How do you know?

[sanjuro_ronin]

We tend to speak a lot about things we "know".
As MA we REALLY tend to speak ( and write) A LOT about things we "KNOW".
But do we know or do we think we know?
The only way to find out the difference is to evaluate WHY we THINK we KNOW something.
So, how do we know our teacher is a good fighter?
How do we know that someone know how to fight?
How do we know that someone can handle themselves in a real fight?
How do we know if WE have been in a real fight?
How do we know WHAT is a real fight?
I can go on...

I remember being asked how do I know my old TKD teacher knew his stuff and I replied:
He knows all his forms and sparring sets and he does them very well ( having compared him with OTHER TKD teachers).
He knows how to use TKD in the ring AND the street.
How did I know that?
Not only have I sparred him full contact ( the ONLY way to measure a persons fighting skill) but I have seen him fight full contact VS other MA AND seen him work security and use his TKD in real life.
Can I say that about ALL my MA teachers?
NO.
I never saw any of my boxing coaches fight, so I can't comment on their fighting ability.
I have seen them coach and have been coached by them so on THAT I can comment.
I have never seen my Hung Kuen Sifu fight, I have NO idea if he CAN fight but I do KNOW that he is an excellent teacher AND can express Hung Kuen in a hands on way.
I have seen my SPM sifu sparr and I have sparred him BUT I have never seen him fight on "the street", So I can comment on his ability in sparring and his expression of SPM, BUT I can't comment on his "street fighting".

My point?
How many times do we ASSUME something about someone else with no real DIRECT evidence of such? and why do we do that?

[Robinhood]

There are three kinds of people.

Those that don't know they don't know.

Those that know they don't know.

Those that know they know.


Cheers

[sanjuro_ronin]

There are three kinds of people.

Those that don't know they don't know.

Those that know they don't know.

Those that know they know.


Cheers

And HOW do they KNOW?

[Lucas]

Unfortunately some of the people that are the 'dont know they dont know' can also be people that 'think they know'. They are the ones to watch out for.

[David Jamieson]

My point?
How many times do we ASSUME something about someone else with no real DIRECT evidence of such? and why do we do that?

I'm going to go with... All throughout History, this is the posited stance for the most part.

The whole fighting thing is only relevant in the here and now and it is based on relativity.

Is your teacher or mine the best fighter? No. And he never has been, ever. Is he a better fighter than you? He certainly was when you started, but as he gets older, you could actually just pick your day...lol

Most of the stuff we tend to hang upon ourselves as ego bauble is nonsense. We quote it because we want to be seen as connected to other people's perceived greatness and therefore enhancing our own social status.

None of this is relevant to everyday living, fetching wood and carrying water. It is important to break free of this chaotic and immature thinking. As long as anyone holds to it, they impede their own growth as a human being and within the very context of being able to make a contribution to humanity on the whole.

We will often ascribe conditions to something or someone that do not exist and we do it satisfy our own sense of personal power. We do this to teh detriment of our own personal integrity. Hopefully, we each get to a point where we realize this simple truth and put the nonsense behind us and train to keep ourselves, active, fit and somewhat prepared for what life will throw at us.

if you are training towards someone else's perception, you are hard on the road to failure already! :)

[Lucas]

Come to think of it. Some that 'know they know' actually just think they do but really dont know they dont know..these are the worst kind

[Frost]

We tend to speak a lot about things we "know".
As MA we REALLY tend to speak ( and write) A LOT about things we "KNOW".
But do we know or do we think we know?
The only way to find out the difference is to evaluate WHY we THINK we KNOW something.
So, how do we know our teacher is a good fighter?
How do we know that someone know how to fight?
How do we know that someone can handle themselves in a real fight?
How do we know if WE have been in a real fight?
How do we know WHAT is a real fight?
I can go on...

