Alan Orr Wing Chun Questions 6 -Turning in Chi Sao

[Alan Orr]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fdiO9WudLM&feature=plcp

I just loaded up -

Alan Orr Wing Chun Questions 6 -Turning in Chi Sao

This clips shows some of the different Principles in turning in the Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun system.

Bridging the understanding of Chi Sao (being a drill - live or not) to sparring / fighting application.

[WC1277]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fdiO9WudLM&feature=plcp

I just loaded up -

Alan Orr Wing Chun Questions 6 -Turning in Chi Sao

This clips shows some of the different Principles in turning in the Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun system.

Bridging the understanding of Chi Sao (being a drill - live or not) to sparring / fighting application.

I agree with that "basic" concept in regards to turning. We do the same. Your eyes may have deceived you...

[Jeff_H]

Turning with a floating base does not work against pressure. I take their center gravity and force them to retreat or collapse every time they shift away from head to head facing. Shifting to side and turing relies on speed and distraction too much.

[Alan Orr]

Turning with a floating base does not work against pressure. I take their center gravity and force them to retreat or collapse every time they shift away from head to head facing. Shifting to side and turing relies on speed and distraction too much.

Yes I agree with that.

[Jeff_H]

If you agree well that is what I saw in video. Is the video a example of what not to do?

[wingchunIan]

[QUOTE=Jeff_H;1175084]Turning with a floating base does not work against pressure. QUOTE]

Doesn't it also require the ability to levitate? I can't speak for other lineages but when I turn (which just for info is a bit different to the way Alan turns in his clip) my body mass stays rooted.
As far as being uprooted because you've turned, only possible if you can change direction more quickly otherwise your line of force is pressing against something that isn't there anymore.
Are you saying that you don't turn in your lineage? or that you have a different way of doing things?

[Hendrik]

Turning with a floating base does not work against pressure. I take their center gravity and force them to retreat or collapse every time they shift away from head to head facing. Shifting to side and turing relies on speed and distraction too much.

IMHO,

It has to do with de linking before turn , and not as much as float or root based.

Root based with no de link is even worse the floating based, for the rooting is what cause one to get bounce away via fajing uproot. The fajing guy who can uproot love rooting opponent who cannot delink.

[wingchunIan]

IMHO,

It has to do with de linking before turn , and not as much as float or root based.

Root based with no de link is even worse the floating based, for the rooting is what cause one to get bounce away via fajing uproot. The fajing guy who can uproot love rooting opponent who cannot delink.

Hendrik, with all due respect I'm glad to say that I have no idea what you are talking about!

[Hendrik]

Hendrik, with all due respect I'm glad to say that I have no idea what you are talking about!

No problem.

There is a discussion in Alan angling and pressure threat. About the six degree of freedom, angling shifting, linking delinking, loading releasing.

May be you want to check it out there.

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1175260&postcount=45

That back off doesn't mean back off all the way, just a slight off to unbonding the two momentums or pressure or structure. To create a gap for play.

[JPinAZ]

IMHO,

It has to do with de linking before turn , and not as much as float or root based.

Root based with no de link is even worse the floating based, for the rooting is what cause one to get bounce away via fajing uproot. The fajing guy who can uproot love rooting opponent who cannot delink.

This is all just talk and theory. Unless you practice and apply this with a real live, resisting partner, you have no idea what you are talking about. Since you say you don't spar, and since you have no students that can demonstrate this, I'm calling BS - you don't KNOW this to be true thru actual experience. Unless you can give us just ONE name of someone you train with that can verify you actually can pull ANYTHING off... ;)

[Hendrik]

This is all just talk and theory.

Unless you practice and apply this with a real live, resisting partner, you have no idea what you are talking about.

Since you say you don't spar, and since you have no students that can demonstrate this, I'm calling BS - you don't KNOW this to be true thru actual experience.

Unless you can give us just ONE name of someone you train with that can verify you actually can pull ANYTHING off... ;)




the above is an "ignore physical reality" talk.

usually given by those who doesnt aware of the physical reality. but thinking know it all.

physcal reality doesnt have to do with any one or any names , either one knows it make use of it. or one dont know it and control by it.

I really think people needs to get more intelligent these days instead of similar to joining a cult believing " Yes, mind over matter. the heck with law of physics."

when one doesnt even aware of these basic physical reality, that is really tell the level of one's martial art.

[Robinhood]

the above is an "ignore physical reality" talk.

usually given by those who doesnt aware of the physical reality. but thinking know it all.

physcal reality doesnt have to do with any one or any names , either one knows it make use of it. or one dont know it and control by it.

I really think people needs to get more intelligent these days instead of similar to joining a cult believing " Yes, mind over matter. the heck with law of physics."

when one doesnt even aware of these basic physical reality, that is really tell the level of one's martial art.

Henrick, it does not do much good to keep telling these guys that they don't have something, they have no clue what your talking about, and will never see it even if you post videos .

The only way you can even hope for them to even be aware that there is something else going on, is to actually do it on them, still then they still won't have a clue what your doing, but might realize that they don't know they dont know if they are smart.

Why do you waste your time?, If you really want people to realize that WC is more than just tag like slap fighting, you need to have them visit you, and show them first hand.

Good Luck

[Hendrik]

Henrick, it does not do much good to keep telling these guys that they don't have something, they have no clue what your talking about, and will never see it even if you post videos .

The only way you can even hope for them to even be aware that there is something else going on, is to actually do it on them, still then they still won't have a clue what your doing, but might realize that they don't know they dont know if they are smart.

