Advice on knuckle and forearm conditioning

[MadAx]

Hi everyone,

My name is Damian, I am 25, I have no experience whatsoever in martial arts and I have recently taken up some self-defense classes mainly based on principles/techniques from judo, jiujitsu, karate, shaolin kung fu, wing chun.

>> I started conditioning my forearms and fists (knuckles) in order to improve my blocking and punching skills, but also to boost my mental capital.
I currently follow this routine three times a week:
- Regular push-ups (20reps)
- Knuckles push-ups (20reps)
- Roller bar method on forearms with a broom stick (10 min)
- Punches on sandbag with the fist (2 min per hand)
- Punches on sandbag with the back of the hand (2 min per hand)

This routine is only the starting point and I intend to up the reps and series progressively every 2 or 3 months. I would appreciate if you could provide me with some feedback, tips or advice? Please feel free to let me know what you think.

>> Also I wanted to ask you a few questions on dit da jow.
> I understand the purpose and benefits of DDJ, and I get it at nearby Chinese grocery store. However, these are sold in plastic bottles. I have seen on the internet warnings about that, is that so dangerous?
> In any case, I would like to make my own DDJ, do you have any recipes?
> Last question on the frequency of applications: I understand that the bare minimum is to apply at least before and after the training. Would it be a good idea to apply some during the day too? Also, considering my routine, should I apply some on the days when I do not train?

Many thanks for all your advice.
Damian

[Lucas]

Take a look at some of these threads here: Iron Palm Thread Search (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/search.php?searchid=3809278)

[David Jamieson]

The type of plastic used is the non-leeching type these days. Technology has improved greatly even in the last 5 years.

Use a heavy bag instead of a sandbag. Sandbags compress and become concrete and have no give. No give = bad for your hand. Watch a slo-mo of any break and you will see directly the stresses the hand is placed under when striking hard surfaces.

Go slow, take your time, develop an art and don't rush. If you rush you drop things, take shortcuts and in the end all you really have is a mish mash bag of **** instead of a martial art worth keeping.

:)

[MadAx]

Thank you for all your assistance, and sorry for not using the search browser.
Next time I have questions I will check it out!

Be well.
Damian

[Lucas]

Thank you for all your assistance, and sorry for not using the search browser.
Next time I have questions I will check it out!

Be well.
Damian

Dont be sorry. I only post the search find because i am no expert on this but would like to give you a starting point to help with. i hope you find some good things in there. i think if you have further questions, you should post them in this thread. there are several knowledgable people here that can answer many things you might ask.

good luck!!

[bawang]

without proper instruction you might cripple your forearms if you try to do "iron arm". if you insist, then lightly tap them against each other.


the most basic kung fu forearm training is locking skill. you just randomly knock your forearms against each other. start with 5 times and increase by 1 every day. dont hit the tendons, lightly tap. this excercise is retard proof.

[IronFist]

- Roller bar method on forearms with a broom stick (10 min)

Do not do it this way.

Bone conditioning and the ability to deliver and receive strikes without pain comes from impact against the bone making it more dense (Wolff's law).

By just scraping a broom stick on the surface you are going to deaden the nerves but you won't actually get any of the conditioning effect because there is no impact. So you'll be able to withstand more contact without pain, but you might end up getting hurt in the process because no conditioning has taken place.

Two better methods are:

1) get an "iron body bag." I don't know about martialartsmart's (sorry Gene) but I know Wing Lam makes good ones. The beginner one is filled with mung beans and is like $20. Hit yourself in the forearm with it 15 times a day total, inside, top, bottom, outside. Start soft, and don't try to go too hard. If you bruise it means you went too hard, and don't train the area around the bruise until it is completely healed. Over the months you can increase the force with which you hit yourself. After 6 months when you are hitting yourself pretty hard, you can start to increase the reps one per week if you want.

The key is slow progress. Slow.

2) hit your forearms together. Be aware of how you're doing this. Outside-to-inside will hurt a lot more than bottom-to-inside. Keep it consistent.

Or you can do both, warm up by hitting your forearms together and then use the bags.

After each session spend 5-10 minutes massaging your forearms. Rub them together, rotating your forearms at the elbow as you do so so all parts of them rub up against all parts of the other forearms. Do not skip this step. Use dit da jow during this step if you have any.

Some of your forearm hair may come out over time from the friction of the massage :o



>> Also I wanted to ask you a few questions on dit da jow.
> I understand the purpose and benefits of DDJ, and I get it at nearby Chinese grocery store. However, these are sold in plastic bottles. I have seen on the internet warnings about that, is that so dangerous?

I think it depends on the ingredients. Certain ingredients may leach things from the plastic into the formula. Hopefully if it comes in a plastic bottle they don't have any of those ingredients in it. Wing Lam's comes in plastic bottles and everyone swears that it is some of the best on the market.



> Last question on the frequency of applications: I understand that the bare minimum is to apply at least before and after the training. Would it be a good idea to apply some during the day too? Also, considering my routine, should I apply some on the days when I do not train?


When I did iron forearm training (Wing Lam style) I only applied the jow after the training session right before the massage. I did this at the beginning of my training so it would soak in or whatever during the rest of it (about an hour or so), and then I took a shower afterward.

To be honest I never noticed anything from the jow. I used it because "you're supposed to," and everyone always talked about how great WL's jow was, but sometimes I would put some on one bruise and nothing on another bruise and there was never any difference in how quickly they healed. And if there was, I would've noticed. I wanted to believe it worked so badly. I was one of those "TMA is awesome and too deadly for the ring and I can beat MMA people" type of guys (until I got schooled by MMA noobs, but that's a different story). I wanted to believe that TCM was better than western medicine and that jow was secret healing potion that non-CMA guys just weren't enlightened enough to know about. So if there had been the slightest difference between using it and not using it, I would've noticed.

But regardless, forearm conditioning is real and not some mystic TMA nonsense, and the scientific methods behind why it works can be explained. And do the massage, too.

So did the jow help? I dunno, maybe.

Would I use it if I was going to do forearm conditioning again? I dunno, maybe.

