Wing chun master class demo

[thedreamer7]

Thoughts on the techniques here?

http://www.wingchuntaoist.com/2012/06/wing-chun-master-class-demo.html

[imperialtaichi]

Thoughts on the techniques here?

http://www.wingchuntaoist.com/2012/06/wing-chun-master-class-demo.html

Attach a kettle-bell to your wrist (or something heavy) and see what body structure can support the weight with ease.

Have someone really resist and see how well it works.

[wingchunIan]

Attach a kettle-bell to your wrist (or something heavy) and see what body structure can support the weight with ease.

Have someone really resist and see how well it works.

Why would you put a weight at the wrist? it would serve no purpose. I'm not from the same lineage as the guy in the clip and I'm not a fan of his chum kiu explanation but I don't see the relevance of putting weight on the wrist.

[imperialtaichi]

Why would you put a weight at the wrist? it would serve no purpose. I'm not from the same lineage as the guy in the clip and I'm not a fan of his chum kiu explanation but I don't see the relevance of putting weight on the wrist.

As a test. Your opponent is not going to play your game, will be looking for opportunity to crush you. A good structure should give you the ability to manipulate incoming force with ease.

[imperialtaichi]

It is not up to me to comment what's right or wrong, just suggesting how one can test their structures.

[wingchunIan]

but hanging a kettle bell on your wrist is not a test of structure. By definition gravity will pull the kettle bell straight down. If you feel a downwards pressure at your wrist you should simply let it go and so applying this logic you would just keep dropping the kettle bell. Testing structure is fine but only if it is tested in the direction in which it is intended to be strong.

[imperialtaichi]

but hanging a kettle bell on your wrist is not a test of structure. By definition gravity will pull the kettle bell straight down. If you feel a downwards pressure at your wrist you should simply let it go and so applying this logic you would just keep dropping the kettle bell. Testing structure is fine but only if it is tested in the direction in which it is intended to be strong.

Fair enough. I am presenting an over simplified view.

However, the beginning part of the video, the teacher does seem to be "lifting" the student's arm/elbow with the bong Sau, of which if the student was resisting, he could push down with a fair bit of weight.

[LoneTiger108]

Looking at Sifu Leos clip it is obvious he is entertaining many beginners and is using what he knows best to explain specifics, but imho this isn't a 'Master Class' at all but an intro for the newbie.

Interesting ideas that are familiar to me, but again nothing like how I would do things personally but that's neither here nor there...

I see his U.S student is based in NYC so maybe some of you guys have met him already?

[nasmedicine]

Why would you put a weight at the wrist? it would serve no purpose. I'm not from the same lineage as the guy in the clip and I'm not a fan of his chum kiu explanation but I don't see the relevance of putting weight on the wrist.

IMO, The more distal you go on the arm (wrist) the weaker the structure is. If you can master the weakest point then everything else falls into place, IMO. This only gives you something to start out with, later apply what you came out of that exercise with to your push hand/chi sao/gor sao/grappling...etc. Same can be come in the opposite direction at the wrist.

[wingchunIan]

Fair enough. I am presenting an over simplified view.

However, the beginning part of the video, the teacher does seem to be "lifting" the student's arm/elbow with the bong Sau, of which if the student was resisting, he could push down with a fair bit of weight.

fair comment, I see where you are coming from now.That bit of the clip is a little alien to me, its not something I do. I guess you could test it by getting the partner to push down hard and fast at the elbow. In theory at least if you get your hips underneath and the elbow is higher than the shoulder you should be able to transmit the force to your legs but then as I say its not something I do.

[Wayfaring]

Thoughts on the techniques here?

http://www.wingchuntaoist.com/2012/06/wing-chun-master-class-demo.html

I'm actually starting to form an opinion that watching one-step punch and response videos makes you slightly stupider every time you see one.

To me the bong sau he's showing is a whole lot longer of a movement than the punch coming in that he's trying to deal with. As such it's not real appealing from an efficiency standpoint. From my experience, movements like that degrade with live action - not very effective.

[Robinhood]

This is one of the main problems with these guys, they try to explain why something works and don't know the real reasons themselves, so everybody get more confused when doesn't work.


Cheers

[sanjuro_ronin]

When techniques and principles are developed in a practical way ( under pressure) BUT are not trained that way, something gets lost in the translation.
Returning to the old ways may not be such a bad thing for many so-called traditionalists.
And by old way I mean how the developers of WC did it: Pressure testing.

[JPinAZ]

Thoughts on the techniques here?

http://www.wingchuntaoist.com/2012/06/wing-chun-master-class-demo.html

Forget the techniques. I only watched the opening of the clip and the first thing he advocates is to turn off line before he has even engaged the attack or any energy on a bridge, which is giving up Centerline. No Centerline - no WCK.

I shut it off after that.

[thedreamer7]

Forget the techniques. I only watched the opening of the clip and the first thing he advocates is to turn off line before he has even engaged the attack or any energy on a bridge, which is giving up Centerline. No Centerline - no WCK.

I shut it off after that.

No he advocating turning when confronting the attack. Do you not hear his words, "When he comes in, I turn"

[k gledhill]

Forget the techniques. I only watched the opening of the clip and the first thing he advocates is to turn off line before he has even engaged the attack or any energy on a bridge, which is giving up Centerline. No Centerline - no WCK.

I shut it off after that.

Agree with you there, as soon as he turns away from the guy with a bong....

[Buddha_Fist]

My teacher told me a while back "A lot of B.S. seems plausible once you remove speed and intent out of the equation!". I see this again and again with what many so called "Masters" teach.

Sad...

:(

[YouKnowWho]

"When he comes in, I turn"

I don't like to train, "How should I react to my opponent when he punches at me". I like to train, "How should I react to my opponent when I punch at him and he reacts to it". In the 1st case, my opponent leads the fight. In the 2nd case, I'll lead the fight.

[imperialtaichi]

I don't like to train, "How should I react to my opponent when he punches at me". I like to train, "How should I react to my opponent when I punch at him and he reacts to it". In the 1st case, my opponent leads the fight. In the 2nd case, I'll lead the fight.

Haha, absolutely. Don't deal with the opponent, make the opponent deal with you.

My Motto: "I don't simultaneous defense and attack; ATTACK is my defense."
and: "Attack the opponent's attack."

[kinggaruda]

I see his U.S student is based in NYC so maybe some of you guys have met him already?

While working in NYC I went to his class. His style is very different to most schools, he is not commercial and tends to not hold back on knowledge. He only had a small number of students, however considering their experience, they were very advanced. It was more like going to a boxing class and that probably reflects his background.

Being Leo Au Yeung's student he did have a great deal of knowledge on the Hong Kong scene, which was interesting.

[LoneTiger108]

While working in NYC I went to his class. His style is very different to most schools, he is not commercial and tends to not hold back on knowledge. He only had a small number of students, however considering their experience, they were very advanced. It was more like going to a boxing class and that probably reflects his background.

Being Leo Au Yeung's student he did have a great deal of knowledge on the Hong Kong scene, which was interesting.

Thanks for the info on the NYC hall.

I also know he is very knowledgeable, wouldn't you be if you were trained by Ip Chun in his mother tongue? I also know Ip Chun and Ip Ching are very knowledgeable too. But this doesn't stop them having 'so-so' reputations as Martial Artists. Sifu Leo is an allrounder, being a traditional CMA guy too but you heard it here first...


Forget the techniques. I only watched the opening of the clip and the first thing he advocates is to turn off line before he has even engaged the attack or any energy on a bridge, which is giving up Centerline. No Centerline - no WCK.

I find statements like this quite funny but that's just me. Take the clip for what it is, sharing ideas with newcomers. Ideas should never be fixed at the beginning because we are not slaves to the art of Wing Chun. Didn't someone famous say that? :rolleyes:

[YouKnowWho]

Thoughts on the techniques here?

http://www.wingchuntaoist.com/2012/06/wing-chun-master-class-demo.html
Old Chinese saying said, "Fight for the top (gravity advantage), don't fight for the below. Fight for the inside (short distance advantage), don't fight for the outside".

At 1.20, A's arm is on top B's arm (A had gravity advantage). A's elbow joint has passed B's forearm. A could drop his elbow and moved his arm under B's left shoulder and achieved a perfect "under hook". IMO, A had more advantage than B at that moment.

[wingchunIan]

I also know he is very knowledgeable, wouldn't you be if you were trained by Ip Chun in his mother tongue? I also know Ip Chun and Ip Ching are very knowledgeable too. But this doesn't stop them having 'so-so' reputations as Martial Artists. :
The only place that the Ip brothers have a reputation as "so-so" martial artists is amongst 3rd, 4th, 5th etc generation sheep and those that take gossip and mischeif making as fact. Having met and trained with both, their skill is way above most of what I witness from other alledged masters, and it makes me sad that in HK and southern China there is a mutual respect amongst the senior teachers that unfortunately is not mirrored in the West where the tendancy to marking grand claims and derrision of others to hide one's own failings are the norm.

[imperialtaichi]

At 1.20, A's arm is on top B's arm (A had gravity advantage). A's elbow joint has passed B's forearm. A could drop his elbow and moved his arm under B's left shoulder and achieved a perfect "under hook". IMO, A had more advantage than B at that moment.

That's the bit I was referring to, that we can test with weights.

[wingchunIan]

Forget the techniques. I only watched the opening of the clip and the first thing he advocates is to turn off line before he has even engaged the attack or any energy on a bridge, which is giving up Centerline. No Centerline - no WCK.

I shut it off after that.

Lol, because getting out of the way is always such a bad idea!
FWIW he changes the centreline by turning (others call it shifting) he doesn't give up the centreline at any point, he actually takes control of it. Draw a line connecting the jic seen of them both and then play the clip through following that line and look again to see who has control of it

[LoneTiger108]

The only place that the Ip brothers have a reputation as "so-so" martial artists is amongst 3rd, 4th, 5th etc generation sheep and those that take gossip and mischeif making as fact.

I am with you on that one Ian...

[Hendrik]

Old Chinese saying said, "Fight for the top (gravity advantage), don't fight for the below. Fight for the inside (short distance advantage), don't fight for the outside".

At 1.20, A's arm is on top B's arm (A had gravity advantage). A's elbow joint has passed B's forearm. A could drop his elbow and moved his arm under B's left shoulder and achieved a perfect "under hook". IMO, A had more advantage than B at that moment.



YouknowWho,


This is where real life and theory seperated.


1, old chinese saying said " fight for the top, dont fight for the below."

but Wing Chun Kuen Kuit also says " he comes on top capture his below."

So, what applied here in the situation in this demo?
and what is the assumption the old chinese saying has and what is the Wing Chun Kuen Kuit refer to?



2, " A had more advantage then B at that moment " will that even happen?
or it is too close but too far in this case as in the demo situation?



So, John, since you are the one who publicly address I am not a figher.....ect.

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1175529&postcount=185



I would love you to share your wisdom in real combat on the above case as in the demo situation.


I hope you can give me, a person who doesnt have the fighting experience according to you, and the WCK public a great lesson here, in real life situation details. not some fuzzy, just do it generalization. instead of What Why When How. details which is expected from the real pro.


however, if you cannot, perhaps it is the time you take back your words or cliam as some one proven in the combat world such as in the above Alan's thread, and not trying to be an expert in WCK where you are not.

That is because you dont even have real life experience as a theory guy like me. hahaha

[Hendrik]

I find statements like this quite funny but that's just me. Take the clip for what it is, sharing ideas with newcomers. Ideas should never be fixed at the beginning because we are not slaves to the art of Wing Chun. Didn't someone famous say that? :rolleyes:

I totally agree with you, Spencer.

Wing Chun Kuen kuit says, " comes accept Goes return, let go thrust forward. "

the Kuen kuit never says

" the first thing he advocates is to turn off line before he has even engaged the attack or any energy on a bridge, which is giving up Centerline.
No Centerline - no WCK."

[k gledhill]

I totally agree with you, Spencer.

Wing Chun Kuen kuit says, " comes accept Goes return, let go thrust forward. "

the Kuen kuit never says

" the first thing he advocates is to turn off line before he has even engaged the attack or any energy on a bridge, which is giving up Centerline.
No Centerline - no WCK."

Turning is a contentious issue in VT.

[Hendrik]

Turning is a contentious issue in VT.


it is not contentious because Turning has its place.

it is contentious only if one doesnt know when to turn when not to turn.

and that get into the " What, When, Why, How " details. If that is clear.
WCK says only " come accept, goes return, let go trust forward." it doesnt limit one to a certain way.

in fact, lots of today's so called center line facing concept is more SPM, BM, White CRane then WCK. Some WCK has evolved toward that direction.
and this evolution changes the body structure of certain lineages because the strategy or tacting needs the physical to implement.



in contrast to the old WCK of "come accept, goes return, let go trust forward" as describe in the following and become a head on SPM BM type of strategy.


-------------------

她採取道家「避實撃虛」後發先至。之陰柔路線。而不是少林「一力伏十會」力大 打力小快勝慢 。之陽剛路線。
WCK using the daoist's "avoid the strong point attack the weak spot start later but arrive first" , soft liner principle. Instead of the shaolin's " strong power subdue every technics. Stronger and faster win", hard liner principle.


所謂「避實擊虛」就是如常山之蛇。撃其頭則尾應。撃尾則頭應。撃腹則頭尾應。也因為如此。註定 了詠春拳「借 力打力。近身貼纒。善發寸勁」。
Avoid strong point attack weak spot can be analogy as the snake . When it was attacked on the head, it avoids the head attack and counter with its tail. When it was attacked on the tail. It avoids the tail attact and counter with its tail. When it was attacked on the stomach. It avoids the stomach and counter with both the head and tail. WCK is using "borrow force to destroy force, close body stick reeling, inch power" to realize the principle of avoid strong point attack weak spot.
------------------------------



And to implement , Avoid Strong point attack weak spot, snake stratergy, turning is in avoidable.



IMHO,

Real life depend on ----- relative Force Handling, momentum handling, dependable strategy. and Force Handling, momentum handling depend on physical body development.

there is no one rule fit all and mastering means know the basic skills needed and knows when to use what.

[k gledhill]

it is not contentious because Turning has its place.

it is contentious only if one doesnt know when to turn when not to turn.

and that get into the " What, When, Why, How " details. If that is clear.
WCK says only " come accept, goes return, let go trust forward." it doesnt limit one to a certain way.

in fact, lots of today's so called center line facing concept is more SPM, BM, White CRane then WCK. Some WCK has evolved toward that direction.
and this evolution changes the body structure of certain lineages because the strategy or tacting needs the physical to implement.



instead of the old WCK of "come accept, goes return, let go trust forward"

-------------------

她採取道家「避實撃虛」後發先至。之陰柔路線。而不是少林「一力伏十會」力大 打力小快勝慢 。之陽剛路線。
WCK using the daoist's "avoid the strong point attack the weak spot start later but arrive first" , soft liner principle. Instead of the shaolin's " strong power subdue every technics. Stronger and faster win", hard liner principle.


