What is qi?

[xinyidizi]

If you wish to talk down my attempt at a coherent theory based on physical reality then you need to put forward one of your own that better fits what is observed

Physical reality is different for different people. Imagine that there was an isolated island where people were all born deaf. How could you convince them that there was such a thing as sound?

[Hendrik]

Physical reality is different for different people. Imagine that there was an isolated island where people were all born deaf. How could you convince them that there was such a thing as sound?

the issue here is some one is trying to dictate something he doesnt know to fit his way of thinking. for me, that is trying to playing God.

[GlennR]

What is it?

Simple explanations only please.

I think I know what it is but I would like to hear what other people think it is also. I will post my definition after a few replies.

I think this thread has proven, without a doubt, my original statement

Qi is indeed, the opposite of IQ

[GlennR]

Qi exists disregard of what theory or what the human like to theoritesize it.

Does Qi exist in your lounge room??

[GlennR]

the issue here is some one is trying to dictate something he doesnt know to fit his way of thinking. for me, that is trying to playing God.

BWAHAHAHAHA!!!

Pot........ kettle....... black....

[imperialtaichi]

First of all as I mentioned in another post you guys shouldn't mistake 氣（qi) and 炁（qi）. I am not very sure so correct me if I'm wrong but I have seen in a few Daoist texts that 炁 was used to describe what I earlier mentioned as the particles forming energy fields in the universe.

Ah, XYDZ, you beat me to it!

Chinese characters are made up of parts, which if we break up the parts, we can understand the meaning of the words:

氣: meaning something that comes out of rice.
炁: top half means void/nothingness (as in Daoism an Buddhism concept), the four dots on the bottom represents fire.

[imperialtaichi]

In a way, I don't really need to know what Qi is.

When I use anaesthetics on a patient, I care about its effectiveness, adverse reactions, dosage, interactions with other drugs, basic mechanism and whether the patient is allergic to it.

The exact biochemical pathway I'll let the biochemist and pharmacologist work it out and tell me and develop it; my job is how to effectively and safely use it.

As a martial artist, I'm only interested in effectiveness: If the Qi model helps me produce a certain result, I'll use it; if Athletic types of training helps me develop certain attributes, I'll use it too. I just need to know enough to advance my training and not to get myself into trouble. I'll leave the rest to the scientists, alchemists and philosophers to study it.

Keep it coming guys!

p.s. more Chinese Stirfry wisdom: I don't need to eat the whole plate, I just pick the bits I like with my chopsticks :D

[taai gihk yahn]

Physical reality is different for different people. Imagine that there was an isolated island where people were all born deaf. How could you convince them that there was such a thing as sound?
really? let's see - let's take a random sample of 100 people and have them walk out in front of a speeding train one at a time; I think that without exception, they would all experience "physical reality" in exactly the same manner...


Ah, XYDZ, you beat me to it!

Chinese characters are made up of parts, which if we break up the parts, we can understand the meaning of the words:

氣: meaning something that comes out of rice..
yes - the vapors as it ferments; indicative of transformational process; "qi" is the principle of transformational processes - meaning life; not a discreet thing, but an operational principle;

[Hendrik]

I think we are just talking about 元氣論 in MA and TCM not the philosophical or general meanings。 More specifically I think in some cases it should be 炁. The ancient Chinese really liked to play with characters.


This is what happen.

氣 Or qi means brearhing。

炁 means 先天真氣 pre birth real qi or short form 真氣 real qi or zhen qi.
In modern day qigong writing, some even make further short cut form as 氣 qi to imply it is talking about zhen qi. That short cut get people confused.

Then, there is a character 脈 Mai. Mai means the flow path of the per birth real qi.

So, when on grow the zhen qi, after it is charged up to a certain level, the zhen qi will start to flow accord to a path. that path is Mai.

For ordinary male , after the Zhen qi charge up, it has three paths to go , flowing to the 12 medirians and dissipate in the body, flowing to the sexual organ and eject from there, or those who cultivate qigong, flow into du medirian, recycle back to the Dan dien via ren medirian and keep accumulating to another higher charged level.

So, is qi real? Can it be measured ?
Yes. One can feel its grow and charge up in Dan Tien and flow. When one has sex or sick the level of charge will drop.

The ancient Chinese, including the WCK yik kam writing of 1850.
Always refer to 氣脈 qi mai or 練氣修脈 these mean cultivate the( lower abs ) breathing and the flow of the zhen qi.

So, there is no ambiguity in the qi layer, and it is not the breathing layer, the physical layer, or mind layer.

That is a layer of one's body one has to go in and knowing it. It exists similar to our physical joints or breathing.

Thus, if one use the term qi and jing, one better know exactly what it is and have handle on them as it is. Even under the research labs investigation.

Otherwise, what do one refer to? Another alibi which will set one up for failure because one can never deliver or a ego booster to impress some one for short term fame?

I do think it is the time enough is enough for all those cannot deliver claim in internal tcma. But present them it is as it is. So, for the martial artists there is no secret and magic, for those choose tcm or qigong for healing know the bottom line of the healing without misleading.

[nasmedicine]

In a way, I don't really need to know what Qi is.

When I use anaesthetics on a patient, I care about its effectiveness, adverse reactions, dosage, interactions with other drugs, basic mechanism and whether the patient is allergic to it.

The exact biochemical pathway I'll let the biochemist and pharmacologist work it out and tell me and develop it; my job is how to effectively and safely use it.

As a martial artist, I'm only interested in effectiveness: If the Qi model helps me produce a certain result, I'll use it; if Athletic types of training helps me develop certain attributes, I'll use it too. I just need to know enough to advance my training and not to get myself into trouble. I'll leave the rest to the scientists, alchemists and philosophers to study it.

Keep it coming guys!

p.s. more Chinese Stirfry wisdom: I don't need to eat the whole plate, I just pick the bits I like with my chopsticks :D

John,

Very well put together statement. IMO, Bottom line, its the end result that matters. No matter what one may think Chi is/isn't or how it's develops as long as one is getting the results they are looking for then that's all that matters. Who am I to tell someone what they practice is right or wrong especially when, despite all this discussion, nobody can say with 100 percent certainty what Chi is. The one thing that can be said with 100 percent certainty is that the phenomenon indeed exists and stills warrants further investigation into it's purpose and atributes. For example there are many on this forum who don't exactly suscribe to Hendriks methods however there are many on here that do, and there are many in between. In the grand scheme of things does it mean that hendrichs is right or wrong? no, absolutely not! it's completely subjective whether one agrees/doesn't agree (and Hendrik is fine with that). If somebody wants to think that chi is astral projection and particles floating around that's completely fine. if somebody wants to think that chi is nothing more then pure athletics that's fine to. If someone wants to think that this is all nonsense, great. As long as a person does not try to say that they indeed have the correct answer and that their answer is the end all be all. It's no skin off anyone's back because Nobody has "The" answer. I don't care who they are or how well read one is. The topic is not objective enough. Just my two cents.

[nasmedicine]

This is what happen.

氣 Or qi means brearhing。

炁 means 先天真氣 pre birth real qi or short form 真氣 real qi or zhen qi.
In modern day qigong writing, some even make further short cut form as 氣 qi to imply it is talking about zhen qi. That short cut get people confused.

Then, there is a character 脈 Mai. Mai means the flow path of the per birth real qi.

So, when on grow the zhen qi, after it is charged up to a certain level, the zhen qi will start to flow accord to a path. that path is Mai.

For ordinary male , after the Zhen qi charge up, it has three paths to go , flowing to the 12 medirians and dissipate in the body, flowing to the sexual organ and eject from there, or those who cultivate qigong, flow into du medirian, recycle back to the Dan dien via ren medirian and keep accumulating to another higher charged level.

So, is qi real? Can it be measured ?
Yes. One can feel its grow and charge up in Dan Tien and flow. When one has sex or sick the level of charge will drop.

The ancient Chinese, including the WCK yik kam writing of 1850.
Always refer to 氣脈 qi mai or 練氣修脈 these mean cultivate the( lower abs ) breathing and the flow of the zhen qi.

So, there is no ambiguity in the qi layer, and it is not the breathing layer, the physical layer, or mind layer.

That is a layer of one's body one has to go in and knowing it. It exists similar to our physical joints or breathing.

Thus, if one use the term qi and jing, one better know exactly what it is and have handle on them as it is. Even under the research labs investigation.

Otherwise, what do one refer to? Another alibi which will set one up for failure because one can never deliver or a ego booster to impress some one for short term fame? I do think it is the time enough is enough for all those cannot deliver claim in internal tcma. But present them it is as it is.

This post is a nice adjunct to you Chi layer videos.

[imperialtaichi]

John,

Very well put together statement. IMO, Bottom line, its the end result that matters. No matter what one may think Chi is/isn't or how it's develops as long as one are getting the results they are looking for then that's all that matters. Who am I to tell someone they practice is right or wrong especially when despite all this discussion nobody can say with 100 percent certainty what it is. The one thing that can be said with 100 percent certainty is that the phenomenon indeed exists and stills warrants further investigation into it's purpose and atributes. For example there are many on this forum who don't exactly suscribe to Hendriks methods however there are many on here that do,and there are many in between. In the grand scheme of things does it mean that hendrichs is right or wrong? no, absolutely not! it's completely subjective whether one agrees/doesn't agree. If somebody wants to think that chi is astral projection and particles floating around that's completely fine. if somebody wants to think that chi is nothing more then pure athletics that's fine to. If someone wants to think that this is all nonsense, great. As long as a person does not try to say that they indeed have the correct answer and that their answer is the end all be all. It's no skin off anyone's back because Nobody has the answer "The" answer. I don't care who they are or how well read one is. The topic is not objective enough. Just my two cents.

Well said.

[Hendrik]

This post is a nice adjunct to you Chi layer videos.

I don't know it all, in fact I am just a beginner.

I am willing to share my 30 years of research and verification to the wcner who is interested on what it is as it is.

I get into this stuffs 30 + years ago when My late sifu Cho hung choi teaches me the yik kam slt and the writing of 1850. I am not satisfied with his understanding at that time, and that trigger my wanting to dig things to the root. 30 + years passed. With my sifu's encouragement I dig deep into it.

The basic stuffs has been iron straight without embiguity. There is no reason to spend 30 years on this. It is my hope that the future generation spend thier 30 years in developing themself. I hope those who choose qigong to heal themself to spend time on proper path for thier health. My 30 years of live spends, but this part of the WCK 1850 will stay.

The five layers is the minimum for one to have a basic handling of slt .

[nasmedicine]

I don't know it all, in fact I am just a beginner.

I am willing to share my 30 years of research and verification to the wcner who is interested on what it is as it is.

I get into this stuffs 30 + years ago when My late sifu Cho hung choi teaches me the yik kam slt and the writing of 1850. I am not satisfied with his understanding at that time, and that trigger my wanting to dig things to the root. 30 + years passed. With my sifu's encouragement I dig deep into it.

The basic stuffs has been iron straight without embiguity. There is no reason to spend 30 years on this. It is my hope that the future generation spend thier 30 years in developing themself. I hope those who choose qigong to heal themself to spend time on proper path for thier health. My 30 years of live spends, but this part of the WCK 1850 will stay.

The five layers is the minimum for one to have a basic handling of slt .

Hendriks,

I totally value your way of training chi gong because it does not conflict with any my sifu's internal training as well as my personal views on internal martial arts. Furthermore IMHO as well as based on my conversations with you and those who have met you I can honestly say that your opinion on the topic of internal wing chun training matters. In fact personally the only other person on this forum whose opinion I hold in that same regard (internal wing chun training) is John (imperialtaichi). Your information, to those that's can get past your brand of vocabulary and delivery, is valuable. These are my honest feeling and having said that I feel your five layer model is quite good especially for those who know wing chun but do not practice it internally. IMO, It is Not helpful for those who already know either because the information is redundant for them or they have "no more room in their cup". Either way I know you don't care what people think and in true dharmic fashion you still share, either they take it or leave it and I can respect that. In any case back to Qi (but I have to admit I think everything that could be said has been in a nutshell.)

[Hendrik]

Hendriks,

I totally value your way of training chi gong because it does not conflict with any my sifu's internal training as well as my personal views on internal martial arts. Furthermore IMHO as well as based on my conversations with you and those who have met you I can honestly say that your opinion on the topic of internal wing chun training matters. In fact personally the only other person on this forum whose opinion I hold in that same regard (internal wing chun training) is John (imperialtaichi). Your information, to those that's can get past your brand of vocabulary and delivery, is valuable. These are my honest feeling and having said that I feel your five layer model is quite good especially for those who know wing chun but do not practice it internally. IMO, It is Not helpful for those who already know either because the information is redundant for them or they have "no more room in their cup". Either way I know you don't care what people think and in true dharmic fashion you still share, either they take it or leave it and I can respect that. In any case back to Qi (but I have to admit I think everything that could be said has been in a nutshell.)



Thanks.

As I told those who visited me, now you have the core basic. when will your Siu Lin Tau is going to be awaken? that is my hidden agenda.

[Scott R. Brown]

Again, I like this but it is still not accurate enough so I 'filled in' where I thought it may help link to what I have already suggested here...

Well, I was posting from my cf and it is not very easy to get too in-depth when you are posting from your cf.


And this is one of the biggest misconceptions about Qi...

Concerning food and clean air......the traditional view is that Qi permeates all things, that after birth qi is acquired through food and air, and cultivation practices. Except that these things are inherently healthy on their own separate a postulation of the involvement of qi. In other words, postulating qi does not make these things more healthy than they already are.

My point was to demonstrate that there are benefits to these things separate from creating an elaborate philosophy around a possibly imaginary substance that cannot be objectively demonstrated to exist.


What practise is WITHIN Energy itself? Plenty of ways to nurture it, to use it and to prove it exists too. But exactly what is energy??

There is NO PRACTISE to the existence of energy itself! Qi exists from the day we are born until the day we die and the 3 types of influences I have highlighted can be manipulated by ourselves to enhance our life without any PRACTISE whatsoever. Having been taught a specific 'practise' to benefit how we breathe or use the 'air' around us just means we have been fortunate.

The idea of qi cultivation is contrived concept. Qi does not require cultivation. It follows principles. If one does not interfere with it, it is abundant within your body. Intentional Qi cultivation is like trying to swim or trying to breath. The more you focus on it and TRY to do it, the less effective the result.

The rules for truly cultivating qi are no different than the rules for living a healthy life. It does not require any effort whatsoever. You simply do it, and the results will follow naturally as water flowing down hill.

Intentional qi cultivation is an aberration started by those who do not understand the principles of Tao, or qi. The act itself creates imbalances.

The perceived effects and demonstrations of its presence are contrived as well. They are only demonstrated according narrow parameters fixed by the demonstrator. This makes the demonstration ineffective in demonstrating the true effects of qi. If one has true qi cultivation, which is no-cultivation, the effects are practically imperceptible.

The more perceptible the effects, the greater the imbalance of qi within the person.

[Scott R. Brown]

And you forgot to say "he doesn't know he doesn't know"

Scott keeps trying to say that there is no Qi, but most people are aware that there is Qi, and what is it is what this thread is about.

No I am not. You do not know what I am trying to say!


If Scott wants proof, he needs to put in the time and training to develop his own Qi, but since he is to lazy to do the work necessary to develop his own Qi, he likes to attack people who have done the work necessary to develop Qi,

Been there, done that, graduated past it!

As a novice concerning qi it is natural for you to believe this. If you get to the deeper understanding, your view will change. If your view does not change, you are still a novice!


Because flapping his jaw na saying doesn't take much work for the arm chair MA expert with no experience.

Not much different than what you are doing then, is it?


People who have developed Qi, use it all the time, which is proof enough that it is real and they know how they developed it, and it is not developed by hard exercise.

If you are spending your time developing your qi, you still do not understand qi or the principles of Tao!

If you intend to develop it you don't have it regardless of what you think you feel. "Developing" qi whether through internal means or external means, is what beginners do!


I will say one thing, exercising is a lot easier than developing chi.

No, it is not! The methods used to develop qi are contrived systems that over-complicate a basically simple process. It is for novices. Under the right teacher it may be a means to greater end. Unfortunately there are too many who do not understand it is merely a rung on the ladder, and a lower rung at that.


But if you have a personality or mind set that will not let you develop chi, you will never find it, or maybe your afraid that it might exist and you have been wrong all these years and wasted all that time hard training and wrong preaching, so you try to mislead people into your narrow thinking to make yourself feel better.

A beginner thinks this way! This is what a child does to try to justify his world-view when it is challenged, but does not have the greater perspective gained from maturity. Your knowledge is incomplete.

As with Hendrik it is most likely not your fault. The deeper teachings are rarely taught. Once again, either your teacher was never given the deeper teachings, or you did not display the proper attitude in order to receive it. Some people do not have the foundation for it and so are not given the deeper teachings, others do not have the proper temperament and will never receive the deeper teachings.


Good luck with your narrow view of how things work, and when you get sick, just exercise more.

Cheers

A clear misunderstanding and/or misrepresentation of what I am saying.

Cheers yourself!

[xinyidizi]

really? let's see - let's take a random sample of 100 people and have them walk out in front of a speeding train one at a time; I think that without exception, they would all experience "physical reality" in exactly the same manner...

So what? take a random sample of 10,000 deaf people, stand behind them where they can't see you and tell them a joke. I think without exception no one will laugh at you. BTW my sample group has two more zeros.

[Scott R. Brown]

In a way, I don't really need to know what Qi is.

When I use anaesthetics on a patient, I care about its effectiveness, adverse reactions, dosage, interactions with other drugs, basic mechanism and whether the patient is allergic to it.

The exact biochemical pathway I'll let the biochemist and pharmacologist work it out and tell me and develop it; my job is how to effectively and safely use it.

As a martial artist, I'm only interested in effectiveness: If the Qi model helps me produce a certain result, I'll use it; if Athletic types of training helps me develop certain attributes, I'll use it too. I just need to know enough to advance my training and not to get myself into trouble. I'll leave the rest to the scientists, alchemists and philosophers to study it.

Keep it coming guys!

p.s. more Chinese Stirfry wisdom: I don't need to eat the whole plate, I just pick the bits I like with my chopsticks :D

Nicely stated, John!:)

[Scott R. Brown]

So what? take a random sample of 10,000 deaf people, stand behind them where they can't see you and tell them a joke. I think without exception no one will laugh at you. BTW my sample group has two more zeros.

If you had said, "each person experiences reality differently according to their foundational beliefs about life/reality" it would have been more clear!

Even this response doesn't really make much sense in response to TGY's comment!
Unless you meant to demonstrate that, in your opinion, his point was non-sense by posting a non-sensical response.

[xinyidizi]

Unless you meant to demonstrate that, in your opinion, his point was non-sense by posting a non-sensical response.

I meant what I said in my example. "each person experiences reality differently according to their foundational beliefs about life/reality" is a valid opinion if everyone in the sample group has the ability to perceive a phenomenon. In that case how they would react would totally depend on their beliefs. For example where most people would be afraid of walking in front of a train and would step back, a few heartbroken suicidal teenagers in the group could actually take it as an opportunity and would jump in front of the train willingly. However this is not what I meant in my analogy. For example in seeing auras, qi, etc you actually need to train and open your third eye and before that it is impossible to see anything. So in this case it is about literally having the physical ability to perceive a physical phenomenon not about analyzing and reacting to a phenomenon you have successfully perceived.

[anerlich]

:rolleyes:Deaf people feel the vibrations of loud music.

Show your 10,000 deaf people two people conversing without signing using sound, many would hopefully realise there is something else going on (unless they are blind as well ... cue the Who's "Tommy" and Metallica's "One").

You mightn't be able to see sense high energy gamma rays, but those f*ckers will kill you anyway.

Of course, seeing two people actually converse is not the same as two deaf people using stage magic techniques to give the illusion of conversing and telling people they too can converse if they buy my $249.95 "qi hearing" course ... which too often is closer to what actually goes on.