I'd leave out the qigong component, though. I don't think you need that in order to get the conditioning. I know you didn't mention it, but it was part of the training I did. It was maybe a good warm up but that's it. There was no mystic power flowing through my arms helping to protect me from strikes (even though I believed there was at the time).

[sanjuro_ronin]

Follow the advice that has been given here.
Slow and easy is the way to go.
My okinawan and japanese brothers dropped that ball with how they (typicallY) teach makiwara work, it is NOT supposed to be done hard, but just allowing from a natural inpact with and east flow of momentum, just enough to make hard contact but NOT as hard as possible.
With "iron" training it is a bit more complex, but again, nice and slow is the way to go.
There are a few here with great DVD's and Jow that you can buy from them.
There is Dale Dugas ( his stuff is top notch)
Plumdragon ( Top notch stuff as well)
And Rod from youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/user/tao123chi

[Dale Dugas]

Thanks for the kind words, Paul.

Slow and steady wins the race.

I have been training my hands for over 20 years and have no health issues.

I am a licensed acupuncturist and herbalist and need to pick up very thin needles.

Also Wing Lam sells dit da jow medicine that is rather weak when compared to my own. I am not impressed at all that he also sells what he terms triple strength when in reality its normal strength and the regular strength is watered down in comparison.

I have the softest baby hands, but when I have to they can do what has to be done. This is from using powerful medicines that do what they are supposed to do.

Let me know how I can be of service to anyone seeking out the best herbs at the best prices.

[IronFist]

Also Wing Lam sells dit da jow medicine that is rather weak when compared to my own. I am not impressed at all that he also sells what he terms triple strength when in reality its normal strength and the regular strength is watered down in comparison.


Maybe that's why I never noticed it having any effect.

This was over 10 years ago before they started selling the 3x strength stuff so I never had a chance to try that.

I've never tried any other kinds so I have nothing to compare it against.

Double blind studies?

FWIW I never really noticed a difference when using arnica gel vs not using anything, either.

[MadAx]

Hi all,

Thanks very much indeed for all these tips, appreciate the feedback.

TRAINING ROUTINE
I will stick to the push-ups and punches and I will drop the rollerbar method.
Although it seems like the simplest, the technique where you knock your forearms against each other looks too dangerous given that I do my training on my own. However I will probably get myself an iron body training bag (mug beans) and kick off this journey towards iron forearms. Which brings me to a question: when hitting the forearm with the bag, should I tense it or keep it loose?

As for punches, David Jamieson, you mentioned that heavy bags are better than sand bags given that they provide more ‘’give’’. Is this related to the fact that a heavy bag is hanging? If I hang my sandbag onto a wall, would it then allow for more ‘’give’’, would it be okay?

I will definitely keep in mind the ‘’slow’’ part. I suppose the fact that I cannot go for a daily training (only 2 or 3 times a week) will actually help build up progressively.

DIT DA JOW
I will include some massaging after applying DDJ.
In terms of frequency, as I mentioned above I cannot train every day. Should I still apply DDJ on days where I do not train?

Thanks again!
Damian

[Dale Dugas]

On the days you do not train very much you can use a little DDJ. But use it more when you train hard and feel sore, etc...

[Raipizo]

Hi all,

Thanks very much indeed for all these tips, appreciate the feedback.

TRAINING ROUTINE
I will stick to the push-ups and punches and I will drop the rollerbar method.
Although it seems like the simplest, the technique where you knock your forearms against each other looks too dangerous given that I do my training on my own. However I will probably get myself an iron body training bag (mug beans) and kick off this journey towards iron forearms. Which brings me to a question: when hitting the forearm with the bag, should I tense it or keep it loose?

As for punches, David Jamieson, you mentioned that heavy bags are better than sand bags given that they provide more ‘’give’’. Is this related to the fact that a heavy bag is hanging? If I hang my sandbag onto a wall, would it then allow for more ‘’give’’, would it be okay?

I will definitely keep in mind the ‘’slow’’ part. I suppose the fact that I cannot go for a daily training (only 2 or 3 times a week) will actually help build up progressively.

DIT DA JOW
I will include some massaging after applying DDJ.
In terms of frequency, as I mentioned above I cannot train every day. Should I still apply DDJ on days where I do not train?

Thanks again!
Damian

Yeah how isn't needed for non iron training really, maybe on bruises from the training itself. I dont think even a hanging sandbag would be good. It becomes very hard when compacted and you can't loosen it very easily if it's in a bag. The arm knocking is not dangerous at all just do a figure 8 pattern your left arm hits the right arm then swing the right to hit the left on top and gradually move up and down the tops of the arms. I had no problem starting at about 40 total for that. Just don't slam your arms hard a little force is okay, then I move to my iron arm bag, the same one suggested. I follow the Wing lam method and I just ordered ddj from Dale, it's way cheaper in the long run to make your own. You might wanna dabble in iron palm also. Good luck and feel free to ask if you have more questions :D

[Raipizo]

I meant to say Jow in the first line

[Raipizo]

Also I keep my arms tensed during the training as per the wing lam DVD I forgot to address that question or you. Just form a tight fist, loosen when your arm gets tired and just continue in a few seconds when you regain strength.

[ginosifu]

Maybe that's why I never noticed it having any effect.

This was over 10 years ago before they started selling the 3x strength stuff so I never had a chance to try that.

I've never tried any other kinds so I have nothing to compare it against.

Double blind studies?

IronFist: Try Jow from different sources. You should buy a bottle from Dale, try it out see what are the results. Try bottle from me, see what the affect is. There are lots of online places that sell jow. Sometimes different jows smell different or have a different feel (viscous or liquidy etc), sometimes jow has a different affect on your body, sometimes different jows cause rashes on some people.

Experiment and see what you like

ginosifu

[IronFist]

Which brings me to a question: when hitting the forearm with the bag, should I tense it or keep it loose?

The Wing Lam iron body training program says to make a fist and they keep it pretty tight. Supposed to lock in the qi or something.

Just make a fist. It doesn't have to be SUPER tight and tensed but not completely relaxed.


As for punches, David Jamieson, you mentioned that heavy bags are better than sand bags given that they provide more ‘’give’’. Is this related to the fact that a heavy bag is hanging? If I hang my sandbag onto a wall, would it then allow for more ‘’give’’, would it be okay?