所謂「避實擊虛」就是如常山之蛇。撃其頭則尾應。撃尾則頭應。撃腹則頭尾應。也因為如此。註定 了詠春拳「借 力打力。近身貼纒。善發寸勁」。
Avoid strong point attack weak spot can be analogy as the snake . When it was attacked on the head, it avoids the head attack and counter with its tail. When it was attacked on the tail. It avoids the tail attact and counter with its tail. When it was attacked on the stomach. It avoids the stomach and counter with both the head and tail. WCK is using "borrow force to destroy force, close body stick reeling, inch power" to realize the principle of avoid strong point attack weak spot.
------------------------------

and become a head on type of strategy.




IMHO,

Real life depend on ----- relative Force Handling, momentum handling, dependable strategy. and Force Handling, momentum handling depend on physical body development.

there is no one rule fit all.


We turn for a simple reason.....:)

[Hendrik]

We turn for a simple reason.....:)

what reason?

[Vajramusti]

Wow 21 replies on an unexceptional video.

The popcorn gallery is munching overtime.

[JPinAZ]

I find statements like this quite funny but that's just me. Take the clip for what it is, sharing ideas with newcomers. Ideas should never be fixed at the beginning because we are not slaves to the art of Wing Chun. Didn't someone famous say that? :rolleyes:

Haha, why is that funny? He advocates giving up his position before even making contact - that is giving up both self centerline and A-to-B centerline needlessly (not to mentions space and timing). Without even a bridge or contact, how does he know he can't just deal with the energy on the original centerline?

If this is an idea he shares with new comers, then IMO he is may be starting them off on a bad foot. Wing chun is about efficiency and economy of motion. How can you have those things when you start moving around before contact is even made (not to mention giving up space and any self reference point)

Regarding the last bit of your post about being slaves to the art, not really sure what that has to do with anything I wrote (?)


Lol, because getting out of the way is always such a bad idea!

Haha, I never said getting out of the way was bad. Sure there are times we have to move, but advocating 'getting out of the way' by running from the attack before even trying to engage it only gives up space, centerline and gives the opponent more time to react to your shift.


FWIW he changes the centreline by turning (others call it shifting) he doesn't give up the centreline at any point, he actually takes control of it. Draw a line connecting the jic seen of them both and then play the clip through following that line and look again to see who has control of it

Maybe we have 2 very different ideas on what centerline is.

To me, Centerline, first and foremost is about maintaining your own upright position/COG, or 'self centerline'. By shifting without even having made contact he is giving this up. Secondly, centerline is about a line between A point and B point. You can't have both points moving and have any consistant centerline between anything.

Besides, why move if you don't have too? IMO he doesn't 'change the line' when he moves before contact, he moves off of it and gives it up by giving up is reference point. He does very little to change the attacker's position, line of attack or COG when he does this - all he does is give all of his up by shifting 'off the line'.
While I have my dissagreements with some of what he does, alan orrs latest video 2 threads (clips #6 and #7) do a fair job of describing this and why you shouldn't and don't need to shift

Now, I have no problem with having to change the line if you are losing space, facing and/or structure! I'm just saying that to do it prior to any contact means you haven't even made an attempt to deal with what is coming at you on the A-to-B Centerline.

[desertwingchun2]

Wow 21 replies on an unexceptional video.

The popcorn gallery is munching overtime.

Pass the soda!!

[GlennR]

Wow 21 replies on an unexceptional video.

The popcorn gallery is munching overtime.

With you there Joy.... though im hardly one to criticise long winded rants ;)

I turned it of after the 1st technique as well as did one of the other posters as well.

At the end of the day what did he achieve? He had turned of centre, was not controlling the limb and was out of range to strike.

It was trading in my eyes

[GlennR]

I would love you to share your wisdom in real combat on the above case as in the demo situation.


I hope you can give me, a person who doesnt have the fighting experience according to you, and the WCK public a great lesson here, in real life situation details. not some fuzzy, just do it generalization. instead of What Why When How. details which is expected from the real pro.


however, if you cannot, perhaps it is the time you take back your words or cliam as some one proven in the combat world such as in the above Alan's thread, and not trying to be an expert in WCK where you are not.

That is because you dont even have real life experience as a theory guy like me. hahaha

[/QUOTE]

Youre not a fighter. You might have been decades ago in some Karate matches but that doesnt change what you are now.

Some guy sitting in his house not training, not teaching and preaching like the messiah

And to critcise YKW who from what i understand does everything you dont do (ie fight, train and spar) beggers belief.

Do i need to ask you those questions again??

[Hendrik]

Youre not a fighter. You might have been decades ago in some Karate matches but that doesnt change what you are now.

Some guy sitting in his house not training, not teaching and preaching like the messiah

And to critcise YKW who from what i understand does everything you dont do (ie fight, train and spar) beggers belief.

Do i need to ask you those questions again??[/QUOTE]



ok, great!

this is another top figther,

Since you are sooo great why dont you answer that same questions I have post. let us who is not a figher according to you learn your great wisdom and superiority?

Go a head please!!!



But if you and YKW cannot give a WING CHUN satisfaction answer. then may be you need to learn to not post here for trolling. hahahaha


Fun time. and I am waiting.

[YouKnowWho]

but Wing Chun Kuen Kuit also says " he comes on top capture his below."

At 1.20 in that clip, A's elbow has passed B's forearm. A's elbow dropping will have a lot of power. It cannot be stopped by just B's fore-arm Bong Shou.

[Hendrik]

At 1.20 in that clip, A's elbow has passed B's forearm. A's elbow dropping will have a lot of power. It cannot be stopped by just B's fore-arm Bong Shou.

John,

please answer my full question.

if you cant answer it then you dont know and if you dont know you cant coach fighter. because you have no experience. see, WCK is not Shuai Chiao. that simple, isnt it?

here i give you the benifit of doutb on your big claim, if you screw it than it is not my issue.

[GlennR]

ok, great!

this is another top figther,

Since you are sooo great why dont you answer that same questions I have post. let us who is not a figher according to you learn your great wisdom and superiority?

Go a head please!!!



But if you and YKW cannot give a WING CHUN satisfaction answer. then may be you need to learn to not post here for trolling. hahahaha


Fun time. and I am waiting


Id engage my snake engine, which manifested in my emei region, then let my 5
layers take control which allowed the ghosts of 1850 WC to be as one with my yik kam fists of death.

Oh sorry... that would be you!

Watch this clown http://vimeo.com/44004216 particularly around 18.30 and 27.30 that might give you and insight how to actually train for and use WC in a fight

[desertwingchun2]

Id engage my snake engine, which manifested in my emei region, then let my 5
layers take control which allowed the ghosts of 1850 WC to be as one with my yik kam fists of death.


Post of the year!! :D:D:D:D

[desertwingchun2]

Now, I have no problem with having to change the line if you are losing space, facing and/or structure! I'm just saying that to do it prior to any contact means you haven't even made an attempt to deal with what is coming at you on the A-to-B Centerline.

If one can sidestep, shift. duck, fade, etc prior to contact, and attack successfully, then the " what is coming at you on the A-to-B Centerline" has been dealt with already.

This portion of your post sounds as if you wish to always create a bridge.

Just my $.02.

Disregard if that was not the intended meaning.

Now pass me the gummy bears.

[Hendrik]

so, both YKW and GlennR do not have the answer about the demo clip?

if so, they better go to learn from the sifu in the video.

[JPinAZ]

If one can sidestep, shift. duck, fade, etc prior to contact, and attack successfully, then the " what is coming at you on the A-to-B Centerline" has been dealt with already.

One can do all sorts of things to deal with an attack. most of what you listed is what I did in boxing all the time.
Question is, are you breaking WCK principles to do it or not? If you dodge, duck, sidestep, etc without even attempting to deal with the attack on CL, then you are breaking WCK's most primary and basic concept and IMO not really doing WCK, even if you happen to use a bong sau shaped technique while you do it ;)


This portion of your post sounds as if you wish to always create a bridge.

Just my $.02.

Disregard if that was not the intended meaning.

Now pass me the gummy bears.

Nope, not wishing to bridge at all (unles I am implying a specific strategy that calls for it in rare cases).
My main goal is occupy space, punch'em in the face :) If a bridge happens along the way, then I deal with it. Or if I have to adjust due to gate coverage, I do it. But my main goal is to do this on the A-B Centerline first without compramising my position or space & structure. If I can no longer do that, then I am forced to move.

(and I do appreciate the disregard comment and giving me the courtesy of posibbly misunderstanding me!)

[JPinAZ]

if you cant answer it then you dont know and if you dont know you cant coach fighter. because you have no experience. see, WCK is not Shuai Chiao. that simple, isnt it?

In the end, WCK is about physics and undstanding the geometry and structures of human body. John answered the question in regards to both very well IMO. He may not be a WCK practitioner, but it's not that complicated of a question when you break it down in these regards.

Only those that want to appear superior to others make it more complicated than it needs to be ;) I'll take his view over yours any day!

[Hendrik]

In the end, WCK is about physics and undstanding the geometry and structures of human body. John answered the question in regards to both very well IMO. He may not be a WCK practitioner, but it's not that complicated of a question when you break it down in these regards.

Only those that want to appear superior to others make it more complicated than it needs to be ;) I'll take his view over yours any day!


Ok,

you agree with John and you have not said the magic sentence, or the reasons. why the demo work or why not work. if one cant see what it is clearly one cannot handle it smoothly and firmly. that is the bottom line.

so , another one who needs to go and learn WCK from the sifu in the demo clip.

hahaha

the number really add up.


you see, it is always easy to critic this and that in a demo. the issue here is one doesnt even know why it works or why it doesnt work. but all the generalization of Physics, structure, human body..... ect that just shows in experience. is this the way of a pro combat figher?


experience WCner will tell you, if it is going to work or not directly. because WCner deal with within 1 inch of pre and post contact and within of 1 sec pre and post contact.
Not so much mumbo jumbo generalization and alibi. theories. but no decision. works or not works.


get Alan Or in he will tell you. also, sorry to tell you all, both GM Ip Chun and Ip Chin might not be the best, but they are not fool either, when Ip Chin helping out his father teaching classes.

hahaha.

[Hendrik]

ok. enough kids childist play.

Does the demo works or not works? is John right or missed the point? What is the most critical point here? since one cannot take care of 100000000000000 in real combat. what is that button which makes it works or not works?

any one wants to share?

[YouKnowWho]

so, both YKW and GlennR do not have the answer about the demo clip?

The only comment that I have for this clip is at 1.20, I don't like to:

- respond to my opponent's punch.
- put my arm under my opponent's arm.
- let my opponent's elbow to pass my forearm.

If you show me your XingYi clip, I'll answer your other questions.

[Hendrik]

The only comment that I have for this clip is at 1.20, I don't like to:

- respond to my opponent's punch.
- put my arm under my opponent's arm.
- let my opponent's elbow to pass my forearm.

If you show me your XingYi clip, I'll answer your other questions.


hahaha,

your answer is always expected.

your answers shows you dont know WCK. that is forsure.

so I am not looking for further answer.



See if Glenn has any WCK answer. hahaha. Glenn where are you? I am waiting.

[GlennR]

you agree with John and you have not said the magic sentence, or the reasons. why the demo work or why not work. if one cant see what it is clearly one cannot handle it smoothly and firmly. that is the bottom line.

There is no "magic" just hard sparring to implement what you have learnt, something you arent familiar with


so , another one who needs to go and learn WCK from the sifu in the demo clip.
hahaha

the number really add up.


And in your case the number adds up to zero
Zero sparring
Zero training
Zero credibility with anyone who puts in the hard yards to become reasonably combat proficient.


you see, it is always easy to critic this and that in a demo. the issue here is one doesnt even know why it works or why it doesnt work. but all the generalization of Physics, structure, human body..... ect that just shows in experience. is this the way of a pro combat figher?

How would you know? You practice on yourself in your lounge room?



experience WCner will tell you, if it is going to work or not directly. because WCner deal with within 1 inch of pre and post contact and within of 1 sec pre and post contact.
Not so much mumbo jumbo generalization and alibi. theories. but no decision. works or not works.


It just dribbles out of you doesnt it?


get Alan Or in he will tell you. also, sorry to tell you all, both GM Ip Chun and Ip Chin might not be the best, but they are not fool either, when Ip Chin helping out his father teaching classes.

Here we go again. Looking for help from people you dont even know.

I guess youll cry to Gene again when it doesnt go your way again

Incidentally, i found this footage of you after you last tantrum when it all got a bit hard for you

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5tWT6I1GvY

Poor baby

[Hendrik]

There is no "magic" just hard sparring to implement what you have learnt, something you arent familiar with



And in your case the number adds up to zero
Zero sparring
Zero training
Zero credibility with anyone who puts in the hard yards to become reasonably combat proficient.



How would you know? You practice on yourself in your lounge room?




It just dribbles out of you doesnt it?



Here we go again. Looking for help from people you dont even know.

I guess youll cry to Gene again when it doesnt go your way again

Incidentally, i found this footage of you after you last tantrum when it all got a bit hard for you

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5tWT6I1GvY

Poor baby



hahaha, you can say anything but you dont know WCK. Go learn from the sifu in the Demo clip.

[LoneTiger108]

Reading through yesterdays dribble is an eye opener for anyone who has an ounce of common sense.

The 'so-called' fighters can not answer simple questions in the Wing Chun manner Hendrik requested, although they expect him to share clips of himself too when he has already made his point clear by asking the questions!! A non-fighter silences the fighters with intelligence. Kinda sounds more like Ip Man than all this ego-infested fight-club mentality that is plaguing the system.

I aint a fighter either so it's refereshing to see.

A glorious show of bollox that in itself deserves some level of respect imho! :D :D :D

[GlennR]

hahaha, you can say anything but you dont know WCK. Go learn from the sifu in the Demo clip.

I know plenty because i use it in practice.
Real practice.

Its not a lot of mindless jargon sprouted by some inept clown in his loungeroom somewhere in Lala land?

Unlike yourself.

What I do for WC is train with fighters, people willing to exchange ideas, hard work and leave their egos at the door ego in the pursuit of getting better at what they do.
Be it WC, boxing, MT......... whatever they choose.
I put my WC out there.... you dont and never will

WC is a self defense system not your personal vehicle to espouse your (lack of) knowledge and inflate your ego.