Why do you waste your time?, If you really want people to realize that WC is more than just tag like slap fighting, you need to have them visit you, and show them first hand.

Good Luck

Thanks!

I take your advise and shut up here on with this issue.

[nasmedicine]

Why do you waste your time?, If you really want people to realize that WC is more than just tag like slap fighting, you need to have them visit you, and show them first hand.

Good Luck

Well said, I couldn't have put it any better myself. It's pointless to argue. The proof is in the pudding. Only way to know is to touch hands (instant lie detector).

Cheers,

-Nirav

[guy b.]

Hendrik, with all due respect I'm glad to say that I have no idea what you are talking about!

There isn't anything to know that you don't already know. Hendrik's words are simply pedantic over-elaboration. This chatter is superfluous, acting to obscure understanding rather than aid learning. Scrape away the babble and over-categorisation and you will find that people like Hendrik are saying things that any child understands implicitly after their first playground scuffle.

Linking and delinking are connecting or disconnecting the point of contact (or potential contact) with your structure, respectively. Being linked can be both a benefit (expressing power via structure) or a disadvantage (being moved around by opponent through permanently linked structure). Everyone knows this in their body, even if they don't know it mentally. All decent wrestlers are good at linking and delinking.

Borrowing and releasing are similarly easy to understand. Borrowing is loading force into the structure via the natural springs of the body (joints, fascia, tendons properly aligned), while releasing is giving that loaded force back. It is that embarrassingly simple. Sensible structure can augment the ability of the body to store loaded force, but to be honest many Chinese MA over complicate this and end up being ridiculous abstractions of once sensible ideas. Again wrestling is probably the most simple and direct way to learn variations of this obvious idea.

Other stuff like the oft quoted "float sink swallow spit" formula refers simply to ways of influencing the opponent's "root" (COG), thereby providing opportunities to hurt or control him. Simple.

It is all so simple that people like Hendrik are desperate for it not to be. Hence their invention of endless layers of pointless complexity. It is like doing a doctorate in basic addition and subtraction (i.e. a complete waste of time). Save your time and don't get drawn into the mental sinkhole.

[GlennR]

Henrick, it does not do much good to keep telling these guys that they don't have something, they have no clue what your talking about, and will never see it even if you post videos .

The only way you can even hope for them to even be aware that there is something else going on, is to actually do it on them, still then they still won't have a clue what your doing, but might realize that they don't know they dont know if they are smart.

Why do you waste your time?, If you really want people to realize that WC is more than just tag like slap fighting, you need to have them visit you, and show them first hand.

Good Luck

Theres one born every minute or so the saying goes

[JPinAZ]

Henrick, it does not do much good to keep telling these guys that they don't have something, they have no clue what your talking about, and will never see it even if you post videos .

No, it does no good because Hendrik's constant incomprehensible babbling doesn't make sense to ANY rational thinking, sane person.


The only way you can even hope for them to even be aware that there is something else going on, is to actually do it on them, still then they still won't have a clue what your doing, but might realize that they don't know they dont know if they are smart.

Why do you waste your time?, If you really want people to realize that WC is more than just tag like slap fighting, you need to have them visit you, and show them first hand.

Good Luck

Hahaha, that's funny. Hey, just for fun, I'd be more than happy to have hendrik show me in person. I'm out in his area once or twice every year, I'd accept any invite he puts out. I'll even bring a camera and film it so everyone here can see if he really has the goods or not, or is just full of krap. ;)

[GlennR]

Hahaha, that's funny. Hey, just for fun, I'd be more than happy to have hendrik show me in person. I'm out in his area once or twice every year, I'd accept any invite he puts out. I'll even bring a camera and film it so everyone here can see if he really has the goods or not, or is just full of krap. ;)



That will never happen, he only invites like minded individuals.

Tea and scones in his lounge room id guess ;)

[Robinhood]

That will never happen, he only invites like minded individuals.

Tea and scones in his lounge room id guess ;)



Its more of a question of why would he want to ?

[Frost]

is it me or is this thread about 12 pages shorter than i remember....?

[sanjuro_ronin]

is it me or is this thread about 12 pages shorter than i remember....?

BBBWWWAAHHHH !!!
Welcome to wing chun !!
Shortest distance between two points is a delete button !!

[Frost]

BBBWWWAAHHHH !!!
Welcome to wing chun !!
Shortest distance between two points is a delete button !!

LMAO id like to say all that deleting made the thread better....but then hendrick started again!

[YouKnowWho]

LMAO id like to say all that deleting made the thread better....but then hendrick started again!

What bother me the most is Hendrick sometime may force you to respond to his question. If you don't, he will say that you just don't know. If you do, he just

- ignore what you have said,
- point out that you are not a WC guy (by his standard).
- point out that you are not an "internal" guy (by his standard), and
- still continue his own preaching.

To have discussion with him is a lose-lose situation. He will have no intention to change his mind. It's just to kill some free boring time.

[Robinhood]

What bother me the most is Hendrick sometime may force you to respond to his question. If you don't, he will say that you just don't know. If you do, he just

- ignore what you have said,
- point out that you are not a WC guy (by his standard).
- point out that you are not a "internal" guy (by his standard), and
- still continue his own preaching.

To have discussion with him is a lose-lose situation. He will have no intention to change his mind. It's just to kill some free boring time.


John, your pretty close to Henrick, maybe you guys should get together for better discussion.



Cheers

[YouKnowWho]

The fajing guy who can uproot love rooting opponent who cannot delink.
I don't know about the definition "link and delink" that you use here. Let's assume that:

- link is I grab on your arm.
- delink is I relase my grip.

