Wing Chun Community

[Wayfaring]

From another thread...


Sanjuro- there is no wing chun community- minimally a very dysfunctional one.


Does everyone agree with this statement? Somehow many other arts (like BJJ and MMA) seem to have very rich interactive communities. Here's one example - one guy traveled the world and trained all over for free - http://www.bjjglobetrotter.com/

Does wing chun have a community?

Is it dysfunctional?

What to do?

[sanjuro_ronin]

From another thread...



Does everyone agree with this statement? Somehow many other arts (like BJJ and MMA) seem to have very rich interactive communities. Here's one example - one guy traveled the world and trained all over for free - http://www.bjjglobetrotter.com/

Does wing chun have a community?

Is it dysfunctional?

What to do?

Compared to other MA?
Perhaps...
Before the political crap, Kyokushin was a nice big family and ANYONE was welcome at any dojo, just like Judo.
Not anymore.
WC is a lot like that, too much politics.
Too much division base don theory and not enough union based on the one common element that ALL WC people should have: Fighting.

[k gledhill]

My Theory :D

“Sometimes people hold a core belief that is very strong. When they are
presented with evidence that works against that belief, the new
evidence cannot be accepted. It would create a feeling that is
extremely uncomfortable, called cognitive dissonance. And because it
is so important to protect the core belief, they will rationalize,
ignore and even deny anything that doesn't fit in with the core belief.”
― Frantz Fanon

[sanjuro_ronin]

My Theory :D

Its a fine theory except that it should NOT apply to MA.
Why?
Because in MA every theory CAN be tested.
As such, ANY view of WC that is put forth CAN and SHOULD be tested in the ONLY manner that ANY view can be tested in a MA: Practical Combat.

In boxing, if someone comes up with a "new" move or theory or principle, what do they do?
They test it in the ring.
Same for Judo or MT or BJJ or MMA or any style that is trained with CONTACT VS an opponent that is trying to fight back.
The only time cognative dissonance is a factor is when the theory can't be tested to show it to be correct or invalid.
NONE of that applies to WC.

[desertwingchun2]

“Sometimes people hold a core belief that is very strong. When they are
presented with evidence that works against that belief, the new
evidence cannot be accepted. It would create a feeling that is
extremely uncomfortable, called cognitive dissonance. And because it
is so important to protect the core belief, they will rationalize,
ignore and even deny anything that doesn't fit in with the core belief.”
― Frantz Fanon

To expand on that, a persons "reality" is formed by the individual's belief system. So in a very real sense, when a "belief system" is challenged, a persons "reality" is "threatened" as well. The reaction to one's reality being threatened is to protect one's reality.

This is from a recent read in Scientific American.

[WC1277]

I think everyone is still welcome at the majority of schools but per definition I'd say no. The closest would be a particular lineage one generation down would be a community. It is really no different from the old' days. Recognized masters might get together to share but you'd rarely see their students intermingling. A lot of it has to do with devotion to ones teacher and whether someone has completed their particular system or not. Once you've made something your own and went as deep as you're capable, then you should be open. But to learn a skill one really needs to go through it in its entirety first IMO. It would be like wanting to be able to be an astronaught captain but expecting to have the skill to fly it without ever being in the military flying regular aircraft. IMO the amount of different approaches to WC doesn't really allow someone to learn a little here and a little there and expect to be nothing more than a jack of 'some' trades but a master of none. I'm not incredibly proficient on my MMA knowledge but haven't some of the most successful fighters been rather qualified within their own MA of choice before deciding to even get into MMA?? If that's true, I think it speaks volumes about not only MMA but this supposed WC community as well. Just my opinion....

[sanjuro_ronin]

To expand on that, a persons "reality" is formed by the individual's belief system. So in a very real sense, when a "belief system" is challenged, a persons "reality" is "threatened" as well. The reaction to one's reality being threatened is to protect one's reality.

This is from a recent read in Scientific American.

Which in of it self is fine.
The issue is HOW does one "protect" ones reality.

[nasmedicine]

I can't speak for the entire community because I haven't been to every single school or have met every single person who practices WC. Furthermore if one is using the the activity on this for to make their comments then their view of the reality of WC is very very distorted (there are million of people who don't care to involve themselves in these forums).

At the school that I currently train and have been doing so for many years we have a very open door policy and are extremely friendly. Many people have come to visit from various corners of the US and even some parts of Europe and have become long lasting friends with our school. The Pan Nam headquarters even has our banner hanging in their main office due to the friendship we have created with them through open exchange with one another's art form. I feel this is because we do/did not try to impose upon them/anyone our methodology and way of thinking.

We never try to tell anyone that THEY ARE WRONG especially not without first giving them the opportunity to try and prove their point some how or some way. This of course doesn't mean that we necessarily agree either, however we always give everyone we meet/visits us the benefit of the doubt. With this type of thinking both parties in the end walk away with more then what they have came in with.

- Cheers

Nirav

[GlennR]

From another thread...



Does everyone agree with this statement? Somehow many other arts (like BJJ and MMA) seem to have very rich interactive communities. Here's one example - one guy traveled the world and trained all over for free - http://www.bjjglobetrotter.com/

Does wing chun have a community?

Is it dysfunctional?

What to do?

Id agree with Joy.
There is some intermingling of schools via curious students and/or open minded instructors but on the whole no.

But the question id have is why would you want one?