[LoneTiger108]

I know plenty because i use it in practice.
Real practice.

So I don't get it Glenn??!

Why can't you answer Hendriks question? :confused: Or better still, put up a clip of yourself (it will only take 5mins to film lol!) that explains your point of view as to why Sifu Leo is wrong to do what he does compared with what you do?

[GlennR]

So I don't get it Glenn??!

Why can't you answer Hendriks question? :confused: Or better still, put up a clip of yourself (it will only take 5mins to film lol!) that explains your point of view as to why Sifu Leo is wrong to do what he does compared with what you do?

Spencer, ive never asked anyone for a video and wont. If we cant explain ourselves with words was the forum a waste of time before youtube etc?

So im not going down the "show me a video" line.

You didnt understand my comments or you didnt agree with them??

[imperialtaichi]

My main goal is occupy space, punch'em in the face :) If a bridge happens along the way, then I deal with it. Or if I have to adjust due to gate coverage, I do it. But my main goal is to do this on the A-B Centerline first without compramising my position or space & structure. If I can no longer do that, then I am forced to move.

I like it!

(not related to video)

In KL22, our interpretation of "Pin Sun" or "Side Body" is NOT for us to turn on our side, but to turn the opponent on his side, while we face him square on.

[GlennR]

The 'so-called' fighters can not answer simple questions in the Wing Chun manner Hendrik requested, although they expect him to share clips of himself too when he has already made his point clear by asking the questions!! A non-fighter silences the fighters with intelligence. Kinda sounds more like Ip Man than all this ego-infested fight-club mentality that is plaguing the system.

Just when i think you may have a clue you jump on the loco wagon, you really think Hendrik sounds like IM?
And youd know how?
The movie?
Comic books perhaps?
Your imaginary world of flying Kung Fu heroes perhaps?


I aint a fighter either so it's refereshing to see.


Really? Who would have thought


A glorious show of bollox that in itself deserves some level of respect imho! :D :D :D

Great, lets celebrate and wave some flags!

[GlennR]

I like it!

I just noticed JapinAz's post from your reply.
Yep, that will do me.

[wingchunIan]

Question is, are you breaking WCK principles to do it or not? If you dodge, duck, sidestep, etc without even attempting to deal with the attack on CL, then you are breaking WCK's most primary and basic concept and IMO not really doing WCK, even if you happen to use a bong sau shaped technique while you do it ;)
Which "most basic and primary concept" would that be then? stand there and get punched in the face? get over run by a blitz? trade? fight strength with strength?
I prefer the idea of not using force against force. Turning creates angles to attack along, its a little principle called centreline advantage and also gets you away from the one place you don't want to be - the focal point of the initial attack. If you have been taught how to turn correctly then you can maintain posture, balance etc as you turn.
The clip isn't the best illustration of how to turn correctly IMO as there are a number of things that I would pick up even novice students on, and I don't like the idea of trying to push /lift with the bong sau that way but the principle of get out of the way first before anything else is a sound one that has been tried and tested many many times by many many people (including by myself) in many different martial arts. If you can go straight down the original centre line unimpeded then great (although you still need to move forward to vacate the original target point) but IMO this is why we see so many lame clips of wing chun students chain punching furiously until they KO'd or simply getting sparked by a big looping shot. Wing Chun is about controlling the centre line, if I can move it in such as a way that it works to my advantage then that is the highest level of control. If I keep moving and angling so that the opponent is never on the centre line how can he ever take control of it.

[Hendrik]

I know plenty because i use it in practice.
Real practice.

Its not a lot of mindless jargon sprouted by some inept clown in his loungeroom somewhere in Lala land?

Unlike yourself.

What I do for WC is train with fighters, people willing to exchange ideas, hard work and leave their egos at the door ego in the pursuit of getting better at what they do.
Be it WC, boxing, MT......... whatever they choose.
I put my WC out there.... you dont and never will

WC is a self defense system not your personal vehicle to espouse your (lack of) knowledge and inflate your ego.



You can claim anything you love.
But evidentially, you don't know WCK and how can you used WCK? Simple question you can't even answer.

It is like those Bruce Lee movie fans. They can claim they get together with fighters to spar...ect like in the movies. But have never take a single JKD lesson from JKD Guru Inosanto. Or other jkd teachers. Sure they are correct according to movies and thier logic. But it is JKD?

This is called self proclaim people. And it happen everywhere in the world.

[Hendrik]

Reading through yesterdays dribble is an eye opener for anyone who has an ounce of common sense.

The 'so-called' fighters can not answer simple questions in the Wing Chun manner Hendrik requested, although they expect him to share clips of himself too when he has already made his point clear by asking the questions!! A non-fighter silences the fighters with intelligence. Kinda sounds more like Ip Man than all this ego-infested fight-club mentality that is plaguing the system.

I aint a fighter either so it's refereshing to see.

A glorious show of bollox that in itself deserves some level of respect imho! :D :D :D


This is a great Ip Man clip . it said it all for those who knows cantonese. That simple. In the real life action, no excuse no theory no name dropping, can one do it with decisiveness and confident.

So, how to be decisive and confident? One needs to know what one is doing very very clearly to the very details , and take that clean shot. Just once.

Those who cannot see it cearly will not be able to do a clean shot.

I am not a fighter, but I love clean shot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7w5bnV6kpjQ

[Hendrik]

So I don't get it Glenn??!

Why can't you answer Hendriks question? :confused: Or better still, put up a clip of yourself (it will only take 5mins to film lol!) that explains your point of view as to why Sifu Leo is wrong to do what he does compared with what you do?

Spence,

This is just such a simple answer for wcner. If one is doing WCK.

One can even uses the 1970 wing Chun movies saying to answer this.

Obviously, these so called WCK fighters doesn't know WCK and not even watching movies. Thus, they have no idea what and why with wck even in the 70s movies standard. Hahaha.

What to say?

They cannot answer because they are not sure and in experience in combat WCK for real. That simple. How could that be and allowed in a fighter's world?

Just hope these fighters go watch WCK movies and really learn WCK before claim to be A WCner. To be a WCK fighter, the standard is much higher then that .

[LoneTiger108]

Spencer, ive never asked anyone for a video and wont. If we cant explain ourselves with words was the forum a waste of time before youtube etc?

So im not going down the "show me a video" line.

You didnt understand my comments or you didnt agree with them??

I didn't see you answer Hendriks questions? That's all I was saying... :confused:

And FWIW my comparison with Hendrik and Ip Man only goes as far as attempting to respond to unintelligent questions and derogotory remarks with intelligent responses.

This, as far as I know, is commonly understood by Ip Mans closest students as being typical 'martial behaviour' which he personified on a daily basis over a very very long time!! Only stories, I know, but good ones all the same...

No flag waving required lol! :D

[LoneTiger108]

Those who cannot see it cearly will not be able to do a clean shot.

I am not a fighter, but I love clean shot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7w5bnV6kpjQ

Ah! "Grandmasters"

Yoiu know what I dislike about these modern Ip Man movies?? Everybody who is currwntly out there now teaching Wing Chun to the masses (commercial businesses) seem to benefit over the short term because it generates interest.

But the guys like my own Sifu, who have rarely advertised and only operate non-profit or charitable schools that put back into their communites get nothing and end up in their little council flats struggling to feed themselves sometimes. And he has been teaching for over 30 years.

I'm lucky, or so he says, because I have another 'trade' to make a living but still that is little compfort when you constantly hear/see/read such dribble about the system you care so much about.

Sorry my rant is over now so let's move on!! :)

[Hendrik]

Which "most basic and primary concept" would that be then? stand there and get punched in the face? get over run by a blitz? trade? fight strength with strength?
I prefer the idea of not using force against force. Turning creates angles to attack along, its a little principle called centreline advantage and also gets you away from the one place you don't want to be - the focal point of the initial attack. If you have been taught how to turn correctly then you can maintain posture, balance etc as you turn.
The clip isn't the best illustration of how to turn correctly IMO as there are a number of things that I would pick up even novice students on, and I don't like the idea of trying to push /lift with the bong sau that way but the principle of get out of the way first before anything else is a sound one that has been tried and tested many many times by many many people (including by myself) in many different martial arts. If you can go straight down the original centre line unimpeded then great (although you still need to move forward to vacate the original target point) but IMO this is why we see so many lame clips of wing chun students chain punching furiously until they KO'd or simply getting sparked by a big looping shot. Wing Chun is about controlling the centre line, if I can move it in such as a way that it works to my advantage then that is the highest level of control. If I keep moving and angling so that the opponent is never on the centre line how can he ever take control of it.



Many have forgotten the following WCK .


詠春拳訣說：來留去送。以靜制動。上來下取。脫手直衝。柔中含剛。剛中而柔。
Wing Chun writing said : come accept goes return. Using non motion to handle motion, got attack on the top handle the bottom, let go thrust forward. Within soft contain hard, within hard turn into soft.


以上六句。描述了她採取道家「避實撃虛」後發先至。之陰柔路線。而不是少林「一力伏十會」力大 打力小快勝慢 。之陽剛路線。
The above six stanzas described WCK using the daoist's "avoid the strong point attack the weak spot start later but arrive first" , soft liner principle. Instead of the shaolin's " strong power subdue every technics. Stronger and faster win", hard liner principle.


所謂「避實擊虛」就是如常山之蛇。撃其頭則尾應。撃尾則頭應。撃腹則頭尾應。也因為如此。註定 了詠春拳「借 力打力。近身貼纒。善發寸勁」。
Avoid strong point attack weak spot can be analogy as the snake . When it was attacked on the head, it avoids the head attack and counter with its tail. When it was attacked on the tail. It avoids the tail attact and counter with its tail. When it was attacked on the stomach. It avoids the stomach and counter with both the head and tail. WCK is using "borrow force to destroy force, close body stick reeling, inch power" to realize the principle of avoid strong point attack weak spot.

[Hendrik]

Ah! "Grandmasters"

Yoiu know what I dislike about these modern Ip Man movies?? Everybody who is currwntly out there now teaching Wing Chun to the masses (commercial businesses) seem to benefit over the short term because it generates interest.

But the guys like my own Sifu, who have rarely advertised and only operate non-profit or charitable schools that put back into their communites get nothing and end up in their little council flats struggling to feed themselves sometimes. And he has been teaching for over 30 years.

I'm lucky, or so he says, because I have another 'trade' to make a living but still that is little compfort when you constantly hear/see/read such dribble about the system you care so much about.

Sorry my rant is over now so let's move on!! :)

Spencer,

I agree with you.

IMHO,
Movie is for getting hi. Real Kung fu is getting low and being lonely for decades, investigating and keep refining. Until one sees with a pair of clear eyes. Then , only then, clean shot can be done.

[k gledhill]

Many have forgotten the following WCK .


詠春拳訣說：來留去送。以靜制動。上來下取。脫手直衝。柔中含剛。剛中而柔。
Wing Chun writing said : come accept goes return. Using non motion to handle motion, got attack on the top handle the bottom, let go thrust forward. Within soft contain hard, within hard turn into soft.


以上六句。描述了她採取道家「避實撃虛」後發先至。之陰柔路線。而不是少林「一力伏十會」力大 打力小快勝慢 。之陽剛路線。
The above six stanzas described WCK using the daoist's "avoid the strong point attack the weak spot start later but arrive first" , soft liner principle. Instead of the shaolin's " strong power subdue every technics. Stronger and faster win", hard liner principle.


所謂「避實擊虛」就是如常山之蛇。撃其頭則尾應。撃尾則頭應。撃腹則頭尾應。也因為如此。註定 了詠春拳「借 力打力。近身貼纒。善發寸勁」。
Avoid strong point attack weak spot can be analogy as the snake . When it was attacked on the head, it avoids the head attack and counter with its tail. When it was attacked on the tail. It avoids the tail attact and counter with its tail. When it was attacked on the stomach. It avoids the stomach and counter with both the head and tail. WCK is using "borrow force to destroy force, close body stick reeling, inch power" to realize the principle of avoid strong point attack weak spot.

And many havent forgotten ....

[Happy Tiger]

Spencer,

I agree with you.

IMHO,
Movie is for getting hi. Real Kung fu is getting low and being lonely for decades, investigating and keep refining. Until one sees with a pair of clear eyes. Then , only then, clean shot can be done.
So true. If VT gets on the 'Dr. Ozz show' every one can really jack up their prices.
Lone Tiger, I respect your sifu and the attitude of you and your club My sifus also have never been into it for the money and never really made a living at it. They just want to share good Kung Fu. Your right, Hendrik, but I must admit I like the 'high' a good martial arts movie gives, or even a bad one :)
P.S. I'm really getting sick of all the name calling and thread highjacking going on.What grade in school are we all in here anyway? R we teaching our kids to bully each other this way?

[Hendrik]

So true. If VT gets on the 'Dr. Ozz show' every one can really jack up their prices.
Lone Tiger, I respect your sifu and the attitude of you and your club My sifus also have never been into it for the money and never really made a living at it. They just want to share good Kung Fu. Your right, Hendrik, but I must admit I like the 'high' a good martial arts movie gives, or even a bad one :)
P.S. I'm really getting sick of all the name calling and thread highjacking going on.What grade in school are we all in here anyway. R we teaching our kids to bully each other this way?

Like you,
I love to get hi from the Kung fu movies too!

[desertwingchun2]

My main goal is occupy space, punch'em in the face :) If a bridge happens along the way, then I deal with it. Or if I have to adjust due to gate coverage, I do it. But my main goal is to do this on the A-B Centerline first without compramising my position or space & structure.

I think we are on the same page. The only point I will make is, you can occupy space by moving and not giving up centerline or compromising your space or structure. The kuit that would apply is "I dont move until he moves, When he moves I arrive first". And yes I believe this is is WC.

FWIW, my experience doesn't come from any controlled environments. Ask your sihing, they will tell you about this vato. :D hahahaha!!

And for Hand**** this has nothing to do with hard vs hard and everything to do with borrowing energy.

[Happy Tiger]

On the issue of the techniques particularly on the turning. As K Gledhill mentions, turning is a contentious theme. I have a particular facination with turning and shifting and it's consequences/effects in deployment of tools and overall structure. Depending on the amount of shift really changes what the fighter will do and how the opponent will respond. Shift, responds one way, no shift another way. shifting while turning changes everything. I feel many VT houses seem to have quite different views to this. Mixing these views the wrong way can be disasterous.

