Sansik/Sansau v.s. Ip Man The Three Forms

[imperialtaichi]

Promised not to hijack Hendrik's thread, so let's start anew.


Not that I want to get into it here but I will say this... Far too much is emphasis is put on Leung Jans 'Kulo period' which was at the end of his martial art life, his retirement methods so to speak. It should be understood that he did not teach his 12 hands throughout, just at the end, so it shouldn't be concentrated on so much IMHO unless you just want a 'quick fix'. Great for that, not so great for getting a complete picture of Wing Chun like Ip Mans curriculums IMHO.

And yes, some in the Lee family have these methods but they too are far older (from an earlier generation) than the current trends, and so are different again.

1. I see, "Lee family... are far older than the current trends, and are so different again."; you are sounding just like someone on the other thread. :rolleyes: btw, what current trends you are referring to?

2. Who is putting "far too much emphasis on Leung Jan's Kulo Period"?

3. Why would you call it a quick fix?

I have total respect with Ip Man's WC. I have total respect WSL, TST and Wan Kam Leung. I was doing Ip Man's line for years (since 1987) before I started Kulo. Ip Man's WC definitely has a lot of depth. At the same time I can assure you Kulo is far from a "quick fix."

I'm not a guy who cares much about lineage. I care about what works.

[LoneTiger108]

I'm not a guy who cares much about lineage. I care about what works.

Well having you tell me I sound like 'someone else' I think I will throw that one rightbackattcha! ;)

But seriously...


1. What current trends you are referring to?

Anything that comes from Kulo that is 'more' than Leung Jans 12 hands.



2. Who is putting "far too much emphasis on Leung Jan's Kulo Period"?

Er... anyone who promotes Kulo WCK as Leung Jans complete system (??) It was just a brief time in his life that he taught this way, rather like Ip Mans HK years actually. It's great stuff, so don't get me wrong, but good quality Wing Chun will already have much of what you are training within their curriculums.

And it so happens my own Sigung also had contact with the Fung family too, but that is a different animal altogether IMHO.


3. Why would you call it a quick fix?

Because that's what it was before people started to treat it as the 'ultimate' or 'higher level' WCK. I know this from being involved with the first family to ever promote this stuff back in the early eighties :cool:


I have total respect with Ip Man's WC. I have total respect WSL, TST and Wan Kam Leung. I was doing Ip Man's line for years (since 1987) before I started Kulo. Ip Man's WC definitely has a lot of depth.
At the same time I can assure you Kulo is far from a "quick fix."

Your point is taken John. You see Kulo as a whole system and that's cool. And I'm not trying to say that you have no respect for Ip Man stuff, but from what I'm reading you have very little experience of Ip Man WCK outside of WSLs way and sound pretty like many who just talk the fight all day without showing us you can actually do that, much like others here too.

[imperialtaichi]

Anything that comes from Kulo that is 'more' than Leung Jans 12 hands.


Ah, I see, another one of those "mine is the real deal, everyone else' fake." :rolleyes:


anyone who promotes Kulo WCK as Leung Jans complete system (??) It was just a brief time in his life that he taught this way, rather like Ip Mans HK years actually. It's great stuff, so don't get me wrong, but good quality Wing Chun will already have much of what you are training within their curriculums.

As I mentioned 1,000,000 times before, WC is WC. Same root different angle. In the end, it's about what works when.


Because that's what it was before people started to treat it as the 'ultimate' or 'higher level' WCK. I know this from being involved with the first family to ever promote this stuff back in the early eighties :cool:

Your word, not mine. I don't really care sales pitch. You should know nothing is more superior than others.



Your point is taken John. You see Kulo as a whole system and that's cool. And I'm not trying to say that you have no respect for Ip Man stuff, but from what I'm reading you have very little experience of Ip Man WCK outside of WSLs way and sound pretty like many who just talk the fight all day without showing us you can actually do that, much like others here too.

You know very little about me to make such BIG claims.

I started off heavily involved in TST line. My encounter with late WSL was very brief. I had learnt from Derek Fung (a student of Ip Man) for a while. Master Wan Kam Leung had shown me stuff but I am not his student.

Before you say I just "do the talk", at least I demonstrate my fighting methods on video, for people to dissect, more than many on this forum, and much more than YOU. What I post on videos is directly related to how I would apply them in a fight. And I am NOT afraid to cross hands with people. I make that public.

If anyone wants to find me, I play with different stylists at UTS KFC (University of Technology, Sydney Kung Fu Club) almost every week. I like it there because NO ONE talks anyone down, no one pretends to be superior, no one tries to push their agenda down someone's throat and everyone shares freely.

[LoneTiger108]

Ah, I see, another one of those "mine is the real deal, everyone else' fake." :rolleyes:

Hmmm... have I touched a nerve or something?

You sound like I have because I never mentioned that anything beyond the 12 hands isn't the 'real deal'. I just have an opinion that the 12 hands my Sigung learnt was of an older flavour than what I see coming out of Kulo and China today. Whether that be 22 point or 40. Makes no difference to me. They're all developments/additions of the original 12 IMHHO.