A sandbag is good for training the fist but not really for getting used to throwing a punch. A heavy bag weighs more and will get your body used to the shock that comes from striking something with a punch. A sandbag or a bag filled with beans, even if attached to the wall, does not accurately do this.


I will definitely keep in mind the ‘’slow’’ part. I suppose the fact that I cannot go for a daily training (only 2 or 3 times a week) will actually help build up progressively.

You don't have 10 minutes every day to do forearm training (3 minutes warmup, 2 minutes hitting (probably less), 5 minutes self-massage)?


Should I still apply DDJ on days where I do not train?

What Dale said.

[Raipizo]

Yeah it doesn't take long to do iron training. You should try to exercise more even a few minutes a couple times a day is better than nothing

[MadAx]

I definitely can make room for a training everyday, and I will get myself a heavy bag, too.
I'm finally ready for action! Thanks for your feedback.

[JamesC]

Dale's jow works amazingly.

The only thing I would change about it is the smell. It smells terrible, lol.

[David Jamieson]

Dale's jow works amazingly.

The only thing I would change about it is the smell. It smells terrible, lol.

I have yet to find a pleasant smelling ddj that is effective as well.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Dale's jow works amazingly.

The only thing I would change about it is the smell. It smells terrible, lol.

What liquid do you use?
I use vodka and notice that the smell is not as bad as when I used to use whiskey.
I also notice that rice wine makes for a horrific smell ( but a lot cheaper of course).

[bawang]

jow doesnt really matter. bone hardening is not like muscle training.

if you lift a tiny baby dumbell you will never get strong. you need to lift big weights. people make the mistake assuming this is also the same with conditioning, that you need to hit hard to get hard hands.

lightly hitting doesnt plateau unlike weight lifting. this is the so called "secret method" of iron palm.

[sanjuro_ronin]

jow doesnt really matter. bone hardening is not like muscle training.

if you lift a tiny baby dumbell you will never get strong. you need to lift big weights. people make the mistake assuming this is also the same with conditioning, that you need to hit hard to get hard hands.

lightly hitting doesnt plateau unlike weight lifting. this is the so called "secret method" of iron palm.

Jow matters in that it takes care of the bruising faster and keeps one hands baby soft :p

[ginosifu]

What liquid do you use?
I use vodka and notice that the smell is not as bad as when I used to use whiskey.
I also notice that rice wine makes for a horrific smell ( but a lot cheaper of course).

I use vodka myself.... however, rice wine is too expensive here.


jow doesnt really matter. bone hardening is not like muscle training. lightly hitting doesnt plateau unlike weight lifting. this is the so called "secret method" of iron palm.

Jow is quite imortant... many of the ingredients heal bone bruises, thicken skin, muscle, ligament and even bone tissue. I never thought to take pics of before and after of my hand, but if you were touch my hands you would feel the difference between mine and a person how never hit.

ginosifu

[MadAx]

Hi all,

I would like to get some dit da jow. With all the great feedback I heard on Dale's jow, I immediately checked out his website.
http://www.coilingdragon.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=50&zenid=a4cfdbefafafeca5618e0af61bafbb5f

Now I am wondering which one is best considering the abovementioned routine I have?

Thanks
Damian

[mooyingmantis]

I also use vodka as the alcohol base.

This bruise:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150956952699481&set=a.291583389480.141313.750549480&type=1&theater

was gone in nearly three days after the application of my jow.

My student just decided to try the jow we use for iron palm on the bruise to see what effect it would have. He was pleasantly surprised. :)

BTW, I get my herbs from Josh at Plum Dragon: http://plumdragonherbs.com/

[ShaolinDan]

Dit da helps, though probably more for some people than others. Also, don't underestimate the importance of qigong (or massage). It enhances blood flow, which enhances healing, also (call me "wu-wu" if you must), when you do all that hitting, it's important to do something to help balance your psyche.

[MightyB]

I've nearly perfected the moose knuckle technique!

[Raipizo]

Hi all,

I would like to get some dit da jow. With all the great feedback I heard on Dale's jow, I immediately checked out his website.
http://www.coilingdragon.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=50&zenid=a4cfdbefafafeca5618e0af61bafbb5f

Now I am wondering which one is best considering the abovementioned routine I have?

Thanks
Damian

I wouldn't suggest premade unless maybe for a trial to see how you like it.

[MadAx]

Yeah how isn't needed for non iron training really, maybe on bruises from the training itself. I dont think even a hanging sandbag would be good. It becomes very hard when compacted and you can't loosen it very easily if it's in a bag. The arm knocking is not dangerous at all just do a figure 8 pattern your left arm hits the right arm then swing the right to hit the left on top and gradually move up and down the tops of the arms. I had no problem starting at about 40 total for that. Just don't slam your arms hard a little force is okay, then I move to my iron arm bag, the same one suggested. I follow the Wing lam method and I just ordered ddj from Dale, it's way cheaper in the long run to make your own. You might wanna dabble in iron palm also. Good luck and feel free to ask if you have more questions :D

Thank you all for your advice.
I have a quick question on the ''figure 8 pattern''. Would you happen to know where I can find visuals/videos of this exercise? I have no idea how it is (and should) be performed?

Many thanks again
Damien

[jmd161]

without proper instruction you might cripple your forearms if you try to do "iron arm". if you insist, then lightly tap them against each other.


the most basic kung fu forearm training is locking skill. you just randomly knock your forearms against each other. start with 5 times and increase by 1 every day. dont hit the tendons, lightly tap. this excercise is retard proof.


yeah be careful with this stuff... my training brother broke his arm going too hard against a wooden dummy (actually a 8ft tree stump cut and turned smooth)

[Raipizo]

I just tried looking around for it and couldn't did anything. I will try to elaborate okay imagine as a figure 8 one side of the eight is the left arm. And one side is the right arm. One arm will be traveling in an arc so a sweeping motion say you start with your left arm. You hold your right arm ahead of you say waist level, not way up at shoulder height but to where it's comfortable. You start at that neutral position both arms out you sweep your left arm in a clockwise arc it doesn't have to be a huge dramatized over the head swing just make a full circle like and hit the bottom area of your left arm just below the elbow on the top of your right, so same spot just reversed side. Then take your right arm. Swing it course clockwise and hit it in the same area where it was just struck so your getting the equal conditioning on the same area both arms. And repeat this progressing it slowly down your arms until you get to the wrist. I would say when you get toward the wrist be more fragile. The tendons are frail as are your veins. I hope this helped. Also your arms do not need to be tensed at all to do this. Feel free to post if you need more explanation or assistance. I will try to find a video to help you out

[Raipizo]

http://tbfl.web.fc2.com/lock.html I found a picture here with the two arms. Don't follow those instructions but you see the format of how you strike there. Just put the movement in there and that's what I mean.

