Tibetan White Crane

[jdhowland]

As per a suggestion by TenTigers let's talk about the other White Crane: the "lama fist" style of Ng Siu Jung (and his brother, Siu Chan) in all its various permutations. There have been some experienced and knowledgable posters here in recent years. Let's hope we can draw them in.

[Minghequan]

Okay, perhaps you could get the ball rolling by telling us about the beginnings of Tibetan White Crane!

Does it owe any of it's beginnings to the Fuzhou variety?

Was it's origins strictly in the realm of Fighting Arts?

[TenTigers]

I noticed that from the small exposure I had in TWC, there were some short hand techniques similar to Fukien/Hakka/Siu-Lum crane. Bong-sao, gaun-sau, and also the hooking and crane's beak strike-nearly identical to Siu Lum Hung Kuen.
I understand that there was some trading in the system, and some TWC systems have a variation of the five animal fist from Siu-Lum Hung Kuen. (Deng family Hop-Ga also uses the Kiu-sao single finger hand)
What can you add to this?

[sanjuro_ronin]

How many types of TWC is there and how does Lama Pai / LionsRoar fit into it?

[TenTigers]

Si Ji Hao branched into three-Lama P'ai, Hop-Ga, and Bak Hok P'ai. Variations exist within the styles,and many share the same sets.
It would be very cool to see a side by side comparison. There is a youtube vid floating about with Lama P'ai Sifu Michael Parella exchanging information with Hop-Ga Sifu David Rogers.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I've seen some TWC that is "tyical" long range stuff ( kicks with both arms out for balance, lots of "CLF" type long looping strikes, etc) BUT have also seen LR/LP stuff that was as inclose as SPM.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Si Ji Hao branched into three-Lama P'ai, Hop-Ga, and Bak Hok P'ai. Variations exist within the styles,and many share the same sets.
It would be very cool to see a side by side comparison. There is a youtube vid floating about with Lama P'ai Sifu Michael Parella exchanging information with Hop-Ga Sifu David Rogers.

Mike's stuff on youtube is great.
Big loss when he stopped posting here...

[TenTigers]

I've seen some TWC that is "tyical" long range stuff ( kicks with both arms out for balance, lots of "CLF" type long looping strikes, etc) BUT have also seen LR/LP stuff that was as inclose as SPM.
People from Mark Foon's school learned a TWC form prior to learning SPM. My SPM teacher showed me bits n bobs from it, and from what I can see, it is using many of the same body angles when striking, although much larger. Mark Foon was a Master in TWC and I believe Hung Kuen as well prior to studying with Lam Sang. The foundation in a larger frame boxing style develops the "engines" for a more compact system.

[sanjuro_ronin]

People from Mark Foon's school learned a TWC form prior to learning SPM. My SPM teacher showed me bits n bobs from it, and from what I can see, it is using many of the same body angles when striking, although much larger. Mark Foon was a Master in TWC and I believe Hung Kuen as well prior to studying with Lam Sang. The foundation in a larger frame boxing style develops the "engines" for a more compact system.

Very much so, going from "big to small" really develops the engine much better than diving it at "small".
I am sure some can make it work from the start of course.
The commonality of many southern systems is that, start big and end small.
I recall one person mentioning that he believed that the southern short hand systems are all just "expressions" of an original long hand one.

[Gru Bianca]

I noticed that from the small exposure I had in TWC, there were some short hand techniques similar to Fukien/Hakka/Siu-Lum crane. Bong-sao, gaun-sau, and also the hooking and crane's beak strike-nearly identical to Siu Lum Hung Kuen.
I understand that there was some trading in the system, and some TWC systems have a variation of the five animal fist from Siu-Lum Hung Kuen. (Deng family Hop-Ga also uses the Kiu-sao single finger hand)
What can you add to this?

Perhaps you are referring to the Siu Ng Yim kune part of it? Never seen performed the Da Ng Yim Kune but I've heard they are two different beasts altogether.

[taichi4eva]

I have only started training in Tibetan White Crane. Due to my prior experience with other kung fu styles, my teacher allowed me to follow along while he performed his version of Siu Ng Ying. From the versions I have seen on Youtube (there is a version done in Singapore that is floating around), my teacher's version is much longer and consists of long range arm movements, kiu sau, as well as animal movements.

[3v1lj03]

I study TWC my sifu is from the Nig-Siu-Chung - Ngai-Yah-Tong linage. in fact I have never seen any forms posted on youtube or elsewhere that are the same as ours. I have seen techniques that are similar to ours and all our history and philosophy are consistent with the vast majority or Pok Hok Pai /Lama Pi/ Hap Ga. While there are some similar movements in TWC to the Fujian type there is no common history or linage. Sometimes what works works for all humans and those who seek find similar answers to common questions. I will be happy to attempt to answer questions concerning TWC to the best of my ability.

[TenTigers]

Perhaps the short-hand techniques were a result of Wong Yun-Lum exchanging knowledge with other Southern stylists, such as Wong Kei-Ying? I had heard this is also where the Siu Ng Ying Kuen originated as well.

[illusionfist]

(Deng family Hop-Ga also uses the Kiu-sao single finger hand)
What can you add to this?

There are some who think that the single finger bridge hand originated from Lama/Haap Ga, at least as far as Hung Kyun is concerned.

[TenTigers]

There are some who think that the single finger bridge hand originated from Lama/Haap Ga, at least as far as Hung Kyun is concerned.

yes, I've heard this as well.
Here's the mystery; Some say that the Lamists were not involved in Fan Ching Fuk Ming, but obviously Wong Yun-Lum was. Perhaps the info to the contrary came more from bad Kung-Fu movies...

[sanjuro_ronin]

yes, I've heard this as well.
Here's the mystery; Some say that the Lamists were not involved in Fan Ching Fuk Ming, but obviously Wong Yun-Lum was. Perhaps the info to the contrary came more from bad Kung-Fu movies...

I once read a website that stated the official history of Bak Mei.
It was the story from "Executioners from Shaolin".
So, you may be more right than you know.

[Gru Bianca]

Can't speak for the other two traditions (Lama and Hop Gar) but in the Pak Hok that I know or seen so far the Kiu Sao is present only in Siu Ng Yin Kune and for few movements really.
Some one in Hong Kong told me that in the 80's or 90's came out an article on a local magazine saying that the Lama tradition was a "new" invention made out to stand out of the "crowed"
Regardless of the historical issue it's truly a wonderful system

[once ronin]

records from the Deng family in guangzhou show Wong Yan lam was a rebel fighting the ching.

In Hong Kong Choy Yee Kung walked with a limp because he was trying to escape with Wong Yan Lam from Ching Govt soliders and got stabbed in the leg.

The poems for Cotton in the needle from white crane and Noi Baht Moon hop ga form has hung moon theories in it.

