Combat vs. Health

[YouKnowWho]

Combat is for others. Health is for yourself. The training can be "opposite". In XingYi 5 elements training, if you train:

- combat, you punch out fast, concentrate on exhale when you punch, and your body chase your hand.
- health, you punch out slow, concentrate on inhale when you pull your punch back, and your body push your hand.

Also trying to argue whether sparring (you may get hit on your head) or heavy bag training (you may hurt your fist) will be good for healh can be endless debating. It's better to separate both in the same discussion. What's your opinion on this?

[-N-]

The death dealing blade becomes the life giving sword.

[donjitsu2]

In XingYi 5 elements training, if you train:...
- health, you will inhale when you punch, and your body push your hand.


I've honestly never heard that one before. I'll have to give it a try...:D

[David Jamieson]

To cultivate Kung Fu within one self, time is given to all aspects of the body and mind.
If you can break an arm, a full understanding would include how to mend it.

Quality of life when in the autumn years is a good thing and within martial arts there are regimens that promote this.

to be a Kung Fu practitioner, it is necessary to develop the full scope throughout your lifetime. Otherwise, it is imbalance to practice only how to fight. That is only one limb of Kung Fu.

It's the limb that draws people in, but it is the other stuff that keeps them in and keeps them supple and alert into their old age.

There is a time for everything. A young man cannot be an old man and cannot have the experiences or needs of an old man. the same is true the other way round, the old man doesn't have the power and strength of the young man, and so must use what power and strength he does have in a more efficient and refined way. The youth can charge and try again, the old man must be correct and for him, he has had the time to practice to create that correctness.

Both are required of the martial artist who wants Kung Fu.

[SPJ]

A big topic.

Some are overlapping.

Some are counter intuitive.

Depending on the function performed.

[Robinhood]

In the old days before guns, you might do it for combat, but people now in general society do it for self improvement and fun or sport.



Cheers

[sanjuro_ronin]

In the old days before guns, you might do it for combat, but people now in general society do it for self improvement and fun or sport.



Cheers

Lets be honest, empty hand combat was ALWAYS in 2nd place to weapons.
Empty handed MA was always a suplimentary training method ( except perhaps in Okinawa when weapons were prohibited and even then the priority was on "improvised weapons over empty hands) and in that regard, nothing has changed.
The fact that one COULD get a "health benefit" was a bonus ( one that at times was ignored when the need for more intense training methods was required).
There are MANY different and arguably better ways to get "healthy" than MA.
I don't know of ANYONE that looked at a MA where people were fighting and though " I'd like to do that just for the healthy aspect of it".
Though, of course, it does become a factor later on.
But lets not delude ourselves as to WHY the vast majority got into MA.

[bawang]

my most important reason for training is to preserve traditional culture and way of thinking. combat and health come second.

[sanjuro_ronin]

my most important reason for training is to preserve traditional culture and way of thinking. combat and health come second.

And what is the tradition and culture of a MA if not combat?
Was any MA developed for any reason other than combat?

[bawang]

And what is the tradition and culture of a MA if not combat?


to not fear death, patriotism and revolutionary ideals

if chinese martial art is number one focused on combat, we would not have forms. and indeed there are rare styles that do not use forms. but the majority tradition put combat second ever since firearms made cold arms obsolete.

[Lucas]

imo if you focus is health and you are not interested in combat or self defense, then the best route to go is qigong/yoga/meditation/healthy diet/ etc. you never even have to punch or kick to be healthy.

[sanjuro_ronin]

to not fear death, patriotism and revolutionary ideals

if chinese martial art is number one focused on combat, we would not have forms. and indeed there are rare styles that do not use forms. but the majority tradition put combat second ever since firearms made cold arms obsolete.

I agree that at one point the combat effectivness was de-prioritized.
Every MA system has forms of some sort but I know what you mean.
I think itis perhaps more correct to state that WHEN forms became the core of the MA system, that was when MA started being LESS about combat or vice-versa ( not that it matters that much).

[bawang]

well for my personal reasons, i feel modernization and dehumanization is negatively impacting chinese society, so to me preserving the mindset is more important than fighting. learning to fight isnt hard in modern times, especially with supplements, scientific information on the human body, and "gear". but learning to be a man of honor is hard in china these days.

once the spirit of a people is lost, it is gone forever. no matter how hard the renaissance martial art guys try, they can never become a real viking or a hoplite, or a swiss mercenary, or a hungarian archer.

[sanjuro_ronin]

well for my personal reasons, i feel modernization and dehumanization is negatively impacting chinese society, so to me preserving the mindset is more important than fighting. learning to fight isnt hard in modern times, especially with supplements, scientific information on the human body, and "gear". but learning to be a man of honor is hard in china these days.

once the spirit of a people is lost, it is gone forever. no matter how hard the renaissance martial art guys try, they can never become a real viking or a hoplite, or a swiss mercenary, or a hungarian archer.

I won't argue about how important the spirit it.
Though I take issues with your "examples" LOL !

[Jimbo]

imo if you focus is health and you are not interested in combat or self defense, then the best route to go is qigong/yoga/meditation/healthy diet/ etc. you never even have to punch or kick to be healthy.

When I began MA, and most of my training life, it was strictly for combat/self-defense. I never, ever thought about health/fitness until several years into my training. Even then, I incorporated lots of supplementary training, such as running, ST, etc. Nowadays I do it mostly because I love doing it.

OTOH, if someone wants to do MA with an emphasis on their health, I see nothing wrong about it. Maybe they don't want to do qigong or yoga, etc. It wouldn't be my first choice, but everyone is different.

[Robinhood]

Lets be honest, empty hand combat was ALWAYS in 2nd place to weapons.
Empty handed MA was always a suplimentary training method ( except perhaps in Okinawa when weapons were prohibited and even then the priority was on "improvised weapons over empty hands) and in that regard, nothing has changed.
The fact that one COULD get a "health benefit" was a bonus ( one that at times was ignored when the need for more intense training methods was required).
There are MANY different and arguably better ways to get "healthy" than MA.
I don't know of ANYONE that looked at a MA where people were fighting and though " I'd like to do that just for the healthy aspect of it".
Though, of course, it does become a factor later on.
But lets not delude ourselves as to WHY the vast majority got into MA.

I did not use the word health, but I think health comes from any exercise anyway that does not cause injury.

If you are constantly injuring yourself you are stupid, IMO.

Before guns you needed to get close to someone to cause injury usually, unless you were throwing something or shooting arrows, but at least you could see them before hand. A sword or knife is just an extension of your hands.


Cheers

[bawang]

I won't argue about how important the spirit it.
Though I take issues with your "examples" LOL !

well man, how many of those western martial art "revivalists" do you think would earnestly kneel before a halberd praying to mary, or kiss the cross of the sword? not as roleplaying, acting, but being?

[sanjuro_ronin]

well man, how many of those western martial art "revivalists" do you think would earnestly kneel before a halberd praying to mary, or kiss the cross of the sword? not as roleplaying, acting, but being?

None of course.
People like the fantasy world BECAUSE it is fantasy.
As we know, the real world was/is far less "glamorous".

[sanjuro_ronin]

When I began MA, and most of my training life, it was strictly for combat/self-defense. I never, ever thought about health/fitness until several years into my training. Even then, I incorporated lots of supplementary training, such as running, ST, etc. Nowadays I do it mostly because I love doing it.

OTOH, if someone wants to do MA with an emphasis on their health, I see nothing wrong about it. Maybe they don't want to do qigong or yoga, etc. It wouldn't be my first choice, but everyone is different.

Lets take this a little further though, shall we?
If a person ONLY wants health benefits, how does one "justify" the violence inherent in EVERY MA.
I mean, from day one you are learning to INFLICT physical harm on another human being.
That is still the core of every MA that closes a hand into a fist and train to drive the fist into someone's face.
Right?

[bawang]

hence forms

[Lee Chiang Po]

I was taught to fight so that I might dominate those around me, and I did benefit healthwise a great deal because it has kept me from taking a terrible beating on a few occasions.
I am opposed to training my body in certain ways however. One is pounding on the heavy bags. I read where the referal shock that comes up the arm to the brain can injure you. The punch drunk fighters were said to have done this to themselves mostly. I don't see forcing the body to do certain things, like splits and other hip manipulation. I don't train my gung fu any more. Haven't in a very good many years. I figured I was as good as I ever would be, so just worked on physical exercises that would keep me limber and toned. No heavy lifting, and no pounding on stuff. I have remained fairly fit this way.

[Jimbo]

Lets take this a little further though, shall we?
If a person ONLY wants health benefits, how does one "justify" the violence inherent in EVERY MA.
I mean, from day one you are learning to INFLICT physical harm on another human being.
That is still the core of every MA that closes a hand into a fist and train to drive the fist into someone's face.
Right?

Agreed.
But that contrast between the physical benefits of the activity and its true purpose may be what attracts the interest of certain people. There are many people who find things like yoga, running, walking, or going to the gym as boring, even if they know they need regular physical activity for their health. Some may end up enjoying the combative aspect of it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Agreed.
But that contrast between the physical benefits of the activity and its true purpose may be what attracts the interest of certain people. There are many people who find things like yoga, running, walking, or going to the gym as boring, even if they know they need regular physical activity for their health. Some may end up enjoying the combative aspect of it.

Sure, but what mindset must one have to be attracted to an activity that centers around causing physical damage to a person and then view it as "healthy"?

[Jimbo]

It would seem that one would have a competitive mindset, like maybe a former HS athlete, etc.? I just know there are people out there who approach MA with the idea of keeping fit.

It's similar to the obsevation that some aspects of MA can be beautiful, or beautifully-done. Given their original purposes, how is that possible? What defines 'beauty'?

[Lucas]

what i have noticed is a lot of guys get into MA initially for combat, as we age and get older and the injuries/old age sets in, we sometimes start to think about and shift towards health.

[sanjuro_ronin]

It would seem that one would have a competitive mindset, like maybe a former HS athlete, etc.? I just know there are people out there who approach MA with the idea of keeping fit.

It's similar to the obsevation that some aspects of MA can be beautiful, or beautifully-done. Given their original purposes, how is that possible? What defines 'beauty'?

So, you believe that a random person, that has never done a MA before, will view a typical MA class and think of the fitness value and give NO THOUGHT to the violence of it and choose that MA over another physcial activity that gives the same fitness option ( if not better) and does NOT involve ANY violence whatsoever?

I ask this because in ALL my years I have never met such a person.
Granted my MA tend to be a bit on the violent side, LOL !

Note: The exception to this is of course Taiji and such.

[sanjuro_ronin]

what i have noticed is a lot of guys get into MA initially for combat, as we age and get older and the injuries/old age sets in, we sometimes start to think about and shift towards health.

Yep, agreed 100%.

[Lucas]

i do it for the wimminz

[sanjuro_ronin]

i do it for the wimminz

http://www.fugly.com/media/IMAGES/Random/bikini-karate-kick.jpg

[Jimbo]

So, you believe that a random person, that has never done a MA before, will view a typical MA class and think of the fitness value and give NO THOUGHT to the violence of it and choose that MA over another physcial activity that gives the same fitness option ( if not better) and does NOT involve ANY violence whatsoever?

I ask this because in ALL my years I have never met such a person.
Granted my MA tend to be a bit on the violent side, LOL !

Note: The exception to this is of course Taiji and such.

I can't say they'd give no thought to it. Some people may just find it more interesting to do. Why do many parents send their kids to kiddie karate/TKD classes with the idea they will learn discipline to help their schoolwork, etc.? Sometimes for them, self-defense is almost mentioned as a by-product of the above-mentioned things.