[jmd161]

a simple way to condition the arms... we actually did this in my black tiger training. Start out with about 15-20 chopsticks or small dowels. Wrap them in rubberbands at each end. Slowly bang them up and down your arms and as you get acustomed to it bang a little harder!

As you get use to it you can increase the size of the dowels (thickness) and continue the same routine. You'd be surprised how well this works... just don't rush this type of training because you can hurt yourself and maybe do some nerve damage.

[Raipizo]

I recommend
1. getting the beating bags from wle. Beginner and then gravel intermediate.
2. Get jow, I ordered from Dale at coilingdragon and if you do this I recommend the Fukien shaolin recipe along with the premade of it (making the joe takes several weeks for it just to start beginning to get ready) also if you order the how kit get a large glass jar I use a gallon pickle jar. Plastic will leak chemicals into the jow

Let me know what you plan to do, I myself know how It is to need assistance and am eager to help you

[IronFist]

a simple way to condition the arms... we actually did this in my black tiger training. Start out with about 15-20 chopsticks or small dowels. Wrap them in rubberbands at each end. Slowly bang them up and down your arms and as you get acustomed to it bang a little harder!

As you get use to it you can increase the size of the dowels (thickness) and continue the same routine. You'd be surprised how well this works... just don't rush this type of training because you can hurt yourself and maybe do some nerve damage.

That may lack the density to get sufficient increases in bone density. It's kind of like scraping the bottle up and down your shins that some people do. It increases pain tolerance but you don't necessarily get the actual conditioning effect.

Also, I wrote out the entire routine in post 7 :)

[MadAx]

I recommend
1. getting the beating bags from wle. Beginner and then gravel intermediate.
2. Get jow, I ordered from Dale at coilingdragon and if you do this I recommend the Fukien shaolin recipe along with the premade of it (making the joe takes several weeks for it just to start beginning to get ready) also if you order the how kit get a large glass jar I use a gallon pickle jar. Plastic will leak chemicals into the jow

Let me know what you plan to do, I myself know how It is to need assistance and am eager to help you

Hi Raipizo,
It's funny that you should say that, I just received my beginner training bag from wle. And I should receive jow from Dale in a few days. I went for some Ounce Blue Dragon Massage/Tui Na Oil. I figured I would try it out and see how it goes.
Good times ahead!

Thanks for the description of the exercise and the visual aid, I'll keep this whole exercise in the back of my mind and focus on training bag.

[jmd161]

That may lack the density to get sufficient increases in bone density. It's kind of like scraping the bottle up and down your shins that some people do. It increases pain tolerance but you don't necessarily get the actual conditioning effect.

Also, I wrote out the entire routine in post 7 :)

I was trying to give a starting point... not give an inexperienced person without a teacher more advanced methods without supervision. Just offering my .02 cents to the discussion.:)

[Raipizo]

Not to make you seem in a rush but the premade jow will only last a bit covering the entire forearm.So maybe see how you like that kind and if you like it order bulk size, or try another. Dale recommended the Fukien Shaolin to me for the iron palm and body but that's all on your preference. If you need help on how to make the jow and apply it feel free to ask. And post some progress on your training :D

[MadAx]

I would love to make my own DDJ.
I’ve run a search, I’ve found some nice insight/tips on the forum and I’ve found the following on the web: http://www.aikidofaq.com/making/dit_da_jao.html
This link provides good advice on how to proceed but I do not know what herbs/alcohol to select. Considering my routine (previously described), would you have any recommendations on the herbs and alcohol to use? I will go to a local Chinese medicine shop to get these.

As I am writing, I can think of two other questions –apologies if they sound trivial or naive.
1- Having a Western perspective on sports and martial arts, I find it difficult to understand that you can train every day without damaging your body in the medium/long term. I recall several of my P.E. teachers mentioning that muscles and joints needed a rest of at least 24h between exercises. Although I am definitely not going too hard on my body, I would like to make sure that I am not heading for some pains/injuries leading to long term issues with my body (arthritis, etc.). The whole philosophy behind conditioning sort of contradicts my approach, and I would appreciate to get your views on it based on your experience and your knowledge.
2- You all made it clear that the key in proper conditioning lies in going for a progressive routine (number of reps, strength, etc.), not rushing things out, taking it slow. Therefore, I am wondering: whenever you cannot follow your routine for, say 1 week, how do you handle it? Do you just resume it as if you did not stop it, or do you go easy for a period?

Many thanks indeed.
D.

[Dale Dugas]

Buying Chinese herbs from herb stores is a great way to get exposed to mercury, cadmium, and other heavy metals along with other nasty chemicals.

Unless your herb store is testing their herbs or buying from wholesalers who test their herbs, and there are only 3 companies that do this testing on their herbs, you have no idea if your herbs are safe or not.

I only sell tested herbs from those 3 suppliers.

Let me know how I can be of service.

[Raipizo]

I would love to make my own DDJ.
I’ve run a search, I’ve found some nice insight/tips on the forum and I’ve found the following on the web: http://www.aikidofaq.com/making/dit_da_jao.html
This link provides good advice on how to proceed but I do not know what herbs/alcohol to select. Considering my routine (previously described), would you have any recommendations on the herbs and alcohol to use? I will go to a local Chinese medicine shop to get these.

