Dragon style

[Blacktiger]

Anyone do any Southern Dragon here or Dragon Pearl.

Seems really hard to get any info on this style...

Or seems quite obscure.

[Golden Arms]

Sifu Mike Doucet is running a retreat at the end of this month that will cover a Loong Ying/Dragon pole set, and Pak Mei hand controls, among other things.

Info can be found at this link if you are interested:

http://www.pakmei.net/announcements/view.asp?ID=22 (http://www.pakmei.net/announcements/view.asp?ID=22)

[MightyB]

I had a college buddy that practiced Southern Dragon out of NYC. I remember him doing a garden hoe form that I thought was pretty cool. Interesting style in how they use stepping to enter and occupy your space when they fight. The only thing that I didn't care for was that supposedly if a person practiced long enough, they'd get a concave chest because of how they held their upper body.

[Southern Fist]

Black Tiger,

I have a training sister in Australia her name is Linda Ung she teaches Lung Ying Southern Dragon I believe in Sydney. What is your inquiry on Lung Ying?

Mighty B,

The concave chest part is part of the internal body method. But it should only be applied when executing the techniques and or drills. It is a misconcepting that the Lung Ying/Southern Dragon practitioner always must have a concave chest.


Peter Pena
Arizona Martial Arts Lion Dance Association

[LaterthanNever]

GoldenArms,

For some reason your link wont open when I click. Is the seminar in Canada or Seattle? Thanks.

LTN

[jo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zY-W7zQr0iM

- jo

[Runlikehell]

Black Tiger,

I have a training sister in Australia her name is Linda Ung she teaches Lung Ying Southern Dragon I believe in Sydney. What is your inquiry on Lung Ying?


Southern Fist, Linda is in Sydney. You're correct.

Blacktiger, there is/was a Dragon Pearl school in Tassie. I believe it is said to be the only one outside of Malaysia.
http://web.archive.org/web/20040128110911/http://www.southcom.com.au/~jbkoay/index.html

[Golden Arms]

GoldenArms,

For some reason your link wont open when I click. Is the seminar in Canada or Seattle? Thanks.

LTN

LaterthanNeer

The retreat is in Canada, north of Toronto. If the link is not working for you, try going to http://www.pakmei.net/ and on that page click on "Temagami Retreat 2012" in the bottom right hand corner. It would be great to see a few of you there this year.

[Ao Qin]

Hi Blacktiger,

I've been practicing the Lung Ying method for about 25 years now, in Winnipeg, MB. Please email me if you have questions...

The Dragon community is actually quite vibrant - small in comparrison to some other arts, but there are many good teachers out there. Many don't advertise on the web though - nobody will ever get rich teaching Dragon Style!

And...greetings to my Dragon Sisters and Brothers! The Dragon appears in a flash of light, only to vanish...

Cheers - AQ
dragon-kf@mymts.net

[Blacktiger]

Southern Fist, Linda is in Sydney. You're correct.

Blacktiger, there is/was a Dragon Pearl school in Tassie. I believe it is said to be the only one outside of Malaysia.
http://web.archive.org/web/20040128110911/http://www.southcom.com.au/~jbkoay/index.html

Thanks to all for the info :)

The Dragon Pearl school is the one in Tassie I have been hanging out with doing some cross training. I have to say Im really enjoying it.

But yes - its the only one outside Malaysia, but very little info.

[Runlikehell]

Ah, I see. That's what I figured.

Are you able to give basic descriptions/info about what you've seen so far? I'm curious to see if it bears any similarities to what we know as Lung Ying or if it's just another system with 'Lung' in its name.

I read somewhere that Dragon systems that were called for example 'Fukien Dragon' 'Guangzhou Dragon' were merely Lam Yiu Gwai's system, just named after the area the practitioner was teaching in.

However, since there's not much information on Long Choo I'm unsure if the founder was a disciple of Dai Yuk or of LYG, or it's more than just a variant.

Thanks.

[Blacktiger]

Look to be honest I have not really done that much yet, only a few classes (time wise).

But....

Its semi traditional, they have a few forms (sabre,dragon pole, butterfly knives) from what I have seen/heard - there may be others of course.

But the focus is more on apps, bag, pad/work, sparring. Seems to have a fair component of hand conditioning. Punching phone books with short range inch power etc. No Qigong or internal training to speak of.