I agree with the others that the analogy is poor. Physical reality is not subjective. Sensation thereof is, and is also easily manipulated, including fooling one's self.


For example in seeing auras, qi, etc you actually need to train and open your third eye and before that it is impossible to see anything.

iyiyi ... OK cue "Third Eye" by Tool ...:rolleyes:

[Happy Tiger]

It's no coincidence that much of qi gong and qi technology is alchemical in essence and description. Ideas like distillation, fermentation,transmutation and purification are conceptually described in detail. Western Alchemy was a mysterious, valiant and very valid attempt to describe manipulate and record natural phenomena. Occult ideas of measurement even more obscure were given deep examination also, the minds of the time seeing scientific patterns where none should be
The spirit of alchemy is within the TCM model.

[Scott R. Brown]

I meant what I said in my example. "each person experiences reality differently according to their foundational beliefs about life/reality" is a valid opinion if everyone in the sample group has the ability to perceive a phenomenon. In that case how they would react would totally depend on their beliefs. For example where most people would be afraid of walking in front of a train and would step back, a few heartbroken suicidal teenagers in the group could actually take it as an opportunity and would jump in front of the train willingly. However this is not what I meant in my analogy. For example in seeing auras, qi, etc you actually need to train and open your third eye and before that it is impossible to see anything. So in this case it is about literally having the physical ability to perceive a physical phenomenon not about analyzing and reacting to a phenomenon you have successfully perceived.

I see.

Keep in mind not everyone needs to develop such abilities. Some people are born with them, others acquire them inadvertently.

In Ch'an such abilities are often considered distractions. They are nothing more than skills acquired that are neither more special nor necessarily more beneficial than other skills that may also be acquired.

A good cook is more valuable than some who can see auras.

[Scott R. Brown]

It's no coincidence that much of qi gong and qi technology is alchemical in essence and description. Ideas like distillation, fermentation,transmutation and purification are conceptually described in detail. Western Alchemy was a mysterious, valiant and very valid attempt to describe manipulate and record natural phenomena. Occult ideas of measurement even more obscure were given deep examination also, the minds of the time seeing scientific patterns where none should be
The spirit of alchemy is within the TCM model.

There were prominent Taoists of the past who understood the alchemical allusions were metaphorical only. It is unfortunate today people are either manipulated by unscrupulous teachers or have not learned the deeper meanings and confuse allegory with reality.

[xinyidizi]

A good cook is more valuable than some who can see auras.

Not necessarily. A lot of information on TCM, meridians, qigong, etc were gathered by people who had developed such abilities. In the hands of a healer this ability can help many people.

[imperialtaichi]

You mightn't be able to see sense high energy gamma rays, but those f*ckers will kill you anyway.

Hahahaha, stealing this one.

[Happy Tiger]

This isn't a physical theory of qi. Are you happy with a supernatural theory?Hi Guy. For me, I'm not much a fan of supernatural as super science. Not a single holy grail in science worshipped in the past is solid in the light of now. The speed of light?...Busted, E= MC 2? Not only is that equation itself not accurate (no negative) but is now seen as only a description of the bare law of our local neighbourhood. All glass ceilings are smashed.

[anerlich]

Hi Guy. For me, I'm not much a fan of supernatural as super science. Not a single holy grail in science worshipped in the past is solid in the light of now. The speed of light?...Busted, E= MC 2? Not only is that equation itself not accurate (no negative) but is now seen as only a description of the bare law of our local neighbourhood. All glass ceilings are smashed.

A lot of TCM holy grails and glass ceilings got smashed by science as well.

Newtonian physics still holds up pretty well on the human level. It hardly got "smashed".

[anerlich]

Quote:
A good cook is more valuable than some who can see auras.


Not necessarily. A lot of information on TCM, meridians, qigong, etc were gathered by people who had developed such abilities. In the hands of a healer this ability can help many people.

Sure, take that to your local soup kitchen and see how helpful your abilities to manipulate auric fields are. Avoid the simple, practical stuff at all costs, playing around with esoterica has far more change of success - NOT.

Is there a market for an "Auric MasterChef" program on TV?

[Happy Tiger]

Hi Guy. For me, I'm not much a fan of supernatural as super science. Not a single holy grail in science worshipped in the past is solid in the light of now. The speed of light?...Busted, E= MC 2? Not only is that equation itself not accurate (no negative) but is now seen as only a description of the bare law of our local neighbourhood. All glass ceilings are smashed.
The beauty and irony of incomplete knowledge is it stimulates imagination
(visualisation/intention,thought) this may ad potency to relationships that are strongly influenced by this architecture but also can lead to indoctrination and stagnation

[anerlich]

The beauty of incomplete knowledge is it stimulates imagination
(visualisation/intention,thought) this may ad potency to relationships that are strongly influenced by this architecture

Just don't confuse "incomplete knowledge" with "wilful ignorance".

[Happy Tiger]

Just don't confuse "incomplete knowledge" with "wilful ignorance".very true...a branch of indoctrination,yes?

[xinyidizi]

Speaking of science I read in an article that in the last few days scientists have finally succeeded to find proof for the existence of a particle named higgs boson which will rule out many previous theories.
The truth is that science is making huge break throughs and the things physicists are predicting in theory (and proving or ruling them out as better technology gets available for their experiments) don't sound less crazier than many supernatural or paranormal theories. Dark matter, multiverse and time travel are just a few examples I can think of.
For now it is best to practice qigong, seeing auras, astral projection, etc as subjective experiences as they are and at the same time do(or at least wait for) more scientific research on them separately. Hopefully science will catch up soon but until then from the point of view of science it would be stupid to talk about these so called paranormal phenomena like "qi" without enough evidence to prove or disprove them.

By definition until all the knowledge in the universe has been discovered everything in the knowledge gathered by scientific methods is just a probability because there is no guarantee that in a few days someone else doesn't comes up with a better or more complete discovery. That's why real scientists always keep an open mind without taking anything personally. Ignorant people however are afraid of change and always want to blindly believe in something fixed. It can be religion,mysticism or even science.

[Scott R. Brown]

I would say that more people have been saved, made healthy, from good cooks than from psychic aura readers in the history of man.

I have known a substantial number of psychic aura readers, shaman etc in my life I would say upwards of 20, and they are generally not that impressive.

I know, I know, I just haven't met the right ones....right?

My response is...... Yes..... I have.

Not impressive in the least.

[Scott R. Brown]

.....when we can say something is "qi" and NOT have to prove it, then ANYTHING can be "qi".

I am qi....and so is my wife!!!

[xinyidizi]

I would say that more people have been saved, made healthy, from good cooks than from psychic aura readers in the history of man.

I have known a substantial number of psychic aura readers, shaman etc in my life I would say upwards of 20, and they are generally not that impressive.

I know, I know, I just haven't met the right ones....right?

My response is...... Yes..... I have.

Not impressive in the least.

I don't see how this can be relevant but if you want to make a good analogy you should also know that qigong/daoyin, acupuncture, considerable part of tuina, herbal medicine, traditional food therapy, etc all come from the information that were gathered by people who could see and sense energy. In that case how many people have been healed by acupuncture, herbal medicine, ancient shaman-doctors ... or by doing qigong themselves?

Secondly can you provide statistics for comparing the people who were healed by the above methods and those who were healed by cooks(excluding foods prepared using TCM theories.) in the human history ?

[Hendrik]

I limit my discussion in tcm and martial art , qigong only.

It is normal to see the condition of one's qi , in tcm this is called 內景 or internal scenery . When the mind quiet, it is natural to see different color. The different color indicate the different qi condition or internal organ condition.

This in tcm is called 心色不二or mind and matter are non dual, what happen in mind shows up in the physical , what happen in the physical shows up in mind.

These are natural human ability. Nothing mysterious.

[Happy Tiger]

There were prominent Taoists of the past who understood the alchemical allusions were metaphorical only. It is unfortunate today people are either manipulated by unscrupulous teachers or have not learned the deeper meanings and confuse allegory with reality.
Yes, IMO very true. I like your style.

[Happy Tiger]

In a way, I don't really need to know what Qi is.

When I use anaesthetics on a patient, I care about its effectiveness, adverse reactions, dosage, interactions with other drugs, basic mechanism and whether the patient is allergic to it.

The exact biochemical pathway I'll let the biochemist and pharmacologist work it out and tell me and develop it; my job is how to effectively and safely use it.

As a martial artist, I'm only interested in effectiveness: If the Qi model helps me produce a certain result, I'll use it; if Athletic types of training helps me develop certain attributes, I'll use it too. I just need to know enough to advance my training and not to get myself into trouble. I'll leave the rest to the scientists, alchemists and philosophers to study it.

Keep it coming guys!

p.s. more Chinese Stirfry wisdom: I don't need to eat the whole plate, I just pick the bits I like with my chopsticks :D
:):):):):) Love it!!!

[Happy Tiger]

The chinese know what it is , how to sense it, measure it, grow it, channel it.

Only those who called themself scientic doesn't know it and not be able to explain it.
The chinese are just as scientific as any other culture. I feel qi very strongly. I'm just not wise and smart enough to suggest I know for a fact everything about it. Newton figured out alot of predictions to gravity...but hadn't the faintest clue what it was or why it was. Some at the time would have said that was all there was to know and continued research was dangerous and pointless. The search for continuing knowlege and wisdom is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men :)
I'm just kidding there. Your understanding of the chinese view point of qi is very deep. I can see that for you qi is just like your blood.

[Hendrik]

The chinese are just as scientific as any other culture. I feel qi very strongly. I'm just not wise and smart enough to suggest I know for a fact anything about it. Newton figured out alot of predictions to gravity...but hadn't the faintest clue what it was or why it was. Some at the time would have said that was all there was to know and continued research was dangerous and pointless. The search for continuing knowlege and wisdom is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men :)
I'm just kidding there. Your understanding of the chinese view point of qi is very deep. I can see that for you qi is just like your blood.



I am an engineer.
Tv wireless broadcast always works, it doesn't have to wait for the scientist to decide if ether exist or not. Years ago they say no ether, now they say yes ether. Tv always works disregard of what they say.

[Happy Tiger]

I am an engineer.
Tv wireless broadcast always works, it doesn't have to wait for the scientist to decide if ether exist or not. Years ago they say no ether, now they say yes ether. Tv always works disregard of what they say.
True enough :). But the TV may do so many other things we barely can imagine yet...which is why TV's figure into horror movies so much. Science\Art\faith is all the same thing chinese hei gong is a science.
When Einstein was doing his thing with the relativity thang, quantum mechanics was just starting to catch fire. He had to turn his back on it totally to get on with his work because it was twisting his brain too much. The relativity formulas were and still are valid. Now how ever we know that most of it does not apply very well to QM. There's no doubt it's only practical to work with what you've got. That's how we get things done...that's all we can do,really. For me, I use chinese hei gong and TCM technology to do my work. I know it works...but it won't surprise me one bit if it turns out it's level of depth is merely that of general relativity next will be the quantum age

[Scott R. Brown]

I am an engineer.
Tv wireless broadcast always works, it doesn't have to wait for the scientist to decide if ether exist or not. Years ago they say no ether, now they say yes ether. Tv always works disregard of what they say.

Uhhh.....No TV wireless does not always work!

First, there must be a transmitter.

Second, there must be a receiver.

Third, the quality of the transmission signal AND the ability of the receiver to receive are objectively measurable!

Fourth, Yes we did have to wait for the scientists to investigate and create the ability to transmit and receive TV wireless signals!

Fifth, If you have a receiver, but no transmitter, you will NOT receive any understandable signals and your receiver will then be useless.

Sixth, If you have a transmitter and no receiver, your transmitter will then be useless!

:rolleyes:

[Scott R. Brown]

I don't see how this can be relevant but if you want to make a good analogy you should also know that qigong/daoyin, acupuncture, considerable part of tuina, herbal medicine, traditional food therapy, etc all come from the information that were gathered by people who could see and sense energy. In that case how many people have been healed by acupuncture, herbal medicine, ancient shaman-doctors ... or by doing qigong themselves?

Secondly can you provide statistics for comparing the people who were healed by the above methods and those who were healed by cooks(excluding foods prepared using TCM theories.) in the human history ?

WOW!!!! :eek::eek:

It is interesting to see the New Age community has yet to develop any reasoning ability!

1) Food is necessary to live.

2) EVERYONE eats food.

3) Most people eat food EVERYDAY.

4) Most people eat more than once per day.

5) Good food is necessary in order to grow and live healthily.

6) Sick people generally require specific foods to promote healing.

7) Most people eat food that is COOKED.

8) Cooked food requires a COOK.

9) Cooks Cook Cooked Food.

10) Properly prepared food makes the food more palatable.

11) The more palatable the food, the more likely people will eat it.

12) Therefore Cooks provide a necessary service to mankind by providing meals to the hungry, that have the added benefit of being palatable, which influences people to eat the food, which is necessary to grow, remain healthy, and return to health when sick!!

13) That was easy wasn't it!!!:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

14) I got a better idea Einstein....how about you provide YOUR evidence that these "intuitive individuals" throughout history used their magical powers to acquire information on "qigong/daoyin, acupuncture, considerable part of tuina, herbal medicine, traditional food therapy, etc" and that no one used reason, trial and error or any other possible research method to gain the information that these methods have acquire over the centuries?

[Robinhood]

No I am not. You do not know what I am trying to say!



Been there, done that, graduated past it!

As a novice concerning qi it is natural for you to believe this. If you get to the deeper understanding, your view will change. If your view does not change, you are still a novice!



Not much different than what you are doing then, is it?



If you are spending your time developing your qi, you still do not understand qi or the principles of Tao!

If you intend to develop it you don't have it regardless of what you think you feel. "Developing" qi whether through internal means or external means, is what beginners do!



No, it is not! The methods used to develop qi are contrived systems that over-complicate a basically simple process. It is for novices. Under the right teacher it may be a means to greater end. Unfortunately there are too many who do not understand it is merely a rung on the ladder, and a lower rung at that.



A beginner thinks this way! This is what a child does to try to justify his world-view when it is challenged, but does not have the greater perspective gained from maturity. Your knowledge is incomplete.

As with Hendrik it is most likely not your fault. The deeper teachings are rarely taught. Once again, either your teacher was never given the deeper teachings, or you did not display the proper attitude in order to receive it. Some people do not have the foundation for it and so are not given the deeper teachings, others do not have the proper temperament and will never receive the deeper teachings.



A clear misunderstanding and/or misrepresentation of what I am saying.

Cheers yourself!


Yes you have given the correct responses Scott,... OK , you have passed the tests.

Now......everyone have car.....who know how to drive ?


Yes everyone has chi, but how many people can use it in MA?







Cheers

[Scott R. Brown]

Yes you have given the correct responses Scott,... OK , you have passed the tests.

Now......everyone have car.....who know how to drive ?

It is MY job to patronize please!!!!:p


Yes everyone has chi, but how many people can use it in MA?

This is my main point.......

It is unnecessary to TRY to use qi or develop qi!

It is unnecessary to intentionally TRY to develop qi! In fact, it could be detrimental!

If one's goal is to learn to fight, train to fight! Just as bodies adapt to the type of training a person performs, for example, all swimmers have a somewhat similar physique, as do gymnasts, football players, boxers, etc. The qi you need will develop naturally according to your training.

If one's goal is to make friends, influence people and get chicks, practice qigong and then let cars drive over you, let strangers hit you with boards, and pull jet liners with your testicles!

But don't pass yourself off as a fighter, which presumably is what a MA is supposed to be. These types of people don't fight for a reason, they can't fight.

If some idiot has learned to suck up his balls to protect them, so what, I'll kick his knee.

If some idiot tries to use his iron shirt skill on me, so what I'll kick his knee!

If some idiot tries to.......etc......

Cheers!;)

[xinyidizi]

WOW!!!! :eek::eek:

It is interesting to see the New Age community has yet to develop any reasoning ability!

1) Food is necessary to live.

2) EVERYONE eats food.

3) Most people eat food EVERYDAY.

4) Most people eat more than once per day.

5) Good food is necessary in order to grow and live healthily.

6) Sick people generally require specific foods to promote healing.

7) Most people eat food that is COOKED.

8) Cooked food requires a COOK.

9) Cooks Cook Cooked Food.

10) Properly prepared food makes the food more palatable.

11) The more palatable the food, the more likely people will eat it.

12) Therefore Cooks provide a necessary service to mankind by providing meals to the hungry, that have the added benefit of being palatable, which influences people to eat the food, which is necessary to grow, remain healthy, and return to health when sick!!

13) That was easy wasn't it!!!:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:



This is getting sillier and sillier. It's the nutrition in the food that our body needs and in many cases(but not all) being cooked doesn't make much of a difference, also in many cases cooking can result in reducing some vitamins.


14) I got a better idea Einstein....how about you provide YOUR evidence that these "intuitive individuals" throughout history used their magical powers to acquire information on "qigong/daoyin, acupuncture, considerable part of tuina, herbal medicine, traditional food therapy, etc" and that no one used reason, trial and error or any other possible research method to gain the information that these methods have acquire over the centuries?

Sorry but I have got dibs on asking for evidence.

[Scott R. Brown]

This is getting sillier and sillier. It's the nutrition in the food that our body needs and in many cases(but not all) being cooked doesn't make much of a difference, also in many cases cooking can result in reducing some vitamins.

I agree you are getting sillier and sillier with every post!

Most people have had other people cook their food for them for many of their meals. Those who prepare their own food cook it themselves.

Cooks are an indespensible part of society play a major role in health and well-being! Hence a good cook is more valuable than a nutty psychic!:p

[nasmedicine]

Tv wireless broadcast always works, it doesn't have to wait for the scientist to decide if ether exist or not.

For me the above statement speaks volumes. Others should take notice.

[Robinhood]

It is MY job to patronize please!!!!:p



This is my main point.......

It is unnecessary to TRY to use qi or develop qi!

It is unnecessary to intentionally TRY to develop qi! In fact, it could be detrimental!

If one's goal is to learn to fight, train to fight! Just as bodies adapt to the type of training a person performs, for example, all swimmers have a somewhat similar physique, as do gymnasts, football players, boxers, etc. The qi you need will develop naturally according to your training.

If one's goal is to make friends, influence people and get chicks, practice qigong and then let cars drive over you, let strangers hit you with boards, and pull jet liners with your testicles!

But don't pass yourself off as a fighter, which presumably is what a MA is supposed to be. These types of people don't fight for a reason, they can't fight.

If some idiot has learned to suck up his balls to protect them, so what, I'll kick his knee.

If some idiot tries to use his iron shirt skill on me, so what I'll kick his knee!

If some idiot tries to.......etc......

Cheers!;)


Well no, most still can't use much chi even by fighting, because they are literally fighting and the chi stops flowing. You need to learn how to keep the energy flowing when fighting.

It is an interaction of 2 live people, not between water and you, or gravity and you, etc.,those are fixed resistance mediums, not interactive participants .


Cheers

[nasmedicine]

Well no, most still can't use much chi even by fighting, because they are literally fighting and the chi stops flowing. You need to learn how to keep the energy flowing when fighting.

I agree and one of the ways (and IMO the most simple) I was taught to keep the flow is to relax the muscles and joints (which is not a new concept in fighting or for chi cultivation/release but is very effective).

Cheers,

- Nirav

[Scott R. Brown]

Fighting does not stop qi flow. Illness, injury, and the mind inhibit the natural flow of qi.

It does not require interaction with others to flow or manifest. It will do what it does naturally as long as one does not interfere with it.

Interacting with others is for skill development and learning to relax under challenging and stressful circumstances.

Cheers

[SimonM]

The speed of light?...Busted, .

Not so much; the latest data suggests that tachyons and other such near-0-mass particles do not actually exceed the speed of light.


Speaking of science I read in an article that in the last few days scientists have finally succeeded to find proof for the existence of a particle named higgs boson which will rule out many previous theories.