[madhusudan]

I've seen articles on the web mentioning the 'long range techniques' of Lama. From my own evaluation of what would make sense, it has always seemed that the waist twisting in lau sing kyuhn and other basic techniques are meant to be delivered from close in. Stance breaking, disrupting space, shoulder bashing, destroying bridges, then either delivering a knockout blow unseen from an angle or taking balance and throwing.

I just really couldn't imagine throwing a bin cup, pau choi or chyuhn choi from jabbing range or from a range where the opponent would have a chance to see it and react. I see all these techniques, and most of the others I know, being used close in, almost from standing clinch range or a little further apart. I do understand this is the 'lowest' level of Lama and that there are more advanced short hand techiniques I am unaware of.

I'd be interested to hear comments on this from people who have access to a sifu, as I'm practicing on my own with what I remember.

[jdhowland]

Okay, perhaps you could get the ball rolling by telling us about the beginnings of Tibetan White Crane!

Does it owe any of it's beginnings to the Fuzhou variety?

Was it's origins strictly in the realm of Fighting Arts?

No origin story can be verified. The official story is that it began in the fifteenth century during the reign of the third Ming emperor. This tale might be designed to identify some parts of its history with a Han Chinese culture--or it might be simple truth. The "lama" styles were mostly passed down through Hung societies and share a lot of symbolism.

As far as I know, no Chinese system is strictly about fighting. The fighting schools were also political and commercial organizations that supported special groups. Add the religious and cultural trappings and you get a unique group identity.

All of the first three or four generations of teachers in Southern China were known fighters, though. Had to be. Ng Siu Jung no less than the others.

[Gru Bianca]

records from the Deng family in guangzhou show Wong Yan lam was a rebel fighting the ching.

In Hong Kong Choy Yee Kung walked with a limp because he was trying to escape with Wong Yan Lam from Ching Govt soliders and got stabbed in the leg.

The poems for Cotton in the needle from white crane and Noi Baht Moon hop ga form has hung moon theories in it.
That's really interesting, if that is the case, who is to be assumed to be the creator of the Min Loy Cham poem?

[jdhowland]

I noticed that from the small exposure I had in TWC, there were some short hand techniques similar to Fukien/Hakka/Siu-Lum crane. Bong-sao, gaun-sau, and also the hooking and crane's beak strike-nearly identical to Siu Lum Hung Kuen.
I understand that there was some trading in the system, and some TWC systems have a variation of the five animal fist from Siu-Lum Hung Kuen. (Deng family Hop-Ga also uses the Kiu-sao single finger hand)
What can you add to this?

Quentin Fong's TWC comes largely from Deng Jak Ming, although he initially learned from Lok Chee Fu. It includes the Ng Ying Kyihn. So did Ng Yim Ming's Hap Ga, although they were somewhat different. Fong emphasized that any long hand technique has a short version, (e.g.: chyun cheui becomes "jin cheui" or arrow punch, fired from in front of the chest or face rather than from the sides). Some "lama" groups call the short punch jihk cheui, the same term as in some SPM systems.

I know the kiu-sao as "gam gong jih" or adamantine/diamond finger. It is prevalent in both the White Crane and Hop Ga that I learned. It occurs at the end of our Iron Chain set as a hand signal--not a fighting technique and in our first Hap Ga form as both fighting technique and as a part of an opening tension exercise.

[jdhowland]

How many types of TWC is there and how does Lama Pai / LionsRoar fit into it?

One way to look at it is that there are versions that were taught to practitioners of other systems, and versions that used only lama style methods. This gives us at least a few major branches and lots of smaller offshoots.

Hong Kong Pak Hok Athletic Association style. These folks had the impossible task of trying to standardize and regulate the style while also trying to preserve it by modifying it.

Chan Hak Fu style. Reportedly different--his own style with a pared down syllabus.

Luk Chee Fu branch. His son, Luk Chung Mau (Michael Lok) continues to teach. I think there were schools influenced by them in Malaysia, Britain and the Philippines. Should be very close to Ngai Yoh Tong and the P.H.A.A. style.

Kwong Bun Fu style. He was one of the senior representatives of Pak Hok when he died a few years back. Left students in Asia and Canada. Some of them claim he should have been the gate keeper of the style but many in Hong Kong disagreed.

Au Wing Nin style. Learned lama style from at least four different teachers. Apparently became the senior disciple of Ng Siu Jung. Au went along with the name change to White Crane but seems to have taught the Lama system more or less as he learned it, without the tendency for expansion that happened in later decades.

Please add others to this list as you think of them.

In regards to the second part of sanjuro_ronin's question: In the past, some have suggested that White Crane resulted from a specialization in one aspect of the Lion Roar curriculum and that systems using the names Lion's Roar or Lama Paai must reflect older versions of the tradition. I don't see it this way at all.

If you look at the origins of systems now calling themselves Lion's Roar or Lama Pai you find that they stem from blends of White Crane and Hap Ga as much as anything else. White Crane and Hop Ga were established before most Lama Pai schools. This reflects political changes in China that allowed the older names to be used again. They were no longer so politically incorrect, and, as Gru Bianca mentioned in a previous post, allowed for a name brand recognition that set them apart from other Chinese arts.

[taichi4eva]

I have seen videos from the Hong Kong Pak Hok Association, and in my opinion, there is really not much difference between forms. The techniques are just strewn in a different order.

Which makes me believe that sets in Pak Hok or Lama is a very recent invention...

[Gru Bianca]

One way to look at it is that there are versions that were taught to practitioners of other systems, and versions that used only lama style methods. This gives us at least a few major branches and lots of smaller offshoots.

Hong Kong Pak Hok Athletic Association style. These folks had the impossible task of trying to standardize and regulate the style while also trying to preserve it by modifying it.

Chan Hak Fu style. Reportedly different--his own style with a pared down syllabus.

Luk Chee Fu branch. His son, Luk Chung Mau (Michael Lok) continues to teach. I think there were schools influenced by them in Malaysia, Britain and the Philippines. Should be very close to Ngai Yoh Tong and the P.H.A.A. style.

Kwong Bun Fu style. He was one of the senior representatives of Pak Hok when he died a few years back. Left students in Asia and Canada. Some of them claim he should have been the gate keeper of the style but many in Hong Kong disagreed.

Au Wing Nin style. Learned lama style from at least four different teachers. Apparently became the senior disciple of Ng Siu Jung. Au went along with the name change to White Crane but seems to have taught the Lama system more or less as he learned it, without the tendency for expansion that happened in later decades.

Please add others to this list as you think of them.

In regards to the second part of sanuro_ronin's question: In the past, some have suggested that White Crane resulted from a specialization in one aspect of the Lion Roar curriculum and that systems using the names Lion's Roar or Lama Paai must reflect older versions of the tradition. I don't see it this way at all.