I've met maybe a couple people who claimed they got into it for fitness. I don't know why they would have chosen it over something else, because my focus was not the same.

Nowadays, what Lucas said is a good deal of my own reasons for training...well, in post 25. :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

I can't say they'd give no thought to it. Some people may just find it more interesting to do. Why do many parents send their kids to kiddie karate/TKD classes with the idea they will learn discipline to help their schoolwork, etc.? Sometimes for them, self-defense is almost mentioned as a by-product of the above-mentioned things.

I've met maybe a couple people who claimed they got into it for fitness. I don't know why they would have chosen it over something else, because my focus was not the same.

Nowadays, what Lucas said is a good deal of my own reasons for training...well, in post 25. :)

I think that, psychologically, there is something there that attracts a person to MA and while they may rationalize it as "fitness", I don;t think that is it.

[Lucas]

there is a strong genetic draw, i believe, for a man to desire power over other men. if we are strong, and can dominate the other men around us, we are desireable mates. we all need to be desireable to women so that we can breed with the best women we can find and ensure strong capable offspring. i think martial arts is a partial outlet for this.

[sanjuro_ronin]

there is a strong genetic draw, i believe, for a man to desire power over other men. if we are strong, and can dominate the other men around us, we are desireable mates. we all need to be desireable to women so that we can breed with the best women we can find and ensure strong capable offspring. i think martial arts is a partial outlet for this.

Very good *golf clap*

[Lucas]

http://weblogs.sun-sentinel.com/news/weather/hurricane/blog/bowing.jpg

[Jimbo]

there is a strong genetic draw, i believe, for a man to desire power over other men. if we are strong, and can dominate the other men around us, we are desireable mates. we all need to be desireable to women so that we can breed with the best women we can find and ensure strong capable offspring. i think martial arts is a partial outlet for this.

Great answer.
Oddly enough, the couple of people I met over the years who started MA for fitness were both women.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Great answer.
Oddly enough, the couple of people I met over the years who started MA for fitness were both women.

I've met a few women in the MA but there were very clear that it was the "self protection" aspect that drawed them and that the fitness was a bonus.

[ShaolinDan]

I don't agree with a lot of this. I think martial arts is awesome for health/fitness. I ran x-country and swam competitively all through high school, and while I was a better runner/swimmer than I am now, my all around fitness has never been better. The diversity of attributes necessary for MA and the diversity of training methods employed makes for a truly well-rounded fitness plan. Better than anything else I've ever tried/seen.

[Jimbo]

I've trained with or just met several women in the MAs whose reason for training was self-defense/the combat aspect, and many of them took to it as good as or better than a lot of men.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I don't agree with a lot of this. I think martial arts is awesome for health/fitness. I ran x-country and swam competitively all through high school, and while I was a better runner/swimmer than I am now, my all around fitness has never been better. The diversity of attributes necessary for MA and the diversity of training methods employed makes for a truly well-rounded fitness plan. Better than anything else I've ever tried/seen.

Don't you do Shaolin-Do ?

[ShaolinDan]

Don't you do Shaolin-Do ?

No. Wushu. ;)

Any fitness program is detrimental if you over-do it. MA is no different. If you take it to a competitive level you destroy your body...if you just worry about yourself you stay fit.

[Robinhood]

So, you believe that a random person, that has never done a MA before, will view a typical MA class and think of the fitness value and give NO THOUGHT to the violence of it and choose that MA over another physcial activity that gives the same fitness option ( if not better) and does NOT involve ANY violence whatsoever?

I ask this because in ALL my years I have never met such a person.
Granted my MA tend to be a bit on the violent side, LOL !

Note: The exception to this is of course Taiji and such.

Yes, they think of keeping themselves healthy by not getting their butt kicked.

I was attracted to the arts by watching "kung fu" series and Bruce Lee movies.

Violence does not attack people to martial arts, staying healthy when violence is around is the attraction , I'm sure there are the sadist or masochist who learn arts to fulfill there sickness , but they are hopefully the minority.


Cheers

Cheers

[YouKnowWho]

Let's see if we only care about "health", what will our training look like? We no longer need to train:

- Fajin (punch on your opponent is bad for his health),
- throws (throw your opponent on the ground is bad for his health),
- lock (put pressure on your opponent's joint is bad his health),
- stretch (high kick is bad for your hip joint),
- hold fist (palm should be good enough),
- sticky (stick on what?),
- follow (follow whom?),
- yield (yield on what?),
- borrow force (no opponent, no force to borrow),
- ...

If the word "opponent" no longer exist, what do we have left in TCMA?

[taai gihk yahn]

There are MANY different and arguably better ways to get "healthy" than MA.
yup


Note: The exception to this is of course Taiji and such.
nope


I don't think taiji is really the best way to get you "healthy"; especially considering that the whole impetus behind its emergence as a "soft" art was due to the Yang family wanting to keep its rice bowl filled - these guys weren't doctors, qigong masters, not much of anything really, except good self-promoters, who retrofitted Chen fist so that the urban weekend-warrior nobility could get their freak on w/out breaking a sweat;

there are much better and more efficient ways to train all of the attributes that taiji supposedly grants; the catch is that it's been pushed in China as being a cultural treasure, and over here it's "foreign ginger"; one main advantage is that it's social; it also stimulates parasympathetics big time, so people get a nice 'mellow buzz" out of it; which is why u c the heath effects of lowering BP and the like; so it's a general sympathetic detonifyer; but it won't do much for muscles strength, flexibility or balance unless u r clinically very weak, stiff or unstable to begin with - them of course u will c an effect;

it's slow weight shifting with a lot of unilateral weight bearing - that can b easily reproduced lots of different ways;

so it's ok, but people need to get way less carried away by it...

[Matthew]

I don't think taiji is really the best way to get you "healthy"; especially considering that the whole impetus behind its emergence as a "soft" art was due to the Yang family wanting to keep its rice bowl filled - these guys weren't doctors, qigong masters, not much of anything really, except good self-promoters, who retrofitted Chen fist so that the urban weekend-warrior nobility could get their freak on w/out breaking a sweat;

Chen family at that time is also as you call "soft" Modern chen was made to appeal to youth

So yang and chen both are soft- yang is uninterrupted continuous flow soft- is that what you mean?

Modern Yang style guys are good promoters nowadays it's for money and giving away certificates more than traditional martial arts.. but I don't see that being that way in Ban Hou or Cheng Fus time

[-N-]

Let's see if we only care about "health", what will our training look like?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abN-m-lgyE4

or maybe

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cuqyuBCK_I

[SPJ]

Let's see if we only care about "health", what will our training look like? We no longer need to train:

- Fajin (punch on your opponent is bad for his health),
- throws (throw your opponent on the ground is bad for his health),
- lock (put pressure on your opponent's joint is bad his health),
- stretch (high kick is bad for your hip joint),
- hold fist (palm should be good enough),
- sticky (stick on what?),
- follow (follow whom?),
- yield (yield on what?),
- borrow force (no opponent, no force to borrow),
- ...

If the word "opponent" no longer exist, what do we have left in TCMA?

Yes. Another big topic

no matter how careful we are such as using pads and mittens etc

injury does occur for us and our practice or sparring partners

--

saftey first saftey in between and safety last

:eek:

[Matthew]

Let's see if we only care about "health", what will our training look like?

Chen Taiji for health
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KxjA8fOJZ0

vs.

Chen Taiji for combat
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KxjA8fOJZ0

Maybe it is a false dichotomy which the original post has- just some illusion perhaps

[xinyidizi]

Doing qigong and meditation is good for health but IMO the fighting and sparring part is necessary for bringing you to a higher level even in health. Only after you start to train the martial aspect you will know how you can really relax your tenseness and how you can move your body naturally the most efficient way. I personally train for both but I try to focus more on the health aspect as I am not a professional fighter and certainly don't want severe injuries in my life because sometimes it gets out of control like yesterday when one of my shixiongs (who used to do sanda professionally) broke part of my tooth. :mad:

[ginosifu]

Combat is for others. Health is for yourself. Also trying to argue whether sparring (you may get hit on your head) or heavy bag training (you may hurt your fist) will be good for healh can be endless debating. It's better to separate both in the same discussion. What's your opinion on this?

YouKnowWho:

Combat VS Health is a double edged sword.

Combat training, self defense, fighting skills etc.. is the skill to be able to defend yourself from bandits, muggers, attackers etc... also known as: Skills to preserve your life.

Health training is the skill of keeping your mind and body healthy, staying fit and in good shape etc.. also known as: Skills to preserve your life.

What is the difference between dying at age 40 from a mugger or dying at age 40 from a heart attack?

Both skills preserve your life. Both should be trained whether done together or seperate.

ginosifu

[mawali]

Chen family at that time is also as you call "soft" Modern chen was made to appeal to youth

So yang and chen both are soft- yang is uninterrupted continuous flow soft- is that what you mean?

Modern Yang style guys are good promoters nowadays it's for money and giving away certificates more than traditional martial arts.. but I don't see that being that way in Ban Hou or Cheng Fus time

Yang is 'soft" always per the training regimen while Chen shi taijiquan is 'soft and 'hard'. The modern impetus on sport is good but the martial aspects is usually downplayed or available if you have enough 'heart' to be beat up.

[RWilson]

To cultivate Kung Fu within one self, time is given to all aspects of the body and mind.
If you can break an arm, a full understanding would include how to mend it.

Quality of life when in the autumn years is a good thing and within martial arts there are regimens that promote this.

to be a Kung Fu practitioner, it is necessary to develop the full scope throughout your lifetime. Otherwise, it is imbalance to practice only how to fight. That is only one limb of Kung Fu.

It's the limb that draws people in, but it is the other stuff that keeps them in and keeps them supple and alert into their old age.

There is a time for everything. A young man cannot be an old man and cannot have the experiences or needs of an old man. the same is true the other way round, the old man doesn't have the power and strength of the young man, and so must use what power and strength he does have in a more efficient and refined way. The youth can charge and try again, the old man must be correct and for him, he has had the time to practice to create that correctness.

Both are required of the martial artist who wants Kung Fu.

It is not possible to become good at both. The people I have seen who talk about learning health and martial arts side by side are great at the healing side. But their definition of "martial art" does not involve learning how to fight. It involves the forms of the system, weapons training for "strength" which is considerered better than lifting weights. Why? I have no idea. "Techniques" derived from form movements because of the belief that forms are a living textbook, two person drills, push hands.....but no sparring. Again, this has been my experience. They are great at massage/acupuncture/talking about training in the different seasons but they are not fighters. The other issue I have with this is they do not come out and say so. You study with them for years before you realize they do not engage in resistance training of any kind beyond basic push hands but talk about "self defense".

[bawang]

You study with them for years before you realize they do not engage in resistance training of any kind beyond basic push hands but talk about "self defense".

thats because they are mentally disturbed. american kung fu advertises power over another person.


chinese martial arts has died out again and becoming obscure around the world. now its back to the way things used to be before bruce lee. theres no need to argue for past mistakes. we can start over again with a clean slate.