My background is Northern Shaolin so for me its all new, but as I said Im really enjoying it. Always good to empty your cup!

[MightyB]

My friend in college studied under this master (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=nZt4inREtI0). I appreciate the stepping and power demonstrated in this style.

[Runlikehell]

Look to be honest I have not really done that much yet, only a few classes (time wise).

But....

Its semi traditional, they have a few forms (sabre,dragon pole, butterfly knives) from what I have seen/heard - there may be others of course.

But the focus is more on apps, bag, pad/work, sparring. Seems to have a fair component of hand conditioning. Punching phone books with short range inch power etc. No Qigong or internal training to speak of.

My background is Northern Shaolin so for me its all new, but as I said Im really enjoying it. Always good to empty your cup!

Thought so.

Thank you for the information, some of it sounds similar to Lung Ying.

You're right, it's always good to empty your cup.

[Blacktiger]

Ok..

I just found out from some info they gave me that its Fukien Dragon. Does that make sense?

Not sure what the Fukien denotes however?

[Runlikehell]

If it's a variant of Lung Ying, could just be that it is called that because who ever learned it began to teach it in Fukien. That's an origin story I've heard for some branches of Lung Ying.

If it's a completely different system, all I would guess is that it was founded in Fukien and/or is said to come from the Southern Shaolin temple in Fukien.

Fukien is Fujian, btw. If that's what you meant.

I wonder if there's the possibility of it originating from Northern Dragon, and then moving south?

[Blacktiger]

Ok cool thanks for the info...

Yeah im really in the dark so to speak with that side of things.

I will try and get some more info, and when I do will post.

The only other info I have is that its basically a folk line, father to son etc which is why its so small.

[Runlikehell]

That's understandable.

Thanks for that. I had a feeling it might have been passed down that way. It must be pretty small to only have schools that teach it in two countries.

[Ng Jit]

Hi Blacktiger,

Many don't advertise on the web though - nobody will ever get rich teaching Dragon Style!


Cheers - AQ
dragon-kf@mymts.net

Can you get rich off of teaching any authentic kung fu?

Also one of my teachers teaches Mok gar in San Diego... his site is here.

http://www.sojournpast.com/

[SimonM]

LaterthanNeer

The retreat is in Canada, north of Toronto. If the link is not working for you, try going to http://www.pakmei.net/ and on that page click on "Temagami Retreat 2012" in the bottom right hand corner. It would be great to see a few of you there this year.

Man, if I had $1,000 extra lying around I would SO go there. Temagami is beautiful. (But saying it's north of Toronto is a bit of an under-statement. It's north of North Bay.)

[ittokaos]

Hey Gabriel, long time no see. Haven't seen you since Sifu Manny's B-day. How have you been?


Anyway, Sifu Martin and Peter Pena are both in AZ. The school in San Diego is a Bagua school if I am not mistaken.


I hope this helps,

RP2

[sanjuro_ronin]

My friend in college studied under this master (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=nZt4inREtI0). I appreciate the stepping and power demonstrated in this style.

Me likes that form.

[Dale Dugas]

I have always liked Lung Ying, Bak Mei, Nam Tong Long Pai(whatever branch) for their structure and power generation.

[Hebrew Hammer]

Can you get rich off of teaching any authentic kung fu?

Also one of my teachers teaches Mok gar in San Diego... his site is here.

http://www.sojournpast.com/

His sight is still up but I've contacted him, he's no longer in SD bummer....



Anyway, Sifu Martin and Peter Pena are both in AZ. The school in San Diego is a Bagua school if I am not mistaken.


I hope this helps,

RP2

You are correct. Who would want to move to AZ?? Its like moving to face of the sun.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I have always liked Lung Ying, Bak Mei, Nam Tong Long Pai(whatever branch) for their structure and power generation.

Makes one wonder about how common they all are...common as in descended from a common system.

[Golden Arms]

Man, if I had $1,000 extra lying around I would SO go there. Temagami is beautiful. (But saying it's north of Toronto is a bit of an under-statement. It's north of North Bay.)

The retreat was great, I put a bunch of pictures up at http://www.appliedcombat.com/?page_id=652 We all had a blast out there.

[SimonM]

The retreat was great, I put a bunch of pictures up at http://www.appliedcombat.com/?page_id=652 We all had a blast out there.

Grumble grumble grumble...


Lucky...

Grumble grumble.