If I don't "delink (release my grip)", our bodies are still connected as one unit. Your root is also my root at that moment. How can you uproot me?

[YouKnowWho]

....but then hendrick started again!

I have to say that without hendrick here, this forum may be a bit too quite.

A: My opinion is ...
B: I agree with you 100% there.

How much fun can we have if all threads are like this?

[Frost]

What bother me the most is Hendrick sometime may force you to respond to his question. If you don't, he will say that you just don't know. If you do, he just

- ignore what you have said,
- point out that you are not a WC guy (by his standard).
- point out that you are not an "internal" guy (by his standard), and
- still continue his own preaching.

To have discussion with him is a lose-lose situation. He will have no intention to change his mind. It's just to kill some free boring time.

no one with any real experience bothers with him Jon i wouldnt worry :)

[Frost]

I have to say that without hendrick here, this forum may be a bit too quite.

A: My opinion is ...
B: I agree with you 100% there.

How much fun can we have if all threads are like this?

nope knifefighter made for good discussions, Ultimate winghun made for fun times as well, hendrick is too much like HW108 for it to be any fun

[Robinhood]

I don't know about the definition "link and delink" that you use here. Let's assume that:

- link is I grab on your arm.
- delink is I relase my grip.

If I don't "delink (release my grip)", our bodies are still connected as one unit. Your root is also my root at that moment. How can you uproot me?

I am pretty sure that is not what he is talking about.

Just because you have contact with someone, does not mean you have a connection that you are able to use.


Cheers

[YouKnowWho]

I am pretty sure that is not what he is talking about.

Just because you have contact with someone, does not mean you have a connection that you are able to use.


Cheers
You can change a "contact" into a "connection". That's what the

- WC Fu Shou,
- XingYi Pi 劈抓(Pi Zhua),
- Mantis Diao Shou,
- Taiji Lu,
- ...

are all used for. When you punch, the moment that your opponent blocks it, you change your punch into a "hook". You pull your opponent's arm toward you and punch him with another hand.

This is the difference between a "striker" and a "grappler". To a striker, a contact is good enough. To a grappler, he is looking for a connection.

[Robinhood]

You can change a "contact" into a "connection". That's what the

- WC Fu Shou,
- XingYi Pi 劈抓(Pi Zhua),
- Mantis Diao Shou,
- Taiji Lu,
- ...

are all used for. When you punch, the moment that your opponent blocks it, you change your punch into a "hook". You pull your opponent's arm toward you and punch him with another hand.

This is the difference between a "striker" and a "grappler". To a striker, a contact is good enough. To a grappler, he is looking for a connection.

I don't think you are following what I am saying about connection properties, nothing to do with striker or wrestler.


Cheers

[guy b.]

I don't know about the definition "link and delink" that you use here. Let's assume that:

- link is I grab on your arm.
- delink is I relase my grip.

If I don't "delink (release my grip)", our bodies are still connected as one unit. Your root is also my root at that moment. How can you uproot me?

You can link your structure to an opponents COG by grabbing on and delink by releasing, but there is more than this to it as I'm sure you know. Linked structure is that which is aligned so as to best express the force you are giving via your point of contact. When you shoot in properly your structure is linked so as to express force and momentum forwards while maintaining posture and your force generating structure is linked to the opponent via the point of contact. Linking requires structure efficiently expressing force in desired direction and point of contact (for it to be meaningful).

Delinking can be as simple as releasing a grip but it can also be disconnecting a part of the body from overall structural integrity. A wrestler would probably best understand delinking as floppy arm given when grabbed, i.e. an arm that can't be used to move you, or what you do to your grabbed leg when someone single leg tackles you (you attempt not to let that grabbed leg influence your body structural integrity).

[YouKnowWho]

Instead of using

- "link" and "delink",

I prefer to use

- "glue" and "unglue" or
- "hook" and "unhook".

This way, there will be no mis-communication. It's very easy to "unglue". All you need is to jump back. It's not that easy to "unhook". When you jump back, you will pull your opponent with you.


Delinking can be as simple as releasing a grip but it can also be disconnecting a part of the body from overall structural integrity.
This is why I want to distinguish "glue" and "hook". In the "hook" situation, it won't do you any good if you diisconnect part of the body from overall structural integrity.

When you grab the a snake tail and swing in a circle, it won't make any difference whether that snake's spine is connected or disconnected.

This is why I prefer WC Fu Shou than the WC Tan Shou. The Fu Shou can provide me a "hook". The Tan Shou can only provide me a "glue".

[YouKnowWho]

I don't think you are following what I am saying about connection properties, nothing to do with striker or wrestler.


Cheers

I believe the "connection" that you are talking about is "gluing".

[nasmedicine]

Linking and delinking as I understand it has more to do with ones ability to control how ones joints and skeletal structure interact with and in relation to the opponents structure and the floor. An over simplified example of "linking" is routing force to the ground and rerouting that force back to the opponent (kinetic linking or another way to look at it is Newton's third law ). In more or less words delinking is the opposite. Again this is an over simplified way to look at these concepts. Just my two cents.

Cheers,

- Nirav

[Alan Orr]

IMHO,

It has to do with de linking before turn , and not as much as float or root based.

Root based with no de link is even worse the floating based, for the rooting is what cause one to get bounce away via fajing uproot. The fajing guy who can uproot love rooting opponent who cannot delink.

Yes, this is what it's all about.