[sanjuro_ronin]

yup


nope


I don't think taiji is really the best way to get you "healthy"; especially considering that the whole impetus behind its emergence as a "soft" art was due to the Yang family wanting to keep its rice bowl filled - these guys weren't doctors, qigong masters, not much of anything really, except good self-promoters, who retrofitted Chen fist so that the urban weekend-warrior nobility could get their freak on w/out breaking a sweat;

there are much better and more efficient ways to train all of the attributes that taiji supposedly grants; the catch is that it's been pushed in China as being a cultural treasure, and over here it's "foreign ginger"; one main advantage is that it's social; it also stimulates parasympathetics big time, so people get a nice 'mellow buzz" out of it; which is why u c the heath effects of lowering BP and the like; so it's a general sympathetic detonifyer; but it won't do much for muscles strength, flexibility or balance unless u r clinically very weak, stiff or unstable to begin with - them of course u will c an effect;

it's slow weight shifting with a lot of unilateral weight bearing - that can b easily reproduced lots of different ways;

so it's ok, but people need to get way less carried away by it...

I meant that the vast majority of people are attracted to Taiji because, to them, it is first and foremost ( and to some ONLY) a form of "exercise".
People don't think Taiji and think - fighting.

[xinyidizi]

It involves the forms of the system, weapons training for "strength" which is considerered better than lifting weights. Why? I have no idea.

It's all about efficiency because this way you will train many muscles together which is more time saving and also it will be more focused on the muscles that you are actually going to use more in your martial arts system. In addition you will learn synchronizing and using them together at the same time. However lifting weights also has its own merits as it can focus on certain muscles but I believe it should just take a small part in training in case we train with weapons.


It is not possible to become good at both.

I don't see why. I agree that nowadays most TCMA teachers don't really teach the students how to fight but people who do are also not that hard to find. I know several martial artists in Beijing, Henan, Jiangsu and even a few in Shanghai who do them both. I know or have heard of people from mobs in a small town who have very good backgrounds in traditional martial arts and one of them actually talked to me about the importance of qigong.

[pazman]

The combat vs health debate conceals a huge irony: The people training for combat and utilizing real martial arts training are often far healthier than those who train for "health", mentally as well as physically.

[SPJ]

The idea of combat

is honing on a set of skill and solve your fighting problems.

Health is a whole big different pursuit.

Some are overlapping.

Some are not.

For example, a keen killing or destroying instinct.

mmmm. It may not be healthy.

A sniper trigger finger. It may not be healthy for your finger. It is bigger and faster and with callus or arthritis over time.

etc etc

:eek:

[Hendrik]

Combat is for others. Health is for yourself. The training can be "opposite". In XingYi 5 elements training, if you train:

- combat, you will exhale when you punch, and your body chase your hand.
- health, you will inhale when you punch, and your body push your hand.

Also trying to argue whether sparring (you may get hit on your head) or heavy bag training (you may hurt your fist) will be good for healh can be endless debating. It's better to separate both in the same discussion. What's your opinion on this?

This is totally misleading.

John,

You love to fantasy and mislead people. Hahaha.

[YouKnowWho]

This is totally misleading.

John,

You love to fantasy and mislead people. Hahaha.

Which part is fantasy? Which part is misleading?

[Hendrik]

Which part is fantasy? Which part is misleading?

Every thing in that post.

[YouKnowWho]

Every thing in that post.
This was what I have said.


if you train:

- combat, you will exhale when you punch, and your body chase your hand.
- health, you will inhale when you punch, and your body push your hand.

OK, I may use the wrong words here. Let me correct this as:

if you train:

- combat, you punch out fast, concentrate on exhale when you punch, and your body chase your hand.
- health, you punch out slow, concentrate on inhale when you pull your punch back, and your body push your hand.

Since you read Chinese, you can help me to verify whether my translation is correct or not.

The XingYi system train inhale instead of exhale. In training, you punch out slow with slow exhale. When you pull your punch back, you inhale quickly. It's light out heavy in, light exhile deep inhale, long exhale short inhale.

http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/8059/inhale.jpg

Teacher Tang said,"The XingYi training and combat are different. In training, you use body to push shoulder, shoulder to push elbow, elbow to push hand, It's like water flow from your shoulder to your hand. In combat, you throw your hand out like a whip. You then use elbow to chase hand, shoulder to chase elbow, body to chase shoulder."

http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/8609/bodychasehand.jpg

[Hendrik]

This was what I have said.


OK, I may use the wrong words here. Let me correct this as:

if you train:

- combat, you punch out fast, and your body chase your hand.
- health, you punch out slow, and your body push your hand.

Since you read Chinese, you can help me to verify whether my translation is correct or not.

The XingYi system train inhale instead of exhale. In training, you punch out slow with slow exhale. When you pull your punch back, you inhale quickly. It's light out heavy in, light exhile deep inhale, long exhale short inhale.

http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/8059/inhale.jpg


Teacher Tang said,"The XingYi training and combat are different. In training, you use body to push shoulder, shoulder to push elbow, elbow to push hand, It's like water flow from your shoulder to your hand. In combat, you throw your hand out like a whip. You then use elbow to chase hand, shoulder to chase elbow, body to chase shoulder."

http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/8609/bodychasehand.jpg


If you serious about Xing yi and tcma internal,

Since You know Chinese, this is my sigung who is a known person of Xing yi and fighter. Take a look how combat and health are one thing in china. And what is the reality.

http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_4c04eb7d0100bz24.html


，他說：練武不要怕挨打，不要被吹牛的師傅嚇倒，要有實驗的精神，挨一次打學會一著。如果遇到高手，讓他連 發三次手，你就學會了，以你們的樁步和身上的功夫，不發冷手決打不壞你們，要大膽實踐才能學出真本領。可是 不要打人，要讓人服，不要讓人怕。********* ***********

*** 為了籌備我大軍渡江前線情報站，馬老師與許天民同志在南京廢寢忘食地作秘密工作。當時的保護色是籌備醫院， 常來往者有馮玉祥將軍的老參謀長丘山寧、國民政府安若定、殷震夏，中央國術館長張之江，武術界朱國禎、姜容 樵等，白天人來人往絡繹不絕，我們盡管開門、倒茶，抽空站樁、單操手。電燈一來，就成了我們的世界，老師當 樁，引手、喂手，我們幾個人互相打，有時老師也給我們幾掌，無不應聲而倒，跌出丈外。我們安排的技擊實驗場 摔不壞，碰不傷。老師讓我們自己練，告訴我們一個原則，不管任何動作，都要將氣領順，自腳而腿，而腰上至兩 臂。用手則氣貫手指，用頭則怒髮衝冠，氣到力到方為懂勁，不要用猛力，用猛力則僵化，局部的力量究竟有限， 必須上下完整一氣，力由氣發謂之勁，力由局部肌肉發謂之笨力氣。告訴我們推手的原則要捨己從人，不是吃偏發 勁，能打人者為下乘，能挨打者為上乘；肌肉隆起而硬者為下乘，肉軟如棉者為上乘，練武的主要目的是強健身心 ，做好本職工作，能治病救人，濟貧扶危，不要嘩眾取寵，賣藝求榮。


http://tw.myblog.yahoo.com/onlypower-nonhumanbeing/article?mid=-2&next=1174&l=f&fid=7


This is also my standard of the Yik Kam transform.

[YouKnowWho]

Now we are comparing 唐維祿(1868-1944)'s XingYi vs. 馬禮堂(1903-1989)'s XingYi. We won't be able to draw any conclusion by these comparsion.

http://baike.baidu.com/view/2226892.htm

http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_4c04eb7d0100bz24.html

[Hendrik]

Now we are comparing 唐維祿(1868-1944)'s XingYi vs. 馬禮堂(1903-1989)'s XingYi. We won't be able to draw any conclusion by these comparsion.

http://baike.baidu.com/view/2226892.htm

http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_4c04eb7d0100bz24.html


You are an intereting person.

You don't know Xing yi, and you do not take my sigung and those real Chinese fighters records of factual in 1930 . But have all kind of fantasy theory.


There is no comparison needed Fact is fact.

*** 馬禮堂老師亦名馬步周，自幼愛武術，少年時喜好花拳、長拳，稍長從張占魁先生學形意、八卦，又拜形意名家郭 雲深之高足劉偉祥為師，專攻形意拳，更加刻苦鑽研，尤其在技擊，散打方面，深得形意拳之真諦。
*** 東北淪陷後，馬老師不甘日寇凌辱，隧提倡強種救國之國術革命，在北京西城舊禮王府祠堂，組織華北國術研究會 ，延聘孫祿堂、尚雲祥、劉彩臣、王占恆、鄧雲峰，恆壽山等著名拳師為導師，吸收名大學愛國青年，共同學習， 研究強種救國之武術，因此獲得中央國術館長張之江之之支持，書贈「強種救國」四個大字。




You know, I would not even want to talk sc with you because you are an sc guy. However, you are not a tcma internal guy, so, why play expert on something you don't know?

[Hendrik]

You say the following
-------

- combat, you punch out fast, and your body chase your hand.
- health, you punch out slow, and your body push your hand.

-----


You are totally nuts.

Xing yi core, be it for combat or health , is the Shan ti shih and six harmony Jin.

It is not up for your imagination.

If you don't know, say don't know, instead of read something and playing imagination.

I respect your sc, but sorry, please do not polluting our western friends with fantasy.

[YouKnowWho]

You don't know Xing yi, ... But have all kind of fantasy theory.

You are totally nuts. ... If you don't know, say don't know, instead of read something and playing imagination. ... please do not polluting our western friends with fantasy.
My Xingyi linkage is:

郭雲深(Kuo Yuan-Shen) ->刘二彪子(Liu Er Biao Zi) -> GM 常东昇(Chang Dong Sheng) -> John Wang

Please notice that 刘二彪子 was 馬禮堂's teacher.

F.16. 劉緯祥
劉緯祥（1864 - 1936）， 河北省河間府人。8歲時從劉曉嵐習八極拳，14歲時從形意拳名家郭雲深習形意拳，以後又得名師宋世榮、白西 園兩先生指點。經多年苦修，技遂精湛。以驍勇善鬥，講求實戰稱著武林，時人皆以“劉二彪子”稱之。為近代形 意拳技擊實驗派代表人物之一。馬禮堂的武術老師。

http://shappy.sourceforge.net/yangqg/apfs16.html

My teacher's XingYi:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfKJyd43is0

My XingYi:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efSST_RqE7E

[Hendrik]

http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_4c04eb7d0100bz24.html
http://tw.myblog.yahoo.com/onlypower-nonhumanbeing/article?mid=-2&next=1174&l=f&fid=7

I real hope those of you who has good English translate the above two link I posted .

These way what really happen in tcma internal in 1930 with the top tcma players in china fighters is known. And put these bs imaginary fantasy comparison of combat and health to rest forever.

[YouKnowWho]

I do assume that you have trained XingYi. If your XingYi linkage was from 馬禮堂(Ma Li-Tang). Since 刘二彪子(Liu Er Biao Zi) was 馬禮堂(Ma Li-Tang)'s teacher, we should belong to the same linkage. If 馬禮堂(Ma Li-Tang) is your teacher then we are on the same generation. If not, as far as the XingYi system is concern, you are not in my generation. In either cases, I have no interest to argue with another XingYi guy who belongs to the same linkage as I do.

WC guy may like to argue against another WC guy. XingYi guys should not argue against each other. Again I assume you have trained XingYi even if you have not shown me your XingYi clip yet.

To say "You don't know Xing yi" in a public form is not polite. Besides we have never met, how will you be able to make a statement like that?

[Hendrik]

My Xingyi linkage is:

刘二彪子(Liu Er Biao Zi) -> GM Chang Tung Sheng -> John Wang

Please notice that 刘二彪子 was 馬禮堂's teacher.