[Frost]

Makes one wonder about how common they all are...common as in descended from a common system.

umm hakka roots anyone?

[sanjuro_ronin]

umm hakka roots anyone?

Perhaps, or even further back.
But my point was not the common heritage, but that they all may have had a common "ancestor" from which they all evolved ( based on individual preferences and interpretations of the various masters).
It wouldn't surprise me of SPM, WC, White Crane, Dragon fist, Pak Mei, Five ancestors, etc, all came from the same root system.

[Frost]

Perhaps, or even further back.
But my point was not the common heritage, but that they all may have had a common "ancestor" from which they all evolved ( based on individual preferences and interpretations of the various masters).
It wouldn't surprise me of SPM, WC, White Crane, Dragon fist, Pak Mei, Five ancestors, etc, all came from the same root system.

if you ever read ginger fists old posts on here, the seed art for him was a hakka art way before it went to the temple to become southern mantis, since both CLC and dragons creator studied the same hakka fist art in their youth its not too hard to think they all come from the same seed fist, was that fist a hakka one brought to the south by the hakka or something else, who honestly knows its been so long all i know is that they are fun to practise :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

if you ever read ginger fists old posts on here, the seed art for him was a hakka art way before it went to the temple to become southern mantis, since both CLC and dragons creator studied the same hakka fist art in their youth its not too hard to think they all come from the same seed fist, was that fist a hakka one brought to the south by the hakka or something else, who honestly knows its been so long all i know is that they are fun to practise :)

Controversy may be that the Okinawan styles may have it right all along...

[Frost]

Controversy may be that the Okinawan styles may have it right all along...
controversy and chinese arts go hand in hand lol
its amazing to me how many nameless monks walked around china teaching these guys their super secret arts....hey why couldnt someone just say look im a tough son of a b*tch i have survived war, violence and dead matches and this is the art i have created...but oh no they all seemed to find a secret monk to learn from :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

controversy and chinese arts go hand in hand lol
its amazing to me how many nameless monks walked around china teaching these guys their super secret arts....hey why couldnt someone just say look im a tough son of a b*tch i have survived war, violence and dead matches and this is the art i have created...but oh no they all seemed to find a secret monk to learn from :)

Well, its pretty much accepted that the "old monk taught me" or the "inspired by an animal" thing was just a TCMA tradition used to add "flavour" to a system that was developed by simple trial and error on the part of the Master.
It wasn't misleading anyone ( as it would be now for example) but just a standard tradtion.
Popular in Japan too, many a RYU was developed by "divine revelation" of by the teachings of a Tengu, LOL !

[Faruq]

If it's a variant of Lung Ying, could just be that it is called that because who ever learned it began to teach it in Fukien. That's an origin story I've heard for some branches of Lung Ying.

If it's a completely different system, all I would guess is that it was founded in Fukien and/or is said to come from the Southern Shaolin temple in Fukien.

Fukien is Fujian, btw. If that's what you meant.

I wonder if there's the possibility of it originating from Northern Dragon, and then moving south?

I can't remember where I saw this, but I remember seeing something that said that Lung Ying was originally Eagle style, but for some reason they changed the name to Dragon there in Southern China. Anyone here that before?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I can't remember where I saw this, but I remember seeing something that said that Lung Ying was originally Eagle style, but for some reason they changed the name to Dragon there in Southern China. Anyone here that before?

Nope, if that is the case, a LOT more than just a name was changed if by eagle you mean eagle claw.

[Frost]

Well, its pretty much accepted that the "old monk taught me" or the "inspired by an animal" thing was just a TCMA tradition used to add "flavour" to a system that was developed by simple trial and error on the part of the Master.
It wasn't misleading anyone ( as it would be now for example) but just a standard tradtion.
Popular in Japan too, many a RYU was developed by "divine revelation" of by the teachings of a Tengu, LOL !

what may not have ben misleading and was standard practise back them,,,casues a cluster f*ck of problems these days,...............:mad:

[sanjuro_ronin]

what may not have ben misleading and was standard practise back them,,,casues a cluster f*ck of problems these days,...............:mad:

Well duh !
LOL !

[Dr.Rob]

All valid points. You guys truely see the modern issue and its implications of poor records. Never was the term "new and improved" used. Or modified? Just plainly " ancient tradtion of temple kung fu passed to me by a great a secret monk" so you can't trace it...therefore you must believe me.