[Hendrik]

On the issue of the techniques particularly on the turning. As K Gledhill mentions, turning is a contentious theme. I have a particular facination with turning and shifting and it's consequences/effects in deployment of tools and overall structure. Depending on the amount of shift really changes what the fighter will do and how the opponent will respond. Shift, responds one way, no shift another way. shifting while turning changes everything. I feel many VT houses seem to have quite different views to this. Mixing these views the wrong way can be disasterous.

IMHO,

The key of turning or angling is delink. Without delink turning is losing.

With de link turning is let the innertial momentum passed, making use of the opponents momentum to seal him off from himself , because momentum cannot be change in an instant.

When one cannot take a strong face to face in the middle door center line, then, one needs an alternative. So, either one can borrow the opponents force on spot fajin or lead the momentum passed via angling or turning.

If one has no skill in borrow force then lead the momentum passed is needed.

However, all of these delink , borrowing force, Momentum handling..ect need a particular skill handling. These are what I am trying to bring out in the YKT fifth layer.

Back to 1.20 demo.
In the demo of 1.20 there are intereting thing in WCK can be discussed but the critics seem not seeing it.

[JPinAZ]

I like it!

(not related to video)

In KL22, our interpretation of "Pin Sun" or "Side Body" is NOT for us to turn on our side, but to turn the opponent on his side, while we face him square on.

Best position to be in! You have all 4 weapons (both hands/feet) available for attack while the opponent has none for a point in time!

[Hendrik]

isnt it very strange that there is a demo of WCK and all type of opinions.

But, there is no common sense clean cut resolution on does the 1.20 works or not works?


Hello, where are all the Combat mighty fighers? can some one make a solid conclusion on is it works or not working based on one's mighty grandmaster level WCK?

no one will have the time to wait for days , freezing at that moment , for that go or no go decision.

[Shadow_warrior8]

Many have forgotten the following WCK .


詠春拳訣說：來留去送。以靜制動。上來下取。脫手直衝。柔中含剛。剛中而柔。
Wing Chun writing said : come accept goes return. Using non motion to handle motion, got attack on the top handle the bottom, let go thrust forward. Within soft contain hard, within hard turn into soft.


以上六句。描述了她採取道家「避實撃虛」後發先至。之陰柔路線。而不是少林「一力伏十會」力大 打力小快勝慢 。之陽剛路線。
The above six stanzas described WCK using the daoist's "avoid the strong point attack the weak spot start later but arrive first" , soft liner principle. Instead of the shaolin's " strong power subdue every technics. Stronger and faster win", hard liner principle.


所謂「避實擊虛」就是如常山之蛇。撃其頭則尾應。撃尾則頭應。撃腹則頭尾應。也因為如此。註定 了詠春拳「借 力打力。近身貼纒。善發寸勁」。
Avoid strong point attack weak spot can be analogy as the snake . When it was attacked on the head, it avoids the head attack and counter with its tail. When it was attacked on the tail. It avoids the tail attact and counter with its tail. When it was attacked on the stomach. It avoids the stomach and counter with both the head and tail. WCK is using "borrow force to destroy force, close body stick reeling, inch power" to realize the principle of avoid strong point attack weak spot.

thank you senior for sharing this....

[desertwingchun2]

Is this the question you would like people to answer?



.... does the 1.20 works or not works?


If so why troll with a comment like below? BTW, you are the only one claiming to be an inheritor/developer of a WC system.


Hello, where are all the Combat mighty fighers? can some one make a solid conclusion on is it works or not working based on one's mighty grandmaster level WCK?

Is this you answering your own question?


no one will have the time to wait for days , freezing at that moment , for that go or no go decision.

Would you like to read my reply?

[Hendrik]

thank you senior for sharing this....

you are welcome!

[YouKnowWho]

.... does the 1.20 works or not works?
We should not look at 1.20 as simple as just you punch me and I block. It can be much more than that.

The following sequence could happen after that initial contact:

- A right hand punches B.
- B blocks A's punch with left Bong Shou.
- A's momentum keeps moving and A's right elbow passes B's left fore-arm (this is exactly what A wants. This is also the major mistake that B makes).
- A drops his right elbow, move his right arm under and behind B's left shoulder (disable B's left arm).
- A steps in his left foot.
- A's left palm strikes on B's right elbow joint and wrap B's right arm (disable B's right arm).
- A's momentum keeps moving foreward.
- A's right leg blocks B's right legs (disable B's legs).
- A then runs B down to the ground.

Please notice that, A controls B's left arm, B's right arm, B's legs are all in a linear sequence one after another when A's body moving forward. This will reduce A's risk to the minimum when he enters - a perfect entering.

The wole sequence could happen just because B allows A's elbow to pass B's fore-arm at 1.20. B has ignored that A can bend his arm on his elbow joint. Since A's elbow dropping take advantage on the gravity. It's hard for B to stop it. After that A has his initial advantage and put B in a complete defensive mode.

[Hendrik]

We should not look at 1.20 as simple as just you punch me and I block. It can be much more that that.

The following sequence could happen after that initial contact:

- A right hand punches B.
- B blocks A's punch with left Bong Shou.
- A's momentum keeps moving and A's right elbow passes B's left fore-arm (this is exactly what A wants. This is also the major mistake that B makes).
- A drop his right elbow, move his right arm under and behind B's left shoulder (disable B's left arm).
- A steps in his left foot.
- A's left palm strikes on B's right elbow joint and wrap B's right arm (disable B's right arm).
- A's momentum keeps moving foreward.
- A's right leg blocks B's right legs (disable B's legs).
- A then runs B down to the ground.

Please notice that, A controls B's left arm, B's right arm, B's legs are all in a linear sequence one after another when A's body moving forward. This will reduce A's risk to the minimum when he enters - a perfect entering.

The wole sequence could happen just because B allows A's elbow to pass B's fore-arm at 1.20.

how many wcners here agree with this?

[Happy Tiger]

isnt it very strange that there is a demo of WCK and all type of opinions.

But, there is no common sense clean cut resolution on does the 1.20 works or not works?


Hello, where are all the Combat mighty fighers? can some one make a solid conclusion on is it works or not working based on one's mighty grandmaster level WCK?

no one will have the time to wait for days , freezing at that moment , for that go or no go decision.
I'll bite. From Chum Kiu turn(chor ma) and lan sau?...oh yeah and HIT !

[wingchunIan]

how many wcners here agree with this?

Personally I think its this type of thing that is wrong with most martial arts discussions like this. Yes the assailant could suddenly do anything but the reality is that firstly so can the defender and secondly the scenarios of what the attacker will do rely on him either knowing in advance what the defender will do or realising instantly what has happened and reacting to it.
If someone posted a question of what would you do in defence against a right cross (or something similar) and anyone posted something like the above everyone would be saying how unrealistic it is because its so complex, so many steps, the opponent isn't just going to stand there and let you do it etc

[GlennR]

isnt it very strange that there is a demo of WCK and all type of opinions.

No


But, there is no common sense clean cut resolution on does the 1.20 works or not works?

Define "works", tell me what you think it should be doing and ill tell you



Hello, where are all the Combat mighty fighers? can some one make a solid conclusion on is it works or not working based on one's mighty grandmaster level WCK?


Probably out training. You know, sweat, bruises, discipline and so on.

Hows that lounge room going?



no one will have the time to wait for days , freezing at that moment , for that go or no go decision.

Sure you do, put the TV on, turn on the heater... put your feet up
Careful not to raise a sweat there

[GlennR]

Personally I think its this type of thing that is wrong with most martial arts discussions like this. Yes the assailant could suddenly do anything but the reality is that firstly so can the defender and secondly the scenarios of what the attacker will do rely on him either knowing in advance what the defender will do or realising instantly what has happened and reacting to it.
If someone posted a question of what would you do in defence against a right cross (or something similar) and anyone posted something like the above everyone would be saying how unrealistic it is because its so complex, so many steps, the opponent isn't just going to stand there and let you do it etc

Oh ignore him.
He's trolling, wanting a response from one of us "fighters" so he can ridicule whatever comment we/i make probably throwing in terms like "5layer", "snake engine", "delinking" blah blah blah.

Anyone who practises know that, at best, thats a bit of a drill and that theres a myriad of things you could do there.

[Hendrik]

I'll bite. From Chum Kiu turn(chor ma) and lan sau?...oh yeah and HIT !

Great!

Now we are talking WCK atleast.

[Hendrik]

Personally I think its this type of thing that is wrong with most martial arts discussions like this.

Yes the assailant could suddenly do anything but the reality is that firstly so can the defender and secondly the scenarios of what the attacker will do rely on him either knowing in advance what the defender will do or realising instantly what has happened and reacting to it.

If someone posted a question of what would you do in defence against a right cross (or something similar) and anyone posted something like the above everyone would be saying how unrealistic it is because its so complex, so many steps, the opponent isn't just going to stand there and let you do it etc


I agree with you on this.

I question the ability to read the situation of 1.20. to know what is the situation, before perscribe the recipe of A do this and this and this and this.....ect.

[Hendrik]

Oh ignore him.
He's trolling, wanting a response from one of us "fighters" so he can ridicule whatever comment we/i make probably throwing in terms like "5layer", "snake engine", "delinking" blah blah blah.

Anyone who practises know that, at best, thats a bit of a drill and that theres a myriad of things you could do there.


are you are fighter? where is your solution of the 1.20?

[JPinAZ]

how many wcners here agree with this?

doesn't even take a WCner to agree with it - John's logic is sound regardless of the art because it's based on physics, human anatamy and reality. And that's your problem, you can't see past your ignorant nose to see what is simple and right in front of you.

[Hendrik]

doesn't even take a WCner to agree with it - John's logic is sound regardless of the art because it's based on physics, human anatamy and reality. And that's your problem, you can't see past your ignorant nose to see what is simple and right in front of you.


are you a wing chuner?

John doesnt even know it is not a block.

so, the rest is in material. Sorry.


seriously, WCK is in trouble if these so called WC fighers are guessing instead of recognized the basic straight out.

Leo makes a mistake in Naming in his Demo, as most of WCners today, it is not a Bong Sau,
but his technic is correct. it is Wing Chun and it is Gm Ip Man's teaching. that is certain.

[Hendrik]

people talk about center line, center line , center line,

now, at slanding body or chuck san what is consider as center line?

[GlennR]

are you are fighter? where is your solution of the 1.20?

You tell me what its supposed to achieve and ill tell you if it works or not.

You readd my thoughts on it earlier, so come on.

Tell us all what you think he is trying to achieve???

[Hendrik]

You tell me what its supposed to achieve and ill tell you if it works or not.

You readd my thoughts on it earlier, so come on.

Tell us all what you think he is trying to achieve???



i have told you already, that is authentic Gm Ip Man Wing Chun and it works. it is John doesnt know what is going on. and you people following him around instead of trusting Gm Ip Man's teaching.

Dont you from GM Ip Man lieange? Dont you suppose to know these basic? not to mention, since you are a FiGHTER dont you need to experience the basic of your lineage?


see, I give credit where credit belongs, if it works I say it works. if it is a fancy demo, I say it is fancy demo.

[GlennR]

i have told you already, that is authentic Gm Ip Man Wing Chun and it works. it is John doesnt know what is going on. and you people following him around instead of trusting Gm Ip Man's teaching.

Cant you read?
Youve read my take on the technique, YOU tell me what he is trying to achieve and ill comment on that.


Dont you from GM Ip Man lieange? Dont you suppose to know these basic? not to mention, since you are a FiGHTER dont you need to experience the basic of your lineage?

IM lineage and mainland lineage actually. But then i dont run around obsessed with lineage , 1850's , sitting in my lounge room and preaching do i.


see, I give credit where credit belongs, if it works I say it works. if it is a fancy demo, I say it is fancy demo.

So you think that works? You think that is the best WC option at the given time?

[Hendrik]

Cant you read?
Youve read my take on the technique, YOU tell me what he is trying to achieve and ill comment on that.



IM lineage and mainland lineage actually. But then i dont run around obsessed with lineage , 1850's , sitting in my lounge room and preaching do i.



So you think that works? You think that is the best WC option at the given time?




this is a serious quality issue here on WCK, when one doesnt recognize one's own lineage art and need a Shuai Jia guy to lead one going round and round with all kind of guessing work, and needs those from other lineage to tell one ---" that is your family basic."

sorry to say, even if you want to preach you need to know what you are studying first.

So, am I think that works? if you cannot make that judgment, can you be a WCner?

[GlennR]

this is a serious quality issue here on WCK, when one doesnt recognize one's own lineage art and need a Shuai Jia guy to lead one going round and round with all kind of guessing work, and needs those from other lineage to tell one ---" that is your family basic."

sorry to say, even if you want to preach you need to know what you are studying first.

So, am I think that works? if you cannot make that judgment, can you be a WCner?

Lets repeat it again for the simple people (got that mirror handy)

Ive given my take on it earlier in this thread..... what cant you understand about that description?

And im asking YOU what he is trying to achieve there.
What cant you understand about that?

[Robinhood]

I think the whole seminar is pretty bad, and only taking these guys for their money because they dont know any better . This is why WC has gone down the tubes, these goofy guys trying to make money.



Cheers

[Hendrik]

Lets repeat it again for the simple people (got that mirror handy)

Ive given my take on it earlier in this thread..... what cant you understand about that description?

And im asking YOU what he is trying to achieve there.
What cant you understand about that?

hahaha. didnt sifu Leo very clearly explain in his clip? why ask me?

[Hendrik]

I think the whole seminar is pretty bad, and only taking these guys for their money because they dont know any better . This is why WC has gone down the tubes, these goofy guys trying to make money.



Cheers

IHMO,

This a type of Bong Sau variation in Gm Ip Man teaching. it doest work. and Leo is doing his best to teach.

other WCK lineages also uses this type of technics only it is named differently.

Even the Yang Taiji form has a slight variation of this.

So, it is a solid technic. just one needs to know what it is.

[GlennR]

hahaha. didnt sifu Leo very clearly explain in his clip? why ask me?

Because you bought it up you clown!!


Back to 1.20 demo.
In the demo of 1.20 there are intereting thing in WCK can be discussed but the critics seem not seeing it.

Youre the one putting it out there so you can correct everyone and offer your seeds of wisdom.

Hows that lounge chair? Comfortable i hope

[GlennR]

IHMO,

This a type of Bong Sau variation in Gm Ip Man teaching. it doest work. and Leo is doing his best to teach.

other WCK lineages also uses this type of technics only it is named differently.

Even the Yang Taiji form has a slight variation of this.

So, it is a solid technic. just one needs to know what it is.

Slowly for you this time
What is he trying to achieve??????

[Hendrik]

Because you bought it up you clown!!