Funny as people are starting to use the right words, but not many really understand it. Lots of posts telling Hendrik he has no clue, when in fact he really knows what he is talking about and he understands what I am showing.

Lots of people telling what I am doing, but its only what they think I am doing. That's not the same at all. Its no big deal. Just funny how crazy some people are about it.

We have heard a few times now that as you can see it and talk about it - then that's it. I would say there is still quite a few things you still can't really know until you feel it. Then you can see it. I have learnt the same applications many times as I build layers of understanding each time. Then you think - now I have got it. If it was as easy as watch and learn then life would be very easy.

[Alan Orr]

Linking and delinking as I understand it has more to do with ones ability to control how ones joints and skeletal structure interact with and in relation to the opponents structure and the floor. An over simplified example of "linking" is routing force to the ground and rerouting that force back to the opponent (kinetic linking or another way to look at it is Newton's third law ). In more or less words delinking is the opposite. Again this is an over simplified way to look at these concepts. Just my two cents.

Cheers,

- Nirav


Nice post and the key point is that yes it's is a simplified way of looking at it ( even through a correct way) as it's not a simple process, as some would like to think.

[nasmedicine]

Nice post and the key point is that yes it's is a simplified way of looking at it ( even through a correct way) as it's not a simple process, as some would like to think.

Absolutely agree. I the notion is simple one however this is where dynamic training of this concept is PARAMOUNT. Training with a skilled and challenging parter(s) is key to develop the subtle nuances of one's own structure.

[Hendrik]

Yes, this is what it's all about.

Funny as people are starting to use the right words, but not many really understand it. Lots of posts telling Hendrik he has no clue, when in fact he really knows what he is talking about and he understands what I am showing.

Lots of people telling what I am doing, but its only what they think I am doing. That's not the same at all. Its no big deal. Just funny how crazy some people are about it.

We have heard a few times now that as you can see it and talk about it - then that's it. I would say there is still quite a few things you still can't really know until you feel it. Then you can see it. I have learnt the same applications many times as I build layers of understanding each time. Then you think - now I have got it. If it was as easy as watch and learn then life would be very easy.



i am just an old clown chatting Om everyday and doing no fighting.

[guy b.]

Linking and delinking as I understand it has more to do with ones ability to control how ones joints and skeletal structure interact with and in relation to the opponents structure and the floor. An over simplified example of "linking" is routing force to the ground and rerouting that force back to the opponent (kinetic linking or another way to look at it is Newton's third law ). In more or less words delinking is the opposite. Again this is an over simplified way to look at these concepts. Just my two cents.

Cheers,

- Nirav
Nice post and the key point is that yes it's is a simplified way of looking at it ( even through a correct way) as it's not a simple process, as some would like to think.

Of course, and my definition agrees with that of nasmedicine. This is why I said that "Linking and delinking are connecting or disconnecting the point of contact (or potential contact) with your structure, respectively".

Meaningful "structure" cannot exist but in relation to the floor. Lol at trying to create a point of difference. There is nothing complicated in this concept, apart from the complexity created in the minds of those who attempt to own the simple truths of body mechanics.

[YouKnowWho]

"Linking and delinking are connecting or disconnecting the point of contact (or potential contact) with your structure, respectively".
This is a general TCMA principle. In the "glue" modle, when your arm touch my arm, If I think

- I'm better than you, I can maintain my structure in order to collapse your structure.
- You are better than me, I can collapse my structure, yield, and borrow your force.

[Robinhood]

I believe the "connection" that you are talking about is "gluing".


No, that does not sound right either, it is more of a bridge that can only be used by the person that has higher skill , above body level.

I think you are using terms of body level skills, which is more dependent on lots of physical body and arm movements.



Cheers

[nasmedicine]

Of course, and my definition agrees with that of nasmedicine. This is why I said that "Linking and delinking are connecting or disconnecting the point of contact (or potential contact) with your structure, respectively".

Meaningful "structure" cannot exist but in relation to the floor. Lol at trying to create a point of difference. There is nothing complicated in this concept, apart from the complexity created in the minds of those who attempt to own the simple truths of body mechanics.

Nobody said the concept was complicated. Nothing is if know and understand what you are doing no matter how the material is presented to you. Ofcourse some need things to be dumb down in order to understand and still they will never understand. This is simply do to lack of experience and proper instruction for which the answer is quite simple.. Go find a proper teacher instead of trying to learn via the explanations of persons online or even from a from a video. And if one still can't understand then it's simply not meant to be. Wouldn't you agree?

[guy b.]

This is a general TCMA principle. In the "glue" modle, when your arm touch my arm, If I think

- I'm better than you, I can maintain my structure in order to collapse your structure.
- You are better than me, I can collapse my structure, yield, and borrow your force.

It's a general principle of every fighting art on the planet.

Fakes get away with over complicating this basic fact and spelling it out slowly in lieu of useful knowledge in wing chun and other Chinese MA because most participants do not fight. To the non fighter it can indeed seem like a startling insight.

[guy b.]

Nobody said the concept was complicated. Nothing is if know and understand what you are doing no matter how the material is presented to you. Ofcourse some need things to be dumb down in order to understand and still they will never understand. This is simply do to lack of experience and proper instruction for which the answer is quite simple.. Go find a proper teacher instead of trying to learn via the explanations of persons online or even from a from a video. And if one still can't understand then it's simply not meant to be. Wouldn't you agree?

There is not any need for specific instruction to understand the idea of linking and delinking. Anybody will discover this for themselves within a few minutes of live training with a resisting opponent

[YouKnowWho]

It's a general principle of every fighting art on the planet.