First off, don't jump the gun. Two teams at CERN observed a novel boson which behaves in the way they expect the Higgs boson to behave. That is not the same as finding PROOF that the Higgs boson exists.

Second, the primary importance of the Higgs boson is that it provides a strong piece of evidence supporting the standard model of Quantum Physics; effectively deep-sixing some of the more exotic elements of alternate interpretations (eg: string theory) which were primarily developed to get around the lack of support for the Higgs.

[Happy Tiger]

Not so much; the latest data suggests that tachyons and other such near-0-mass particles do not actually exceed the speed of light
Hi Simon M.Oh, yeah...soooo much!:):)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5ZFUjur1ug
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhyHCj_cVKk&feature=related
and that's just the tip of the iceberg.

[taai gihk yahn]

First off, don't jump the gun. Two teams at CERN observed a novel boson which behaves in the way they expect the Higgs boson to behave. That is not the same as finding PROOF that the Higgs boson exists.

Second, the primary importance of the Higgs boson is that it provides a strong piece of evidence supporting the standard model of Quantum Physics; effectively deep-sixing some of the more exotic elements of alternate interpretations (eg: string theory) which were primarily developed to get around the lack of support for the Higgs.

thank you...


http://i.imgur.com/JaaqD.jpg

[SimonM]

You've just been waiting to post that graphic, haven't you.

Have to say - every headline that says "God Particle" makes me cringe.

[taai gihk yahn]

There were prominent Taoists of the past who understood the alchemical allusions were metaphorical only.
except, of course, for the ones who took it literally, ingested cinnabar, and subsequently "became one with the Tao" in a rather decided manner...

[taai gihk yahn]

You've just been waiting to post that graphic, haven't you.

Have to say - every headline that says "God Particle" makes me cringe.

yes, like a frickin' gargoyle on a church spire... ;)

[SimonM]

Hi Simon M.Oh, yeah...soooo much!:):)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5ZFUjur1ug
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhyHCj_cVKk&feature=related
and that's just the tip of the iceberg.

Your references are out of date.

See this: http://www.latimes.com/news/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-faster-than-light-neutrino-cern-20120611,0,2050787.story

Also, in reference to your sources: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_cosmology - note that the youtube source you referenced is a proponent of a variant of plasma cosmology, one of the less likely exotic interpretations I was speaking of a little earlier.

It doesn't play well with observed supermassive black holes or with cosmic background radiation.

[taai gihk yahn]

I guess that in a world where we are supposed to understand that the statement


Physical reality is different for different people.

actually means


each person experiences reality differently according to their foundational beliefs about life/reality

then I suppose that the idea that someone can suggest with a straight face that someone can


Pick up a random card from a deck and put it somewhere in your room without looking at it. Go out of your body and project to your room and view the card.

just doesn't seem so crazy anymore...

[nasmedicine]

Fighting does not stop qi flow.

IMO, This is correct. It is not the fighting that causes the flow to diminish but rather how one fights. In particular how "calm/loose" one can keep the mind (in WC the SLT is supposed to aid one achieving this) and body (joints and muscles). This of course is very simplistic way of looking at the fighting aspect of it but I feel that it's a good starting point for people to understand the concept.

[Happy Tiger]

Your references are out of date.

See this: http://www.latimes.com/news/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-faster-than-light-neutrino-cern-20120611,0,2050787.story

Also, in reference to your sources: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_cosmology - note that the youtube source you referenced is a proponent of a variant of plasma cosmology, one of the less likely exotic interpretations I was speaking of a little earlier.

It doesn't play well with observed supermassive black holes or with cosmic background radiation.
O.K., ya got me:):o >bows deeply<

[Vajramusti]

Practice the forms well- the Qi will take care of itself.

[anerlich]

his is correct. It is not the fighting that causes the flow to diminish but rather how one fights. In particular how "calm/loose" one can keep the mind (in WC the SLT is supposed to aid one achieving this) and body (joints and muscles). This of course is very simplistic way of looking at the fighting aspect of it but I feel that it's a good starting point for people to understand the concept.

I can hear the announcer now at the next WC/IMA world championships:

"His chi flow is so strong! He got his @ss kicked in the bout, but who cares?"

[anerlich]

The chinese are just as scientific as any other culture.

This thread demonstrates that fruitcakery also transcends culture and geography, including astral geography for those so inclined.

[anerlich]

Practice the forms well- the Qi will take care of itself.

Finally, some common sense.

[anerlich]

Hopefully science will catch up soon but until then from the point of view of science it would be stupid to talk about these so called paranormal phenomena like "qi" without enough evidence to prove or disprove them.

Opinions vary. Some have it that science accellerated past such phenomena and left them in the dust some time ago.

[guy b.]

Physical reality is different for different people. Imagine that there was an isolated island where people were all born deaf. How could you convince them that there was such a thing as sound?

No dude, physical reality is physical reality. It doesn't change depending on subjective experience of it

[guy b.]

Qi exists disregard of what theory or what the human like to theoritesize it.

This is like saying God exists regardless of a coherent physical theory explaining the subjective experience of God.

Your belief in qi is therefore a faith, not a rational position in accordance with reality and supported by evidence. It is unfalsifiable and doesn't amount to an argument any rational person should take any notice of.

[anerlich]

More on the HB:

[guy b.]

and you dont know TCMA internal, so what for you to say?

Unless you are prepared to venture a physical theory of qi and talk about what qi is in physical terms then it is not possible for you to say that I do not experience it. The above sentence is merely a person with faith in something unfalsifiable saying that someone else is not of the faith, i.e. it is a meaningless criticism

[guy b.]

In a way, I don't really need to know what Qi is.

When I use anaesthetics on a patient, I care about its effectiveness, adverse reactions, dosage, interactions with other drugs, basic mechanism and whether the patient is allergic to it.

The exact biochemical pathway I'll let the biochemist and pharmacologist work it out and tell me and develop it; my job is how to effectively and safely use it

You don't need to know the exact biochemical pathway to hold a physical theory of how anaesthetics work. Believing that anaesthetics are drugs that act upon biochemical pathways to produce anaesthesia is a coherent and falsifiable physical theory for how they work.

You aren't proposing that anaesthetics produce some kind of previously unidentified and unidentifiable energy source to flow from the void and make your pain go away, are you?

[guy b.]

This is what happen.

氣 Or qi means brearhing。

炁 means 先天真氣 pre birth real qi or short form 真氣 real qi or zhen qi.
In modern day qigong writing, some even make further short cut form as 氣 qi to imply it is talking about zhen qi. That short cut get people confused.

Then, there is a character 脈 Mai. Mai means the flow path of the per birth real qi.

So, when on grow the zhen qi, after it is charged up to a certain level, the zhen qi will start to flow accord to a path. that path is Mai.

For ordinary male , after the Zhen qi charge up, it has three paths to go , flowing to the 12 medirians and dissipate in the body, flowing to the sexual organ and eject from there, or those who cultivate qigong, flow into du medirian, recycle back to the Dan dien via ren medirian and keep accumulating to another higher charged level.

So, is qi real? Can it be measured ?
Yes. One can feel its grow and charge up in Dan Tien and flow. When one has sex or sick the level of charge will drop.

The ancient Chinese, including the WCK yik kam writing of 1850.
Always refer to 氣脈 qi mai or 練氣修脈 these mean cultivate the( lower abs ) breathing and the flow of the zhen qi.

So, there is no ambiguity in the qi layer, and it is not the breathing layer, the physical layer, or mind layer.

That is a layer of one's body one has to go in and knowing it. It exists similar to our physical joints or breathing.

Thus, if one use the term qi and jing, one better know exactly what it is and have handle on them as it is. Even under the research labs investigation.

Otherwise, what do one refer to? Another alibi which will set one up for failure because one can never deliver or a ego booster to impress some one for short term fame?

I do think it is the time enough is enough for all those cannot deliver claim in internal tcma. But present them it is as it is. So, for the martial artists there is no secret and magic, for those choose tcm or qigong for healing know the bottom line of the healing without misleading.

None of this describes what you think qi actually is in physical terms, lol

[guy b.]

John,

Very well put together statement. IMO, Bottom line, its the end result that matters. No matter what one may think Chi is/isn't or how it's develops as long as one is getting the results they are looking for then that's all that matters. Who am I to tell someone what they practice is right or wrong especially when, despite all this discussion, nobody can say with 100 percent certainty what Chi is. The one thing that can be said with 100 percent certainty is that the phenomenon indeed exists and stills warrants further investigation into it's purpose and atributes. For example there are many on this forum who don't exactly suscribe to Hendriks methods however there are many on here that do, and there are many in between. In the grand scheme of things does it mean that hendrichs is right or wrong? no, absolutely not! it's completely subjective whether one agrees/doesn't agree (and Hendrik is fine with that). If somebody wants to think that chi is astral projection and particles floating around that's completely fine. if somebody wants to think that chi is nothing more then pure athletics that's fine to. If someone wants to think that this is all nonsense, great. As long as a person does not try to say that they indeed have the correct answer and that their answer is the end all be all. It's no skin off anyone's back because Nobody has "The" answer. I don't care who they are or how well read one is. The topic is not objective enough. Just my two cents.

The bottom line is that you need to have a physical theory of what you are talking about for it to be falsifiable and therefore meaningful. Anyone is free to believe in gods, aliens, or teapots orbiting the moon but these beliefs are rightly not accorded the same respect as those which can be falsified using physical evidence. You understand this, right? It is ok if you want qi to be like religion, but that doesn't really help the idea go anywhere useful

[guy b.]

So what? take a random sample of 10,000 deaf people, stand behind them where they can't see you and tell them a joke. I think without exception no one will laugh at you. BTW my sample group has two more zeros.

Um, what to say to this?

The fact that deaf people can't hear noise does not mean noise does not exist.

[nasmedicine]

I can hear the announcer now at the next WC/IMA world championships:

"His chi flow is so strong! He got his @ss kicked in the bout, but who cares?"

LOL, this would be true if the announcers practiced internal martial arts, TCMA, or TCM. Besides I don't think the score cards have a chi flow tic on them. :rolleyes:

[guy b.]

Hi Guy. For me, I'm not much a fan of supernatural as super science. Not a single holy grail in science worshipped in the past is solid in the light of now. The speed of light?...Busted, E= MC 2? Not only is that equation itself not accurate (no negative) but is now seen as only a description of the bare law of our local neighbourhood. All glass ceilings are smashed.

This is the strength of a scientific approach: it is always open to falsification and is therefore the best available model of reality. Unchangeable and unfalsifiable beliefs that do not have basis in physical reality are not comparable. They do not even enter the ring to compete

[taai gihk yahn]

Physical reality is different for different people.


No dude, physical reality is physical reality. It doesn't change depending on subjective experience of it

see, apparently you missed the part where you were told what it really means:


I meant what I said in my example. "each person experiences reality differently according to their foundational beliefs about life/reality"

how could you have missed something this obvious (well, evidently so did I...)



This thread demonstrates that fruitcakery also transcends culture and geography, including astral geography for those so inclined.

I like my fruitcakery in either tart or muffin form...

[nasmedicine]

The bottom line is that you need to have a physical theory of what you are talking about for it to be falsifiable and therefore meaningful. Anyone is free to believe in gods, aliens, or teapots orbiting the moon but these beliefs are rightly not accorded the same respect as those which can be falsified using physical evidence. You understand this, right? It is ok if you want qi to be like religion, but that doesn't really help the idea go anywhere useful

If you read my earlier posts you have your answer on where I stand on chi. I am (nor is anyone on this forum an expert on this topic.

I will pay. 1 million dollars to the genius that can quantify this phenomenon with 99.9999 percent certainty. :-) I can say this because I am 99.9999 percent sure that it will not occur.

And for the record wtf does religion have to do with anything please tell me?

[guy b.]

If you read my earlier posts you have your answer on where I stand on chi. I am (nor is anyone on this forum an expert on this topic.

I will pay. 1 million dollars to the genius that can quantify this phenomenon with 99.9999 percent certainty. :-) I can say this because I am 99.9999 percent sure that it will not occur.

And for the record wtf does religion have to do with anything please tell me?

All I hope for is that people come out from their shells and say what they think qi is in physical terms. I don't see how we can begin to discuss it until we do this.

It isn't dangerous to venture an opinion unless you have a lot invested in being an authority. Those people will tend just to waffle vague esoteric crap when challenged

[guy b.]

And for the record wtf does religion have to do with anything please tell me?

It is unfalsifiable, like most common theories of qi

[nasmedicine]

All I hope for is that people come out from their shells and say what they think qi is in physical terms. I don't see how we can begin to discuss it until we do this.

It isn't dangerous to venture an opinion unless you have a lot invested in being an authority. Those people will tend just to waffle vague esoteric crap when challenged

well my friend let me tell you one thing if you looking for an authority I can tell you you're not gonna find it on this forum. Unless somebody would now like to take the opportunity and introduce themselves as the authority on chi? I wouldn't hold my breath. And also I'm not quite sure if you know but an opinion is pretty much someone educated guess or their personal believe. In the end it is up to you to take it into consideration or not,yes? not to try to convince the other person that what there saying is wrong. Opinions are not debatable, however the facts are. So far everything I've said on this forum and in the history that I've been a member is, and has always been an opinion. Unless it pertains to my particular system of training. One fact that I have mentioned is that chi does exist, it is not some type of magical hocus pocus mumbo jumbo. This is why organizations like the world health organization takes chinese traditional medicine seriously, despite the fact that the message and the mechanisms of action cannot be proven all they know is that the results are there and that's all the evidence they need. Let's be honest how much more I can we seriously squeeze out of this topic it hasn't already been said up until now?

[nasmedicine]

It is unfalsifiable, like most common theories of qi

I'm not a religious person so I really can't comment.

[imperialtaichi]

You don't need to know the exact biochemical pathway to hold a physical theory of how anaesthetics work. Believing that anaesthetics are drugs that act upon biochemical pathways to produce anaesthesia is a coherent and falsifiable physical theory for how they work.

You aren't proposing that anaesthetics produce some kind of previously unidentified and unidentifiable energy source to flow from the void and make your pain go away, are you?

???? What the.... you are joking, right?

[guy b.]

well my friend let me tell you one thing if you looking for an authority I can tell you you're not gonna find it on this forum. Unless somebody would now like to take the opportunity and introduce themselves as the authority on chi? I wouldn't hold my breath.

Just pointing out that you cannot debate something you do not attempt to define first. An authority of the usual kind is the last thing I want

[guy b.]

???? What the.... you are joking, right?

No. Extreme detail is not necessary for a theory to be physical and falsifiable at the level at which it operates.

[nasmedicine]

Just pointing out that you cannot debate something you do not attempt to define first. An authority of the usual kind is the last thing I want

Fair enough.

[imperialtaichi]

No. Extreme detail is not necessary for a theory to be physical and falsifiable at the level at which it operates.

So, I make an example using anaesthetics, a mordern day drug; and somehow, quoted out of context, and it becomes how I think it's mechanism is Qi related....

Did I misunderstand your point, or you hopelessly misunderstand mine (I think most people get what I was saying)?

[anerlich]

Unless somebody would now like to take the opportunity and introduce themselves as the authority on chi? I wouldn't hold my breath.

If I were purporting to be the authority on chi, I wouldn't be holding my breath either. Not good for the chi flow, or so the self-appointed forum chi pundits have it.

[nasmedicine]

If I were purporting to be the authority on chi, I wouldn't be holding my breath either. Not good for the chi flow, or so the self-appointed forum chi pundits have it.

This is true holding ones breath is not good. Very nice observation. You know they even taught that when I was in medical school.

P. S. I also think the self appointed forum chi pundits are also aware of that wonderfully insightful morsel of information. :-)

[anerlich]

holding your breath can be good sometimes. Intra-abdominal pressure for heavy lifting. And underwater.

You've been to medical school!!!!!!!!!!! Where they teach everything about chi!!!!

If you want to impress us all with your erudition, by all means make an appeal to authority. As long as the school wasn't the Institute of Paranormal Medicine or Witch Doctor High, of course.

[YouKnowWho]

holding your breath can be good sometimes ... underwater.

I'm going to say that too. If you need to dive 30 feet to get out of water for fresh air, whether you can hold your berath long enough can decide your live or dead.

It's not good or bad. It's a MUST.

[nasmedicine]

holding your breath can be good sometimes. Intra-abdominal pressure for heavy lifting. And underwater.

You've been to medical school!!!!!!!!!!! Where they teach everything about chi!!!!

If you want to impress us all with your erudition, by all means make an appeal to authority. As long as the school wasn't the Institute of Paranormal Medicine or Witch Doctor High, of course.

holding your breath is good for lifting weights? you're kidding right? increasing abdominal pressure?! LOL, ever heard of something called a hernia? What about an aneurysm? LOL. Enough said. As far as Chi/Prana is concerned that is part of my culture no medical school needed. ;-)

I'm sorry that educational background threatened you, it was not my intent.

[taai gihk yahn]

holding your breath is good for lifting weights? you're kidding right? increasing abdominal pressure?! LOL, ever heard of something called a hernia? What about an aneurysm?

you are wrong


it's fine to increase intra-abdominal pressure for bracing while lifting - it's called a vasalva maneuver - u do it every time to have a bowel movement, there's nothing wrong with it, it's part of normal physiology - it's a common misconception amongst qigong people that this is harmful, even though it's actually done during certain types of qigong; if u have ever lifted, u realize very quickly how it helps - u r not straining anything, it actually helps stabilize ur core

hernias and aneurysms are pathological conditions that occur on their own, doing a valsalva doesn't create them; it may exacerbate them, but that's once they r already there

[taai gihk yahn]

You know they even taught that when I was in medical school.
and where, pray tell, did u attend medical school? and did u graduate? and what is ur specialty?

[Scott R. Brown]

except, of course, for the ones who took it literally, ingested cinnabar, and subsequently "became one with the Tao" in a rather decided manner...

Well I guess they got what they deserved then.


Practice the forms well- the Qi will take care of itself.

Hmmmm.... I think that is what I have been saying!


This thread demonstrates that fruitcakery also transcends culture and geography, including astral geography for those so inclined.

Fruitcakes have a place in the the Taoverse too!



This is like saying God exists regardless of a coherent physical theory explaining the subjective experience of God.

Your belief in qi is therefore a faith, not a rational position in accordance with reality and supported by evidence. It is unfalsifiable and doesn't amount to an argument any rational person should take any notice of.

All experience of reality is determined by subjectivity. Life is nothing but a subjective interpretation of phenomena. There really is no such thing as objectivity. Objectivity is founded upon subjectivity.

[nasmedicine]

you are wrong


it's fine to increase intra-abdominal pressure for bracing while lifting - it's called a vasalva maneuver - u do it every time to have a bowel movement, there's nothing wrong with it, it's part of normal physiology - it's a common misconception amongst qigong people that this is harmful, even though it's actually done during certain types of qigong; if u have ever lifted, u realize very quickly how it helps - u r not straining anything, it actually helps stabilize ur core

hernias and aneurysms are pathological conditions that occur on their own, doing a valsalva doesn't create them; it may exacerbate them, but that's once they r already there

Sorry but that is simply not true. Valvalsa should never be done when when lifting heavy weight period. The amount of the intrabdomal pressure you have during a bowel movement is not the same as when you're lifting heavy weights! My god. What you end up doing is increasing not only the intrabdomal pressure but you also increase intracranial pressure and the pressure within all of the other organs. No physician in there right mind would recommend this unless the person was extremely fit and even then still not a good idea. For the record and anybody reading this I would advice please do not hold your breath, you'll hurt yourself. If you don't get hurt you eventually will.

Lol, Your suppose to physical therapist yet you don't know this basic physiology? You don't even take into consideration the patients risk factors? You just assume everyone is a perfect specimen? I may not be an authority on chi cultivation but I definitely not sit back and let you give bad health advice. I wonder how many referrals you get from physicians...

[nasmedicine]

and where, pray tell, did u attend medical school? and did u graduate? and what is ur specialty?