In another thread SR comments that there is different types of chi-sao (id agree) with a different emphasis on what and how they want to achieve things.... and lets be honest, chi-sao is the focus on everybodys chi-sao

So are you saying lets all blend, work out the "best way" and standardise?
Or more along the lines of an open door, interschool fights and sparring?

If its the 1st option id say no, but i think the second option would be good

[Lee Chiang Po]

There is a wing chun community, but it is made up of small and isolated schools and groups. I can spend the next 10 years looking for another chunner here and never find one, or anyone that knows what it is. I have to use the yellow pages. So it is not that large a community.
Here on this forum is might seem so, but this forum is made up of a lot of googlers. You can mention any style or system and someone is going to reflect on it as if expert on the subject. Even made up ones. Fighting takes place here all the time, but it does not represent the actual wing chun community at large.

[nasmedicine]

There is a wing chun community, but it is made up of small and isolated schools and groups. I can spend the next 10 years looking for another chunner here and never find one, or anyone that knows what it is. I have to use the yellow pages. So it is not that large a community.
Here on this forum is might seem so, but this forum is made up of a lot of googlers. You can mention any style or system and someone is going to reflect on it as if expert on the subject. Even made up ones. Fighting takes place here all the time, but it does not represent the actual wing chun community at large.

Well said and I agree.

[Robinhood]

Its a little different than other arts, quality depends a lot on trail of teachings , over time and teachers WC evolves from original art to many hybrid styles using the same name but having different application and reasoning why they do what they do.

Since most people think their art is the real WC, they don't want to be associated with the guys doing it wrong or different.

Since WC is more applications oriented these differences are greater than styles that just do forms or sets and external punching and kicking drills with very little interaction between practitioners.



Cheers

[imperialtaichi]

Too much talk, too little physical interactions, too much fantasy.

[nasmedicine]

Its a little different than other arts, quality depends a lot on trail of teachings , over time and teachers WC evolves from original art to many hybrid styles using the same name but having different application and reasoning why they do what they do.

Since most people think their art is the real WC, they don't want to be associated with the guys doing it wrong or different.

Since WC is more applications oriented these differences are greater than styles that just do forms or sets and external punching and kicking drills with very little interaction between practitioners.



Cheers

Good insight, you're right about those who don't like to mix it up with others to do it differently. In my experience there are those who practice their wing Chun in an almost religious like manner and then there're those who are not afraid to think outside the box.

[couch]

From another thread...



Does everyone agree with this statement? Somehow many other arts (like BJJ and MMA) seem to have very rich interactive communities. Here's one example - one guy traveled the world and trained all over for free - http://www.bjjglobetrotter.com/

Does wing chun have a community?


Yes. Just not here.

[Vajramusti]

Yes. Just not here.
------------------------------------------------------------
For sure.

[wingchunIan]

IMO yes there is a community but it is becoming more and more fractured with each passing generation as desperate egos try to justify what they do and make ever more exaggerated marketing claims.

[LoneTiger108]

There is, I believe, a pretty strong Wing Chun community in my home town of London. By community, I mean that everybody seems to know each other and have crossed paths and hands over the years. There is quite a good respect between everyone from what I have witnessed but I must admit I have kept myself to myself and only really ventured out to my own direct family in recent years.

It was a challenge for me to meet the people I have and I really see why it can be difficult when people start involving politics and money!

I think an International community needs to be developed more, so we can all benefit from eachothers experiences but I'm not too confident anything like this will ever happen on a large scale.

I liked the idea of training 'travellers' for free :D

[rogerlee36]

Hong Kong has more sense of the community for the Wing Chun style than USA.

White poeple just cannot get along :D

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=rogerlee36;1174652]Hong Kong has more sense of the community for the Wing Chun style than USA.

-------------------------------------------------

For sure.

[Happy Tiger]

[QUOTE=rogerlee36;1174652]Hong Kong has more sense of the community for the Wing Chun style than USA.

-------------------------------------------------

For sure.
When I was at the VTAA in '95, the motto 'once you pick you cannot go between floors" still echoed but I agree, VT was something eagerly shared by all. I am very happy to be umungst the ving tsun community. The forum is the least of these. In Vancouver much of my training was at Kuen Way martial arts supply in the heart of Chinatown where I worked and trained. Players from all local VT houses and all gung fu schools came to share often.Many times well known sifu and fighters dropped by...maybe some of you... And many edgy MA fighters from every where including action stars and stunt folk doing movies at the time and hungry MMA hopefuls and vets came to call with our little group in the back being the only 'action'. So much respect and learning/sharing..and testing. To me VT is my heart and community in many ways. That's why I lamed out abit ago over the forum style of working stuff out. When fighters are face to face, we don't talk that way,ever...unless ya want the mat. I was very lucky in my experiences, I can see now

[nasmedicine]

When fighters are face to face, we don't talk that way,ever...unless ya want the mat. I was very lucky in my experiences, I can see now

Your words ring so very true, something many on this forum should reflect on.

[LoneTiger108]

White poeple just cannot get along :D

I find it very interesting that this sort of comment can go by with nobody saying a ****-bird! And somehow I knew that Joy would agree too :rolleyes:

[Vajramusti]

I find it very interesting that this sort of comment can go by with nobody saying a ****-bird! And somehow I knew that Joy would agree too :rolleyes:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What gives????? Lone Tiger-Jumping to conclusions carelessly.I agreed that there is greater civility among
HK WC schools than there is in the US atleast on forums. I did not comment on the reference to color.