Fakes get away with over complicating this basic fact and spelling it out slowly in lieu of useful knowledge in wing chun and other Chinese MA because most participants do not fight. To the non fighter it can indeed seem like a startling insight.

This just remind me someone said that to

- To put butter on bread is the most delicious food on earth.
- staying under the sun can keep you warm.

[nasmedicine]

- I'm better than you, I can maintain my structure in order to collapse your structure.
- You are better than me, I can collapse my structure, yield, and borrow your force.

That's ying yang in a nutshell. Hold structure = relatively more Yang (link) . Yeild ones structure = relatively more Yin (delink). Of course as I mentioned in one of my earlier posts this is a simplified way of looking at the concept.

Cheers,

-Nirav

[nasmedicine]

There is not any need for specific instruction to understand the idea of linking and delinking. Anybody will discover this for themselves within a few minutes of live training with a resisting opponent

Agreed, but instruction or rather coaching does help.

[guy b.]

Agreed, but instruction or rather coaching does help.

Practical coaching can help to spell out applications of the principle you might not have thought of but talking too much about it and inventing too many terms to describe something so simple is not helpful. Indeed it can be counter productive as this thread illustrates.

At the end of the day it isn't rocket science, combat bio-mechanics are universal, and there is no secret that only the initiated understand. Talk of deeper levels, superficial understanding, and so on are a red warning light that you are being sold something

[Hendrik]

There is not any need for specific instruction to understand the idea of linking and delinking. Anybody will discover this for themselves within a few minutes of live training with a resisting opponent

linking and delinking in Internal TCMA come in different depth.

for intermediate and advance level,

without a specific details and instruction or coaching.

most people unless one is born genious will never get it even in a life time of practice.

[guy b.]

linking and delinking in Internal TCMA come in different depth.

for intermediate and advance level,

without a specific details and instruction or coaching.

most people unless one is born genious will never get it even in a life time of practice.

Speak for yourself. Maybe you are just a bit slow?


Talk of deeper levels, superficial understanding, and so on are a red warning light that you are being sold something

[Hendrik]

Speak for yourself. Maybe you are just a bit slow?

yes. i am very slow.

without many sifus coaching and teaching me I will never know what I know.

[guy b.]

After you have learned the basics of how bodies move and interact I have some other startling insights that I am sure you will enjoy:

Water is wet.

Gravity makes you fall downwards.

Pain hurts.

[YouKnowWho]

linking and delinking in Internal TCMA come in different depth.

for intermediate and advance level,

without a specific details and instruction or coaching.

most people unless one is born genious will never get it even in a life time of practice.
Skill such as link and delink can only be learned by doing. It cannot be learned by talking. After you have sparred/wrestled for 15 rounds, All your Yang is gone. You only have Yin left. Your body willl learn exactly how to delink at that moment.

If you have

- gone through that process, you will develop that ability and you won't think it's a big deal.
- not gone through that process, you will think that ability is so superior that only you can understand it.

[Hendrik]

Skill such as link and delink can only be learned by doing. It cannot be learned by talking. After you have sparred/wrestled for 15 rounds, All your Yang is gone. You only have Yin left. Your body willl learn exactly how to delink at that moment.

If you have

- gone through that process, you will develop that ability and you won't think it's a big deal.
- not gone through that process, you will think that ability is so superior that only you can understand it.

May be because
I am not that smart and talented. thus, i always need a sifu to coach me on everything.

[nasmedicine]

Skill such as link and delink can only be learned by doing. It cannot be learned by talking. After you have sparred/wrestled for 15 rounds, All your Yang is gone. You only have Yin left. Your body willl learn exactly how to delink at that moment.

I agree. Well said.

[guy b.]

yes. i am very slow.

without many sifus coaching and teaching me I will never know what I know.

You are the kind of person that wishes to make things seem more complex and difficult to understand than they really are. This is an unfortunate personality trait, but all too common in Chinese martial arts unfortunately. Real martial arts is open and does not have this kind of ego.

[YouKnowWho]

make things seem more complex and difficult to understand ...

When I just learned from my friends the WC theory:

- center line,
- deflect and strike at the same time,
- ...

I was very exciting about it because none of my previous teachers ever talked about theory. Oneday a Karate school just opened in Austin. I went to visted that school. I asked the Karate instructor, "What's your fighting theory". He looked at me as if I just came from another planet.

We all had atttitude such as "I know some theory that you don't." Until our opponent's fists land on our face, we then realized that "doing is better than knowing".

[Robinhood]

When I just learned the WC theory from my friend:

- center line,
- deflect and strike at the same time,
- ...

I was very exciting about it because none of my previous teachers ever talked about theory. Oneday a Karate school just opened. I went to visted that school. I asked the Karate instructor, "What's your fighting theory". He looked at me as if I just came from another planet.

Lol, That's because karate has no theory, strong beats weak is their theory.

Which means there is nothing you need to know to apply, only method of training is to make someone stronger.


cheers

[guy b.]

Lol, That's because karate has no theory, strong beats weak is their theory.

Which means there is nothing you need to know to apply, only method of training is to make someone stronger.


cheers

Contact karate like daido or kyokushin has pretty well defined principle driven approach. They just tend not to talk about it before doing. The principle is imparted after physical 'lessons', very much the Japanese way

[Hendrik]

When I just learned from my friends the WC theory:

- center line,
- deflect and strike at the same time,
- ...

I was very exciting about it because none of my previous teachers ever talked about theory. Oneday a Karate school just opened in Austin. I went to visted that school. I asked the Karate instructor, "What's your fighting theory". He looked at me as if I just came from another planet.