F.16. 劉緯祥
劉緯祥（1864 - 1936）， 河北省河間府人。8歲時從劉曉嵐習八極拳，14歲時從形意拳名家郭雲深習形意拳，以後又得名師宋世榮、白西 園兩先生指點。經多年苦修，技遂精湛。以驍勇善鬥，講求實戰稱著武林，時人皆以“劉二彪子”稱之。為近代形 意拳技擊實驗派代表人物之一。馬禮堂的武術老師。

http://shappy.sourceforge.net/yangqg/apfs16.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfKJyd43is0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efSST_RqE7E


John,

As the above it says my sigung Ma li dang is a representative of modern combat Xing yi.

So, what is the point of not taking the two links on ma li dang and what is the fracture happen in 1930 as reference but keep argue?

[Hendrik]

I do assume that you have trained XingYi. If your XingYi linkage was from 馬禮堂(Ma Li-Tang). Since 刘二彪子(Liu Er Biao Zi) was 馬禮堂(Ma Li-Tang)'s teacher, we should belong to the same linkage. If 馬禮堂(Ma Li-Tang) is your teacher then we are on the same generation. If not, as far as the XingYi system is concern, you are not in my generation. In either cases, I have no interest to argue with another XinYi guy who belongs to the same linkage as I do.

WC guy may like to argue against another WC guy. XingYi guys should not argue against each other. Again I assume you have trained XingYi even if you have not shown me your XingYi clip yet.

To say "You don't know Xing yi" in a public form is not polite. Besides we have nerer met, how will you be able to make a statement like that?



If you value GM Liu Xing yi lineage then stop making non fracture Xing yi information which Gm Liu did teach in combat and health.

One must speak with fact . The record of Gm Ma li Dang are in that two links above. That is the facts.

[YouKnowWho]

my sigung Ma li dang ...

Sigung means the teacher's teacher. If Ma li dang is your teacher's teacher, I have to say that in the XingYi linkage, you are one generation below me. Again, same generation or not, I have no interest to argue against you about XingYi who are also in my linkage.

[YouKnowWho]

If you value GM Liu Xing yi lineage then stop making non fracture Xing yi information which Gm Liu did teach in combat and health.

One must speak with fact . The record of Gm Ma li Dang are in that two links above. That is the facts.

I usually don't recommand people to read book but I'll suggest you to read this one. Agree or disagree, you can decide afterward.

http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/202/xy0y.jpg

[Hendrik]

Sigung means the teacher's teacher. If Ma li dang is your teacher's teacher, I have to say that in the XingYi linkage, you are one generation below me. Again, same generation or not, I have no interest to argue against you who are also in my linkage.



I put the two links up above for anyone who want to know the Fact on Xing yi in combat and health , so that they can checkout what is going on in 1930 and my sigung Ma li dang.



Does one have the kung fu as in the above two link or not is the key. Generation and name dropping means nothing in the world of true Kung fu. Not to mention, everyone knows the posiion of Ma li dang in Xing yi. But what is the position of Chang Tung Shen in Xing yi? That is a big question.

From your previous posts, it is very clear that you don't even know how to punch as in Xing yi of the Gm Liu lineage, otherwise you will not post those rediculus post on breath in breath out stuffs.

[YouKnowWho]

But what is the position of Chang Tung Shen in Xing yi? That is a big question.
I saw GM Chang used his XingYi "thunder and lighting strike at the same time" in a challenge fight in Chicage workershop against a boxer back in 1979. I also saw him used XingYi "Hen Chuan" to knock a guy flying 45 degree upward in the Chinese Culture University in Taipei back in 1980.

Here is a picture that he used his "Zhuan Chuan" on a life human being.

http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/8717/changpunch.gif

I know he could use XingYi to fight. What "engine" did he used? I truly don't know and don't care.


Generation and name dropping means nothing in the world of true Kung fu.
Generation may not mean anything to most American, but it's pretty sad to hear any Chinese to say that. :(

[Hendrik]

I saw GM Chang used his XingYi "thunder and lighting strike at the same time" in a challenge fight in Chicage workershop against a boxer back in 1979. I also saw him used XingYi "Hen Chuan" to knock a guy flying 45 degree upward in the Chinese Culture University in Taipei back in 1980.

Here is a picture that he used his "Zhuan Chuan" on a life human being.

http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/8717/changpunch.gif

I know he could use XingYi to fight. What "engine" did he used? I truly don't know and don't care.


Generation may not mean anything to most American, but it's pretty sad to hear any Chinese to say that. :(


Chang is a great master of sc. That is no doubt.

As for how deep his Xing yi is a different story. He was not rank as Ma Li Dang in term of Xing yi. That is a reality. You don't know his engine means you don't inherit that part of his Kung fu.




Any one want to talk generation ranking, even in China, one need to show ones Kung fu. Just cannot talk nonsense in one hand making shame of the lineage and on the other hand pulling generation trying to be upper hand. That is just a behavior of taking advantage of the lineage for ones own Benifit. That Is not wude. Wude means said what one knows and not saying what one doesn't know. Wude means being public minded.

[YouKnowWho]

If you say that you know XingYi, please show me your XingYi clip. It's fair that I have shown you mine and you should show me yours.

Do you know Taiji too? If I show you my Taiji, will you show me your Taiji as well?

[Hendrik]

If you say that you know XingYi, please show me your XingYi clip. It's fair that I have shown you mine and you should show me yours.

The two links of my sigung have said it all.

I reveal the core : Shan ti shi and six harmony Jin , has showed my bottom line.


Any real deal Xing yi guy will know my status from the above.

http://www.360doc.com/content/11/0914/18/3114733_148252489.shtml

[YouKnowWho]

The two links of my sigung have said it all.

I reveal the core : Shan ti shi and six harmony Jin , has showed my bottom line.
Whatever that your teacher's teacher could do, it doesn't mean that you can do. please show me your XingYi clip.

Here is my Taiji clip. It also prove that I have taught Taiji students too. How about show me your Taiji clip?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQu5L02bIvk

I back up everything that I have said by "my own clips". You can't just back up by your teacher's teacher's material.

[Hendrik]

Whatever that your teacher's teacher could do, it doesn't menat that you can do. please show me your XingYi clip.

I don't believe in clip. And no need to show anything .

I know you have never mastering Shan ti shi and six harmony Jin. Your Clip shows.

[Hendrik]

Whatever that your teacher's teacher could do, it doesn't mean that you can do. please show me your XingYi clip.

Here is my Taiji clip. It also prove that I have taught Taiji students too. How about show me your Taiji clip?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQu5L02bIvk

I back up everything that I have said by "my own clips". You can't just back up by your teacher's teacher's material.


That is your way.

I am here to share what is the facts of xingyi so that others are not mislead, not how good I am.

[YouKnowWho]

I know you have never mastering Shan ti shi and six harmony Jin. Your Clip shows.

Agree with you 100% there. My clips suck big time. Do you feel better now?

[Hendrik]

Agree with you 100% there. My clips suck big time. Do you feel better now?

Why should I feel better? Got nothing to do with me.

[YouKnowWho]

I am here to share what is the facts of xingyi so that others are not mislead, not how good I am.
I am here to share information about XingYi too. All of our XingYi systems came from 李洛能(Li Luo Neng).

李洛能(Li Luo Neng) -> 劉奇蘭(Liu Qilan) -------> 李存義(Li Cunyi) ------> 唐維祿(Tang Weilu) ------------> 李仲轩(Li Zhong Xuan)

李洛能(Li Luo Neng) -> 郭雲深(Guo Yun Shen) -> 刘二彪子(Liu Erbiao) -> 常东昇(Chang Dong Sheng) ---> John Wang

李洛能(Li Luo Neng) -> 郭雲深(Guo Yun Shen) -> 刘二彪子(Liu Erbiao) -> 馬禮堂(Ma Li-Tang) ------------> Hendrik's XingYi teacher -> Hendrik


Do you agree with 唐維祿Tang Weilu(1868-1944)'s following statement recorded by his student 李仲轩Li Zhong Xuan (1915-2004)?

唐師講，形意拳練法和打法，迥然不同。比如，練法要 以身推肩，以肩推肘，以肘推手，直至練到川流不息的程度；而打法則先要將手鞭子一樣地甩出去，再以肘追手， 以肩追肘，以身追肩，說到這裡唐師兩手拍了一巴掌，很響，說用身子拍手，就是打法了。

Teacher Tang said, "The XingYi training and combat are different. In training, you use body to push shoulder, shoulder to push elbow, elbow to push hand, It's like water flow from your shoulder to your hand. In combat, you throw your hand out like a whip. You then use elbow to chase hand, shoulder to chase elbow, body to chase shoulder." He then clapped his hands and said, "If you use your body to clap your hand, that's combat".

*** Please notice that when you clap your hands, your hands will move before your elbows. It's not the other way around as the normal Fajin that your elbows push your hands.

http://tw.myblog.yahoo.com/coccino4/article?mid=175

[pazman]

Hendrik, you sound like a typical passive-aggressive "internalist" who has all the answers but feels its beneath him to put his money where is mouth is.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hendrik, you sound like a typical passive-aggressive "internalist" who has all the answers but feels its beneath him to put his money where is mouth is.

Well duh! LOL !

[Hendrik]

I am here to share information about XingYi too. All of our XingYi systems came from 李洛能(Li Luo Neng).

李洛能(Li Luo Neng) -> 劉奇蘭(Liu Qilan) -------> 李存義(Li Cunyi) ------> 唐維祿(Tang Weilu)

李洛能(Li Luo Neng) -> 郭雲深(Guo Yun Shen) -> 刘二彪子(Liu Erbiao) -> 常东昇(Chang Dong Sheng) ---> John Wang

李洛能(Li Luo Neng) -> 郭雲深(Guo Yun Shen) -> 刘二彪子(Liu Erbiao) -> 馬禮堂(Ma Li-Tang) ------------> Hendrik's XingYi teacher -> Hendrik


Do you agree with 唐維祿(Tang Weilu)'s following statement?

唐師講，形意拳練法和打法，迥然不同。比如，練法要 以身推肩，以肩推肘，以肘推手，直至練到川流不息的程度；而打法則先要將手鞭子一樣地甩出去，再以肘追手， 以肩追肘，以身追肩，說到這裡唐師兩手拍了一巴掌，很響，說用身子拍手，就是打法了。

Teacher Tang said, "The XingYi training and combat are different. In training, you use body to push shoulder, shoulder to push elbow, elbow to push hand, It's like water flow from your shoulder to your hand. In combat, you throw your hand out like a whip. You then use elbow to chase hand, shoulder to chase elbow, body to chase shoulder." He then clapped his hands and said, "If you use your body to clap your hand, that's combat".

*** Please notice that when you clap your hands, your hands will move before your elbows. It's not the other way around as the normal Fajin that your elbows push your hands.

http://tw.myblog.yahoo.com/coccino4/article?mid=175


You know.

Mimic movement doesn't mean has the authentic king fu.

As I said again and again, if you are a true Xing yi person, you won't ask this type of questions above.

Forget about Tang. You don't even has the basic from Gm Liu lineage.


Did not you the person who always say fighting fighting? Why here you don't follow the fact and practice record of my sigung Ma li dang and the top fighters of china 1930, but keeping on theories?

[Hendrik]

Hendrik, you sound like a typical passive-aggressive "internalist" who has all the answers but feels its beneath him to put his money where is mouth is.

Who cares what you said, get an authentic Xing yi guy here and as him to judge. Make my day.

