicable. Therefore I would rather train wrestling or judo for standup grappling situations than a derivative answer like CSL wing chun, and I think competition clips showing how susceptible Alan's fighters are to clinch takedowns proves my point.

If you are already grappling then why not just grapple until you are not?

Again you prove my whole point on posted about what you know first hand. The clip is all CSL Wing Chun. If it had wrestling or BJJ etc then it would be a mix = mma training. Wing Chun is not for grappling? Wing Chun is a stand up art with some Chin Na Skills. Grappling is something else - one is not for the other anyway, they are different areas of the martial arts.

Very funny as again you prove my point on posting about what you know rather that what you 'think'. All the fighting clips of my guys are much older clips at a time when mostly all we had was CSL Wing Chun and some catch training. We where just testing our CSL Wing Chun with limited grappling understanding to see how our stand up (CSL Wing Chun) held up. We did very well and had lots of wins and 2 guys won Championship Belts. No ego's win or lose it was all a test for our team and family system. That was a long time ago and we have had now a lot more going on. We now train Wrestling much more and BJJ. I am now a brown belt in BJJ and many of my guys are Blue, Purple belts and a few more at brown level . So I know what is WING CHUN and what is GRAPPLING, thank you.

Lol at the "no YOU prove MY POINT" response.

Alan your reading, comprehension and logical skills are atrocious. Please read posts more carefully before responding.

I'm not saying your clip involves wrestling or bjj. I think it is your take on wing chun. This is exactly why it is a dam(n)ing indictment of your method.

Since the available clips show your CSL wing chun alone does not hold up at all well vs grappling what on earth are you still doing training chi sau as semi hit semi grapple competitive slugfest? Are you insane?

[Hendrik]

Sorry, WTF?

Please re visited my edit post.

[Hendrik]

Using the linking and delinking of the body.

Also disrupt momentum vectors....ect.

Yes, link and de link, localize and full body.
Sometimes, the momentum or force comes in too fast or un expected. no time for those full body action support by the feet. Sometimes one needs a snap but cannot effort the delay from power generation called from the feet.

No single solution for all.

[Alan Orr]

Also disrupt momentum vectors....ect.

Yes sorry of course, that is the key to using the skill.

[Alan Orr]

Lol at the "no YOU prove MY POINT" response.

Alan your reading, comprehension and logical skills are atrocious. Please read posts more carefully before responding.

I'm not saying your clip involves wrestling or bjj. I think it is your take on wing chun. This is exactly why it is a ****ing indictment of your method.

Since the available clips show your CSL wing chun alone does not hold up at all well vs grappling what on earth are you still doing training chi sau as semi hit semi grapple competitive slugfest? Are you insane?

Hello.. it has held up well thank you. Oh you used that word again - think

haha maybe you should think more

You just said your not saying my clips involves wrestling then you say why are we doing a semi grapple slugfest.. too funny.

You never answer my questions. Who do you train with and whats your background? Why do you have all the wing chun answers?

I keep telling you this is Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun. I already know its not the method you are using. I really can't see you point other that to try to slander me. Big deal you don't like it .. then don't watch it.

[Alan Orr]

Also disrupt momentum vectors....ect.

Yes, link and de link, localize and full body.
Sometimes, the momentum or force comes in too fast or un expected. no time for those full body action support by the feet. Sometimes one needs a snap but cannot effort the delay from power generation called from the feet.

No single solution for all.

Very Nice post

[guy b.]

Please re visited my edit post.

Reads like you are advocating anti grappling type chin na from within wing chun. I don't think this is a very good idea. Far better to use effective grappling methods if you happen to be grappling. Wing chun is not an effective grappling method

[guy b.]

You just said your not saying my clips involves wrestling then you say why are we doing a semi grapple slugfest.. too funny.