I remember being asked how do I know my old TKD teacher knew his stuff and I replied:
He knows all his forms and sparring sets and he does them very well ( having compared him with OTHER TKD teachers).
He knows how to use TKD in the ring AND the street.
How did I know that?
Not only have I sparred him full contact ( the ONLY way to measure a persons fighting skill) but I have seen him fight full contact VS other MA AND seen him work security and use his TKD in real life.
Can I say that about ALL my MA teachers?
NO.
I never saw any of my boxing coaches fight, so I can't comment on their fighting ability.
I have seen them coach and have been coached by them so on THAT I can comment.
I have never seen my Hung Kuen Sifu fight, I have NO idea if he CAN fight but I do KNOW that he is an excellent teacher AND can express Hung Kuen in a hands on way.
I have seen my SPM sifu sparr and I have sparred him BUT I have never seen him fight on "the street", So I can comment on his ability in sparring and his expression of SPM, BUT I can't comment on his "street fighting".

My point?
How many times do we ASSUME something about someone else with no real DIRECT evidence of such? and why do we do that?

Current coaches
I know my main MMA coach can grapple, have seen him win comps and roll with international level guys
I know he can spar to as I’ve seen him with our competition lads (some of whom are in the UFC)
I know he can fight as I’ve seen him handle challenge matches too

Confession time
I know my other MMA coach can fight stand up very well, seen him working the doors and sparring with our guys all of whom have fought kick boxing in the past and done well, to be honest I am not sure about the grappling and MMA he teaches as none of the guys under him have fought MMA or done grappling comps, and his stuff in too low percentage for me….I go to the gym because its local cheap and good stand up and has a squat cage and because I can judge his stuff and leave what I don’t like

I know my current TCMA coach can spar, still have a bloody nose from sparing him yesterday and a sore neck lol

I know he can grapple as I know the judo and wrestling clubs he trains at, can he fight, I think so have heard stories of his fights and his background, but I don’t know this and I don’t care, I know he can teach me things I want to learn and that’s enough for me

Past teachers
My first teachers, was a full contact European kick boxing champ who taught Korean arts, I knew he could fight, my first kick boxing coach was also I British title holder, my first main TCMA coach to be honest wasn’t a fighter and that’s why I finally left him

What we think we know, is subjective and based on our own experience and our own level, I think my MMA coach is a good grappler, but he still gets schooled by the likes of braulo, but for where I’m at he is good enough

[MightyB]

TCMA Sifu is good at TCMA - Just my personal observation from watching him and watching many others... plus in seeing how other Sifu react to him.

MMA coach has coached many a winner in the ring in regional events.

Judo coach has won the world masters in his weight class.

But all of them would say they are only "so-so" ;)

[Robinhood]

And HOW do they KNOW?

Experience

[sanjuro_ronin]

Experience

Experience with what?

[Robinhood]

Experience with what?

What else, experience with the subject at hand. Most people learn a little and fall into first category, then progress to second category, then maybe later reach third category.

[sanjuro_ronin]

What else, experience with the subject at hand. Most people learn a little and fall into first category, then progress to second category, then maybe later reach third category.

Here's the thing though, WHAT experience?
Some people take their Sifu's demo of techniques on them and other students, without them or the other students fighting back or even attempting to actual hit the teacher, as a sign of the teacher being able to fight.
Some people think they Sifu is a fighter and have NEVER seen them actually fight.
Yet, they have lots of "experience" in seeing their sifu in "action".

[Golden Arms]

Meditate and observe.

[Robinhood]

Here's the thing though, WHAT experience?
Some people take their Sifu's demo of techniques on them and other students, without them or the other students fighting back or even attempting to actual hit the teacher, as a sign of the teacher being able to fight.
Some people think they Sifu is a fighter and have NEVER seen them actually fight.
Yet, they have lots of "experience" in seeing their sifu in "action".

That's not experience, you need to try it out on resisting opponents yourself, that's experience, watching someone else do things might help you to go get your own experience.

You could be the resisting opponent against your teacher, that will qualify as experience .
Having abilities that work, and being able to use them in a fight, is more of a characteristic of the persons disposition, learning to be efficient is priority, does not mean you are a fighter.


Cheers

Cheers

[David Jamieson]

Meditate and observe.

Audi, Vide, Tace. :)

[Hebrew Hammer]

Well, I think you're asking the wrong question...just because your sifu can fight doesn't mean you can or that he can teach you to fight. Meaning it doesn't make him a great instructor. That's a major misconception about martial arts in my mind, many people flock to great martial artists, to imitate them and very few can. They are people to be admired and respected. There are probably some great instructors out there who have either not competed nor are great fighters themselves.

