Neigong Demos: What's real, what's fake, what's GOING ON?

[imperialtaichi]

I'm sure most of us have seen lots of spectacular "Chi Blast" demonstrations done by world famous masters on YouTube. But have you noticed that these demos were done mostly on students, and on people already in the game, but NEVER duplicated on an average Joe in the audience in such a spectacular fashion?

For those of you unaware of my background, this is what I used to do a lot. This clip was made 6 years ago:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZEx3KZ5Wio

Is this real? Yes, but with a biiiiiiiig "BUT"..... here is why.

Most of these demos focus on the ISSUING OF POWER, which is actually the EASIEST part. To make the demonstration spectacular, the demonstrator would need to lock on to the mind and body of the subject very precisely, so the power can go through completely unopposed. Of which, if the subject is corporative and has the skills to line himself up precisely, the result is spectacular. But if the subject is NOT corporative, nor has the required skills to coordinate with the demonstrator, the demonstration would at best, be mediocre.

In real fights, the real skills is the invisible "Listening, Asking, Locking" of the opponent. The "issuing of power" is the visible spectacular easy part. And no-one, is going to just stand there and let you take control of their mind/body/centre of gravity/power generating pathway.

This type of training does, however, have it's LIMITED place in developing skills; much like, we train with the Wooden Dummy to fine tune our coordination and power, although the the Dummy never hits back; except in this case, a real person is acting as the "Dummy", so that we can train internal alignment, mental projections etc. while the person doesn't hit back just like the dummy. A good training partner can also, vary the degree of "corporation", to make it easy or hard, and to guide you like a "training wheel" like we first learn to ride. But not everyone of us learn with the training wheel and can still ride.

Unfortunately, a lot of people, Masters alike, are over obsessed with this type of things. They see it as the "Holy Grail", losing track of the real world, living only in fantasy land. Many Masters won't demonstrate on strangers because they KNOW it does not work that way. Some are honest, and would tell you straight up it wouldn't work; but some would make excuses like "I don't want to hurt you" or "you will get internal injuries by my Chi Blast" etc. And some, being totally delusional, thinking they can reproduce it cleanly in real fights, get their head smacked. :p

So, it is REAL under a certain context; FAKE if anyone claims to have super-human powers; and I hope I managed to shed some light on WHAT'S GOING ON.

[CFT]

Nice post John.

You mean 'co-operative' not 'corporative'.

[imperialtaichi]

Nice post John.

You mean 'co-operative' not 'corporative'.

Oops, darn auto-correct ;)

[YouKnowWho]

Most of these demos focus on the ISSUING OF POWER, which is actually the EASIEST part.
Agree that to be able to issue power is the EASIEST part. Unfortunately, many people still like to demonstrate such basic level skill when they are old.

[Hendrik]

I'm sure most of us have seen lots of spectacular "Chi Blast" demonstrations done by world famous masters on YouTube. But have you noticed that these demos were done mostly on students, and on people already in the game, but NEVER duplicated on an average Joe in the audience in such a spectacular fashion?

For those of you unaware of my background, this is what I used to do a lot. This clip was made 6 years ago:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZEx3KZ5Wio

Is this real? Yes, but with a biiiiiiiig "BUT"..... here is why.

Most of these demos focus on the ISSUING OF POWER, which is actually the EASIEST part. To make the demonstration spectacular, the demonstrator would need to lock on to the mind and body of the subject very precisely, so the power can go through completely unopposed. Of which, if the subject is corporative and has the skills to line himself up precisely, the result is spectacular. But if the subject is NOT corporative, nor has the required skills to coordinate with the demonstrator, the demonstration would at best, be mediocre.

In real fights, the real skills is the invisible "Listening, Asking, Locking" of the opponent. The "issuing of power" is the visible spectacular easy part. And no-one, is going to just stand there and let you take control of their mind/body/centre of gravity/power generating pathway.