[YouKnowWho]

Do you agree with 唐維祿(Tang Weilu)'s following statement?

唐師講，形意拳練法和打法，迥然不同。比如，練法要 以身推肩，以肩推肘，以肘推手，直至練到川流不息的程度；而打法則先要將手鞭子一樣地甩出去， 再以肘追手， 以肩追肘，以身追肩，說到這裡唐師兩手拍了一巴掌，很響，說用身子拍手，就是打法了。

Teacher Tang said, "The XingYi training and combat are different. In training, you use body to push shoulder, shoulder to push elbow, elbow to push hand, It's like water flow from your shoulder to your hand. In combat, you throw your hand out like a whip. You then use elbow to chase hand, shoulder to chase elbow, body to chase shoulder." He then clapped his hands and said, "If you use your body to clap your hand, that's combat".

*** Please notice that when you clap your hands, your hands will move before your elbows. It's not the other way around as the normal Fajin that your elbows push your hands.

[Hendrik]

Do you agree with 唐維祿(Tang Weilu)'s following statement?

唐師講，形意拳練法和打法，迥然不同。比如，練法要 以身推肩，以肩推肘，以肘推手，直至練到川流不息的程度；而打法則先要將手鞭子一樣地甩出去， 再以肘追手， 以肩追肘，以身追肩，說到這裡唐師兩手拍了一巴掌，很響，說用身子拍手，就是打法了。

Teacher Tang said, "The XingYi training and combat are different. In training, you use body to push shoulder, shoulder to push elbow, elbow to push hand, It's like water flow from your shoulder to your hand. In combat, you throw your hand out like a whip. You then use elbow to chase hand, shoulder to chase elbow, body to chase shoulder." He then clapped his hands and said, "If you use your body to clap your hand, that's combat".

*** Please notice that when you clap your hands, your hands will move before your elbows. It's not the other way around as the normal Fajin that your elbows push your hands.


Since you claim to be the descendent of Gm Liu, and Gm Liu is fighter, didn't Chang Tung Shen taught you the basic?

[Hendrik]

Do you agree with 唐維祿(Tang Weilu)'s following statement?

唐師講，形意拳練法和打法，迥然不同。比如，練法要 以身推肩，以肩推肘，以肘推手，直至練到川流不息的程度；而打法則先要將手鞭子一樣地甩出去， 再以肘追手， 以肩追肘，以身追肩，說到這裡唐師兩手拍了一巴掌，很響，說用身子拍手，就是打法了。

Teacher Tang said, "The XingYi training and combat are different. In training, you use body to push shoulder, shoulder to push elbow, elbow to push hand, It's like water flow from your shoulder to your hand. In combat, you throw your hand out like a whip. You then use elbow to chase hand, shoulder to chase elbow, body to chase shoulder." He then clapped his hands and said, "If you use your body to clap your hand, that's combat".

*** Please notice that when you clap your hands, your hands will move before your elbows. It's not the other way around as the normal Fajin that your elbows push your hands.

You don't even translate what Tang's idea correctly.


Tang has never said

- combat, you punch out fast, and your body chase your hand.
- health, you punch out slow, and your body push your hand.


Also you don't know the three types of joints handling of general internal art. Otherwise you will know what Tang is talking about.

[YouKnowWho]

You don't even translate what Tang's idea correctly.


Tang has never said

- combat, you punch out fast, and your body chase your hand.
- health, you punch out slow, and your body push your hand.
You understand Chiness. You can correct my translatiuon then.

Do you agree that

打法 - combat,
練法 - solo training?

Since "health" person only train solo, that make 練法 = solo training = health.

[YouKnowWho]

Also you don't know ...
Please don't avoid my question.

Do you agree with 唐維祿(Tang Weilu)'s statement? If my translation is wrong, please provide your correct translation.

唐師講，形意拳練法和打法，迥然不同。比如，練法要 以身推肩，以肩推肘，以肘推手，直至練到川流不息的程度；而打法則先要將手鞭子一樣地甩出去， 再以肘追手， 以肩追肘，以身追肩，說到這裡唐師兩手拍了一巴掌，很響，說用身子拍手，就是打法了。

Teacher Tang said, "The XingYi training and combat are different. In training, you use body to push shoulder, shoulder to push elbow, elbow to push hand, It's like water flow from your shoulder to your hand. In combat, you throw your hand out like a whip. You then use elbow to chase hand, shoulder to chase elbow, body to chase shoulder." He then clapped his hands and said, "If you use your body to clap your hand, that's combat".

*** Please notice that when you clap your hands, your hands will move before your elbows. It's not the other way around as the normal Fajin that your elbows push your hands.

[Hendrik]

You understand Chiness. You can correct my translatiuon then.

Do you agree that

打法 - combat,
練法 - solo training?

Since "health" person only train solo, that make 練法 = solo training = health.


It is more then Chinese, it also involve the three basic type of joints handling methods for three type of Jins.

Here Tang says nothing on what you address. Of combat , health. Solo.

[YouKnowWho]

It is more then Chinese, it also involve the three basic type of joints handling methods for three type of Jins.

Here Tang says nothing on what you address. Of combat , health. Solo.
So you don't agree with my translation as:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
打法 - combat,
練法 - solo training?

Since "health" person only train solo, that make 練法 = solo training = health.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What do you mean "It is more then Chinese"? Please point to me where did Tang mentioned about "three type of Jins". I can't translate anything which is not there.

Here is the original source.

http://tw.myblog.yahoo.com/coccino4/article?mid=175

[SPJ]

Practice drills are specific for honing on development of certain attributes.

But when you use them, your postures may not be exactly the same.

Da fa or yong fa.

hitting methods or use methods

are varied from practice methods.

lian fa.

:)

[Hendrik]

So you don't agree with my translation as:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
打法 - combat,
練法 - solo training?

Since "health" person only train solo, that make 練法 = solo training = health.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What do you mean "It is more then Chinese"? Please point to me where did Tang mentioned about "three type of Jins". I can't translate anything which is not there.

Here is the original source.

http://tw.myblog.yahoo.com/coccino4/article?mid=175



Why don't you do your home work first before you get into all kinds of ideas?
Didn't you the guy stress on practical fighting? What is a point to speculate something one has no back ground and or experience?

Not to mention google something is just a cyber game .

[bawang]

Hendrik, you sound like a typical passive-aggressive "internalist" who has all the answers but feels its beneath him to put his money where is mouth is.

he does wing chun

enough said

[taai gihk yahn]

What is a point to speculate something one has no back ground and or experience?
oh, it's been so long since we've had some good spectacubation here!

[YouKnowWho]

Why don't you do your home work first before you get into all kinds of ideas?
Didn't you the guy stress on practical fighting? What is a point to speculate something one has no back ground and or experience?

Not to mention google something is just a cyber game .
Please don't avoid my question. Do you agree with 唐維祿(Tang Weilu)'s statement?

Teacher Tang said, "The XingYi training and combat are different. In training, you use body to push shoulder, shoulder to push elbow, elbow to push hand, It's like water flow from your shoulder to your hand. In combat, you throw your hand out like a whip. You then use elbow to chase hand, shoulder to chase elbow, body to chase shoulder." He then clapped his hands and said, "If you use your body to clap your hand, that's combat".

[SIFU RON]

to cultivate kung fu within one self, time is given to all aspects of the body and mind.
If you can break an arm, a full understanding would include how to mend it.

Quality of life when in the autumn years is a good thing and within martial arts there are regimens that promote this.

To be a kung fu practitioner, it is necessary to develop the full scope throughout your lifetime. Otherwise, it is imbalance to practice only how to fight. That is only one limb of kung fu.

It's the limb that draws people in, but it is the other stuff that keeps them in and keeps them supple and alert into their old age.

There is a time for everything. A young man cannot be an old man and cannot have the experiences or needs of an old man. The same is true the other way round, the old man doesn't have the power and strength of the young man, and so must use what power and strength he does have in a more efficient and refined way. The youth can charge and try again, the old man must be correct and for him, he has had the time to practice to create that correctness.

Both are required of the martial artist who wants kung fu.

well put thank you

[SPJ]

Please don't avoid my question. Do you agree with 唐維祿(Tang Weilu)'s statement?

Teacher Tang said, "The XingYi training and combat are different. In training, you use body to push shoulder, shoulder to push elbow, elbow to push hand, It's like water flow from your shoulder to your hand. In combat, you throw your hand out like a whip. You then use elbow to chase hand, shoulder to chase elbow, body to chase shoulder." He then clapped his hands and said, "If you use your body to clap your hand, that's combat".

It is difficult to translate.

Use your body to fight/hit/clap. Agreed.

"When in use, we throw our hand out like a whip.

Hand methods are followed by elbow methods.

--- "

These principles exist in all northern styles.

Such as tong bei and ba ji.

hurried or followed is better translation then chase.

me think.

;)

[Hendrik]

Please don't avoid my question.

Do you agree with 唐維祿(Tang Weilu)'s statement? If my translation is wrong, please provide your correct translation.

唐師講，形意拳練法和打法，迥然不同。比如，練法要 以身推肩，以肩推肘，以肘推手，直至練到川流不息的程度；而打法則先要將手鞭子一樣地甩出去， 再以肘追手， 以肩追肘，以身追肩，說到這裡唐師兩手拍了一巴掌，很響，說用身子拍手，就是打法了。

Teacher Tang said, "The XingYi training and combat are different. In training, you use body to push shoulder, shoulder to push elbow, elbow to push hand, It's like water flow from your shoulder to your hand. In combat, you throw your hand out like a whip. You then use elbow to chase hand, shoulder to chase elbow, body to chase shoulder." He then clapped his hands and said, "If you use your body to clap your hand, that's combat".


*** Please notice that when you clap your hands, your hands will move before your elbows. It's not the other way around as the normal Fajin that your elbows push your hands.


Tang is only presenting one out of three type of scenario.

[Scott R. Brown]

Just a heads up here!

Hendrik has a long history here twisting what others say, and never really defending his own position with reason. He constantly defers to his imaginary masters but cannot defend his positions with any true personal experience, which is the sign of someone who has actually learned something. If you can take the experiences you have had first hand and describe them in your own words, you have some learning. If all you can do is repeat what others have said or taught you are still a beginner.

Hendrik is a beginner who fancies himself an expert.

He is a nut case. It is best to interact with him for the fun of it, but don't expect to get a reasonable conversation out of him unless you are willing to lick his balls!

He likes that and will only respect those who lick him!

[sanjuro_ronin]

Just a heads up here!

Hendrik has a long history here twisting what others say, and never really defending his own position with reason. He constantly defers to his imaginary masters but cannot defend his positions with any true personal experience, which is the sign of someone who has actually learned something. If you can take the experiences you have had first hand and describe them in your own words, you have some learning. If all you can do is repeat what others have said or taught you are still a beginner.

Hendrik is a beginner who fancies himself an expert.

He is a nut case. It is best to interact with him for the fun of it, but don't expect to get a reasonable conversation out of him unless you are willing to lick his balls!

He likes that and will only respect those who lick him!

I think you are being a bit harsh on Hendrick.
I think he is a byproduct of his "world view".
He believes in theory over practice.
He believes that the combat aspect of WC is inferior to the "theoretical aspect" of it.
He believes that it is in understanding 19th century poems and writings about WC, that one can "unlock" the secrets of WC and not by actually fighting with WC as the developers of WC did and told their students to do.
In short, Hendrick has a set of beliefs that he holds fast to, without testing in a practical environment ( VS someone that is trying to knock his block off), and truly believes that is the way WC should be.