We all had atttitude such as "I know some theory that you don't." Until our opponent's fists land on our face, we then realized that "doing is better than knowing".


It is more WCK strategy then theory.

[Vajramusti]

It is more WCK strategy then theory.
--------------------------------------------------

Hendrik's distinction is a good one.

[YouKnowWho]

Contact karate like daido or kyokushin has pretty well defined principle driven approach. They just tend not to talk about it before doing. The principle is imparted after physical 'lessons', very much the Japanese way
Agree!

"Don't have deep principles" and "don't want to talk about it" are 2 different things.

The Chinese wrestling has more than 70 principles. But if you can't even make your "single leg" work, none of those 70 principles will be able to help you in any way.

[k gledhill]

YKW , are you equating your wrestling to A Orrs clip ? Is chi-sao wrestling to you ?

[YouKnowWho]

YKW , are you equating your wrestling to A Orrs clip ? Is chi-sao wrestling to you ?

IMO, WC Chi-Sao, Taiji push hand, I Liq Chuan bridging, SC grip fight, ... are just the starting point. The goal can be "infinitive".

I have suggested Taiji guys to integrate head lock, over hook, under hook, bear hug, ... into their Taiji push hand training.

For example, starting from chi-sao, whoever can get a head lock (or over hook, under hook, ...) on the other person, he wins that round. The chi-sao game then start all over again. It's fun and safe game and I strongly suggest it.

[k gledhill]

IMO, WC Chi-Sao, Taiji push hand, I Liq Chuan bridging, SC grip fight, ... are just the starting point. The goal can be "infinitive".

I have suggested Taiji guys to integrate head lock, over hook, under hook, bear hug, ... into their Taiji push hand training.

For example, starting from chi-sao, whoever can get a head lock (or over hook, under hook, ...) on the other person, he wins that round. The chi-sao game then start all over again. It's fun and safe game and I strongly suggest it.

Okay, so you think its a platform for wrestling.

[JPinAZ]

Okay, so you think its a platform for wrestling.

That's not what he said at all, he said it's a 'starting point' - which the 'game' of Taan/Bong/Fook chi sau is. It's a very specific range, facing and contact points that are set up when 2 WCK people start their rolling.
From there, it was pretty clear he was saying the 'goal' could be to get into wrestling position. And from a certain POV, one of chi sau's functions is to deny entry into your space to prevent wrestling. If someone gets in to a wrestling position on you, your chi sau failed - you lose/they win. Makes sense to me.

Of course this isn't all that chi sau is, but why try to make things so complicated? John was pretty clear what he 'thinks'.

[k gledhill]

That's not what he said at all, he said it's a 'starting point' - which the 'game' of Taan/Bong/Fook chi sau is. It's a very specific range, facing and contact points that are set up when 2 WCK people start their rolling.
From there, it was pretty clear he was saying the 'goal' could be to get into wrestling position. And from a certain POV, one of chi sau's functions is to deny entry into your space to prevent wrestling. If someone gets in to a wrestling position on you, your chi sau failed - you lose/they win. Makes sense to me.

Of course this isn't all that chi sau is, but why try to make things so complicated? John was pretty clear what he 'thinks'.

Ironically Chi sao has a lot of redundancy to actual use fighting. Only an uninformed student would pursue the drill as you described.

[Wayfaring]

The Chinese wrestling has more than 70 principles. But if you can't even make your "single leg" work, none of those 70 principles will be able to help you in any way.


Russian wrestling has one principle that makes it > Chinese wrestling.

This principle is "the funk".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptaNak1B3_Q

[Happy Tiger]

Russian wrestling has one principle that makes it > Chinese wrestling.

This principle is "the funk".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptaNak1B3_Q
That's pretty 'funky' wrestling, man

[Wayfaring]

Okay, so you think its a platform for wrestling.

Only when rolling with people who have no clinch skills or the ability to prevent it.

:cool:

[k gledhill]

Only when rolling with people who have no clinch skills or the ability to prevent it.

:cool:

So you see chi sao as a 'pressure exchange' of two equally extended arms?

[Wayfaring]

So you see chi sao as a 'pressure exchange' of two equally extended arms?

No I see chi sau as a discussion topic that kevin can use to put words in people's mouths. ;)

[k gledhill]

No I see chi sau as a discussion topic that kevin can use to put words in people's mouths. ;)

Well you reference wrestling clips as we discuss chi-sao ...? YKW also references wrestling with chi-sao.?
Its pretty clear you also see chi-sao as a place to roll with pressure in arms and do , whatever comes. Help me out here.

[Wayfaring]

Well you reference wrestling clips as we discuss chi-sao ...? YKW also references wrestling with chi-sao.?
Its pretty clear you also see chi-sao as a place to roll with pressure in arms and do , whatever comes. Help me out here.

I have not the slightest clue what you are yammering on about regarding "rolling with pressure in arms". I don't know what you mean there.

All I said was if some poor turnip leaves me an opening I'm likely to dump them on their toucan. And likely without thinking about it at all. It's a lot easier for me to win an exchange if I have mount.

[k gledhill]

I have not the slightest clue what you are yammering on about regarding "rolling with pressure in arms". I don't know what you mean there.

All I said was if some poor turnip leaves me an opening I'm likely to dump them on their toucan. And likely without thinking about it at all. It's a lot easier for me to win an exchange if I have mount.

You do chi-sao , yes ?

[Wayfaring]

You do chi-sao , yes ?