The Eagle term that Frost mentioned...i have heard several times. If you look at Golden Eagle...you can see the hakka vein. Now? could it be some unsavoury dude wanted to link his kung fu with the roots of another successful style for street cred? Maybe.?

I see things this way...
From wiki so it must be true..."Lam Yiu Gwai and Jeung Lai Chuen were good friends from their youth in the Dongjiang region of Huizhou, longtime training partners and later cousins by marriage. Lam and Jeung would open several schools together, and Southern Dragon style and Jeung's style of Bak Mei share many similarities."

Lam Yiu Gwai had learned BaK Mei orginally, then modified it based on his body type. Thick torso, strong as bull, low centre of gravity. That would mean the phoneix eye fist (rapid footwork, dodging and speed) would not be as effective. So he switched to a flat fist. (rooted, hitting with the rear leg pushing)

So in fact another system, with a completely other biomechanical superiority theory. ???

[Frost]

I thought dragon pre dated bak me (and CLC actually learned from Lams uncle this family style) and that lam yiu gwai simply put all his teachings into a coherent structure that we now know as modern dragon?
From what I remember they both trained the same base hakka art , hence the shared similarities jik bo and 16 steps are an awful lot alike lol, and the difference coming from their other teachers and as you say their size difference

[sanjuro_ronin]

I thought dragon pre dated bak me (and CLC actually learned from Lams uncle this family style) and that lam yiu gwai simply put all his teachings into a coherent structure that we now know as modern dragon?
From what I remember they both trained the same base hakka art , hence the shared similarities jik bo and 16 steps are an awful lot alike lol, and the difference coming from their other teachers and as you say their size difference

Some have argued that snake predates Dragon and that dragon was used to give a more "celestial" sound to the system.

[Dr.Rob]

Frost. Got me there... Never heard that one?

[Hebrew Hammer]

Lam Yiu Gwai had learned BaK Mei orginally, then modified it based on his body type. Thick torso, strong as bull, low centre of gravity. That would mean the phoneix eye fist (rapid footwork, dodging and speed) would not be as effective. So he switched to a flat fist. (rooted, hitting with the rear leg pushing)

So in fact another system, with a completely other biomechanical superiority theory. ???

Please forgive my ignorance as I'm not familiar with these styles but this makes total sense to me...so what did Lam Yiu Gwai modify Bak Mei into? Lama Pai? Or something else? I'd like to see some samples of the above described style if they're available. Anyone know if vids are available?

Just curious because that body description sounds like me to an extent and want to see style customized towards that.

[Ng Jit]

Hey Gabriel, long time no see. Haven't seen you since Sifu Manny's B-day. How have you been?


Anyway, Sifu Martin and Peter Pena are both in AZ. The school in San Diego is a Bagua school if I am not mistaken.


I hope this helps,

RP2

Ya Sifu Martin had told me he was moving to Arizona. I had just looked up his page. I am not sure what went on with the school. Originally I was his student when he taught next door in the Taoist temple and then visited for periods of time at the school next door.

When I left about 10 years ago or so he was talking about going to Arizona. So I suppose this probably is the case... As for personal conversations I will PM you LOL...

[sanjuro_ronin]

All valid points. You guys truely see the modern issue and its implications of poor records. Never was the term "new and improved" used. Or modified? Just plainly " ancient tradtion of temple kung fu passed to me by a great a secret monk" so you can't trace it...therefore you must believe me.

The Eagle term that Frost mentioned...i have heard several times. If you look at Golden Eagle...you can see the hakka vein. Now? could it be some unsavoury dude wanted to link his kung fu with the roots of another successful style for street cred? Maybe.?

I see things this way...
From wiki so it must be true..."Lam Yiu Gwai and Jeung Lai Chuen were good friends from their youth in the Dongjiang region of Huizhou, longtime training partners and later cousins by marriage. Lam and Jeung would open several schools together, and Southern Dragon style and Jeung's style of Bak Mei share many similarities."

Lam Yiu Gwai had learned BaK Mei orginally, then modified it based on his body type. Thick torso, strong as bull, low centre of gravity. That would mean the phoneix eye fist (rapid footwork, dodging and speed) would not be as effective. So he switched to a flat fist. (rooted, hitting with the rear leg pushing)

So in fact another system, with a completely other biomechanical superiority theory. ???