If you look at the origins of systems now calling themselves Lion's Roar or Lama Pai you find that they stem from blends of White Crane and Hap Ga as much as anything else. White Crane and Hop Ga were established before most Lama Pai schools. This reflects political changes in China that allowed the older names to be used again. They were no longer so politically incorrect, and, as Gru Bianca mentioned in a previous post, allowed for a name brand recognition that set them apart from other Chinese arts.

John,

You summed it up pretty well I would say; only an addition in regard to Au Wing Nam, you are right in what you say (or at least so I have heard too) but he actually did not only study Lama prior to Pak Hok he actually studied Pak Hok with Ng Siu Chang more than he studied with Ng Siu Chun. But he showed great respect non the less to Ng Siu Chun

[Gru Bianca]

I have seen videos from the Hong Kong Pak Hok Association, and in my opinion, there is really not much difference between forms. The techniques are just strewn in a different order.

Which makes me believe that sets in Pak Hok or Lama is a very recent invention...

I'll have to desagree with you on this; surely the techniques are the same (to be politically correct) or else it wouldn't be the "same" style, but their execution and how the forms have been reconstructed after being forgotten really underline differences between different lines of origine.
Just my opinion of course

[jdhowland]

Ten_Tigers:
The foundation in a larger frame boxing style develops the "engines" for a more compact system.


Very much so, going from "big to small" really develops the engine much better than diving it at "small".
I am sure some can make it work from the start of course.
The commonality of many southern systems is that, start big and end small.


Good observations. I've often wondered whether the descriptions of TWC in popular media as a truly long range style were fostered by the featured instructors who didn't want to give too much away. Many of our techniques are designed for body-to-body contact, even those performed at full extension.

I've had some training in Chu Ga and SPM and find great similarities. Even the fung ngan cheui/phoenix eye strikes are common in TWC and Hop Ga.

Long range TWC methods "open the chest" to allow waist rotation and side power for full momentum. The short hand techniques are done differently, with a "closed chest, open back" and the common flurries of three to five short hand techniques are done with power from trunk muscles, but with little waist rotation. My teacher even described a waist folding and extending technique in our Kau Da Kyun as "eating and spitting."

[jdhowland]

John,
... in regard to Au Wing Nam, you are right in what you say (or at least so I have heard too) but he actually did not only study Lama prior to Pak Hok he actually studied Pak Hok with Ng Siu Chang more than he studied with Ng Siu Chun. But he showed great respect non the less to Ng Siu Chun

Agreed. I was taught that he learned from both brothers but bowed to Ng Siu Chan as the senior.

[jdhowland]

Thought this might be interesting to some. It's the list of fourteen basic training methods called the Foundation Course (approximately the first year of training) as posted in Quentin Fong's Mason Street school in San Francisco, circa 1973.

Foundation Course



1. waist loosening exercise
2. pushing palm
3. arrow punch
4. ascending punch
5. descending punch
6. fist and finger push ups
7. chop stick twisting
8. leg stretching exercises
9. front stiff leg kick
10. front snap kick
11. front push kick
12. roundhouse kick
13. sand bag practice
14. six strength fist set

[Gru Bianca]

I think the "label" of the Tibetan systems as being long range mainly derives from the theory of not engaging in bridges and in avoiding contact till the right moment, i.e. the finishing one.
It was discussed in a thread opened by Ross the principle of 手去身离 whereby basically is stated to move out as soon as you launch a technique hence hinting to certain "disdain" for extended contact.
But then again, if we look at Siu Ng Yim, Min Loy Cham, Siu/Da KamNa etc...it's full of short range techniques, shuaijiao and so on so forth.
From my very limited and inexperienced perspective I'd argue that by virtue "the style" preaches unprolonged contacts with the opponent hence "long distance" but at the end of the day I believe it to be highly dependent on the skills of the pratictioner and his mastering of Sim (a quality I was told Wang Lam Hoi had very well developed)

[jdhowland]

Very much so, going from "big to small" really develops the engine much better than diving it at "small".
I am sure some can make it work from the start of course.
The commonality of many southern systems is that, start big and end small.QUOTE]

I agree. It's hard to imagine doing it the other way. Imagine the difficulties spending years on, say, a short Hakka system and then trying to loosen up for longfist. TWC is well organized as a teaching method and first develops gross motor skills which can be used under pressure.

[QUOTE]I recall one person mentioning that he believed that the southern short hand systems are all just "expressions" of an original long hand one.

Interesting. Wondered about that myself. It would explain why systems of supposedly northern origin do not resemble what remains in the homeland.

[htowndragon]

90% of the people who can hit for sh1t in a short ranged system trained a power base in a long range system.

[jdhowland]

I've seen some TWC that is "tyical" long range stuff ( kicks with both arms out for balance, lots of "CLF" type long looping strikes, etc) BUT have also seen LR/LP stuff that was as inclose as SPM.

(Bold type added by me)

Thought this might be worth a comment.

The oft-noted arms out while kicking seen in TWC is a training method and does not reflect the fighting technique. I would say that it's not even for balance (although one of my teachers said exactly that). Our kicking drills are often done with the arms outstretched to the sides for the duration of the drills and often with weights, though Master Fong preferred using grip exercisers to train a tight fist. Shoulder strength is important in this system due to the emphasis on keeping the hands up and away from the body during a fight.

Along with endurance training the method also adds inertia to the upper body so it doesn't move at the same time as the waist and legs. It becomes an isolation exercise that creates awareness of the lower trunk--the "golden girdle" or central power source.

[bawang]

i respect hap kuen, but its rediculous to call it a tibetan martial art. also, please cut it with the stereotypical "rebel hero" bs.

[Gru Bianca]

i respect hap kuen, but its rediculous to call it a tibetan martial art. also, please cut it with the stereotypical "rebel hero" bs.

Ridiculous why? Mind to elaborate in more details?

[bawang]

because it is not a tibetan martial art.

[taai gihk yahn]

i respect hap kuen, but its rediculous to call it a tibetan martial art. also, please cut it with the stereotypical "rebel hero" bs.

what's wrong with rebel heroes?

http://www.teamteabag.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/billy_idol.jpg

[Gru Bianca]

because it is not a tibetan martial art.

yeah, thanks a lot I got it already you were of that opinion, I would be interested though to know if you have a specific reason to say so (.i.e. you have some sort of proof or you have seen some document or what?)

[bawang]

the traditional tibetan martial arts of archery and wrestling are alive and well in tibet, and traditional culture in tibet is also continous and well preserved, with no "lost history".

more importantly, chinese martial arts with legitimate ties to lamas all practice spirit possession, called the great spirit jump.

[Lee Chiang Po]

yeah, thanks a lot I got it already you were of that opinion, I would be interested though to know if you have a specific reason to say so (.i.e. you have some sort of proof or you have seen some document or what?)

It would be like Brazilian jiujitsu, or Russian kung fu, or Haitian karate.

[LaterthanNever]

If I am not mistaken..Lama Pai is related to the "Hop Ga" system..