LOL you are not serious right? Are going to interview me for some type of fellowship? Unless you're offering me a job there is no reason for me to give you my resume especially on this forum? Seriously you are ridiculous.

[xinyidizi]

see, apparently you missed the part where you were told what it really means:

Originally Posted by xinyidizi
I meant what I said in my example. "each person experiences reality differently according to their foundational beliefs about life/reality"



how could you have missed something this obvious (well, evidently so did I...)


You are clearly dishonest in quoting the complete sentences from my post. I suspected that you were such a person. Now I suspect that most probably you were also dishonest about your in depth training in qigong.
There is no shame in failing. It might be because of lack of discipline, lack of talent or not having access to genuine instructors but whatever the reason is I suggest that you stay with what you know in terms of scientific explanations and don't get yourself involved in things like qi which you were not trained enough to know.

@guy b.:

Um, what to say to this?

The fact that deaf people can't hear noise does not mean noise does not exist.

Exactly. By the same logic if you were not trained to open your heavenly eye and see qi doesn't mean that qi doesn't exist.
In Buddhism 5 different kinds of eyes are mentioned and the second type is your 天眼(heavenly eye). If you read chinese search for 开天眼. You can also search for 看光法 which I think is the daoist term and consists of 内光(internal light) and 外光(external light) which refer to internal and external qi. There are also books on seeing aura in English that might be helpful.

[Happy Tiger]

A good, up to date paper on the subject
http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CFMQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.item-bioenergy.com%2Finfocenter%2FChineseChiResearch.do c&ei=nQf1T8_cN8qgrAHH1_nZAw&usg=AFQjCNE3jpnx4SIw0Jmyw38ftssHN5lyfg

[taai gihk yahn]

Sorry but that is simply not true. Valvalsa should never be done when when lifting heavy weight period. The amount of the intrabdomal pressure you have during a bowel movement is not the same as when you're lifting heavy weights! My god. What you end up doing is increasing not only the intrabdomal pressure but you also increase intracranial pressure and the pressure within all of the other organs. No physician in there right mind would recommend this unless the person was extremely fit and even then still not a good idea. For the record and anybody reading this I would advice please do not hold your breath, you'll hurt yourself. If you don't get hurt you eventually will.
have u ever actually studied Olympic weight lifting technique?
http://www.catalystathletics.com/articles/article.php?articleID=37
while there are potential adverse effects, but also means of mitigating them;
the key point as the article points out is using the breath to stabilize;
I have done this, it's totally fine - of course, I was not lifting anywhere near the level of the top guys, but in terms of the technique itself, there was no sense of straining - I have felt more from doing something like "Closing the Iron Gate" type of qigong

[taai gihk yahn]

LOL you are not serious right? Are going to interview me for some type of fellowship? Unless you're offering me a job there is no reason for me to give you my resume especially on this forum? Seriously you are ridiculous.

no; u say that u went to Medical School, attempting to establish yourself as an authority of some type; u volunteered the information; since you brought it up, I am asking a f/u question; if any one is behaving ridiculously, it's you;

why is it such a big deal to relay this? for example, I am a PT w a Master's Degree from Columbia University; there; that wasn't hard, was it?

[Scott R. Brown]

Sorry but that is simply not true. Valvalsa should never be done when when lifting heavy weight period. The amount of the intrabdomal pressure you have during a bowel movement is not the same as when you're lifting heavy weights! My god. What you end up doing is increasing not only the intrabdomal pressure but you also increase intracranial pressure and the pressure within all of the other organs. No physician in there right mind would recommend this unless the person was extremely fit and even then still not a good idea. For the record and anybody reading this I would advice please do not hold your breath, you'll hurt yourself. If you don't get hurt you eventually will.

Your suppose to physical therapist yet you don't know this basic physiology? You don't even take into consideration the patients risk factors? You just assume everyone I a perfect specimen? I may not be an authority on chi cultivation but I definitely sit back and let you give bad health advice.

You don't know what you are talking about. Every weight lifter hold his breath for part of his lift and then slowly exhales as the lift progresses. There are no rampant aneurysms or hernias amongst this group.

You are a fine example of a Doctor Who is full of himself..... If you are a Doctor.

[nasmedicine]

have u ever actually studied Olympic weight lifting technique?
http://www.catalystathletics.com/articles/article.php?articleID=37
while there are potential adverse effects, but also means of mitigating them;
the key point as the article points out is using the breath to stabilize;
I have done this, it's totally fine - of course, I was not lifting anywhere near the level of the top guys, but in terms of the technique itself, there was no sense of straining - I have felt more from doing something like "Closing the Iron Gate" type of qigong

No but I have studied orthopedics. It may be fine for you, it may be fine for an olympic athlete. But unless you're trying to defecate, or ascultate or heart murmurs, it is NOT fine for the general public.

[taai gihk yahn]

You are clearly dishonest in quoting the complete sentences from my post.
yeah, and also I provided the links back to your original post, meaning that if someone wants to read the post in its entirety, they r perfectly capable of doing so; so how is that being dishonest?


I suspected that you were such a person. Now I suspect that most probably you were also dishonest about your in depth training in qigong.
wow, you will just try to come up with any sort of rationalization to support your perspective; you can't possibly entertain the slightest possibility that I am correct; you must be either massively insecure or...no, I guess that's all there is;


There is no shame in failing. It might be because of lack of discipline, lack of talent or not having access to genuine instructors but whatever the reason is I suggest that you stay with what you know in terms of scientific explanations and don't get yourself involved in things like qi which you were not trained enough to know.
lol; I guess you have succeeded in ur qigong training, since it's resulted in ur becoming an arrogant bastid like most qigong "experts";
trust me, u have NO idea about my training - if u did, it wud make ur brain short circuit, because it wudn't jive w ur limited world view of how u think that things shud b

[Scott R. Brown]

No but I have studied orthopedics. It may be fine for you, it may be fine for an olympic athlete. But unless you're trying to defecate, or ascultate or heart murmurs, it is NOT fine for the general public.

Most athletic activities are not for the general public! This is a martial arts forum where participants may be presumed to be somewhat fit!

[nasmedicine]

You don't know what you are talking about. Every weight lifter hold his breath for part of his lift and then slowly exhales as the lift progresses. There are no rampant aneurysms or hernias amongst this group.

You are a fine example of a Doctor Who is full of himself..... If you are a Doctor.

LOL, Of course, of course you would know right? Tell this to all the average (not a "weight lifter") people who ruptures these hidden aneurysms (most people don't know they have them until they do rupture) or those who come to the ER for inguinal hernias/abdominal hernias. These people are athletes nor are screened by physicians before injuring themselves. Yes I am a horrible doctor. ;-)

[nasmedicine]

Most athletic activities are not for the general public! This is a martial arts forum where participants may be presumed to be somewhat fit!

Presume away my friend. It's really working for you. :-)

[taai gihk yahn]

No but I have studied orthopedics.
r u an orthopedist?
from ur defensiveness, I have the feeling that u either a) never completed medical school; b) did so outside of the states and never got ur ECFMG certification; c) u are a DO practicing family medicine; d) a PM&R doc who really doesn't do much of anything at all
I'm also surprised that u haven't trashed me for being "only" a PT - usually by now that's where the conversation goes w docs when I have the audacity to not be shocked into abject silence when they post here...


It may be fine for you, it may be fine for an olympic athlete. But unless you're trying to defecate, or ascultate or heart murmurs, it is NOT fine for the general public.
u r wrong; it's perfectly fine; heck, they teach this at cross fit classes all the time - I have seen middle age Long Island housewives do this and be just fine; really, u r embarrassing urself, and shud just stop now

[taai gihk yahn]

LOL, Of course, of course you would know right? Tell this to all the average (not a "weight lifter") person who ruptures these hidden aneurysms (most people don't know they have them until they do rupture) and come to to the ER for inguinal hernias/abdominal hernias. These people are athletes nor are screened by physicians before injuring themselves. Yes I am a horrible doctor. ;-)
people with hidden aneurisms or unknown hernias r just as likely to "blow" them out going through their normal ADL's than anything else; how many people have u seen this happen as a result of doing weightlifting with correct technique?

[Scott R. Brown]

Presume away my friend. It's really working for you. :-)

Much better than for you, clearly!

You don't know a thing about lifting heavy objects. So either your presumptions or your education or both have failed you miserably!

[taai gihk yahn]

Much better than for you, it clearly!

You don't know a thing about lifting heavy objects. So either your presumptions or your education or both have failed you miserably!

don't make fun of foreign / osteopathic medical school grads - they are people too...

[nasmedicine]

people with hidden aneurisms or unknown hernias r just as likely to "blow" them out going through their normal ADL's than anything else; how many people have u seen this happen as a result of doing weightlifting with correct technique?

I'm not talking about correct technique and correct technique only offers some protection not 100 percent. If one has weightlifting for many years and having not injured themselves I would consider themselves lucky. I have seen two professional football players both have abdominal herniations from doing so a dead lift and a squat. In both cases they only noticed the pain a few days later and had no history of hernia. According to them they did nothing unusual. On the other hand I've seen many cases of regular average everyday people usually male in their 40s - 50s coming to in with hernias as a result of lifting various objects. It's very common. But in any case if you would really like to talk about the subject matter, we should start another thread and we can talk about this in more detail.

[nasmedicine]

don't make fun of foreign / osteopathic medical school grads - they are people too...

Very mature. Because of us you make/made your living.

[taai gihk yahn]

I'm not talking about correct technique and correct technique only offers some protection not 100 percent. If one has weightlifting for many years and having not injured themselves I would consider themselves lucky. I have seen two professional football players both have abdominal herniations from doing so a dead lift and a squat. In both cases they only noticed the pain a few days later and had no history of hernia. According to them they did nothing unusual. On the other hand I've seen many cases of regular average everyday people usually male in their 40s - 50s coming to in with hernias as a result of lifting various objects. It's very common. But in any case if you would really like to talk about the subject matter, we should start another thread and we can talk about this in more detail.

you're trying to lateralize the issue, which is whether or not it is intrinsically harmful to hold the breath while doing weight lifting; u r claiming that it is a bad idea under any circumstances to do so, citing specific pathologies as rationales for never doing it at all, and I am telling u that, in the absence of pathology, it is perfectly fine when done correctly as part of standard Olympic lifting technique (of course if u do it wrong, that's a different story, but we are talking baseline principle here, not specific application); obviously if someone has an occult aneurysm it's a bad idea, but chances r that person will blow it out from doing any number of things;

u r still avoiding the question of ur background in medicine

[taai gihk yahn]

Very mature. Because of us you make/made your living.

actually, no, I don't - in case u didn't know, PT's have direct access in NYS; so we don't actually need u guys at all, except to refer out to when someone comes in w something outside of our scope of practice; not that we ever did "need" u, considering the BS medical diagnoses that typically accompanied pt's back in the days when a script was a pre-requisite - I used to waste more time explaining to docs what was really going on then I actually spent fixing the people who came in w issues (my personal favorite is a diagnosis of "sciatica" - ah, how astute - calling a symptom a diagnosis - wow, how many yrs of med school did it take to tease that one out, lol); so please, don't make me laugh;

and again, what is it that u actually do?

[Scott R. Brown]

I'm not talking about correct technique and correct technique only offers some protection not 100 percent. If one has weightlifting for many years and having not injured themselves I would consider themselves lucky. I have seen two professional football players both have abdominal herniations from doing so a dead lift and a squat. In both cases they only noticed the pain a few days later and had no history of hernia. According to them they did nothing unusual. On the other hand I've seen many cases of regular average everyday people usually male in their 40s - 50s coming to in with hernias as a result of lifting various objects. It's very common. But in any case if you would really like to talk about the subject matter, we should start another thread and we can talk about this in more detail.

Wow!! Two whole people!!

Wood Hoo!! Let's make an ignorant blanket statement presuming the injuries came from holding their breath!!

Let me tell you Einstein... I have been lifting weights for 36 years and never had an injury from weight training. I have known or interacted with probably 100 or so weight lifters. None of them suffered injuries from holding their breath. Most injuries are either from freak accidents or doing something stupid!


Very mature. Because of us you make/made your living.

Address your own immaturity before you concern yourself with the behavior of others!

[nasmedicine]

you're trying to lateralize the issue, which is whether or not it is intrinsically harmful to hold the breath while doing weight lifting; u r claiming that it is a bad idea under any circumstances to do so, citing specific pathologies as rationales for never doing it at all, and I am telling u that, in the absence of pathology, it is perfectly fine when done correctly as part of standard Olympic lifting technique (of course if u do it wrong, that's a different story, but we are talking baseline principle here, not specific application); obviously if someone has an occult aneurysm it's a bad idea, but chances r that person will blow it out from doing any number of things;

u r still avoiding the question of ur background in medicine

This is going no where. If you feel that what I have said in correct then I don't have any other response. I can only speak on my experience and what is know if that's not good enough for you then that's okay with me. As far as my credentials, I'm not avoiding, I think I made it clear that my resume is not up for grabs. Those who know on this forum know, if not then you have no reason to know. If that was the case then I would have posted it in my profile. I have nothing else to say on the matter.

[nasmedicine]

Address your own immaturity before you concern yourself with the behavior of others!

Fair enough.

[taai gihk yahn]

I have seen two professional football players both have abdominal herniations from doing so a dead lift and a squat. In both cases they only noticed the pain a few days later and had no history of hernia.
let me ask u a question - if they noticed the pain a few days later, how do u or they know that the hernia was from doing the lifting? how do u / they know it wasn't from something else, like, oh, I don't know, playing football professionally?!


According to them they did nothing unusual.
and u just took them at their word? I can't tell u how many times a new pt comes in telling me the same thing, and upon more skillful questioning, something they hadn't thought of comes to light...


On the other hand I've seen many cases of regular average everyday people usually male in their 40s - 50s coming to in with hernias as a result of lifting various objects. It's very common.
yes, it is; so common in fact that it really can't be used as a rationalization not to hold the breath while lifting weights...

[taai gihk yahn]

This is going no where. If you feel that what I have said in correct then I don't have any other response. Unlike you sir I have work in the morning.
how do you know that I don't have work in the morning? :confused:


As far as my credentials, I'm not avoiding, I think I made it clear that my resume is not up for grabs.
you have made it clear, but it makes no sense; I don't get why u r avoiding stating the nature of ur medical practice? how is that problematic? I'm not asking for ur name or where u work - just what ur area of relative expertise is - if ur a an orthopedic surgeon or PM&R guy, I will take ur opinion on musculuskeletal stuff far more seriously than if u r ID or OB/GYN, for example; it's just a matter of context - I;m not interrogating u, just curious


Those who know on this forum know, if not then you have no reason to know.
the reason is to understand ur area of relative expertise so as to be able to put ur statements into context


If that was the case then I would have posted it in my profile. I have nothing else to say on the matter.
that's too bad, because it just makes it look very suspicious

watch: I am a PT; my practice is evenly divided between orthopedics, chronic pain and pediatrics; my area of relative specialization is osteopathic manual therapy approach in the above areas; I also utilize various forms of 'integrated" ther ex, including aspects of qigong, yoga, Feldenkries and Pilates;

see? now u know what I do and where I am coming from; how hard was that?

[nasmedicine]

let me ask u a question - if they noticed the pain a few days later, how do u or they know that the hernia was from doing the lifting? how do u / they know it wasn't from something else, like, oh, I don't know, playing football professionally?!


and u just took them at their ? I can't tell u how many times a new pt comes in telling me the same thing, and upon more skillful questioning, something they hadn't thought of comes to light...


yes, it is; so common in fact that it really can't be used as a rationalization not to hold the breath while lifting weights...

It's not my objective to see if they are lying or not just to make sure that they get the help they deserve. To answer your other question if was not during the season and they never had anything on their previous and very detailed PE's. But anyways I am going to end this conversation. It is my hope clear that you really just want to have the last word so you can have it. It is also clear that I am not welcome on this thread so I respectfully bow out. Good night. If you are really interested (not likely) in continuing this conversation then we will do it via PM some other time.

[taai gihk yahn]

It's not my objective to see if they are lying or not just to make sure that they get the help they deserve.
who said they were lying? I'm talking about accurate reporting - I mean, c'mon - pt's subjective reporting is typically riddled w inaccuracies - our job is to tease out the truth as much as possible;


To answer your other question if was not during the season and they never had anything on their previous and very detailed PE's.
ok, so then that makes more sense - it was a reasonable question, and u answered it; not so hard, right?


But anyways I am going to end this conversation. It is my hope clear that you really just want to have the last word so you can have it.
I don't want it - I'd be happy to give it to you if u just answer the simple question as to what area of medicine you practice in; r u a general surgeon? that wud explain seeing the hernias;


It is also clear that I am not welcome on this thread so I respectfully bow out.
really? u think u r not welcome? that's kinda lame to a) think that and b) beg off accordingly; I mean, it's a MA forum - u can't handle a little adversarialness (which isn't even a real word)?


Good night. If you are really interested (not likely) in continuing this conversation then we will do it via PM some other time.
why PM? why not just talk it out publicly?

[nasmedicine]

how do you know that I don't have work in the morning? :confused:


you have made it clear, but it makes no sense; I don't get why u r avoiding stating the nature of ur medical practice? how is that problematic? I'm not asking for ur name or where u work - just what ur area of relative expertise is - if ur a an orthopedic surgeon or PM&R guy, I will take ur opinion on musculuskeletal stuff far more seriously than if u r ID or OB/GYN, for example; it's just a matter of context - I;m not interrogating u, just curious


the reason is to understand ur area of relative expertise so as to be able to put ur statements into context


that's too bad, because it just makes it look very suspicious

watch: I am a PT; my practice is evenly divided between orthopedics, chronic pain and pediatrics; my area of relative specialization is osteopathic manual therapy approach in the above areas; I also utilize various forms of 'integrated" ther ex, including aspects of qigong, yoga, Feldenkries and Pilates;

see? now u know what I do and where I am coming from; how hard was that?

I'm sorry but I'm not comfortable with that especially now with what was originally a fun conversation about a topic that I enjoy to a personal attack on my credentials, my profession and my knowledge. In any case if I acted out of character if I've offended anybody I apologize. I am finished with this thread and the conversation about my personal information.

[nasmedicine]

who said they were lying? I'm talking about accurate reporting - I mean, c'mon - pt's subjective reporting is typically riddled w inaccuracies - our job is to tease out the truth as much as possible;


ok, so then that makes more sense - it was a reasonable question, and u answered it; not so hard, right?


I don't want it - I'd be happy to give it to you if u just answer the simple question as to what area of medicine you practice in; r u a general surgeon? that wud explain seeing the hernias;


really? u think u r not welcome? that's kinda lame to a) think that and b) beg off accordingly; I mean, it's a MA forum - u can't handle a little adversarialness (which isn't even a real word)?


why PM? why not just talk it out publicly?

No I definitely not a surgeon, nor am I some kind of big hot shot doctor I'm just a simple doctor I work in a very big practice with my friends who are are from various specialties. I see many cases for surgical clearance due to the fact that our practice is right next to a very busy surgery clinic. In any case I'm off to bed.

[taai gihk yahn]

I'm sorry but I'm not comfortable with that especially now with what was originally a fun conversation about a topic that I enjoy to a personal attack on my credentials, my profession and my knowledge.
oh, c'mon, lighten up; u have to understand, we've had a few people here over the years who have claimed medical credentials that have turned out to be non-existent; there are also several physicians on here who are quite knowledgeable and legitimate; if ur credentials r for real, then what's the problem w stating them? u were the one who first mentioned u went to medical school - maybe u never graduated; how can one know that? ok, I'm sorry if I was goofing on you being a FMG - hey, my wife is one, and she's the smartest doc I've ever met (OB/GYN), so clearly it has nothing to do w capacity; same w being a DO - I just tend to yank their chains bec they like to yank mine; PM&R - well, that's a bit harder to justify, lol...
as for ur knowledge, yes, I and Scott (who is an RN, btw), took issue w some of ur claims about the supposed dangers of breathing while weight lifting, and provided evidence as to why we felt u were incorrect; how is that problematic?