Youre the one putting it out there so you can correct everyone and offer your seeds of wisdom.

Hows that lounge chair? Comfortable i hope


hahaha why ask me fighter?

[Hendrik]

Slowly for you this time
What is he trying to achieve??????


why ask a clown like me? figher. hahahaha

[Hendrik]

I have given enough hint.

so, I am taking a rest now.

Have fun!

[GlennR]

I have given enough hint.

so, I am taking a rest now.

Have fun!

Cop out
Zero
Clown

You must be exhausted from sitting on that lounge

[YouKnowWho]

to lead one going round and round with all kind of guessing work, ...
It's you who always does the "guessing work".

I don't do "guessing work". I put up my "personal clip" to back up my work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73JxUuHS9S0

[Hendrik]

It's you who always does the "guessing work".

I don't do "guessing work". I put up my "personal clip" to back up my work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73JxUuHS9S0


Great effort.

However, you missed the key point of the Ip Man lineage bong variation technics.
your technic is possible because you missed the key point there at the very begining of your set up. in mathematical sense you are solving a wrong question.

that is what I called guessing work. missed a little missed thousands of miles.

[Vajramusti]

It's you who always does the "guessing work".

I don't do "guessing work". I put up my "personal clip" to back up my work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73JxUuHS9S0
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
We have gone over this before. You don't do wing chun-period.

[Hendrik]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
We have gone over this before. You don't do wing chun-period.

That is my conclusion too.

[Shadow_warrior8]

IHMO,

This a type of Bong Sau variation in Gm Ip Man teaching. it doest work. and Leo is doing his best to teach.

other WCK lineages also uses this type of technics only it is named differently.

Even the Yang Taiji form has a slight variation of this.

So, it is a solid technic. just one needs to know what it is.

Sifu/Siheng Leo is the fight cheographer for the ip man movie

However I dont do, or was taught bong sao like this.

My Chum Kil is jum sao energy with forward downward energy

[Hendrik]

Sifu/Siheng Leo is the fight cheographer for the ip man movie

However I dont do, or was taught bong sao like this.

My Chum Kil is jum sao energy with forward downward energy


Shadow,

Give you a hint

側身肩為子午線
膀手鶴頂勁逼迫
手過三關任我打

It is wing Chun.
Game is over and those who don't know WCK still don't see it. It is even more ridiculous that the So called fighter cannot see it.

[Shadow_warrior8]

Shadow,

Give you a hint

側身肩為子午線
膀手鶴頂勁逼迫
手過三關任我打

It is wing Chun.
Game is over and those who don't know WCK still don't see it. It is even more ridiculous that the So called fighter cannot see it.

Thanks senior.

In the fight scene you can see leo taught donnie yen the same bong sao, since he was the fight cheographer. Guy flies back
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGcpDmGqS6A

I wouldnt really call it a traditional bong sao with the redirection energy and sung wrist, it more with "lan" energy and a stiff wrist and structure so even though I spiral out, the force of the attackers punch is redirected back into his structure. I do this when I teach class, but I make sure I explain the differences in the energy

Some more about Sifu/Siheng Leo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-DCcouDSJg

[Hendrik]

Thanks senior.

In the fight scene you can see leo taught donnie yen the same bong sao, since he was the fight cheographer. Guy flies back
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGcpDmGqS6A

I wouldnt really call it a traditional bong sao with the redirection energy and sung wrist, it more with "lan" energy and a stiff wrist and structure so even though I spiral out, the force of the attackers punch is redirected back into his structure. I 1. do this when I teach class, but I make sure I explain the differences in the energy

Some more about Sifu/Siheng Leo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-DCcouDSJg


Yes, agree.


1.
it is named as 埋身逼打 close body pressing attack。

or called 白鶴展翅 white crane spread its wings, since Bong is belong to Crane wing in the old WCK snake and crane ternminology. this method press capture disrupt the structure via shoulder bow jamming.

it is the technics of combat at the second and third gate range. where most people only does first and second gate.



2.
Contradict to most who think Leo avoid the center line, actually center line in WCK is dynamic, in sland body, shoulder line is the center line. and Leo has captured this center line via jamming the shoulder bow or joint, and disrupted the structure in this video. the indication can be clearly seen in the clip as the shoulder of the opponents is force to lifed up all the time, if one take a look at 1.00 to the end. Leo is always in control.


3.
as for John Youknowwho, he fail to see what is going on and thinking he can move his elbow.....etc. well, that cannot be done until one can de link and free the shoulder bow , one has to struggle with the captured shoulder center line before one can free to do other thing. Take a look at the John's clip,john is free to do what he does because in his set up, his shoulder and structure is not captured.

4. thus, i dont buy the claim of all these expert fighters here, because if they can not even see the jamming shoulder bow or joints . the critical point. they might be expert fighters in their own definition and words, however, by evidence, they are certainly not well train WCner. not to mention WCK figher that is forsure. they dont know what they are talking. at least not WCK. due to missing the critical infront of their eyes.

[Shadow_warrior8]

thanks senior

我又学到东西了

this 1840s wingchun is good stuff indeed.

[Hendrik]

thanks senior

我又学到东西了

this 1840s wingchun is good stuff indeed.


those are just the basic of

-------

所謂「避實擊虛」就是如常山之蛇。撃其頭則尾應。撃尾則頭應。撃腹則頭尾應。也因為如此。註定 了詠春拳「借 力打力。近身貼纒。善發寸勁」。
Avoid strong point attack weak spot can be analogy as the snake . When it was attacked on the head, it avoids the head attack and counter with its tail. When it was attacked on the tail. It avoids the tail attact and counter with its tail. When it was attacked on the stomach. It avoids the stomach and counter with both the head and tail. WCK is using "borrow force to destroy force, close body stick reeling, inch power" to realize the principle of avoid strong point attack weak spot.

------


center line is not define as a physical fix center line from the frontal.

but define as the imaginary axis run from the center of the top of the head or bai hui to the hui yin down ward.

one can capture this center line from different angle. not neccesary the frontal only.

in sland body, that line accord with the shoulder line. it is just looking at that central axis from the angle of slanding or side body view.

in this case, jamming the shoulder bow or joint, that is already game over, one has control of the structure.

[YouKnowWho]

3.
as for John Youknowwho, he fail to see what is going on and thinking he can move his elbow.....etc. well, that cannot be done until one can de link and free the shoulder bow , one has to struggle with the captured shoulder center line before one can free to do other thing. Take a look at the John's clip,john is free to do what he does because in his set up, his shoulder and structure is not captured.
When you pull your punching arm back to your waist, you will drop your elbow fist. This move exist in all TCMA forms as the ending posture.

You fail to see what could happen at 1.20.

- I don't have to use my shoulder. Since my elbow joint has passed my opponent's forearm, I can drop and bend my arm right at my elbow joint.
- My elbow dropping take advantage on the gravity. There is no way that my opponent can stop it.
- If my opponent moves in toward me 埋身逼打(close body pressing attack), it will help me to reduce the distance.
- I still have my left free arm that can be used to block my opponent's right punch if needed.
- Since my opponent's right hand is below my arm, he can only punch on my body. When I drop my right elbow, my right palm can hit on top of his head. I prefer a trade like that.

Few other elements you also fail to see.

- It's very difficult to block a fast punch.
- When you block a punch, that punch can change into a Fu Shou and pull your Bong Shou arm away.
- The dropping elbow can also deflect the Bong Shou away.
- That punch can be a fake bait. The punch can pull back before contact.
- ...

Trying to cover all different outcomes at 1.20 is not realistic.

[Robinhood]

Lets be honest here, nobody is going to throw a punch being to far away to begin with, no one is going to leave punch hanging straight out at head height, a bong is to slow to block high punch and is wrong move from start.

Video is fantasy, never happen that way.




Cheers

[A Joyful Proces]

Shadow,

Give you a hint

側身肩為子午線
膀手鶴頂勁逼迫
手過三關任我打

It is wing Chun.
Game is over and those who don't know WCK still don't see it. It is even more ridiculous that the So called fighter cannot see it.



Thanks Hendrik,

I hv read most of the replies, finally only you can see what i was doing, very good indeed.

When i was making this video (actually all my videos), i dont want to show people some normal box standard wing chun which everyone know and everyone do.

I want to show some wing chun which is different and not many people will do the way i do. Most people when they first see it will think the techniques were wrong or even a bit alien for them (for example you can see from the first few pages on this forum).

However the way i applied my wing chun are still follow the wing chun principle. If the people they dont really understand wing chun and not able to think outside the box they will think i was wrong. More important is they wont able to just copy my techniques and use it in their wing chun system.

i saw one personal called me Siheng, he may be ip chun's or Samuel's student but he may not know i also got another wing chun Sifu.

by the way i also choreographed the ip chun fight scene in 'Ip man: the legend is born' movie to show people if you understand your kung fu (wing chun) good enough you can do what ever u want as long as you follow the principle and you will possible become very close to formless.


Leo Au Yeung

[Hendrik]

Thanks Hendrik,

I hv read most of the replies, finally only you can see what i was doing, very good indeed.

When i was making this video (actually all my videos), i dont want to show people some normal box standard wing chun which everyone know and everyone do.

I want to show some wing chun which is different and not many people will do the way i do. Most people when they first see it will think the techniques were wrong or even a bit alien for them (for example you can see from the first few pages on this forum).

However the way i applied my wing chun are still follow the wing chun principle. If the people they dont really understand wing chun and not able to think outside the box they will think i was wrong. More important is they wont able to just copy my techniques and use it in their wing chun system.

i saw one personal called me Siheng, he may be ip chun's or Samuel's student but he may not know i also got another wing chun Sifu.

by the way i also choreographed the ip chun fight scene in 'Ip man: the legend is born' movie to show people if you understand your kung fu (wing chun) good enough you can do what ever u want as long as you follow the principle and you will possible become very close to formless.


Leo Au Yeung



Leo,

Thanks!
I am just a no can do clown to push my YKT for health. hahaha


as for WCK the following is my view
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7w5bnV6kpjQ


you have done very good for introducing WCK to the public, thanks and appreciate!
Keep up your excellent works! Hope to see your new movies !


Best Regards
Hendrik


PS. yes, Bertrand is from Ip Chun 's line in my understanding.
what you show in your demo is a good example of
膀手鶴頂勁. 手過三關. Great!



拳從心發:

象天則地，圓空法生，大小開合，唯妙于心。
如如不動，是真陰陽，寶斯不動，發用乃常。

靜如秋月，動若飆風，彬彬克敵，分寸之中。
輕若鴻毛，重逾泰山，用中無形，體用一焉。

[A Joyful Proces]

Leo,

Thanks!
I am just a no can do clown to push my YKT for health. hahaha


as for WCK the following is my view
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7w5bnV6kpjQ


you have done very good for introducing WCK to the public, thanks and appreciate!
Keep up your excellent works! Hope to see your new movies !


Best Regards
Hendrik


PS. yes, Bertrand is from Ip Chun 's line in my understanding.
what you show in your demo is a good example of
膀手鶴頂勁. 手過三關. Great!



拳從心發:

象天則地，圓空法生，大小開合，唯妙于心。
如如不動，是真陰陽，寶斯不動，發用乃常。

靜如秋月，動若飆風，彬彬克敵，分寸之中。
輕若鴻毛，重逾泰山，用中無形，體用一焉。


Hi Hendrik,

Your chinese is very good, impressive.
Where are you now? if you are in London, i would be interested to meet you. My wing chun is still very limited and you must able to teach me a lot. by the way which wing chun lineage are you from?
All the words you said is true but i wonder how many people can do it......

regards
leo au yeung

[LoneTiger108]

A good little discussion finally happens on KFO and it's nice to also see Sifu Leo here who I guess understands Hendriks viewpoint too :)

I only have one thing to ask Hendrik, please use the word 'slant/slanted' body! Or Pinsan/Piensan would be good enough ;)


... in sland body, that line accord with the shoulder line. it is just looking at that central axis from the angle of slanding or side body view.

[imperialtaichi]

In the fight scene you can see leo taught donnie yen the same bong sao, since he was the fight cheographer. Guy flies back
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGcpDmGqS6A

Shadow, you are using a choreographed movie scene as an example to illustrate effectiveness?

[Robinhood]

Henrick,

I see your crane wing bong, but it is not good place to use it, if you push the guys shoulder up and away, you are giving him energy to kick you or delink and capture you, and you could also end up running into his power still.

Plus if you push the guy away, you can't hit him now without starting new sequence.

The sequence also has too many moves on one side without changes on other side.

It might be good movie move, but Not good use of other persons energy.


Cheers

[imperialtaichi]

When i was making this video (actually all my videos), i dont want to show people some normal box standard wing chun which everyone know and everyone do.

I want to show some wing chun which is different and not many people will do the way i do. Most people when they first see it will think the techniques were wrong or even a bit alien for them (for example you can see from the first few pages on this forum).

However the way i applied my wing chun are still follow the wing chun principle. If the people they dont really understand wing chun and not able to think outside the box they will think i was wrong. More important is they wont able to just copy my techniques and use it in their wing chun system.

Hello Leo, thank you for the wonderful work with the movies, they were absolutely well done. It is great that you are participating with the discussion explaining what you are doing.

So really, what you showed, was not a Bong Sau, but a 撐掌 then (which has similar power to, but not exactly the same as a one handed push up). It is designed to deliver a palm strike to the opponent's chest, and NOT for the purpose of moving the opponent's attacking arm out of the way; changing according to the force of the opponent, using the strategy of "移位不移點 (Move position, don't move point)" sliding in for the attack.

On the video it was very confusing as 撐掌 cannot be used then stopped half way in time, as the opponent can capitalise on the weakness of the hanging wrist; as soon as the opponent sense you push up, he will fight back and push down and it does not matter how strong you are you will not be able to sustain weight or a resisting opponent. It also means those strike to the side ribs was to be done together as a double attack instead of "first bong then punch" as there is no Bong and no separation in timing at all.

Why not calling a spade a "spade", just demonstrate it and call it as a very effective 撐掌; show how to use it properly, instead of disguising it and limiting yourself as an ineffective Bong Sau?

[Hendrik]

Hi Hendrik,

Your chinese is very good, impressive.
Where are you now? if you are in London, i would be interested to meet you. My wing chun is still very limited and you must able to teach me a lot. by the way which wing chun lineage are you from?
All the words you said is true but i wonder how many people can do it......

regards
leo au yeung


Hi Leo,

I am just an amateur wck historian in USA . I can learn a lot from you.