[madhusudan]

In the only fighting competition I've been in, a Kyokushin Karate tournament, I was knocked out (unable to continue) from a good hard body shot. I also love body shot knockouts in boxing. I think there is a compilation on a tube website.

Anyone care to comment on developing chyuhn / penetration?

[Gru Bianca]

the traditional tibetan martial arts of archery and wrestling are alive and well in tibet, and traditional culture in tibet is also continous and well preserved, with no "lost history".

more importantly, chinese martial arts with legitimate ties to lamas all practice spirit possession, called the great spirit jump.

Thanks for your feedback, still you have not fully replied my question; what are your sources?

Thanks

[Gru Bianca]

I have sworn brothers in Tibet. Never heard of Lama Pai.

They can do cowboy horse tricks because until not very long ago Tibetans were still raiding in Sichuan.

People still carry swords in remote areas. The only martial art you can see is military san da.

Nothing definitive, just another perspective.

I am not surprised they have never heard of Lama Pai, Lama Pai is not the original name of the system

[bawang]

Thanks for your feedback, still you have not fully replied my question; what are your sources?

Thanks

it comes from oral history of martial arts in jiangsu province my hometown. during the boxing rebellion lamas introduced spirit possession to produce quick results.
chinese use qigong and taoist magic, tibetans, mongols and manchu use spirit possession.

other than archery and wrestling, some tibetans practiced chinese martial arts. their form and concepts dont differ, we have very close cultural ties. its the teaching of spirit possession that is a giveaway of tibetan and mongol influence. mongols invite animal spirits, tibetans invite buddhist demon princes.

for written documents, one of the republican era shaolin monks wrote about the prevalence of tibetan monks in the boxer rebellion


secondary reasons include:

chinese wrestling with manchu influence use mongol and manchu terms. if you had tibetan influence you would at least have some basic words, like punch or kick.

hap kuen looks exactly like northern martial arts.

hap kuen looks nothing like sichuan and qinghai martial arts.

hap kuen is gangster kung fu. gangsters make a lot of things up.

[jdhowland]

Might be worth noting that the system is officially titled Bak Hok Pai. "Tibetan" is not really part of the name but is often added to distinguish it from southern white crane arts.

[jdhowland]

...tibetans invite buddhist demon princes.

We have Vajrapani in common with Shaolin.



hap kuen is gangster kung fu. gangsters make a lot of things up.

Hah!


Agreed

[jdhowland]

The "Lion's Roar" tradition has an origin myth that is strikingly similar to Hung Mun/Triad myths. Other elements are common to many Chinese systems.

1. A sage/martial genius has a revelatory experience in which he is inspired by a totemic animal to create a fighting system. This happens during a Han golden age (middle of the Ming Dynasty).

2. His system becomes cloistered within a monastery and is developed by monks for several generations.

3. The system leaves its monastic home and becomes associated with a royal family (Qing).

4. A master of the system chooses four disciples to travel with him. Stories link him with great events in local history and folklore. The four disciples are dispersed to wander and teach, never to be heard from again.

5. The master (Sage Dragon--perhaps a Dragon Head?) finds a new home and chooses his last group of disciples to learn all of his fighting skills and advanced medical techniques.

6. The master dies and the five door-closing disciples become the gentlemen warriors, associated with the knights errant of old and form patriotic societies. They inspire youths to become strong and serve the public with their medical clinics. Other business need not be brought up here.

[TenTigers]

Hakk Kuen also uses spirit possession, or sun-dar.
So does that funky Vietnamese school I see at tournaments sometimes....

I channel in my Uncle Moe sometimes when grappling. He had a great bearhug in his day.
Problem is, when he got older, he needed adult diapers...you don't want to channel in the old Uncle Moe....

[jdhowland]

Hakk Kuen also uses spirit possession, or sun-dar.
So does that funky Vietnamese school I see at tournaments sometimes....

I channel in my Uncle Moe sometimes when grappling. He had a great bearhug in his day.
Problem is, when he got older, he needed adult diapers...you don't want to channel in the old Uncle Moe....

Depends on whether he had a violent streak. If he was a gentle soul, leave him at rest. If he got grumpy...well, a big, grumpy, smelly old man is a perfect choice. No one wants to touch him.

Spirit/demon channeling is still pretty common in the south. White Crane uses buddhist symbolism but the problem with a supposedly monastic origin is that Vajrayana schools all begin with practicing compassion. Demonic identification is used as a vehicle for tantric practices only after acknowledging that all tantric work must depend on the ideal of compassion and it requires years of practice. Outside the monastic communities its a different story. Any independent yogi may invite possession by whatever being he chooses.

btw: Vajrapani is an emmanation of Indra. The Indo-European source that gives us Indra and Ching Kang also became the thunder god in the west. Hence, Vajrapani = Thor/Thunaer/Donner. Imagine an angry Thor weilding thunderbolt/hammer with bristling beard and blazing red eyes and you have a pretty image to use for inspiration. The Thais have this guy too; I forget what they call him.

Another demon god used in Tibetan tantric ritual is Heruka=Rig=Heimdal. Hard to imagine the berserkers didn't channel these guys. Drugs alone won't do it.

[madhusudan]

Just found these videos. Anyone know Sifu Ruhu Zhu? As I understood, Chan Tai San was from Toisan, and Lei Fei San is also either there or nearby, I'm not sure.

Toisan White Crane:

http://www.youtube.com/user/ToisanWC/videos

[yeshe]

Having learned a little and seen a lot more I can say that is not CTS lama pai .

[madhusudan]

I mentioned CTS only because I found it interesting that Toisan would have both Lama and TWC traditions going on. If anyone is intersted, I found this info:

http://www.whitecrane.ws/about-white-crane/master-zhu/lineage.html

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1011250

Can anyone say whether Lei Fei San is teaching in Toisan? Why does the area have such a strong Lama/TWC tradition?

[taai gihk yahn]

Having learned a little and seen a lot more I can say that is not CTS lama pai .

definitely not - Sifu's stuff had certain signatures to it that were reflective of his combination of the Lama and CLF that he learned;

[David Jamieson]

Hakk Kuen also uses spirit possession, or sun-dar.
So does that funky Vietnamese school I see at tournaments sometimes....

I channel in my Uncle Moe sometimes when grappling. He had a great bearhug in his day.
Problem is, when he got older, he needed adult diapers...you don't want to channel in the old Uncle Moe....

Dude...you owe me a keyboard! :mad:

:p

[David Jamieson]

Just found these videos. Anyone know Sifu Ruhu Zhu? As I understood, Chan Tai San was from Toisan, and Lei Fei San is also either there or nearby, I'm not sure.

Toisan White Crane:

http://www.youtube.com/user/ToisanWC/videos

Toisan district is huge with millions and millions of people.

It's not hard to find completely disparate styles of TCMA coming from people who come from there. Or are there now.

