How useful are the sandbags for leg and wrist?

[xinyidizi]

I usually spend 20~30 minutes everyday on weight training but since I have a tight schedule I am thinking about buying some sandbags that can be wrapped around the leg/wrist and just practice my forms with them but before I buy them online I would like to know if this method actually works and if it can replace normal weight training.

[sanjuro_ronin]

What do you think?

[xinyidizi]

I don't know as I haven't tried them before and I don't know what weight I should order but theoretically I guess that it might be better than normal weight training as it can be more focused on the muscles that I need more. On the other hand I am worried that having the around my wrists might mess up my form.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I don't know as I haven't tried them before and I don't know what weight I should order but theoretically I guess that it might be better than normal weight training as it can be more focused on the muscles that I need more.

Well, that would depend on WHAT you are trying to do, right?
Weighting down your limbs will make it harder to do moves, of course, but since the moves you typically do in MA are not "against" gravity per say ( outside of jumping of course),then that really isn't a "direct" resistance against the correct range of motion, is it?
Ex:
Weights around your wrist will make you arm heavier BUT when you strike it isn't about overcoming the weight of your arm, is it?

Weight training is about make your muscles stronger in the IDEAL range that they typically work, and example is making the bicep stronger by curling a weight.
The bicep is used in doing an uppercut ( for example), but doing an uppercut with weight on your wrist will NOT develop the strength of that bicep as well as doing curls.
In short, for MA and pretty much any other physcial activity, you want to STRENGTH the muscles in a "general way" ( typically the best move to make the muscle the strongest) and DEVELOP the USE of that strength in a "task specific" movement, IE:
Build your chest and arm muscles with weight training
Develop the use of that strength by punching the Heavy bag, mitts, etc, etc.

You want to combine them in one, right?
Well, you can BUT you will never develop EITHER attribute as well as if you do them separately.
Your muscles will get stronger, just not as strong or as quick as with weight training.
Your techniques will get better BUT because you are doing them with artifically enhanced resistance in the wrong "range/plane of motion" then they will not be developed in the best way possible.

[xinyidizi]

thanks, it makes sense.

[sanjuro_ronin]

May I ask why you train weights "every day" as you put it?

[xinyidizi]

To be stronger in sparring. I do xinyiliuhe and taiji as a hobby but I think a certain standard in strength is necessary even for someone who does this as a hobby.

I know there are many factors involved in fajin like harmonies, structure, being relaxed, etc but in my experience muscle power is also a very important part. The power in my fajin is much more than what I could do before weight training.

[sanjuro_ronin]

To be stronger in sparring. I do xinyiliuhe and taiji as a hobby but I think a certain standard in strength is necessary even for someone who does this as a hobby.

I know there are many factors involved in fajin like harmonies, structure, being relaxed, etc but in my experience muscle power is also a very important part. The power in my fajin is much more than what I could do before weight training.

But why do you do it EVERY day?
And what type of weight training do you do?

[xinyidizi]

But why do you do it EVERY day?

Because I like to do everything in a routine. I do lots of things everyday and try to spend some time on all of them. In the morning I do warm up, weight training or sometimes push ups and work on my high kicks. in the evening I do xinyi as well as doing my moves against a heavy bag and at night I do taiji or qigong.


And what type of weight training do you do?
lifting weights in different ways.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Because I like to do everything in a routine. I do lots of things everyday and try to spend some time on all of them. In the morning I do warm up, weight training or sometimes push ups and work on my high kicks. in the evening I do xinyi and chaquan as well as doing my moves against a heavy bag and at night I do taiji or qigong.


lifting weights in different ways.

Are you following any Strength building regime/ protocol?

[xinyidizi]

Are you following any Strength building regime/ protocol?

Not really. Can you explain more?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Depending on what type of strength you want to build, you have different ways of doing it and the ONLY time you would work out "everyday" with weights is IF you are advanced AND splitting up your body parts or doing different advanced workouts every day.

[xinyidizi]

I'm very uneducated about weight training. Do you have any suggestions where I can learn more?

[David Jamieson]

Work is the architect and Rest is the builder.

If you keep constantly stressing the body and not resting it, it will take a long time to build any mass or strength. You have to rest, you have to feed the body what it needs when you are stressing it in this way.

Any number of regimens is fine, take your pick according to your goals and stick with it.

If you are sandboxing, you are wasting time in the long run.

Get a regimen. Stick to it.