Wing chun grappling (grappling based on ideas found or imagined from within the wing chun system) does not equal actual grappling. Wing chun grappling = a mess, as your clips show, if it exists at all and isn't just a mistaken interpretation of the system

[guy b.]

I keep telling you this is Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun. I already know its not the method you are using. I really can't see you point other that to try to slander me. Big deal you don't like it .. then don't watch it.

Alan if you don't like negative feedback then don't post your clips on internet forums. I'm sure you would see the point of positive feedback

[guy b.]

Assume that Hendrick is correct and that there are different equally appropriate applications of wing chun theory at normal hitting range and a range where there is no time to transmit force from the feet in the usual way.

If this is the case, why do all of the available clips of CSL wing chun never show normal chi/gor sau with angling and movement? Why do they only show the waddling, no movement, lordosis afflicted chin na type wing chun? Seems an odd omission to focus on the special case and omit the normal.

[Hendrik]

Reads like you are advocating anti grappling type chin na from within wing chun. I don't think this is a very good idea. Far better to use effective grappling methods if you happen to be grappling. Wing chun is not an effective grappling method

A part of sticking of WCK is grappling related it has been like that since 1850.

Take a look at 0.53. To 1.05. The reel 纏 ,trap joints 困節，and tie up 挷 of kam na or grappling example from one of the olderst wing Chun Gm today.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8f2-adtfG8


These technics can be found in some older WCK lineages first section of thier slt or the snake section. The yik kam slt snake section stored these type of information.


And also this type of jin , using Chen taiji demo here, these are common technics and Jin which are needed to cover the basic of WCK 1850. IMHO. In yik kam lineage these stuffs is within the four cycle hue kam tiu tap or in other lineages within the noi lin and ngoi lin cycle etc.
This is an example of delinking not using the full body Jin from the full body but small Jin from local.

http://v.youku.com/v_playlist/f3839880o1p8.html

As I mention in the other threat there are general and particular solution for every style. And the general to the minimum is always needed to be covered . Otherwise there are blind spot or hole in the art.

Again, these things exist in wing Chun 1850. These stuffs are in the three sets.

[guy b.]

A part of sticking of WCK is grappling related it has been like that since 1850.

Take a look at 0.53. To 1.05. The reel 纏 ,trap joints 困節，and tie up 挷 of kam na or grappling example from one of the olderst wing Chun Gm today.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8f2-adtfG8

He's just wrapping an arm and hitting with the other hand.


This is an example of delinking not using the full body Jin from the full body but small Jin from local.

http://v.youku.com/v_playlist/f3839880o1p8.html

As I mention in the other threat there are general and particular solution for every style. And the general to the minimum is always needed to be covered . Otherwise there are blind spot or hole in the art.

Again, these things exist in wing Chun 1850. These stuffs are in the three sets.

Notwithstanding the fact that this is tai chi and not wing chun, you can't seriously be advocating this kind of thing as a genuine alternative to conventional styles of wrestling?

[Alan Orr]

Wing chun grappling (grappling based on ideas found or imagined from within the wing chun system) does not equal actual grappling. Wing chun grappling = a mess, as your clips show, if it exists at all and isn't just a mistaken interpretation of the system


Don't add your own limitations to others

[Alan Orr]

Alan if you don't like negative feedback then don't post your clips on internet forums. I'm sure you would see the point of positive feedback

Of course positive feedback is welcome. Comments from someone who 'thinks' they know it all is pointless.

You still avoid my questions. Where do you train? Our you London based?

[Hendrik]

1.He's just wrapping an arm and hitting with the other hand.



2.Notwithstanding the fact that this is tai chi and not wing chun, you can't seriously be advocating this kind of thing as a genuine alternative to conventional styles of wrestling?

1.You are free to read things as you like.

2. Again, That Jin in demo is a general Jin of all internal tcma, in the WCK it is within the noi lin and NGOi Lin such as in yuen Kai San and other older WCK lineages, for de linking and anti kam na.

