Lets try a discussion about White Crane Gongfu!

[Minghequan]

Hmmm,

Okay seeing as the other threade got a little off track lets see if we can discuss White Crane as:

1/. A Fighting Art!

2/. An art for Qigong!

3/. An art for health!

4/. An art for art and making good people, better!

[sanjuro_ronin]

Let me start by asking you this Ron:
Why was white crane developed?

[TenTigers]

Don't be silly. For the same reason all Martial Arts were developed:
to give a place for people to wear silk pajamas with dignity.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Don't be silly. For the same reason all Martial Arts were developed:
to give a place for people to wear silk pajamas with dignity.

You, sir, have the real "crane engine".
:D

[David Jamieson]

The best white crane going...

http://img.nauticexpo.com/images_ne/photo-m2/boat-deck-cranes-235931.jpg

[Robinhood]

Let me start by asking you this Ron:
Why was white crane developed?

Because someone was infatuated with white cranes, and thought that if he imitated one he would become one, kind of like Mr "limpid" became a fish.

[Robinhood]

Let me start by asking you this Ron:
Why was white crane developed?

Is it because the white crane is the king of the jungle ?

[YouKnowWho]

One of the white crane Fajin is like a crane spreads both wings out at the same time. Can you hurt someone by hitting him with the back of your palms (at 0.08)?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyXytfsrM-4

[Lee Chiang Po]

One of the white crane Fajin is like a crane spreads both wings out at the same time. Can you hurt someone by hitting him with the back of your palms (at 0.08)?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyXytfsrM-4


You can, but only if he is a sissy. It is a fight style for sissies, by sissies, to be used against sissies. So yes, you can.

[Hendrik]

One of the white crane Fajin is like a crane spreads both wings out at the same time. Can you hurt someone by hitting him with the back of your palms (at 0.08)?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyXytfsrM-4

This is one of most funny demo I have seen. Called this type of things guru or cult following.


Those who knows Jin. For the case of 1.42. One has only to calmly apply slight down ward pressure on the arm, let go, and do a slap At the arms with ease, the opponents will bounce back out. Not this funny clumsy brute force, force fights against force.... Messy stuffs.

One needs only to press down and then release, make used of the opponents rooting bounce back break its own root and slap him send him bounce back ward.

[sanjuro_ronin]

One of the white crane Fajin is like a crane spreads both wings out at the same time. Can you hurt someone by hitting him with the back of your palms (at 0.08)?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyXytfsrM-4

Horrifc video.
But as for your question, yes you can take a guy out with a "back of the hand slap"
That I know YOU know.
Whatever that guy did in the clip suck big hairy ones.

[ginosifu]

One of the white crane Fajin is like a crane spreads both wings out at the same time. Can you hurt someone by hitting him with the back of your palms (at 0.08)?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyXytfsrM-4

John:

That was the crapiest video to demonstrate your thought or idea. Ron.... Where are you on all this? People are discussine White Crane and you are not here to rebutle.

SanjuroRonin:

I agree with you on the fact that all Martial Arts roots are Fighting. There is a kinda double edged sword issue that goes along with the fighting arts that I posted in YouKnowWho's Combat VS Health Thread.


YouKnowWho:

Combat VS Health is a double edged sword.

Combat training, self defense, fighting skills etc.. is the skill to be able to defend yourself from bandits, muggers, attackers etc... also known as: Skills to preserve your life.

Health training is the skill of keeping your mind and body healthy, staying fit and in good shape etc.. also known as: Skills to preserve your life.

What is the difference between dying at age 40 from a mugger or dying at age 40 from a heart attack?

Both skills preserve your life. Both should be trained whether done together or seperate.

ginosifu

Martial Arts styles were created to stop people from killing your self (preserving your life). Health training preserves your life as well. So when you talk about MA in general, all styles including White Crane may have placed emphasis on health, spirtual, religious and or meditation training.