As I am writing, I can think of two other questions –apologies if they sound trivial or naive.
1- Having a Western perspective on sports and martial arts, I find it difficult to understand that you can train every day without damaging your body in the medium/long term. I recall several of my P.E. teachers mentioning that muscles and joints needed a rest of at least 24h between exercises. Although I am definitely not going too hard on my body, I would like to make sure that I am not heading for some pains/injuries leading to long term issues with my body (arthritis, etc.). The whole philosophy behind conditioning sort of contradicts my approach, and I would appreciate to get your views on it based on your experience and your knowledge.
2- You all made it clear that the key in proper conditioning lies in going for a progressive routine (number of reps, strength, etc.), not rushing things out, taking it slow. Therefore, I am wondering: whenever you cannot follow your routine for, say 1 week, how do you handle it? Do you just resume it as if you did not stop it, or do you go easy for a period?

Many thanks indeed.
D.

The conditioning is not very strenuous at all muscles need time to rest but your conditioning the bone and tendon. I would say the muscle slightly as you condition it to feel less pain but not unless you go nuts on your arms you should have no problem. The jow helps to prevent those issues btw, also if you go without a week I just picked up where I was basically. It would take a longer period of time I'd say because you body will be conditioned to it quite well. I imagine it would take some time to lose it. Hopes this helps.

[Faruq]

Buying Chinese herbs from herb stores is a great way to get exposed to mercury, cadmium, and other heavy metals along with other nasty chemicals.

Unless your herb store is testing their herbs or buying from wholesalers who test their herbs, and there are only 3 companies that do this testing on their herbs, you have no idea if your herbs are safe or not.

I only sell tested herbs from those 3 suppliers.

Let me know how I can be of service.

Do you know of any reliable sellers of tested mercury, cadmium, heavy metal and chemical free herbs, Dale?

[Raipizo]

Dale sells some himself. And for the alcohol you can just use cheap 40% vodka. Anything else gets pricey. It might be cheaper to buy Dales jow kits than to buy the herbs individually. Do some shopping around .

[MadAx]

Thanks for the advice, Raipizo.
I was afraid that, over time, doing push-ups every day would harm my joints and muscles. But I suppose dit da jow is my best ally to avoid that.

[Raipizo]

Thanks for the advice, Raipizo.
I was afraid that, over time, doing push-ups every day would harm my joints and muscles. But I suppose dit da jow is my best ally to avoid that.

You will probably want to space out your arm exercise every other day but you don't need to space out iron skill training

[Faruq]

Dale sells some himself. And for the alcohol you can just use cheap 40% vodka. Anything else gets pricey. It might be cheaper to buy Dales jow kits than to buy the herbs individually. Do some shopping around .

Is Dale pretty reliable? How long does it take to get the herbs from him after he gets the money? He won't sit on your money for 3 or 4 weeks before sending out your product or anything like that, will he? I've had that problem before with certain companies, but hopefully that won't happen with members here.

[Raipizo]

Is Dale pretty reliable? How long does it take to get the herbs from him after he gets the money? He won't sit on your money for 3 or 4 weeks before sending out your product or anything like that, will he? I've had that problem before with certain companies, but hopefully that won't happen with members here.

I had a shipping issue only because I typed my address wrong cause of my iPad. He threw in a premade bottle for free due to inconvenience and I got it a few days after it reshipped. He's reliable and answers any questions you need to ask. His jow is pretty good stuff compared to the last one I got from another dealer.

[Faruq]

I had a shipping issue only because I typed my address wrong cause of my iPad. He threw in a premade bottle for free due to inconvenience and I got it a few days after it reshipped. He's reliable and answers any questions you need to ask. His jow is pretty good stuff compared to the last one I got from another dealer.

Okay, cool. I just hate it when you e-mail a business and they don't reply, or reply so you send the money and then they don't send it out for 3 to 4 weeks and don't give you a tracking # or tell you how long its gonna take either. I've always liked Dale though, because he seems so professional and everything. He seems to have great knowledge about Chinese medicine and always ends his posts by asking us to let him know how he can be of service. I mean, if how he shows himself to be in his posts is how he does business, he's got a customer for life, lol! I'll contact him then based on your recommendation. Thanks, buddy! I'll even give him another recommendation (in addition to yours) here on the forum too once I get the goods.

[Dale Dugas]

I let this order fall through the cracks and I apologize for this.

I totally dropped the ball and apologize.

I have been busy getting my clinic up and running.

I have set up a 25% off coupon code for Faruq that is for life. I dropped the ball and the customer should not have to suffer. Just type in Faruq at checkout and you will see the 25% come off your entire order.

I have also just filled the formula he was seeking.

I treated some of the herbs with vinegar and others with wine and fried them.

I added legally obtained and managed Moutain Lion bone to replace the tiger bone commonly used. This was fried in black vinegar and then baked.

I hope this makes up for my total and complete blunder. I will also be sending out some freebies for the total cluter.

Henceforth let us keep all orders through my website and we can track them much easier.

[Raipizo]

I let this order fall through the cracks and I apologize for this.

I totally dropped the ball and apologize.

I have been busy getting my clinic up and running.

I have set up a 25% off coupon code for Faruq that is for life. I dropped the ball and the customer should not have to suffer. Just type in Faruq at checkout and you will see the 25% come off your entire order.

I have also just filled the formula he was seeking.

I treated some of the herbs with vinegar and others with wine and fried them.

I added legally obtained and managed Moutain Lion bone to replace the tiger bone commonly used. This was fried in black vinegar and then baked.

I hope this makes up for my total and complete blunder. I will also be sending out some freebies for the total cluter.

Henceforth let us keep all orders through my website and we can track them much easier.

Who had the problem ordering? I feel a little lost lol And no problem Faruq from one practitioner to another. I am open for any help you need.

[Raipizo]

Also I recommend wle's iron body dvd. Pretty helpful but that's just me.

[IronFist]

As I am writing, I can think of two other questions –apologies if they sound trivial or naive.
1- Having a Western perspective on sports and martial arts, I find it difficult to understand that you can train every day without damaging your body in the medium/long term. I recall several of my P.E. teachers mentioning that muscles and joints needed a rest of at least 24h between exercises. Although I am definitely not going too hard on my body, I would like to make sure that I am not heading for some pains/injuries leading to long term issues with my body (arthritis, etc.). The whole philosophy behind conditioning sort of contradicts my approach, and I would appreciate to get your views on it based on your experience and your knowledge.