[LoneTiger108]

I did not comment on the reference to color.

No need to Joy but you responded to that post which, imho, is just as bad.

I have read enough stuff from you over the years about us Brits to have already left an impression and this hasn't helped.

[Vajramusti]

No need to Joy but you responded to that post which, imho, is just as bad.

I have read enough stuff from you over the years about us Brits to have already left an impression and this hasn't helped.
-------------------------------------------------------------

His comment on the relative lack of rancor in the wc world in HK was on target. I ignored his other
reference (or choice of words)to "whites". Do you understand distinctions?

My comments on "Brits" did not use race as a point of definition-they were about politics and aspects of culture.Do you understand distinctions? Sheesh!!

[Ali. R]

I understand what you’re saying Joy, but when I’d seen that post; I couldn’t help but shutter from disbelieve, and I do strongly believe that most people feel the same way as I do. But that’s just his personal POV (nothing wrong with that).

And by connecting yourself to that statement, even just the first half of it would easily connect you to the second part of that post even more; by not being white.

I’m not trying to tell you what to do/say, but I do believe that you have the capability to express your opinion without quoting that post in which I find very confusing/unsettling.

My PPOV,

[sanjuro_ronin]

[QUOTE=rogerlee36;1174652]Hong Kong has more sense of the community for the Wing Chun style than USA.

-------------------------------------------------

For sure.

Not sure what you guys are talking about, Joy here clearly is agreeing with the part he quoted from.
Nothing to do with this remark:

White poeple just cannot get along

Which, by the way, had a big smilie on it.

I think you guys are seeing what you want to see, not what is there...

[rogerlee36]

No need to Joy but you responded to that post which, imho, is just as bad.

I have read enough stuff from you over the years about us Brits to have already left an impression and this hasn't helped.

You are very sensitive, perhaps too much time on the femnine side of wing chun? ;)

[Happy Tiger]

I love the irony of this bend in the thread! :) So, does 'white people' like comprise 'the rest of the whole world less the Chinese, 'Western' or otherwise? :)
I always wanted to be an 'evil white guy' in a Chinese Kung Fu movie!!:cool:
I thought those guys were white. You know, speaking with watchyacallit...'cultural imperative'.. ;)

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1174691]

Not sure what you guys are talking about, Joy here clearly is agreeing with the part he quoted from.
Nothing to do with this remark:


Which, by the way, had a big smilie on it.

I think you guys are seeing what you want to see, not what is there...
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
True. I was clear on the distinction.I have no control over what Spencer thinks.

I think that I will pass up on English tea for penance for a while.Is there such a thing as English tea?

Much ado about nothing.

[Ali. R]

Much ado about nothing.

Joy,

I’m sure you have a good heart, but I just can’t see it that way because he has a strong point. Myself being a ‘Blackman’, I’ve heard the same response over and over again from almost every culture I’ve ran into.

The thing is to recognize others pain from your own experience, but to take them as contempt will only make the issue harden with suppression; not saying that you did anything wrong, but,,,, it will feel a lot different if it was the other way around.

All I’m saying is just recognize that (to yourself) and I’m sure the four words of your last statement would feel totally contradictory on how you may feel at this moment…:confused:

Take care,

[WC1277]

I think all of you who are upset with Joy are being a little ridiculous and unfair IMO. It was very clear what he quoted and what he agreed with. Why is everyone jumping on him and not 'rogerlee' or whatever his name is if you're so upset? He's the one who actually said the comment and even then, it was obvious sarcasm. Somewhat true sarcasm IMO. :D

And Spencer, how do you feel about Americans? Honestly? Most of the world hates us and I'm not crying about it. Am I not allowed to express MY distaste for a particular cultural environment without being labeled racist? Can I not say to each his own, honestly not pass judgement on the actual participants and yet still not partake? Your logic is so hypocritical. Using your train of thought I would be wrong for saying I don't like the drug culture or that I'm not taking the misses to a swingers party anytime soon! Or how about British comedy. I think it's horrible but I'm sure there's something distinctly American you find horrible too. Why don't people recognize racism for what it truly is instead of attaching it to all kinds of non related crap. I don't dislike the Brits because of their race or genetic makeup but I dislike the general British way of doing things(sans the music;)) and that my friend is not racist or "unbelievable". Agree with your local organized crime syndicates cultural exchange and then you might have a point but until then, grab a tissue...

[Ali. R]

This have nothing to do with right and wrong; again, no one said that ‘Joy’ did anything wrong but ‘Spencer’ himself.

And those types’ of comments shouldn’t be welcomed/condone by anyone in everyday life, I’ve been called the N word many times and with a smile too, does that make it right?

[WC1277]

This have nothing to do with right and wrong; again, no one said that ‘Joy’ did anything wrong but ‘Spencer’ himself.

And those types’ of comments shouldn’t be welcomed/condone by anyone in everyday life, I’ve been called the N word many times and with a smile too, does that make it right?

And I've been called a gringo, cracker, liberal, white trash, etc. all with a smile as well. And to top it off, all of those phrases are allowed in popular media. Is it wrong? If it offended me, then I guess yes it would be. Am I offended? I don't care. To me, IMO it appears that what actually divides the most in 'race discourse' has more to do with the offended group banding together and identifying those comments to the race of whom the individual that said them belongs than to the actual individual himself. If that wasn't the case, then why can most racial comments be said amongst their own racial group without care, yet it only matters when one of a different race says it. Just my observation....