Demo in taiji is just a convenient pick by me . A type of Jin is a type of Jin, doesn't matter who demo it. Those wcners who has noi Lin and ngoi Lin in thier lineages know where is it.

[Ali. R]

Of course positive feedback is welcome. Comments from someone who 'thinks' they know it all is pointless.

Alan,

You have accomplished a lot in what you do and no one can take that from you; you don’t show off and you don’t talk crap. Most of all, you don’t put others down based on who you are/know, but only train and train hard while sharing at the same time. Some love to watch but knock the fact of sharing (accumulations of clips), because they see things that the untrained can’t see; that make them unsettle.

All I see is a practitioner from another wing chun family doing his thing, but if you put anyone down in the process; your skills/knowledge is better, I could very well see something else. By the way you post (not often), and when you post, comes off as one that’s just sharing and not the almighty syndrome.

We all could learn a lot from each other and it’s nothing wrong with fact on fact conversations, but the almighty syndrome is something that’s hard for me to deal with.

You are a good person and I’ve always enjoy your clips very much,

[GlennR]

He's just wrapping an arm and hitting with the other hand.



Notwithstanding the fact that this is tai chi and not wing chun, you can't seriously be advocating this kind of thing as a genuine alternative to conventional styles of wrestling?

I told you not to ask ;)

[GlennR]

Of course positive feedback is welcome. Comments from someone who 'thinks' they know it all is pointless.



Ok, so you dont want any negative/objective comments on the clips that you post.

At least youve said it now

[Hendrik]

Notwithstanding the fact that this is tai chi and not wing chun, you can't seriously be advocating this kind of thing as a genuine alternative to conventional styles of wrestling?


Didnt the usual using the tan sau twist to break hand gripping in common WCK practice the same type of small Jin as shown in this taiji demo?

So, what is so special about taiji?

[Alan Orr]

Ok, so you dont want any negative/objective comments on the clips that you post.

At least youve said it now

From people I respect - then I am happy to listen and learn. From people who just have 'an idea' or 'think' they know - then no I have no time for them.

Why be negative anyway? If you don't something then nothing to do or worry about. If you have something of value to add then great, but to have value means it must come from someone of value.

[GlennR]

From people I respect - then I am happy to listen and learn. From people who just have 'an idea' or 'think' they know - then no I have no time for them.

Why be negative anyway? If you don't something then nothing to do or worry about. If you have something of value to add then great, but to have value means it must come from someone of value.

And it appears you base "respect" on peoples comments about your clips.

And why did i comment on your clip? Because i had an opinion. Its a forum Alan.

Funny thing is, ive always like your clips and defended your approach to WC. Its similar to mine (ive made mention how similar you look to my instructor).
But it seems the minute someone disagrees with you, they're on the "no-respect blacklist".

Ill make a note not to comment on your clips from now on

[Alan Orr]

Alan,

You have accomplished a lot in what you do and no one can take that from you; you don’t show off and you don’t talk crap. Most of all, you don’t put others down based on who you are/know, but only train and train hard while sharing at the same time. Some love to watch but knock the fact of sharing (accumulations of clips), because they see things that the untrained can’t see; that make them unsettle.

All I see is a practitioner from another wing chun family doing his thing, but if you put anyone down in the process; your skills/knowledge is better, I could very well see something else. By the way you post (not often), and when you post, comes off as one that’s just sharing and not the almighty syndrome.

We all could learn a lot from each other and it’s nothing wrong with fact on fact conversations, but the almighty syndrome is something that’s hard for me to deal with.

You are a good person and I’ve always enjoy your clips very much,


Thank you Ali for your kind words and support.

I love Wing Chun number one. Many times people have tried to put Wing Chun down as MMA is now the vogue. I feel Wing Chun is an excellent art but I can also see why many MMA guys see it as fake. We have a lot of people in the art that just don't understand real pressure. The guys like yourself that do pressure test understand what I am talking about. Some others may like to think a chain punch or a palm to a grappler's head will stop a fight with no problem. Good luck them.