There is a saying that those who can not do, teach. There is some evidence of this in MMA where some of the best instructors Greg Jackson, Dean Lister, Pat Miletich, who are premier instructors but had less than good MMA careers.

Martial Arts like religion is a paternalistic endeavor, were ego, recognition, and often power are intertwined with faith. My style is the best, my faith is the true faith, I'm holier or better than thou because of whatever. Everyone is quick to judge and fewer are quick to listen and learn. You can probably learn something from every style or instructor, sometimes those lessons are what not to do. Usually the more wonderful an instructor tells you they are, the more bull**** he's selling you.

Those that know, do not say...those that say they do, do not know. Learning is a life long endeavor.

There are too few with open minds.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well, I think you're asking the wrong question...just because your sifu can fight doesn't mean you can or that he can teach you to fight. Meaning it doesn't make him a great instructor. That's a major misconception about martial arts in my mind, many people flock to great martial artists, to imitate them and very few can. They are people to be admired and respected. There are probably some great instructors out there who have either not competed nor are great fighters themselves.

There is a saying that those who can not do, teach. There is some evidence of this in MMA where some of the best instructors Greg Jackson, Dean Lister, Pat Miletich, who are premier instructors but had less than good MMA careers.

Martial Arts like religion is a paternalistic endeavor, were ego, recognition, and often power are intertwined with faith. My style is the best, my faith is the true faith, I'm holier or better than thou because of whatever. Everyone is quick to judge and fewer are quick to listen and learn. You can probably learn something from every style or instructor, sometimes those lessons are what not to do. Usually the more wonderful an instructor tells you they are, the more bull**** he's selling you.

Those that know, do not say...those that say they do, do not know. Learning is a life long endeavor.

There are too few with open minds.

My question is simply, HOW do YOU know?
Has nothing to do with fighting skill of anyone, unless you ARE commenting on that.
An example from your post:
That's a major misconception about martial arts in my mind, many people flock to great martial artists, to imitate them and very few can. They are people to be admired and respected. There are probably some great instructors out there who have either not competed nor are great fighters themselves.

to which you answer:
There is some evidence of this in MMA where some of the best instructors Greg Jackson, Dean Lister, Pat Miletich, who are premier instructors but had less than good MMA careers.

And that is perfectly valid of course and HOW do you k now that they are PREMIER instructors? probably because they produce great fighters and how do you know that?
Probably because they compete and win.
and that's great.

But HOW would you know that about them IF they did NO produce great fighters?

[Lucas]

But HOW would you know that about them IF they did NO produce great fighters?

the only way i see would be to train under them, compete, and see how their influence has improved YOUR abilities.

[Hebrew Hammer]

Well you would KNOW in the quality of your training, as someone else here stated based on experience. If you have no experience any training is probably better than what you had. Only through continued training will you know.

Do you think only the good instructors produce fighters who compete? This maybe a valid gauge, but it is not the only one. There some things that you may never know in martial training, you may never have to use it. What you need to KNOW is do you respect your instructor, do you receive intrinsic value in your training? For me is my school or facility something that I learn from, am challenged by, is it fun, is it a workout? Am I improving my health at some level. I'm quite ok with not KNOWing...its about the experience. I don't have that level of insecurity.

If we're honest with ourselves...we must ask ourselves why we want to go down the martial path? For many its based on fear or fanstasy. We dream of being warriors or have been victims of violence and don't ever want to be powerless again.
Still others want to do competitions, achieve goals and recognition. If you are satisfying those needs in your training, you will KNOW if you're instructor is good.

[sanjuro_ronin]

the only way i see would be to train under them, compete, and see how their influence has improved YOUR abilities.

That is the direct method, of course and the best one when possible.
But that isn't always possible right?
The reality is that it is all about evidence ( which may lead to proof).
See, when I see a clip of some Thai boxers doing clinch work, it gives me no sense of their fighting ability ( well. it might but not much).
When I see a taiji practioner doing a form, no matter how well, it gives me no sense of their fighting ability.
Why? because neither is evidence of fighting skill.
When I see someone coaching/teaching, I can get a sense of how WELL he teaches by how he speaks, how he passes on the lesson, how easy it is for me to "get it", BUT the only way to know how good a teacher he is ( as opposed to how well he teaches) is by how well his students can demonstrate what he teaches, right?
Of course good teachers tend to teach well and those that t each well tend to be good teachers but the point is the evidence we have for that, in this case, the students.