[Vajramusti]

A good chor ma turn and the water and dirt goes flying. No worries.

[Ali. R]

And I've been called a gringo, cracker, liberal, white trash, etc. all with a smile as well. And to top it off, all of those phrases are allowed in popular media. Is it wrong? If it offended me, then I guess yes it would be. Am I offended? I don't care. To me, IMO it appears that what actually divides the most in 'race discourse' has more to do with the offended group banding together and identifying those comments to the race of whom the individual that said them belongs than to the actual individual himself. If that wasn't the case, then why can most racial comments be said amongst their own racial group without care, yet it only matters when one of a different race says it. Just my observation....

I see what you’re saying, I was brought up not to say those words because it may hurt people in the process, but sometimes you just can’t get away from it, you’re right; that’s entrainment (favorite song or movie) because one can love the track and may not feel for some of the lyrics, but you have a choice.

I didn’t let it bother me as well (being called names) at least they didn’t see it, and you don’t have a choice but to deal with or hear it when it’s openly voiced towards you or anyone else that may be around (like my children), and it hurts a lot by not having a choice.

But,,, I just can’t see anything pleasant while calling anyone derogatory names, where I’m from that could very well get you killed, even by your own race.

But your point is taken,

[Ali. R]

A good chor ma turn and the water and dirt goes flying. No worries.

There is nothing dirty on what’s being said here, someone was hurt based off a comment that you quoted and remarks that you made in the pass, no one is doing/done anything to you Joy, and the only dirt that’s flying around is yours.

Why fight when you should make peace with him personally. Believe me, this does not look good, I really don’t understand, you are a leader and a voice here of this forum, it harden my heart that you can’t identified or see what he’s saying.

Maybe it’s just me, why worry about people and relationships in the wing chun community? You don't get it; he’s one of us and we have to start somewhere when dealing with something as sensitive as this…

WT#%*

[Vajramusti]

There is nothing dirty on what’s being said here, someone was hurt based off a comment that you quoted and remarks that you made in the pass, no one is doing/done anything to you Joy, and the only dirt that’s flying around is yours.

Why fight when you should make peace with him personally. Believe me, this does not look good, I really don’t understand, you are a leader and a voice here of this forum, it harden my heart that you can’t identified or see what he’s saying.

Maybe it’s just me, why worry about people and relationships in the wing chun community? You don't get it; he’s one of us and we have to start somewhere when dealing with something as sensitive as this…

WT#%*
--------------------------------------------------
Ali- Spencer may have a beef with the second part of RogerLees post-he should have none with me.
Sanjuro got it right. To the best of my knowledge, I have made NO racist comments. Cultures and politics? Yes.

BTW I do like Waltzing Matilda better than God Save the Queen and Sakamoto's Sukiyaki better than the current Japanese anthem. Racist comments?- decidedly not

[GlennR]

BTW I do like Waltzing Matilda better than God Save the Queen

Ill agree with you there Joy

[Jeff_H]

Why fight when you should make peace with him personally. Believe me, this does not look good, I really don’t understand, you are a leader and a voice here of this forum, it harden my heart that you can’t identified or see what he’s saying.

Maybe it’s just me, why worry about people and relationships in the wing chun community? You don't get it; he’s one of us and we have to start somewhere when dealing with something as sensitive as this…

WT#%*Joy is a leader of what or who on this forum? He does not believe in this community by his own words. Not the kind thing a leader would say. Is he special here from everyone else? I don't think so.

Joy is just someone with an opinion and something to share or not share. Who here is special case beside Hendrik who speaks for us all? Haha.

[Vajramusti]

Joy is a leader of what or who on this forum? He does not believe in this community by his own words. Not the kind thing a leader would say. Is he special here from everyone else? I don't think so.

Joy is just someone with an opinion and something to share or not share. Who here is special case beside Hendrik who speaks for us all? Haha.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

True.

Neither a leader nor a follower be
Maybe the truth could make you free.

[Ali. R]

--------------------------------------------------
Ali- Spencer may have a beef with the second part of RogerLees post-he should have none with me.
Sanjuro got it right. To the best of my knowledge, I have made NO racist comments. Cultures and politics? Yes.

BTW I do like Waltzing Matilda better than God Save the Queen and Sakamoto's Sukiyaki better than the current Japanese anthem. Racist comments?- decidedly not

Nobody called you a racist; not even close but you beginning to sound like one in defense. The only reason why he has a problem is because: one would think that you would put yourself above that kind of comment/post.

When most here had the common sense to run from it; but yet, you quoted it and your defense falls in the category of “I’m somewhat/almost pregnant” by doing so.

If you feel good about it then its ok with me, I’ve just don’t the balls to touch something like that comment/post and try to make good sense/reason out of it and while knowing what’s on the other end of it, as well…

Cheers,

[Ali. R]

Joy is a leader of what or who on this forum? He does not believe in this community by his own words. Not the kind thing a leader would say. Is he special here from everyone else? I don't think so.

Joy is just someone with an opinion and something to share or not share. Who here is special case beside Hendrik who speaks for us all? Haha.

My bad,

I’ve put too much faith in ‘Joy’.

[Vajramusti]

Nobody called you a racist; not even close but you beginning to sound like one in defense. The only reason why he has a problem is because: one would think that you would put yourself above that kind of comment/post.