Again I agree with you 100% that MA should focus on fighting to find the secrets behind your style. Just saying: Whatever floats your boat !

ginosifu

[TenTigers]

I believe they recognized the health benefits, later. But back then, longevity meant you outlived your enemies. Even Tai-Chi was a fighting art first. Most of the Fukien, Siu-Lum, and Hakka kuen arts were designed to Fan ching fuk ming.

[bawang]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00BbDeeasCY

[sanjuro_ronin]

I believe they recognized the health benefits, later. But back then, longevity meant you outlived your enemies. Even Tai-Chi was a fighting art first. Most of the Fukien, Siu-Lum, and Hakka kuen arts were designed to Fan ching fuk ming.
I agree.
It was one of those "happy coincidences".
Of course as we know, not all systems worked that way and some "trade off" health for combat effectiveness.
The developer(s) of White Crane took what they knew, pressure tested it in combat and "slapped" a label on it based on, if you go with the legend, what they observed in nature.
Not going into the "myths" of how the name came to be and focusing on what facts we can asertain based on the practical application of White Crane what we have is a typical "southern hand" system like SPM, Wing Chun, Dragon boxing, five ancestors, etc.
An in-close, direct system of H2H fighting with primary emphasis on Hands, kicks kept low, strong use of narrow stances such as the "san jan" stance, open hand and specialty fist like the phoenix-eye fist.
A system designed to be used sooner rather than later, physical conditioning being crucial it uses methods of body "hardening" to deliver AND receive blows, it deals with standing grappling and, because the practioners realised that the typical methods of delivering strikes do NOT work AS WELL in-close as they do with "distance", the developed training drills to enhance "short distance" power in their strikes AND grappling moves ( standing grappling).

[Minghequan]

Gino and others,

I'd love to have participated in the discussion of White Crane but then I saw this thread degenerate in to a series of one-liners and one upmanship in attempts at humor (not that I don't mind a laugh) so I quickly decided to give it a miss as it was plainly going nowhere.

Now I see some limited attempt at discussing the actual subject.


That was the crapiest video to demonstrate your thought or idea. Ron.... Where are you on all this? People are discussine White Crane and you are not here to rebutle.


Hmmm, please read the above.

As for the Youtube Video, I see it more as a demonstration of Qigong methods than actual fighting and I am not about to slam or put-down another school or style that I have not trained in on the basis of a few Internet Youtube grabs ... that would not be right nor fair.

Hey here's a novel idea! Perhaps some will start a thread that actually discusses White Crane??? Now wouldn't that be interesting!

[sanjuro_ronin]

Gino and others,

I'd love to have participated in the discussion of White Crane but then I saw this thread degenerate in to a series of one-liners and one upmanship in attempts at humor (not that I don't mind a laugh) so I quickly decided to give it a miss as it was plainly going nowhere.

Now I see some limited attempt at discussing the actual subject.



Hmmm, please read the above.

As for the Youtube Video, I see it more as a demonstration of Qigong methods than actual fighting and I am not about to slam or put-down another school or style that I have not trained in on the basis of a few Internet Youtube grabs ... that would not be right nor fair.

Hey here's a novel idea! Perhaps some will start a thread that actually discusses White Crane??? Now wouldn't that be interesting!

Sometimes threads don't go the way the thread starter wants them to go, typically because the thread starter isn't around.
:rolleyes:

[3v1lj03]

What brand of White Crane would you like to discuss? I am a practitioner of Tibetan White Crane and it's principles and methods are different then both Shaolin and Fujian white crane. Even within Pok Hok Pai the different lineages have lead to significant differences within the same "style"

[TenTigers]

What brand of White Crane would you like to discuss? I am a practitioner of Tibetan White Crane and it's principles and methods are different then both Shaolin and Fujian white crane. Even within Pok Hok Pai the different lineages have lead to significant differences within the same "style"
I believe Ron would like this thread to focus on the Fukien Bak Hok.
However, that being said, would you please start a new thread on Tibetan White Crane?
I am particularly interested in discussing their short hand techniques (which do share similarities to their Fukienese counterparts)
Footwork and body shifting, angling would also be interesting topics.