It depends on the amount of volume you do.

Think about it like this. Assuming you can normally do 40 pushups, if you do only one pushup how much would that tax your body? Hardly at all, right? You'd be "recovered" in a few minutes.

Now what if you did 10 pushups? Or 20? You'd probably easily be able to do them again tomorrow right?

Now say you do 4 sets to failure. You'll probably be sore tomorrow and it would be a bad idea to train again.

Consider weight lifters. Typical bodybuilding style programs involve a lot of volume, multiple exercises for each muscle, a good number of sets, etc. With that kind of training you need to let the muscle recover before you train it again, and that's why in a typical bodybuilding routine, each muscle is trained once a week.

Now consider some other types of weight lifting programs. For example, some powerlifting routines involve heavy weights, but the volume is very low, and as such, you are able to train the same muscles 5 days a week (eventually you need to take some time off, however). Because the volume is so low, your body recovers quickly.

It will depend based on what your body is capable of. A lot for you may be a little for someone else.

Go by how you feel. If you're sore, don't train that muscle again until the soreness is gone. If you're tired even though you got a lot of sleep, that's your body telling you you might be overdoing it and could be a sign of overtraining.


2- You all made it clear that the key in proper conditioning lies in going for a progressive routine (number of reps, strength, etc.), not rushing things out, taking it slow. Therefore, I am wondering: whenever you cannot follow your routine for, say 1 week, how do you handle it? Do you just resume it as if you did not stop it, or do you go easy for a period?

Many thanks indeed.
D.

In most cases if you have to miss a week it won't hurt anything. Your body probably liked having the time to recover.

[Faruq]

I let this order fall through the cracks and I apologize for this.

I totally dropped the ball and apologize.

I have been busy getting my clinic up and running.

I have set up a 25% off coupon code for Faruq that is for life. I dropped the ball and the customer should not have to suffer. Just type in Faruq at checkout and you will see the 25% come off your entire order.

I have also just filled the formula he was seeking.

I treated some of the herbs with vinegar and others with wine and fried them.

I added legally obtained and managed Moutain Lion bone to replace the tiger bone commonly used. This was fried in black vinegar and then baked.

I hope this makes up for my total and complete blunder. I will also be sending out some freebies for the total cluter.

Henceforth let us keep all orders through my website and we can track them much easier.

Thanks, Dale. If I actually receive the stuff I'll post a recommendation as I said before as soon as I do. This is definitely the Dale I'm used to from here on the forums.

[Raipizo]

Thanks, Dale. As soon as I get the stuff I'll post a recommendation as I said. This is definitely the Dale I'm used to from here on the forums.

Yep he's a good person to deal with.

[SteveLau]

For knuckle conditioning, hitting hard bag will be sufficient. Doing knuckle pushup is also good. But I have not done these for years. As for forearm conditioning, there are way exercises for it. Currently, I do dynamic tension exercise with or without rings. Surely, doing tiger techniques is highly recommended. If you want to advance further, you can do finger pushup. Years ago, I did so too. However, I recommend against doing the exercise with less than five fingers. And also, please do not do it more than three times per week. The reason is risk of injury.



Regards,

KC
Hong Kong

[MadAx]

Many thanks for your suggestions and advice.
IronFist, about doing pushups every day, my fears came from the fact that in the past I used to do at least 60 every day and I remember that a huge pain developed into my elbows after 2 months. At some point, I just couldn’t do a single pushup without feeling pain and I had to give it a huge rest and medication (voltaren). However, I did not know dit da jow by then, so maybe I can go back to this intensity and use jow after each session on the forearm and elbow areas.

As you might have understood already, my biggest fears are not so much on the routine itself but on its “side effects” and possibly unintended consequences for my body. I am really in for a body conditioning routine but I would like to avoid harming my body in the long run (arthritis, osteoporosis, …).

[IronFist]

Many thanks for your suggestions and advice.
IronFist, about doing pushups every day, my fears came from the fact that in the past I used to do at least 60 every day and I remember that a huge pain developed into my elbows after 2 months.

You were overdoing it maybe, or doing too much too soon, or maybe your form wasn't correct. It's entirely possible that 60 pushups a day is too much for you, especially if you were doing multiple sets to failure, etc.

How old are you, and how old were you then? Was your pain diagnosed as anything? Tendonitis?

If you're feeling pain (besides the normal muscle pain the day(s) after) it's time to stop and look at what you might be doing wrong.

[MadAx]

I suppose I just overdid it. I started at 3 sets of 5reps and built up to 3 sets of 60 which was my point of no return (= failure). But I went from 3x5 to 3x60 in 2 months time, this might be the reason why I suffered so quickly. Added to that is the fact that I took no rest whatsoever (not any single day) and I did not apply jow.
The perfect combination for disaster I guess.

Anyway, now you've all enlightened me and I am safe: I will take it slow, use some jow, and make use of a break whenever needed.

[Fa Xing]

You may lack stability in your shoulders, did you ever see a Chiropractor/physical therapist about it?

[MadAx]

This painful episode dates back from 2 years ago, and it has actually been an opportunity for me to learn that patience is essential.
As soon as I had fully recovered, I got back on track doing less pushups less frequently (every other day). I'm doing well, no pain whatsoever, and I am paying much attention to the form and I am not rushing the repetitions.
Do you still think I should consult a physical therapist?

[bawang]

if you are getting old with health problems, you should abandon the fantasy of being a warrior.

[IronFist]

I suppose I just overdid it. I started at 3 sets of 5reps and built up to 3 sets of 60 which was my point of no return (= failure). But I went from 3x5 to 3x60 in 2 months time, this might be the reason why I suffered so quickly. Added to that is the fact that I took no rest whatsoever (not any single day) and I did not apply jow.
The perfect combination for disaster I guess.

I don't think that not applying jow had anything to do with your injury.