So, when someone says that So and so knows his *insert TCMA style here*, what does that mean?
When someone says that so and so can fight, what does that mean?
That they have SEEN them fight ( by fight I mean fight someone trying to punch their head of) or did they do some compliant demo to give the impression that they can "take care of themselves"?

[Lucas]

so then in regards to direct fighting ability and good teaching ability, how much of good fighting ability do you think one should have to be able to produce competent fighters?

by that i mean, you may be a great teacher, but to teach someone to fight, you must have SOME decent fighting ability in conjunction with great teaching ability.

i believe that no matter how great of a teacher you are, if you have little to no ability to fight yourself, you will be severely limited in terms of how great of a fighter you can produce.

(phsyical limitations aside. you dont need to be physically capable to fight, but you must be mentally capable of doing so were you physically capable.)

there is a 'minimum and maximump cap range' i think, where you dont have to be a great fighter, but some fighting knowledge is required.

[sanjuro_ronin]

so then in regards to direct fighting ability and good teaching ability, how much of good fighting ability do you think one should have to be able to produce competent fighters?

by that i mean, you may be a great teacher, but to teach someone to fight, you must have SOME decent fighting ability in conjunction with great teaching ability.

i believe that no matter how great of a teacher you are, if you have little to no ability to fight yourself, you will be severely limited in terms of how great of a fighter you can produce.

(phsyical limitations aside. you dont need to be physically capable to fight, but you must be mentally capable of doing so were you physically capable.)

there is a 'minimum and maximump cap range' i think, where you dont have to be a great fighter, but some fighting knowledge is required.

I don't think you can ever teach someone to fight in a competent way without ever having fought yourself (degree of success being far less important than what one gets out of the experience).

My point though is that when I say someone is a great fighter or knows how to fight with his MA, what does THAT truly mean?
Have I seen him fight for real or just assume that because he does a nice form and has big muscles?
How do YOU know what I mean when I say, " Sifu "A" has the goods".

[sanjuro_ronin]

If I came here and say that the only way you will be competent in Praying Mantis kung fu is to eat a certain diet, do qigong at a certain time of day and in a certain position and to truly understand the Mantis you must study the animal, how would you KNOW that I KNOW what I was talking about?

[Hebrew Hammer]

If I came here and say that the only way you will be competent in Praying Mantis kung fu is to eat a certain diet, do qigong at a certain time of day and in a certain position and to truly understand the Mantis you must study the animal, how would you KNOW that I KNOW what I was talking about?

Your bug eyes would be the first indicator...

[sanjuro_ronin]

Your bug eyes would be the first indicator...

That's allergies...

[Hebrew Hammer]

Enough talk of KNOWING, I'm going to DO something and take my fat ass for a run. Peace out...notify me when you KNOW.

[Lucas]

How do YOU know what I mean when I say, " Sifu "A" has the goods".

ya its completely subjective. unless i know enough about you to determine that you know what you are talking about, then i can only take what you say about 'sifu A' as simply an unverified opinion.

[sanjuro_ronin]

ya its completely subjective. unless i know enough about you to determine that you know what you are talking about, then i can only take what you say about 'sifu A' as simply an unverified opinion.

yep, but...well...you know how it works HERE, right?
When I ask someone to tell me how they KNOW if so and so can fight or ask so and so what makes them think that their view of *insert MA here* is the correct one and that only doing it this way will make it work, blah, blah, you know that never get a reply?
People seem to "just know" these things.
Which puts them MILES ahead of the actual originators of those very MA since those poor guys had to actually FIGHT and TEST their ideas to develop their MA !!

Crazy man !! Just crazy !!

[Lucas]

yep, but...well...you know how it works HERE, right?
When I ask someone to tell me how they KNOW if so and so can fight or ask so and so what makes them think that their view of *insert MA here* is the correct one and that only doing it this way will make it work, blah, blah, you know that never get a reply?
People seem to "just know" these things.
Which puts them MILES ahead of the actual originators of those very MA since those poor guys had to actually FIGHT and TEST their ideas to develop their MA !!