When most here had the common sense to run from it; but yet, you quoted it and your defense falls in the category of “I’m somewhat/almost pregnant” by doing so.

If you feel good about it then its ok with me, I’ve just don’t the balls to touch something like that comment/post and try to make good sense/reason out of it and while knowing what’s on the other end of it, as well…

Cheers,
-----------------------------------------------------------

Ali- in dealing with statements and paragraphs, one can use a scalpel and not a hammer and separate

things not logically related to one another.. I have been to Hong Kong several times.
WC schools go about their own business-different from the noise outside of HK and on some forums including this one. The logic of Lee's two sentences were different from each other. Person's can make true statements and then also make some outlandish statements.

[Ali. R]

We're just two different people, if I see someone hurt from what I’ve said or done and especially from confusion dealing with race, I would feel bad; and would want to clear it up. Because I’ve had many people play down what they’d said or done to me in pass as if it wasn’t anything wrong with it.

You just went were most wouldn’t dare go (very surprised), that’s all. You really got balls.

[Vajramusti]

You really got balls.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

?? Last time I checked- why-yeah.

[Ali. R]

They’re not that big, $5000 dollar bet for all to see; in fact I’ll give you the money just to see how much you got.

[nasmedicine]

[QUOTE=rogerlee36;1174652]Hong Kong has more sense of the community for the Wing Chun style than USA.

-------------------------------------------------

For sure.

Anybody with even the slightest bit reading comprehension can easily see Joy is choosing only to comment on the statement that he quotes in his post. If he was going to quote the other statement he obviously would have included it in his post. Case closed.

[Ali. R]

We are all humans’ beings, and you just don’t make a quote of something in that caliber and not acknowledge those who’ve been hurt; where is the humanity in that.

I just can’t find the logic in going anywhere near that type of energy and will fight with and against those who fail to see it, or find it amusing and ok.

[EternalSpring]

There def is a Ving Tsun community, it's just hard to find since a significant amount of people want to talk about how they're open minded even though they label anything that differs from what they do as "not Ving Tsun." I'm grateful that Chunners dont rule the world, cuz we'd probably see segregation back in full force, starting with different drinking fountains for diff lineages

[WC1277]

Hey I'm White.... White people just cannot get along :D..... there, is it settled now?

[Vajramusti]

They’re not that big, $5000 dollar bet for all to see; in fact I’ll give you the money just to see how much you got.
--------------------------------------------

??I am not following you!!!

[Vajramusti]

Here and there between open minded people who agree to share there are elements of community-otherwise specially on this forum-I would say no.

[EternalSpring]

--------------------------------------------

??I am not following you!!!

You just got offered 5000 bucks to show your balls. Which is pretty impressive imo, considering that most people wouldn't get paid that much to do a lot more!

[Ali. R]

Obvious something is wrong, some kind of life change or something, money, health people you may know. Because men of my age or older just wouldn’t go there with other people sensitivity and reactions of this nature.:(

Interesting,

[Ali. R]

Here and there between open minded people who agree to share there are elements of community-otherwise specially on this forum-I would say no.

Joy,

Don’t you have a ‘Benny Meng’ joke you could go tell somewhere; I do see that nothing is beneath you at all.

Very surprising,

[GlennR]

Joy,

Don’t you have a ‘Benny Meng’ joke you could go tell somewhere; I do see that nothing is beneath you at all.

Very surprising,

And whats not surprising is you going on and on about something which never happened in the 1st place

Your choice to read what you read, but you are wrong, simply wrong, in playing this race game with Joy

[sanjuro_ronin]

And this thread has just demonstrated why the WC community has issues, LOL !

[GlennR]

And this thread has just demonstrated why the WC community has issues, LOL !

Not the thread so much as someone pushing his own agenda

[sanjuro_ronin]

Not the thread so much as someone pushing his own agenda

That's my point dude, the WC community is full of guys "pushing their agenda".

[Ali. R]

My choice, to read what someone else felt, all based upon race or did that never happen? No one stood up for me when my wife was insulted on this forum and no one ever apologies as well, so your theory is full of holes.

I tried giving him the benefit of doubt by saying he didn’t do anything wrong, he has chosen his own path. Meanwhile there is someone hurt over all of this; therefore I just don’t have an open mind to act as if nothing has happen like you can.

And now you’re saying that I’m wrong for accepting and acknowledging his pain, come on, when no one else would, where’s the community in that?

[GlennR]

My choice, to read what someone else felt, all based upon race or did that never happen? No one stood up for me when my wife was insulted on this forum and no one ever apologies as well, so your theory is full of holes.

I tried giving him the benefit of doubt by saying he didn’t do anything wrong, he has chosen his own path. Meanwhile there is someone hurt over all of this; therefore I just don’t have an open mind to act as if nothing has happen like you can.

And now you’re saying that I’m wrong for accepting and acknowledging his pain, come on, when no one else would?

Nothing happened. You have either imagined it or want to happen so you can play the race game..... simple.
Not sure where/how your wife came into it?

Mate, its a simple forum where people type things on a screen trying to share a bit of knowledge, have a dig at each other (hi Spencer!) and maybe even make some friends.
Ive had my moments with Joy (and others) but you are beating a drum no one is marching to in this case

[Ali. R]

If we're trying to make friends here then why I’m I such a bad person for caring about others?:confused:

[sanjuro_ronin]

My choice, to read what someone else felt, all based upon race or did that never happen? No one stood up for me when my wife was insulted on this forum and no one ever apologies as well, so your theory is full of holes.