You know, 3x60 pushups is pretty good. Most people cannot do that many. You probably just overdid it. If you ever get back to that level there's no reason to do it every day. If you're working out hard enough that you're going to failure, you shouldn't do it every day.

Describe the nature of your injury. Was it muscle? Tendon? Joint? Did it hurt when you bent your elbow or straightened your elbow? Did it hurt only under tension or did it hurt any time you bent/straightened your elbow? You said you got prescribed a painkiller for it; what did the doctor diagnose your problem as?

[MadAx]

I actually did not see a doctor.
A few days before, I already started feeling a pain in the elbow area, so I would take some Arnica montana pills regularly. And when I indeed felt this huge pain, I immediately applied Voltaren gel onto the forearms and elbows regularly throughout the day.

I guess it was related to joints and/or ligaments because I really had a huge pain onto my elbows every time I bent the arms or touched the area. I remember the pain was even greater onto the lateral side of the elbow, probably where the tendons are located.

Lesson taken. Also, I will actually see a physiotherapist to go for a full check-up.

[Faruq]

I let this order fall through the cracks and I apologize for this.

I totally dropped the ball and apologize.

I have been busy getting my clinic up and running.

I have set up a 25% off coupon code for Faruq that is for life. I dropped the ball and the customer should not have to suffer. Just type in Faruq at checkout and you will see the 25% come off your entire order.

I have also just filled the formula he was seeking.

I treated some of the herbs with vinegar and others with wine and fried them.

I added legally obtained and managed Moutain Lion bone to replace the tiger bone commonly used. This was fried in black vinegar and then baked.

I hope this makes up for my total and complete blunder. I will also be sending out some freebies for the total cluter.

Henceforth let us keep all orders through my website and we can track them much easier.

I just received the herb, Bro! It's got to be like 5 pounds, wow! Thanks, Dale. And you didn't charge me a thing! We're square now, buddy. I didn't understand what happened before because it wasn't the professional humanitarian I knew from the forum, but the real Dale is back! Thanks again, big guy!

[Dale Dugas]

Brother,

The herbs will make up to 3 gallons of medicine that will be strong. FYI.

I always hook up kung fu brothers.

Thank you for the kind words.

[Raipizo]

Faruq you are lucky, getting that for free :o

[Faruq]

I know. Dale's a good guy. He ends every post with "let me know how I can be of service" for Chrissakes! You had to know he was the goods!

[MadAx]

You may lack stability in your shoulders, did you ever see a Chiropractor/physical therapist about it?

I went to see a physical therapist for a full check-up. Everything's perfect except on the left forearm where I have a little lump. Probably a legacy from a tough sparring with my teacher last year. Long story short: practicing blocking positions, going harder and harder and at some point the middle section of my forearm swells up like hell. Put some ice, then used some painkillers and got away with it in two weeks.
Actually one of the reasons why I decided to start conditioning my forearms and fists, train my body to withstand blows etc.

About that, I have another question: in addition to my routine, is it OK to spar with a tree occasionally?

So far three weeks of training, I'm taking it real easy and slow:
- On conditiong, I am at minimum strength and reps: 50 punches with each arm, 30 knockings on each forearm with mug beans bag
- On push ups, I do regular, knuckle (horizontal and vertical) and wrist. 15 of each type every other day.
That's real easy and slow, I intend on gradually building up each month by adding reps and/or increasing strength and/or speed (for push-ups).

[Raipizo]

I went to see a physical therapist for a full check-up. Everything's perfect except on the left forearm where I have a little lump. Probably a legacy from a tough sparring with my teacher last year. Long story short: practicing blocking positions, going harder and harder and at some point the middle section of my forearm swells up like hell. Put some ice, then used some painkillers and got away with it in two weeks.
Actually one of the reasons why I decided to start conditioning my forearms and fists, train my body to withstand blows etc.

About that, I have another question: in addition to my routine, is it OK to spar with a tree occasionally?

So far three weeks of training, I'm taking it real easy and slow:
- On conditiong, I am at minimum strength and reps: 50 punches with each arm, 30 knockings on each forearm with mug beans bag
- On push ups, I do regular, knuckle (horizontal and vertical) and wrist. 15 of each type every other day.
That's real easy and slow, I intend on gradually building up each month by adding reps and/or increasing strength and/or speed (for push-ups).

Sounds good and you've got some jow? I don't see why you can't tree spar. I hit the heavy bag whenever I do my arm workouts along with my iron training which I do everyday.

[MadAx]

Sorry for the late reply, yes indeed I have some jow and apply twice a day. Thanks for your advice.

Talking about jow, I took up some wing chun classes. I am now used to minor bruises, but two days ago I got myself a swollen bruise on both arms. I’ve been applying some jow 4 times a day and massaging for 10 min.
It’s getting better but that got me wondering: when rubbing/massaging, should we go easy or on the contrary put more pressure on the wounded area so that jow sinks deeper into the skin and facilitates further healing?
Also, can I still continue with my conditioning routine, or would it slow down the healing? (I can hit the bag with no problem and I did a few push-ups, did not result in any pain but still, it’s better to double check…)

Thanks

[Dale Dugas]

There is no need to hurt yourself

Jow and massage do the job

I instruct to rub jow into the injured area and the rub as hard as you can without causing pain

[Raipizo]

Sorry for the late reply, yes indeed I have some jow and apply twice a day. Thanks for your advice.

Talking about jow, I took up some wing chun classes. I am now used to minor bruises, but two days ago I got myself a swollen bruise on both arms. I’ve been applying some jow 4 times a day and massaging for 10 min.
It’s getting better but that got me wondering: when rubbing/massaging, should we go easy or on the contrary put more pressure on the wounded area so that jow sinks deeper into the skin and facilitates further healing?
Also, can I still continue with my conditioning routine, or would it slow down the healing? (I can hit the bag with no problem and I did a few push-ups, did not result in any pain but still, it’s better to double check…)

Thanks

If you have a bruise you still can condition, try to avoid the bruise or go a little easier on it with the bag, easy enough that it doesn't hurt.

[Faruq]

Steve Lee Swift taught us to rub it in as hard as we could stand it. But your tolerance increases as your body gets used to it, so you end up being able to rub it in real hard after a few years of training.