[TenTigers]

Hmmm,

Okay seeing as the other threade got a little off track lets see if we can discuss White Crane as:

1/. A Fighting Art!

2/. An art for Qigong!

3/. An art for health!

4/. An art for art and making good people, better!
ok Ron. I think to discuss WC's fighting methods would be good. As far as the other topics, as I said, they were not part of the original plan, but more serendipitous discoveries later on.
All Martial Arts can be for qigong and for health, if practiced toward that end.
I'm not saying that WC does not have separate qigong and health practices that are now within the system. My own Siu Lum Hung Kuen incorporates Yik Gung Ging, Bot Duen Gum, and Dao Yin methods into its practice. But first and foremost, it was designed for fighting.

[jdhowland]

I believe Ron would like this thread to focus on the Fukien Bak Hok.
However, that being said, would you please start a new thread on Tibetan White Crane?
I am particularly interested in discussing their short hand techniques (which do share similarities to their Fukienese counterparts)
Footwork and body shifting, angling would also be interesting topics.


Good idea. It's been awhile.

I'll start if no one else does.

[TenTigers]

Good idea. It's been awhile.

I'll start if no one else does.
go for it. It's time to bring this forum back to meaningful discussions and away from the ignorant bullsh1t.
Oh, but meaningless bullsh1t is ok...
otherwise I'd have nothing to say....

[YouKnowWho]

That was the crapiest video to demonstrate your thought or idea.

At least that clip is not "solo". Can you find any white crane clip that is not "solo"? I don't see much value to discuss "solo".


1. A Fighting Art!

[Minghequan]

Try here and lets see if we can get a real discussion going?

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1174741#post1174741

[David Jamieson]

geez, why start another one?

lol, now we're gonna have a bunch of protracted and empty white crane threads...

Let's talk white crane!

someone makes a joke.

The end.

Yeah, that's fun.

Dude, conversations are organic and people will input what they do.
Why don't you drop some stuff for discussion and debate and see where that unfolds?

Seems a bit thin skinned otherwise. It's not like anyone was abusive, just light hearted and you contributed exactly nothing to make that go in a different direction and now you are just going to do the same thing again.

:rolleyes:

[sanjuro_ronin]

Try here and lets see if we can get a real discussion going?

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1174741#post1174741

Nope, stick with this one Ron.

[GETHIN]

I am working on an old book I was given in Yongchun a few years ago... its massive. and a lot of time needed to translate it !. Here's a section some may find interesting.


DISENGAGEMENT pulling off.



1...When choosing to attack to the east, prepare to strike to the west.
Be sure to follow through by stepping forward.


2...When turning, do so with strength and speed - predict your fight.


3...When your opponent is of a greater size than you - shut him down.
Plan your moves - arrange your opponent and adhere to him.


4...Join and link gently to your opponents movements, close him down and secure.
Adopt and develop a flow that is consistent with your opponent, when this is
established your strikes will have effect.


5...As you move across your opponents path, if you are able to restrain him, throw him.
If your opponent hurts your head, you will hurt his face.



6...Be alert and efficient, guard your throat and look to your opponents.
If you are at very close range make full contact and use all of your body in whatever means possible.


7...If at long range, at first use your feet, deliver yourself with careful footwork.
If you intend to strike to the left shoulder, stike to the right shoulder first, deploy and deceive.


8...Footwork should be strictly adhered to.
If you choose to kick your opponent use your hands first.
Whether stepping or kicking always be prepared to return the foot to it's previous position.



9...Draw down, pull, then strike with severity.
If your opponent grabs your forearm, wrist or hand, use your free hand to chop to his wrist.
If your opponent grabs your sleeve hit them hard with all your body.


10...Use the knees with good purpose.
When in an attacking mode make your plan and execute it with vigour.


11...Always consider the best angle to fight from, without good footwork such options will not prevail.
Use low stances and gain control. If your enemy is smaller than you do not kick.


12...From a low stance jump high and strike whilst ascending.
If your enemy is bigger than you strike to the waist or lower first.