This is me
http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1161555&postcount=1

The worlds above is from the mother art of WCK 1850 red boat by their proffesional standard, those in red boat opera accompany 李文茂 uprising must be able to do it to a large degree. In my option.

Best regards
Hendrik

[Happy Tiger]

Great!

Now we are talking WCK atleast.So' was I right?

[Hendrik]

A good little discussion finally happens on KFO and it's nice to also see Sifu Leo here who I guess understands Hendriks viewpoint too :)

I only have one thing to ask Hendrik, please use the word 'slant/slanted' body! Or Pinsan/Piensan would be good enough ;)

You know my English, hahaha, please feel free to correct me.

Thanks Bro!

[Hendrik]

So' was I right?

Yes, sure, in that direction.

[Hendrik]

Henrick,

I see your crane wing bong, but it is not good place to use it, if you push the guys shoulder up and away, you are giving him energy to kick you or delink and capture you, and you could also end up running into his power still.

Plus if you push the guy away, you can't hit him now without starting new sequence.

The sequence also has too many moves on one side without changes on other side.

It might be good movie move, but Not good use of other persons energy.


Cheers

Close body Press strike is real deal.

It is obviously not simple, it is a force vector, momentum, tactic play.

With it, you can dis arm the shoulder bow or joint, hang him in balance or uproot, disrupt his structure in the same time, leave him struggle hang over, and he is yours . Or you can bounce him at the uproot .

One needs to know what Type of Jin and how to handle force vector, momentum, properly accordingly. That is kung fu development. It is not easy stuffs.

Those are the play of the pro wcner in the old time when their visualization command their force vector formation. It is a part of WCK short Jin. It is a play in the force vectors realm .

as it says:

靜如秋月，動若飆風，彬彬克敵，分寸之中。 Quiet similar to the autum moon, active similar to cyclone, gentle subdue the enermy, within inches of changes.

輕若鴻毛，重逾泰山，用中無形，體用一焉。As light as a feather . As heavy as a mountain. Any physical form or shape is applicable , both the body and the applications of the art is non dua.

Those are the professional play , a game of precision force vectors handling.


Since Leo dig it up, let's give him some support .

[imperialtaichi]

Plus if you push the guy away, you can't hit him now without starting new sequence.

The sequence also has too many moves on one side without changes on other side.

RH, if I am to to do it, I'll do it this way (or variations using same principle). It's an old clip I posted previously.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xH0rlFyfkYA

Should be done in one single move, intercepting the opponent's attack before it is fully executed.

Good question, why do I need to push the guy away? Sometimes we may need to throw the opponent at other attackers or to throw him against a wall.

I real life, I will not stop there, but chasing and striking the guy as he is falling back, as he is too busy trying to stay upright to effectively deal with my attacks.

[Hendrik]

Hello Leo, thank you for the wonderful work with the movies, they were absolutely well done. It is great that you are participating with the discussion explaining what you are doing.

So really, what you showed, was not a Bong Sau, but a 撐掌 then (which has similar power to, but not exactly the same as a one handed push up). It is designed to deliver a palm strike to the opponent's chest, and NOT for the purpose of moving the opponent's attacking arm out of the way; changing according to the force of the opponent, using the strategy of "移位不移點 (Move position, don't move point)" sliding in for the attack.

On the video it was very confusing as 撐掌 cannot be used then stopped half way in time, as the opponent can capitalise on the weakness of the hanging wrist;

as soon as the opponent sense you push up, he will fight back and push down and it does not matter how strong you are you will not be able to sustain weight or a resisting opponent.

It also means those strike to the side ribs was to be done together as a double attack instead of "first bong then punch" as there is no Bong and no separation in timing at all.

Why not calling a spade a "spade", just demonstrate it and call it as a very effective 撐掌; show how to use it properly, instead of disguising it and limiting yourself as an ineffective Bong Sau?


John,

IMHO,

In the old time, Bong or hok bong or crane wing is a "third hand" of WCK. It can deliver different Jin . That is different to what we in general refer to bong today.
Leo's bong is not the bong define as today, but a old time crane Wing of WCK.

In Leo 's clip, his Jin is penetrating and controlling the shoulder bow directly. As you know, when the shoulder bow or joint got disrupted jam lifted. At least Half of the body is already being control and disintegrate or uproot.

[YouKnowWho]

if you push the guy away, you can't hit him ...


why do I need to push the guy away? Sometimes we may need to throw the opponent at other attackers or to throw him against a wall.

I prefer to pull my opponent into my punch.

A + B > A

Why WC guys here don't like to talk about it? :confused:

[k gledhill]

I prefer to pull my opponent into my punch.

A + B > A

Why WC guys here don't like to talk about it? :confused:

YKW do you do VT ?

[imperialtaichi]

I prefer to pull my opponent into my punch.

Agree. But one needs to have other options in fights.

[YouKnowWho]

YKW do you do VT ?

Yes, I do. But WC is not the only style that I have trained. You can use WC Fu Shou to pull your opponent into you and punch him at the same time to cause a "head on collision" as A + B > A.

To push someone back and punch him at the same time (A - B < A) make no sense to me.

[Robinhood]

Close body Press strike is real deal.

It is obviously not simple, it is a force vector, momentum, tactic play.

With it, you can dis arm the shoulder bow or joint, hang him in balance or uproot, disrupt his structure in the same time, leave him struggle hang over, and he is yours . Or you can bounce him at the uproot .

One needs to know what Type of Jin and how to handle force vector, momentum, properly accordingly. That is kung fu development. It is not easy stuffs.

Those are the play of the pro wcner in the old time when their visualization command their force vector formation. It is a part of WCK short Jin. It is a play in the force vectors realm .

as it says:

靜如秋月，動若飆風，彬彬克敵，分寸之中。 Quiet similar to the autum moon, active similar to cyclone, gentle subdue the enermy, within inches of changes.

輕若鴻毛，重逾泰山，用中無形，體用一焉。As light as a feather . As hieavy as a mountain. Any physical form or shape is applicable , both the body and the applications of the art is non dua.

Those are the professional play , a game of precision force vectors handling.


Since Leo dig it up, let's give him some support .

Yes, all those things can be done with the right energy, I did not see it in his example, probably because of the excess movements.


Cheers

[imperialtaichi]

Yes, I do. But WC is not the only style that I have trained. You can use WC Fu Shou to pull your opponent into you and punch him at the same time to cause a "head on collision" as A + B > A.

To push someone back and punch him at the same time (A - B < A) make no sense to me.

It's not just about how hard, but how effective. A smaller force on a falling opponent can often cause more damage on a stable, braced up opponent.

[YouKnowWho]

It's not just about how hard, but how effective. A smaller force on a falling opponent can often cause more damage on a stable, braced up opponent.
If you are talking about "push", I will agree with you. If I fall and you make me to fall faster, that's A + B > A (borrowing force). You depend on the hard ground to hurt me.

If you are talk about "punch", I will not agree with you. Because A - B < A.

If you stab your dagger at my chest when I move

- in toward you, your dagger may go through my body.
- back away from you, your dagger may just get into my skin.

[Happy Tiger]

John,

IMHO,

In the old time, Bong or hok bong or crane wing is a "third hand" of WCK. It can deliver different Jin . That is different to what we in general refer to bong today.
Leo's bong is not the bong define as today, but a old time crane Wing of WCK.

In Leo 's clip, his Jin is penetrating and controlling the shoulder bow directly. As you know, when the shoulder bow or joint got disrupted jam lifted. At least Half of the body is already being control and disintegrate or uproot.
This is the way of TST method. When I learned this way of control, it improved my ability to handle restless, agressive folks in security situations.TST can bring many along without striking at all by finding and controling ones balance and root by bong sau then led by tan

[Hendrik]

This is the way of TST method. When I learned this way of control, it improved my ability to handle restless, agressive folks in security situations.TST can bring many along without striking at all by finding and controling ones balance and root by bong sau then led by tan

There are lots of Great WCners around which we always can learn from, isnt it?

[Shadow_warrior8]

Shadow, you are using a choreographed movie scene as an example to illustrate effectiveness?

Your point? It's the same move

Wingchun is Wingchun Leo was doing the moves to show Wingchun

When I do it same effect of breaking the structure and jamming the shoulder

[Shadow_warrior8]

i saw one personal called me Siheng, he may be ip chun's or Samuel's student but he may not know i also got another wing chun Sifu.

Leo Au Yeung

Hi Sifu/ Siheng Leo

Sifu Samuel Kwok is my teacher and I teach in singapore
Sifu talks proudly about your great work with all the ip man movies and in the interviews he sends to us
Please share more 心法
We have learnt alot from your fight moves and the movies made by senior checkley sim- thank you very much
As Sifu tells us in Asia we are all one family
Best regards for the next movie- looking forward to it

[Shadow_warrior8]

If the discussion is about names, it would be quite pointless

It can be bong sao, with lan energy
It can be bong sao with redirecting energy
Depends on what you want to do, yield and larp da or break structure

We can do many different shapes of wingchun but its the yi intention of what we want that determines the energy

How badly did you want to hurt him or was it something you could walk away from without havent legal consequences.

[imperialtaichi]

Your point? It's the same move

Wingchun is Wingchun Leo was doing the moves to show Wingchun

When I do it same effect of breaking the structure and jamming the shoulder

Possibly misunderstanding from my part. If you are showing the movie clip to show how the move is supposed to be used, then you are right on. If I misread it as an illustration of knocking the guy flying back, I apologise. What works in movies may/may not work in real life as dramatically.

Demonstrations/tutorials can be very confusing. From Leo's demo clip, with the Bong/撐掌 (whatever you want to call it) stopping half way and supporting the opponent's arm, it will never work for a million years. But if Leo was trying to demonstrate the same move as in the movie (but may be stopping half way for demo purpose only?), then it is a very effectively technique.

Sifu Leo, were you showing the same technique in your demo clip as in the part of the movie SW8 is pointing at?

[Hendrik]

Possibly misunderstanding from my part. If you are showing the movie clip to show how the move is supposed to be used, then you are right on. If I misread it as an illustration of knocking the guy flying back, I apologise. What works in movies may/may not work in real life as dramatically.

Demonstrations/tutorials can be very confusing. From Leo's demo clip, with the Bong/撐掌 (whatever you want to call it) stopping half way and supporting the opponent's arm, it will never work for a million years. But if Leo was trying to demonstrate the same move as in the movie (but may be stopping half way for demo purpose only?), then it is a very effectively technique.

Sifu Leo, were you showing the same technique in your demo clip as in the part of the movie SW8 is pointing at?


IMHO,

Look at around 1.00 , it is clear on what it is. On how Leo issue force to the opponent shoulder bow or joint to disrupt and dis integrate structure . Take that as what it is , instead of what we think.

[JPinAZ]

Yes, I do. But WC is not the only style that I have trained. You can use WC Fu Shou to pull your opponent into you and punch him at the same time to cause a "head on collision" as A + B > A.

To push someone back and punch him at the same time (A - B < A) make no sense to me.

I'm with you on this to an extent.

IMO, it's not really about push or pull on the opponent, it's about angle/position, leverage control and effecting opponent's COG. If you already have proper range for all weapons (both hand's and feet) and have positional advantage along with leverage control and either a connection to opponent's COG (or influence on it) then you should be able to strike without push or pull. Of course, the opponent will not just stand there, but if you still have some connection/bridge to their COG, you should still be able to read and influence him thru the bridge (very slight push pull) and keep him in range to continue attack.

But to push them out of range doesn't make sense to me, and to pull them in closer then optimal range doesn't either. But if by push or pull one is referring to doing it slightly to influence the opponent's COG & position while maintaning proper range for striking, then I agree with both. Really depends how you define push/pull I guess.

[JPinAZ]

those are just the basic of

-------

center line is not define as a physical fix center line from the frontal.

but define as the imaginary axis run from the center of the top of the head or bai hui to the hui yin down ward.

You speak of 'just basic of' understanding, I'd say that's all you have of what centerline is. You are only just describing the first part - self centerline in relation to self body alignment and center of gravity. But this is just the beginning of the concept.
For someone that is a self-proclaimed inheritor of a lineage, if this is all you think it is then you don't even have a very deep understanding of the first concept of WCK...


I am just a no can do clown to push my YKT for health.
hahaha

We can tell that by reading your posts - at least you're finally being honest about it :rolleyes:

[YouKnowWho]

Really depends how you define push/pull I guess.
Ther are many advantage to "pull". I just find this interest clip. In this clip, Sam Chin's strike at 0.05 is just to

- make contact,
- "pull" (not push) himeslf into his opponent (to close distance).

I think the "Iliqchuan bridging" and "WC sticky hand" should have a lot of "similiarity".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSAuR8cOmHM

[JPinAZ]

Ther are many advantage to "pull". I just find this interest clip. In this clip, Sam Chin's strike at 0.05 is just to

- make contact,
- "pull" (not push) himeslf into his opponent (to close distance).

I think the "Iliqchuan bridging" and "WC sticky hand" should be "similiar".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSAuR8cOmHM

I always like watching Sifu Sam in action, nice guy too!
I would say yes, in regards to bridging the gap, this could be a good idea on 'pull'. Later in the clip he breaks it down. He uses the first part of the action to cover the line and bridge with his opponent, and then the 'pull' is used to distort the opponent's COG and position while he enters. While from a WCK POV this could be looked at as chasing hands to an extend, in HFY we have a somewhat similar bridging application in our Cheurn Kiu Sau (long bridge) training called noi gwa sau. But it is typically use for an incoming attack vs. as a way to enter.

[YouKnowWho]

But it is typically use for an incoming attack vs. as a way to enter.

Do you think you can always change that to fit into "you attack first" modle? For example, when your opponent punches at you, you can use your Fu Shou. But if you punch first, when your opponent use Tan Shou, you can change your punching arm into Fu Shou. All you need is to use a fake punch to set up (as Sam demonstrated in his clip).

[imperialtaichi]

YKW, I am not disagreeing with you to better pull the opponent in than push the opponent out, but there are times we need to send the opponent out.

In KL22, ideally we want to "wrap up" the opponent so we can continue to smash him until he is neutralises. If you look at most of my clips that's what I do.

We also have techniques on holding the BJD with the blade facing inwards, for exactly the same reason; which is to cut the opponent in instead of cutting the opponent out. Although this method is rarely taught.

[wingchunIan]

I prefer to pull my opponent into my punch.

A + B > A

Why WC guys here don't like to talk about it? :confused:

Maybe because it hasn't come up in a thread......
Man gan sau, jut sau, lap sau etc can all be used to "pull" the opponent onto a strike, the combination of opposing energies is repeatedly seen through the dummy form. Seems a strange comment to make.

