Grados Wing Chun: Street Combat

[SunRA]

Has anyone trained with Sifu Jose Grados or know anything about him?

[nasmedicine]

You should contact his ex student Sean Obasi, otherwise you're better off going in person and seeing for yourself.

Cheers,

-Nirav

[k gledhill]

You should contact his ex student Sean Obasi, otherwise you're better off going in person and seeing for yourself.

Cheers,

-Nirav

Dont ask Obasi :D unless you want the reasons not to go to Grados ;)

[IronFist]

In for drama.

[Vajramusti]

Has anyone trained with Sifu Jose Grados or know anything about him?
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No other comment. IMO he is NOT in the Ho/Fong lineage despite his web site. The term lineage is often used very very loosely.

[Phil Redmond]

Dont ask Obasi :D unless you want the reasons not to go to Grados ;)
You beat me to it Kevin... :)

[Vajramusti]

In a nutshell-
What did Obasi say?

[jesper]

In a nutshell-
What did Obasi say?

:mad:)("%¤!")=(¤!=¤)%¤? :mad:

thinks that pretty much sums it up :D

[Vajramusti]

:mad:)("%¤!")=(¤!=¤)%¤? :mad:

thinks that pretty much sums it up :D
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Wow!

[SunRA]

Besides Sean Obasi's negative comments does anyone have anything to say about him as a teacher? I'm looking to train in NYC. TWC with Master Redmond only trains once a week, which I would like to train more often.

[nasmedicine]

Are you in the city? If so then just go and meet up with Grados and see for yourself. You'll know instantly whether you want to stay or not. That would be better than anything else anybody could say on this forum. Wouldn't you agree?

[Vajramusti]

Besides Sean Obasi's negative comments does anyone have anything to say about him as a teacher? I'm looking to train in NYC. TWC with Master Redmond only trains once a week, which I would like to train more often.
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http://www.wingchunnyc.com/

if Phil is not available.

[SunRA]

Are you in the city? If so then just go and meet up with Grados and see for yourself. You'll know instantly whether you want to stay or not. That would be better than anything else anybody could say on this forum. Wouldn't you agree?

I'm new to wing chun so that's why I was asking. I really don't have anything to gauge him on. If Master Redmond taught more than once a week in NYC that would be awesome<hint, hint> LOL

[Ali. R]

I’m not sure of his background, but he can fight for real and I’ve seen many practitioners live only off the reputation of others; and at the same time can’t fight their way out of a wet paper bag with a slug hammer, only down by association but really hate the workout. Go visit them all and if they don’t run their mouths more than providing their skill level, but literally can shut you down (light/hard sparring) no matter what you do, then go with them if it's convenient for you to do so.

Stay away from the talk, talk, talk but train with someone that can really kick your but, and will have no problem showing you as well; always test your new/maybe sifu skill level, if he’s really good he shouldn’t have a problem with it. I’m not the best in the world, but I’ve spar with a room full of black belts (8) and dominated them all (one by one) and my school here in Kentucky really took off because of it. Had to; because I’d moved to a new location and didn’t want anyone to get it confused.

[JPinAZ]

My recommendation is go see for yourself. From Sifu Grado's clips (and he has many out there) he looks like he has some skill and understanding in his art. He isn't afraid to put himself out there and I've heard he has no problem meeting up with people that want to touch hands and see what he can do (as Ali has it seems, with good outcome and review)

And I would take some of the comments here with a grain of salt. Some of them are going to be biased based on either jealousy, politics, gossip, etc
Example:


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No other comment. IMO he is NOT in the Ho/Fong lineage despite his web site. The term lineage is often used very very loosely.


In a nutshell-
What did Obasi say?


Wow!

There's a saying, if you don't have anything good to say, don't say anything, but I guess some people just can't help themselves. It's also laughable how it's clear people don't like him without knowing much about him, yet still look for the juicy gossip like a woman in a sewing circle.. :rolleyes:

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Ali. R;1176522]I’m not sure of his background, but he can fight for real and I’ve seen many practitioners live only off the reputation of others; and at the same time can’t fight their way out of a wet paper bag with a slug hammer, only down by association but really hate the workout.
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Yes- I am pretty sure that he can fight. There are many ways to fight-not just with wing chun.
Depends on what someone is looking for. I am sure that Phil. Kevin and some of Alan Lee's people can fight too- they have solid wing chun back grounds.The enquirer can check, see, compare decide for himself.