[David Jamieson]

I'm very uneducated about weight training. Do you have any suggestions where I can learn more?


yes, here is a site that will fully educate you on muscular development and strength training that won't cost you much. the site itself and all the advice is 100% free and Scooby knows what he's talking about.

http://scoobysworkshop.com/

[sanjuro_ronin]

I'm very uneducated about weight training. Do you have any suggestions where I can learn more?

First step is to decide what you want to develop.
Strength
Strength and size
Strength and muscular endurance
Strength and speed

[xinyidizi]

Well size is not important at all as I do this to help me with my MA training. What kind of regimen would for example an MMA fighter choose?



@David Jamieson: Thanks for the link. Seems like a great place to start.

[IronFist]

First step is to decide what you want to develop.
Strength
Strength and size
Strength and muscular endurance
Strength and speed

And let me just jump in and tell xinyidizi that none of those is mutually exclusive.

In other words, size doesn't make you slow.

Don't be afraid to want to gain some size because you think it will make you slow or inflexible. It won't.

What makes you slow is not practicing.

What makes you inflexible is not stretching.

Plenty of Olympic gymnasts (who are bigger and stronger than us) can do the splits.

There are even some pro-level bodybuilders who can do the splits.

Plenty of pro football players can run faster than us.

Plenty of heavyweight MMA fighters who are bigger than us can punch faster than us.

Etc.

And the other thing to keep in mind is that, all else being equal, a bigger muscle has more strength potential.

You can get a lot stronger without gaining any size, and in fact there are specific ways to train to do this. A smaller guy can even be stronger than a bigger guy. But the strongest people on the planet are big guys.

Are you a car guy? If so, think of muscle size as engine displacement and strength as engine modification.

Take a 2 liter 150hp engine -- that's like a small guy. Now have that small guy train specifically for strength. He won't gain much size, but he will get a lot stronger. That's like turbo charging the engine. It's still 2 liters but now it's 300hp, and it's now faster than most of the other cars on the road (and he's stronger than most of his friends and athletes who don't train specifically for strength, and he will even be stronger than some of the bodybuilders at his gym even though his muscles aren't as big).

Now take a 6 liter V12. It has much more potential. Turbo charge it and tune it up and you might be making 600-800hp. Big and strong.

In real life, strength is a function of the neurological efficiency of your muscles. How well can your body use them? A bigger muscle has more potential. But a smaller, highly trained, efficient muscle can be stronger than a bigger, less-fully trained muscle.

I've probably both over-simplified this AND managed to confuse you with that analogy that sounded better in my head than it did when I wrote it out :o

Cliffs Notes:
- big muscles don't make you slow or inflexible
- you can get strong without getting big
- all else being equal, bigger muscles have more strength potential

[YouKnowWho]

I had put ankle weight for my running. After I realized that it hurt my knee joint, I stopped using it. Weight and speed don't go together very well.

[-N-]

When I was in high school and early college, I used to wear 5lbs of ankle weights on each leg all day long, every day. I took them off when I exercised or ran, but otherwise I had them on while I walked everywhere. I even wore them to sleep.

Just wearing them, and going back and forth across campus every hour or so, and going up and down stairs, made my kicks really fast. When I took off the weights, it felt like my legs wanted to float up on their own. Felt like no effort at all to kick. I aways tell people to do ankle weights to develop relaxed fast kicks.

[David Jamieson]

I had put ankle weight for my running. After I realized that it hurt my knee joint, I stopped using it. Weight and speed don't go together very well.

True.

A weighted vest is better for running than putting weights below the moving joints.
Compression they can handle more than separation and weights at the ankle are not a good idea because they pull and separate the joint at the ankle and the knee.

As an aside, in the case of rings used in sets, the rings move along the limb and don't pull at the joints.

[bawang]

there is a big problem with your thinking.


1. weight vest is found in traditional kung fu training, but it is not appropriate to do forms with them. you will hurt yourself.

2. chinese kung fu uses heavy weight vest up to 100 pounds. forearm and shin weights are added when its impossible to increase the weight of the vest any higher. in other words, there is no short cut, only tough, bitter training. wearing 5 pound baby bracelets will increase your power by 5 pounds.

3. you choose your remaining time to do forms over (weight) training. forms is not training. if you just want the crisp snappy punches that looks good, not weights is neccesarry. all you have to do is punch in horse stance 100 times a day.



you have to learn to make sacrifices, to choose what is more important to you. there is no short cut. if you dont have the time to train, you will not have kung fu.