I don't know...force multipliers work for all body types really.
They tend to be priortized in "inclose" fighting systems for a few reasons, the main being they increase the percussive effect ( which you need since you have less momentum based force) and because the fist has less to travel, better chance of hitting the target so a "pin point" strike has a better chance inclose than from the "outside".
With a "thick torso, strong as a bull and low center" you'd think he prefer to be inclose.
Like the Goju/Uechi guys who also use lots of "PE fists".
If her was more "stocky" I can see him preferring " lots of powerful singles" to "machine gun combos" but I don't see the PE fist being viewed as ""not as effective".

[Frost]

Frost. Got me there... Never heard that one?

Lam learned from his father Lam Yun who was a store owner and whose family was trained in the east river fist arts, what they called the hakka influenced arts back then, he also learned the arts at the local temples on the near by luo fo mountains , he spent years there of and on perfecting his already good skills

Cheung Lai Chuen began learning the martial methods of the Wanderer's Sect, or Lau Man), in his youth under the tutelage of the local bonesetter and martial teacher Lam Sek (林石). Cheung's second instructor was Lei Mung of Lei Yi's lineage from whom he learned an array of mid-ranged and close quarter unarmed methods and weapons native to Lei Ga (李; more commonly known as the Li, or Lee, Family System). The young prodigy was then trained in Lung Ying Kyun by master Lam Yun - who was the father of famed Dragon Style founder Lam Yiu Gwai and Lam Ah Hap who was his uncle…and then of course he met his final teacher in the temple

So CLC learned Lam family style which would later become Dragon, of course being friends and related by marriage they shared techniques and sets

[Frost]

I don't know...force multipliers work for all body types really.
They tend to be priortized in "inclose" fighting systems for a few reasons, the main being they increase the percussive effect ( which you need since you have less momentum based force) and because the fist has less to travel, better chance of hitting the target so a "pin point" strike has a better chance inclose than from the "outside".
With a "thick torso, strong as a bull and low center" you'd think he prefer to be inclose.
Like the Goju/Uechi guys who also use lots of "PE fists".
If her was more "stocky" I can see him preferring " lots of powerful singles" to "machine gun combos" but I don't see the PE fist being viewed as ""not as effective".

there are a few theories on why he removed them from the art (or held them back until latter sets) one is that he felt it was too dangerous to be taught, the other was that with his size and skill he didnt need them
Lam from what we can see did like to be in close but like to use more angles stepping and take the opponents balance than the normal firece straight attack method you see in bakmei, he also used a lot of hammer fist strikes where he could sink his body weight behind the strikes (these dont need the PE fist to be effective)...he had a lot of body weight to sink lol

[Runlikehell]

I thought dragon pre dated bak me (and CLC actually learned from Lams uncle this family style) and that lam yiu gwai simply put all his teachings into a coherent structure that we now know as modern dragon?
From what I remember they both trained the same base hakka art , hence the shared similarities jik bo and 16 steps are an awful lot alike lol, and the difference coming from their other teachers and as you say their size difference

I read a theory on another board (I'll have to find the post again, had it saved on my old PC) that was similar in parts to your post and Dr. Rob's.

The gist of the post was that Lam Yiu Kwai and Cheung Lai Chuen had either learned the same arts, or that what eventually became Lung Ying and Bak Mei respectively were originally intended to be the same thing. The only difference was to have been the power generation between the two.
However, Lam Yiu Kwai then modified it based on his body style.

I'm not sure if that's 100% exact to what I read, and it was just a theory (from someone who I believe had studied both arts).

[Frost]

I read a theory on another board (I'll have to find the post again, had it saved on my old PC) that was similar in parts to your post and Dr. Rob's.

The gist of the post was that Lam Yiu Kwai and Cheung Lai Chuen had either learned the same arts, or that what eventually became Lung Ying and Bak Mei respectively were originally intended to be the same thing. The only difference was to have been the power generation between the two.
However, Lam Yiu Kwai then modified it based on his body style.

I'm not sure if that's 100% exact to what I read, and it was just a theory (from someone who I believe had studied both arts).