I post the clips to show Wing Chun can handle hard pressure from real fighters. I would think that's a good thing. What seems to happen is the insecure guys don't like to see an idea that may show that what they are doing is not going to hack it.

More clips to come as I have many to put out next week.

My best

[Alan Orr]

And it appears you base "respect" on peoples comments about your clips.

And why did i comment on your clip? Because i had an opinion. Its a forum Alan.

Funny thing is, ive always like your clips and defended your approach to WC. Its similar to mine (ive made mention how similar you look to my instructor).
But it seems the minute someone disagrees with you, they're on the "no-respect blacklist".

Ill make a note not to comment on your clips from now on

Respect is given in different ways. By known someone and their skills are real. Or be being friendly even when you disagree. I can respect a view if someone is saying they don't like the way I apply something or even my ideas of application. But I can not respect someone telling me what they 'think' I am doing or that I have a lack of balance etc when they just can't know that without feeling it. Also with the feedback that was given from my students you think a wise person would listen.

In your case if you read my first reply to you not liking my clip, it was friendly and I answer your question with no problem.

I have said so many times now, that I have no problem at all with people not agreeing with me. I will be as friendly as can be. I just don't think telling me what I am doing when they don't know at all is disagreeing with me - it's guessing, which I see no point in. Also to then tell me it's not wing chun etc is just rude. I trained wing chun for over 20 years and have traveled the world. I have trained to a high level in many martial arts and also many styles of wing chun before CSL Wing Chun. I have a great teacher who as taught me very well. I have touched hands with many known people and had no problems at all. So I know what is and what is not. That's maybe why I don't suffer fool's too well. For that end I will try harder. But my goal is for the good of Wing Chun.

[nasmedicine]

Respect is given in different ways. By known someone and their skills are real. Or be being friendly even when you disagree. I can respect a view if someone is saying they don't like the way I apply something or even my ideas of application. But I can not respect someone telling me what they 'think' I am doing or that I have a lack of balance etc when they just can't know that without feeling it. Also with the feedback that was given from my students you think a wise person would listen.

In your case if you read my first reply to you not liking my clip, it was friendly and I answer your question with no problem.

I have said so many times now, that I have no problem at all with people not agreeing with me. I will be as friendly as can be. I just don't think telling me what I am doing when they don't know at all is disagreeing with me - it's guessing, which I see no point in. Also to then tell me it's not wing chun etc is just rude. I trained wing chun for over 20 years and have traveled the world. I have trained to a high level in many martial arts and also many styles of wing chun before CSL Wing Chun. I have a great teacher who as taught me very well. I have touched hands with many known people and had no problems at all. So I know what is and what is not. That's maybe why I don't suffer fool's too well. For that end I will try harder. But my goal is for the good of Wing Chun.

That was exceptionally well said. Alan if you or any of your students ever come to New York/New Jersey please feel free to contact me as I would love to meet up and exchange knowledge.

- Cheers

Nirav

[WC1277]

You're a total hypocrite through and through, simple as that. You've told people yourself what you think is going on in the clips they post as well. I'll take your stance then as well. You don't know what you're talking about in regards to WSL, Fong, etc. you don't do those systems. You do CSL, remember? You also do sport fighting and are incredibly ignorant to think that others haven't tested their wing chun of choice. You said earlier that you can still use skill when going hard and I agree but if you don't perfect when not going hard you're just trying to test amateur skill and thinking its high level skill. To me, in my very humble opinion, your skill IS amateur at best under the guise of thinking hard training equals ability. Your clips no longer interest me. Goodbye

[imperialtaichi]

Respect is given in different ways. By known someone and their skills are real. Or be being friendly even when you disagree. I can respect a view if someone is saying they don't like the way I apply something or even my ideas of application. But I can not respect someone telling me what they 'think' I am doing or that I have a lack of balance etc when they just can't know that without feeling it....