In any case if I acted out of character if I've offended anybody I apologize. I am finished with this thread and the conversation about my personal information.
no one is asking for any "personal" information - just what u do professionally;

[taai gihk yahn]

No I definitely not a surgeon, nor am I some kind of big hot shot doctor I'm just a simple doctor I work in a very big practice with my friends who are are from various specialties. I see many cases for surgical clearance due to the fact that our practice is right next to a very busy surgery clinic. In any case I'm off to bed.

ok, so u r IM/GP; gotcha; that puts things into context; it's all I was asking

my wife works in a big practice too - sees up to 50 pts a day sometimes - crazy environment that u all r expected to practice in and deliver quality service, my hat's off to u for that...

[nasmedicine]

ok, so u r IM/GP; gotcha; that puts things into context; it's all I was asking

my wife works in a big practice too - sees up to 50 pts a day sometimes - crazy environment that u all r expected to practice in and deliver quality service, my hat's off to u for that...

Sorry if my posts sometime don't make sense with grammar or I dont reply with to much detail or the entire posts. I am replying from my phone 90 percent of the time. Well I appreciate your hats off to me. As you may know already from your wife we FMG's don't get much respect (relatively speaking) in the states which is why your comment left a bad taste in my mouth (and struck a nerve). Anyways our "back and forth" was fun but got way to hot for no reason IMO. Also, my wife went physical therapy school (almost completed it) before dropping out to become an NP. Any ways I didn't mean to attack you personally or your profession. You come across as very knowledgeable and I respect that (that goes for you to Mr. Brown). Reading back on all the other posts that started this mess I feel that it's so stupid how things get out of hand. All I want to do is talk about Chi! lol. I don't know about your guys but here it's about 1:00 am. And this time I am definitively going to bed.

[taai gihk yahn]

Sorry if my posts sometime don't make sense with grammar or I dont reply with to much detail or the entire posts. I am replying from my phone 90 percent of the time. Well I appreciate your hats off to me. As you may know already from your wife we FMG's don't get much respect (relatively speaking) in the states which is why your comment left a bad taste in my mouth (and struck a nerve).
to put it in context, my wife frequently trashes US medical school grads as having no ability in terms of clinical medicine (she was trained, very thoroughly, in former USSR) she still occasionally freaks out other docs by picking up PE's a few days before they happen just by recognizing various signs / symptoms; two of her OB/GYN practice partners are FMG's and they r the ones she respects the most (there's one who graduated from Harvard med school who routinely has the highest rates of shoulder dystocia in the practice, so...)' another one of my friends is an FMG and is has of the busiest colorectal surgery practices in his area (I try to avoid shaking hands w him when we meet...);


Anyways our "back and forth" was fun but got way to hot for no reason IMO. Also, my wife went physical therapy school (almost completed it) before dropping out to become an NP.
she made the right choice; IMPO, PT these days as a profession is in a runaway car driving over the edge of a cliff, because of the whole entry-level doctorate silliness - 2-3 extra years of school w/out any increase in salary; that, and the private practice scene is a mess - scheduling 4-6 pts per hour u get nothing done - it's all about maximizing billing, bec that's how u have to survive - u kno the deal (well, i see 1-2 pt / hour, but I am lucky, i can afford that bec of my wife's salary); I weep for my profession, and am embarrassed by how many people go to PT for months on end with absolutely no results; frankly, I tell everyone who is interested, to forget it and become a PA!


Any ways I didn't mean to attack you personally or your profession. You come across as very knowledgeable and I respect that (that goes for you to Mr. Brown). Reading back on all the other posts that started this mess I feel that it's so stupid how things get out of hand. All I want to do is talk about Chi! lol. I don't know about your guys but here it's about 1:00 am. And this time I am definitively going to bed.
this forum is traditionally a "knock on the pot and see where it cracks" kind of environment; the first rule is never take anything personally, and look at it as just another form of MA training; even those of us who have been here a long time and get along give each other a hard time now and again;
especially so if u want to talk about "qi" which is a very contentious issue;

[taai gihk yahn]

You are a fine example of a Doctor Who is full of himself..... If you are a Doctor.

a Doctor Who? which one?!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/80/Versions_of_the_Doctor.jpg

[Scott R. Brown]

a Doctor Who? which one?!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/80/Versions_of_the_Doctor.jpg

Tee Hee!

Good one! I missed it completely. That's what happens when you're asleep at the wheel.

[nasmedicine]

to put it in context, my wife frequently trashes US medical school grads as having no ability in terms of clinical medicine (she was trained, very thoroughly, in former USSR) she still occasionally freaks out other docs by picking up PE's a few days before they happen just by recognizing various signs / symptoms; two of her OB/GYN practice partners are FMG's and they r the ones she respects the most (there's one who graduated from Harvard med school who routinely has the highest rates of shoulder dystocia in the practice, so...)' another one of my friends is an FMG and is has of the busiest colorectal surgery practices in his area (I try to avoid shaking hands w him when we meet...);


she made the right choice; IMPO, PT these days as a profession is in a runaway car driving over the edge of a cliff, because of the whole entry-level doctorate silliness - 2-3 extra years of school w/out any increase in salary; that, and the private practice scene is a mess - scheduling 4-6 pts per hour u get nothing done - it's all about maximizing billing, bec that's how u have to survive - u kno the deal (well, i see 1-2 pt / hour, but I am lucky, i can afford that bec of my wife's salary); I weep for my profession, and am embarrassed by how many people go to PT for months on end with absolutely no results; frankly, I tell everyone who is interested, to forget it and become a PA!


this forum is traditionally a "knock on the pot and see where it cracks" kind of environment; the first rule is never take anything personally, and look at it as just another form of MA training; even those of us who have been here a long time and get along give each other a hard time now and again;
especially so if u want to talk about "qi" which is a very contentious issue;

Don't get me started on Harvard Med School they are definitely not a John Hopkins though they try to be.

Also my wife is only 90lbs and all the physical manipulation of large patients in school was to much.

Fair enough.

[nasmedicine]

Tee Hee!

Good one! I missed it completely. That's what happens when you're asleep at the wheel.

Top row, third from the left. My favorite Doctor Who. :-)

[taai gihk yahn]

Top row, third from the left. My favorite Doctor Who. :-)

John Pertwee is cool, I haven't seen much of his stuff, but I like him; from the "old" series Peter Davidson (#5) and Tom Baker (#4) were my favs; and just this month, we've been watching the "new" series w Christopher Eccleston (#9) and David Tennant (#10) who are both fantastic - totally new take in some ways, combined w the more familiar mores of "the Doctor"; and the best part is that my wife and son were closet Doctor Who fans all along without knowing it, lol...

[taai gihk yahn]

Don't get me started on Harvard Med School they are definitely not a John Hopkins though they try to be.
I have heard form others that while they r great for research, clinically they r not much better than anywhere else


Also my wife is only 90lbs and all the physical manipulation of large patients in school was to much.
that is a factor, for certain - u can always figure out some strategies to help w ergonomics, but ultimately there is a physical reality u can't ignore;

if she's an NP and u're IM/GP, u guys should just move out to the Hamptons and start a concierge medical service! ;)

[nasmedicine]

I have heard form others that while they r great for research, clinically they r not much better than anywhere else


that is a factor, for certain - u can always figure out some strategies to help w ergonomics, but ultimately there is a physical reality u can't ignore;

if she's an NP and u're IM/GP, u guys should just move out to the Hamptons and start a concierge medical service! ;)

Actually this is all in the works but between her loans, my loans, mortgage, my malpractice insurance and hers.. ect right now it's difficult. Besides I have heard that there is a group of doctors that have cornered this market in North Jersey and parts of NYC. Still I have to do the research. I would actually like to open up a clinic for those less fortunate. So many people can't afford health care and these are people who work everyday. It's sad. I hope guy b. Doesn't get upset with this side of chat. I apologize in advance if that is the case.

[guy b.]

So, I make an example using anaesthetics, a mordern day drug; and somehow, quoted out of context, and it becomes how I think it's mechanism is Qi related....

Did I misunderstand your point, or you hopelessly misunderstand mine (I think most people get what I was saying)?

You misunderstood my point to a ridiculous degree. Read it again and take yourself out of thee picture

[taai gihk yahn]

Actually this is all it the works but between her loans, my loans, mortgage, my malpractice insurance and hers.. ect right now it's difficult. Besides I have heard that there is a group of doctors that have cornered this market in North Jersey and parts of NYC. Still I have to do the research.
a lot of small practices really felt the bite w the switch over for claim submission to whatever that new format is (5010 or something?); my wife's practice is huge - 60,000 active patients, 10 docs (5 f/t, 5 p/t), so they rode it out, but even still had to skip a pay period for the partners, and even they r looking into joining some sort of IPA (since my wife made partner this past year, we have both been getting a fast-track education of what goes on w the business end of a big practice);
as for malpractice, my wife's is $130K a year, if u can process that!
I have another old friend who owns an FP w her husband (both DO's, so when I talk trash to them, it's all in good fun, of course); they had been hurting big time this past year, and they hav a large, successful established practice; so it just suks all over...


I would actually like to open up a clinic for those less fortunate. So many people can't afford health care and these are people who work everyday. It's sad.
I hear you; this is sort of what I am doing - there r PT's in NYC charging ~$200 / hour to do the sort of one-to-one, advanced manual therapy stuff that I do - if I was in Manhattan, I'd b rolling in $; out here on LI, it's a different ballgame - my commitment is to provide high-quality care - 1:1 for an hour; no one can afford to do that if it's their primary source of income, but I decided that, since my wife is making $$$, I can afford to "take the hit", even if it means taking only what a given insurance co would pay for a session ($45 dollars - ugh), and try to deliver a level of care that most people would typically be priced out of;

[nasmedicine]

a lot of small practices really felt the bite w the switch over for claim submission to whatever that new format is (5010 or something?); my wife's practice is huge - 60,000 active patients, 10 docs (5 f/t, 5 p/t), so they rode it out, but even still had to skip a pay period for the partners, and even they r looking into joining some sort of IPA (since my wife made partner this past year, we have both been getting a fast-track education of what goes on w the business end of a big practice);
as for malpractice, my wife's is $130K a year, if u can process that!
I have another old friend who owns an FP w her husband (both DO's, so when I talk trash to them, it's all in good fun, of course); they had been hurting big time this past year, and they hav a large, successful established practice; so it just suks all over...


I hear you; this is sort of what I am doing - there r PT's in NYC charging ~$200 / hour to do the sort of one-to-one, advanced manual therapy stuff that I do - if I was in Manhattan, I'd b rolling in $; out here on LI, it's a different ballgame - my commitment is to provide high-quality care - 1:1 for an hour; no one can afford to do that if it's their primary source of income, but I decided that, since my wife is making $$$, I can afford to "take the hit", even if it means taking only what a given insurance co would pay for a session ($45 dollars - ugh), and try to deliver a level of care that most people would typically be priced out of;

Yes precisely.

Congrats to your wife on the partnership unfortunately this is were the politics begin because now the best interest of the practice has slight priority but many still find ways to balance. I just hate having to turn away a patient due to money (not my rule). Sometime I can slip one by.

Obygyn has the short end of the stick in the malpractice insurance department (blame the lawyers and ridiculous range of liability) :-( I know of two obgyns that just could not afford to practice simple because they couldn't afford malpractice insurance. These days its either partner up or suffer.

No body can really afford to take a hit in this economy, but that doesn't mean we should be so cold either. Luckily there are those who do what they can to make it more bearable for the uninsured.

[anerlich]

holding your breath is good for lifting weights? you're kidding right? increasing abdominal pressure?! LOL, ever heard of something called a hernia? What about an aneurysm? LOL. Enough said.

Your misconceptions here have already been refuted. Read Pavel Tsatsouline's books for detailed info.



I'm sorry that educational background threatened you, it was not my intent.

Threatened? ha ha ha.

Don't flatter yourself or your educational background. It doesn't seem to have transferred too well to other areas of knowledge.

[nasmedicine]

Your misconceptions here have already been refuted. Read Pavel Tsatsouline's books for detailed info.




Threatened? ha ha ha.

Don't flatter yourself or your educational background. It doesn't seem to have transferred too well to other areas of knowledge.

You are correct and I apologize for my remarks. For the record I spoke outside my scope of expertise (especially when it comes to proper body building and strength training, you can also lump all my comments on what I think Chi is as well). I will see if I can download a copy of the book you mentioned for my general knowledge.

[imperialtaichi]

You misunderstood my point to a ridiculous degree. Read it again and take yourself out of thee picture

If we mutually misunderstand each other continuosly, not much point in furthering the discussion. Not interested in turning this into a personal slinging match in cyberspace.

[anerlich]

You are correct and I apologize for my remarks. For the record I spoke outside my scope of expertise (especially when it comes to proper body building and strength training, you can also lump all my comments on what I think Chi is as well).

A gentlemanly response, and I would not want to imply my own statements were all pearls of researched wisdom either.

Truth be told, everyone on this forum makes assertions way outside their areas of expertise pretty regularly.

[nasmedicine]

A gentlemanly response, and I would not want to imply my own statements were all pearls of researched wisdom either.

Truth be told, everyone on this forum makes assertions way outside their areas of expertise pretty regularly.

Thank you and fair enough.

[Paddington]

Sorry to resurrect this well trodden debate/discussion.

The video of a talk by John Vervaeke posted by Robinhood, is very good and very close to the mark with respects to explaining Qi and the bodily mechanisms involved. Yes, it is quite esoteric and some will have to research the terminology and background knowledge that John assumes the listener has already established.

Of course, my praise for Vervaeke is a big IMO but he is supremely worth understanding and I can't help but feel that many posting in this thread just do not want to spend the time, to understand him.


I re-post the link to John's talk below. Many thanks to Robinhood for initially posting it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcp6J1T60qc&amp;feature=related

[nasmedicine]

Sorry to resurrect this well trodden debate/discussion.

The video of a talk by John Vervaeke posted by Robinhood, is very good and very close to the mark with respects to explaining Qi and the bodily mechanisms involved. Yes, it is quite esoteric and some will have to research the terminology and background knowledge that John assumes the listener has already established.

Of course, my praise for Vervaeke is a big IMO but he is supremely worth understanding and I can't help but feel that many posting in this thread just do not want to spend the time, to understand him.


I re-post the link to John's talk below. Many thanks to Robinhood for initially posting it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcp6J...eature=related

The link is not complete and therefore will not work. Is the clip you are referring to titled, "John Vervaeke - Chi Explained Without Magic"

[Paddington]

The link is not complete and therefore will not work. Is the clip you are referring to titled, "John Vervaeke - Chi Explained Without Magic"

Yes, sorry about that. I have edited my post with a working link, I hope.

[Robinhood]

This link

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcp6J1T60qc&amp;amp;feature=related

[Paddington]

This link

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcp6J1T60qc&amp;amp;feature=related

:) . Thanks for posting Robinhood. A quick Q for you, do you follow John and his colleagues more widely with respects to their work?

[Robinhood]

:) . Thanks for posting Robinghood. A quick Q for you, do you follow John and his colleagues more widely with respects to their work?

No, just thought it was interesting, I hadn't see any study's don't on chi before.



Cherrs

[anerlich]

Of course, my praise for Vervaeke is a big IMO but he is supremely worth understanding and I can't help but feel that many posting in this thread just do not want to spend the time, to understand him.


If it takes him an hour eighteen to explain his point, I can't help but feel such reluctance is hardly surprising, and the coherence of the explanation somewhat unlikely. I watched a five minute vid explaining the function of the aforementioned Higgs boson fairly well earlier, and I can't believe chi is sixteen times more complex than particle physics. If it is, none of you "seers of the light" will be able to do zip with it anyway.

Maybe when I have a bit more free time - right now I'm going to the gym to roll ... do something which will definitely help my ability progress ...

[Happy Tiger]

Yes.

The presentation of the above video by the doctor is not about Qi but new age believe. One needs to define qi as the energy which makes tcm accupuncture and herbal work. Instead of getting into all kind of magic force, guidance..Fung shui ....fortunte telling....ect . That sound a lot like some one saying, " that presentation wasn't about Jesus Christ and our Lord God but new age magic like Buddhism, Ying Yangs and other magic mumbo jumbo. :) any description must be filtered first thru the shape allready assumed. Dangerous thinking IMHO

[Xian]

You are going for a supernatural explanation, or claiming science that we do not yet understand? Why?

I would say its my experience, If you want to call it science then it would be my personal one as I am a scientist in someway on my way.


Kind regards,
Xian

[Paddington]

If it takes him an hour eighteen to explain his point, I can't help but feel such reluctance is hardly surprising, and the coherence of the explanation somewhat unlikely. I watched a five minute vid explaining the function of the aforementioned Higgs boson fairly well earlier, and I can't believe chi is sixteen times more complex than particle physics. If it is, none of you "seers of the light" will be able to do zip with it anyway.

Maybe when I have a bit more free time - right now I'm going to the gym to roll ... do something which will definitely help my ability progress ...


It is an academic conference so one would expect the use of technical language and a certain level of depth. Most things in life, Qi included, just cannot, IMO at least, be explained and investigated in a few lines or as bullet points. I don't find your analogy with a video designed for lay consumption of the higgs, comparable to a lecture designed for those researching cognitive and neurological functions.

[Paddington]

That sound a lot like some one saying, " that presentation wasn't about Jesus Christ and our Lord God but new age magic like Buddhism, Ying Yangs and other magic mumbo jumbo. :) any description must be filtered first thru the shape allready assumed. Dangerous thinking IMHO

Which video are you referring to? I take it it is not the one Robinhood posted?


EDIT: So looking at Henrik's post I guess he is referring to that video as it is the only video posted before his comments. TBH, I think Henrik has not understood what John is saying. To say "The presentation of the above video by the doctor is not about Qi but new age believe" is highly disingenuous. From one perspective it implies John is propagating new age belief when in matter of fact it is new age beliefs that John is challenging.

When Henrik then says "One needs to define qi as the energy which makes tcm accupuncture and herbal work. Instead of getting into all kind of magic force, guidance..Fung shui ....fortunte telling....ect", I have to take issue. As I said, John does not get into 'magic forces etc', to say so is to misrepresent him and, indeed, to argue the opposite to him.

John is drawing from academic and scientific literature BTW, that includes scans of neurological and central nervous system activity, experiments and trials etc. What's more that a lot of this research has gone through a peer review process; that is subjected to critique and falsification.

Of course, Henrik might not be referring to John's lecture or that video but looking at the post order and the way Henrik has constructed his post, it does read as I have read it.

[Happy Tiger]

A good, up to date paper on the subject
http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CFMQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.item-bioenergy.com%2Finfocenter%2FChineseChiResearch.do c&ei=nQf1T8_cN8qgrAHH1_nZAw&usg=AFQjCNE3jpnx4SIw0Jmyw38ftssHN5lyfg
I really like this article on the potential of qi and the iinadequacies of current scientific viewpoints to understand the true nature.
Dealing with the issue of incomplete understanding is not easy now or then.
Not long ago all was 'magic'. Science of any sort is a way to understand and accept the mysteries around us. The problem now is the rules. They seem pretty firm but may not be. The main danger is making assumptions about the things we don't understand. We see patterns where none should be.Something is a cause. The seeker accepts this with out too much judgement. The understanding of qi in the end may be uncovered by a completely unrealated study.
The one thing I try to do personally is not to become 'diseased' by the color of my own perseption. The reason qi is hard to describe but for it's effects? That is the question. Either it just doen't exist at all. Or it is a type of scientific process which is not totally in our direct experience. Both possibilities are exiting and leave an open trail of discovery and refinement.

[Paddington]

Not a big fan of that paper I am afraid, not a single proper reference in it and no way for me to check the claims made. I ran a few of the names via an academic databases and did not get any hits with regards to papers published in peer reviewed journals.

