Wing Chun "Kill Zone" and Joe Louis

[GlennR]

Hi All
Im a mad boxing fan (im sure a lot of you know) and a particular fan of the old style fighters 1900 through to mid 60's, and ive just read a great article about Joe Louis.

I see JL as probably the closest example of boxing comparable to WC
- Very economic footwork
- Renown straight puncher
- A stalker looking to capitilise his opponents mistakes

These are just a few things i see as similar amongst others

In this article

http://www.boxing.com/how_to_box_by_joe_louis_part_3the_right_hand.html

the Author makes a point "Louis has to bring his opponent into a very specific kill-zone to activate the trigger for that punch."
He sees it as both a strength and weakness and highlights that movement (from his opponent) made things hard for him and he did somewhat struggle to adapt to that.

Gee it reminded me of WC

Anyway, i recommend reading all 3 articles (there is a 4th on its way) and id love to hear peoples thoughts about it

GlennR

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well, first off, and to be a bit of sticklier, the right cross and overhand right are NOT the same punch, though they CAN be.
The overhand tends to have the elbow a bit higher and may "loop" a bit more as opposed to the cross that SHOULD come in straight with the elbow "down".
Of course in practice it's hard to distinguish one from the other.
Louis was a boxer, not a WC man, so we should ask ourselves why we need to use a fighter from a different MA to show WC.
I am guilt of this too though, I like to use Tyson as an example of what Hung Kuen would look like in the ring.
I shouldn't because Tyson doesn't do HK anymore than Louis does WC.
THAT said though, you are quite correct that Louis does indeed use some of the principles of WC.
Why?
Because the human body only works the way it works when doing a specific task.

Louis has many things similar to WC because he is fighting HOW one fights WHEN applying those principles, principles that are NOT exclusive to WC.

[GlennR]

Well, first off, and to be a bit of sticklier, the right cross and overhand right are NOT the same punch, though they CAN be.

That caught me too, but their description of straight right seems to be the cross, an the cross is the overhand. Confusing but just slightly different terminology


The overhand tends to have the elbow a bit higher and may "loop" a bit more as opposed to the cross that SHOULD come in straight with the elbow "down".
Of course in practice it's hard to distinguish one from the other.

Yep, agree on your description but i think the two look fairly different once you know what you are looking for


Louis was a boxer, not a WC man, so we should ask ourselves why we need to use a fighter from a different MA to show WC.

I wasnt. Im a boxer AND a WC guy. I see his approach to boxing somewhat similar to my take on WC. I was asking opinions on this and not making out that "Louis was WC"


I am guilt of this too though, I like to use Tyson as an example of what Hung Kuen would look like in the ring.

Im innocent your honour!


I shouldn't because Tyson doesn't do HK anymore than Louis does WC.

Der ;)


THAT said though, you are quite correct that Louis does indeed use some of the principles of WC.
Why?
Because the human body only works the way it works when doing a specific task.


Id disagree. Louis had a very definite approach to boxing and he came up with an approach from his own doing. Sure, he had a body so to say but then so did Tyson. Why dont they box the same?


Louis has many things similar to WC because he is fighting HOW one fights WHEN applying those principles, principles that are NOT exclusive to WC.


Yep, spot on and i can work out the principles he uses by watching him boxing.

Incidentally, read part 2 which talks about his left hook, he basically does it against the classics..... its great reading and ive loved playing around with it in the gym

[sanjuro_ronin]

Id disagree. Louis had a very definite approach to boxing and he came up with an approach from his own doing. Sure, he had a body so to say but then so did Tyson. Why dont they box the same?

Different styles of boxing AND body types.
Much like why Hung Kuen and Wing Chun are so different YET are both TCMA.
Tyson was stockier, had short arms, was more of a hook, uppercut, kind of guy and his "peek-a-boo" defense would NOT lend itself to Louis' style.

[Vajramusti]

Different styles of boxing AND body types.
Much like why Hung Kuen and Wing Chun are so different YET are both TCMA.
Tyson was stockier, had short arms, was more of a hook, uppercut, kind of guy and his "peek-a-boo" defense would NOT lend itself to Louis' style.
-----------------------------------------------------
Have not had a chance to read the article(s)-but will later today. Have to take care of some appointments at first.
Pacquiao's overhead left as a south paw is different from his left cross. But both effective-but probably wont work against Mayweather if the latter keeps his conditioning in jail.Ditto distinction of overhead and cross for right handers.

Boxing and wing chun are different from each other because of differences in stances even taking individual differences into account. Both Louis and Tyson had short power. Ofcourse some moves
will have their counterparts in boxing and wing chun because a function has to be performed and thus there can be a boxing hook and a wing chun hook with differences in mechanics.