Crazy man !! Just crazy !!

seriously...dont get me started. many of us have become masters in the art of spotting bullsh!t and not responding to said bullsh!t. there are a handful of people here who desperately want to be seen and recognized as experts. whether they do or do not deserve such recognition is besides the point. the point is many of these people fail to proove they should be regarded as such, and thus, are defaulted to the 'troll' status they truly deserve.

LUNCH TIME! something i am an expert at! take my word for it!!!

[RWilson]

We tend to speak a lot about things we "know".
As MA we REALLY tend to speak ( and write) A LOT about things we "KNOW".
But do we know or do we think we know?
The only way to find out the difference is to evaluate WHY we THINK we KNOW something.
So, how do we know our teacher is a good fighter?
How do we know that someone know how to fight?
How do we know that someone can handle themselves in a real fight?
How do we know if WE have been in a real fight?
How do we know WHAT is a real fight?
I can go on...

I remember being asked how do I know my old TKD teacher knew his stuff and I replied:
He knows all his forms and sparring sets and he does them very well ( having compared him with OTHER TKD teachers).
He knows how to use TKD in the ring AND the street.
How did I know that?
Not only have I sparred him full contact ( the ONLY way to measure a persons fighting skill) but I have seen him fight full contact VS other MA AND seen him work security and use his TKD in real life.
Can I say that about ALL my MA teachers?
NO.
I never saw any of my boxing coaches fight, so I can't comment on their fighting ability.
I have seen them coach and have been coached by them so on THAT I can comment.
I have never seen my Hung Kuen Sifu fight, I have NO idea if he CAN fight but I do KNOW that he is an excellent teacher AND can express Hung Kuen in a hands on way.
I have seen my SPM sifu sparr and I have sparred him BUT I have never seen him fight on "the street", So I can comment on his ability in sparring and his expression of SPM, BUT I can't comment on his "street fighting".

My point?
How many times do we ASSUME something about someone else with no real DIRECT evidence of such? and why do we do that?


There is no way to know for sure. Everything in tcma is based on assumption IMO.

1. Teachers that do not talk about being good fighters are definitely not. If they were they would have the confidence to outrightly say so without fear of repercussion.
2. Teachers that do talk about being good fighters might not be crappy but atleast they will have to put up or shut up right away.

3. People with real fighting skills can and will demonstrate them in a realistic way.

4. People without real skills only do fake arm holding demos. Here is a perfect example of someone that is probably considered to be a good fighter but only has his crap up. There is no evidence to support his reputation of he has one. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhCEIPaI5KY&feature=youtube_gdata_player

5. Real fighter- teaches application under pressure(sparring)
6. Fake fighter- teaches techniques from forms because of the belief that function follows form.

[Robinhood]

Ya, he is marketing , techniques, like anything else timing and position and execution will determine if anything works.

That guy is not teaching sport fighting, but you want to put him in sport fighting category, which is not right.


Cheers

[RWilson]

Ya, he is marketing , techniques, like anything else timing and position and execution will determine if anything works.

That guy is not teaching sport fighting, but you want to put him in sport fighting category, which is not right.


Cheers

Fine. Show me evidence of his non-sport real fighting skills. Does it exist? Back to sanjuro's question: how do you know he has street skills?

[Robinhood]

Fine. Show me evidence of his non-sport real fighting skills. Does it exist? Back to sanjuro's question: how do you know he has street skills?


He is showing techniques, you have to make them work. That's where experience comes in.

What does fighting have to do with whether you can be in the right place at the right time and execute technique.


Cheers

[David Jamieson]

There is no way to know for sure. Everything in tcma is based on assumption IMO.

1. Teachers that do not talk about being good fighters are definitely not. If they were they would have the confidence to outrightly say so without fear of repercussion.
2. Teachers that do talk about being good fighters might not be crappy but atleast they will have to put up or shut up right away.

3. People with real fighting skills can and will demonstrate them in a realistic way.

4. People without real skills only do fake arm holding demos. Here is a perfect example of someone that is probably considered to be a good fighter but only has his crap up. There is no evidence to support his reputation of he has one. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhCEIPaI5KY&feature=youtube_gdata_player

5. Real fighter- teaches application under pressure(sparring)
6. Fake fighter- teaches techniques from forms because of the belief that function follows form.

Regarding your first comment, I would say you should adjust your opinion of TCMA if you truly do think it is entirely assumptive.