[Ali. R]

So you’re saying that the names makes them solid and if one is not promoted or promote themselves as Yip Man’s student’s, then they are not real; when there’s sifus that have came from all walks of life that people never heard of have expressed their connection to ‘Yip Man’ and with skills to back it up.

Well, there are many who took photos with Yip Man and many students who choose not to use his name for promotion, because most of them don’t run martial art schools for profit, and for some that do/did (drop Yip’s name) are ousted as not being solid student’s of Yip Man by his top student’s, even though they have been seen TRAINING with him (Leung Ting and others) but that does not make it so (their linage not being real).

Training with Yip Man for one to three years does not make them solid students of his system when Yip didn’t run group classes but taught mostly his first top five students/privately, while they have all taught many through group and private classes that some never even heard of still today.

My Sifu trained privately with Yip Man and Leung Sheung (almost 10 years), but by the way you tell it, it doesn’t count.

I’ve seen photos of my teacher training with Yip Man and leung Sheung, should I believe you because his name is not written down somewhere as being a second generation student of Yip Man, does that not make him real?

[Sihing73]

Ali,

Sorry, but I do not get anyone saying you need to come from Yip Man's line to be real or even good.

Not sure where you are getting that from. There are several on this forum who do not draw thier line through Yip Man.

I think what Joy was saying was that there are many ways to fight and be good at doing so. Being from a specific Wing Chun lineage does not insure one can fight. However, there are some lines which are more well known for mixing it up than others. Does not make them better, just a different emphasis.

Of course this is my interpretation so I may be mistaken, I have been known to be wrong though usually it is the other guy not me ;) JK

Anyhow, I just don't see where you are coming from with the implication that anyone is claiming you need to be from Yip Man's line to be good. :confused:

[Ali. R]

Ali,
Anyhow, I just don't see where you are coming from with the implication that anyone is claiming you need to be from Yip Man's line to be good. :confused:

I did not say that, could you please show me where I did. I'm taking about lineage in general, Yip Man's is just an EXAMPLE on how people can really lose their minds over a recorded name.

[Sihing73]

So you’re saying that the names makes them solid and if one is not promoted or promote themselves as Yip Man’s student’s, then they are not real;

Perhaps I am reading this wrong, but this seems to imply that you are saying someone implied that unless one trained with Yip Man they were not real.

I mean is it me or is that what you said??

If you were using Yip Man just as an example then your wording, IMHO, was poorly chosen. But that is just my opinion.

[Ali. R]

Hate you got confused,

I’ve read it over many times and just can’t see what you’re saying, it’s all good.

Take care,

[Sihing73]

Hate you got confused,

I’ve read it over many times and just can’t see what you’re saying, it’s all good.

Take care,

Perhaps I misread, although it also appears clear to me in Black and White, well to be honest when I quoted it is really in black and blue :D

Not something worth arguing over to me. If you don't see it then maybe it is not there. ;)

[Ali. R]

No problem.

[Ali. R]

One thing I do know is this; you could join an association and spend a lot of time with big name guys through correspondent/seminars classes while in another state, but when your money runs out; you just can’t tell the public where or who you got your wing chun from, if you decide to start teaching classes, which is total BS.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Ali. R;1176563]So you’re saying that the names makes them solid and if one is not promoted or promote themselves as Yip Man’s student’s, then they are not real; when there’s sifus that have came from all walks of life that people never heard of have expressed their connection to ‘Yip Man’ and with skills to back it up.
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Ali- I don;t think that you read my original post correctly...causing some diversion/confusion in the discussion by you and someone else. All I said was that Grados isn't in the Ho/Fong lineage as he claims on his web site.

[wingchunIan]

I've just looked at his site for the first time ever. I know nothing about his lineage or his personality. Some of the stuff on his web page wasn't my cup of tea but its not the worst I've seen and it's certainly a heck of a lot better than some stuff I've seen on here. There's obviously some history around this, where does all the negativity stem from?

[JPinAZ]

[QUOTE=Ali. R;1176563]All I said was that Grados isn't in the Ho/Fong lineage as he claims on his web site.

Just so we are clear, you are saying this is all lies and you are calling Sifu Grados is a liar?

http://www.sifugrados.com/sifugrados.shtml/sifamilytree.shtml

[Wayfaring]

http://www.sifugrados.com/sifugrados.shtml/sifamilytree.shtml

Grados seems pretty clear on his instructors. Joy says accurately that he does not currently represent Ho Kam Ming or Augustine Fong.