[David Jamieson]

there is a big problem with your thinking.


1. weight vest is found in traditional kung fu training, but it is not appropriate to do forms with them. you will hurt yourself.

2. chinese kung fu uses heavy weight vest up to 100 pounds. forearm and shin weights are added when its impossible to increase the weight of the vest any higher. in other words, there is no short cut, only tough, bitter training. wearing 5 pound baby bracelets will increase your power by 5 pounds.

3. you choose your remaining time to do forms over (weight) training. forms is not training. if you just want the crisp snappy punches that looks good, not weights is neccesarry. all you have to do is punch in horse stance 100 times a day.



you have to learn to make sacrifices, to choose what is more important to you. there is no short cut. if you dont have the time to train, you will not have kung fu.

1. who said anything about forms. Weight added when running or jogging isn't a bad thing. It increases stamina and endurance over time of use.

2. what are baby bracelets? lol

3. training should be balanced out so that all things can get proper development.

We all have time to train. We all have individual learning styles. Some take 2 years to learn, others take 5 but we all get to spend the rest of our lives training because we enjoy it.

[bawang]

1. who said anything about forms. Weight added when running or jogging isn't a bad thing. It increases stamina and endurance over time of use.

2. what are baby bracelets? lol

3. training should be balanced out so that all things can get proper development.

We all have time to train. We all have individual learning styles. Some take 2 years to learn, others take 5 but we all get to spend the rest of our lives training because we enjoy it.


the guy started the thread asking if doing forms with ankle weights will give him power. i said no

[sanjuro_ronin]

And let me just jump in and tell xinyidizi that none of those is mutually exclusive.

In other words, size doesn't make you slow.

Don't be afraid to want to gain some size because you think it will make you slow or inflexible. It won't.

What makes you slow is not practicing.

What makes you inflexible is not stretching.

Plenty of Olympic gymnasts (who are bigger and stronger than us) can do the splits.

There are even some pro-level bodybuilders who can do the splits.

Plenty of pro football players can run faster than us.

Plenty of heavyweight MMA fighters who are bigger than us can punch faster than us.

Etc.

And the other thing to keep in mind is that, all else being equal, a bigger muscle has more strength potential.

You can get a lot stronger without gaining any size, and in fact there are specific ways to train to do this. A smaller guy can even be stronger than a bigger guy. But the strongest people on the planet are big guys.

Are you a car guy? If so, think of muscle size as engine displacement and strength as engine modification.

Take a 2 liter 150hp engine -- that's like a small guy. Now have that small guy train specifically for strength. He won't gain much size, but he will get a lot stronger. That's like turbo charging the engine. It's still 2 liters but now it's 300hp, and it's now faster than most of the other cars on the road (and he's stronger than most of his friends and athletes who don't train specifically for strength, and he will even be stronger than some of the bodybuilders at his gym even though his muscles aren't as big).

Now take a 6 liter V12. It has much more potential. Turbo charge it and tune it up and you might be making 600-800hp. Big and strong.

In real life, strength is a function of the neurological efficiency of your muscles. How well can your body use them? A bigger muscle has more potential. But a smaller, highly trained, efficient muscle can be stronger than a bigger, less-fully trained muscle.

I've probably both over-simplified this AND managed to confuse you with that analogy that sounded better in my head than it did when I wrote it out :o

Cliffs Notes:
- big muscles don't make you slow or inflexible
- you can get strong without getting big
- all else being equal, bigger muscles have more strength potential

Yes, agreed 100%.
I didn't want to go there yet, but hey, you went there, LOL !

[SimonM]

I usually spend 20~30 minutes everyday on weight training but since I have a tight schedule I am thinking about buying some sandbags that can be wrapped around the leg/wrist and just practice my forms with them but before I buy them online I would like to know if this method actually works and if it can replace normal weight training.

I use wrist weights in addition to weight lifting. They CAN be quite effective but they don't substitute for weights.

The wrist weights are substantially lighter than conventional bar bells / bars / kettlebells / etc. They are also used in a really different manner from how you use weights. They'll make your forms more tiring and will help develop your striking speed - but do be careful of your joints; using the wrist weights wrong can be very harmful to them.