[jdhowland]

Toisan district is huge with millions and millions of people.

It's not hard to find completely disparate styles of TCMA coming from people who come from there. Or are there now.

True. Lots of White Crane people from there, including Tse Cheuk Tong. He was, as far as I know, the first person to bring White Crane and Hop Ga to the U.S. in 1963.

[jdhowland]

Off the top of my head here's a list of some of the White Crane short hands:

Elbows--lots of these. The upper bau jang and downward strike to the collarbone are probably the most useful.

Jin cheui--short jab.

Pek cheui--chop, often done with the ulnar side of the wrist rather than a hammerfist.

Nau sau--grab.

Chin kiu--a trapping hand.

Jaap kiu--obstructing hand.

Kam sau--smothering/pressing with forearm.

Da cheui--short backfist.

Seung lung sau--double dragon hands, an inward elbow wrench.

Hok tauh--crane head strike with the back of wrist. The same hand shape is used for wrist hooks, also frequently trained in the system.

Jaau--monkey hand "claw" for seizing veins, nerves and muscles.

Pak sau--slaps using palm or back of hand.

Fung ngan cheui--phoenix eye strike.

Chaau cheui--hook punch.

Pok yihk--"wing beat," a short hand when used as a backfist groin strike.

Seh ying or snake shaped fist--like a panther fist but with the wrist bent outwards to strike around an obstructing arm, or bent downward to strike points on the arm.

[madhusudan]

New info to me:

"Originally known as Heyang Quan or Crane/Yang Fist; the “yang” is taken from the name of the place “HuiYang” where this system was centered."

http://eric88ling.wordpress.com/2009/08/01/%E4%BE%A0%E5%AE%B6%E6%8B%B3-xiajia-quan-or-hap-gar-kuen/

The quote is in reference to Hap Gar. Huiyang appears to be an area near Hong Kong on the mainland. Can anyone confirm or deny the above, especially the name Heyang? I'm curious.

[bawang]

heyang quan means hard crane. its a fujian short hand style.

[Gru Bianca]

heyang quan means hard crane. its a fujian short hand style.

So it's like to say that Hop Gar comes from a Fujian Crane form,...(and it would not be the first time I hear this theory) but then,...woww.....what a jump of evolution from the typical Fujian Crane forms....

[bawang]

So it's like to say that Hop Gar comes from a Fujian Crane form,...(and it would not be the first time I hear this theory) but then,...woww.....what a jump of evolution from the typical Fujian Crane forms....


no, they just borrowed the name. guangdong kung fu likes to "borrow"
other styles names. hung kuen, mui fa, lo han, siu lam, ng ying etc.

[Gru Bianca]

.......
for written documents, one of the republican era shaolin monks wrote about the prevalence of tibetan monks in the boxer rebellion


secondary reasons include:

chinese wrestling with manchu influence use mongol and manchu terms. if you had tibetan influence you would at least have some basic words, like punch or kick.

hap kuen looks exactly like northern martial arts.

hap kuen looks nothing like sichuan and qinghai martial arts.

...........

Sorry, I was curious to know, if the monk you are referring to is 虚云..

also, to which style of the north you find the most resemblance and finally, what styles are considered to be from Sichuan and Qinghai.

Thanks

[Faruq]

it comes from oral history of martial arts in jiangsu province my hometown. during the boxing rebellion lamas introduced spirit possession to produce quick results.
chinese use qigong and taoist magic, tibetans, mongols and manchu use spirit possession.

mongols invite animal spirits, tibetans invite buddhist demon princes.

Back in the 80's when as a teenager I called Chicago's Green Dragon Society for an interview, the brochure they sent me said that was what they did in their art. They called it the Northern temple art of Chi Tao Ch'uan where they harnessed the spirits of wild animal to power their deadly techniques.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Playing games with mental visualization is a quick way to bring on mental issues is some people.

[bawang]

Sorry, I was curious to know, if the monk you are referring to is 虚云..
yes


also, to which style of the north you find the most resemblance and finally, what styles are considered to be from Sichuan and Qinghai.


extending both arms in a straight line is common in many styles of northern kung fu. this is called whipping. sichuan styles dont do this. qinghai people dont train kung fu, theyre mongols.

[YouKnowWho]

what styles are considered to be from Sichuan?

This form came from Sichuan. It was supposed to be the dragon style.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85nMTfiH9_k

[yeshe]

That aint from Sichuan and it aint dragon style.Its the beginner long fist form lien bu quan .

[yeshe]

Yeah,northern styles stretch their arm out though from what I seen from Lama is that they got a whole different set of ideas than a lota other styles.

[YouKnowWho]

That aint from Sichuan and it aint dragon style.Its the beginner long fist form lien bu quan .
The Lien Bu Quan has nothing to do with the longfist system. Any longfist student can skip this form without losing anything. The bow-arrow stance cross punch was added in by GM Han Ching-Tan. It was not there in the original form. What kind of longfist basic training form doesn't even have bow-arrow stance cross punch?

http://img571.imageshack.us/img571/3836/punchz.jpg

Dragon Fist also known as "Continuous Stepping Fist". It was created by grand master Liu Chong Jun, President of the Sichuan Martial Association, about 100 years ago. It was introduced in National Nanjing Wushu college & became a mandatory subject for wushu students. Fast movements are well-arranged & balanced. This is often known as Lien Bu and used as a "basic" set though, technically it does not serve that purpose all that well in that it has few truly basic movements. It is very common, the first form taught, for example in the Northern Shaolin system. This version, taught by the teacher with three helpers, bears little resemblance to the typical beginning level version - though it is definitely the same form. It is a fluid set with some complex hand actions.

[bawang]

Yeah,northern styles stretch their arm out though from what I seen from Lama is that they got a whole different set of ideas than a lota other styles.

in northern styles haymakers are only used once, never linked

[jdhowland]

chinese wrestling with manchu influence use mongol and manchu terms. if you had tibetan influence you would at least have some basic words, like punch or kick.

I've wondered about this. There is no Tibetan terminology in lama style, but why should there be? I never believed that Sing Lung/ Gold Hook was a Tibetan lama. But he also was not Cantonese and had trouble with the language. His art could have been a Chinese system originating in the north (in an area that was formerly eastern Tibet). His southern students were familiar with local systems and the terminology was borrowed.

Unlike many northern systems lama style does not have poems for most of its sets. I think master Fong Kwan is correct when he asserted that lama style had no specific sets until the period of development in Gwangdong (c. 1850-1950).

[Gru Bianca]

I've wondered about this. There is no Tibetan terminology in lama style, but why should there be? I never believed that Sing Lung/ Gold Hook was a Tibetan lama. But he also was not Cantonese and had trouble with the language. His art could have been a Chinese system originating in the north (in an area that was formerly eastern Tibet). His southern students were familiar with local systems and the terminology was borrowed.