Tyson threw it all away- forgot Amato's lessons when he ditched Amato's protege as his trainer
among other problems. But his more squared body- double handedness- his original peekaboo geometry and dynamics paralled some wing chun principles. Louis had less of that geometry- the dropping of his left hand after a jab.... made up for it by going in - for the second Schmelling fight.

On the whole wc is a more complete system than boxing, wrestling or kicking...and less likely to
lead to physical deterioration.

Gotta go.

joy chaudhuri

[sanjuro_ronin]

On the whole wc is a more complete system than boxing, wrestling or kicking...and less likely to
lead to physical deterioration.


Typically I agree, because the vast majority do those sports in their sport specififc mode.
That said, the MA of boxing and wrestling for that matter, is as complete as WC in terms of over all fighting BUT very few people do them compared to their sport versions.
However, in regards to physical deterioration, I would say that the issue is the competitive aspect of hard contact sports.
That indeed does lead to more physcial deterioration than the typical WC practioner since the typical practioner does NOT do full contact fighting as much ( if at all).
Now, take the sport of boxing, minus the competition, and it is far less demanding on the body.

[GlennR]

Different styles of boxing AND body types.
Much like why Hung Kuen and Wing Chun are so different YET are both TCMA.
Tyson was stockier, had short arms, was more of a hook, uppercut, kind of guy and his "peek-a-boo" defense would NOT lend itself to Louis' style.

True.
Maybe there's different 'styles" of WC that suit different body types as well?

Did you read all 3 articles?

[GlennR]

Have not had a chance to read the article(s)-but will later today. Have to take care of some appointments at first.

Really excellent article... id recommend all 3


Pacquiao's overhead left as a south paw is different from his left cross. But both effective-but probably wont work against Mayweather if the latter keeps his conditioning in jail.Ditto distinction of overhead and cross for right handers.

Not sure if we will ever see those two fight.


Boxing and wing chun are different from each other because of differences in stances even taking individual differences into account. Both Louis and Tyson had short power.

Yes they did but having watched/read a lot about both they had a slightly different "engine" IMO


Ofcourse some moves
will have their counterparts in boxing and wing chun because a function has to be performed and thus there can be a boxing hook and a wing chun hook with differences in mechanics.

Theres even difference between mechanics within boxing.
The second article gives a great insight into his left hook

http://www.boxing.com/how_to_box_by_joe_louis_part_2the_jab_left_hook.ht ml

Its the opposite of someone like Joe Frazier yet nobody could chakllenge its effectiveness.... and particularly how short he could deliver it.


Its the opposite of someone like Joe Frazier yet nobody could chakllenge its effectiveness.... and particularly how short he could deliver it.
Tyson threw it all away- forgot Amato's lessons when he ditched Amato's protege as his trainer
among other problems. But his more squared body- double handedness- his original peekaboo geometry and dynamics paralled some wing chun principles. Louis had less of that geometry- the dropping of his left hand after a jab.... made up for it by going in - for the second Schmelling fight.


Less geometry maybe but mote upright and much more subtle in what he did compared to Tyson.
On second thought is how subtle he is in technique and footwork that reminds me of WC


On the whole wc is a more complete system than boxing, wrestling or kicking...and less likely to
lead to physical deterioration.

Personally, i dont buy the complete system thing but id be interested in why you think it leads to physical deterioration

[GlennR]

Typically I agree, because the vast majority do those sports in their sport specififc mode.
That said, the MA of boxing and wrestling for that matter, is as complete as WC in terms of over all fighting BUT very few people do them compared to their sport versions.

Its very complete. Quite simply there is no better striking (hand) system. The proof is in the pudding


However, in regards to physical deterioration, I would say that the issue is the competitive aspect of hard contact sports.
That indeed does lead to more physcial deterioration than the typical WC practioner since the typical practioner does NOT do full contact fighting as much ( if at all).
Now, take the sport of boxing, minus the competition, and it is far less demanding on the body.

True but even when you dont fight injuries are hard to avoid in boxing. Its just hard on the body. Im nursing a sprained wrist and achilles tendonitis which i wouldnt have got doing WC

[Wayfaring]

These articles and video clips are awesome. Thx for posting them. Anyone interested in the anatomy of a boxing punch or how to develop punching power can learn a lot from Louis example.

[GlennR]

These articles and video clips are awesome. Thx for posting them. Anyone interested in the anatomy of a boxing punch or how to develop punching power can learn a lot from Louis example.

My pleasure. The site in general is excellent and i thought the JL series was terrific. Im looking forward to part 4.

Its funny, as a young guy i was taken by Ali-Tyson... hard not to be. But as ive gotten older im in awe of Louis, he was so refined and measured in what he did.

Heres another fighter im a huge fan of, Charles Burley. Excellent video of "old School" boxing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81non05aKX4

[Vajramusti]

Thanks Glenn for those great articles and shots of Louis in his prime