Alot of people study both arts together (I know I do lol) as they stayed close friends and opened several schools together it’s not that uncommon to find teachers of both

Mantis108 had some good posts on the history of the arts basically CLC studied with three main teachers, one of whom was Lams father or uncle, then formulated bakmei after training with a fourth person in a temple
Lam trained with his family and then hit the local temples and had an additional 3 teachers, 2 buddhist 1 Taoist and formulated his style

So same base art in their youth hence the simulatires in the two arts, but different finishing teachers hence the differences

[sanjuro_ronin]

there are a few theories on why he removed them from the art (or held them back until latter sets) one is that he felt it was too dangerous to be taught, the other was that with his size and skill he didnt need them
Lam from what we can see did like to be in close but like to use more angles stepping and take the opponents balance than the normal firece straight attack method you see in bakmei, he also used a lot of hammer fist strikes where he could sink his body weight behind the strikes (these dont need the PE fist to be effective)...he had a lot of body weight to sink lol

Perhaps, or maybe he just didn't like them ( like me with finger strikes).
Who really knows BUT it is fun to speculate :)

[Frost]

Perhaps, or maybe he just didn't like them ( like me with finger strikes).
Who really knows BUT it is fun to speculate :)

Yep what else are we going to do...actual work..or worse still train?!?!

[sanjuro_ronin]

That might involve perspiration.
Eww.

[Frost]

That might involve perspiration.
Eww.

its ok i have the solution go internal and do tai chi :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

its ok i have the solution go internal and do tai chi :)

Gay....:D

Going back on topic, LOL, I think that if we were to go back enough, we'd find one style that was the grandparent of all these short hand systems.
They share far too much to have been "thought up out of thin air".
Deep down I don't think it matters that much of course since fighting systems MUST adapt and evolve to survive BUT I think it is important in the sense that practitioners should accept that they are NOT doing anything "special and unique" just a different expression.

[Frost]

Gay....:D

Going back on topic, LOL, I think that if we were to go back enough, we'd find one style that was the grandparent of all these short hand systems.
They share far too much to have been "thought up out of thin air".
Deep down I don't think it matters that much of course since fighting systems MUST adapt and evolve to survive BUT I think it is important in the sense that practitioners should accept that they are NOT doing anything "special and unique" just a different expression.
everyone likes to be special and unique dont burst my buble little man or else!!!
:eek::cool:

You are right on all accounts though we should accept the examples of those old guys, Lam sort out everyone he could to spar/fight and trade/learn from, he never thought what he had was the best his art evolved and changed as he did

CLC also changed over his career, so much so that hong kong and mainland bakmei have different sets, different height stances and so on, when he beat someone and they started to teach his art they added the flavour of their pervious style

was bakmei the ultimate martial art...or was CLC simply one of the best fighters of his generation, and just because he made it would doesn't mean its so special that i can make it work without the same hard work he put in lol

[sanjuro_ronin]

everyone likes to be special and unique dont burst my buble little man or else!!!
:eek::cool:

You are right on all accounts though we should accept the examples of those old guys, Lam sort out everyone he could to spar/fight and trade/learn from, he never thought what he had was the best his art evolved and changed as he did

CLC also changed over his career, so much so that hong kong and mainland bakmei have different sets, different height stances and so on, when he beat someone and they started to teach his art they added the flavour of their pervious style

was bakmei the ultimate martial art...or was CLC simply one of the best fighters of his generation, and just because he made it would doesn't mean its so special that i can make it work without the same hard work he put in lol

And you hit on the crucial element that so many seem to either forget or ignore or not know:
These MA came to be from fighting and those master came to be reknown from fighting.
NOT each other but other fighters and other systems.
Short hand systems were not developed to fight against OTHER short hand systems, much less against each other and as a matter of fact, many lineages have rules about doing just that.
Of course one must train with what one has but the thing is that the masters of old, due to their extensive fighting eperience KNEW what other systems look liked, what they did, the puzzles they presented and because of that, even though a Dragon stylist trained with another dragon stylist, the master taught them how to deal with a CLF or HK or northern mantis, etc.
When did we lose that?
When the classes went from a few to a few dozen.
It is my view that when an old time master taught a student how to deal with a round kick (as en example), he did NOT do it from a "dragon style" POV but from what the student would probably be fighting.

A modern example would be a Dragong Style Sifu teaching a student how to deal with a MT low round kick by throwing him a - wait for it- MT LOW ROUND KICK !
Crazy, I know !
:D

[Faruq]

CLC also changed over his career, so much so that hong kong and mainland bakmei have different sets, different height stances and so on

Which is more effective and deadly; mainland or Hong Kong style?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Which is more effective and deadly; mainland or Hong Kong style?