Just my $0.02

[YouKnowWho]

First step is to decide what you want to develop. ... Strength and speed

I agree with you on this. The weight pulley is my favor one when I go to gym 3 times a week. I usually use 60 lb and pull it 340 times (13 different ways of pulling) as my 1st work out before I move to others. There were 2 times that I used 80 lb weight and I hurt my elbow joint in both and I had to stop doing that for 3 months. The way that I pull my weight pulley, I would pull in with maximum speed and then suddently relase it with maximum speed. This way there will be a delay when the weight drop back down and that drop will pull my body forward. I can use this to develop my body resistence against outside pulling force (an important ability in grappling). The problem happen when I use too much weight (80 lb). That fast speed downward dropping had hurt my elbow joint big time.

When I work on the

- "weight pulley", my goal is to "develop body respond against outside pulling force" (plus few others goals). My goal is not to develop big muscle and arm strength.
- "bench press", I work on strength 100%.

So to decide what you want to develop is important. Again too much weight and fast speed don't go well with each other.

[David Jamieson]

@Ironfist

That was actually a pretty good analogy. :)

[IronFist]

Yes, agreed 100%.
I didn't want to go there yet, but hey, you went there, LOL !

I just wanted to stop this from turning into a "I don't want to get big because it will make me slow and inflexible" discussion.

[Raipizo]

I don't think the weights would hurt to use just do the form slow, it might build some power but weight lifting would be more effective obviously. But you can't just focus on lifting and expect to be able to throw a fast good punch or kick either. If you're just looking to build muscle then you should be fine but improving your m.a will take more than just that, but I'm sure you knew that :p

[IronFist]

When I work on the

- "weight pulley", my goal is to "develop body respond against outside pulling force" (plus few others goals). My goal is not to develop big muscle and arm strength.
- "bench press", I work on strength 100%.



I'm confused what the difference is. How is the first one not also strength?

Do you mean because the 340 reps you do are training more for endurance (given that you are doing 340 reps of something the weight by definition is not "heavy")?

[YouKnowWho]

I'm confused what the difference is. How is the first one not also strength?

Do you mean because the 340 reps you do are training more for endurance (given that you are doing 340 reps of something the weight by definition is not "heavy")?
If I want to use weight pulley to build strength and big muscle, I'll use

- more weight,
- less rep,
- less speed.

When I work on weight pulley, that's not my goal. This is one of my drills that I do everytime.

http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/9546/weightpulley4.jpg

[-N-]

I'm confused what the difference is. How is the first one not also strength?

Do you mean because the 340 reps you do are training more for endurance (given that you are doing 340 reps of something the weight by definition is not "heavy")?

The focus is more on relaxation, explosive reaction, and stability.

[YouKnowWho]

The focus is more on relaxation, explosive reaction, and stability.

Thanks for the better words. Most people when they pull their weight pulley. they will:

- pull the weight off the ground first.
- pull it higher.
- release it but don't let the weight to drop back down to the ground.
- after many rep, they will finally let the weight to drop back down to the ground.

Please notice that in the whole process, his body is tense because he has to deal with the weight all the time.

I like to start with

- the weight is still on the ground and my rope is loose.
- I suddently pull it off the ground.
- I then release my rope, the weight is still in the air.
- I then let the weight go back down to the ground again.

Between each pulling, I'm not dealing with the weight. This way, my body is relax. When I pull my weight, I use maximum speed (speed prevent me from using too much weight). I also have to use my feet to maintain strong rooting.

[-N-]

Thanks for the better words. Most people

[...]

Please notice that in the whole process, his body is tense because he has to deal with the weight all the time..

You're welcome.

In Chinese, we call this dead strength. It has its use, but is very rigid.



Between each pulling, I'm not dealing with the weight. This way, my body is relax. When I pull my weight, I use maximum speed (speed prevent me from using too much weight). I also have to use my feet to maintain strong rooting.

This is more useful for us as fighters. This develops flexibilty and agility of the explosive reaction and instantaneous relaxation. The sharper the transitions, the greater the power, and the better ability to put together combinations.

[IronFist]

Are you guys saying there are different ways to contract your muscles?

[-N-]

No.

It's about being able to make fast transitions between contracted and relaxed states and vice versa. And also about being able to make core stability adjust dynamically while doing so.

When the weight is falling, you train instant relaxation so that your structure is not detectable by your opponent. Then you snap the weight at the bottom of its travel to train ability to instantly create the structure and connection you need to strike or throw. You train to make it appear and disappear.

[YouKnowWho]

Are you guys saying there are different ways to contract your muscles?

If you want to grab on your opponent and "shake" him, how do you use your gym equipment to help you to develop that ability (when training partner is not available)?