Unlike many northern systems lama style does not have poems for most of its sets. I think master Fong Kwan is correct when he asserted that lama style had no specific sets until the period of development in Gwangdong (c. 1850-1950).

If the "lama" system was originated in the North as Bawang suggests then shouldn't we be able to find still some traces in the North??? Some style that closely resemble it?

In our tradition it is mentioned that Aduato was from Qinghai and I honestly do not really care whether the system stems out of some Tibetan origin martial art or not but what I think (very personal idea) is that it could have been originated in the once upon a time in history known as Khan region (east part of the now days Sichuan province) which was then considered part of Tibet and any way under the Tibetan cultural influence. (Still today that region is under a strong Tibetan culture influence, with I heard very "wild" people :D)

Sing Long may have well not been a Tibetan in term or ethnicity but he could have well been a monk from the Lama tradition (whether Tibetan or Han ethnicity).

I still remember the first time I went to visit the Yonghegong 雍和宫temple in Beijing (Lama Temple) in 1994 and while I was setting my first steps inside it I saw a young "monk" (perhaps not a real monk as more a layman providing service at the temple, but he was wearing robes) which was walking towards my direction swinging his arm in what it was clear to me to be a martial technique (i.e. a fist form) but which nature was unfamiliar to me and my till that time experience.
It wasn't until I started with Pak Hok Pai that that episode came back to me with full clarity on what that fist form was....it was a Pao choy, the dots were finally connected.

I can't of course vouch that that monk was practising something similar to mine or whether he was just playing around but I personally feel when he was swinging it it was with martial intent.

Just a memory recollection

[TenTigers]

Pigua, tong bei, cha chuan seem to have some similarities.

[jdhowland]

Gru Bianca;1183003]If the "lama" system was originated in the North as Bawang suggests then shouldn't we be able to find still some traces in the North??? Some style that closely resemble it?

Gru, I have been trying to find related systems as well. Many elements do, as Bawang noted, look "just like northern" systems. But I find no evidence of anything that seems to be a sister style.

Maybe if we find a northern style that features a double paau cheui we will have found it.

The genius behind lama style is that the emphasis always seems to be on training, power structure and conditioning and not on prescriptive technique.



Sing Long may have well not been a Tibetan in term or ethnicity but he could have well been a monk from the Lama tradition (whether Tibetan or Han ethnicity).

I agree. I don't know how well he would have been received by other buddhist monks in the south. I have read that maht jung/ mi zong budhism largely died out in China centuries ago even though it survived in Korea and Japan. If he was a fighting monk he need not have been a scholar or lama guru so I am doubtful about some of the claims that he became an abbot, but he may well have been a revered member of monastic communities. Some warrior monks were known to retire from their hard and dangerous lives to become scholarly or meditative lamas.


I still remember the first time I went to visit the Yonghegong 雍和宫temple in Beijing (Lama Temple) in 1994 and while I was setting my first steps inside it I saw a young "monk" (perhaps not a real monk as more a layman providing service at the temple, but he was wearing robes) which was walking towards my direction swinging his arm in what it was clear to me to be a martial technique (i.e. a fist form) but which nature was unfamiliar to me and my till that time experience.
It wasn't until I started with Pak Hok Pai that that episode came back to me with full clarity on what that fist form was....it was a Pao choy, the dots were finally connected.

That's a good anecdote. I lived with a Tibetan lama at a dharma center in Hawaii. He was a "dancer" as well as a full master of the Kagyu sect. I never got to see him dance because it was a secret ritual, not a performance art for spectators. But here's the thing: he was a skinny guy but amazingly muscular; his biceps and triceps bulged in his arms. You don't get that from the preparatory dummo exercises. My room was next to his and he spent most of the day in seclusion and I rarelly heard a sound from him. He told me that the Asian way of maintaining military superiority is to hide what you can do and pretend to be weak until the moment you need your strength.

[jdhowland]

Pigua, tong bei, cha chuan seem to have some similarities.

True. Doesn't tong bei refer to power through the back? That's also a principle of White Crane training.

[Gru Bianca]

Pigua, tong bei, cha chuan seem to have some similarities.

Not to be picky nor to give the impression to not take into account other people's contribution, but for my personal observation (as such questionable I admit) I find it to be a bit of a stretch the comparison with Tong Bei or Cha Quan; I confess I find Pigua perhaps the closest along side with a version of Hong Quan which video was once posted by Bawang not else for the double Tsinchoy (both arms stretched out in the opposite direction)

Ironically what I found to be closer to our tradition is the way some Kalahary Payatu move

[Gru Bianca]

I agree. I don't know how well he would have been received by other buddhist monks in the south. I have read that maht jung/ mi zong budhism largely died out in China centuries ago even though it survived in Korea and Japan. If he was a fighting monk he need not have been a scholar or lama guru so I am doubtful about some of the claims that he became an abbot, but he may well have been a revered member of monastic communities. Some warrior monks were known to retire from their hard and dangerous lives to become scholarly or meditative Lamas


.

Good point, however as I mentioned yesterday, Mizong Buddhism is (and has always been alive) in Beijing and the west part of Sichuan and the Qinghai region, not to forget Inner and Outer Mongolia.
That said I strongly believe you are spot on with doubting of Sing Long ever being an abbot at some temple; when I went (not long ago) to visit the Qing Yun monastery to search info on our past history I did not find any mention of him in any chart of the Temple's genealogy. The only mention I have found of a Sheng Long (written 升龙) is in a book I bought at the temple. The part mentioning this Sheng Long was saying he was from Guangdong province and a student of the Shaolin tradition...not exactly a Lama :p

[bawang]

i dont have problem with the legend. i have problem with your motive. wong yanlim was number 1 fighter in guangdong but you guys always downplay him and emphasize the exotic kung fu lama.
hap kuen is famous in guangdong for being gangster kung fu. but you guys always advertise it to americans as mystical lama fu.

caravan run to qinghai was the most dangerous route in china. in other parts you can talk your way out or pay a road fee. sometimes your sihing is just playing the bandit to scare the merchants. in qinghai a fourth of the caravan guard dies each trip.
qinghai is where mongols swear an oath to not return to their tribe until they shed blood.

if wong yanlim really worked there then he is a bona fide badass of badasses. why the lama fetish? did this lama fetish start with that shaolin vs lama movie?

[Gru Bianca]

i dont have problem with the legend. i have problem with your motive. wong yanlim was number 1 fighter in guangdong but you guys always downplay him and emphasize the exotic kung fu lama.
hap kuen is famous in guangdong for being gangster kung fu. but you guys always advertise it to americans as mystical lama fu.

caravan run to qinghai was the most dangerous route in china. in other parts you can talk your way out or pay a road fee. sometimes your sihing is just playing the bandit to scare the merchants. in qinghai a fourth of the caravan guard dies each trip.
qinghai is where mongols swear an oath to not return to their tribe until they shed blood.

if wong yanlim really worked there then he is a bona fide badass of badasses. why the lama fetish? did this lama fetish start with that shaolin vs lama movie?

ahahahah.... interesting reading....however I need to clarify myself; I do not really care about the "Lama" thing, it's just interesting trying to understand more about the origin, that's all, not that the "Lama" thing gives to the style any additional feature so to speak...