Besides, I do not condone teaching the method in our family because that was the explicit instruction from my Sigung. It was his own personal stuff and nothing to do with what he was promoting for Ip Man. Other families have come out sionce, which I believe is a great great thing!


As I mentioned 1,000,000 times before, WC is WC. Same root different angle. In the end, it's about what works when.

What works when??? That is what decides if ones Wing Chun is or isn't Wing Chun? I can't agree with that. Sorry.


Your word, not mine. I don't really care sales pitch. You should know nothing is more superior than others.

Oh I do!! Believe me!! Maybe you're misjudging my writings? It seems so but I'm sorry if I don't believe. Marketing seems to be your 'thing' but I can't show your site now because it's gone offline for some reason!! You had some wayward opportunities for 'being the only representative in your country to be authorised to teach Kulo 22' my friend. Sounded like marketing to me...


You know very little about me to make such BIG claims

I started off heavily involved in TST line. My encounter with late WSL was very brief. I had learnt from Derek Fung (a student of Ip Man) for a while. Master Wan Kam Leung had shown me stuff but I am not his student.

Before you say I just "do the talk", at least I demonstrate my fighting methods on video, for people to dissect, more than many on this forum, and much more than YOU. What I post on videos is directly related to how I would apply them in a fight. And I am NOT afraid to cross hands with people. I make that public.

If anyone wants to find me, I play with different stylists at UTS KFC (University of Technology, Sydney Kung Fu Club) almost every week. I like it there because NO ONE talks anyone down, no one pretends to be superior, no one tries to push their agenda down someone's throat and everyone shares freely.

Well thanks for letting me in a little and sharing your background. Now I do know more about you, so we won't have these misunderstandings rear up again in the future will we?

Somehow I don't think so either :rolleyes:

[LoneTiger108]

"Opportunity does not knock twice.

Be the FIRST certified Kulo Leung Jan 22 representative
in your country/region.

Once you have seen Kulo Wing Chun in action, you will see how effective, and how adaptive it is. In today's world, where people want immediate benefit from their training, Leung Jan's 22 Essential Movement Set has almost all the ingredients to become a successful worldwide phenomen. The only missing ingredient is YOU.

We are looking for associates/representatives to introduce this unique style to your part of the world. Imagine the opportunity it will bring you if every person in your country who wants to learn about the Kulo Wing Chun has to go through no one but you.

If you think you have what it takes, email us at kulowingchun@gmail.com"

It doesn't look like you 'don't care' for marketing here John. And it seems to mention something like a 'quick fix' too??

[CFT]

Immediate benefit does not equate to "quick fix", in my opinion. To me, "immediate benefit" means being able to use your training to some degree from the get go, not doing SNT or sitting in stance for a year.

Kulo/Gulao WCK should ultimately give the same end results as any other lineage of WCK. You just have a different organisation in curriculum and training methods. OK admittedly there appear to be some stylistic differences too.

But I agree the latter half of the excerpt sounds like pure marketing. Bid for your KL22 franchise here ...

[imperialtaichi]

"Opportunity does not knock twice.

Be the FIRST certified Kulo Leung Jan 22 representative
in your country/region.

Once you have seen Kulo Wing Chun in action, you will see how effective, and how adaptive it is. In today's world, where people want immediate benefit from their training, Leung Jan's 22 Essential Movement Set has almost all the ingredients to become a successful worldwide phenomen. The only missing ingredient is YOU.

We are looking for associates/representatives to introduce this unique style to your part of the world. Imagine the opportunity it will bring you if every person in your country who wants to learn about the Kulo Wing Chun has to go through no one but you.

If you think you have what it takes, email us at kulowingchun@gmail.com"

It doesn't look like you 'don't care' for marketing here John. And it seems to mention something like a 'quick fix' too??

Yep, I am the only person in our line outside China promoting it. Am I not allowed to spread it in this free world? Or should I simply let it die?

Spencer, you used to be cool, why are you getting so angry at everyone lately?

[sanjuro_ronin]

WC WAS developed to be a "quick fix" at least according to some legends.

Minimal forms, weapons based on hand techniques ( no not the other way around), focusing on principles over techniques, etc.

All signs pointing to a system designed to be learned and apply "sooner rather than later".

[imperialtaichi]

Immediate benefit does not equate to "quick fix", in my opinion. To me, "immediate benefit" means being able to use your training to some degree from the get go, not doing SNT or sitting in stance for a year.

Kulo/Gulao WCK should ultimately give the same end results as any other lineage of WCK. You just have a different organisation in curriculum and training methods. OK admittedly there appear to be some stylistic differences too.

But I agree the latter half of the excerpt sounds like pure marketing. Bid for your KL22 franchise here ...

Thanks. I agree.

Yes, I do wish more people can benefit from it. But I'm definitely not forcing this down anyone's throat like others, nor knocking anyone else' school, nor claiming anyone else being inferior on the site.

At least I'm honourable in my approach.

[imperialtaichi]

WC WAS developed to be a "quick fix" at least according to some legends.