"Fast pull and fast push" is the way to develop that ability.

[sanjuro_ronin]

We gone over this before guys:
General strength training makes muscles stronger
Specific strength training makes them more powerful within the context of what you are training.
In short, for pulling moves your strength your pulling muscles with general strength exercises such as Pull-ups, deadlifts, rows, curls AND to use them in a specific way of pulling, you train THAT specific way of pulling.

[wenshu]

I like to use the cable machines for shoulder throw type set ups. But that's more about foot work at least to me, the weight just gives you some resistance to work against.

One thing that is really hard to work on with normal weight training is strengthening the waist turn.

http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/9546/weightpulley4.jpg

[IronFist]

If you want to grab on your opponent and "shake" him, how do you use your gym equipment to help you to develop that ability (when training partner is not available)?

I train to get stronger so that I have more available muscle tension with which to "shake" my opponent.

[IronFist]

I like to use the cable machines for shoulder throw type set ups. But that's more about foot work at least to me, the weight just gives you some resistance to work against.

One thing that is really hard to work on with normal weight training is strengthening the waist turn.

http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/9546/weightpulley4.jpg

You'd be better off with full contact twists.

http://spider.noxis.net/pub/fit/full-contact-twist.jpg

http://bmsi.ru/_uf/image/Punching_With_Power1-44.jpg

edit - unless you believe there is some "sport-specific" carryover to that exact cable machine motion you are doing.

[wenshu]

That's not a bad exercise.

Doesn't mimic the setup for a shoulder throw and the range of motion is a too limited for the degree of waist turn.

A pulley set up offers greater options for certain movements that aren't possible with a throwing dummy or free weights. There are specific movements that if you want to add continous resistance you need the cable set up.

[IronFist]

Sport-specific training is kind of nonsense anyway, though.

Want to be better at shoulder throwing? Get big and strong and practice your shoulder throws.

Doing some cable exercise that roughly approximates doing a shoulder throw isn't really helping any.

It's kind of like those guys who use the golf club attachment on the pulley machine and think it's making their golf swing more powerful...

There are two things that will make your golf swing more powerful:

1) improving your ability to do the movement through increased efficiency, muscle memory, CNS adaptation, etc. (which you develop by doing the movement, not by doing an approximation of it with a pulley machine)

2) by having stronger muscles that can generate more tension and contract faster

The golf club attachment on the pulley machine does neither of those.

Sport specific training doesn't help because it doesn't mimic the conditions of the sport. It mimics the conditions of doing something on the pulley machine.

Look, is it better than nothing? Most likely. But is it optimal or ideal? Definitely not.

Tiger Woods can drive a ball further than Ronnie Coleman. Ronnie Coleman is stronger than Tiger Woods.

Imagine if Tiger had Ronnie's Strength, or if Ronnie played golf and had Tiger's muscle memory and technique.

Figure out the muscles you need to do whatever it is you do and make them stronger.

Two identical twin boxers have both been training for 2 years and have the same technical ability, speed, and level of skill. One of them can deadlift 500 pounds and bench 300, the other one does silly nonsense like punching with the cable machine.

Who do you think can hit harder?

[IronFist]

I even recall hearing somewhere that doing your sport specific movement against resistance makes you slower. I know it feels faster when you take the weight away, but that's because there's less resistance. Saying it "feels faster" is about as reliable as a butt dyno telling you that your car "feels faster" after you put a huge exhaust on it that screwed up your back pressure and actually reduced your horsepower. But it "feels faster."

I can't remember the source. Does anyone know?

The study I think it cited was that runners who run with parachutes behind them don't actually improve their speed because they're not running any faster, and because the motion with the added drag is different from a normal running motion so it's not training the correct movement. The article said to improve your speed past a certain point you have to run on a decline surface so that with the aid of gravity your legs are actually able to move faster and that will train the pathways to make your body move faster.

Does that sound familiar to anyone? I may have some things confused here.

Don't quote me on any of this.

[Lucas]

i even recall hearing somewhere that doing your sport specific movement against resistance makes you slower. I know it feels faster when you take the weight away, but that's because there's less resistance.

I can't remember the source. Does anyone know?

The study i think it cited was that runners who run with parachutes behind them don't actually improve their speed because they're not running any faster, and because the motion with the added drag is different from a normal running motion so it's not training the correct movement. The article said to improve your speed past a certain point you have to run on a decline surface so that with the aid of gravity your legs are actually able to move faster and that will train the pathways to make your body move faster.