Sure. I do chi-sao.

[k gledhill]

Sure. I do chi-sao.

And you make it a pressure exchange of arms equalizing pressure and do wrestling moves from it ?

[Wayfaring]

And you make it a pressure exchange of arms equalizing pressure and do wrestling moves from it ?

I don't understand what you mean by "a pressure exchange of arms equalizing pressure".

[k gledhill]

I don't understand what you mean by "a pressure exchange of arms equalizing pressure".

rolling arm pressure >=< rolling arm pressure

[guy b.]

Well you reference wrestling clips as we discuss chi-sao ...? YKW also references wrestling with chi-sao.?
Its pretty clear you also see chi-sao as a place to roll with pressure in arms and do , whatever comes. Help me out here.

Kevin, I think he means that chi sau is a drill for learning how to get your hand on another person without them getting their hand on you. I guess he is saying that what you do with the hand and the energy to get it there is up to you (i.e. you could make it a strike, or a grab). Just my interpretation of what he said. I don't think he is claiming that chi sau is a way to wrestle because it would be the worst way to wrestle in the world

[Robinhood]

IMO, WC Chi-Sao, Taiji push hand, I Liq Chuan bridging, SC grip fight, ... are just the starting point. The goal can be "infinitive".

I have suggested Taiji guys to integrate head lock, over hook, under hook, bear hug, ... into their Taiji push hand training.

For example, starting from chi-sao, whoever can get a head lock (or over hook, under hook, ...) on the other person, he wins that round. The chi-sao game then start all over again. It's fun and safe game and I strongly suggest it.

If you were correct in chi-Sao sensitivity , the guy would never reach the wrestling move.

You are probably still using force against force in your rolling.



Cheers

[JPinAZ]

Ironically Chi sao has a lot of redundancy to actual use fighting. Only an uninformed student would pursue the drill as you described.

Only an uniformed person would think that I was implying someone should persue chi sau only as I described. Or someone is trying to twist words and play games to prove some unmentioned point.. :rolleyes: Why do so many WCK people try and make thing soooo complicated, when the whole idea of the art is to be simple, direct and efficient??

So, are you saying that most WCK chi sau of the Taan/bong/fook variety we see today doesn't typically start in a squared up postition with 2 hands equal reach at wrist contact rolling with taan bong and fook shapes? (which is what I got from what John was talking about in regards to 'where it starts').

Are you saying that you can't go from there to a scenario where one of the 2 practitioners is playing as a wrestler trying to get in and get an undertook? Doesn't this have 'redundancy to actual use fighting'? (whatever that is supposed to mean).

[k gledhill]

Only an uniformed person would think that I was implying someone should persue chi sau only as I described. Or someone is trying to twist words and play games to prove some unmentioned point.. :rolleyes: Why do so many WCK people try and make thing soooo complicated, when the whole idea of the art is to be simple, direct and efficient??

So, are you saying that most WCK chi sau of the Taan/bong/fook variety we see today doesn't typically start in a squared up postition with 2 hands equal reach at wrist contact rolling with taan bong and fook shapes? (which is what I got from what John was talking about in regards to 'where it starts').

Are you saying that you can't go from there to a scenario where one of the 2 practitioners is playing as a wrestler trying to get in and get an undertook? Doesn't this have 'redundancy to actual use fighting'? (whatever that is supposed to mean).

Your answer is revealing, thanks. As for Johns 'games', have fun.....

[JPinAZ]

Your answer is revealing, thanks. As for Johns 'games', have fun.....

wow, so insiteful... great trolling!

[guy b.]

Your answer is revealing, thanks. As for Johns 'games', have fun.....

Seriously, don't do this. Say what you think. I have a lot of respect for your opinion. Why not just state it?

[Wayfaring]

rolling arm pressure >=< rolling arm pressure

I can't think of more of a waste of time than starting in a 2 arm chi sau position, leaning into each other, and starting to try to work wrestling moves. Even grip fighting in pure submission wrestling is more fluid than that.

[YouKnowWho]

leaning into each other, ...

Agree!

You move in, I move back, You try to touch me (build bridge), I won't let you. I try to touch you (build bridge), you won't let me. If we train like this, it will be much more realistic.

We can see a lot of "similiarity" between:

WC sticky hand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-232DNU8_TI

and Chinese wrestling grip fight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tm1Lmv3SctM

[Vajramusti]

We can see a lot of "similiarity" between:

WC sticky hand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-232DNU8_TI

and Chinese wrestling grip fight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tm1Lmv3SctM

-----------------------------------------------------
Two quite different things. Of course both clips involve two persons in each and two sets of hands.!!!

[anerlich]

Hendrik: the above is an "ignore physical reality" talk.

A description of many posts on the forum, especially your own.