Minimal forms, weapons based on hand techniques ( no not the other way around), focusing on principles over techniques, etc.

All signs pointing to a system designed to be learned and apply "sooner rather than later".

Yep. Thanks SJR, as my teacher always say, "do you want to be able to fight now, or wait till you are old and grey?"

[sanjuro_ronin]

WC is probably the most MARKETED of all TCMA outside of Taiji.
No reason to get on John about it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yep. Thanks SJR, as my teacher always say, "do you want to be able to fight now, or wait till you are old and grey?"

I have only seen Kulo on youtube and what I have seen and read from Robert Chu.
I think it is WC going/gone in the right direction IMHO.
I hope that it has the "room" for the various practitioners/teachers to also add stuff of their won that they find effective?

[imperialtaichi]

I have only seen Kulo on youtube and what I have seen and read from Robert Chu.
I think it is WC going/gone in the right direction IMHO.
I hope that it has the "room" for the various practitioners/teachers to also add stuff of their won that they find effective?

Yes, any system that is principle/strategy based, can be adapted.

It will be very boring if everyone fights exactly the same way in every boxing match.

Even between TST and WSL, both from Ip Man, ended up with very different personal favour but with the same core.

I've been sharing with a Shaolin Sifu a lot lately. Really beautiful kicker. He used to do competitive fighting and training students for fights. Now when I play with him his hands are becoming more "Kulo-ish" and I'm picking up his kicking habits, but at the same time we both haven't deviated from our core.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yes, any system that is principle/strategy based, can be adapted.

It will be very boring if everyone fights exactly the same way in every boxing match.

Even between TST and WSL, both from Ip Man, ended up with very different personal favour but with the same core.

I've been sharing with a Shaolin Sifu a lot lately. Really beautiful kicker. He used to do competitive fighting and training students for fights. Now when I play with him his hands are becoming more "Kulo-ish" and I'm picking up his kicking habits, but at the same time we both haven't deviated from our core.

Yep, I like the way that sounds.

[Jim Roselando]

Some food for thought:

If Master Leung Jan felt that Wong Wah Sam and the other Gulao pupils were not properly schooled in Wing Chun Boxing then why wouldn't he have said: Guys, i'm a little old now. When I am no longer able to train you I would recommend that you seek out my Foshan senior students for more training etc...

The fact is he did not tell them you should go train with Chan Wah or others. Why? He gave them a complete system of training in a new platform and the Gulao people were very skilled at it but also very private which led to a lot of people not understanding the what/why/how/etc of the art! Essentially, LJ refined the SLT/CK/BJ into one core mini set with 12 sections. Each containing a certain amount of training info. needed to develop the essence of the classical WCK platforms.

Also, thanks to the core training platform we do say it hits/develops the body at a much faster rate than the older platforms so yes we consider it to be a faster development process towards WC cultivation and application but not really a quick fix IMO. If you want a quick fix then you would just practice the first four hands, footwork, choc sao, chi sao, san sao and sparring...


Peace,

[couch]

Yep, I like the way that sounds.

I like the sound of it, too. I think you wrote recently something to the effect that we are the sum of our experiences.

In my line of work (acupunk/Chinese medicine), I see elitist BS all the time, too. There are so many different ways to practice acupuncture (TCM, Tung, Tan, Japanese Palpatory, Five Element, Korean Koryo Therapy, etc) and a lot of folks spout off crap about other styles. A lot of chest beating that reminds me of Wing Chun.

However, I am the sum of my experiences. So the analogy holds true. If I learn a little bit about another style of acupuncture, it doesn't mean I'm not practicing acupuncture anymore - it just means that I have more options. More options to heal for different situations.

Same with Chun, no? :)

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=imperialtaichi;1173644]Promised not to hijack Hendrik's thread, so let's start anew.

((You titled it:Sansik/Sansau v.s. Ip Man The Three Forms. I dont care to deal with "versus"
and have no problem with people doing kulo.

FWIW-For some folks doinga full Ip Man curriculum- there is not just the forms, weapons and chi sao-
there is san sik as well and practicing san sik drills with others.

[GlennR]

Yep, I am the only person in our line outside China promoting it. Am I not allowed to spread it in this free world? Or should I simply let it die?

Spencer, you used to be cool, why are you getting so angry at everyone lately?

Gee John... you thought Spencer was cool at some stage????? ;)

[LoneTiger108]

Yep, I am the only person in our line outside China promoting it. Am I not allowed to spread it in this free world? Or should I simply let it die?

I can't recall saying anything of the sort? It was you who said you're not into the marketing thing but that's neither here or there today!


Spencer, you used to be cool, why are you getting so angry at everyone lately?

I am sorry that you take my posts that way because that is not my intention. I aint angry with you John and I have no interest in being cool :eek:

It is clear from your rallying support that people simply do not see what I see, and what I see is someone proud of their heritage who has every right to promote themselves, but for some reason can not take any criticism whatsoever.