[David Jamieson]

dude, he's a fecking troll. lol :)

He's just not so bad that he can't be dealt with in regular discourse.
Plus he stays in troll land (the WC board) for the most part.

That desolate wasteland of WC forums where all that is heard is constant bickering about various speculation and conjecture and continual props to other speculators and non-fighters who were so bad ass they didn't need to stoop to actually proving that they had the skills they claimed to have...


but I digress... :p

[Scott R. Brown]

I think you are being a bit harsh on Hendrick.
I think he is a byproduct of his "world view".
He believes in theory over practice.
He believes that the combat aspect of WC is inferior to the "theoretical aspect" of it.
He believes that it is in understanding 19th century poems and writings about WC, that one can "unlock" the secrets of WC and not by actually fighting with WC as the developers of WC did and told their students to do.
In short, Hendrick has a set of beliefs that he holds fast to, without testing in a practical environment ( VS someone that is trying to knock his block off), and truly believes that is the way WC should be.

I would NEVER be too hard on anyone! I am way to nice for that!:eek:

I have had many a "discussion" with Hendrik about stuff he knows very little about, but thinks he does, I would say he is as dumb as a door, but I have seen some pretty smart doors in my life.

It is always entertaining to watch him try to muddle through a discussion though!

[Scott R. Brown]

dude, he's a fecking troll. lol :)

He's just not so bad that he can't be dealt with in regular discourse.
Plus he stays in troll land (the WC board) for the most part.

That desolate wasteland of WC forums where all that is heard is constant bickering about various speculation and conjecture and continual props to other speculators and non-fighters who were so bad ass they didn't need to stoop to actually proving that they had the skills they claimed to have...


but I digress... :p

Hold ON!! WAIT, WAIT, WAIT!!! I am getting dizzy!!! Hyperventilating!!!!!!!:eek::eek:

Okay......I feel better now!!! :p

[bawang]

He's just not so bad that he can't be dealt with in regular discourse.


first he was a red boat wing chun master, then he was a emei snake boxing master, then he became expert in yiquan and white crane, now he has the true teachings of xingyiquan.

one time he even claimed to know shaolin kung fu, all he typed were copied from the shaolin 72 secret arts pdf.




It is always entertaining to watch him try to muddle through a discussion though!

he likes to copy and paste chinese articles and claiming he is typing in chinese, when he doesnt speak chinese. he is a 40 year old malaysian or singaporan chinese that doesnt speak chinese, a "potato eater"

[Scott R. Brown]

first he was a red boat wing chun master, then he was a emei snake boxing master, then he became expert in yiquan and white crane, now he has the true teachings of xingyiquan.

one time he even claimed to know shaolin kung fu, all he typed were copied from the shaolin 72 secret arts pdf.



he likes to copy and paste chinese articles and claiming he is typing in chinese, when he doesnt speak chinese. he is a 40 year old malaysian or singaporan chinese that doesnt speak chinese, a "potato eater"

Like I said, he is a nut case! He has serious problems discerning reality from fantasy. And isn't able to express an original thought. He does do very well repeating the thoughts of obscure nobodies and acting superior to everyone else though.

[Lucas]

He does do very well repeating the thoughts of obscure nobodies and acting superior to everyone else though.

so hes a republican? :eek:

[bawang]

republicans have honor. they bomb brown people to heavy metal music. this guy achieved nothing in his life.

[taai gihk yahn]

ahhhh - now that's much better; lots and lots of spectacubation going on here; my cup runneth over...

[Scott R. Brown]

ahhhh - now that's much better; lots and lots of spectacubation going on here; my cup runneth over...

One thing Hendrik does well is get everyone to talk SH!T about him!

Not me of course.......everything I say is the God's Honest Truth!!!!

[Scott R. Brown]

so hes a republican? :eek:

I think you have republicans confused with liberals/progressives, they are the ones that don't want anyone to drink soda pop because fat people are fat, therefore EVERYONE should be prohibited from drinking soda pop and eating popcorn in movie theaters! :p

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think you have republicans confused with liberals/progressives, they are the ones that don't want anyone to drink soda pop because fat people are fat, therefore EVERYONE should be prohibited from drinking soda pop and eating popcorn in movie theaters! :p

Scott is right, republicans are the ones that shoot people with shotguns and then those people apologize for getting in the way of the shotgun blast.
If they know what's good for them !!!

[taai gihk yahn]

Not me of course.......everything I say is the God's Honest Truth!!!!

Spectacubate, spectacubate, spectacubate!!!

[David Jamieson]

first he was a red boat wing chun master, then he was a emei snake boxing master, then he became expert in yiquan and white crane, now he has the true teachings of xingyiquan.

one time he even claimed to know shaolin kung fu, all he typed were copied from the shaolin 72 secret arts pdf.



he likes to copy and paste chinese articles and claiming he is typing in chinese, when he doesnt speak chinese. he is a 40 year old malaysian or singaporan chinese that doesnt speak chinese, a "potato eater"

A dollar says he's a chubby little pale kid in his mom's basement somewhere in Jersey.

2 dollars say he's a skinny as a post Asian dude with a crappy factory job and nothing has touched his genitals except his own hand for 25 years!

3 dollars says it's Gene.

4 dollars says it's Sanjuro Ronin

5 dollars says it's Dave Ross in alter ego mode.

These are the odds.

[YouKnowWho]

There are many things that bother me when discussing with Hendrik. He doesn't want to talk about "HIMSELF":

- I don't believe in clip. And no need to show anything.

but he keeps put "ME" down such as:

- You love to fantasy and mislead people. Hahaha.
- You are totally nuts.
- If you don't know, say don't know, instead of read something and playing imagination.
- You don't know his engine means you don't inherit that part of his Kung fu.
- You don't even has the basic.
- you don't know ...
- Mimic movement doesn't mean has the authentic king fu.
- if you are a true Xing yi person, you won't ask this type of questions above.
- but keeping on theories.
- I know you have never mastering Shan ti shi and six harmony Jin. Your Clip shows.
- didn't Chang Tung Shen taught you the basic?
- you don't know the three types of joints handling of general internal art.
- you are not a tcma internal guy, so, why play expert on something you don't know?
- ...

I hope oneday Hendrik and I will meet face to face. After all we are only 245 miles apart (4 hours driving distance). I do need to find a sparring partner badly in Shell Beach, California.

[Lucas]

There are many things that bother me when discussing with Hendrik. He doesn't want to talk about "HIMSELF":

- I don't believe in clip. And no need to show anything.

but he keeps put "ME" down such as:

- You love to fantasy and mislead people. Hahaha.
- You are totally nuts.
- If you don't know, say don't know, instead of read something and playing imagination.
- You don't know his engine means you don't inherit that part of his Kung fu.
- You don't even has the basic.
- you don't know ...
- Mimic movement doesn't mean has the authentic king fu.
- if you are a true Xing yi person, you won't ask this type of questions above.
- but keeping on theories.
- I know you have never mastering Shan ti shi and six harmony Jin. Your Clip shows.
- didn't Chang Tung Shen taught you the basic?
- you don't know the three types of joints handling of general internal art.
- you are not a tcma internal guy, so, why play expert on something you don't know?
- ...

I hope oneday Hendrik and I will meet face to face. After all we are only 245 miles apart (4 hours driving distance). I do need to find a sparring partner badly in Shell Beach, California.

he will never want to meet you because he is afraid of you. because you actually know how to fight. not that you want to beat him up, but he will be worried that you will.

[Hendrik]

Tang is only presenting one out of three type of scenario.

John,

Here I have reply you.

[Hendrik]

he will never want to meet you because he is afraid of you. because you actually know how to fight. not that you want to beat him up, but he will be worried that you will.

Great view!

[bawang]

I hope oneday Hendrik and I will meet face to face. After all we are only 245 miles apart (4 hours driving distance). I do need to find a sparring partner badly in Shell Beach, California.

there is nothing to gain from meeting those kind of people in real life. when you see them in real life you see how pathetic they are.

in real life either they will keep their head down and be ashamed, or they will try to hurt you by surprise.


if someone is weak and feels powerless in life, that is ok. if they train hard and keep a positive mind, in time they will have success. but people like hendrik wallow in their own weakness and powerlessness like a pig wallowing in its own feces.

[Hendrik]

there is nothing to gain from meeting those kind of people in real life. when you see them in real life you see how pathetic they are.

in real life either they will keep their head down and be ashamed, or they will try to hurt you by surprise.


if someone is weak and feels powerless in life, that is ok. if they train hard and keep a positive mind, in time they will have success. but people like hendrik wallow in their own weakness and powerlessness like a pig wallowing in its own feces.

Great opinion.

[Hendrik]

There are many things that bother me when discussing with Hendrik. He doesn't want to talk about "HIMSELF":

- I don't believe in clip. And no need to show anything.

but he keeps put "ME" down such as:

- You love to fantasy and mislead people. Hahaha.
- You are totally nuts.
- If you don't know, say don't know, instead of read something and playing imagination.
- You don't know his engine means you don't inherit that part of his Kung fu.
- You don't even has the basic.
- you don't know ...
- Mimic movement doesn't mean has the authentic king fu.
- if you are a true Xing yi person, you won't ask this type of questions above.
- but keeping on theories.
- I know you have never mastering Shan ti shi and six harmony Jin. Your Clip shows.
- didn't Chang Tung Shen taught you the basic?
- you don't know the three types of joints handling of general internal art.
- you are not a tcma internal guy, so, why play expert on something you don't know?
- ...

I hope oneday Hendrik and I will meet face to face. After all we are only 245 miles apart (4 hours driving distance). I do need to find a sparring partner badly in Shell Beach, California.


We certainly live in a different world.


You see, you claim to be a high generation Xing yi guy having the same lineage in Xing yi as me.

But then you don't know about the Kung fu from the Shan ti shi and six harmony Jin which is a core.

Then, you take Tangs writing out which is 1/3 of the story from somewhere trying to make that the ultimate teaching of xing yi. Why not you brought up how 半步崩拳 which is in the lineage is done. See if Tang theory fit in?


I expect the Xing yi guys from the same lineage of Xing yi has to know the basic above .

you trying to link Tangs saying with health and combat. That makes me extremely curious, do you do Xing yi? Or you just mimic postures like in the movie? And called that you know Xing yi and have a high generation ranking?

[taai gihk yahn]

A dollar says he's a chubby little pale kid in his mom's basement somewhere in Jersey.

2 dollars say he's a skinny as a post Asian dude with a crappy factory job and nothing has touched his genitals except his own hand for 25 years!

3 dollars says it's Gene.

4 dollars says it's Sanjuro Ronin

5 dollars says it's Dave Ross in alter ego mode.

These are the odds.

Hendrick:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mP3h8mEdFTg&feature=plcp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKWVOc2HOig&feature=relmfu

[SPJ]

In response to the first post:

focus, focus and focus or foci.

If you are interested in practice for health, you would emphasize the health development aspects and drop fighting altogether.

If you are interested in practice for combat, you have to be healthy or fit first.

On top of that, you develop your fighting skills and tactics and strategy.

It is always a good idea to say

what you are doing or foci are.

Discuss accordingly.

Agreed.

:cool:

[YouKnowWho]

We certainly live in a different world.

You see, you claim to be a high generation Xing yi guy having the same lineage in Xing yi as me.

But then you don't know about the Kung fu from the Shan ti shi and six harmony Jin which is a core.