Secondly,.. I do not really refer to Huang Ying Lin that much as in our tradition our reference person is Wang Lin Kai which perhaps judging by his picture may have not been as bad ass as his Kungfu brother Huang Ying lin but...who cares really :D

[Faruq]

i dont have problem with the legend. i have problem with your motive. wong yanlim was number 1 fighter in guangdong but you guys always downplay him and emphasize the exotic kung fu lama.

I just googled Huang Ying Lin and nothing came up. Anybody got any bio links for him? And I though CLC was #1.

[jdhowland]

I just googled Huang Ying Lin and nothing came up. Anybody got any bio links for him? And I though CLC was #1.

Try "Hop Gar," "Wong Yan Lum," Wohng Yen Lam, Yan Lin,..." No standard roman orthography for Cantonese.

[Faruq]

Try "Hop Gar," "Wong Yan Lum," Wohng Yen Lam, Yan Lin,..." No standard roman orthography for Cantonese.

Thanks, JD. Hey, but if he's Hop Gar then isn't Bawang contradicting himself in saying that Wong Yan Lum was the number 1 fighter in Canton, but everybody overlooks him for the mystical Lama kung fu? Now I'm really confused, lol.:confused:

[jdhowland]

Thanks, JD. Hey, but if he's Hop Gar then isn't Bawang contradicting himself in saying that Wong Yan Lum was the number 1 fighter in Canton, but everybody overlooks him for the mystical Lama kung fu? Now I'm really confused, lol.:confused:

Most famous for his time, possibly. Hahp was a nickname meaning hero or patriot. One of his students called his art Hap Gar but there is no proof that Wong ever used the term. Before that it was supposedly called by various names including Lion's Roar and Lama boxing.

We will never come up with a definitive answer as to the origins of "Tibetan White Crane" but the trick is to gather enough information to make an educated guess as to whether the system originated among Tibetans in what is now northern China or was begun by a bunch of triad gangsters in the south about 120 years ago and hence of unknown but still northern origin.

Or ignore the previous generations and just say that this white crane school originated with Ng Siu Jung 100 years ago. Still, Wong Yen Lum was influential in all branches of "Lama fist" and is revered for his accomplishments in all branches. White Crane teachers admit that WYL was senior to and helped to train their founder's teacher. But since they see their branch as beginning with WYL's kung fu brother Wong Lum Hoi they don't add WYL to the lineage.

Complicated enough?

[Gru Bianca]

Most famous for his time, possibly. Hahp was a nickname meaning hero or patriot. One of his students called his art Hap Gar but there is no proof that Wong ever used the term. Before that it was supposedly called by various names including Lion's Roar and Lama boxing.

We will never come up with a definitive answer as to the origins of "Tibetan White Crane" but the trick is to gather enough information to make an educated guess as to whether the system originated among Tibetans in what is now northern China or was begun by a bunch of triad gangsters in the south about 120 years ago and hence of unknown but still northern origin.

Or ignore the previous generations and just say that this white crane school originated with Ng Siu Jung 100 years ago. Still, Wong Yen Lum was influential in all branches of "Lama fist" and is revered for his accomplishments in all branches. White Crane teachers admit that WYL was senior to and helped to train their founder's teacher. But since they see their branch as beginning with WYL's kung fu brother Wong Lum Hoi they don't add WYL to the lineage.

Complicated enough?

you are always a pleasure to read John, I'd like to add, if I may, one thing that more often then not is overlooked at; Great emphases is placed in Wang Lam Hoy (in the TWC side of the family) but I think more recognition should be given to Chu Chi Yao 朱子烧 as well as he was also an important puzzle peace in the formation of the Ng brothers...(Ng Siu Chung and Ng Siu Chang and their sister) and another direct student of Sing Long

[jdhowland]

...I'd like to add, if I may, one thing that more often then not is overlooked at; Great emphases is placed in Wang Lam Hoy (in the TWC side of the family) but I think more recognition should be given to Chu Chi Yao 朱子烧 as well as he was also an important puzzle peace in the formation of the Ng brothers...(Ng Siu Chung and Ng Siu Chang and their sister) and another direct student of Sing Long

Very interesting. I would like to learn more about Chu. Was he related to the Ng's by marriage, perhaps?

Some white crane folks even say that Chu may have been senior to Wong Yan Lum. It would be interesting to know if he has any surviving family.

[Gru Bianca]

Very interesting. I would like to learn more about Chu. Was he related to the Ng's by marriage, perhaps?

Some white crane folks even say that Chu may have been senior to Wong Yan Lum. It would be interesting to know if he has any surviving family.

I do not think he was family related with the Ng as I have never heard such a hypothesis in the past, and I have also not heard of the "voice" wanting him to be senior to Wong Yan Lam.

To find out whether he had surviving family it is not really impossible (as it is not impossible to know for Wong Yan Lam and Wang Lam Hoy), Chinese are really great for these kind of things and some tools of research do exist (家谱) but it is a very time and energy demanding task.

[htowndragon]

Does anyone know what lineage of White Crane Ruhu Zhu is? I read his website and saw his lineage but I have never heard those names before. I'm concluding it's some offshoot line of Bak Hok Pai. Any input?

[madhusudan]

I'm really excited. I just got my hands on a book, published in Hong Kong, entitled Lama Pai Quan Ji written by Yinseng. Iti Chinese, so it will be quite a little project to translate its 77 pages. I was told the first two chapters are on the formation and current history of the style. Next are the 8 punches, followed by mok yee pai both with illustrations and text. Finally there is what appears to be a form of 88 movements.

Anyone interested in helping get this text translated? Anyone own this book and have a translation?

[jdhowland]

Anyone interested in helping get this text translated? Anyone own this book and have a translation?

I have a copy but never tried to translate anything but the names of techniques. My reading comprehension is still poor.

[madhusudan]

I also have two more books coming, hopefully. The library here is having trouble locating them and informed me it may take up to 3 months. Those books are:

Lama Quan Pai: El Kung Fu de los Monjes Guererros del Tibet "bases y fundamentos"
-Alca�ntara Castilla, Fermi�n

Lama Pai Kung Fu
- Prat, Jose� Mari�a

Has anyone read either of those?

I'm just getting back in shape and starting my training again after some lost years. Glad to see Lama/Hop Gar/TWC info becoming a little more available. I'm gonna train hard for a year on my own with what I remember in order to justify to myself flying somewhere to train with someone. Maybe Vancouver, maybe Las Vegas, there's Hop Gar in the Georgia & N. Carolina, I think there's also Lama in Chicago, I found something in SoCal and that's just the Lama/Hop Gar. Where else? Maybe I'll make a vacation out of it. I've heard the wife mention Vancouver & Vegas, so it would be easier to get there without a battle.