I like to think we are very similar. There is nobody promoting my Sigung on these boards anymore because they all had enough of the bickering and politics. I chose to participate because our family is pretty small in comparison to others yet we are one of the eldest roots of Wing Chun in Europe (if not the eldest!) I can count the 'active' authorised Sifus of our lineage on one hand.


FWIW-For some folks doinga full Ip Man curriculum- there is not just the forms, weapons and chi sao-there is san sik as well and practicing san sik drills with others.

Well Joy, this was also part of what I was 'trying' to say yesterday. As a living example, my kung fu uncle has more than 20 sub-sets in addition to the standard 3 hand forms. And for me, these are not termed as being 'kulo' WCK although they have many of their characteristics. He did coin the term Pien San Wing Chun though!

I am sorry if anyone here thinks I am being dismissive of Kulo WCK because I am one who would love to learn that stuff, I put my 'anger' down to me simply having a bad day at work yesterday so I may have been a little too sharp for some to handle... :o

[imperialtaichi]

It is clear from your rallying support that people simply do not see what I see, and what I see is someone proud of their heritage who has every right to promote themselves, but for some reason can not take any criticism whatsoever.
....

I am sorry if anyone here thinks I am being dismissive of Kulo WCK because I am one who would love to learn that stuff, I put my 'anger' down to me simply having a bad day at work yesterday so I may have been a little too sharp for some to handle... :o

Spencer, no one is rallying support against you. And I have always maintained (quote off Phil Redmond) "Wing Chun is one big family." And I take criticism like everyone else on this forum, "like water off a ducks back."

If you had a bad day at work, take a deep breath.

[Frost]

It is clear from your rallying support that people simply do not see what I see, and what I see is someone proud of their heritage who has every right to promote themselves, but for some reason can not take any criticism whatsoever... :o

Lol pot meet kettle :D

[LoneTiger108]

Lol pot meet kettle :D

Hmmm maybe but I'm sure I have been on the receiving end of more jokes and snide comments than actual 'constructive' criticism! I take that very well indeed when it's presented in a comprehensible manner.

I also deal with this everyday in my work too so reel your neck in dude!

Otherwise it's just insult flinging all round :eek:

[LoneTiger108]

If you had a bad day at work, take a deep breath.

Maybe you too could see your part in this misunderstanding too John and take a piece of your own advice?

[Frost]

Hmmm maybe but I'm sure I have been on the receiving end of more jokes and snide comments than actual 'constructive' criticism! I take that very well indeed when it's presented in a comprehensible manner.

I also deal with this everyday in my work too so reel your neck in dude!

Otherwise it's just insult flinging all round :eek:

come off it you have a go at john for not showing clips in action, when he actually has, and all you can post is compliant drills and demos, you come on hinting at special and secret lineages and having the old real wing chun, then cant see wy people jump all over you

really you cant see this?

[Hendrik]

By the definition of traditional Chinese martial art, form or kung or engine training is the body of the art or tee 體and San Sik or sau Sao is the application of the art or yong 用。in the true Chinese way, in order to have a complete system, both the body tee and the application Yong needs to be exist in the same time .

An art with tee only has not much used because it cannot be applied . An art with Yong only is weak because it has no support.

That is what happen according to authentic Chinese martial art system.


From these above one can clearly see where one stand.

The present day evolution of WCK type ,
where the focus is 100 percent fighting or application without addressing the Kung or body of the art is an incomplete art based on the Chinese tradition.

The present day evolution of WCK type,
Where the Kung or body of the art or the engine is such as Chen taiji is not WCK but Chen taiji with WCK type of application.


The present day evolution of WCK type,

Where the body of the art and the application of the art is a mix with other art but wing Chun body and applications as dominant is a new WCK spin off evolution.

that is how an art is define if one want to go by book of authentic Chinese traditional classification.


As a conclusion, it doesn't matter what the individual claim one is making. All are subject to the above judgement when it comes to tcma.

[LoneTiger108]

come off it you have a go at john for not showing clips in action, when he actually has, and all you can post is compliant drills and demos, you come on hinting at special and secret lineages and having the old real wing chun, then cant see wy people jump all over you

really you cant see this?

Yes I see why people like you may want to jump all over evrything I post! :D

Seriously I think you have misread our conversation!

And I get the feeling you have some sort of issue with people sharing their own experiences because where have I hinted anything like what you mention in this thread?

Are you saying that because I 'believe' that Leung Jans original Sansik was a 12 hand set instead of 22 I am implying that I have that knowledge?? Because if so, you couldn't be more wrong.

[LoneTiger108]

By the definition of traditional Chinese martial art, form or kung or engine training is the body of the art or tee 體and San Sik or sau Sao is the application of the art or yong 用。in the true Chinese way, in order to have a complete system, both the body tee and the application Yong needs to be exist in the same time.

From my experience there are even more things for your Martial Arts to be considered as Traditionally Chinese in origin, but these two keys are very very important :)

[imperialtaichi]

By the definition of traditional Chinese martial art, form or kung or engine training is the body of the art or tee 體and San Sik or sau Sao is the application of the art or yong 用。in the true Chinese way, in order to have a complete system, both the body tee and the application Yong needs to be exist in the same time .