This type of training does, however, have it's LIMITED place in developing skills; much like, we train with the Wooden Dummy to fine tune our coordination and power, although the the Dummy never hits back; except in this case, a real person is acting as the "Dummy", so that we can train internal alignment, mental projections etc. while the person doesn't hit back just like the dummy. A good training partner can also, vary the degree of "corporation", to make it easy or hard, and to guide you like a "training wheel" like we first learn to ride. But not everyone of us learn with the training wheel and can still ride.

Unfortunately, a lot of people, Masters alike, are over obsessed with this type of things. They see it as the "Holy Grail", losing track of the real world, living only in fantasy land. Many Masters won't demonstrate on strangers because they KNOW it does not work that way. Some are honest, and would tell you straight up it wouldn't work; but some would make excuses like "I don't want to hurt you" or "you will get internal injuries by my Chi Blast" etc. And some, being totally delusional, thinking they can reproduce it cleanly in real fights, get their head smacked. :p

So, it is REAL under a certain context; FAKE if anyone claims to have super-human powers; and I hope I managed to shed some light on WHAT'S GOING ON.



1. Appreciate for your sharing! This sure has great value to open up and clarify this subject!




Here is my view,

2. IMHO, similar to the wing Chun demo of holding a structure, it is a natural human phenomenon of using visualization to balance force vector. Knowing this force balancing alone cannot be neigong. This is a type of taiji push hand skil which even the taiji figther knows it is not that applicable in combat. In fact it has nothing to do with qi. And also not the same with the power develop from the six harmony from such as Xing yi or ba ji or Chen taiji reel silk Dan dien inter rotate.


3. In order to classify as neigong one has to be able to develop to a point of Listen, ask, lock, issue in the same time. Or otherwise, it is not that useful in real life. However, this alone is still not a complete neigong as define by the ancient internal art.

That is because the breathing, qi cultivation, the sinews, the bone marrow, the Shen (present ness) are not develop.

Breathing Development increase ones breathing volume and oxigen intake from 2x to 5 x Compare to the pre develop state, Qi development lead one to be able to strengthen , linking ones internal organ , the limbs , and whole body in to one piece. Sinews development lead one to be agile and loose. Bone marrow development develop the density of the bone. Shen development bring one into samadhi where one can switch off the thought and stay in uninterrupted awareness.

So, who has this type of neigong develop? An example for those exist in 1900's Chen cin of chen tai ji, Wang Xiang zai of yee chuan, Du xing wu of zi lan men, ma lee dang of Xing yi, Chen man Ching of taiji . Just to name a few.



4. IMHO, WCK pulse inch Jin is the same with the above type of vector balancing act . In wck pulsing,mone can send the pulse inch Jin as one likes it anytime , any place , and any depth. Independed of the opponent.
That is develop from both the crane joints snake qi and body weight wave at every move one takes.

This WCK pulse in jin, if one doesn't develop the six bows, snake engine, and the natural used of body weight wave, one cannot get there, brute forcing it before the development will cause internal injury.


Thus, as in the YKT slt transform drill , it is design by using the proven healing therapeutic drll to develop ones breathing, qi flow, six bow, snake engine, and the natural body weight wave. Target to develop a solid neigong which is capable of the WCK pulse Jin. And even if one doesn't get there one still get the health and strengthening part if practice properly.

Why it is called slt transform? Because it exposes one to the full body function including the body weight wave where most people stuck in the hold structure and lock into just arm movements. In aware of there are lots and lots going on in ones body mind while doing slt.

So, is yjkym a lock rooting stance? According to yik kam wing Chun 1850 , No. It is a platform of everything is dynamic alive. Thus, no part of body should be lock. Not the knee, elbow, or toes. Everything got to be natural. Because the goal is to develop flow.

[nasmedicine]

I'm sure most of us have seen lots of spectacular "Chi Blast" demonstrations done by world famous masters on YouTube. But have you noticed that these demos were done mostly on students, and on people already in the game, but NEVER duplicated on an average Joe in the audience in such a spectacular fashion?

For those of you unaware of my background, this is what I used to do a lot. This clip was made 6 years ago:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZEx3KZ5Wio

Is this real? Yes, but with a biiiiiiiig "BUT"..... here is why.