[Vajramusti]

Maybe because it hasn't come up in a thread......
Man gan sau, jut sau, lap sau etc can all be used to "pull" the opponent onto a strike, the combination of opposing energies is repeatedly seen through the dummy form. Seems a strange comment to make.
---------------------------------------------------
He does not know wing chun- but comments on many things- and as they say- everyone has an opinion!

[YouKnowWho]

---------------------------------------------------
He does not know wing chun- but comments on many things- and as they say- everyone has an opinion!

Because most WC guys here don't want to discuss "general TCMA subjects" in non-WC threads.

It's very unlikely that you will have to fight another WC guy in street. Most likely you will fight people from other styles. the more that you can understand their way of thinking, the more advantage that you will have when you need to fight them.

I had trained all 3 WC forms and wooden dummy drills (no butterfly knife and 6 and 1/2 point staff) from 3 of Ip Men's students back in 1973. I have nothing to hide for my TCMA cross training history.

[Robinhood]

Because most WC guys here don't want to discuss "general TCMA subjects" in non-WC threads.

It's very unlikely that you will have to fight another WC guy in street. Most likely you will fight people from other styles. the more that you can understand their way of thinking, the more advantage that you will have when you need to fight them.

I had trained all 3 WC forms and wooden dummy drills (no butterfly knife and 6 and 1/2 point staff) from 3 of Ip Men's students back in 1973. I have nothing to hide for my TCMA cross training history.


Lol. If learning sets was all it took to know a style , everyone would be experts.

Who cares what you are thinking ,its what you do that counts, you have to be in real time, not ahead or behind.


Cheers

[JPinAZ]

---------------------------------------------------
He does not know wing chun- but comments on many things- and as they say- everyone has an opinion!

Apparently you have one too, but are to pu55y to just say it ;)

Who cares if he doesn't know WCK as well as many others here? He does have SOME understanding and he is honest about where his opinions come from (his understanding of WC as limitted as it may be AND his many years experience on what works).
I've had the pleasure of meeting John a few years ago at a tourney in Texas, and he comes from a strong background in real world application and usage of TCMA's. So even if his opinion might differ from mine on occasion, it's a lot better perspective than that of someone that just cries repeatedly "he doesn't know wing chun! He doesn't know wing chun!" :rolleyes:

[Hendrik]

Lol. If learning sets was all it took to know a style , everyone would be experts.

Who cares what you are thinking ,its what you do that counts, you have to be in real time, not ahead or behind.


Cheers

John is practicing the same way with Xing yi, I tell him one needs to develop the San ti shi and six harmony Jin. Otherwise those sets doesn't mean much. But he seems to not be able to understand. How can one claim to be Xing yi expert of high generation wihtout knowing that?

John seems to think his shuai jiau basic cover and applied to all tcma. That is what I see. And he will not admit he has misunderstanding.

[Robinhood]

John is practicing the same way with Xing yi, I tell him one needs to develop the San ti shi and six harmony Jin. Otherwise those sets doesn't mean much. But he seems to not be able to understand. How can one claim to be Xing yi expert of high generation wihtout knowing that?

John seems to think his shuai jiau basic cover and applied to all tcma. That is what I see. And he will not admit he has misunderstanding.


Yes, you can learn the outside from doing sets, but that is just imitation of what it looks like as an observer, the outside shell only, with hollow inside.



Cheers

[GlennR]

Apparently you have one too, but are to pu55y to just say it ;)

Who cares if he doesn't know WCK as well as many others here? He does have SOME understanding and he is honest about where his opinions come from (his understanding of WC as limitted as it may be AND his many years experience on what works).
I've had the pleasure of meeting John a few years ago at a tourney in Texas, and he comes from a strong background in real world application and usage of TCMA's. So even if his opinion might differ from mine on occasion, it's a lot better perspective than that of someone that just cries repeatedly "he doesn't know wing chun! He doesn't know wing chun!" :rolleyes:

Well said JP.
Seems you have some parties on here that want to link WC to TCMA to bolster their (supposed) knowledge and overall intellectual standing, but the minute someone comes in from a true TCMA angle they cry "you dont do WC!!!"

Hypocrisy with a capitol H

Having said that, Joy doesn't seem to push the TCMA barrow too much but does seem put of by Johns comments. But hey, its a free forum

[guy b.]

John is practicing the same way with Xing yi, I tell him one needs to develop the San ti shi and six harmony Jin. Otherwise those sets doesn't mean much. But he seems to not be able to understand. How can one claim to be Xing yi expert of high generation wihtout knowing that?

John seems to think his shuai jiau basic cover and applied to all tcma. That is what I see. And he will not admit he has misunderstanding.

Why perform the pole standing? What is the reason? What do you mean by "six harmony jin" in simple physical terms? How do you know that John doesn't understand the genuine physical thing these practices and doctrines are intended to teach? Surely you agree there are other ways to gain an understanding of this?

[YouKnowWho]

John is practicing the same way with Xing yi, I tell him one needs to develop the San ti shi and six harmony Jin. Otherwise those sets doesn't mean much. But he seems to not be able to understand. How can one claim to be Xing yi expert of high generation wihtout knowing that?

John seems to think his shuai jiau basic cover and applied to all tcma. That is what I see. And he will not admit he has misunderstanding.
Do I spend hours of daily training in San Ti Shi? No!. I have always believed that:

- running is better than walking.
- walking is better than standing.
- standing is better than sitting.
- sitting is better than laying down.
- laying down is better than to be dead.

If you move a tree, that tree will be dead. If you move a person, that person will live long. The running water won't have bugs. "Moving around" is the secret of long life. When I can still jump, flip, run, walk, ... I want to explore the world and enjoy my life. The day that I have to go to jail, I'll have plenty time to stand in San Ti Shi in my 6 x 8 prison cell.

Do I have perfect 6 harmonies? Of course not! One guy commented on one of my Taiji clip and said that my hands and feet didnot stop all at the same time. I agree with him. My 6 harmonies is not perfect. I'll have the rest of my lifetime to improve my 6 harmonies.

I have never claimed that I'm a XingYi or WC expert. The word "style" has no meaning to me. I'm just a "TCMA MMA guy" who is interesting in kick, punch, lock, throw, and ground game integration.

[Hendrik]

Why perform the pole standing? What is the reason? What do you mean by "six harmony jin" in simple physical terms?

How do you know that John doesn't understand the genuine physical thing these practices and doctrines are intended to teach?

Surely you agree there are other ways to gain an understanding of this?


Perform the pole to align and integrate all five layers together in the same time.

John unaware of the common insight which those who has cultivated it will share.

Different style has different particular development, if it is Xing yi, one needs to describe Xing yi. If it is wing Chun crane withstand Jin Leo is showing, then one describe wing Chun crane withstand.

[YouKnowWho]

John unaware of the common insight which those who has cultivated it will share.
Please show me your personal clip for San Ti Shi and 6 harmony training.

I'm sorry to say that, for your age (I believe you are over 50 years old), if you are still talking about:

- this style should do this way,
- that style should do that way,

you and I just don't live on the same planet.

After you have knocked your opponent down, you can stand on his dead body to perform

- Bong Shou to prove you are a WC guy.
- White Crane Flap Wings to prove you are a Taiji guy.
- San Ti Shi to prove you are a XingYi guy.
- ...

[Hendrik]

Please show me your personal clip for San Ti Shi and 6 harmony training.

I'm sorry to say that, for your age (I believe you are over 50 years old), if you are still talking about:

- this style should do this way,
- that style should do that way,

you and I just don't live on the same planet.

After you have knocked your opponent down, you can stand on his dead body to perform

- Bong Shou to prove you are a WC guy.
- White Crane Flap Wings to prove you are a Taiji guy.
- San Ti Shi to prove you are a XingYi guy.
- ...


I have just delete my post trying to have a friendly discussion , after I seen your last edit. We are from different planet that is for sure.

Believe anything you like. I am ok with it.

Btw, machine gun is not bazooka . And pistol is not crossbow. A machine gun guy, a cross bow guy....those are all different guys.

[YouKnowWho]

We are from different planet that is for sure.
We look at TCMA from different angles. You care about "yourself". I care about "others".

[Hendrik]

We look at TCMA from different angles. You care about "yourself". I care about "others".

not true, I care for both myself and others.

[Vajramusti]

Because most WC guys here don't want to discuss "general TCMA subjects" in non-WC threads.

It's very unlikely that you will have to fight another WC guy in street. Most likely you will fight people from other styles. the more that you can understand their way of thinking, the more advantage that you will have when you need to fight them.

I had trained all 3 WC forms and wooden dummy drills (no butterfly knife and 6 and 1/2 point staff) from 3 of Ip Men's students back in 1973. I have nothing to hide for my TCMA cross training history.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
You Know Who:
We have gone over this before. No direct Ip man student taught in Austin to the best of my knowledge, You worked out with some students way down the line and assume that you know wing chun. With your grounding in Chinese wrestling- you assume that you can generalize about all styles.You are branching out from your game which is ok- but pontificating about another game
can result in errors.

Wing chun is not about defending only against other wing chun people. Knowing your game is important. If one learns the wing chun game well- you can learn to deal with other styles.

You tend to over generalize about all of TCMA. The result is making errors about what styles really do in their details. In a thread you started in the general forum- which went fairly dry- you generalized about TCMA witha glue v hook theme. For WC you used the fook and the tan- quite
inaccurately.

[JPinAZ]

Well said JP.
Seems you have some parties on here that want to link WC to TCMA to bolster their (supposed) knowledge and overall intellectual standing, but the minute someone comes in from a true TCMA angle they cry "you dont do WC!!!"

Hypocrisy with a capitol H

Having said that, Joy doesn't seem to push the TCMA barrow too much but does seem put of by Johns comments. But hey, its a free forum

Haha, good point! Some are always talking snake this, crane that, tai chi mumbo jumbo something else on almost every post whenever they talk WC!

Not to beat a dead horse (but ahh, what the heck!), to me it seems John is sharing his view on a WCK clip based on understanding of basic principles, physics, geometry, leverage and human anatomy (not to mention simple logic). IMO, this is what WCK is all about, not if a certain technique is WC or not WC. He sounds more like a what WCK guy should sound like at times more-so than some of the self-proclaimed WCK experts around here! I think that scares or confuses them because some are stuck in a technique level of thinking when he is going beyond just the technique he sees. :D

[Hendrik]

-------------------------------------------------------------------
You Know Who:
We have gone over this before. No direct Ip man student taught in Austin to the best of my knowledge, You worked out with some students way down the line and assume that you know wing chun. With your grounding in Chinese wrestling- you assume that you can generalize about all styles.You are branching out from your game which is ok- but pontificating about another game
can result in errors.

Wing chun is not about defending only against other wing chun people. Knowing your game is important. If one learns the wing chun game well- you can learn to deal with other styles.

You tend to over generalize about all of TCMA. The result is making errors about what styles really do in their details. In a thread you started in the general forum- which went fairly dry- you generalized about TCMA witha glue v hook theme. For WC you used the fook and the tan- quite
inaccurately.



I agree with Joy on John tcma view. John is a great sc player it is sad when he decides to run too thin.

[Wayfaring]

Btw, machine gun is not bazooka . And pistol is not crossbow. A machine gun guy, a cross bow guy....those are all different guys.

I totally agree. My machine gun guy is definitely in Gears of War. And my crossbow guy is Assassin's Creed all the way. ;)

[desertwingchun2]

I totally agree. My machine gun guy is definitely in Gears of War. And my crossbow guy is Assassin's Creed all the way. ;)

Boomshot - GOW
UMP - COD3

[desertwingchun2]

not true, I care for both myself and others.

There is no self only thus, rookie HAHAHAHAHA

Lean back and laugh into the wind, it feels better that way.

[guy b.]

John is practicing the same way with Xing yi, I tell him one needs to develop the San ti shi and six harmony Jin. Otherwise those sets doesn't mean much. But he seems to not be able to understand. How can one claim to be Xing yi expert of high generation wihtout knowing that?

John seems to think his shuai jiau basic cover and applied to all tcma. That is what I see. And he will not admit he has misunderstanding.

Why does he need to develop san ti shi and 6 harmony jin (in physical terms that everyone can understand the meaning of)?

[YouKnowWho]

No direct Ip man student taught in Austin to the best of my knowledge, You worked out with some students way down the line and assume that you know wing chun.

You don't know me and you make such assumption. Those 3 Ip Men students did not have comercial school. There were just UT (University of Texas at Austin) students like me.

When I started my UT Kung Fu Information class back in 1973, Jeffery Law taught WC for the 1st hour and I taught longfist for the 2nd hour. Please check with UT informal class official record if you want to. Jeffery Law gradulated from UT with a PhD degree in the field of "Operation Research". Last time I knew, he was a prefessor in some Texas university. The reason that got me interested in WC was I sparred with his brother ??? Law, His brother's WC skill imprssed me. I could still remember that when I punch at his chest, his Tan Shou redirected my punch. That sparring happened in the Brickenridge Apartment (UT marriage students apartment) under a big tree where I hanged my heavy bag. Jeffery brother also told me that before he came to US, He had sparred with a Karate guy. He used WC reverse downward side kick to tear his opponent's shin bone muscle. May be someone could verify that in Hong Kong back in 1972.

If your teacher is one of Ip Man's students (I assume you didn't learn directly from Ip Man - I could be wrong), you can ask him whether Jeffery Law and his brother ??? Law are Ip Men's students. I can't remember the 3rd person's name. I don't believe back in 1973 (Bruce Lee was still alive), there were any Ip Men students who could be 2 generation down. It would be very difficult to find anybody from Ip Men's students back in 1973.

Liang Ting came to Austin and taught one of my Karate friend RICHARD 'TIGER' GUERRA That was back 1980.

https://sites.google.com/site/manodeguerra/home

Again, I don't claim to be a WC expert but I do understand the WC principles.

[Hendrik]

Why does he need to develop san ti shi and 6 harmony jin (in physical terms that everyone can understand the meaning of)?

becuase that is the particular engine to power xing yi.

[guy b.]

becuase that is the particular engine to power xing yi.

These are not the engine, they only develop the engine. What is the engine?

[Hendrik]

These are not the engine, they only develop the engine. What is the engine?

ok. since you already know it. i leave it to you now.

[wingchunIan]

It's you who always does the "guessing work".

I don't do "guessing work". I put up my "personal clip" to back up my work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73JxUuHS9S0

Just as an observation, and far be it from me to try to teach a grappler how to grapple, but even with my limited judo knowledge if you reach that far across the front of an opponent on one leg whilst they still have two on the ground you can expect to eat mat face first with them on your back. It happens time and time again in Judo matches all over the world at every level.