Hendrik,

This is a misconception.

The Sansik/Sansau is NOT just applications. It is called "San" because it is not organised in strict forms. Different parts were designed for different purposes in terms of strategy, development of power, and conditioning of certain parts of the body. In fact, I look at them as "exercises to develop mind and body" more than fighting applications.

As I always say, predefined techniques fails in real fight. The more complex/intricate it is, the worse it fails. You rarely rarely see beautiful "Jet Li look-alike" classic Kung Fu moves applicable in competitions or real fights for this very reason.

What carries you through a fight is Heart, physical attribute, habit, strategy, and simple effective techniques. A good martial art must train all these elements.

[imperialtaichi]

What carries you through a fight is Heart, physical attribute, habit, strategy, and simple effective techniques. A good martial art must train all these elements.

"Heart" is the hardest to train. Some says you are either born with it or not.

[Hendrik]

Hendrik,

This is a misconception.

The Sansik/Sansau is NOT just applications. It is called "San" because it is not organised in strict forms. Different parts were designed for different purposes in terms of strategy, development of power, and conditioning of certain parts of the body. In fact, I look at them as "exercises to develop mind and body" more than fighting applications.

As I always say, predefined techniques fails in real fight. The more complex/intricate it is, the worse it fails. You rarely rarely see beautiful "Jet Li look-alike" classic Kung Fu moves applicable in competitions or real fights for this very reason.

What carries you through a fight is Heart, physical attribute, habit, strategy, and simple effective techniques. A good martial art must train all these elements.

IMHO,
Your view is a modern or western one.

By ancient Chinese view,
Disregard of what San sau or San Sik Being define today, it never develop neigong.
Thus, as in YKS. Where there are the forms Or the body and san Sik the application. That is classical holistic WCK.

[Hendrik]

"Heart" is the hardest to train. Some says you are either born with it or not.

Not in classical internal tcma. Heart is a well define item. Thus, it can be develop.

[imperialtaichi]

IMHO,
Your view is a western one.

Hendrik, before you label me anything, and you like research, look at "Imperial Martial Examinations", Early Ming and Pre-Ming Dynasties. And see how they construct their exams.

Chinese Martial arts, reaches it's peak in popularity during Ming dynasties; that's when many style became "form based" to establish their uniqueness. Prior to that it was more focused on practical training in developing the body and techniques.

[imperialtaichi]

Not in classical internal tcma. Heart is a well define item. Thus, it can be develop.

We are talking about different things. You are talking about 心, I'm talking about 志.

[imperialtaichi]

Disregard of what San sau or San Sik Being define today, it never develop neigong.

You want a bet?

You know more about what I do than me know?

[Hendrik]

Hendrik, before you label me anything, and you like research, look at "Imperial Martial Examinations", Early Ming and Pre-Ming Dynasties. And see how they construct their exams.

Chinese Martial arts, reaches it's peak in popularity during Ming dynasties; that's when many style became "form based" to establish their uniqueness. Prior to that it was more focused on practical training in developing the body and techniques.

John,


IMHO,


By ancient Chinese view, body of art and application of art concept is a thousand of years Chinese concept.

Disregard of what San sau or San Sik Being define today, it never develop Neigong.

Thus, as in YKS or sum nung, or snake and crane wck linege , there are the forms Or the body and san Sik the application. That is classical holistic red boat descended WCK.

You know why do I know these stuffs? Because the cho family ancestors were those who passed the imperial martial examination before they join with yik kam for uprising.


Also, as in the white crane of fujian, 1680. the body of the art is the inch force joints power, via San chin form. The application is the 15 momentums .

IMHO.

As for gulau WCK , the Kung is in the short form such as shown in the YouTube by Gm Fung Chun. Those share the keys of the three forms of all WCK lineage but it is not the 12 , 22, or 42 points. Those are the body of gulau WCK. If that part is missing, the art will become in complete.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmXWjKPYIts


I am ok with evolution . However, my take is as soon as it is about the old generation WCK. It is better to present them as what it is as it is.

As if it is yik kam WCK, I have to go by book as it is. If it is Hendrik WCK that I can define things as I like. That is just me.

[imperialtaichi]

Disregard of what San sau or San Sik Being define today, it never develop Neigong.

Hendrik, do not ASSUME anything you have no knowledge of.

[imperialtaichi]

Hendrik,

I respect your dedication and knowledge.

But do not assume you know everything about everything. It is called delusion.

John

[Hendrik]

Hendrik,

I respect your dedication and knowledge.

But do not assume you know everything about everything. It is called delusion.

John

Please re read my edited previous post. I don't assume.

Everything needs to based on evidence.

And I don't assume to know everything, but everything address on the ancients chinese has an evidence.

similar to the yik kam yjkym , I have to based on the yik kam writing of 1850 and the source from emei 12 zhuang.

Otherwise, I am inventing things from my own mix and take advantage of the name of the ancestors.

[imperialtaichi]

..... I don't assume.

Everything needs to based on evidence.