Then, you take Tangs writing out which is 1/3 of the story from somewhere trying to make that the ultimate teaching of xing yi. Why not you brought up how 半步崩拳 which is in the lineage is done. See if Tang theory fit in?

I expect the Xing yi guys from the same lineage of Xing yi has to know the basic above .

you trying to link Tangs saying with health and combat. That makes me extremely curious, do you do Xing yi? Or you just mimic postures like in the movie? And called that you know Xing yi and have a high generation ranking?

You don't want to talk about yourself but you keep talking about me. Why?

May I ask who your XingYi teacher is?

Why don't you put up your XingYi clip and let everybody in this forum to see how good you are in the XingYi system?

[Hendrik]

You don't want to talk about yourself but you keep talking about me. Why?

May I ask who your XingYi teacher is?

Why don't you put up your XingYi clip and let everybody in this forum to see how good you are in the XingYi system?



A,

I talk about your presentations of Xing Yi instead of you.


There is no different between a clip or a sentence, those who knows knows those who dont dont.


I posts link of my Sigung Ma li-Dang who is a representative of Xing Yi . I am not the GM. if others want to learn Xing Yi learn form Ma Li-Dang. not me.

What I have posts are just basic anyone who do Xing Yi expect to know.



B,

Since you practice



李洛能(Li Luo Neng) -> 郭雲深(Guo Yun Shen) -> 刘二彪子(Liu Erbiao) -> 常东昇(Chang Dong Sheng) ---> John Wang


lineage and have high level in generation ranking then me.


why are you using the following lineage information

李洛能(Li Luo Neng) -> 劉奇蘭(Liu Qilan) -------> 李存義(Li Cunyi) ------> 唐維祿(Tang Weilu) ------------> 李仲轩(Li Zhong Xuan)


of Tang Weilu's theory as reference for your Xing Yi system


intead of what was thought in 郭雲深(Guo Yun Shen) lineage?


Does make any sense for me. but may be you can explain why is that you dont use your own system but using googling theory for Xing Yi system from other lineage and doesnt recognize your own lineage teaching?

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1174370&postcount=62

[Scott R. Brown]

Hendrik's method of discussion and martial arts training is, insult, duck, evade, redirect, ignore, then slink!

[Hendrik]

Hendrik's method of discussion and martial arts training is, insult, duck, evade, redirect, ignore, then slink!

Great view!

[Scott R. Brown]

Great view!

Your opinion is worthless!

Of course my views are great!! Everyone can see that! No one needs you to state the obvious!

Having the obvious pointed out by a mental and emotional midget reeks of the need for attention. Supplying you with nurturing attention was your mommy's job, not ours.

[Hendrik]

Your opinion is worthless!

Of course my views are great!! Everyone can see that! No one needs you to state the obvious!

Having the obvious pointed out by a mental and emotional midget reeks of the need for attention. Supplying you with nurturing attention was your mommy's job, not ours.

Excellent !

[YouKnowWho]

why are you using the following lineage information

李洛能(Li Luo Neng) -> 劉奇蘭(Liu Qilan) -------> 李存義(Li Cunyi) ------> 唐維祿(Tang Weilu) ------------> 李仲轩(Li Zhong Xuan)

of Tang Weilu's theory as reference for your Xing Yi system

intead of what was thought in 郭雲深(Guo Yun Shen) lineage?
You still have not make yourself clear about which part of 唐維祿(Tang Weilu)'s statement that you don't agree with.

My teacher had never taught me how to train XingTi for health. I'm also not interest in "XingYi for health". When I read 唐維祿(Tang Weilu)'s student's 李仲轩(Li Zhong Xuan)'s book (I read too),

http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/9801/xy0d.jpg

I was interest in his statement "The XingYi training and combat are different". In the past many years, I have believed that "training should be the same as fighting". I no longer train forms but drills. My solo drills are exactly the same as my fighting drills. I believe this way, I can kill 2 birds with 1 stone. After I had seen 唐維祿(Tang Weilu)'s statement, I started to double check myself whether "To kill 2 birds with 1 stone" is still a good idea. Onething that I have found out is my new approach may not push myself hard enough.

Do I train as 唐維祿(Tang Weilu) suggested? No! My training is still with combat speed and combat force. I'll never slow down my training speed until I'm too old to move. Why did I present 唐維祿(Tang Weilu) method? Because he is one generation above me and I respect his opinion as far as the XingYi system is concern.

[SPJ]

You still have not make yourself clear about which part of 唐維祿(Tang Weilu)'s statement that you don't agree with.

My teacher had never taught me how to train XingTi for health. I'm also not interest in "XingYi for health". When I read 唐維祿(Tang Weilu)'s student's 李仲轩(Li Zhong Xuan)'s book (I read too),

http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/9801/xy0d.jpg

I was interest in his statement "The XingYi training and combat are different". In the past many years, I have believed that "training should be the same as fighting". I no longer train forms but drills. My solo drills are exactly the same as my fighting drills. I believe this way, I can kill 2 birds with 1 stone. After I had seen 唐維祿(Tang Weilu)'s statement, I started to double check myself whether "To kill 2 birds with 1 stone" is still a good idea. Onething that I have found out is my new approach may not push myself hard enough.

Do I train as 唐維祿(Tang Weilu) suggested? No! My training is still with combat speed and combat force. I'll never slow down my training speed until I'm too old to move. Why did I present 唐維祿(Tang Weilu) method? Because he is one generation above me and I respect his opinion as far as the XingYi system is concern.

Xing yi santi shi is for training. When in use, we are flexible. Santi may not be good to move about.

In Ba ji, we train square stances. But in use, there are no fixed stances.

No horse no bow stances. Bu gong bu ma.

Etc.

:)

[Hendrik]

You still have not make yourself clear about which part of 唐維祿(Tang Weilu)'s statement that you don't agree with.-------

i have made it clear but you don't like the answer.




My teacher had never taught me how to train XingTi for health. I'm also not interest in "XingYi for health". --------


I am talking Shan ti shi and six harmony Jin which is the basic core of Guo lineage Xing yi you claim to have high rank in.






When I read 唐維祿(Tang Weilu)'s student's 李仲轩(Li Zhong Xuan)'s book (I read too),

http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/9801/xy0d.jpg

I was interest in his statement "The XingYi training and combat are different". In the past many years, I have believed that "training should be the same as fighting". I no longer train forms but drills. My solo drills are exactly the same as my fighting drills. I believe this way, I can kill 2 birds with 1 stone. After I had seen 唐維祿(Tang Weilu)'s statement, I started to double check myself whether "To kill 2 birds with 1 stone" is still a good idea. Onething that I have found out is my new approach may not push myself hard enough. --------------

That is because you don't know what you are training. And you have not develop Kung fu of xing yi in combat and internal strength with your traning. Otherwise you wouldn't get into doubting.



Do I train as 唐維祿(Tang Weilu) suggested? No! My training is still with combat speed and combat force. I'll never slow down my training speed until I'm too old to move. Why did I present 唐維祿(Tang Weilu) method? Because he is one generation above me and I respect his opinion as far as the XingYi system is concern.------

Why dont you find out what is the Guo lineage Xing yi core training before anything?

[Hendrik]

Xing yi santi shi is for training. When in use, we are flexible. Santi may not be good to move about.

In Ba ji, we train square stances. But in use, there are no fixed stances.

No horse no bow stances. Bu gong bu ma.

Etc.

:)

In Guo linage , santi shi develop both combat , internal strength or six harmony jin, and health.

There are three types of striking result using different joints handling. If one has the Kung fu.
There is the whip result, the bunker bomb result, the clear path bomb result.

Tang is only talking about whip result.

Guo's 半步崩拳打天下clearly shows the reality is not as simple as Tangs theory. That just shows John doesnt have the Kung fu develop. So he is confusing on what Tang says.


I am not trying to pick at John, but if he doesn't have the core basic of his lineage, I really don't know what he is traning in Xing yi. John using what he doesn't know to address the combat versus health is just misleading the public. He is not a Xing yi guy but an amateur without Xing yi 真傳 by evidence. so how can he make all kinds of Xing yi saying on Xing yi combat and health?



As the following,


*** 三体式

*** 此为行意拳之桩法。行意为内家拳，相传始自岳武穆，有可考者则为清代山西省戴龙邦。河北省深县李洛能先生师 侍戴先生得到行意拳之真谛，与人较技，不论技术之高深无不应声而倒，所以人称“神拳李老农”，在武术技击方 面大放异彩，故后人有内家拳之称。李先生传郭云深、刘奇兰、车毅斋、宋世德、张林德、宋世荣、白西园等十数 人。郭云深传刘纬祥先生，

余动年师侍张占魁先生，站桩未下功夫，30年代从刘先生后，与同学谢一飞、刘书琴等较技辄败北 ，

先生笑日：练拳不站桩，吃饭没有仓，三劈不如一站，站桩是行意拳的基本功，你要从头学起。

从此我才下功夫练站桩。秦重三编《气功疗法》中的“三合式”，王芗斋编的《大成拳》都脱胎于此 。


Combat , internal power, internal strength , and health. All in one, read the following.

http://www.chinaqigong.net/mltyqg/yqg/zg/gf/sts.htm

[Scott R. Brown]

Excellent !

You don't read or comprehend very well! I already told you, I KNOW!!

[bawang]

Hendrick:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mP3h8mEdFTg&feature=plcp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKWVOc2HOig&feature=relmfu

if i put the penus inside the poo poo chute, i could not tell if it is a man or a woman.

[taai gihk yahn]

if i put the penus inside the poo poo chute, i could not tell if it is a man or a woman.

oh, it's man - 100%, pure man!

[Matthew]

IMO, if "combat" is all you can say about TCMA- you'd better off joining an MMA school instead of posting on a CMA forum.


Why sit around wasting training time on a forum posting about how CMA needs to obey these "combat" effective standards (which they are implying UFC rules usually). :rolleyes:


Some people are here discussing TCMA principles and its strong relatation to health

Some others are on the UFC bandwagon trying to psychoanalyze people they've never met from posts they see on the internet. I hope people have and do better things in the real world.

------>I noticed some acquaintances and friends I knew joined MMA - had a lot to do with their own insecurities.. I hope that's not why people here are so obsessed with "Combat!":cool:

[YouKnowWho]

Some people are here discussing TCMA principles and its strong relatation to health...
The purpose of this thread is trying to find out whether "combat" and "health" training should be the same or should be different. If you train for

- combat only,
- both combat and health,
- health only,

will you apply the same training? I had presented an article that stated the training should be "different". we can agree or dis-agree on that. That's the main discussion here.

[Matthew]

The purpose of this thread is trying to find out whether "combat" and "health" training should be the same or should be different. If you train for

- combat only,
- both combat and health,
- health only,

will you apply the same training? I had presented an article that stated the training should be "different". we can agree or dis-agree on that. That's the main discussion here.

Just an outsider view, your article seemed to deal with Solo and Non-solo training. I did not see a differentiation in the quote about differentiation of Health and Combat training. Solo Training is not the same as saying Health Training.

Solo training can be both Combat and Health focused. In fact, optimal health would obviously enable a better platform to practice combat on.

Meditation is solo training, and even the bigger name MMA school near me has added it in their curriculum- to optimize peoples abilities in the combat zone. People aren't going to this MMA meditation class because they want enlightenment, they're doing it to improve their mind and health to improve their combat ability.

A different example of solo training that is more obviously combat oriented is using a dummy, punching bag, or other creation. It is solo and improves health and combat.

[Matthew]

If you train for

- combat only,
- both combat and health,
- health only,

will you apply the same training?