....I have said so many times now, that I have no problem at all with people not agreeing with me. I will be as friendly as can be. I just don't think telling me what I am doing when they don't know at all is disagreeing with me - it's guessing, which I see no point in....

Well said Alan. I guess, everyone on this forum should learn from this.

[Ali. R]

I know sometimes we can get angry and trouble can follow us even when we’re not looking for it; if you don’t mind?

http://youtu.be/nGGNryq08kU

[Happy Tiger]

I think it is interesting that reguardless of house, style or level of skill, pretty much every clip ever shown here gets torn a new one. This forum has some of the best VT and kung fu masters and experts in the whole world sharing and rubbing elbows, yet few can agree on even the most universal of ideas concepts and techniques. In fact, this is heartening to me. Gung fu is truely a mystery that reveales itself anew to all that climb it's ranks. It also shows that dispite all it's benifits, even the masters still struggle with what it all means and with their own (and others) egos. You guys are all so good I don't always understand the disagreements. I think I'm gonna go back to lurk mode awhile unless I've really got something to share. I was going to share some clips but there doesn't seem to be much but derision to honest open sharing. If any one really wants to see they're in my facebook page. Even though a fighter, I'm guess I'm too thin skinned for this kind of 'scrapping'.

[imperialtaichi]

I think it is interesting that reguardless of house, style or level of skill, pretty much every clip ever shown here gets torn a new one. This forum has some of the best VT and kung fu masters and experts in the whole world sharing and rubbing elbows, yet few can agree on even the most universal of ideas concepts and techniques. In fact, this is heartening to me. Gung fu is truely a mystery that reveales itself anew to all that climb it's ranks. It also shows that dispite all it's benifits, even the masters still struggle with what it all means and with their own (and others) egos. You guys are all so good I don't always understand the disagreements. I think I'm gonna go back to lurk mode awhile unless I've really got something to share. I was going to share some clips but there doesn't seem to be much but derision to honest open sharing. If any one really wants to see they're in my facebook page. Even though a fighter, I'm guess I'm too thin skinned for this kind of 'scrapping'.

Hey HT, this is IMO one of the most civilized forum already! Every forum has it's good guys and bad, this is no exception.

Martial Art IS an art; there are no absolute rights or wrongs, but different interpretations. Something very trivial to others, can be "hitting a raw nerve" to an individual (including myself). Not agreeing, and arguments is part of the package.

The only thing that matters is, how one benefits from the disagreements.

Cheers,
John

[imperialtaichi]

"Many of the truths that we cling to depend on our point of view." Obi-Wan Kenobi

[nasmedicine]

I think it is interesting that reguardless of house, style or level of skill, pretty much every clip ever shown here gets torn a new one. This forum has some of the best VT and kung fu masters and experts in the whole world sharing and rubbing elbows, yet few can agree on even the most universal of ideas concepts and techniques. In fact, this is heartening to me. Gung fu is truely a mystery that reveales itself anew to all that climb it's ranks. It also shows that dispite all it's benifits, even the masters still struggle with what it all means and with their own (and others) egos. You guys are all so good I don't always understand the disagreements. I think I'm gonna go back to lurk mode awhile unless I've really got something to share. I was going to share some clips but there doesn't seem to be much but derision to honest open sharing. If any one really wants to see they're in my facebook page. Even though a fighter, I'm guess I'm too thin skinned for this kind of 'scrapping'.

One word, Ego and a lot of it.

[Hendrik]

It is karma instead of ego. Ego is A product of karma.

Due to different karma.
Human sees water as water. Ghost sees water as fire. Gods sees water as crystal.

Ego comes when one describe what one sees unaware of ones karma.

[nasmedicine]

I agree, Ego is a manifestation of one's karma.

For those that do not believe in karma the other definition (not the Freudian one) still applies.