[Raipizo]

If you were taught that that's fine too

[-N-]

Steve Lee Swift taught us to rub it in as hard as we could stand it. But your tolerance increases as your body gets used to it, so you end up being able to rub it in real hard after a few years of training.

That's how I always did it since I was a little kid.

My uncle had a family recipe, and my mom used it on my injuries.

I always thought it was weird to see people lighlty putting the medicine on like it was lotion.

[MadAx]

Hey all,

Another quick question: after now 6 weeks of training, my knuckles start to stand out from the rest of the hand when folding/tightening the fist. It's nothing shocking, I suppose it's the effects of the conditioning, don't you think?

Thanks in advance.

[Bacon]

Hey all,

Another quick question: after now 6 weeks of training, my knuckles start to stand out from the rest of the hand when folding/tightening the fist. It's nothing shocking, I suppose it's the effects of the conditioning, don't you think?

Thanks in advance.

Or swelling.

[MadAx]

Or swelling.

It does not look like swelling, and it does not feel like swelling.
I apply jow before and after the training, and I massage the hand for approx 15min (5min fingers & knuckles, 5 min palm, 5 min back), so I guess I am on the safe side here. Plus I have no pain. On the contrary, I have the feeling that the knuckles are way stronger already.

[IronFist]

Post pics.

And save those pics so 6 months from now you can tell if there's a change.

[Raipizo]

Post pics.

And save those pics so 6 months from now you can tell if there's a change.

Agreed I wanna see :p

[MadAx]

Agreed I wanna see :p

Good idea, indeed.
You will find attached four pics in which the fist is tightened (that's when it is tightened that I get the feeling that knuckles stand out).
Looking at the pics I already realise that some hair is gone haha.

Damien

[Raipizo]

Good idea, indeed.
You will find attached four pics in which the fist is tightened (that's when it is tightened that I get the feeling that knuckles stand out).
Looking at the pics I already realise that some hair is gone haha.

Damien

My hands look almost exactly the same lol I don't see anything to be worried about.

[MadAx]

My hands look almost exactly the same lol I don't see anything to be worried about.

This is a relief, haha ^^. Now that I look again at the pics, I guess I worried for nothing...
See you in six months time, I'll post new pics.
Good luck

[Faruq]

Usually the hands get fatter and fleshier faster than the change in knuckle size. Also, as opposed to the karatekas who don't use jow, we, depending on the strength of the jow, often don't exhibit a large outward change in the bone. It's more a toughening and densifying of the skin, tendons, fascia and bones than the bones/knuckles getting big. If you want bigger knuckles then stop using the jow, but you'll run the risk of getting arthritis too then though.

[Raipizo]

Usually the hands get fatter and fleshier faster than the change in knuckle size. Also, as opposed to the karatekas who don't use jow, we, depending on the strength of the jow, often don't exhibit a large outward change in the bone. It's more a toughening and densifying of the skin, tendons, fascia and bones than the bones/knuckles getting big. If you want bigger knuckles then stop using the jow, but you'll run the risk of getting arthritis too then though.

Exactly you'll get dam meat club hands lol. The hands do thicken as the skin becomes conditioned. You would have to have a huge change in the bones to create a very noticeable change.

[IronFist]

Your hands look normal to me.

[Raipizo]

Your hands look normal to me.

Yeah, don't notice a problem

[MadAx]

Usually the hands get fatter and fleshier faster than the change in knuckle size. Also, as opposed to the karatekas who don't use jow, we, depending on the strength of the jow, often don't exhibit a large outward change in the bone. It's more a toughening and densifying of the skin, tendons, fascia and bones than the bones/knuckles getting big. If you want bigger knuckles then stop using the jow, but you'll run the risk of getting arthritis too then though.

Thank you all for your feedback, and sorry for the false alarm :o.

Reflecting on what you said, I understand that the hand will thicken way before there's any noticeable change in the bones/knuckles.
But doesn't it come at the expense of flexibility? I mean, in the long run, doesn't it impair the ability to use the hand (grab things, fold hand, tighten fist, etc.) if the hand is fatter but the bones relatively unchanged?

I am very curious and I tend to ask lots of (naive) questions, please do let me know if that's getting too annoying.

[MadAx]

Usually the hands get fatter and fleshier faster than the change in knuckle size. Also, as opposed to the karatekas who don't use jow, we, depending on the strength of the jow, often don't exhibit a large outward change in the bone. It's more a toughening and densifying of the skin, tendons, fascia and bones than the bones/knuckles getting big. If you want bigger knuckles then stop using the jow, but you'll run the risk of getting arthritis too then though.

Thank you all for your feedback, and sorry for the false alarm :o.

Reflecting on what you said, I understand that the hand will thicken way before there's any noticeable change in the bones/knuckles.
But doesn't it come at the expense of flexibility? I mean, in the long run, doesn't it impair the ability to use the hand (grab things, fold hand, tighten fist, etc.) if the hand is fatter but the bones relatively unchanged?

I am very curious and I tend to ask lots of (naive) questions, please do let me know if that's getting too annoying.
Thanks

[Faruq]

Well, ideally the dit da jow and doing the precise hand movements of the forms of your kung fu system make your hands even more flexible. One of the guys at my old Wing Chun school who did it was a photographer so he needed finger dexterity for the precise little movements had to focus and take pictures etc and he suffered no loss of sensitivity or flexibility. A knowledgeable sifu will help you avoid those problems. But that's another reason to purchase iron palm DVDs by knowledgeable people like Dale Dugas and Rod Morgan's group.

[Raipizo]

Well, ideally the dit da jow and doing the precise hand movements of the forms of your kung fu system make your hands even more flexible. One of the guys at my old Wing Chun school who did it was a photographer so he needed finger dexterity for the precise little movements had to focus and take pictures etc and he suffered no loss of sensitivity or flexibility. A knowledgeable sifu will help you avoid those problems. But that's another reason to purchase iron palm DVDs by knowledgeable people like Dale Dugas and Rod Morgan's group.

Precisely my friend. Look up Tao123chi on YouTube and his iron palm videos in particular, it's Rod Morgan's channel