Does that sound familiar to anyone? I may have some things confused here.

:D


don't quote me on any of this.

haaa!!!

[wenshu]

Sport-specific training is kind of nonsense anyway, though.

Want to be better at shoulder throwing? Get big and strong and practice your shoulder throws.

Doing some cable exercise that roughly approximates doing a shoulder throw isn't really helping any.

It's kind of like those guys who use the golf club attachment on the pulley machine and think it's making their golf swing more powerful...

There are two things that will make your golf swing more powerful:

1) improving your ability to do the movement through increased efficiency, muscle memory, CNS adaptation, etc. (which you develop by doing the movement, not by doing an approximation of it with a pulley machine)

2) by having stronger muscles that can generate more tension and contract faster

The golf club attachment on the pulley machine does neither of those.

Sport specific training doesn't help because it doesn't mimic the conditions of the sport. It mimics the conditions of doing something on the pulley machine.

Look, is it better than nothing? Most likely. But is it optimal or ideal? Definitely not.

Tiger Woods can drive a ball further than Ronnie Coleman. Ronnie Coleman is stronger than Tiger Woods.

Imagine if Tiger had Ronnie's Strength, or if Ronnie played golf and had Tiger's muscle memory and technique.

Figure out the muscles you need to do whatever it is you do and make them stronger.

Two identical twin boxers have both been training for 2 years and have the same technical ability, speed, and level of skill. One of them can deadlift 500 pounds and bench 300, the other one does silly nonsense like punching with the cable machine.

Who do you think can hit harder?

Ill take that under advisement given your years of experience in throwing arts. . .what do you train in again?

I don't give a **** if Darth Vader can play banjo better than Capt Kirk. Imaginary comparisons based on oversimplified scenarios are meaningless.

I can't deadlift, squat and do weighted pull ups everyday (well, I could but I wouldn't last long) and I don't have the opportunity to spar or practice techniques with a partner everyday either.

Maximal strength isn't everything and not every workout is about building max strength in the most efficient way. And golf has exactly ****all to do with strength.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I even recall hearing somewhere that doing your sport specific movement against resistance makes you slower. I know it feels faster when you take the weight away, but that's because there's less resistance. Saying it "feels faster" is about as reliable as a butt dyno telling you that your car "feels faster" after you put a huge exhaust on it that screwed up your back pressure and actually reduced your horsepower. But it "feels faster."

I can't remember the source. Does anyone know?

The study I think it cited was that runners who run with parachutes behind them don't actually improve their speed because they're not running any faster, and because the motion with the added drag is different from a normal running motion so it's not training the correct movement. The article said to improve your speed past a certain point you have to run on a decline surface so that with the aid of gravity your legs are actually able to move faster and that will train the pathways to make your body move faster.

Does that sound familiar to anyone? I may have some things confused here.

Don't quote me on any of this.

Yes, certain "sport specific" routines have been shown to make the athlete slower.
Some have been shown to make athletes lose strength.
Punching with hand weights is an example of a routine that works the wrong muscles in the punching movement.

[xinyidizi]

What do you guys think about learning something like 石锁（shisuo）？ Is it the kind of weight training that can be more useful for martial artists?

[Frost]

Yes, certain "sport specific" routines have been shown to make the athlete slower.
Some have been shown to make athletes lose strength.
Punching with hand weights is an example of a routine that works the wrong muscles in the punching movement.

but all have been shown to make a lot of money for companies that produce the equipment and for trainers certified in the methods :)

[IronFist]

Ill take that under advisement given your years of experience in throwing arts. . .what do you train in again?

I don't give a **** if Darth Vader can play banjo better than Capt Kirk. Imaginary comparisons based on oversimplified scenarios are meaningless.

I can't deadlift, squat and do weighted pull ups everyday (well, I could but I wouldn't last long) and I don't have the opportunity to spar or practice techniques with a partner everyday either.

You could DL, squat and do weighted pullups every day just fine if you keep the volume down. Well, 4-5 days a week is better than every day. Two sets of 5 for each exercise, 5 minutes rest minimum between sets. Your workout would be over in 30 minutes and you'd be much stronger than you are now.


Maximal strength isn't everything and not every workout is about building max strength in the most efficient way. And golf has exactly ****all to do with strength.

lol. What is a golfer using to move his muscles to hit the ball if not strength?