I tried giving him the benefit of doubt by saying he didn’t do anything wrong, he has chosen his own path. Meanwhile there is someone hurt over all of this; therefore I just don’t have an open mind to act as if nothing has happen like you can.

And now you’re saying that I’m wrong for accepting and acknowledging his pain, come on, when no one else would, where’s the community in that?

You can NOT READ into what someone else FELT, you can only interpret what they wrote based on what you read and HOW you read it to mean.
In short, you understood what Joy wrote based on what you wanted to understand.

He NEVER agreed with the comment (that was done in jest) about white people, which was perfectly clear since he never mentioned or quoted it in his reply.
What you did was read what ANOTHER poster wrote, say that Joy replied to that post,(IGNORED that he did NOT reply to ALL of it and ONLY agreed with PART of it) and then accuse him of a racist remark that he NEVER made OR agreed with.

In short you made a mistake and should apologize for it.

[GlennR]

If we're trying to make friends here then why I’m I such a bad person for caring about others?:confused:

Hows Martyr suit then?

[GlennR]

That's my point dude, the WC community is full of guys "pushing their agenda".

Look, everyone has their own agenda, fair enough

But i cant help thinking that most guys here like to win a verbal/internet battle because they'll never have a real fight (using their WC) in their wildest dreams

This cyber-sparring is their outlet.

Make you a bet, just posted the Joe Louis thread.... its actually about applied fighting and its comparison to WC.

It will hardly get a look or a comment

[Ali. R]

Hows Martyr suit then?

You’re right, why should I care when no one else will?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Look, everyone has their own agenda, fair enough

But i cant help thinking that most guys here like to win a verbal/internet battle because they'll never have a real fight (using their WC) in their wildest dreams

This cyber-sparring is their outlet.

Make you a bet, just posted the Joe Louis thread.... its actually about applied fighting and its comparison to WC.

It will hardly get a look or a comment

I accept that bet :p

[GlennR]

I accept that bet :p

Ok, $1 bet theres less than 10 comments (excluding you and i) in the next 24 hours

[Ali. R]

I don’t think most of the people are like that here on this forum and only look for drama, I couldn’t play them that cheap. But, it’s a good thread and I have no problem with it but I wouldn’t touch it, epically while under those circumstances. :confused:

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ok, $1 bet theres less than 10 comments (excluding you and i) in the next 24 hours

Conditions AFTER I accepted?
You sir, are a YALE man !!
:mad:

[Vajramusti]

Look, everyone has their own agenda, fair enough

But i cant help thinking that most guys here like to win a verbal/internet battle because they'll never have a real fight (using their WC) in their wildest dreams

This cyber-sparring is their outlet.

Make you a bet, just posted the Joe Louis thread.... its actually about applied fighting and its comparison to WC.

It will hardly get a look or a comment
-------------------------------------
Hey-I plan to look at it and comment.

A problem with net chat is many folks type before they think.. and un-reflective egos and search for power seeps in.
Face to face-many will sip a drink and chat.

[Ali. R]

I will have/keep the biggest ego if it entails respecting all humanity, genders and cultures, because I have no dislike of anyone’s culture or way or life.

[LoneTiger108]

You’re right, why should I care when no one else will?

Well I can only apologise for sending this whole thread into some sort of justification for an off-the-cuff post I aimed at Joy.

Never intended it to cause such a fuss but I am thankful that you at least cared about how I read or misread Joys intentions.

[Ali. R]

You could have very well miss read them (very sensitive subject), but the fact is there was no attempt to unravel the confusion but only to suppress it, which can make most see what you felted.

Believe me, I’ve seen it all when it comes to crap like this and it should be corrected and not played down, this way things like this wouldn’t escalade.

I believe when one touches on someone’s culture or way of life it should come with an explanation to that person in private and that’s just out of respect alone.

This is something that my generation and generations before me has fought for within a life time and with their lives (respect to/for others).

I thank you also dear brother,

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well I can only apologise for sending this whole thread into some sort of justification for an off-the-cuff post I aimed at Joy.

Never intended it to cause such a fuss but I am thankful that you at least cared about how I read or misread Joys intentions.

Actually, it wouldn't hurt you to apologize to joy, since obviously Ali isn't going to do it.

[Ali. R]

Why would anyone want to apologies to someone who half quotes a racist remark, this is not Fox News? :confused:

That should be the other way around.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Why would anyone want to apologies to someone who half quotes a racist remark, this is not Fox News? :confused:

Because you were WRONG to accuse Joy of something he did NOT say, that's why you apologize.
You need me to explain that to you?
You accused him of a racist remark he did not make, accused him of agreeing with a racist remark he did NOT agree with.
So you apologize for making a mistake.
Simple.

[Ali. R]

But he connected himself to it; that’s a very dumb a$$ act for an educated person.

[sanjuro_ronin]

But he connected himself to it; that’s a very dumb a$$ act for an educated person.

So is not admitting you are wrong when you are wrong and not apologizing when you should.

[Ali. R]

I don’t hear ‘Joy’ crying about anything; frankly he’s very proud of himself. Oh wait a second, maybe you should give him a sponge bath to calm things down.