The one that best suits you ;)

[Faruq]

Wow, Ronin. I get your point. But I'm still wondering if a mainland Bak Mei master and a Hong Kong Bak Mei master got into a fight over a $1,000 gambling debt; which one would win. I guess that's a question that can never really be answered. You always do seem to cut through all the BS and get straight to the meat of the matter so I should've expected you to answer like this, lol.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Wow, Ronin. I get your point. But I'm still wondering if a mainland Bak Mei master and a Hong Kong Bak Mei master got into a fight over a $1,000 gambling debt; which one would win. I guess that's a question that can never really be answered. You always do seem to cut through all the BS and get straight to the meat of the matter so I should've expected you to answer like this, lol.

The answer to that question is actually real simple, the practitioner that is the best fighter well have the better chance of winning.
Think of it this way:
A guy with a .44 magnum VS a guy with a .22.
You'd think the .44 has the best chance but if the guy with the magnum doesn't know how to use it when it counts and misses his shots and the guy with the .22 hits him in the head and heart with every single shot, well...

[Faruq]

But there you know the .44 is the better gun that does more damage and is more powerful. The circumstances of course matter greatly as you indicated, but you get me. With mainland vs Hong Kong there's no well this one's the .44 and that one's the .22. I guess its like the age old which would win Wing Chun or Bak Mei Pai? We'll never get a definitive answer, lol...

[sanjuro_ronin]

But there you know the .44 is the better gun that does more damage and is more powerful. The circumstances of course matter greatly as you indicated, but you get me. With mainland vs Hong Kong there's no well this one's the .44 and that one's the .22. I guess its like the age old which would win Wing Chun or Bak Mei Pai? We'll never get a definitive answer, lol...

If you wanna have a formula to try and "guess" who would win, I suggest:
Training> person/style>lineage.

On other words, the guy with the better training and fighting experience trumps the guy with less (all things being equal) so, IF one lineage favours actual fighting and testing over anything else, chances are they will produce better fighters.

[Frost]

Which is more effective and deadly; mainland or Hong Kong style?

what ronin said :cool:

[Faruq]

If you wanna have a formula to try and "guess" who would win, I suggest:
Training> person/style>lineage.

On other words, the guy with the better training and fighting experience trumps the guy with less (all things being equal) so, IF one lineage favours actual fighting and testing over anything else, chances are they will produce better fighters.

Yeah, I should've phrased it with all other things equal the only difference being mainland Bak Mei vs Hong Kong, who'd win. But still can't be answered.

[Runlikehell]

Alot of people study both arts together (I know I do lol) as they stayed close friends and opened several schools together it’s not that uncommon to find teachers of both

Mantis108 had some good posts on the history of the arts basically CLC studied with three main teachers, one of whom was Lams father or uncle, then formulated bakmei after training with a fourth person in a temple
Lam trained with his family and then hit the local temples and had an additional 3 teachers, 2 buddhist 1 Taoist and formulated his style

So same base art in their youth hence the simulatires in the two arts, but different finishing teachers hence the differences

Yeah, I'm familiar with this. Was just going off what I read. It's good to reconfirm information.
I've studied Lung Ying for a few months now and I'm enjoying every minute of it. Would like to see some Bak Mei too, if given the chance.

I found that post. It's the second one on this page. Make of it what you will.

http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9660&start=15

[soulfist]

http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9660&start=15

Woah, thats the most technical discussion I ever read on Bak Mei!

[Runlikehell]

Woah, thats the most technical discussion I ever read on Bak Mei!

I agree. I know little about Bak Mei so I found it interesting, was nice to read something so detailed.

[Yum Cha]

Ronin asked a couple of times about the common origin.

Years back we had a discussion with a few folks and came to a conclusion that Southern White Crane, and the 'San Chen' energy is the common thread carried into the more modern arts, the energy applied to Hakka skills and techniques to create the skills in SPM, PM, LY, etc. Pak Mei talks about the emai mountain breathing exercises too.