[jdhowland]

=madhusudan;1183331Lama Quan Pai: El Kung Fu de los Monjes Guererros del Tibet "bases y fundamentos"
-Alca�ntara Castilla, Fermi�n

Lama Pai Kung Fu
- Prat, Jose� Mari�a

Has anyone read either of those?

I have not. Sifu Carlo Tonti has also written a book on the system. I tried to order it from Europe but apparently they were unable to do overseas orders.


I'm just getting back in shape and starting my training again after some lost years. Glad to see Lama/Hop Gar/TWC info becoming a little more available. I'm gonna train hard for a year on my own with what I remember in order to justify to myself flying somewhere to train with someone. Maybe Vancouver, maybe Las Vegas, there's Hop Gar in the Georgia & N. Carolina, I think there's also Lama in Chicago, I found something in SoCal and that's just the Lama/Hop Gar. Where else? Maybe I'll make a vacation out of it. I've heard the wife mention Vancouver & Vegas, so it would be easier to get there without a battle.

Do you mind if I ask who you trained with? Some of the teachers are hard to find but there is an informal network of "lama" stylists who tend to be pretty friendly and interested in making contacts. British Columbia and Alberta have more options than most places outside of Hong Kong.

[Gru Bianca]

I have not. Sifu Carlo Tonti has also written a book on the system. I tried to order it from Europe but apparently they were unable to do overseas orders.
.

Oh..John, you know about that book? :) I didn't know you were interested in it but if you are perhaps I could help you with that, I think I might have an extra copy of which I need to check the language :).

It's not gonna be very conversational as it's mainly pictures introducing the Lao Xing Kune and it's applications....

Let me know.

Ciao

PS: would it be possible for you to send me photocopies of that Lama Pai Quan ji?

Thanks

[madhusudan]

Hi jd,

Over the short time I trained, I learned the Lama basics, a few forms, palms and elbows and other stuff from Ross and Ventura in NYC when they were both still teaching Lama Pai classes. That was over a decade ago. I doubt they'd remember me, as I was just another student passing through, and not a particularly gifted one at that. I ended up leaving NY for other adventures, but had been bitten by the Lion's Roar bug. Despite training in other arts since then, I've always considered myself a Lama practitioner. As I've recently begun to come to terms with mortality and getting a little older, I've decided to pursue my interests and passions with greater urgency. We only have this one life, so by the end of it I want to be fairly sure I spent my time well. In a nutshell, as it were.

[jdhowland]

...would it be possible for you to send me photocopies of that Lama Pai Quan ji?

Thanks

Of course. I'll try to dig it up for you. I had forgot that I even had it until I saw the link madhusudan posted. I think I found it in a Chinese book store in Honolulu around 1980.

[jdhowland]

...Despite training in other arts since then, I've always considered myself a Lama practitioner. As I've recently begun to come to terms with mortality and getting a little older, I've decided to pursue my interests and passions with greater urgency. We only have this one life, so by the end of it I want to be fairly sure I spent my time well. In a nutshell, as it were.

I think I know what you mean. I turned 58 a couple of months ago and there is still so much I would like to learn.

Best of luck in your efforts.

[jdhowland]

PS: would it be possible for you to send me photocopies of that Lama Pai Quan ji?



Found it. I'll make photocopies.

[jdhowland]

[QUOTE=madhusudan;1177194. Anyone care to comment on developing chyuhn / penetration?[/QUOTE]

Chyun is the agressive counterpart to sim/evasion. It is about attacking into an attack while your opponent is committed to a strike and landing a blow before he can alter his position. Ideally, there should be no blocking/parrying of your opponent's strike but there is often a grazing contact and slight deflection with your own strike, a "needle piercing cotton." This can only be done when there is skill with the sim aspect.

To begin training this practice with a partner who gets to hit you whenever he wishes. Try to pivot and slip the blows but don't strike back. Just practice looking for openings. To a limited degree you can practice looking for openings in your own image reflected from a full length mirror.

The power for chyun comes from che sahn and heavy bag work.

[Baihequan]

Just found these videos. Anyone know Sifu Ruhu Zhu? As I understood, Chan Tai San was from Toisan, and Lei Fei San is also either there or nearby, I'm not sure.

Toisan White Crane:

http://www.youtube.com/user/ToisanWC/videos

Hi i am a student of this style! Master Ruhu Zhu was my Sigung. He had past away 3 years ago from a sudden illness. His background was immense. He had studied Hung gar, Choy lee fut and many other styles. Only once becoming a high level Choy lee fut practitioner he was chosen to learn Toisan White Crane. His Sifu Yuen Tak Wen had learned the system from monk Chen Tin Leung.

We have 3 main fists- By utilizing proper body alignment, shifting of weight and twisting of the waist. These aspects of form are essential in generating power in punches as they compliment one another

Chuin- is a piercing strike with emphasis on punching through the target. This strike may be executed via open palm, closed fist or fingers. Targets may include the eyes, throat and other points on the body.

Pow is similar to an uppercut. The fist is closed and swings in an upward arc (palm up) This fist is useful for breaking the bridge of an opponent. Targets can include elbows, hands, legs or anything else that is presented by an opponent. Pow has many variations.

Kahp is similar to Pow but swings in a downward arc over the shoulder similar to the mechanics of throwing a baseball. Both techniques greatly compliment each other and are interchangeable. That is, Pow may be thrown and immediately reversed into Cup or vice versa. There are several variations of Kahp.

Here is our schools website- www.whitecrane.ws

[Baihequan]

In the only fighting competition I've been in, a Kyokushin Karate tournament, I was knocked out (unable to continue) from a good hard body shot. I also love body shot knockouts in boxing. I think there is a compilation on a tube website.

Anyone care to comment on developing chyuhn / penetration?

You must first train the waist to disconnect from upper body. Think of a whip and how it moves. The power is generated from the root. Basic practice in the first stage is waist turns with the hands out at the side like a " T " if you will. Second stage is sitting in crane stance and shifting back and forth in the stance with hands like the first stage. Third stage we learn to use the hands. The hands start like the " T"
but the front hand crosses over and the back hand shoots under to strike. The power is like a pully system. Once the hand comes back the other one is moving forward. This is done in connection with the waist turning to create the punch. When the waist turns the hand shoots out. The waist sort of pushes the hand out so by driving up from the root it explodes out. It is soft until contact then hard when making the impact then soft again. like a whip. The style i practice is Toisan white crane under the lineage of Ruhu Zhu.

[htowndragon]

My question got lost in this thread. Is your White Crane descended from Ng Siu Chung? In other words, your terms and style looks like it could be a line of what is known as Tibetan White Crane.