Most of these demos focus on the ISSUING OF POWER, which is actually the EASIEST part. To make the demonstration spectacular, the demonstrator would need to lock on to the mind and body of the subject very precisely, so the power can go through completely unopposed. Of which, if the subject is corporative and has the skills to line himself up precisely, the result is spectacular. But if the subject is NOT corporative, nor has the required skills to coordinate with the demonstrator, the demonstration would at best, be mediocre.

In real fights, the real skills is the invisible "Listening, Asking, Locking" of the opponent. The "issuing of power" is the visible spectacular easy part. And no-one, is going to just stand there and let you take control of their mind/body/centre of gravity/power generating pathway.

This type of training does, however, have it's LIMITED place in developing skills; much like, we train with the Wooden Dummy to fine tune our coordination and power, although the the Dummy never hits back; except in this case, a real person is acting as the "Dummy", so that we can train internal alignment, mental projections etc. while the person doesn't hit back just like the dummy. A good training partner can also, vary the degree of "corporation", to make it easy or hard, and to guide you like a "training wheel" like we first learn to ride. But not everyone of us learn with the training wheel and can still ride.

Unfortunately, a lot of people, Masters alike, are over obsessed with this type of things. They see it as the "Holy Grail", losing track of the real world, living only in fantasy land. Many Masters won't demonstrate on strangers because they KNOW it does not work that way. Some are honest, and would tell you straight up it wouldn't work; but some would make excuses like "I don't want to hurt you" or "you will get internal injuries by my Chi Blast" etc. And some, being totally delusional, thinking they can reproduce it cleanly in real fights, get their head smacked. :p

So, it is REAL under a certain context; FAKE if anyone claims to have super-human powers; and I hope I managed to shed some light on WHAT'S GOING ON.

Excellent post John. Great demo as well.

[LoneTiger108]

So, is yjkym a lock rooting stance? According to yik kam wing Chun 1850 , No. It is a platform of everything is dynamic alive. Thus, no part of body should be lock. Not the knee, elbow, or toes. Everything got to be natural. Because the goal is to develop flow.

Thanks for sharing too Hendrik, I find this statement very very true to my own experience. You can actually 'see' this working in my recent clips of our TMAS demo too, if anybody is interested... :)

[Hendrik]

Thanks for sharing too Hendrik, I find this statement very very true to my own experience. You can actually 'see' this working in my recent clips of our TMAS demo too, if anybody is interested... :)

Please share your clip !

[Vajramusti]

Thanks for sharing too Hendrik, I find this statement very very true to my own experience. You can actually 'see' this working in my recent clips of our TMAS demo too, if anybody is interested... :)
---------------------------------------------
Spencer- a previous response disappeared in cyberspace. FWIW what Hendrik seems to be talking about is different from what appears to be shown in your clips.

[imperialtaichi]

Excellent post John. Great demo as well.

Thanks. I mostly stay out of these types of demos these days, as it can be interpreted wrongly and create misunderstanding.

What do I see as Neigong? Any Gong based on the interactions/manipulation of Shen Yi Qi.

[YouKnowWho]

I mostly stay out of these types of demos these days, ...

Because you and I all believe that there are much more important training to do in our life such as "How to land our fist on our opponent's face when he is moving around." :D

[imperialtaichi]

Because you and I all believe that there are much more important training to do in our life such as "How to land our fist on our opponent's face when he is moving around." :D

Haha, it's like "Spoon Bending."

Some people bend spoons using "psychic power"; which is kinda cool.

I just use fingers. ;)

[Runlikehell]

Fingers are the easy way, but once you get into ways of moving the fingers to reach the opponent's face it becomes rather complicated. :)

[imperialtaichi]

I just use fingers. ;)

I mean bending spoon with fingers ;)

[LoneTiger108]

---------------------------------------------
Spencer- a previous response disappeared in cyberspace. FWIW what Hendrik seems to be talking about is different from what appears to be shown in your clips.