If I, with my limited knowledge, can spot errors in that paper then, well, I doubt its authenticity. Some of what the paper claims is just patently false. For example, consider this paragraph.

"Physics teaches us that the speed of light is the fastest velocity at which one may transmit material, energy, and information. Are there any material phenomena that can travel faster than the speed of light? From a qigong perspective, it seems very possible. But what kind of energy can make such a speed possible? This is difficult to assess. At the moment, modern scientific means still cannot discover or practically measure such an energy form. It is likely that the speed of thought is faster than the speed of light, but how can this be measured? How can this phenomenon be captured?"

So many errors here that I don't know where to start. :) . I am quick witted but my wit faster than the speed of light? I think not given the mechanisms involved in discursive cognition, aka thought.

[Happy Tiger]

Not a big fan of that paper I am afraid, not a single proper reference in it and no way for me to check the claims made. I ran a few of the names via an academic databases and did not get any hits with regards to papers published in peer reviewed journals.

If I, with my limited knowledge, can spot errors in that paper then, well, I doubt its authenticity. Some of what the paper claims is just patently false. For example, consider this paragraph.

"Physics teaches us that the speed of light is the fastest velocity at which one may transmit material, energy, and information. Are there any material phenomena that can travel faster than the speed of light? From a qigong perspective, it seems very possible. But what kind of energy can make such a speed possible? This is difficult to assess. At the moment, modern scientific means still cannot discover or practically measure such an energy form. It is likely that the speed of thought is faster than the speed of light, but how can this be measured? How can this phenomenon be captured?"

So many errors here that I don't know where to start. :) . I am quick witted but my wit faster than the speed of light? I think not given the mechanisms involved in discursive cognition, aka thought.
I understand your point of view

[Hendrik]

Which video are you referring to? I take it it is not the one Robinhood posted?


EDIT: So looking at Henrik's post I guess he is referring to that video as it is the only video posted before his comments. TBH, I think Henrik has not understood what John is saying. To say "The presentation of the above video by the doctor is not about Qi but new age believe" is highly disingenuous. From one perspective it implies John is propagating new age belief when in matter of fact it is new age beliefs that John is challenging.

When Henrik then says "One needs to define qi as the energy which makes tcm accupuncture and herbal work. Instead of getting into all kind of magic force, guidance..Fung shui ....fortunte telling....ect", I have to take issue. As I said, John does not get into 'magic forces etc', to say so is to misrepresent him and, indeed, to argue the opposite to him.

John is drawing from academic and scientific literature BTW, that includes scans of neurological and central nervous system activity, experiments and trials etc. What's more that a lot of this research has gone through a peer review process; that is subjected to critique and falsification.

Of course, Henrik might not be referring to John's lecture or that video but looking at the post order and the way Henrik has constructed his post, it does read as I have read it.


My view is, to talk about qi , it is better to bound the qi in the tcm boundary. Chinese have a tendency to called everything qi. And todays new age use the term qi even to the extend of the grace of God.

There will be no end And all confusion to talk about qi like that.

[trubblman]

What is it?

Simple explanations only please.

I think I know what it is but I would like to hear what other people think it is also. I will post my definition after a few replies.

"Without the midi-chlorians, life could not exist, and we would have no knowledge of Qi. They continually speak to us, telling us the will of Qi. When you learn to quiet your mind, you'll hear them speaking to you."

[Robinhood]

"Without the midi-chlorians, life could not exist, and we would have no knowledge of Qi. They continually speak to us, telling us the will of Qi. When you learn to quiet your mind, you'll hear them speaking to you."

A ........ J e t i ......... you will Become !

[Hendrik]

I really never understand why is the following type of public video on qi doesnt seem to get translate into english and shown in the west. Why is the west seems to be purposely disapprove and blocking information ? But then there are all kind of New Age stuffs which is not as well verified but popular.

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzQ3ODYzMTI4.html

[Happy Tiger]

I really never understand why is the following type of public video on qi doesnt seem to get translate into english and shown in the west. Why is the west seems to be purposely disapprove and blocking information ? But then there are all kind of New Age stuffs which is not as well verified but popular.

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzQ3ODYzMTI4.html
Some of the most extreme dissertations on the nature of qi I've read come from chinese research. Chinese cultue is very superstitious.

[Hendrik]

Some of the most extreme dissertations on the nature of qi I've read come from chinese research.

Yup. And why is the qi view people has been practiced for hundreds of years with result not presented? I think it is marketing issue too.


One screw up the Chinese has get into Is to allow all kind of cult put under the name of qigong.

Thus, I personlly, read only the tcm related stuffs, and ignore those cult and magic stuffs .

[anerlich]

One needs to define qi as the energy which makes tcm accupuncture and herbal work.

That's a circular definition, i.e. not a definition at all.

What makes TCM, accupuncture and herbal [medicine] work? Qi.
What's Qi? The stuff that makes TCM, accupuncture and herbal [medicine] work.

[anerlich]

It is an academic conference so one would expect the use of technical language and a certain level of depth. Most things in life, Qi included, just cannot, IMO at least, be explained and investigated in a few lines or as bullet points. I don't find your analogy with a video designed for lay consumption of the higgs, comparable to a lecture designed for those researching cognitive and neurological functions.

Sigh. I guess I'm going to have to listen to the whole turgid exercise. If it turns out to be pompous crap, as I expect, your name is MUD, bro.

[Shadow_warrior8]

Some of the most extreme dissertations on the nature of qi I've read come from chinese research. Chinese cultue is very superstitious.

Knowing is not enough; we must apply. Willing is not enough; we must do.

Anyone who has done qigong formally from a proper teacher, will know what is qi, it is a discovery of your energy- hence it needs personal revelation

All this reports, videos, documents, books all serve to explain something you already do, or know.

Do you need to read why you breath? Or swallow saliva?

Yes chinese are supertitious, but then again so are those who call everything occult, new age, witch craft.

How do we look at hermetics? Is that superstition? Or fact?

[Shadow_warrior8]

Yup. And why is the qi view people has been practiced for hundreds of years with result not presented? I think it is marketing issue too.


One screw up the Chinese has get into Is to allow all kind of cult put under the name of qigong.

Thus, I personlly, read only the tcm related stuffs, and ignore those cult and magic stuffs .

nice video senior

[Shadow_warrior8]

This video is excellent too

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzUzOTQ3NTY4.html

[GlennR]

Knowing is not enough; we must apply. Willing is not enough; we must do.

Anyone who has done qigong formally from a proper teacher, will know what is qi, it is a discovery of your energy- hence it needs personal revelation

All this reports, videos, documents, books all serve to explain something you already do, or know.

Do you need to read why you breath? Or swallow saliva?

Yes chinese are supertitious, but then again so are those who call everything occult, new age, witch craft.

How do we look at hermetics? Is that superstition? Or fact?

Well we might not need to but its very easy ,scientifically ,why and how we do.

Is this TCM the same TCM that uses tigers *****'s for virility and rhino's horn for the same????

Worth wiping out entire species is it for superstitious claptrap?

[Shadow_warrior8]

Well we might not need to but its very easy ,scientifically ,why and how we do.

Is this TCM the same TCM that uses tigers *****'s for virility and rhino's horn for the same????

Worth wiping out entire species is it for superstitious claptrap?

qigong and tcm are they the same practice? even the name is different

is taking xrays = Orthopedic work? are they identical?

To quote senior hendrik in his words he says often " we must be clear" hence we must be clear tiger, rhino is it the same as wolfberry? ginseng? what does what?

It is common sense to look into cultures with thousands of years of study, some serious study and comments
Practices that came from india, still there, practices in china, tibet, and even in japan and korea.
And in the west they have hermetics practice.

There are many books on this by doctors, scientist in english
http://www.amazon.com/Energy-Medicine-Balancing-Energies-Vitality/dp/1585426504
http://www.amazon.com/Vibrational-Medicine-Number-Handbook-Therapies/dp/1879181584

All this came from research of this so called superstitious culture and practice and explained scientitifically.

[GlennR]

qigong and tcm are they the same practice? even the name is different

Hey, im not the sopposed expert. Are you telling me they arent connected?


is taking xrays = Orthopedic work? are they identical?

Not at all, but one can happily support the other


It warrents to look into cultures with thousands of years of study, some serious study and comments
Practices that came from india, still there, practices in china, tibet, and even in japan and korea.

Then why is Asia embracing western culture and medicine? Go to Beijing hospital with a life threatening problem and i bet they attempt to fix it with western medicine


There are many books on this by doctors, scientist in english
http://www.amazon.com/Energy-Medicine-Balancing-Energies-Vitality/dp/1585426504
http://www.amazon.com/Vibrational-Medicine-Number-Handbook-Therapies/dp/1879181584

Mate, theyre trying to make money selling a book, they are not scientific journals in any shape or form


All this came from research of this so called superstitious culture and practice and explained scientitifically.


And it preys on people trying to justify eastern practices with western approval

[Shadow_warrior8]

Hey, im not the sopposed expert. Are you telling me they arent connected?

Not at all, but one can happily support the other

Then why is Asia embracing western culture and medicine? Go to Beijing hospital with a life threatening problem and i bet they attempt to fix it with western medicine

Mate, theyre trying to make money selling a book, they are not scientific journals in any shape or form

And it preys on people trying to justify eastern practices with western approval

Connection and the same thing are totally different, we are talking about qigong, you are talking about rhinos and tigers.

got to a hospital in beijing and see if they have accupuncture and qigong or any hospital in china.
Ask the chinese goverment if they share your skeptism in qigong

For that matter of connection
go to malaysia and see if qigong is taught by doctors to cancer patients, ask the doctors who pays for these qigong masters to teach them and if its the malaysian goverment or singapore if they use accupuncture for stroke patients.

I am most happy to take you up on your bet, that cancer is treated with qigong and tcm in so called western hospitals as a important part of the treatment. What do you have to wager it on?

As for journals, its funny that people ask for western science to prove it, and when the scientists and doctors do, the same people who ask for proof, mock the proof.
No further need to post links for you, if you are truely sincere, and the cup is empty, you will find what you seek, if its full, well it is what it is

I agree with you, you are no expert, did you have more to contribute in the discussion of qigong?

[Shadow_warrior8]

Here's your western cures and what it does

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7k-GlLhpp8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXg0D9jBsCM&feature=related

[GlennR]

Connection and the same thing are totally different, we are talking about qigong, you are talking about rhinos and tigers.,

TCM, from my poor western perspective, bases its theories around the belief of qi.... yes?

TCM also uses body parts of animals in the belief it can cure ailments.... yes?


got to a hospital in beijing and see if they have accupuncture and qigong or any hospital in china.
Ask the chinese goverment if they share your skeptism in qigong

So if you are dragged in having a heart attack they will prescribe acupuncture and some quigong??


For that matter of connection
go to malaysia and see if qigong is taught by doctors to cancer patients,

So it works better than chemotherapy?


ask the doctors who pays for these qigong masters to teach them and if its the malaysian goverment or singapore if they use accupuncture for stroke patients.


Im glad to hear they think it will benefit their patients


I am most happy to take you up on your bet, that cancer is treated with qigong and tcm in so called western hospitals as a important part of the treatment. What do you have to wager it on?

No problem. So you are now saying that quigong and TCM ARE connected. Before we have that bet can you conform this..... tigers and rhinos hey


As for journals, its funny that people ask for western science to prove it, and when the scientists and doctors do, the same people who ask for proof, mock the proof.
No further need to post links for you, if you are truely sincere, and the cup is empty, you will find what you seek, if its full, well it is what it is

If i thought it would make me healthier, give better physical outcomes, make me live longer and basically be a better person id jump at it.
You directing me at self help books and "your senior" is hardly going to sway me


I agree with you, you are no expert, did you have more to contribute in the discussion of qigong?


So this is one of these threads where you can "contribute" as long as that doesnt mean question what you are saying?
Cultish much me-thinks

[Vajramusti]

Well we might not need to but its very easy ,scientifically ,why and how we do.

Is this TCM the same TCM that uses tigers *****'s for virility and rhino's horn for the same????

Worth wiping out entire species is it for superstitious claptrap?
-------------------------------------------

or kill a bear for it's bile!

[SimonM]

I really like this article on the potential of qi and the iinadequacies of current scientific viewpoints to understand the true nature.
Dealing with the issue of incomplete understanding is not easy now or then.
Not long ago all was 'magic'. Science of any sort is a way to understand and accept the mysteries around us. The problem now is the rules. They seem pretty firm but may not be. The main danger is making assumptions about the things we don't understand. We see patterns where none should be.Something is a cause. The seeker accepts this with out too much judgement. The understanding of qi in the end may be uncovered by a completely unrealated study.
The one thing I try to do personally is not to become 'diseased' by the color of my own perseption. The reason qi is hard to describe but for it's effects? That is the question. Either it just doen't exist at all. Or it is a type of scientific process which is not totally in our direct experience. Both possibilities are exiting and leave an open trail of discovery and refinement.

Claiming to cite an experiment which used double-blind results is all well and good but have those results been demonstrated to be replicable in experiments conducted by unrelated organizations?

This document didn't actually cite any specific papers which makes it hard to adjudicate the claims put forward - basically we are still asked to accept the findings on faith.

[Happy Tiger]

Claiming to cite an experiment which used double-blind results is all well and good but have those results been demonstrated to be replicable in experiments conducted by unrelated organizations?

This document didn't actually cite any specific papers which makes it hard to adjudicate the claims put forward - basically we are still asked to accept the findings on faith.
Yes, well that's sorta my point. I liken qi somewhat to gravity in our understanding. Allthough gravity seems obvious, it is the most mysterious of the forces. Our explanation of it I suppose is heuristic to suffice. We see and do things with what it does but we still don't understand what it is or why it seems different to the other forces. Some of the greatest mysteries in phisics have to do with gravity. This makes me wonder, as is my suspicion with qi, that part of the answer is outside our direct experience. As cool and deep as our understanding of the effects of qi a
re, when we understand what it is, it may very well be revolutionary.
I know qi is. Am I the only one around here that is dying to know all the other W,s...on a little side bar regarding gravity. It may be the ancient Tibetans understood it better then the rest with their knowledge and manipulation of harmonics. Like the Hutcheson effect. I appreciate your efforts to keep it real. I am an artist/ technician in the motion picture industry. We use a number of modern sciences to execute our craft.We kinda have to be half Tesla half Edison in our approach to solving
problems all the while integrating with art and possibilities. I must admit, my head likes the clouds more than some, but it doesn't mean I don't admire and utilise the practical truths we have in front of us.

[SimonM]

I'm sorry but your analogy is flawed.

We can demonstrate in a replicable and falsifiable manner that the phenomenon of gravity exists and can be measured.

We cannot do that with qi. For that matter we can't even agree on a basic definition.

[Happy Tiger]

qigong and tcm are they the same practice? even the name is different

is taking xrays = Orthopedic work? are they identical?

To quote senior hendrik in his words he says often " we must be clear" hence we must be clear tiger, rhino is it the same as wolfberry? ginseng? what does what?

It is common sense to look into cultures with thousands of years of study, some serious study and comments
Practices that came from india, still there, practices in china, tibet, and even in japan and korea.
And in the west they have hermetics practice.

There are many books on this by doctors, scientist in english
http://www.amazon.com/Energy-Medicine-Balancing-Energies-Vitality/dp/1585426504
http://www.amazon.com/Vibrational-Medicine-Number-Handbook-Therapies/dp/1879181584

All this came from research of this so called superstitious culture and practice and explained scientitifically.
Sorry about the 'superstitious culture' thing Shadow Warrior. As I mentioned in an earlier post Chinese are every bit as scientific as any other culture. I think I might have mis understood Hendriks post. He seems to shift some times in this discussion between the west being too susceptible to 'new age magic' and the 'west' being to needy of scientific why of everything. I might be reading him wrong. I was raised in a chinese home and am myself some what superstitious. :)
My wife and I observed many 'superstitious' traditions at our wedding.
http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r27/moontyger_2007/VJ_111.jpg
http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r27/moontyger_2007/VJ_71.jpg
http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r27/moontyger_2007/VJ_3_21.jpg
http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r27/moontyger_2007/094.jpg
P.S. The fellow with long hair on the far left of the bridal sedan is my sifu. Sifu Wood Nan.
Not only a VT master but an expert in TCM and hei gong.

[Happy Tiger]

I'm sorry but your analogy is flawed.

We can demonstrate in a replicable and falsifiable manner that the phenomenon of gravity exists and can be measured.

We cannot do that with qi. For that matter we can't even agree on a basic definition.
It all stretches out before us...
P.S. I didn't say it was an exact anology :P :)

[Scott R. Brown]

Keep in mind that this philosophical field of study from an ancient culture that supposedly knows more about a possibly imaginary force/substance than apparently any other culture on the planet ever has, promoted the consumption of mercury pills in order to reach immortality and believed in imaginary islands off the coast of the Chinese mainland, amongst other foolish things! But we can cherry pick what we want to believe that they taught, and those things they were spot on about?

It is like the dingbats who think the Maya were so wise they could predict the end of the world in 2012, but couldn't figure out that human sacrifice is inhumane and a superstitious practice that does nothing to contribute to the answer of their prayers or appease their imaginary gods!

[SimonM]

P.S. I didn't say it was an exact anology :P :)

No, it is actually, technically, a false analogy.

[Lucas]

Keep in mind that this philosophical field of study from an ancient culture that supposedly knows more about a possibly imaginary force/substance than apparently any other culture on the planet ever has, promoted the consumption of mercury pills in order to reach immortality and believed in imaginary islands off the coast of the Chinese mainland, amongst other foolish things! But we can cherry pick what we want to believe that they taught, and those things they were spot on about?

It is like the dingbats who think the Maya were so wise they could predict the end of the world in 2012, but couldn't figure out that human sacrifice is inhumane and a superstitious practice that does nothing to contribute to the answer of their prayers or appease their imaginary gods!

how do you know the human sacrafice wasnt pivotal to predicting the end of the world?!?! :eek:

or did they just run out of room on the calendar stone? ;)

[Hendrik]

I think I might have mis understood Hendriks post. He seems to shift some times in this discussion between the west being too susceptible to 'new age magic' and the 'west' being to needy of scientific why of everything. I might be reading him wrong. .

You understand me correct. In general, my western friends seem to belong to either the new age magic or the needy of scientific why of everything. And IMHO, I found they don't really develop qigong in depth but more into their believe. It is not that pragmatic but lots of theories and philosophy which I dont think it is that useful.

Ie. for the new age group, everything is qi but they cannot evoke qi in thier Dan dien objectively . For the needy of scientific why of everything group, they live in thier own theory world like a robot.

I don't believe qi is every things either so I like pragmatic stuffs not theory of yes qi or no qi but goes no where similar to the two group.

[Xian]

Interesting thirty pages of discussion. Did you achieve any results ?


Kind regards,
Cyrill

[Happy Tiger]

You understand me correct. In general, my western friends seem to belong to either the new age magic or the needy of scientific why of everything. And IMHO, I found they don't really develop qigong in depth but more into their believe. It is not that pragmatic but lots of theories and philosophy which I dont think it is that useful.

Ie. for the new age group, everything is qi but they cannot evoke qi in thier Dan dien objectively . For the needy of scientific why of everything group, they live in thier own theory world like a robot.

I don't believe qi is every things either so I like pragmatic stuffs not theory of yes qi or no qi but goes no where similar to the two group.
So perhaps the answer lies in utilizing the best of these different human approaches to analysis since both have strengths and weaknesses.