Speaking to your other points.

1. While one would speak of their contests to their peers in an art form, one remains modest otherwise. It's a sign of good character and is apparent in many professionals.

2. Now who's being assumptive? Teachers that are willing to fight will fight, others that aren't won't. So what. Sammy the 67 year old boxing coach won't fight some random dude who walked in out of nowhere?

3. True. If they care to or see a reason to. Such as being a teacher.

4. You are just trying to be provocative. There isn't anything wrong with how that man is marketing his school offerings. That's what you do these days. But by all means, feel free to not study the art form in a different manner based on your own assumptive view again.

5. True.

6. I don't know anyone who thinks this way and could be still teaching. After all nobody says function follows form. The term is architectural and has always been "form follows function". Always.

So nice try, but your inelegant stumbling attack deserved a riposte of its own. Pun fully intended. :p

[RWilson]

He is marketing techniques that may or may not have worked for his teachers teachers teacher. They
were developed for a different time.

A "modest" man would not boast about fighting out of fear of something happening to him. Being modest is a great way to hide a lack.

[Lucas]

In all truthfulness, ive met some people that like to talk and boast a lot, but can back it up. Likewise I've met some very humble people who would surprise the best of us.

That simply comes down to a mans character. All charlitans and fakes will manipulate any aspect of a persons perception in order to further their agenda. Being boastful or modest in ones approach is not necessarily indicative of their abilities.

[RWilson]

In all truthfulness, ive met some people that like to talk and boast a lot, but can back it up. Likewise I've met some very humble people who would surprise the best of us.

That simply comes down to a mans character. All charlitans and fakes will manipulate any aspect of a persons perception in order to further their agenda. Being boastful or modest in ones approach is not necessarily indicative of their abilities.

100% agree. Nice post.

[MightyB]

If I came here and say that the only way you will be competent in Praying Mantis kung fu is to eat a certain diet, do qigong at a certain time of day and in a certain position and to truly understand the Mantis you must study the animal

Shhhhhhhhh! Quit telling all the secrets!!! :mad:

[MightyB]

the best martial artists I met really love the shiite. You see it in how much fun they're having demonstrating, teaching, sparring, and rolling. They're never afraid to mix it up, and they think having a black eye is a good excuse to drink a beer and a way to pick up chicks.

[MightyB]

100% agree. Nice post.

don't ever tell Lucas that... it only encourages him!!!

[RWilson]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXLGK6vQFKM&feature=youtube_gdata_player


Not to beat a dead horse but how do you know this guy has internal and external power when he is just showing a form that has tension exercises in it? Why not just call it tension or isometric exercises. A guy named Harry Wong wrote a book on this called Dynamic Exercises. What was the point of calling it the Iron Wire or whatever form?

Anyway, can anyone think of better ways for this gentleman to show his trained internal/external power besides showing a form?

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXLGK6vQFKM&feature=youtube_gdata_player


Not to beat a dead horse but how do you know this guy has internal and external power when he is just showing a form that has tension exercises in it? Why not just call it tension or isometric exercises. A guy named Harry Wong wrote a book on this called Dynamic Exercises. What was the point of calling it the Iron Wire or whatever form?

Anyway, can anyone think of better ways for this gentleman to show his trained internal/external power besides showing a form?

Doing a form demos how well you can do that form and how well you got down the principles of that form, nothing else.
As for the IW, well, that was a nice demo of that version ( there are a quite a few) but the IW is done in the way that a person is doing it to work on a specific thing.
It's called the iron wire form ( Tid Sid Kuen) because that is it's name from Hung Kuen.

[mickey]

Greetings,

The truth is that you never really know. Even the best martial artists are prey to surprise, overwhelm, and bullets.

mickey

[RWilson]

Greetings,

The truth is that you never really know. Even the best martial artists are prey to surprise, overwhelm, and bullets.

mickey

True story for anyone. I am just personally against false advertising of one's skillz.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Greetings,

The truth is that you never really know. Even the best martial artists are prey to surprise, overwhelm, and bullets.

mickey

All that is true but when someone tells me that "Sifu X" can handle himself, I'd like to know WHAT they base that on, know what I mean?
Was it from seeing them do "chi sao" or do a form or do some complaint drill or was it from seeing them fight full contact or fight against them full contact or what?