Then please provide evidence why you are so sure what I practice does not include neigong. Please provide evidence why you would know what's in KL22 more than I do.

[Hendrik]

Then please provide evidence why you are so sure what I practice does not include neigong. Please provide evidence why you would know what's in KL22 more than I do.


Since you are the expert of gulao, please educate us, which of your San Sik is a practice of Neigong?

As for Gm Fung Chun , evidentially, his neigong is from the Sam bai fut similar to in all WCK lineage's including ip man WCK.

[nasmedicine]

"Heart" is the hardest to train. Some says you are either born with it or not.

This one statement embodies my Sifu's entire bases on teaching anyone our brand of WC. Beautiful statement, I am going to steal this one.

[imperialtaichi]

This one statement embodies my Sifu's entire bases on teaching anyone our brand of WC. Beautiful statement, I am going to steal this one.

Haha, I stole your quotes before; please do my friend!

"That's MY idea! I stole it first" ;)

[anerlich]

Everything needs to based on evidence.


Except, apparently, many of your own claims.

[imperialtaichi]

As for Gm Fung Chun , evidentially, his neigong is from the Sam bai fut similar to in all WCK lineage's including ip man WCK.

Sam Bai Fut is very similar to KL22 first move, 豬蹄拜佛手 － Buddha Palm. You can do it fast or slow.

[imperialtaichi]

Since you are the expert of gulao, please educate us, which of your San Sik is a practice of Neigong?

I'll do more than that.

This is the entire movement list:

1.豬蹄拜佛手 － Buddha Palm
2.日字鳳眼捶 － Phoenix Eye Hammer
3.十字四門虎尾捶 － Tiger Tail Hammer
4.撐雞腳 － Pheasant Kick
5.龍掙珠（摽捶） － Dragon Pearl
6.小捻手 － Small Twirling Hands
7.大捻手 － Large Twirling Hands
8.三戰捶 － Three War Hammer
9.大耕手 － Plough Hands
10.大膀挂捶 － Bong and Back Hammer
11.疊掌 － Stack Palms
12.攔撐掌 － Obstruct and Prop
13.勾手切掌 － Hook and Slice
14.烏魚翻泥 － Fish Flip
15.切指擒橋 － Controlling Bridge
16.鶴膀手 － Crane Wing
17.騰馬摽指 － Evade and Finger Dart
18.雙龍出海 － Double Dragon
19.跪馬捶 － Bowing Horse Hammer
20.連環三掌（三板掌） － Three Palm Combo
21.八挂 － Pulling Eight
22..伏虎 － Subdue Tiger

Each movement has specific methods, if I have to expand them fully, I'll be writing a book. So I'll just summarise, section and categorise briefly.

1. Neigong, Yang explosive repulsive power.
2. Static spatial management.
3. Dynamic spatial management.
4. Neigong, related to legs.
5. A technique to counter the physical techniques in 1 to 4.

6 to 10: Power Generating methods relating to twisting and rotation.
11 to 15: "雙手練雙手用", double handed techniques.
16 to 20: Extended techniques

21: Extended spatial management, inverse to structure in 2.
22: Neigong, Yin soft penetrative controlling power.

The more "demonstrative" demonstration of the movement set by my training brother.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QJHBkyB9fc

The more "everyday use" illustration by myself (one morning before I hop on :o sorry about my attire) This is a year old and I have made improvements since then.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPkVTBGyCPM

[GlennR]

I'll do more than that.

This is the entire movement list:

1.豬蹄拜佛手 － Buddha Palm
2.日字鳳眼捶 － Phoenix Eye Hammer
3.十字四門虎尾捶 － Tiger Tail Hammer
4.撐雞腳 － Pheasant Kick
5.龍掙珠（摽捶） － Dragon Pearl
6.小捻手 － Small Twirling Hands
7.大捻手 － Large Twirling Hands
8.三戰捶 － Three War Hammer
9.大耕手 － Plough Hands
10.大膀挂捶 － Bong and Back Hammer
11.疊掌 － Stack Palms
12.攔撐掌 － Obstruct and Prop
13.勾手切掌 － Hook and Slice
14.烏魚翻泥 － Fish Flip
15.切指擒橋 － Controlling Bridge
16.鶴膀手 － Crane Wing
17.騰馬摽指 － Evade and Finger Dart
18.雙龍出海 － Double Dragon
19.跪馬捶 － Bowing Horse Hammer
20.連環三掌（三板掌） － Three Palm Combo
21.八挂 － Pulling Eight
22..伏虎 － Subdue Tiger

Each movement has specific methods, if I have to expand them fully, I'll be writing a book. So I'll just summarise, section and categorise briefly.

1. Neigong, Yang explosive repulsive power.
2. Static spatial management.
3. Dynamic spatial management.
4. Neigong, related to legs.
5. A technique to counter the physical techniques in 1 to 4.

6 to 10: Power Generating methods relating to twisting and rotation.
11 to 15: "雙手練雙手用", double handed techniques.
16 to 20: Extended techniques

21: Extended spatial management, inverse to structure in 2.
22: Neigong, Yin soft penetrative controlling power.