[Runlikehell]

Thanks for that, Yum Cha. I'm sure I'd heard that somewhere but couldn't recall where. Probably on this board. :)

[Yum Cha]

Thanks for that, Yum Cha. I'm sure I'd heard that somewhere but couldn't recall where. Probably on this board. :)

We had a thread on the origins of Pak Mei, there was a great guy in Winnipeg, Ao Qin knew him I believe, he came from the Chow Fook lineage and was very knowledgeable, and 'Shaolin Master', another great practitioner and scholar alike, who has feet on the ground in China and speaks the language, I think they both had a good bit to say. You could probably find the thread, it was years ago.

Cheung Lai Cheun and Lam Yew Gwai were close friends and did a lot together. My Si-gung studied with CLC when LYG was with him in the same facility, and learned the Dragon form from his hand. Lam was a beer keg of a man, Cheung was tall and skinny, and mean. I suspect Lam had a better temperament. Chow Fook and his lineage has both CLC and LYG in the tree, they were the most blended ones to the best of my knowledge. Dragon Style are very friendly with Pak Mei traditionally.

The short armed boxing comes from the Hakka traditions and the family styles, not much influence from the Shaolin side, IMHO. The Faat Ging training comes from the Southern White Crane, which was a much older style, from what I remember. All have the '3 step' exercise which comes back to something or the other. Just speculation based on different guys research, and common knowledge.

I think one Southern Praying Mantis guy said something about a common Monk that taught the SPM Grandmaster and CLC, and some others, but that's getting pretty out there. Still, I've heard it quite a bit.

[shaolin_allan]

I think you are referring to dragon as being part of southern 5 animals. We do a mixture of lung ying forms at my sifu's school such as black,white, and a green dragon wudang form.

[Runlikehell]

We had a thread on the origins of Pak Mei, there was a great guy in Winnipeg, Ao Qin knew him I believe, he came from the Chow Fook lineage and was very knowledgeable, and 'Shaolin Master', another great practitioner and scholar alike, who has feet on the ground in China and speaks the language, I think they both had a good bit to say. You could probably find the thread, it was years ago.

Cheung Lai Cheun and Lam Yew Gwai were close friends and did a lot together. My Si-gung studied with CLC when LYG was with him in the same facility, and learned the Dragon form from his hand. Lam was a beer keg of a man, Cheung was tall and skinny, and mean. I suspect Lam had a better temperament. Chow Fook and his lineage has both CLC and LYG in the tree, they were the most blended ones to the best of my knowledge. Dragon Style are very friendly with Pak Mei traditionally.

The short armed boxing comes from the Hakka traditions and the family styles, not much influence from the Shaolin side, IMHO. The Faat Ging training comes from the Southern White Crane, which was a much older style, from what I remember. All have the '3 step' exercise which comes back to something or the other. Just speculation based on different guys research, and common knowledge.

I think one Southern Praying Mantis guy said something about a common Monk that taught the SPM Grandmaster and CLC, and some others, but that's getting pretty out there. Still, I've heard it quite a bit.

Thanks for this, again. I'll try to find that thread.
I'd heard about LYG's size/stature. That thread I linked to earlier on speculated that it was the cause of the differing between stances/guard positions in LY compared to Pak Mei, or at least it was referring to the kung fu that both had learned before finalising their respective arts.

I'd heard about the SPM/CLC connection. I wonder if that's just another way of referencing the common Sam Chien origins..

[Blacktiger]

That's understandable.

Thanks for that. I had a feeling it might have been passed down that way. It must be pretty small to only have schools that teach it in two countries.

Wow this thread has grown!

Ok as promised I found some more info:

http://www.loongchookungfusociety.com.au/lckfs/

[Runlikehell]

Wow this thread has grown!

Ok as promised I found some more info:

http://www.loongchookungfusociety.com.au/lckfs/

From the info on their website, looks like it focuses more on the Five Animals, or at least the Dragon sets. I'd need to see it, but it doesn't appear to have much in common with LY's history.

[Blacktiger]

Yeah I cant help you on that one.

Although from what I have experienced there is no real focus on animal imitation per-se...

Does that make sense?

[Runlikehell]

Yeah I cant help you on that one.

Although from what I have experienced there is no real focus on animal imitation per-se...

Does that make sense?

Yeah, it does. There may be some parallels. Do they twist the waist while striking?

[Blacktiger]

yes they do...

[Runlikehell]

yes they do...

Good to know. Earlier in this thread we spoke of Fukien White Crane having influenced Lung Ying Mor Kiu, Pak Mei and Southern Praying Mantis. I wonder if it has influenced the Dragon Pearl system with them both having roots in Fukien.