[chris bougeard]

"You said earlier that you can still use skill when going hard and I agree but if you don't perfect when not going hard you're just trying to test amateur skill and thinking its high level skill. To me, in my very humble opinion, your skill IS amateur at best under the guise of thinking hard training equals ability. Your clips no longer interest me. Goodbye "

The above is incredibly insulting to my teacher and my brother instructors in the Chu Sau Lei system. The views my teacher has espoused in this thread are both empirical and experiential. Empirical in that again and again both he and his instructors have touched hands many many times with guys from different systems of Wing Chun and coped well with our method.

Experiential on my teachers part in that he himself has put his skills on the line to prove our system not just against other Wing Chun practitioners but people from different fighting systems. To say Alans skill is amateur from someone who wont even use their own name on this forum is breathtaking.

[Frost]

". To say Alans skill is amateur from someone who wont even use their own name on this forum is breathtaking.

Hi this is the wing chun forum you must be new :)

Honestly its par for the course here im sure Alan realises this and its why he only posts now and then!

[sanjuro_ronin]

Newsflash: most people don't make clips of their training to meet your personal standards of acceptability.

Since chi sau is the main training drill of wing chun it naturally features in a lot of training clips on the internet.

I don't recall seeing clips of you, wayfaring, frost, or Alan Orr for that matter engaging in fighting. Should I therefore act like the policeman of the internet until you provide me with such clips?

Actually, people DO make clips to meet MY standard of acceptablility.
How do I know this?
because they POST them on PUBLIC forums INVITING feedback.
Shocking I know...
And as for my clips, the moment I start advocating something that you can't see anywhere else, I'll post clips without stop and I guarantee that the vast majority would be fighting.
Of course I have posted clips about training and certain drills and in those I am NOT fighting simply because the clips are NOT about fighting BUT about something else in SPECIFIC.
Hence I don't have issues with chi sao clips at all, they are what they are.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Pressure testing in sparring and actual combat is essential.

And if more WC people did it, then chi sao would be put into its proper perspective as the simple drill that it is and NOT what WC is all about.

[imperialtaichi]

And if more WC people did it, then chi sao would be put into its proper perspective as the simple drill that it is and NOT what WC is all about.

Chi Sau skills is what happens after engagement and should take no more than a split second before you or your opponent is shut down, knocked out, or disengaged; Without learning how to engage, one gets knocked out before any Chi Sau skills is put to good use.

[Alan Orr]

That was exceptionally well said. Alan if you or any of your students ever come to New York/New Jersey please feel free to contact me as I would love to meet up and exchange knowledge.

- Cheers

Nirav

Many thanks Nirav. I would love that. I will be over to the US later in the year, so keep in touch

[Alan Orr]

You're a total hypocrite through and through, simple as that. You've told people yourself what you think is going on in the clips they post as well. I'll take your stance then as well. You don't know what you're talking about in regards to WSL, Fong, etc. you don't do those systems. You do CSL, remember? You also do sport fighting and are incredibly ignorant to think that others haven't tested their wing chun of choice. You said earlier that you can still use skill when going hard and I agree but if you don't perfect when not going hard you're just trying to test amateur skill and thinking its high level skill. To me, in my very humble opinion, your skill IS amateur at best under the guise of thinking hard training equals ability. Your clips no longer interest me. Goodbye


I know these other styles better that most. I have trained in lots of wing chun other the years, then I found CSL which answered all the problems I was having. I have rolled with many guys with 25+ in lots of different branches, so I do know what I am doing works just fine. I never said others have not tested their wing chun. I have a friends in WT and other systems that have. I train with friends in other styles of wing chun. We don't all have the same ideas but we can workout together. It is just clear that many wing chun styles or people do not test of push out of the comfort zone.

[Alan Orr]

Well said Alan. I guess, everyone on this forum should learn from this.


Thank you.