The more "demonstrative" demonstration of the movement set by my training brother.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QJHBkyB9fc

The more "everyday use" illustration by myself (one morning before I hop on :o sorry about my attire) This is a year old and I have made improvements since then.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPkVTBGyCPM

Nice list and a great summary John

[imperialtaichi]

Except, apparently, many of your own claims.

Stop it Anerlich, you are pointing at the elephant in the room! ;)

[guy b.]

I'll do more than that.

This is the entire movement list:

1.豬蹄拜佛手 － Buddha Palm
2.日字鳳眼捶 － Phoenix Eye Hammer
3.十字四門虎尾捶 － Tiger Tail Hammer
4.撐雞腳 － Pheasant Kick
5.龍掙珠（摽捶） － Dragon Pearl
6.小捻手 － Small Twirling Hands
7.大捻手 － Large Twirling Hands
8.三戰捶 － Three War Hammer
9.大耕手 － Plough Hands
10.大膀挂捶 － Bong and Back Hammer
11.疊掌 － Stack Palms
12.攔撐掌 － Obstruct and Prop
13.勾手切掌 － Hook and Slice
14.烏魚翻泥 － Fish Flip
15.切指擒橋 － Controlling Bridge
16.鶴膀手 － Crane Wing
17.騰馬摽指 － Evade and Finger Dart
18.雙龍出海 － Double Dragon
19.跪馬捶 － Bowing Horse Hammer
20.連環三掌（三板掌） － Three Palm Combo
21.八挂 － Pulling Eight
22..伏虎 － Subdue Tiger

Each movement has specific methods, if I have to expand them fully, I'll be writing a book. So I'll just summarise, section and categorise briefly.

1. Neigong, Yang explosive repulsive power.
2. Static spatial management.
3. Dynamic spatial management.
4. Neigong, related to legs.
5. A technique to counter the physical techniques in 1 to 4.

6 to 10: Power Generating methods relating to twisting and rotation.
11 to 15: "雙手練雙手用", double handed techniques.
16 to 20: Extended techniques

21: Extended spatial management, inverse to structure in 2.
22: Neigong, Yin soft penetrative controlling power.

The more "demonstrative" demonstration of the movement set by my training brother.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QJHBkyB9fc

The more "everyday use" illustration by myself (one morning before I hop on :o sorry about my attire) This is a year old and I have made improvements since then.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPkVTBGyCPM

Very interesting, thanks for posting

[Hendrik]

Sam Bai Fut is very similar to KL22 first move, 豬蹄拜佛手 － Buddha Palm. You can do it fast or slow.


John,

In a tcma internal art point of view, kl22 first move is not the class of the wing Chun Sam bai fut of slt where Gm Fung Chun and many of the lineages such as yuen kei San
And snake crane wing chun share.

And Practicing fast or slow is not an indicate of neigong.



Very brief, the Sam bai fut is a neigong of WCK because

1. It activate the six medirians of arm.

2. It has the snake engine of the emei 12 zhuang. Including the five finger trace taiji, a unique finger and medirians activation which Jim Rosalendo has verify with the lineage holder of emei 12 zhuang. Gm Fu.

http://www.emeiqigong.us/lineage/lineage/fu-wei-zhong.html

3. It also develop two basic type Of WCK Jin. Namely, one Jin type is source from the white crane and one from emei 12 zhuang.


The kl22 first move is clearly not in this class.

So, i am saying , there is neigong in gulau WCK. But San Sik for combat application is for a different purpose.

[Hendrik]

I'll do more than that.

This is the entire movement list:

1.豬蹄拜佛手 － Buddha Palm
2.日字鳳眼捶 － Phoenix Eye Hammer
3.十字四門虎尾捶 － Tiger Tail Hammer
4.撐雞腳 － Pheasant Kick
5.龍掙珠（摽捶） － Dragon Pearl
6.小捻手 － Small Twirling Hands
7.大捻手 － Large Twirling Hands
8.三戰捶 － Three War Hammer
9.大耕手 － Plough Hands
10.大膀挂捶 － Bong and Back Hammer
11.疊掌 － Stack Palms
12.攔撐掌 － Obstruct and Prop
13.勾手切掌 － Hook and Slice
14.烏魚翻泥 － Fish Flip
15.切指擒橋 － Controlling Bridge
16.鶴膀手 － Crane Wing
17.騰馬摽指 － Evade and Finger Dart
18.雙龍出海 － Double Dragon
19.跪馬捶 － Bowing Horse Hammer
20.連環三掌（三板掌） － Three Palm Combo
21.八挂 － Pulling Eight
22..伏虎 － Subdue Tiger

Each movement has specific methods, if I have to expand them fully, I'll be writing a book. So I'll just summarise, section and categorise briefly.

1. Neigong, Yang explosive repulsive power.
2. Static spatial management.
3. Dynamic spatial management.
4. Neigong, related to legs.
5. A technique to counter the physical techniques in 1 to 4.