Golf, just like every other non-endurance activity in the world, is based on two things:

1) technique/neurological efficiency of the movement

2) strength

[IronFist]

but all have been shown to make a lot of money for companies that produce the equipment and for trainers certified in the methods :)

You make an excellent point.

[JamesC]

As IronFist already pointed out, "sport-specific" training is a gimmick.

A good strength program can be done 3 times a week in under 45 minutes.

Why waste time trying to get strong at one particular movement when you can do something like a squat or deadlift that makes your entire body stronger just as easily?

[David Jamieson]

I agree.

Functional strength is what you want.
You want to have strength in any application?
Do resistance training.

Engage the whole posterior chain in compound lifting.
Engage the whole anterior chain in compound lifting.
Do road work (yes, cardio helps a lot).
Do core work. (more important than big chest and arms)

Do your sport/art/whatever.

[wenshu]

You could DL, squat and do weighted pullups every day just fine if you keep the volume down. Well, 4-5 days a week is better than every day. Two sets of 5 for each exercise, 5 minutes rest minimum between sets. Your workout would be over in 30 minutes and you'd be much stronger than you are now.


Spoken like a true novice.

Apparently you don't play golf either.

If strength is so important in golf why was a doughy 17 year old in contention in the US Open?

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2012/06/17/sports/open/open-popup.jpg

Or 14 year old korean girls who can outdrive most men in their twenties?

[wenshu]

Riddle me this batman.

I know JamesC knows all about this.

Assistance exercises. Many renowned powerlifting programs prescribe them. Identify a weakness, for instance the lower back (and by extension the hamstrings) in the squat, and target it with exercises that isolate that area to improve your overall performance. Weighted back extensions and reverse hypers. Or front squats to load the anterior chain more if your flexors and quads are the weak link. Exercises that are removed from the actual movements performed in competitions by varying degrees. By your guy's recycled logic those are all just gimmicks. I wonder how the estiminable Mr. Simmons would feel about that.

You don't need certifications in kinestesiology to know that doing one legged squats balanced on a bosu ball while juggling kettlebells on fire is retarded. But it is pure intellectual laziness to paint everything in broad stroke knee jerk powerlifting forum regurgitations when common sense will suffice.

"Durrrrr functional training is bad durrrrrr"

[bawang]

sounds like you are scared of big muscles.


big, sweaty, oily pulsating muscles.

[JamesC]

Riddle me this batman.

I know JamesC knows all about this.

Assistance exercises. Many renowned powerlifting programs prescribe them. Identify a weakness, for instance the lower back (and by extension the hamstrings) in the squat, and target it with exercises that isolate that area to improve your overall performance. Weighted back extensions and reverse hypers. Or front squats to load the anterior chain more if your flexors and quads are the weak link. Exercises that are removed from the actual movements performed in competitions by varying degrees. By your guy's recycled logic those are all just gimmicks. I wonder how the estiminable Mr. Simmons would feel about that.

You don't need certifications in kinestesiology to know that doing one legged squats balanced on a bosu ball while juggling kettlebells on fire is retarded. But it is pure intellectual laziness to paint everything in broad stroke knee jerk powerlifting forum regurgitations when common sense will suffice.

"Durrrrr functional training is bad durrrrrr"

I'm not sure why everything you post has to make you sound like such a ****. I can't tell if it is on purpose or not.

No one is saying that assistance exercises are useless. That isn't the same thing as sport specific exercises touted by the personal trainwreckers down at the Y.

You can't see that getting generally stronger with basic compound lifts is more useful than doing some arbitrary movement pattern that you hope will increase throwing capability?

I'm more than happy to have a decent conversation about it because I don't want you to think that i'm some powerlifting elitist hellbent on converting everyone to doing squats and deadlifts as part of their strength training.

If you can't have a civil conversation without trying to get a rise out of anyone that disagrees with you then i'm done with you.

[IronFist]

If strength is so important in golf why was a doughy 17 year old in contention in the US Open?

Is this a serious question?

I said strength is useful for increasing the distance you can hit the ball. I assume you know there is more to golf than just "who can hit it the furthest?" I never said strong muscles give you the ability to judge wind, distance, angle, or line up your putts better. Golf is not a strength-based sport.


Or 14 year old korean girls who can outdrive most men in their twenties?

I highly doubt a 14 year old Korean girl can outdrive a male golfer in his twenties who plays an equal amount of golf. If you're going to make comparisons make sure all else is equal.