[Happy Tiger]

No, it is actually, technically, a false analogy.
Qi does stand up to some scientific scrutiny. In living organisms, the effects of accupuncture and other qi manipulation/stimulation methods work independant of 'belief'. They work on mammals of many kinds.(so far tested) and largely produce effects predicted by the process beyond the placybo factor. I admit, compared to gravity, qi quantification is shallow. As was the theory of Newtonian Gravity theory compared to today's understanding. In addition, if it's not qi, what does contribute to the effects we are recording? Perhaps several things conspire to create the illusion of qi. So might the final explanation of gravity. Every one in these forums are well educated and dedicated to learning. It is interesting the breadth of opinion and the polarization of rational. Trying to walk the middle path(as I attempt) seems particularly hopeless sometimes and not popular with any one.:) For me I think I'm not gonna take it too seriously and just feel it. I get results from qi gong. Why? I dunno, but I can dream as well as study can't I. Must we always obey the laws of thermal dynamics?:)
As flaky as I can get, when we hit the mat, don't expect me tuh blast you with my chi ray!!!

[Hendrik]

So perhaps the answer lies in utilizing the best of these different human approaches to analysis since both have strengths and weaknesses.

Yup.

I study with many teachers to get the different view on qi. Range from the closer to the new age to the traditional.

And I choose the traditional because it support my yik kam WCK, tcm, and daily living without have to believe but actually develop it. It also align with the zen, shaolin , six healing sounds, bone marrow washing, and meditation. To bring the ancient practice live. One can monitor with biofeedback machine and get repeatable results. It is like a science, it is not everything but it is something. As in the layer four of YKT. Without that layer, many things are not possible to handle.

[Vajramusti]

439 posts on qi!!!

[Hendrik]

Qi does stand up to some scientific scrutiny. In living organisms, the effects of accupuncture and other qi manipulation/stimulation methods work independant of 'belief'. They work on mammals of many kinds.(so far tested) and largely produce effects predicted by the process beyond the placybo factor. I admit, compared to gravity, qi quantification is shallow. As was the theory of Newtonian Gravity theory compared to today's understanding. In addition, if it's not qi, what does contribute to the effects we are recording? Perhaps several things conspire to create the illusion of qi. So might the final explanation of gravity. Every one in these forums are well educated and dedicated to learning. It is interesting the breadth of opinion and the polarization of rational. Trying to walk the middle path(as I attempt) seems particularly hopeless sometimes and not popular with any one.:) For me I think I'm not gonna take it too seriously and just feel it. I get results from qi gong. Why? I dunno, but I can dream as well as study can't I. Must we always obey the laws of thermal dynamics?:)
As flaky as I can get, when we hit the mat, don't expect me tuh blast you with my chi ray!!!


Anyone can bring those who practice traditional Chinese qigong such as standing post with qualify teacher to the lab for scientific scrutiny , to see what it is as it is. That simple.

IMHO, the issue is those who is in new age is trying to make claim on what they don't have, those who is in the lab is trying to do everything to debunk qi. So, it got nothing to do with qi but all kinds of human ego fighting.

[guy b.]

You understand me correct. In general, my western friends seem to belong to either the new age magic or the needy of scientific why of everything. And IMHO, I found they don't really develop qigong in depth but more into their believe. It is not that pragmatic but lots of theories and philosophy which I dont think it is that useful.

Theory and pragmatism are two sides of the same coin. It is absurd that a self proclaimed pragmatist disregards theory.

You are simply a coward I think, too scared to say what you think qi is just in case it appears ridiculous.

From Wiki: "Pragmatism is based on the premise that the human capability to theorize is necessary for intelligent practice."

It seems that I am the pragmatist. What are you?

[guy b.]

Yup.

I study with many teachers to get the different view on qi. Range from the closer to the new age to the traditional.

And I choose the traditional because it support my yik kam WCK, tcm, and daily living without have to believe but actually develop it. It also align with the zen, shaolin , six healing sounds, bone marrow washing, and meditation. To bring the ancient practice live. One can monitor with biofeedback machine and get repeatable results. It is like a science, it is not everything but it is something. As in the layer four of YKT. Without that layer, many things are not possible to handle.

Too much of everything gives nothing.

What do you think qi is?

[GlennR]

439 posts on qi!!!

Im thinking it will fly past 500 and still no one will answer the question.

[taai gihk yahn]

Qi does stand up to some scientific scrutiny. In living organisms, the effects of accupuncture and other qi manipulation/stimulation methods work independant of 'belief'. They work on mammals of many kinds.(so far tested) and largely produce effects predicted by the process beyond the placybo factor. I admit, compared to gravity, qi quantification is shallow. As was the theory of Newtonian Gravity theory compared to today's understanding. In addition, if it's not qi, what does contribute to the effects we are recording? Perhaps several things conspire to create the illusion of qi. So might the final explanation of gravity. Every one in these forums are well educated and dedicated to learning. It is interesting the breadth of opinion and the polarization of rational. Trying to walk the middle path(as I attempt) seems particularly hopeless sometimes and not popular with any one.:) For me I think I'm not gonna take it too seriously and just feel it. I get results from qi gong. Why? I dunno, but I can dream as well as study can't I. Must we always obey the laws of thermal dynamics?:)
As flaky as I can get, when we hit the mat, don't expect me tuh blast you with my chi ray!!!

not quite;

you are equating the physiological effects of acupuncture to "qi"; this is jumping the gun; acupuncture has physiological effects, that has been established; as far as health effects "beyond" placebo, that depends what you mean - if by placebo u mean that the effect occurs beyond that which would occur by random chance, yes; but as far as placebo in the sense of the patient's belief regarding the treatment, that will necessarily impact its effectiveness, given that the mechanism of acupuncture is to a large extent mediated by the autonomic nervous system, which is why it's utility is largely based on its effect as "constitutional medicine"; meaning that acupuncture stimulates the organism's drive towards homeostasis, as opposed to combating specific disease entities; belief has a huge influence on how well these sorts of modalities work, because belief mediates autonomic function to a large extent; although, it depends also on what u r treating with acupuncture: muscle spasm or TMC pattern? these two things differ greatly, and I think belief will modulate each in different ways;

again, acupuncture clearly has an impact, altho there is a marked degree of variability in terms of its effects between practitioner skill and patient predisposition;

as to whether it 'proves" the existence of "qi", I don't think it does: if acupuncture works, and we can describe it in contemporary physiological terms, then a) it doesn't say anything about "qi" per se, and b) it in a way obviates the need for the term - suffice it to say, we can quantify / qualify the effects in contemporary terms; at most, what we can say about "qi" is that as a synthetic descriptor, it was a useful tool; that is, as a TCM practitioner 500 yrs ago, w/out the use of contemporary principles and technology, it was a way to describe the net interaction of physiological systems on a macro-observational level; as a TCM doc, when I questioned, looked, listened and smelled (I think those were the 4 pillars of diagnosis), I took into account the pt's reports, their energy level, their complaints, their tongue dx, pulse dx, breath smell, eye characteristics, bowel sounds, etc.; I then synthesized al of these signs and symptoms and derived a patter based on the unifying concept of "qi"; as such, "qi" is not a discreet separate "thing", but rather a method to synthesize all of this information and qualify it;

so that's why I think looking for "it" in the same way one looks for a Higgs boson is futile - there's nothing to find, per se - but if you look at all different aspects of body function, these are all aspects of "qi" - heat, electricity, magnetism, etc. - all are manifestation of biophysiological processes, and therefore aspects foo "qoi"

and therefore, why u get results from qigong is simple: it's a way of engaging processes in the body that also impact homeostasis: movement, breathing, etc.; qigong is "natural" movement that has been systematized - it's origin is Taoist shamanic practice, and this arose out of what people probably did naturally before they got to be too civilized: they yawned, starched, scratches, rubbed, slapped, etc. themselves; they breathed deeply or shallowy in an instinctive manner; in fact, some Taoist texts talk about qigong / Taoist practice as a "corruption"; meaning that in the absence of us moving in an instinctual manner, we have to artificially recreate the sorts of things that we did before we became too abstract in our thinking; I mean, my wife does yoga every day assiduously, and she will never do "downward dog" as well as our dumb Bernese mountain dog does it, because he doesn't even realize he's doing it;

so qigong is an attempt to recapture that "primitive" state of movement; even Chaung Tzu wrote that "the men of old breathed clear down to their heels" - that should say something right there...

also, I don't much buy the analogy of "qi" research being in the same vein as Newton or gravity, because there is a major difference: no one doubted / doubts the presence / effect of motion / gravity - Newton did not discover these things, nor did he reveal them - he came up with ways to describe and predict their function; we may not understand gravity fully, but no one is going to argue its baseline existence, or disagree on what it is when it is perceived; "qi" OTOH, because of how it's so wrapped up in subjective perspective, cannot even be agreed upon - so how are u going to even research that? again, I don't think it's a discreet thing as such - when u have freely flowing qi, it means that ur baseline physiological processes are functioning without impedance; when u practice qigong and start getting all those sensations, etc., these are ur autonomics responding to the sort of imp out that u r giving ur body (shaking, feeling of expansiveness, hands floating away from the body, etc.);

so we have to be a little more circumspect - we can't use the far or experience of "effect" from acupuncture / qigong as indicative of "qi" as something that exists as a separate force / entity - we can simply say that these practices have an effect, and we can consider them from a physiological perspective, in order to understand the various mechanisms underlying that effect, and go from there

[guy b.]

Im thinking it will fly past 500 and still no one will answer the question.

I answered what I think it is. I have no fear of my falsifiable theory being falsified because I have nothing personally invested in it, unlike most interested parties. Obviously it is beneficial to me if I rule out a theory that does not map adequately to reality

[taai gihk yahn]

Im thinking it will fly past 500 and still no one will answer the question.

that's because people r still looking for a specific "thing" instead of understanding it from the perspective of it being a qualitative synthetic descriptor...

[guy b.]

I admit, compared to gravity, qi quantification is shallow. As was the theory of Newtonian Gravity theory compared to today's understanding.

Newtonian theory was a falsifiable attempt to model gravity. It was a theory of gravity. Qi "theory" is not falsifiable and does not amount to a theory. You can't talk coherently about a physical phenomenon without having a model of what it is, otherwise you are not talking about that thing, merely about unconnected observations you made. If you postulate qi as the reason these effects are connected then you have to say what you think that means to you, otherwise it dissolves to nothing.

[guy b.]

that's because people r still looking for a specific "thing" instead of understanding it from the perspective of it being a qualitative synthetic descriptor...

You are saying that you think qi is a synthetic grouping of unconnected physical feelings that people commonly experience when they perform qigong exercises?

[Happy Tiger]

A lot to think about. Ahm goin to train my ass off for a while.

[Paddington]

that's because people r still looking for a specific "thing" instead of understanding it from the perspective of it being a qualitative synthetic descriptor...


You are saying that you think qi is a synthetic grouping of unconnected physical feelings that people commonly experience when they perform qigong exercises?


:)

Now we are getting somewhere! I believe there to be a number of measurable bodily processes involved that give rise to the 'feeling' of qi, and that they are not unconnected processes. Both process and feeling come about through physical gestures and 'right mind/mindfulness'. I think the process of learning, particularly physical skills, touches/initiates most of these processes giving rise to qi and is where people can develop and experience it.

[Vajramusti]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_Siu

R.G. H. Siu in his MIT press book "Chi" discusses different meanings of Chi. He was educated in bio chemistry. He also wrote the Tao of Science.(MIT press)
His discussions do not displace western paradigms but suggests how understanding the chi paradigm can enrich understanding of nature- particularly the human connection to nature.
Chi is a Chinese approach whereas prana is an Indian approach. The Greek Stoics called it pneuma.

The Church rejected pneuma as a pagan and evil concept leading to witchcraft. Kant's bifurcation further separated pneumena from phenomena- and "science" since then primarily deals with the latter.

BTW if you get good wing chun instruction you dont have to worry about chi imo.. doing the forms well can be your chi gung-- no importation of other hei gung is necessary.

Chi.prana. pneuma can be said to be the life force- a non materialist approach to energy in living things.

[xinyidizi]

I answered what I think it is. I have no fear of my falsifiable theory being falsified because I have nothing personally invested in it, unlike most interested parties. Obviously it is beneficial to me if I rule out a theory that does not map adequately to reality

What is reality? The last time I checked mainstream science is baffled by what the universe is made of. They have theorized things like dark matter and the standard model to describe things that should be there but can not be detected. If the scientists don't know what most of the mass in the universe is made of then how can you scientifically rule out anything? What if what the advanced meditation practitioners from different cultures have all observed the same way as aura, qi, prana etc is one of those things?
And things like MRI machines are like childish toys comparing to what scientists have built in places like cern and if they can't properly detect most of the things that should be here I don't know how people can do it by showing us mri and brain scans.

[Paddington]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_Siu

R.G. H. Siu in his MIT press book "Chi" discusses different meanings of Chi. He was educated in bio chemistry. He also wrote the Tao of Science.(MIT press)
His discussions do not displace western paradigms but suggests how understanding the chi paradigm can enrich understanding of nature- particularly the human connection to nature.
Chi is a Chinese approach whereas prana is an Indian approach. The Greek Stoics called it pneuma.

The Church rejected pneuma as a pagan and evil concept leading to witchcraft. Kant's bifurcation further separated pneumena from phenomena- and "science" since then primarily deals with the latter.

BTW if you get good wing chun instruction you dont have to worry about chi imo.. doing the forms well can be your chi gung-- no importation of other hei gung is necessary.

Chi.rana. pneuma can be said to be the life force- a non materialist approach to energy in living things.

I never thought I would see a nod to Kant's epistemological and ontological musings posted on a wing chun forum! And he, Kant, expects us to take it all on faith! ;) More seriously, thanks for the reference joy, I will look it up.

I agree about your comment that good instruction and good form work is sufficient. For my part the people I train with often talk about qi as 'energy' that can be felt when training. I guess my concerns regarding what is qi, are more phenomenological and human biological than others' want for a totalizing grand narrative.

[Robinhood]

Qi is a life force, when your dead, your Qi is gone.

[SimonM]

not quite;

you are equating the physiological effects of acupuncture to "qi"; this is jumping the gun; acupuncture has physiological effects, that has been established; as far as health effects "beyond" placebo, that depends what you mean - if by placebo u mean that the effect occurs beyond that which would occur by random chance, yes; but as far as placebo in the sense of the patient's belief regarding the treatment, that will necessarily impact its effectiveness, given that the mechanism of acupuncture is to a large extent mediated by the autonomic nervous system, which is why it's utility is largely based on its effect as "constitutional medicine"; meaning that acupuncture stimulates the organism's drive towards homeostasis, as opposed to combating specific disease entities; belief has a huge influence on how well these sorts of modalities work, because belief mediates autonomic function to a large extent; although, it depends also on what u r treating with acupuncture: muscle spasm or TMC pattern? these two things differ greatly, and I think belief will modulate each in different ways;

again, acupuncture clearly has an impact, altho there is a marked degree of variability in terms of its effects between practitioner skill and patient predisposition;

as to whether it 'proves" the existence of "qi", I don't think it does: if acupuncture works, and we can describe it in contemporary physiological terms, then a) it doesn't say anything about "qi" per se, and b) it in a way obviates the need for the term - suffice it to say, we can quantify / qualify the effects in contemporary terms; at most, what we can say about "qi" is that as a synthetic descriptor, it was a useful tool; that is, as a TCM practitioner 500 yrs ago, w/out the use of contemporary principles and technology, it was a way to describe the net interaction of physiological systems on a macro-observational level; as a TCM doc, when I questioned, looked, listened and smelled (I think those were the 4 pillars of diagnosis), I took into account the pt's reports, their energy level, their complaints, their tongue dx, pulse dx, breath smell, eye characteristics, bowel sounds, etc.; I then synthesized al of these signs and symptoms and derived a patter based on the unifying concept of "qi"; as such, "qi" is not a discreet separate "thing", but rather a method to synthesize all of this information and qualify it;

so that's why I think looking for "it" in the same way one looks for a Higgs boson is futile - there's nothing to find, per se - but if you look at all different aspects of body function, these are all aspects of "qi" - heat, electricity, magnetism, etc. - all are manifestation of biophysiological processes, and therefore aspects foo "qoi"

and therefore, why u get results from qigong is simple: it's a way of engaging processes in the body that also impact homeostasis: movement, breathing, etc.; qigong is "natural" movement that has been systematized - it's origin is Taoist shamanic practice, and this arose out of what people probably did naturally before they got to be too civilized: they yawned, starched, scratches, rubbed, slapped, etc. themselves; they breathed deeply or shallowy in an instinctive manner; in fact, some Taoist texts talk about qigong / Taoist practice as a "corruption"; meaning that in the absence of us moving in an instinctual manner, we have to artificially recreate the sorts of things that we did before we became too abstract in our thinking; I mean, my wife does yoga every day assiduously, and she will never do "downward dog" as well as our dumb Bernese mountain dog does it, because he doesn't even realize he's doing it;

so qigong is an attempt to recapture that "primitive" state of movement; even Chaung Tzu wrote that "the men of old breathed clear down to their heels" - that should say something right there...

also, I don't much buy the analogy of "qi" research being in the same vein as Newton or gravity, because there is a major difference: no one doubted / doubts the presence / effect of motion / gravity - Newton did not discover these things, nor did he reveal them - he came up with ways to describe and predict their function; we may not understand gravity fully, but no one is going to argue its baseline existence, or disagree on what it is when it is perceived; "qi" OTOH, because of how it's so wrapped up in subjective perspective, cannot even be agreed upon - so how are u going to even research that? again, I don't think it's a discreet thing as such - when u have freely flowing qi, it means that ur baseline physiological processes are functioning without impedance; when u practice qigong and start getting all those sensations, etc., these are ur autonomics responding to the sort of imp out that u r giving ur body (shaking, feeling of expansiveness, hands floating away from the body, etc.);

so we have to be a little more circumspect - we can't use the far or experience of "effect" from acupuncture / qigong as indicative of "qi" as something that exists as a separate force / entity - we can simply say that these practices have an effect, and we can consider them from a physiological perspective, in order to understand the various mechanisms underlying that effect, and go from there

Um... yeah... what he said. :D

[Happy Tiger]

Um... yeah... what he said. :D
That about wraps this one up. I would have gotten away with it too, if wern't for those meddling kids :)
What do you feel accounts for the apparant distance projection effects of qi?

[SimonM]

I think that there is no compelling evidence that such effects actually exist.

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_Siu

R.G. H. Siu in his MIT press book "Chi" discusses different meanings of Chi. He was educated in bio chemistry. He also wrote the Tao of Science.(MIT press)
His discussions do not displace western paradigms but suggests how understanding the chi paradigm can enrich understanding of nature- particularly the human connection to nature.
Chi is a Chinese approach whereas prana is an Indian approach. The Greek Stoics called it pneuma.

The Church rejected pneuma as a pagan and evil concept leading to witchcraft. Kant's bifurcation further separated pneumena from phenomena- and "science" since then primarily deals with the latter.

BTW if you get good wing chun instruction you dont have to worry about chi imo.. doing the forms well can be your chi gung-- no importation of other hei gung is necessary.

Chi.prana. pneuma can be said to be the life force- a non materialist approach to energy in living things.

Not sure where you got the idea that the church rejected "pnuema" ( which also means breathe). The Spirit (pneuma ie: breath of God, ie: the Holy spirit) is widely accepted in Christianity as to what makes a believer believe.
One can't be a Christian without believing in Christ as Saviour and one can only believe that if they are "annointed" with the Holy Spirit.
What the church rejected is "spiritualism".

[Vajramusti]

Not sure where you got the idea that the church rejected "pnuema" ( which also means breathe). The Spirit (pneuma ie: breath of God, ie: the Holy spirit) is widely accepted in Christianity as to what makes a believer believe.
One can't be a Christian without believing in Christ as Saviour and one can only believe that if they are "annointed" with the Holy Spirit.
What the church rejected is "spiritualism".
---------------------------------------------
Sanjuro- I do not wish to go too far in a wing chun section of a kung fu forum. The church Christianized pneuma inro the Holy Spirit- cutting out the secular science implications.
They opted for St. Thomas Aquinas' Aristotelian classificatory concept of nature- which became
the main dogma.There pneuma becomes spirit- from God on high- moving away from the pneuma
which the Greek stoics (Chrysippus inter alia)regarded as energy in natural entities-the internal fire fed by the air around.
You might check- Sambursky's The Physics of the Stoics.
You can also read Bertrand Russell on how the domination of the Aristotelian Thomas slowed the growth of science.