Grados web site indicates he was in Fong's org from 1990 - 1998.

His wing chun now seems to be a combination of his previous instructors plus his street fighting. Obasi who has some cage fights doesn't seem to think highly of this combo.

Most of the "street fighting" I've seen falls in a couple of categories - a lot of role-based drilling like Krav Maga, or more live energy training which is your STAB/Die Less Often self defense stuff. I'm unfamiliar with which side or approach Grados system leans toward.

Just from my .02, knowing nothing of Grados, the whole "Street Combat" thing IMO attracts way too many b@d@$$es (i.e. those who view themselves as that). I mean my "Street Combat" approach would be avoid bad areas at bad times, and carry whatever non-lethal weapon alternatives I'm comfortable with and the law allows. And get a concealed carry permit. No eye contact and be non-confrontational. Not real exciting, certainly not enough to earn a living teaching "Street Combat".

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Ali. R;1176563]So you’re saying that the names makes them solid and if one is not promoted or promote themselves as Yip Man’s student’s, then they are not real; when there’s sifus that have came from all walks of life that people never heard of have expressed their connection to ‘Yip Man’ and with skills to back it up.
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Ali- I don;t think that you read my original post correctly...causing some diversion/confusion in the discussion by you and someone else. All I said was that Grados isn't in the Ho/Fong lineage as he claims on his web site.
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PS. there is a lot of sloppy usage of the term "lineage". Older usages of the term is definitely diluted
in much contemporary usage WSL, Lok Yiu, TST, LS, HKM learned directly from IM for some time
so they can "trace" their "lineage" to IM.

One can attend a couple of seminars and maybe sponsor a seminar- that does not mean that a lineage is established in the traditional sense of the word.

Again- this is not related to fighting ability.. lots of people can fight with or without a lineage
in a TCMA style. Nothing personal.

[Wayfaring]

WSL, Lok Yiu, TST, LS, HKM learned directly from IM for some time so they can "trace" their "lineage" to IM.

One can attend a couple of seminars and maybe sponsor a seminar- that does not mean that a lineage is established in the traditional sense of the word.


So what's the magic number for "some time" where someone can trace their lineage to IM?

I mean to a certain extent if a guy is teaching what he learned from Ip Man directly in privates, he's an Ip Man guy. That's his lineage. If he's got an imperfect understanding, then shouldn't all his hotshot older brothers get with him and help him out? Or should they all sit around, point fingers, and tout their own perfect class attendance record over a longer period of time?

I mean, for example, is Bruce Lee in the Ip Man "lineage"? If he's not, he ought to be just due to the number of times his name comes up in Ip Man lineage sifus marketing spiels.

[Vajramusti]

So what's the magic number for "some time" where someone can trace their lineage to IM?

I mean to a certain extent if a guy is teaching what he learned from Ip Man directly in privates, he's an Ip Man guy. That's his lineage. If he's got an imperfect understanding, then shouldn't all his hotshot older brothers get with him and help him out? Or should they all sit around, point fingers, and tout their own perfect class attendance record over a longer period of time?

I mean, for example, is Bruce Lee in the Ip Man "lineage"? If he's not, he ought to be just due to the number of times his name comes up in Ip Man lineage sifus marketing spiels.
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BL was in the IP Man lineage-WSL was his regular wc sifu -wsl correctly regarded him as his student. IM corrected some of his student's students on occasion.BL was a very talented person and athletically gifted and very committed to training. He left further wc training when he left HK and went on to other things both in styles and career.

Some of IM's senior students have helped out with other juniors- that includes WSL, TST and HKM.
and some others.

[JPinAZ]

Grados seems pretty clear on his instructors. Joy says accurately that he does not currently represent Ho Kam Ming or Augustine Fong.

Joy didn't say represent, he said - "IMO he is NOT in the Ho/Fong lineage despite his web site." and "Grados isn't in the Ho/Fong lineage as he claims on his web site". So, he is saying Grados didn't train in that lineage and calling Grados a liar (which he was too pu55y to answer when I asked him directly). Maybe Joy's right and in that case should prove how he knows Grados never trained in that lineage, or joy is just talking out his a55.

If Grados trained in that lineage for 8 years like he says, then he will ALWAYS be a part of that lineage, even if he stops teaching that method/curriculum. Even being 'kicked out' wouldn't erase those years of training - it would still still part of Sifu Grado's past/personal lineage.
Example, and I'll use myself on this: If I quite learning or teaching HFY today (which I am not planning on), it would still ALWAYS still be part of my lineage. Just like my father is part of my lineage.