[Alan Orr]

And if more WC people did it, then chi sao would be put into its proper perspective as the simple drill that it is and NOT what WC is all about.

This is very true

[k gledhill]

And if more WC people did it, then chi sao would be put into its proper perspective as the simple drill that it is and NOT what WC is all about.

Chi-sao is the root of all evil today :D

[Jeff_H]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpKncYG7rUk

Alan Orr Chi Sao to Gor Sao clip.

New Clip today. This is Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun. It may be different to some others. Just sharing my clip.very nice training session. Loose format from typical chi sao rolling + mix up with touch n go. Looks like fun.

Suggestion is to improve on your bridging. Lots of contact with no result. When you make contact it ends up more like blocks instead of penetration. Block stick kick and punch, but sticking should have more wedging/prying open.

[Jeff_H]

I know these other styles better that most. I have trained in lots of wing chun other the years, then I found CSL which answered all the problems I was having. I have rolled with many guys with 25+ in lots of different branches, so I do know what I am doing works just fine. I never said others have not tested their wing chun. I have a friends in WT and other systems that have. I train with friends in other styles of wing chun. We don't all have the same ideas but we can workout together. It is just clear that many wing chun styles or people do not test of push out of the comfort zone.agreed on cultural exchange across lineages

[sanjuro_ronin]

Chi-sao is the root of all evil today :D

Well...what people have MADE it to be seems to be the root of all evil in WC !
Imaging a MT guys saying that clinch drills is everything in MT or a grappler saying that the "over/under" drill is the HEART of Grappling .

[Phil Redmond]

Very true Phil.

I did run an event a few years ago. Full contact Strikes below the neck and touch contact to the head in Chi Sao. My guys won 8 golds and 1 silver. Out of the 9.

This year I was looking to run it again, but we had no takers.


I will be setting up an event for every 3-4 months to try to get more people interested. I would also be happy to enter as well.
Regarding no takers I expected as much. I'm continually defending Wing Chun to fighters in other MAs who think WC is a joke as a fighting art. I can understand where they're coming from though. After all, they see us criticize real fights because they don't see the perfect techniques seen in demos and chi sao clips where only one guy is attacking.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Regarding no takers I expected as much. I'm continually defending Wing Chun to fighters in other MAs who think WC is a joke as a fighting art. I can understand where they're coming from though. After all, they see us criticize real fights because they don't see the perfect techniques seen in demos and chi sao clips where only one guy is attacking.

When a MA has issues with people asking to see it in a real fight ( one person trying to beat on the other), then one should wonder what kind of MA it is.
When a MA has people criticizing it over and over and over then those practicing should ask themselves, why?

[Robinhood]

I think it is interesting that reguardless of house, style or level of skill, pretty much every clip ever shown here gets torn a new one. This forum has some of the best VT and kung fu masters and experts in the whole world sharing and rubbing elbows, yet few can agree on even the most universal of ideas concepts and techniques. In fact, this is heartening to me. Gung fu is truely a mystery that reveales itself anew to all that climb it's ranks. It also shows that dispite all it's benifits, even the masters still struggle with what it all means and with their own (and others) egos. You guys are all so good I don't always understand the disagreements. I think I'm gonna go back to lurk mode awhile unless I've really got something to share. I was going to share some clips but there doesn't seem to be much but derision to honest open sharing. If any one really wants to see they're in my facebook page. Even though a fighter, I'm guess I'm too thin skinned for this kind of 'scrapping'.

Yes most forums are run by regulars that can be described by the saying "the empty vessel bellows loudest ", this is one of the better forums because moderators are better, MAP is one of the worst , "Rum soaked Fist " has some good guys , but they don't post much because of the low level of moderator knowledge.

Forums are a fun read, like comic strip, but don't take to seriously, the best people never post videos, and stay low key.

It seems more like the people that are posting on you tube are probably more doing it for marketing purpose or ego reasons.



Cheers