This depends on a lot of things and the question is too vague to answer decidedly.

IMO, if we are talking about TCMA with neigong core, it is both at once, no question.

If we are generalizing about situations in history where people needed to pick up a weapon and fight to survive the very next day, odds are they are not spending much time to find a renowned TCMA teacher who knows the neigong core.

Modern schools that descended down from that type of situation seem to practice Health separately from their combat, likely because they did not learn the neigong core.

Example of Modern Shaolin teachers saying that the drills, forms, etc are Waigong (External skill) and Qigong is required separately for health. Teachers of Southern martial arts I met say you need both to optimize [martial] ability... and implying that both are required to be effective in combat.

Whether or not you can stretch that to say training for combat only is to ignore health- that's what I'm seeing your question is actually stuck on, not stuck on "is there a difference between health vs combat" training

[YouKnowWho]

Solo Training is not the same as saying Health Training.
Do we agree on the following definition?

A person who train TCMA for "health" only is the person who don't care and don't do partner training.

Will you train "iron palm" if you only care about "health"?

[YouKnowWho]

Qigong is required separately for health.
Qigong is needed for all TCMA system even in the so called "external" system such as the nothern Shaolin longfist (at 0.34).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AK0sjvVfgFc

[bawang]

Modern schools that descended down from that type of situation seem to practice Health separately from their combat, likely because they did not learn the neigong core.



ALL legitimate traditions descend down from "that type of situation". ALL




------>I noticed some acquaintances and friends I knew joined MMA - had a lot to do with their own insecurities.. I hope that's not why people here are so obsessed with "Combat!":cool:

you need to overcome your own insecurity. you are scared of muscles.

[Matthew]

ALL legitimate traditions descend down from "that type of situation". ALL


That says nothing about what they evolved into. The problem I presented is that people think that is where it ends and that is all TCMA is

[Matthew]

Do we agree on the following definition?

A person who train TCMA for "health" only is the person who don't care and don't do partner training.

Will you train "iron palm" if you only care about "health"?

no, because that wouldn't be Traditional Chinese Martial Arts- but healing art instead. And I've known lots of people who practiced TCMA for health, and did partner training, multiple people drill, etc.

So IMO focus only on health is TCMA. - I don't want to disagree with you flat out, I am really trying to see what you are getting at with this whole piece too

[Matthew]

Qigong is needed for all TCMA system even in the so called "external" system such as the nothern Shaolin longfist (at 0.34).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AK0sjvVfgFc

Qi Gong is loosely defined term in nowadays definition.
What you just said- external styles requiring qigong, is what my point was....

that IMO, you cannot train TCMA for combat only by definition of TCMA.

IMO Qigong can be part of TCMA, or by itself not as TCMA

[bawang]

That says nothing about what they evolved into. The problem I presented is that people think that is where it ends and that is all TCMA is

chan buddhism is simplicity. you cannot accept the simple and obvious, but want fancy, complicated things.

[YouKnowWho]

And I've known lots of people who practiced TCMA for health, and did partner training, multiple people drill, etc.
We are getting closer to my final point. If you only care about "train TCMA for health", why do you want to train with partner so you can develop

- Tinjin,
- sticky,
- follow,
- yield,
- ...?

None of those will be need for "health". You can be a very "healthy" person without Tinjin, sticky, follow, yield, ...

Maybe my simple question can be, "Why do you want to train how to shoot a firearm, if you don't intend to use it?"

[xinyidizi]

Maybe my simple question can be, "Why do you want to train how to shoot a firearm, if you don't intend to use it?"
Because it makes you feel awesome?

But seriously in my experience a combination of qigong, standing ,internal ma, external martial arts and a little bit of combat training is necessary to balance all the yin and yang of the training so that you can feel awesome.

[Matthew]

I think the issue we're seeing is the dichotomous question you originally posed. I think it is possible to train with one of two in TCMA (or neither)

1) Health emphasis
2) Combat emphasis
"3" - neither emphasis. doing both to fullest ability

but I do not think it is TCMA if you are ignoring the other component. And I do think training could vary, although the degree to that variation will depend heavily on what you perceive as TCMA.

[Matthew]

- Tinjin,
- sticky,
- follow,
- yield,
- ...?

None of those will be need for "health". You can be a very "healthy" person without Tinjin, sticky, follow, yield, ...

Being a "very healthy" person is different than optimizing health ->All of those things can improve mental physical and complete health.

IMO, understanding martial intent would require some at least some non solo work, and is needed to perform correct movements - and thus opening the channels the moves are meant to, to optimize health.

Also- many people are obsessed with combat only thinking about UFC and fighting.. Many of these principles/energies have application in every day life benefit.

example,
you want to walk your elder aunt, parent, grandparent, etc and having listening skill can help reduce your likelihood of letting them fall, if they trip, etc.

I use such things in my garden. Soil is living to some extent- raking, tilling, culling, harvesting, etc all benefited.

Carrying somebody ( child, loved one, wife, girlfriend, etc) on your shoulder or in arms

moving deadweight (dressers, car out of gas, stones, etc)

Especially you want to learn to heal others, you'd better have high level understanding of your own body and especially others, right?




Maybe my simple question can be, "Why do you want to train how to shoot a firearm, if you don't intend to use it?"

I don't shoot firearms, so I can't really answer that. I think this is an issue of dichotomy Still.

IME in the west we often have strong dichotomy of healthy and non-healthy. In China it is more the idea of optimizing health through anything you can really do practically (drinking room temp water, don't go to sleep with wet hair, don't reveal belly button in cold weather, don't practice in cold high winds, etc).

[sanjuro_ronin]

We are getting closer to my final point. If you only care about "train TCMA for health", why do you want to train with partner so you can develop

- Tinjin,
- sticky,
- follow,
- yield,
- ...?

None of those will be need for "health". You can be a very "healthy" person without Tinjin, sticky, follow, yield, ...

Maybe my simple question can be, "Why do you want to train how to shoot a firearm, if you don't intend to use it?"

Its called LARPing.:D

[David Jamieson]

Its called LARPing.:D

lol...well it certainly can be by the looks of some things.

But one can train to fight without seeking out fighting.
The benefits of the training are health as well, even if it is strictly fight training.
road work + bag work + resistance training etc all metes out as healthy and healthiness of the body.

TCMA has qigongs and in my perspective, more notably Nei Gong.
These aspects are wholly for specific developments in body and mind and I enjoy these quite often as methods of exercise and mental stress relief.

Why not learn to shoot a gun? It's a skill. Why not learn to box and wrestle? These are usable skills even if you don't use them with frequency.

Don't let your lack of fighting discourage you from training. Even the best fighters in the world spend more time training than they do fighting.

[sanjuro_ronin]

lol...well it certainly can be by the looks of some things.

But one can train to fight without seeking out fighting.
The benefits of the training are health as well, even if it is strictly fight training.
road work + bag work + resistance training etc all metes out as healthy and healthiness of the body.

TCMA has qigongs and in my perspective, more notably Nei Gong.
These aspects are wholly for specific developments in body and mind and I enjoy these quite often as methods of exercise and mental stress relief.

Why not learn to shoot a gun? It's a skill. Why not learn to box and wrestle? These are usable skills even if you don't use them with frequency.

Don't let your lack of fighting discourage you from training. Even the best fighters in the world spend more time training than they do fighting.

Oh for sure, I agree 100%.
I have no problem with people learning to fight so they don't have to.

[taai gihk yahn]

We are getting closer to my final point. If you only care about "train TCMA for health", why do you want to train with partner so you can develop

- Tinjin,
- sticky,
- follow,
- yield,
- ...?

None of those will be need for "health". You can be a very "healthy" person without Tinjin, sticky, follow, yield, ...

I think the biggest problem here is that no one really has a working definition of "health"; personally, I go with what the World Health Organization defines health as:

"Health is a state of complete physical, mental and social well-being and not merely the absence of disease or infirmity."

With that definition in mind, it follows that there is an aspect to "health" that involves interaction with other people - positive social interaction is very "healthy"(some researchers propose that many of the "health" effects of taiji are because it is done in a group); it is well documented that physical contact with others is one way to engage a parasympathetic response - therefore, doing push hands in a noncompetitive manner can engage this; all the "listening", 'yielding", etc. skills develop increased kinesthetic awareness, and require calming of the conditional (monkey) mind, and is a way to de-stress and increase body awareness, of both of self and other - this helps with overall neuromuscular / postural health and by extension other systems (digestive, cardio respiratory, endocrine, etc.); you can learn a lot more about your own balance deficits by working w a partner than you can on your own;

finally, I think the whole argument is an artifact - you practice whatever you practice for your own reasons - combat / health - these are artificial dichotomies: if you practice your art against resisting opponents, you will be more adept at using it in this way - and furthermore, you still may be more healthy than someone who practices taiji / qigong (again, w the WHO definition in mind);

this is about the human experience, which essentially defies categorization;

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think the biggest problem here is that no one really has a working definition of "health"; personally, I go with what the World Health Organization defines health as:

"Health is a state of complete physical, mental and social well-being and not merely the absence of disease or infirmity."

With that definition in mind, it follows that there is an aspect to "health" that involves interaction with other people - positive social interaction is very "healthy"(some researchers propose that many of the "health" effects of taiji are because it is done in a group); it is well documented that physical contact with others is one way to engage a parasympathetic response - therefore, doing push hands in a noncompetitive manner can engage this; all the "listening", 'yielding", etc. skills develop increased kinesthetic awareness, and require calming of the conditional (monkey) mind, and is a way to de-stress and increase body awareness, of both of self and other - this helps with overall neuromuscular / postural health and by extension other systems (digestive, cardio respiratory, endocrine, etc.); you can learn a lot more about your own balance deficits by working w a partner than you can on your own;

finally, I think the whole argument is an artifact - you practice whatever you practice for your own reasons - combat / health - these are artificial dichotomies: if you practice your art against resisting opponents, you will be more adept at using it in this way - and furthermore, you still may be more healthy than someone who practices taiji / qigong (again, w the WHO definition in mind);

this is about the human experience, which essentially defies categorization;

I practice kung fu for the boobies !!
http://unrealitymag.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/cosplay_cleavage_2.jpg

[Hebrew Hammer]

I practice kung fu for the boobies !!
http://unrealitymag.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/cosplay_cleavage_2.jpg

Now that is something that could dramatically improve my health, my emotional well being, and increase blood flow to the lower extremities! wow...smoking hot...who is that?

[Lucas]

Now that is something that could dramatically improve my health, my emotional well being, and increase blood flow to the lower extremities! wow...smoking hot...who is that?

thats bawangs mom

[Hebrew Hammer]

thats bawangs mom

Bawang must have been an ass baby. No way they're in the same gene pool.

[taai gihk yahn]

I practice kung fu for the boobies !!

that's what I actually meant to say

[sanjuro_ronin]

that's what I actually meant to say

You and I are like this man !
http://ralph.ninemsn.com.au/img/babe_articles/jul09/chicks_wallpaper.jpg

[Lucas]

Bawang must have been an ass baby. No way they're in the same gene pool.

he was adopted. well, actually he was pillaged but ya...

[YouKnowWho]

A different example of solo training that is more obviously combat oriented is using a dummy, punching bag, or other creation. It is solo and improves health and combat.
We have different definition here. TCMA training include:

- partner training (develop),
- solo training (polish),
- equipment training (enhance),
- sparring/wrestling (test).

The solo training is used to polish your skill. The equipment training is used to enhance your skill. both have different purpose.