[EternalSpring]

I don’t hear ‘Joy’ crying about anything; frankly he’s very proud of himself. Oh wait a second, maybe you should give him a sponge bath to calm things down.

I dont know about that. He seems more quiet on the matter because there's absolutely nothing he can do or say when you're judging him based on your opinion while disregarding any sort of evidence.

What you're doing is similar to a scenario where I find out that Hitler loves chicken, and then I say I love chicken, and then you call me a Jew hater because I agreed with Hitler's quote on chicken and thus must agree with everything he's ever said.

I think it's cool that you want to promote peace, but being oversensitive wont promote peace because anyone can be offended by anything. I can simply say that I find your conclusion on Joy to be offensive and thus you're no less offensive to me than his post was to you. But I'm sure we can all see how thinking like that makes life more complicated than it should be imo.

disclaimer: hitler may not like chicken, i made that up.

[Ali. R]

If it makes me look bad, then I’ll look bad.

I’d said it to help cool things down by making fun of it, but if you want to flip the table over while mentioning Hitler’s name to me three times as if I want some kind of power, you’re far of the truth.

I’m nothing like Hitler. I’m flattered, which means my convections do ring true in heart to have something in common with Hitler.

Man, I don’t know where you’re going with this and I just don’t understand where you’re coming from, but this is how I feel and certain people should be angry because I feel this way.

We’re all here together and people do need people; I’m convinced on what combined us together, has always proven stronger then what rips us apart, we are one people and we need one another.

[Jeff_H]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dlq2j1ER1DHs&v=lq2j1ER1DHs&gl=US

For the record one of my parents is black and the other is "not black", and our families come right out the movie Romeo must Die. ;) yes, I know the clip link is from rUsh Hour

[EternalSpring]

If it makes me look bad, then I’ll look bad.

I’d said it to help cool things down by making fun of it, but if you want to flip the table over while mentioning Hitler’s name to me three times as if I want some kind of power, you’re far of the truth.

I’m nothing like Hitler. I’m flattered, which means my convections do ring true in heart to have something in common with Hitler.

Man, I don’t know where you’re going with this and I just don’t understand where you’re coming from, but this is how I feel and certain people should be angry because I feel this way.

We’re all here together and people do need people; I’m convinced on what combined us together, has always proven stronger then what rips us apart, we are one people and we need one another.

waitwut. I wasn't saying anything about you being bad or anything like hitler. I was trying to portray that just because a person agrees with one part of what someone says, it doesn't mean they agree with everything that person said.

as for unity and people needing each other. I'd agree. But I'd feel that true unity is the result of discussing things fairly with an open mind, not branding other people as racists based on opinions with no evidence couples w/ selective logic/reading.

Also, I'm beginning to think that perhaps you may have just read what he wrote wrong because here you are thinking I compared you to Hitler when I think it was painstakingly clear that I used myself as the one who was compared to hitler (simply because i didn't want to offend anyone) in my post, not you. So reading comprehension issues may be the source of the problem here (not saying that as an insult, not all people are the same when it comes to reading and not all people have english as their first language) because you seem to be reading almost the opposite of what is written. Unless perhaps I wrote my post in a strange fashion, which i dont think i did, but i could be wrong.

[Ali. R]

Again, no one called anyone a racist you’re the 4th person that went there.

If I have to look bad, then I’ll look bad, but my trust is in people having common sense and enough sense of heart and responsibility to know the difference between wrong and right.

And I’ll place my guilt in the hands of responsible adults, because common sense tells me that they have plenty of sense. And as long as ‘Spencer’ feels good about the whole thing, then I feel great. And nothing will ever change that.

Take care,

[Wayfaring]

Thanks for all the input on this thread guys. What I can put together from everyone's responses is understanding a few things about the WCK community.

1) Within a lineage exists the strongest sense of community in WCK.
2) Outside of your lineage, it seems that face to face exchanges are the most productive
3) Forums like this offer the "loosest" sense of community. We can talk and exchange ideas but it's more difficult.
4) We have to be clear on explaining terms because everyone means something different when they say something like "chi sau".
5) Videos - everyone seems to hate 1-step self defense type response videos. Everyone is pretty critical of most videos, so if you want to get your point across using them, develop a thicker skin.

So I guess yes there is a community in WCK. I'm not ready to label it completely dysfunctional yet, but there are dysfunctional elements and arguments that commonly occur.

[GlennR]

Conditions AFTER I accepted?
You sir, are a YALE man !!
:mad:

Yale man?
Im an Australian... give me a clue here?? ;)

[WC1277]

Again, no one called anyone a racist you’re the 4th person that went there.

And yet you did infer that someone was a racist!


Why would anyone want to apologies to someone who half quotes a racist remark, this is not Fox News? :confused:

That should be the other way around.

No tell me how someone can be said to have made a racist remark yet not "feel" as though you're calling them a racist, which in essence is a hypocritical remark on your part...

[Happy Tiger]

I dont know about that. He seems more quiet on the matter because there's absolutely nothing he can do or say when you're judging him based on your opinion while disregarding any sort of evidence.

What you're doing is similar to a scenario where I find out that Hitler loves chicken, and then I say I love chicken, and then you call me a Jew hater because I agreed with Hitler's quote on chicken and thus must agree with everything he's ever said.