I'm not talking about the whole clip Joy, just the interactive section where myself and my kung fu bro are stationary, maintaining an 'alive' YJKYM, to receive the students interactive sets as they move around our square, angled and side body alignment ;)

IMHO This type of training builds what Hendrik is talking about. May not be his way of doing it, but beleive me it brings a certain life to your root... notice when we are outside we hold our ground, and when we are back to back we start to initiate basic legwork.

http://youtu.be/tx0ID9XEZ6E?hd=1&t=1m36s

[Hendrik]

It is always great to see wcners made progress!

[imperialtaichi]

So how do you tell, if someone is doing good Neigong form/exercise?

Internal dynamics follows this rule: Shen (the General) dictates to the Yi (the Commanding Officer), Yi carries out the order and directs Qi (the Foot Soldiers) and Qi moves the body. This line of command cannot be broken down, otherwise the body would be doing things without direction and purpose.

When someone is demonstrating some exercise/form, when the rules are observed, you will see focus, consolidation, purpose, and you could almost see the energy structure extended beyond the body; EVERY part of the body, even when doing different things, works in unison with each other. When the rules are not observed, you will see arms waving around disjointed from intention, broken from the rest of the body.

You see this not just in Martial Artists, but musicians, artists and top level sports people when they "get in the zone."

So if you want to make the MOST out of your solo training, observe and follow this rule.

[Hendrik]

So how do you tell, if someone is doing good Neigong form/exercise?

Internal dynamics follows this rule: Shen (the General) dictates to the Yi (the Commanding Officer), Yi carries out the order and directs Qi (the Foot Soldiers) and Qi moves the body. This line of command cannot be broken down, otherwise the body would be doing things without direction and purpose.

When someone is demonstrating some exercise/form, when the rules are observed, you will see focus, consolidation, purpose, and you could almost see the energy structure extended beyond the body; EVERY part of the body, even when doing different things, works in unison with each other. When the rules are not observed, you will see arms waving around disjointed from intention, broken from the rest of the body.

You see this not just in Martial Artists, but musicians, artists and top level sports people when they "get in the zone."

So if you want to make the MOST out of your solo training, observe and follow this rule.


Great post!

[LoneTiger108]

When someone is demonstrating some exercise/form, when the rules are observed, you will see focus, consolidation, purpose, and you could almost see the energy structure extended beyond the body; EVERY part of the body, even when doing different things, works in unison with each other. When the rules are not observed, you will see arms waving around disjointed from intention, broken from the rest of the body.

Did you see any evidence you suggest in our stage performance John? It would be cool to hear your view. And be honest. The guys had less than 20hrs preparation after a pretty long cold spell...

[imperialtaichi]

Did you see any evidence you suggest in our stage performance John? It would be cool to hear your view. And be honest. The guys had less than 20hrs preparation after a pretty long cold spell...

I would say yes.... and no. Here is why.

The biggest obstacle to Neigong is when you have to think about it; a concert pianist has to practice his piece 1000 times, because if he had to think about the piece he has no flow. Magic comes only when he let his thoughts go and let the music flow.

In case of your demo, since your guys had only very little time to remember and practice, while it was great the heavily choreographed parts I don't see it.

Where as, in other parts, where you guys were showing things that you've been practicing 1000 times before, what I described was definitely present. You were "in the zone".

The funny thing is, on the rehearsal clip, where you guys were just mucking around (without thinking), it was also present.

[YouKnowWho]

a concert pianist has to practice his piece 1000 times, because if he had to think about the piece he has no flow. Magic comes only when he let his thoughts go and let the music flow.
Agree!

The best demo should be the same as your daily training. It's important that your daily training can also be a combat reality demo. After all if your daily training cannot map into a nice impressive demo, your daily training may be too boring.

[Happy Tiger]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3F3ovb2kZ9Q&feature=related
Real or Fake?

[imperialtaichi]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3F3ovb2kZ9Q&feature=related
Real or Fake?

Hello HT, I do not know well enough to judge. I can only present my personal opinion.

On one hand, many of the things he did can be reproduced by magicians.

On the other hand, human beings are electrical, so some of the things may be biologically possible? Don't know.