13...When descending grab whatever your opponent may present - and pull down.
Beware of opponent pulling your hair.
Divide your opponent into two targets - upper and lower.


14...If you chop to the neck be sure to use all your strength.
Kick, weave and shake to protect yourself.

15...Hands and feet working together will succeed.

[TenTigers]

9...Draw down, pull, then strike with severity.
If your opponent grabs your forearm, wrist or hand, use your free hand to chop to his wrist.


I take issue with this. If an opponent grabs your forearm, hit him. Striking to the wrist is inefficient, a waste of a movement. Your opponent will grab and strike, not simply hold.

[sanjuro_ronin]

My views:

1...When choosing to attack to the east, prepare to strike to the west.
Be sure to follow through by stepping forward.

Standard strategy in every MA of course.


2...When turning, do so with strength and speed - predict your fight.



I think "predict" is perhaps best stated as "dictate" your fight.


3...When your opponent is of a greater size than you - shut him down.
Plan your moves - arrange your opponent and adhere to him.

Play the angles, get in, control his fulcrum points and "stick" to him ( don't let him create distance).



4...Join and link gently to your opponents movements, close him down and secure.
Adopt and develop a flow that is consistent with your opponent, when this is
established your strikes will have effect.

Pretty much trying to fight OUR fight BUT within the context of what the opponent gives us- don't force it.



5...As you move across your opponents path, if you are able to restrain him, throw him.
If your opponent hurts your head, you will hurt his face.

Not sure about this one...




6...Be alert and efficient, guard your throat and look to your opponents.
If you are at very close range make full contact and use all of your body in whatever means possible.

Pretty straight forward.
Protect your vitals, attack your opponents.
Distrupt his structure with full force - not sissy slapping crap !



7...If at long range, at first use your feet, deliver yourself with careful footwork.
If you intend to strike to the left shoulder, stike to the right shoulder first, deploy and deceive.

Move in with angled footwork, the rest is obvious.


8...Footwork should be strictly adhered to.
If you choose to kick your opponent use your hands first.
Whether stepping or kicking always be prepared to return the foot to it's previous position.

No need to explain.



9...Draw down, pull, then strike with severity.
If your opponent grabs your forearm, wrist or hand, use your free hand to chop to his wrist.
If your opponent grabs your sleeve hit them hard with all your body.

Use gravity to feed your strikes.
Attack his limbs ie: closet targets
Use your whole body (not only into your strikes but also body strikes)



10...Use the knees with good purpose.
When in an attacking mode make your plan and execute it with vigour.

Not just about knee strikes but the importance of knee structure in attacking (solid stance).



11...Always consider the best angle to fight from, without good footwork such options will not prevail.
Use low stances and gain control. If your enemy is smaller than you do not kick.


Pretty straight forward.


12...From a low stance jump high and strike whilst ascending.
If your enemy is bigger than you strike to the waist or lower first.


Agian, use gravity to help your strikes.
Attack low line targets on bigger opponents.


13...When descending grab whatever your opponent may present - and pull down.
Beware of opponent pulling your hair.
Divide your opponent into two targets - upper and lower.

straight forward



14...If you chop to the neck be sure to use all your strength.
Kick, weave and shake to protect yourself.
Ditto


15...Hands and feet working together will succeed.

Of course.

[sanjuro_ronin]

9...Draw down, pull, then strike with severity.
If your opponent grabs your forearm, wrist or hand, use your free hand to chop to his wrist.


I take issue with this. If an opponent grabs your forearm, hit him. Striking to the wrist is inefficient, a waste of a movement. Your opponent will grab and strike, not simply hold.

Granted, but not every grab is deserving of mass annihilation !
There may also be a "dim mak" thing here...

[TenTigers]

Granted, but not every grab is deserving of mass annihilation !
There may also be a "dim mak" thing here...
even if I am simply doing a cum-na sao technique, I set it up with a strike, usually to a point. "use strikes to set up locks, to set up strikes."