Grados web site indicates he was in Fong's org from 1990 - 1998.

Yup, he also says he has documentation from Fong. Either I'm missing something, Grado's is lying or Joy has some big magically history eraser he's trying to scrub Grado's past with! So Joy, please clear this up and explain for us all why you think Grados is lying about those 8 years.

[WC1277]

All Grados did was go to a seminar or two. That's it. No continual corrospondence or training. He is wrong to say he comes from Fong Sifu and no one that I know considers him a fellow student either. There, does that sum it up?

[WC1277]

As far as the "certificate" goes, anyone who goes to a seminar gets a certificate of completion or at least used to. It means nothing.

[Wayfaring]

All Grados did was go to a seminar or two. That's it. No continual corrospondence or training. He is wrong to say he comes from Fong Sifu and no one that I know considers him a fellow student either. There, does that sum it up?

yes, makes it clearer. thanks.

[nasmedicine]

Joy didn't say represent, he said - "IMO he is NOT in the Ho/Fong lineage despite his web site." and "Grados isn't in the Ho/Fong lineage as he claims on his web site". So, he is saying Grados didn't train in that lineage and calling Grados a liar (which he was too pu55y to answer when I asked him directly). Maybe Joy's right and in that case should prove how he knows Grados never trained in that lineage, or joy is just talking out his a55.

If Grados trained in that lineage for 8 years like he says, then he will ALWAYS be a part of that lineage, even if he stops teaching that method/curriculum. Even being 'kicked out' wouldn't erase those years of training - it would still still part of Sifu Grado's past/personal lineage.
Example, and I'll use myself on this: If I quite learning or teaching HFY today (which I am not planning on), it would still ALWAYS still be part of my lineage. Just like my father is part of my lineage.



Yup, he also says he has documentation from Fong. Either I'm missing something, Grado's is lying or Joy has some big magically history eraser he's trying to scrub Grado's past with! So Joy, please clear this up and explain for us all why you think Grados is lying about those 8 years.

Great post. Perfectly valid points made here.

[nasmedicine]

All Grados did was go to a seminar or two. That's it. No continual corrospondence or training. He is wrong to say he comes from Fong Sifu and no one that I know considers him a fellow student either. There, does that sum it up?

I have heard similar stories about Grados. However dispite this I hear that he has quite a few students. Of course this means nothing but he must be doing something right.

[WC1277]

Just looked at Grados website and saw a supposed letter of endorsement from Fong Sifu claiming he was a representative of his "New York Wing Chun Gung Fu Headqauarters".

Fong Sifu has NEVER had a representative of his system, ever, and has even gone as far to post this on his website to counteract claims like Grados has made...

"....- I have no designated representatives. No one speaks for me.

- I do not endorse Fong's Wing Chun Instructors or franchised instructors at other schools. The Tucson school is separate and independent from all other schools.

- Those who use my methods and ideas in teaching can do so freely. I will do what I can to help you. I do not require or expect any royalties or fees. The only condition is that you use your own name and assume all risks and liabilities.

- Instructors from other schools are welcome to attend classes and seminars, however, attendance does not imply endorsement of a particular instructor, school, training method, or martial system....."

[Vajramusti]

The original enquirer asked a question and he got lots of information. It's upto him to decide where he wants to go. That should be the end of the matter. He prefers learning from Phil.No real drama needed.
Sifu Fong's list of certified and recognized instructors are on his website. Grados is not on that list. Sifu Fong's statement that he has no representatives is also clear on his website.
I have actually met Grados once and briefly rolled with him. No Drama. I wish him well.
Exaggeration in claims is not unknown in advertising..

[SunRA]

The original enquirer asked a question and he got lots of information. It's upto him to decide where he wants to go. That should be the end of the matter..

Yes I did get plenty of information and than some :). It has been like reading a good novel, reading you guys responses. It had a lot of info, drama, humor and kept me looking for more. Never thought it would draw some many responses.:eek:

All jokes aside thanks for the information.

[Paddington]

Just thought I would recount an 'email' exchange I had with Shawn Obasi. In short the fall out was very much ego driven. That said I think Shawn also began to realize that he was not really at the standard the grade Grados gave to him implied. Shawn eventually moved on to study wing chun with someone else.