On a scientific level, observations and data collection from a single group cannot be viewed as solid proof or disproof.

On a philosophical level, I always maintain our level of understanding reality can be very limited due to limitations of the human brain.

[Happy Tiger]

Hello HT, I do not know well enough to judge. I can only present my personal opinion.

On one hand, many of the things he did can be reproduced by magicians.

On the other hand, human beings are electrical, so some of the things may be biologically possible? Don't know.

On a scientific level, observations and data collection from a single group cannot be viewed as solid proof or disproof.

On a philosophical level, I always maintain our level of understanding reality can be very limited due to limitations of the human brain.
maybe natural ability augmented by internal development? He seems ernest. Like most here, I know the 'tricks' but this fellow gave me pause. He certainly doesn't need to recharge his cell phone much :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Honestly, every single "chi demo" I have seen, I have seen "duplicated" by non-tcma people.
Can't think of one that I haven't (off the top of my head)...

[Hendrik]

Honestly, every single "chi demo" I have seen, I have seen "duplicated" by non-tcma people.
Can't think of one that I haven't (off the top of my head)...

Because these are tricks only.

And qi exist in human body tcma or not tcma.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Because these are tricks only.

And qi exist in human body tcma or not tcma.

I wouldn't go as far as to call them "tricks" because they do require skill and ability and most people when they think "tricks" think "tricking people".
All that and more can be explained by physics, bio mechanics and biochemistry.

[Hendrik]

Honestly, every single "chi demo" I have seen, I have seen "duplicated" by non-tcma people.
Can't think of one that I haven't (off the top of my head)...

The qi demo cannot be duplicated by non qi developer is the circle of ren and du medirians.

One can hock brain wave measurement instrument, thermal analyzer to the real deal. And see what it is. And non developer which doesn't have the development cannot do that. Even qi developer with no real Kung fu cannot do that.


Doesn't matter how one likes to explain. Without that Kung fu, one cannot do it. With the Kung fu, or neigong one can repeat it as one prefer and use that to reverse sickness and or injury. That is a fact of qi development.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The qi demo cannot be duplicated by non qi developer is the circle of ren and du medirians.

One can hock brain wave measurement instrument, thermal analyzer to the real deal. And see what it is. And non developer which doesn't have the development cannot do that. Even qi developer with no real Kung fu cannot do that.


Doesn't matter how one likes to explain. Without that Kung fu, one cannot do it. With the Kung fu, or neigong one can repeat it as one prefer and use that to reverse sickness and or injury. That is a fact of qi development.

You need to get out more.

[Hebrew Hammer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3F3ovb2kZ9Q&feature=related
Real or Fake?

I love this vid, I'd certainly like to think this type of skill development is possible, I am skeptical until I felt or saw it in person. The interesting part of this vid to me, is that they never mention how successful his healing treatments are....only that he can generate some sort of neurochemical or electrical impulse.

Biologically speaking, we are full of chemical electrical impulses and with billions of humans walking the earth, there are bound to be some who are superior conductors or grounders of electrical impulses. Just out of genetic variation. Fun stuff.

[Hendrik]

I love this vid, I'd certainly like to think this type of skill development is possible, I am skeptical until I felt or saw it in person. The interesting part of this vid to me, is that they never mention how successful his healing treatments are....only that he can generate some sort of neurochemical or electrical impulse.

Biologically speaking, we are full of chemical electrical impulses and with billions of humans walking the earth, there are bound to be some who are superior conductors or grounders of electrical impulses. Just out of genetic variation. Fun stuff.



Excellent pont.


Neigong of qi development , the real deal has very strong healing capability. It is different then this magic stuffs or those new age visualization or pseudo cult stuffs.

[LoneTiger108]

In case of your demo, since your guys had only very little time to remember and practice, while it was great the heavily choreographed parts I don't see it.

Where as, in other parts, where you guys were showing things that you've been practicing 1000 times before, what I described was definitely present. You were "in the zone".

The funny thing is, on the rehearsal clip, where you guys were just mucking around (without thinking), it was also present.

Thanks for your feedback