I think it's cool that you want to promote peace, but being oversensitive wont promote peace because anyone can be offended by anything. I can simply say that I find your conclusion on Joy to be offensive and thus you're no less offensive to me than his post was to you. But I'm sure we can all see how thinking like that makes life more complicated than it should be imo.

disclaimer: hitler may not like chicken, i made that up.
Hitler was a vegetarian :)

[EternalSpring]

Hitler was a vegetarian :)

well, there goes my analogy!

[k gledhill]

Interval....I need to make some more popcorn :D

[Phil Redmond]

Interval....I need to make some more popcorn :D
Me too now....:D

[anerlich]

I'm not incredibly proficient on my MMA knowledge but haven't some of the most successful fighters been rather qualified within their own MA of choice before deciding to even get into MMA??

That's true in some cases, but OTOH Frank Shamrock became a world champ in about 18 months.

I've trained with people who have become very proficient in MMA (national championship level, finalist for Ultimate Fighter, etc.) who have not trained in any other arts (other than the boxing MT, wrestling and BJJ that make up MMA training at many gyms).


If that's true,

It isn't really,


I think it speaks volumes about not only MMA but this supposed WC community as well. Just my opinion....

The volumes must be very short, as I don't think it says anything of note.

This forum != the "Wing Chun community".

Unlike many, I've actually met up with others from this forum in person for friendly exchanges. Try it if you want to seriously find a Wing Chun community or at least discuss the subject with some authority.

[anerlich]

I have read enough stuff from you over the years about us Brits to have already left an impression and this hasn't helped.


Oh yeah, the poor poms, they never wash, talk like d0rks, don't play real football and drink horrible beer.

The average Australian would have insulted you overly sensitive Brits 100 times worse than Joy might have done (which IMO he didn't).

I actually like and get on well with most Brits who make the journey here, but you sound like you'd definitely be an exception to that rule.

[anerlich]

And this thread has just demonstrated why the WC community has issues, LOL !

Truer words were never spoken.

I'm still tossing up whether to take the $5000.

[GlennR]

I accept that bet :p

You owe me a dollar ;)

[LoneTiger108]

Oh yeah, the poor poms, they never wash, talk like d0rks, don't play real football and drink horrible beer.

The average Australian would have insulted you overly sensitive Brits 100 times worse than Joy might have done (which IMO he didn't).

You see... here's someone who doesn't even want a Wing Chun community telling me what I have 'supposedly' done here :confused:

1. I aint accused Joy of anything but responding to a post that I found a little harsh, even if it was supposed to be funny. It wasn't imho.

2. 'Pom' is a racist term too dude. But you wouldn't know that because you don't bellieve you are racist because you 'know some pommy Brits, aint that right?

This thread had showed some truth at least.

The Wing Chun community I am looking for is definitely not on this forum, but I knew that anyway. :(

[sanjuro_ronin]

You owe me a dollar ;)

Indeed my friend, sad eh?

[Jeff_H]

Indeed my friend, sad eh?the dollar is sad. Like many things its losing value too.

[rogerlee36]

Some people need to watch more of this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unkIVvjZc9Y

and less Oprah Winfrey.

[GlennR]

the dollar is sad. Like many things its losing value too.

Not the Australian one! ;)

[GlennR]

Indeed my friend, sad eh?

Yep, it is

The Louis thread got 319 looks with 11 replies

This one, 2237 looks with 102 replies.

It just confirms what i believe WC is to the majority, a social club where proving your point, pushing your agenda and theorising self defense to death is the norm.

Keep the buck and put it to a MT magazine, youll get more value from that than here

[guy b.]

Yep, it is

The Louis thread got 319 looks with 11 replies

This one, 2237 looks with 102 replies.

It just confirms what i believe WC is to the majority, a social club where proving your point, pushing your agenda and theorising self defense to death is the norm.

Keep the buck and put it to a MT magazine, youll get more value from that than here

Absolutely correct.

I thought your boxing thread was great by the way, sorry for lack of comment. Top articles and thanks for links.

[Vajramusti]

Yep, it is

The Louis thread got 319 looks with 11 replies

This one, 2237 looks with 102 replies.

It just confirms what i believe WC is to the majority, a social club where proving your point, pushing your agenda and theorising self defense to death is the norm.

Keep the buck and put it to a MT magazine, youll get more value from that than here
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Glenn- I replied. Further- watching Louis in his youth is instructive- and parallels some wing chun principles on balance, measured steps etc.
On the net in a list of 20 best fighters of all time Louis was listed as #2 with Ali as #1.
There was one fun verbal exchange between Ali and Louis. Ali as usual was saying he was the greatest.Louis replied something like- you know I once had a bum of the month tour. You would have been on the tour.
By the the time Louis faced Rocky he was over the hill and didn't have much defense. Some Marciano right that sent Louis sagging into the ropes.
Head blows left both Louis and Ali damaged at the end.

joy

[GlennR]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Glenn- I replied. Further- watching Louis in his youth is instructive- and parallels some wing chun principles on balance, measured steps etc.
On the net in a list of 20 best fighters of all time Louis was listed as #2 with Ali as #1.
There was one fun verbal exchange between Ali and Louis. Ali as usual was saying he was the greatest.Louis replied something like- you know I once had a bum of the month tour. You would have been on the tour.
By the the time Louis faced Rocky he was over the hill and didn't have much defense. Some Marciano right that sent Louis sagging into the ropes.
Head blows left both Louis and Ali damaged at the end.

joy

Noticed your reply Joy, i think you are as big a fan of boxing (almost) as me ;)