[sanjuro_ronin]

even if I am simply doing a cum-na sao technique, I set it up with a strike, usually to a point. "use strikes to set up locks, to set up strikes."

Indeed and agreed.
I am not a fan of hitting the limbs when better targets are available.

[David Jamieson]

Indeed and agreed.
I am not a fan of hitting the limbs when better targets are available.

hitting the body of a limb can render out as ineffective, I agree after making more than several attempts at these kinds and types of striking techs.

However, after further instruction, discussion and application, it is not the limbs which are to be struck at, it is the joints on the limbs. That is the weakest point of any limb and that is where you strike or rend or pull. On a joint.

strike or grab and pull at the joint in the direction it is NOT intended or made to go.

voila, there's a bucket load of CMA secret right there folks. :)

[YouKnowWho]

I am not a fan of hitting the limbs when better targets are available.
When you fight conservatively, it's not a bad strategy.

If you can drop your sharp elbow at your opponent's "instep" when he throws roundhouse kick or side kick at you. You may be able to disable his kick for a short while. Since you don't have to move much. all you need is to aim your elbow at your target when he kick. Your opponent comes to you. You don't need to go to him. Not hard to do but the reward is great.

[GETHIN]

Please excuse my poor notes LOL !!!. Here is a Fujian style of chopping to the wrists as found in several Crane forms - performed with the free hand from below the 'offended' or 'grabbed' limb. Chops are made in the directions shown by red arrows. Elbows of course should always stay close together and to the front... it's quite effective if practsed and performed well.
Regards.

[Minghequan]

Hi, I've been asked by sdf123 tom post the following as it seems his account has been suspended or he has been banned?:

To Hendrik:

Hi Hendrik,

1:42 is not done by brute force. You see as Master Chung pulled down the opponent, he only uses 2 fingers on each hand. I think it will still be hard to pull someone down like that even if one is really muscular, or not to pull someone down without any resistance like that. Don’t believe me?? give it a try. Therefore, there is a lot more going on than a seemingly downward pull, my friend.

To respect the purpose of this thread and Ron’s interest, let me ask you the following questions.

Hendrik, you can read Chinese and have studied about white crane before, right??

Have you heard about this phrase, "鶴法只靠搖宗手?”

The translation roughly goes like, “Jin in White Crane is all about 搖(yao)宗(zong).”

What is your interpretation on 搖(yao) and宗(zong) and should those two be considered separately or collectively??

Or you must have heard about this “連三起峻”. before. It is written under the QiGong section of Fāng Qīniáng’s text.

連(lian): to link

三(san): three

起(qi):activate, to raise

峻(jun): ??? (I would like to learn about your interpretation on this word and the whole phrase.)

To YouKnowWho:

Hi YouKnowWho,

Yes, you can you hurt someone by hitting them with the back of your palms. that is actually the water hand from the 5 element hands (metal,wood,water,fire and earth).

Being hit by water hand at 中府(ZhongFu) or 雲門(Yunmen), the two pressure points, could be interesting.

[Minghequan]

I am happy to keep the discussion flowing here.

I will contribute as time allows me to do so.

Perhaps someone would like to chime in with the creation of White Crane by Fang Qiniang which I believe illustrates the Fighting nature of the art.

[sdf123]

Minghequan,

it was my fault. I accidentally signed in with my older non-activated account so I
thought my account was locked. :p

now it is fine now.

and thank you for posting those two questions for me.

[EternalSpring]

9...Draw down, pull, then strike with severity.
If your opponent grabs your forearm, wrist or hand, use your free hand to chop to his wrist.


I take issue with this. If an opponent grabs your forearm, hit him. Striking to the wrist is inefficient, a waste of a movement. Your opponent will grab and strike, not simply hold.

I see what you mean, but I think it's just a basic concept that is probably expanded when applied at more proficient levels. For example, the "chop to the wrist," will probably become similar to the "pak-da" concepts where you chop the grabbing hand and hit at the same time using the other hand, so that the instant the grabbed hand is free, it's already punching.