[RWilson]

All that is true but when someone tells me that "Sifu X" can handle himself, I'd like to know WHAT they base that on, know what I mean?
Was it from seeing them do "chi sao" or do a form or do some complaint drill or was it from seeing them fight full contact or fight against them full contact or what?

Sanjuro,
I think a lot of it comes from dogma. My mother used to say that my dad was a great handyman. And yet he never really fixed anything around the house when I was growing up. Maybe he did so when I was asleep but never when I was around. It could have been that my mother saw him fix something once or heard him talk about it.

[David Jamieson]

How does anyone know that Angelo Dundee is a great boxing coach?
How did Mohammed Ali know that?

I mean Angelo? Look at the guy! lol (no offense Mr.Dundee)

Kung fu bashing is passe. :p

[sanjuro_ronin]

How does anyone know that Angelo Dundee is a great boxing coach?
How did Mohammed Ali know that?

I mean Angelo? Look at the guy! lol (no offense Mr.Dundee)

Kung fu bashing is passe. :p

Dude, Dundee produced great fighters.
Ali knew that Dundee knew, He saw if first hand.
Emmanuel Steward as well.
Cus D'mato, etc...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angelo_Dundee

Besides, this is not kung fu bashing, this is bashing those people that say they KNOW "such and such" and yet they DO NOT know HOW they know this !

If someone came to you and said that Sifu Mark Smith is the best fighter they ever saw, wouldn't you ask them How they knew that?

[David Jamieson]

Dude, Dundee produced great fighters.
Ali knew that Dundee knew, He saw if first hand.
Emmanuel Steward as well.
Cus D'mato, etc...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angelo_Dundee

Besides, this is not kung fu bashing, this is bashing those people that say they KNOW "such and such" and yet they DO NOT know HOW they know this !

If someone came to you and said that Sifu Mark Smith is the best fighter they ever saw, wouldn't you ask them How they knew that?


Nope. I can't be bothered because saying "so and so is the best" is an immature thought form in many respects. But, it is also possibly true that the guy is THE best fighter THEY had ever seen.

That stuff doesn't really matter. Never did. Still doesn't matter now, unless there is some pleasure derived from trash talk, chest puffing and posturing about the unknown. lol :p

You can't know these hearsay things. It's hearsay without direct and undisputed evidence to put it in teh realm of undeniable fact.

Like Dundee and his ability to produce great fighters.

You wanna know if a teacher is good? Look at his students. Period.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Nope. I can't be bothered because saying "so and so is the best" is an immature thought form in many respects. But, it is also possibly true that the guy is THE best fighter THEY had ever seen.

That stuff doesn't really matter. Never did. Still doesn't matter now, unless there is some pleasure derived from trash talk, chest puffing and posturing about the unknown. lol :p

You can't know these hearsay things. It's hearsay without direct and undisputed evidence to put it in teh realm of undeniable fact.

Like Dundee and his ability to produce great fighters.

You wanna know if a teacher is good? Look at his students. Period.

And this is just it:

You can't know these hearsay things. It's hearsay without direct and undisputed evidence to put it in the realm of undeniable fact.

[ginosifu]

We tend to speak a lot about things we "know".
As MA we REALLY tend to speak ( and write) A LOT about things we "KNOW".
But do we know or do we think we know?
The only way to find out the difference is to evaluate WHY we THINK we KNOW something.
So, how do we know our teacher is a good fighter?
How do we know that someone know how to fight?
How do we know that someone can handle themselves in a real fight?
How do we know if WE have been in a real fight?
How do we know WHAT is a real fight?
I can go on...

I remember being asked how do I know my old TKD teacher knew his stuff and I replied:
He knows all his forms and sparring sets and he does them very well ( having compared him with OTHER TKD teachers).
He knows how to use TKD in the ring AND the street.
How did I know that?
Not only have I sparred him full contact ( the ONLY way to measure a persons fighting skill) but I have seen him fight full contact VS other MA AND seen him work security and use his TKD in real life.
Can I say that about ALL my MA teachers?
NO.
I never saw any of my boxing coaches fight, so I can't comment on their fighting ability.
I have seen them coach and have been coached by them so on THAT I can comment.
I have never seen my Hung Kuen Sifu fight, I have NO idea if he CAN fight but I do KNOW that he is an excellent teacher AND can express Hung Kuen in a hands on way.
I have seen my SPM sifu sparr and I have sparred him BUT I have never seen him fight on "the street", So I can comment on his ability in sparring and his expression of SPM, BUT I can't comment on his "street fighting".