[YouKnowWho]

Just as an observation, and far be it from me to try to teach a grappler how to grapple, but even with my limited judo knowledge if you reach that far across the front of an opponent on one leg whilst they still have two on the ground you can expect to eat mat face first with them on your back. It happens time and time again in Judo matches all over the world at every level.

This is an excellent observation. This is why the following 3 requirements are important:

- Your run down momentum.
- Your Tinjin (sensitivity) from you and your opponent's body contact.
- Your ability to reverse your throwing direction.

When your body is moving along with your opponent's body, you will need to sense which direction that he intends to resist. If you feel strong resistence against the direction that you are moving to, such that you feel your right arm can't make his body to bend to his right (collapse his structure), you will immediately reverse your attacking direction. You borrow his resistence force, your under hook arm then quickly slide down below his left knee. You then use your head (or left hand) to push his upper body to throw him backward.

Most of the time, which direction that you will throw your opponent is not up to you, but up to which direction that your opponent is going to resist (or yield). You then borrow your opponent's resistence force and add your force to achieve A + B > A. Just make sure that your reverse direction throw doesn't require too much "hands position change", because you don't have much time.

When you reverse your throwing direction, and you can still feel strong resistence (your opponent can react to your force very fast), you can change back as A -> B -> A. Who is going to win in that sequence depends on who has better skill.

I don't have clip for that. Here is a picture.

http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/1692/reversekneeseize.jpg

Also when you move forward, you will have chance to use your righ leg to attack his:

1st side - the outside of his left leg (foot sweep - Kosoto Gari).
2nd side - the inside of his left leg (leg twist - Kawazu gake).
3rd side - the inside of his right leg (inner heel sweep - Kouchi Gari).
4th side - the outside of his right leg (front cut - Osoto Gari).

Before you can reach to his 4th side, you will have 3 options to attack by using differenct throwing technique.

Depending on your Tinjin, you can also move infront of him or behind of him (instead of across of him). Your hand can also change from under hook into waist surround and attack his:

front door - infrontof him (hip throw - Koshi Guruma)
back door - behind him (embrace - Ushiro Goshi)

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1176781]You don't know me and you make such assumption. Those 3 Ip Men students did not have comercial school. There were just UT (University of Texas at Austin) students like me.


((Of course I don't know you.And you don't know me.Just a discussion list discussion. I went by what you said. Shows that your wing chun back ground
is too minimal to be making grand comparisons of wing chun , in my opinion of course.
There was no major student if Ip Man himself that I know of named Law. There was a Law who studied some with wsl and came to the US as a student. Perhaps he is the one you say was a a student at UT and taught some wc and long fist in a class. Fine for personal experience but imo not enough to make analysis of fook and tan - for your own hook and glue analogy. I enjoy your shuai chao related comments,))



Liang Ting came to Austin and taught one of my Karate friend RICHARD 'TIGER' GUERRA That was back 1980.

((There is a history there-irrelevant for the thread))

[wingchunIan]

This is an excellent observation. This is why the following 3 requirements are important:

- Your run down momentum.
- Your Tinjin (sensitivity) from you and your opponent's body contact.
- Your ability to reverse your throwing direction.

When your body is moving along with your opponent's body, you will need to sense which direction that he intends to resist. If you feel strong resistence against the direction that you are moving to, such that you feel your right arm can't make his body to bend to his right (collapse his structure), you will immediately reverse your attacking direction. You borrow his resistence force, your under hook arm then quickly slide down below his left knee. You then use your head (or left hand) to push his upper body to throw him backward.

Most of the time, which direction that you will throw your opponent is not up to you, but up to which direction that your opponent is going to resist (or yield). You then borrow your opponent's resistence force and add your force to achieve A + B > A. Just make sure that your reverse direction throw doesn't require too much "hands position change", because you don't have much time.

When you reverse your throwing direction, and you can still feel strong resistence (your opponent can react to your force very fast), you can change back as A -> B -> A. Who is going to win in that sequence depends on who has better skill.

I don't have clip for that. Here is a picture.

http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/1692/reversekneeseize.jpg

Also when you move forward, you will have chance to use your righ leg to attack his:

1st side - the outside of his left leg (foot sweep - Kosoto Gari).
2nd side - the inside of his left leg (leg twist - Kawazu gake).
3rd side - the inside of his right leg (inner heel sweep - Kouchi Gari).
4th side - the outside of his right leg (front cut - Osoto Gari).

Before you can reach to his 4th side, you will have 3 options to attack by using differenct throwing technique.

Depending on your Tinjin, you can also move infront of him or behind of him (instead of across of him). Your hand can also change from under hook into waist surround and attack his:

front door - infrontof him (hip throw - Koshi Guruma)
back door - behind him (embrace - Ushiro Goshi)

Maybe, it just looks to me like trying to force fit a technique that you're out of range to pull off, but then again it's equally possible that I'm wrong as grappling isn't my area of expertise.

[YouKnowWho]

Maybe, it just looks to me like trying to force fit a technique that you're out of range to pull off, but then again it's equally possible that I'm wrong as grappling isn't my area of expertise.

This is the major difference between the "Judo approach" and the "Chinese wrestling approach".

In Judo, you want to use the minimum amount of force to achieve the maximum amount result. That's why the Judo is also called "the way of softness".

The Chinese wrestling is a "sport for strength". You force your technique to work. This will give your opponent 2 options, either fight againt you or yield into you. In either cases, you have just forced your opponent to make a certain commitment. This is why Chinese wrestler may attack aggressively. You don't wait for your opponent to give anything to you. You give to your oponent. You then try to take away from him.

[Robinhood]

This is the major difference between the "Judo approach" and the "Chinese wrestling approach".

In Judo, you want to use the minimum amount of force to achieve the maximum amount result. That's why the Judo is also called "the way of softness".

The Chinese wrestling is a "sport for strength". You force your technique to work. This will give your opponent 2 options, either fight againt you or yield into you. In either cases, you have just forced your opponent to make a certain commitment. This is why Chinese wrestler may attack aggressively. You don't wait for your opponent to give anything to you. You give to your oponent. You then try to take away from him.

How does that work if you are slower and weaker ?

[YouKnowWho]

How does that work if you are slower and weaker ?

I'll say to get fast and strong. If your body get tangled with your opponent like this, slower may not be your problem but weaker will be.

http://img859.imageshack.us/img859/982/deadlock.png

[desertwingchun2]

-------------------------------------------------------------------
You Know Who:
No direct Ip man student taught in Austin to the best of my knowledge, You worked out with some students way down the line and assume that you know wing chun.
So you say "to the best of your knowledge". Well obviously you are not the guy who knows every single student of Yip Man because ....


You don't know me and you make such assumption. Those 3 Ip Men students did not have comercial school. There were just UT (University of Texas at Austin) students like me.
When I started my UT Kung Fu Information class back in 1973, Jeffery Law taught WC for the 1st hour and I taught longfist for the 2nd hour. Please check with UT informal class official record if you want to. Jeffery Law gradulated from UT with a PhD degree in the field of "Operation Research". Last time I knew, he was a prefessor in some Texas university. The reason that got me interested in WC was I sparred with his brother ??? Law, .......
If your teacher is one of Ip Man's students (I assume you didn't learn directly from Ip Man - I could be wrong), you can ask him whether Jeffery Law and his brother ??? Law are Ip Men's students. I can't remember the 3rd person's name. I don't believe back in 1973 (Bruce Lee was still alive), there were any Ip Men students who could be 2 generation down. It would be very difficult to find anybody from Ip Men's students back in 1973.

So after he tells you the guys names, when, where, and what they practiced you change to "no major student".



There was no major student if Ip Man himself that I know of named Law.

So instead of reinforcing the arrogant attitude you have stuck yourself with here on this forum, why not just admit the guy had training from Yip Man direct student?

I don't know Youknowwho but, I say he has all the right to say "In yo face!!!"

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=desertwingchun2;1177072]

So instead of reinforcing the arrogant attitude you have stuck yourself with here on this forum, why not just admit the guy had training from Yip Man direct student?

---------------------You did not read carefully- but rattle on with your personal comments on "attitude"!!

[JPinAZ]

So you say "to the best of your knowledge". Well obviously you are not the guy who knows every single student of Yip Man because ....

So after he tells you the guys names, when, where, and what they practiced you change to "no major student".

So instead of reinforcing the arrogant attitude you have stuck yourself with here on this forum, why not just admit the guy had training from Yip Man direct student?

I don't know Youknowwho but, I say he has all the right to say "In yo face!!!"

Probably because his ego and sense of greatness/all-knowningness wouldn't allow it? IMO he talks as muche 'krap as most here, he just just does it in a way to leave himself an out to be able to say 'poor me, I didn't say that!' or that your making 'personal attacks' or some other nonsense when someone calls him out on doing the exact same thing.
Or he simply pu55ies out and ignores the question entirely when cornered.

My other guess is there are some here that feel threatened (or confused) by what YKW has to say and does (since he has actual skill in what he says and bases his oppinion accorgingly). So, they try to put him down by saying he doesn't know WCK and make themselves feel better. So what if YKW didn't know WC? Does that mean his experience and knowledge should be discarded?
IMO, we should welcome a viewpoint that comes from another art other than WCK! Same thing in training. But there are still some that find it safer to just train/live in their safe little world/kwoon training with locked doors and the binds pulled shut and pretend the world isn't out there. Obviously, the same goes on here. :rolleyes:

[desertwingchun2]

[QUOTE=desertwingchun2;1177072]

So instead of reinforcing the arrogant attitude you have stuck yourself with here on this forum, why not just admit the guy had training from Yip Man direct student?

---------------------You did not read carefully- but rattle on with your personal comments on "attitude"!!

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Well I read carefully enough to see you called him out, he put you in your place and has too much class to say "In yo face!!!"

No skin off my hide, go ahead and pretend you didn't get checked but, he did in fact accomplish the internet equivalent to - slappin' the stank out your mouf!!

I bet your buddy Handjob feels good that someone else is getting called out on their BS and not the YellowPickachu.

Happy 4th of July!!

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=desertwingchun2;1177092][QUOTE=

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Well I read carefully enough to see you called him out, he put you in your place and has too much class to say "In yo face!!!"

========================================

Rolleyes?! Sorry you didn't get it.The gentle man does not have much wing chun training- specially to be comparing fook and tan to hook and glue.If he talks about shuai chao I am all ears.I don't care to be "in his face" using your terms.

I ignore the sarcasm and the attempt at humor. Cheers and bye.

[YouKnowWho]

to be comparing fook and tan to hook and glue.

Why do you think that Tan shou is not glue (touch) and Fu Shou is not hook? Do you think at 1.05 in this clip can be Fu Shou? Do you think that Tan Shou can also be changed into "hook" if you want to (as showning in 1.48)? The reason that you want to change "glue" into "hook" because you want to "pull yourself into your opppnent".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1M7M7rLxcYg

[Hendrik]

Why do you think that Tan shou is not glue (touch) and Fu Shou is not hook? Do you think at 1.05 in this clip can be Fu Shou? Do you think that Tan Shou can also be changed into "hook" if you want to (as showning in 1.48)? The reason that you want to change "glue" into "hook" because you want to "pull yourself into your opppnent".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1M7M7rLxcYg


Joy,

Leave this for the JPinAZ and desertwingchun2 , the WCK experts to answer.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1177119]Why do you think that Tan shou is not glue (touch) and Fu Shou is not hook? Do you think at 1.05 in this clip can be Fu Shou? Do you think that Tan Shou can also be changed into "hook" if you want to (as showning in 1.48)? The reason that you want to change "glue" into "hook" because you want to "pull yourself into your opppnent".
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for your question.
I was actually at that demo by the late Brendan Lai. He was from a branch of praying mantis(not southern). The body structure and principles are quite different from wing chun. His art is more side-bodied and more using one hand at a time.

Wing chun is more square bodied allowing both hands to be used cooperatively.Tan and fook are seeds of motion -they are not fixed techniques in dealing with fixed attacks. Either one can be used for various functions and they can change rapidly and -are not limited to glue and hook.

In the Brendal Lai clip you show- in dealing with the posed attacks, I would have the center covered by my linked hand and body structure,take a wing chun step(footwork) and punch him out. (No "chain " punching).His own momentum would help bring him to me.

[YouKnowWho]

[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1177119]Why do you think that Tan shou is not glue (touch) and Fu Shou is not hook? Do you think at 1.05 in this clip can be Fu Shou? Do you think that Tan Shou can also be changed into "hook" if you want to (as showning in 1.48)? The reason that you want to change "glue" into "hook" because you want to "pull yourself into your opppnent".
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for your question.
I was actually at that demo by the late Brendan Lai. He was from a branch of praying mantis(not southern). The body structure and principles are quite different from wing chun. His art is more side-bodied and more using one hand at a time.

Wing chun is more square bodied allowing both hands to be used cooperatively.Tan and fook are seeds of motion -they are not fixed techniques in dealing with fixed attacks. Either one can be used for various functions and they can change rapidly and -are not limited to glue and hook.

In the Brendal Lai clip you show- in dealing with the posed attacks, I would have the center covered by my linked hand and body structure,take a wing chun step(footwork) and punch him out. (No "chain " punching).His own momentum would help bring him to me.
Thanks for your opinion. Agree that the "side-bodied" change thing quite a bit.

[LoneTiger108]

Wing chun is more square bodied allowing both hands to be used cooperatively.Tan and fook are seeds of motion -they are not fixed techniques in dealing with fixed attacks. Either one can be used for various functions and they can change rapidly and -are not limited to glue and hook.

An interesting observation but somewhat influenced by your own life long learning of Ginsan Wing Chun methods Joy. Pinsan and Juksan are solid Wing Chun methods too, it's just not concentrated on as much since the introduction of Ip Mans teaching ideas.

I don't like using other systems terms for what we do either because I believe half the problem within our system are language based inconsistencies, which are not helped by throwing other systems terms into the mix! But I do appreciate some of the older systems, like Shuai Shou, as they have all had an influence on Wing Chun IMHO. Possibly more than we would care to accept these days, especially if we get drawn into thinking we know everything already.

[Hendrik]

For wck stratgy of the art, Tan sau is to deliver tan jing . Fok sau is to deliver fok jing.

Ching San or lien san. WCK is WCK. They all uses the same technics , tan jing and fok jing. The different is in positioning.

Those wck technics are very different compare with the ykw exampes of northern mantis in tem of technics and jing.


In the YKT layer five term. The strategy of the art is different, thus the positioning and technics are different, and the supporting force vector and momentum handling are different.