[Frost]

so how about Kevin, or Joy or Guy b or anyone else on this thread for that matter actually telling us what they think chi sau is for in a couple of sentances, so we can all have a frame of reference for this fun discussion :)

[wingchunIan]

so how about Kevin, or Joy or Guy b or anyone else on this thread for that matter actually telling us what they think chi sau is for in a couple of sentances, so we can all have a frame of reference for this fun discussion :)

I've come late to this party but some of the posts above do show a glaring lack of appreciation for what chis sao is/isn't. If someone wants to try to wrestle during chi sao they should go for it, it won't improve their wing chun but it will help their partner. Ultimately chi sao is a learning exercise not a competition so talk of winning rounds is a little misplaced. Chi sao is simple and beautiful because of it, it is simply a way of learning to detect movement, changes in pressure / force, changes in angle etc created by the movement of either party and to exploit them to find openings through which to strike and/or destroy the balance and posture of the other participant, whilst simultaneously learning to avoid giving openings that can be exploited. It is random and unpredictable (exercises and drills used to teach and develop chi sau are not truly chi sau ). The poon sau start point is only a neutral start point that introduces a baseline of movement (that makes any change harder to detect than if the start was stationary) and allows the participants to train basic structures. It is a convention that allows universal interaction but you could start it from any position you like, even or uneven (on tables, chairs, benches, in corners, against walls, I sometimes even do chi sau with my back to the floor and a partner in the mount position). You can add in handicaps to one or other participants (only use one hand, blindfold, only one type of energy etc) to even the playing field. It is all still chi sau as long as it retains the original purpose.

only my 2 cents but you asked.......:p

[k gledhill]

so how about Kevin, or Joy or Guy b or anyone else on this thread for that matter actually telling us what they think chi sau is for in a couple of sentances, so we can all have a frame of reference for this fun discussion :)

Try using your telepathic ability to read my answer :)

[Frost]

Try using your telepathic ability to read my answer :)

serously what is your problem?
People on this thread seem to be talking in circles around each other, Ian was kind enough to put up what he feels chi sau is, you obviously disagree with what others here think it is for so instead of the mystical bull and all knowing smiles be secure enough to simply say what you think

[Vajramusti]

so how about Kevin, or Joy or Guy b or anyone else on this thread for that matter actually telling us what they think chi sau is for in a couple of sentances, so we can all have a frame of reference for this fun discussion :)
______

Hard to give a perceptive view of chi sao in a couple of sentences. Ian has given a sense of some common ground. I don't want to divert Alan's thread.

[guy b.]

so how about Kevin, or Joy or Guy b or anyone else on this thread for that matter actually telling us what they think chi sau is for in a couple of sentances, so we can all have a frame of reference for this fun discussion :)

I think it is a drill to develop, reinforce and correct errors in lines of attack using the hands mostly, according to wing chun theory. Maybe other people think it is something else? I don't know.

[sanjuro_ronin]

It's a sensitivity drill for a system that relies on the arms to "bridge".
Sheesh !!!!

[guy b.]

It's a sensitivity drill for a system that relies on the arms to "bridge".
Sheesh !!!!

I don't think the system relies on the arms to bridge. It relies instead on using certain lines of attack

[sanjuro_ronin]

I don't think the system relies on the arms to bridge. It relies instead on using certain lines of attack

great, but we are not talking about the system, but part of it.
That WC uses arms to bridge or to fight while bridge is obvious ( whether it relies on them is not the point) and that chi sao develops sensitivity to do that is why it is done.
Its a drill, no more, no less.

[guy b.]

great, but we are not talking about the system, but part of it.
That WC uses arms to bridge or to fight while bridge is obvious ( whether it relies on them is not the point) and that chi sao develops sensitivity to do that is why it is done.
Its a drill, no more, no less.

Your previous post just talked entirely about the system and I responded, ergo we are talking about the system

[guy b.]

great, but we are not talking about the system, but part of it.
That WC uses arms to bridge or to fight while bridge is obvious ( whether it relies on them is not the point) and that chi sao develops sensitivity to do that is why it is done.
Its a drill, no more, no less.

I don't agree that chi sau is a sensitivity drill for learning sensitivity to fight arm bridged

[sanjuro_ronin]

I don't agree that chi sau is a sensitivity drill for learning sensitivity to fight arm bridged

That's cool.
Then what is it?

[Robinhood]

Chi-Sao is a tool that can be used to develop many things, depending on how it is done. Most only use it for basic development of position.



Cheers

[JPinAZ]

It's a sensitivity drill for a system that relies on the arms to "bridge".
Sheesh !!!!

IMO, this is just the basic definition for only the taan/bong/fook rolling platform drill/game or 'sensitivity drill' of chi sau. But this definition does not encompass ALL of what chi sau, which is a lot more than just this drill. Yes, it is part of it, but just a small part.

Chi Sua is an umbrella technology that covers all WCK bridging with the hands/arms. It covers everything from single arm and double engagments, to bridge manipulation/destruction, to arm leverage control and gate coverage, etc whenever a bridge is connected. Contact points can be wrist, striking points, forearms etc.

[WC1277]

Chi sau is first and foremost a drill. It is for developing your WC structure. It is meant for refinement of redirecting, jamming, and timing of incoming force. It is NOT an arm game but a body game reinforcing the elbow. Your hands should almost always be along the centerline. Your blocking hand never moves past your own center but your body turns it and your attack hand always aims towards the opponents center. If you're redirecting, neutralizing, or equalizing incoming force correctly, you will almost always be in a bent arm position with the hands working together, not separately. If your arms aren't bent then you're either too far away or too close and jammed up. It is based off of both triangles and circles and should be practiced as if your arms were a balloon and your body was a trampoline layed vertical that the balloon was up against which is why the elbows are so important for stabilization. All you have to do is play with a big balloon to realize how it can affect your center of gravity when you try to put force on it. It will absorb you and spin you making you fight to regain. That is what chi sao is really for, to develop those attributes and of course, much, much more....

[guy b.]

That's cool.
Then what is it?

Here is what I already said:


I think it is a drill to develop, reinforce and correct errors in lines of attack

[YouKnowWho]

I believe WC Chi Shou should also include, I try to touch your arm, you won't let me. You try to touch my arm, I won't let you. It will be a nice "intermediate step" before moving into free sparring.