How do you know?

You never know nothing until you experience it yourself first hand. Even then, just because you experience it does not mean it is better or worse then something else you have not experienced yet. Let me explain.

You train with your teacher, you fight with your teacher, you think he is great? What happens when you go outside you school and fight someone else who is better than your teacher? Does your teacher suck now? How do you know? The only way to tell is with real life experiences. Fight with the MMA guy down the street, fight with the karate teacher a couple miles down the road, fight in a bar room brawl etc.

You can never know anything until you experience it first hand. In any MA, to experience your skill by fighting, sparring, grappling with as many people as you can is the only true way to "KNOW".

ginosifu

[Robinhood]

How do you know?

You never know nothing until you experience it yourself first hand. Even then, just because you experience it does not mean it is better or worse then something else you have not experienced yet. Let me explain.

You train with your teacher, you fight with your teacher, you think he is great? What happens when you go outside you school and fight someone else who is better than your teacher? Does your teacher suck now? How do you know? The only way to tell is with real life experiences. Fight with the MMA guy down the street, fight with the karate teacher a couple miles down the road, fight in a bar room brawl etc.

You can never know anything until you experience it first hand. In any MA, to experience your skill by fighting, sparring, grappling with as many people as you can is the only true way to "KNOW".

ginosifu

Good one, I think I posted something like that in the beginning of the thread.


Cheers

[xinyidizi]

The best way is to see them in a real fight and the definition of a real fight in many TCMA is killing the opponents in the shortest time possible but since nowadays such things can't happen easily I think it would be more logical to rely on other ways. Before I found my Shifu I had already some experience in martial arts so I had an idea about what a good kungfu would look like. Then I asked around and went to see some of the well known instructors and after seeing a few of them doing the moves and learning about their background and lineage I had a pretty good idea who was better.

So I think the most important thing is to get information from people who practice a certain style and then see as well as compare the kungfu of the people that they suggest. However I don't think an absolute beginner would be able to do this. In that case it is mostly about luck.

[YouKnowWho]

When you have problem in your fight, you ask your teacher how to solve your problem, your teacher says that you need to learn another form from him. You then know that your teacher knows nothing about fighting.

[YouKnowWho]

There are three kinds of people.

Those that don't know they don't know.

Those that know they don't know.

Those that know they know.

There are three kinds of people.

Those that

- don't know they can't do.
- know they can't do.
- know they can do.

David C. K. Lin always tells his students that there are some moves that

- he can use in combat.
- he has never used in combat but he can teach others how to use in combat.
- are only good for demo and will never work in combat.

I respect him for being honest to his students.

[Robinhood]

When you have problem in your fight, you ask your teacher how to solve your problem, your teacher says that you need to learn another form from him. You then know that your teacher knows nothing about fighting.


You got that right.

[sanjuro_ronin]

There are three kinds of people.

Those that

- don't know they can't do.
- know they can't do.
- know they can do.

David C. K. Lin always tells his students that there are some moves that

- he can use in combat.
- he has never used in combat but he can teach others how to use in combat.
- are only good for demo and will never work in combat.

I respect him for being honest to his students.

GM Lin is a good man and a great MA from what I hear.

[wenshu]

a great MA from what I hear.

http://images.dailydawdle.com/omg-it-was-you-cat.gif

[David Jamieson]

per·pet·u·ate
   [per-pech-oo-eyt]
verb (used with object), per·pet·u·at·ed, per·pet·u·at·ing.
1.to make perpetual.
2.to preserve from extinction or oblivion: to perpetuate one's name.

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://images.dailydawdle.com/omg-it-was-you-cat.gif

Caught that did you? :D

[ShaolinDan]

As long as it's going this way:

Humans perpetuate and share information, if we didn't we'd still be in the stone ages. While personal experience is the most reliable teacher, it's often far from the most efficient.

There's no getting around the need to evaluate and assimilate from sources outside of our own experience... And no getting around that we all end up choosing different sources as 'reliable.'

Keeps the world ( and forums) turning. :)