She may be able to outdrive a man in his twenties who who has never played golf before. I assume you know the reason why (hint: I mentioned it in a previous post).

[YouKnowWho]

Sport-specific training is kind of nonsense anyway, ... Get big and strong ...
My daughter has never done any bench press or squats in her life. She is not big and strong but she can do what I can't do.

She travels all over the world and teaches her art in many different countries. As far as I know, both bench press and squarts are not part of her teaching program.

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/1957/nanac.jpg

http://natashawang.com/

[Lucas]

shes one of the few women who have actually done something classy with that skill

[bawang]

what you talking about john? your daughter obviously has big strong muskles. i cannot even make hand party to her


What do you guys think about learning something like 石锁（shisuo）？ Is it the kind of weight training that can be more useful for martial artists?

https://encrypted-tbn1.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQZBGKyBC_iKU6aHroY9kvMOyQGjogH_ SN_RdDw_AVCMPizYiRsIQ
https://encrypted-tbn2.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSL0ikCpLoWDgXFg68mHDi3zpZMozloN XIP6l3RIv_WCkXMrg8y5A

[IronFist]

My daughter has never done any bench press or squats in her life. She is not big and strong but she can do what I can't do.

She travels all over the world and teaches her art in many different countries. As far as I know, both bench press and squarts are not part of her teaching program.

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/1957/nanac.jpg

http://natashawang.com/

I don't understand the context of your post in reply to my post.

Her skill has nothing to do with needing to bench press or squat. She would be stronger if she did but it's not necessary for her sport.

[YouKnowWho]

it's not necessary for her sport.
For some sport, function training is more important than strength training. It's just like sandbags on the legs will not help running.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Riddle me this batman.

I know JamesC knows all about this.

Assistance exercises. Many renowned powerlifting programs prescribe them. Identify a weakness, for instance the lower back (and by extension the hamstrings) in the squat, and target it with exercises that isolate that area to improve your overall performance. Weighted back extensions and reverse hypers. Or front squats to load the anterior chain more if your flexors and quads are the weak link. Exercises that are removed from the actual movements performed in competitions by varying degrees. By your guy's recycled logic those are all just gimmicks. I wonder how the estiminable Mr. Simmons would feel about that.

You don't need certifications in kinestesiology to know that doing one legged squats balanced on a bosu ball while juggling kettlebells on fire is retarded. But it is pure intellectual laziness to paint everything in broad stroke knee jerk powerlifting forum regurgitations when common sense will suffice.

"Durrrrr functional training is bad durrrrrr"

There is a reason they are called assistance exercises dude.
The core principles of strength training have always been:
Compound lifts for overall general strength.
Assistence work to develop that "parts you miss".
Even powerlifters do assistance work.

[Frost]

Riddle me this batman.

I know JamesC knows all about this.

Assistance exercises. Many renowned powerlifting programs prescribe them. Identify a weakness, for instance the lower back (and by extension the hamstrings) in the squat, and target it with exercises that isolate that area to improve your overall performance. Weighted back extensions and reverse hypers. Or front squats to load the anterior chain more if your flexors and quads are the weak link. Exercises that are removed from the actual movements performed in competitions by varying degrees. By your guy's recycled logic those are all just gimmicks. I wonder how the estiminable Mr. Simmons would feel about that.

You don't need certifications in kinestesiology to know that doing one legged squats balanced on a bosu ball while juggling kettlebells on fire is retarded. But it is pure intellectual laziness to paint everything in broad stroke knee jerk powerlifting forum regurgitations when common sense will suffice.

"Durrrrr functional training is bad durrrrrr"
you do come across as an a$$ most of the time, you not getting any at home? :)

many programs do use assistance exercises (mostly geared lifters as you know being a competitive powerlifter and all), alot dont though many work record holding powerlifters just do the big three lifts....so to recap some get strong just doing the big three, some get strong doing the big three and assistance exercises yet no one gets strong without doing the big three, riddle me that muppet :rolleyes:

[sanjuro_ronin]

what you talking about john? your daughter obviously has big strong muskles. i cannot even make hand party to her



https://encrypted-tbn1.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQZBGKyBC_iKU6aHroY9kvMOyQGjogH_ SN_RdDw_AVCMPizYiRsIQ
https://encrypted-tbn2.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSL0ikCpLoWDgXFg68mHDi3zpZMozloN XIP6l3RIv_WCkXMrg8y5A

Awesome !!