6 to 10: Power Generating methods relating to twisting and rotation.
11 to 15: "雙手練雙手用", double handed techniques.
16 to 20: Extended techniques

21: Extended spatial management, inverse to structure in 2.
22: Neigong, Yin soft penetrative controlling power.

The more "demonstrative" demonstration of the movement set by my training brother.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QJHBkyB9fc

The more "everyday use" illustration by myself (one morning before I hop on :o sorry about my attire) This is a year old and I have made improvements since then.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPkVTBGyCPM



From your videos of kl22
And
This lecture
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiGsla45ISc

IMHO , the signature of your neigong engine in your body is Yang Taiji.

Thus, in this list above the neigong is Yang taiji Am I correct?

[imperialtaichi]

John,

In a tcma internal art point of view, kl22 first move is not the class of the wing Chun Sam bai fut of slt where Gm Fung Chun and many of the lineages such as yuen kei San
And snake crane wing chun share.

And Practicing fast or slow is not an indicate of neigong.



Very brief, the Sam bai fut is a neigong of WCK because

1. It activate the six medirians of arm.

2. It has the snake engine of the emei 12 zhuang. Including the five finger trace taiji, a unique finger and medirians activation which Jim Rosalendo has verify with the lineage holder of emei 12 zhuang. Gm Fu.

http://www.emeiqigong.us/lineage/lineage/fu-wei-zhong.html

3. It also develop two basic type Of WCK Jin. Namely, one Jin type is source from the white crane and one from emei 12 zhuang.


The kl22 first move is clearly not in this class.

So, i am saying , there is neigong in gulau WCK. But San Sik for combat application is for a different purpose.

No point discussing with you Hendrik, because once again, you are "knowing" more about KL22 than I do. Believe whatever you want to believe then.

[imperialtaichi]

No point discussing with you Hendrik, because once again, you are "knowing" more about KL22 than I do. Believe whatever you want to believe then.

Oh, and of course, you would "know" more about GM Fung than Jim too. :rolleyes:

[imperialtaichi]

From your videos of kl22
And
This lecture
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiGsla45ISc

IMHO , the signature of your neigong engine in your body is Yang Taiji.

Thus, in this list above the neigong is Yang taiji Am I correct?

Most people can play both Golf and Tennis.

[Hendrik]

Most people can play both Golf and Tennis.

Body development signature always tell the truth whether it is a golf or tennis player.

[Hendrik]

No point discussing with you Hendrik, because once again, you are "knowing" more about KL22 than I do. Believe whatever you want to believe then.


Technical got nothing to do with believe.

Technical Analysis is an objective act.


I do agree there is no point to discuss because we walk a different path.

[imperialtaichi]

Technical Analysis is an objective act.

it's not very objective when you think you know more about KL22 then a practitioner of KL22.

[Robinhood]

Body development signature always tell the truth whether it is a golf or tennis player.

Henrick, what engine is this guy using ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4Fbl4Oymkw&amp%3bamp%3bfeature=related


Cheers

[Hendrik]

it's not very objective when you think you know more about KL22 then a practitioner of KL22.

That is where we are traveling different path.

Analysis is objective because. it based on data and not on who practice what or who think what.

From the data the kl22 a san Sik doesn't develop neigong as the Sam bai fut of WCK . From you kl22 video also confirm that.

May be you could share with us what is neigong for you.

[Hendrik]

Henrick, what engine is this guy using ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4Fbl4Oymkw&amp%3bamp%3bfeature=related


Cheers


Good question for everyone.

[Robinhood]

Good question for everyone.

To me it is just "internal engine"


Cheers

[Hendrik]

To me it is just "internal engine"


Cheers

Why? Could you please share the reason?

[Robinhood]

Why? Could you please share the reason?

Yes, mind travel around inside body, body follow, to me that is internal.


Cheers

[guy b.]

Looks like broken engine

[Robinhood]

Looks like broken engine


LOL, That's telling.



Cheers

[guy b.]

LOL, That's telling.



Cheers

Hey, it's a great big guy dumping force into a tiny little guy who insists on standing statically with arms out. Chances are he is going to look good.

At best it is reminiscent of systema and other dubious crap

[Robinhood]

Body development signature always tell the truth whether it is a golf or tennis player.

Henrick, I did not see your comment on what engine this is and why?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4Fbl4Oymkw&amp%3bamp%3bfeature=related


Cheers

[Robinhood]

Henrick, I did not see your comment on what engine this is and why?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4Fbl4Oymkw&amp%3bamp%3bfeature=related


Cheers

I guess that you must not be familar with this engine, otherwise you would have responded by now. O well, maybe it is "tiger" engine.



Cheers

[Hendrik]

I guess that you must not be familar with this engine, otherwise you would have responded by now. O well, maybe it is "tiger" engine.



Cheers

Or

I let it for others to have fun.

[Robinhood]

Or

I let it for others to have fun.

I don't see much others making comments ?, if you have no comment on engine, just say so.




Cheers

[nasmedicine]

Not sure, but probably, guru worshiping engine...
Just my opinion... ;)


J, :)

Lol .