Even in sex- in Augustine and Thomas- sex is for creating babies not for enjoyment and feeling.
The devil lurks around the corner.
In Kant you never know an entity completely because the pneuma is beyond the "constructions"
of science and accept as true- on faith.

It's a long story from Chrysippus to Schrodinger and Bose.
Enough noise on this list so I pass.

joy chaudhuri

PS You flow and feel in good kung fu - don't you? (NOT the hokey empty force projection stuff)

[Scott R. Brown]

You flow and feel in good kung fu - don't you?

As all people do when they exercise!

[sanjuro_ronin]

---------------------------------------------
Sanjuro- I do not wish to go too far in a wing chun section of a kung fu forum. The church Christianized pneuma inro the Holy Spirit- cutting out the secular science implications.
They opted for St. Thomas Aquinas' Aristotelian classificatory concept of nature- which became
the main dogma.There pneuma becomes spirit- from God on high- moving away from the pneuma
which the Greek stoics (Chrysippus inter alia)regarded as energy in natural entities-the internal fire fed by the air around.
You might check- Sambursky's The Physics of the Stoics.
You can also read Bertrand Russell on how the domination of the Aristotelian Thomas slowed the growth of science.

Even in sex- in Augustine and Thomas- sex is for creating babies not for enjoyment and feeling.
The devil lurks around the corner.
In Kant you never know an entity completely because the pneuma is beyond the "constructions"
of science and accept as true- on faith.

It's a long story from Chrysippus to Schrodinger and Bose.
Enough noise on this list so I pass.

joy chaudhuri

PS You flow and feel in good kung fu - don't you? (NOT the hokey empty force projection stuff)

Have read and disagree with their conclusions, even before I was a Christian.
But like you said, nothing to do with the WC forum :)
And yes, I feel the "force" (;)) when my kung fu hits that "groove".

[taai gihk yahn]

The following view is very logical and reasonable for those who have not develop and grow qi in their own body. In fact the following describes the view of those doesn't have the qi development experience. I really doubt this type or norm can have any healing, martial art , and health result.

lol - u hav no idea what I had done an the results I've had - like others here, it is just inconceivable to you that someone can hav developed and grown qi according to classical practice, had experienced healing / health and martial effect and then had these views;

btw Hendrick, speaking of "qi" in martial art - when was the last time you applied you "qi development" against a resisting opponent in a martial context? what was that? did you say "never"? yeah, that's pretty much what I thought you said

to coin a phrase, "You know nothing, Jon Snow..."

[Brule]

Sometimes, when i'm off my meds, i venture into the wing chun forum to see what's up. Expecting to find discussions on bong sau this, tan sau that, wing chun - vs- ving tsun etc.... today i jump in and see that the infamous qi discussion has crept up in here, this discussion is like a virus, spreading to all parts of the forum. Good bye.....

[Hendrik]

lol - u hav no idea what I had done an the results I've had - like others here, it is just inconceivable to you that someone can hav developed and grown qi according to classical practice, had experienced healing / health and martial effect and then had these views;

btw Hendrick, speaking of "qi" in martial art - when was the last time you applied you "qi development" against a resisting opponent in a martial context? what was that? did you say "never"? yeah, that's pretty much what I thought you said

to coin a phrase, "You know nothing, Jon Snow..."



Hahaha, is it true?

Share with us who is you sifu in qi development.

As for qi against resistance opponent, you are just asking an ignorance question. Hahaha

[Hendrik]

The following view is very logical and reasonable for those who have not develop and grow qi in their own body. In fact the following describes the view of those doesn't have the qi development experience. I really doubt this type or norm can have any healing, martial art , and health result.




not quite;

you are equating the physiological effects of acupuncture to "qi"; this is jumping the gun; acupuncture has physiological effects, that has been established; as far as health effects "beyond" placebo, that depends what you mean - if by placebo u mean that the effect occurs beyond that which would occur by random chance, yes; but as far as placebo in the sense of the patient's belief regarding the treatment, that will necessarily impact its effectiveness, given that the mechanism of acupuncture is to a large extent mediated by the autonomic nervous system, which is why it's utility is largely based on its effect as "constitutional medicine"; meaning that acupuncture stimulates the organism's drive towards homeostasis, as opposed to combating specific disease entities; belief has a huge influence on how well these sorts of modalities work, because belief mediates autonomic function to a large extent; although, it depends also on what u r treating with acupuncture: muscle spasm or TMC pattern? these two things differ greatly, and I think belief will modulate each in different ways;

again, acupuncture clearly has an impact, altho there is a marked degree of variability in terms of its effects between practitioner skill and patient predisposition;

as to whether it 'proves" the existence of "qi", I don't think it does: if acupuncture works, and we can describe it in contemporary physiological terms, then a) it doesn't say anything about "qi" per se, and b) it in a way obviates the need for the term - suffice it to say, we can quantify / qualify the effects in contemporary terms; at most, what we can say about "qi" is that as a synthetic descriptor, it was a useful tool; that is, as a TCM practitioner 500 yrs ago, w/out the use of contemporary principles and technology, it was a way to describe the net interaction of physiological systems on a macro-observational level; as a TCM doc, when I questioned, looked, listened and smelled (I think those were the 4 pillars of diagnosis), I took into account the pt's reports, their energy level, their complaints, their tongue dx, pulse dx, breath smell, eye characteristics, bowel sounds, etc.; I then synthesized al of these signs and symptoms and derived a patter based on the unifying concept of "qi"; as such, "qi" is not a discreet separate "thing", but rather a method to synthesize all of this information and qualify it;

so that's why I think looking for "it" in the same way one looks for a Higgs boson is futile - there's nothing to find, per se - but if you look at all different aspects of body function, these are all aspects of "qi" - heat, electricity, magnetism, etc. - all are manifestation of biophysiological processes, and therefore aspects foo "qoi"

and therefore, why u get results from qigong is simple: it's a way of engaging processes in the body that also impact homeostasis: movement, breathing, etc.; qigong is "natural" movement that has been systematized - it's origin is Taoist shamanic practice, and this arose out of what people probably did naturally before they got to be too civilized: they yawned, starched, scratches, rubbed, slapped, etc. themselves; they breathed deeply or shallowy in an instinctive manner; in fact, some Taoist texts talk about qigong / Taoist practice as a "corruption"; meaning that in the absence of us moving in an instinctual manner, we have to artificially recreate the sorts of things that we did before we became too abstract in our thinking; I mean, my wife does yoga every day assiduously, and she will never do "downward dog" as well as our dumb Bernese mountain dog does it, because he doesn't even realize he's doing it;

so qigong is an attempt to recapture that "primitive" state of movement; even Chaung Tzu wrote that "the men of old breathed clear down to their heels" - that should say something right there...

also, I don't much buy the analogy of "qi" research being in the same vein as Newton or gravity, because there is a major difference: no one doubted / doubts the presence / effect of motion / gravity - Newton did not discover these things, nor did he reveal them - he came up with ways to describe and predict their function; we may not understand gravity fully, but no one is going to argue its baseline existence, or disagree on what it is when it is perceived; "qi" OTOH, because of how it's so wrapped up in subjective perspective, cannot even be agreed upon - so how are u going to even research that? again, I don't think it's a discreet thing as such - when u have freely flowing qi, it means that ur baseline physiological processes are functioning without impedance; when u practice qigong and start getting all those sensations, etc., these are ur autonomics responding to the sort of imp out that u r giving ur body (shaking, feeling of expansiveness, hands floating away from the body, etc.);

so we have to be a little more circumspect - we can't use the far or experience of "effect" from acupuncture / qigong as indicative of "qi" as something that exists as a separate force / entity - we can simply say that these practices have an effect, and we can consider them from a physiological perspective, in order to understand the various mechanisms underlying that effect, and go from there

[taai gihk yahn]

Hahaha, is it true?
does it matter? I know what I have experienced, and who has verified it for me (see below)


Share with us who is you sifu in qi development.
ok, since you asked...
Sifu Hon Sat Chuen
http://www.sathon.net/

Ven. Shou Yu (首愚法師)
Ven. Min Kuang (明光法師)
Ven. Ji Ru (繼如法師)
http://www.baus.org/

happy? not sure how that helps...
(and I'm sure now you will find ample reason to show how none of the above people "has" the true methods, lol; that, or how I have completely misunderstood their teachings, of course)


As for qi against resistance opponent, you are just asking an ignorance question. Hahaha
really? you wrote this:

I really doubt this type or norm can have any healing, martial art , and health result.
so since you seem to feel you have attained "qi development" in martial art, and since last I heard the way to test one's ability in a martial art was to apply it against an opponent who is intent on testing their level against your, then theoretically you should had been doing this; but I don't think you have...

[SimonM]

Now now taai gikh yahn, you forgot rule 1 of any thread involving qi.

You can't talk to Hendrik like a sane person.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Arguing about Qi ?
LMAO !!!
You guys can't even agree on a definition of QI and you wanna argue ti?

http://www.graphics44.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Insanity-quote..jpg

[taai gihk yahn]

Now now taai gikh yahn, you forgot rule 1 of any thread involving qi.

You can't talk to Hendrik like a sane person.

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/250x250/20832902.jpg

[SimonM]

Arguing about Qi ?
LMAO !!!
You guys can't even agree on a definition of QI and you wanna argue ti?

http://www.graphics44.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Insanity-quote..jpg

You assume any of us EXPECT a different result.

Now me, for instance, I'm just killing time at work poking at one of my favourite bits of superstition. :p

[sanjuro_ronin]

https://encrypted-tbn1.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTlFr4_kZnNs3Kv2DSi1X6Bcw-GsmR-n9OvlV_ePlhZ1oAEhgSF

[taai gihk yahn]

Arguing about Qi ?
LMAO !!!
You guys can't even agree on a definition of QI and you wanna argue ti?

http://www.graphics44.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Insanity-quote..jpg

Leave me alone and get me the Doritos...

http://www.filmsinreview.com/archives/images/2008/03/Brando.jpg

[sanjuro_ronin]

https://encrypted-tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTXfnPt_t6NwBAyARVQuMNpcQrctRhRc LXymTmTqBshMkaL_wWb-g

[taai gihk yahn]

Hahaha, is it true?

Share with us who is you sifu in qi development.

As for qi against resistance opponent, you are just asking an ignorance question. Hahaha

ignorance indeed...someone needs to pay attention to their hot cakes... ;)


When Te Shan arrived at Kuei Shan, he carried his bundle with him into the teaching hall, where he crossed from east to west and from west to east. He looked around and said, “There's nothing, no one.” Then he went out.
Hsueh Tou added the comment, “Completely exposed.”
But when Te Shan got to the monastery gate, he said, “Still I shouldn't be so coarse.” So he reentered [the hall] with full ceremony to meet [Kuei Shan]. As Kuei Shan sat there, Te Shan held up his sitting mat and said, “Teacher!” Kuei Shan reached for his whisk, whereupon Te Shan shouted, shook out his sleeves, and left.
Hsueh Tou added the comment, “Completely exposed.”
Te Shan turned his back on the teaching hall, put on his straw sandals, and departed.
That evening Kuei Shan asked the head monk, “Where is that newcomer who just came?”
The head monk answered, “At that time he turned his back on the teaching hall, put on his straw sandals, and departed.”
Kuei Shan said, “Hereafter that lad will go to the summit of a solitary peak, build himself a grass hut, and go on scolding the Buddhas and reviling the Patriarchs.”
Hsueh Tou added the comment, “He adds frost to snow.”

[Hendrik]

1. does it matter? I know what I have experienced, and who has verified it for me (see below)-----------


Sure. It matter. It is similar to making claim as an engineer degree one needs to show which engineering school is from.





2. ok, since you asked...
Sifu Hon Sat Chuen
http://www.sathon.net/

Ven. Shou Yu (首愚法師)
Ven. Min Kuang (明光法師)
Ven. Ji Ru (繼如法師)
http://www.baus.org/

happy? not sure how that helps...
(and I'm sure now you will find ample reason to show how none of the above people "has" the true methods, lol; that, or how I have completely misunderstood their teachings, of course) ---------------


All these above are religious practice. As many Chinese does.

None of these people is directly link to an authentic qigong practitioners be it in tcm or internal martial art.


What you have expose to are Similar to this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsQ4pyHmVAE






3. really? you wrote this:

so since you seem to feel you have attained "qi development" in martial art, and since last I heard the way to test one's ability in a martial art was to apply it against an opponent who is intent on testing their level against your, then theoretically you should had been doing this; but I don't think you have...-----------------


Hahaha, your information is all you heard.

[Hendrik]

ignorance indeed...someone needs to pay attention to their hot cakes... ;)


When Te Shan arrived at Kuei Shan, he carried his bundle with him into the teaching hall, where he crossed from east to west and from west to east. He looked around and said, “There's nothing, no one.” Then he went out.
Hsueh Tou added the comment, “Completely exposed.”
But when Te Shan got to the monastery gate, he said, “Still I shouldn't be so coarse.” So he reentered [the hall] with full ceremony to meet [Kuei Shan]. As Kuei Shan sat there, Te Shan held up his sitting mat and said, “Teacher!” Kuei Shan reached for his whisk, whereupon Te Shan shouted, shook out his sleeves, and left.
Hsueh Tou added the comment, “Completely exposed.”
Te Shan turned his back on the teaching hall, put on his straw sandals, and departed.
That evening Kuei Shan asked the head monk, “Where is that newcomer who just came?”
The head monk answered, “At that time he turned his back on the teaching hall, put on his straw sandals, and departed.”
Kuei Shan said, “Hereafter that lad will go to the summit of a solitary peak, build himself a grass hut, and go on scolding the Buddhas and reviling the Patriarchs.”
Hsueh Tou added the comment, “He adds frost to snow.”


You can qoute all the Buddhism koan you like. However, the got nothing to do with authentic qi development isn't it?

[taai gihk yahn]

All these above are religious practice. None of these people is directly link to an authentic qigong practitioners be it in tcm or internal martial art.
really?!? egads, your ignorance is astounding...


You can qoute all the Buddhism koan you like. However, the got nothing to do with authentic qi development isn't it?
correct; but it has everything to do with what you have both assumed and ignored; too bad you don't know and never will, hahahahahaha...

of course, now you will tell me how wonderful it all is and how you completely accept my answer (hint: adding frost to snow here...)

[Xian]

Tantric schools of Buddhism are more detailed in this with their techniques. The Chan school of buddhism cultivates also Qi but they dont do it on intent. They sit in metitation and cultivate their heart so their energy rises. At least at some monks who really do that you can feel that.
For most schools of Buddhisms it is simply not needed to talk about Qi or Energy as most of them do not cultivate the Body (Vajra Body).



Kind regards,
Xian

[Happy Tiger]

https://encrypted-tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTXfnPt_t6NwBAyARVQuMNpcQrctRhRc LXymTmTqBshMkaL_wWb-g
Well said....

[sanjuro_ronin]

A least we have vivid proof in this thread about all that is wrong in TCMA !

LMAO !

[Robinhood]

Everyone has chi, but you need to build it up more for MA, then learn how to apply it.

When they say build it up, it usually means reservoir , but whatever it means, it could mean capacity for more flow, by opening connections all over the body, which creates more even unobstructed flow of chi, or a central reservoir of chi, like hydraulic tanks. Whatever happens is not important.

Different methods will build up more than other methods, if you don't build enough up to begin with, you cannot try to learn how to apply it, and learning how to apply it is a long task by itself.


I know a lot of people who have built up chi, but cannot use it in MA, but can use it for other things, like healing or self health, etc.



Cheers

[Hendrik]

Tantric schools of Buddhism are more detailed in this with their techniques. The Chan school of buddhism cultivates also Qi but they dont do it on intent. They sit in metitation and cultivate their heart so their energy rises. At least at some monks who really do that you can feel that.
For most schools of Buddhisms it is simply not needed to talk about Qi or Energy as most of them do not cultivate the Body (Vajra Body).



Kind regards,
Xian



the practice in Tantric schools of Buddhism are diffferent with the Chinese Qi system.
So, they cannot be taken as the reference of the Chinese Qigong system.


other school of Buddhism, are all based on Vipasana and Samatha buddhist meditation. So, they also cannot be taken as the referece of the Chinese Qigong system.

[Hendrik]

really?!? egads, your ignorance is astounding... --------


it is me ignorance or you are blind but trying to tell the world you see everything better?







correct; but it has everything to do with what you have both assumed and ignored; too bad you don't know and never will, hahahahahaha...

of course, now you will tell me how wonderful it all is and how you completely accept my answer (hint: adding frost to snow here...)------------------


you love to play with words cleverly on things which you have no idea, to make believe you are an expert.

[Hendrik]

Everyone has chi, but you need to build it up more for MA, then learn how to apply it.

When they say build it up, it usually means reservoir , but whatever it means, it could mean capacity for more flow, by opening connections all over the body, which creates more even unobstructed flow of chi, or a central reservoir of chi, like hydraulic tanks. Whatever happens is not important.

Different methods will build up more than other methods, if you don't build enough up to begin with, you cannot try to learn how to apply it, and learning how to apply it is a long task by itself.


I know a lot of people who have built up chi, but cannot use it in MA, but can use it for other things, like healing or self health, etc.



Cheers



there are specific things one can asked to check if one really has gone through the qi development process or even if one's sifu has coach one.

when those basic specific things are not seen and the claimed experts not even aware of it. one knows, it is all made up based on their philosophical speculation.

[Happy Tiger]

I think I'm gonna blow my groceries

[Brule]

I'm waiting to see this.....


http://www.dblegends.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/gokukame.jpg

[Robinhood]

there are specific things one can asked to check if one really has gone through the qi development process or even if one's sifu has coach one.

when those basic specific things are not seen and the claimed experts not even aware of it. one knows, it is all made up based on their philosophical speculation.

Yes, I agree.

[Happy Tiger]

Yes, I agree.
elaborate,please

[guy b.]

there are specific things one can asked to check if one really has gone through the qi development process or even if one's sifu has coach one.

when those basic specific things are not seen and the claimed experts not even aware of it. one knows, it is all made up based on their philosophical speculation.

Lol you still haven't said what you think it is. How pragmatic of you.

[Happy Tiger]

Yes, I agree.
elaborate, please.
Hendrik...this would be a good time to say what you really...really...deep in your heart..think qi really is. Not what is written. Not what is assumed...but your true feeling. I'd really like to know. At least I threw my idea out there.What do you think? If you believe the status quo, please itierate.

[guy b.]

elaborate, please.
Hendrik...this would be a good time to say what you really...really...deep in your heart..think qi really is. Not what is written. Not what is assumed...but your true feeling. I'd really like to know. At least I threw my idea out there.What do you think? If you believe the status quo, please itierate.

We have all thrown our ideas out there expressed in simple terms, apart from Hendrik. Why might this be?

[Hendrik]

elaborate, please.
Hendrik...this would be a good time to say what you really...really...deep in your heart..think qi really is. Not what is written. Not what is assumed...but your true feeling. I'd really like to know. At least I threw my idea out there.What do you think? If you believe the status quo, please itierate.

I have shared my view in the begining of this thread.

[guy b.]

Qi cultivation allso directly related to fighting when the qi medirians handling becomes a part of power generation handling and momentum handling.

Visualization lead the qi medirians flow aids the Physical body motion and power generation.

I thought qi wasn't applicable to fighting?

[Robinhood]

It is something that cannot be explained by our science, it is a type of energy controlled from the mind, manifested through the body and can be projected outside of the body.

IMHO

[Happy Tiger]

maybe...pointless

[Hendrik]

Qi is a type of energy in the body which can be grow, store, and use.

[Happy Tiger]

I have shared my view in the begining of this thread.
give me a break, Hendrik. I've been reading your words since before many. You only point your view as before you. You don't own anything. You are an echo only.

[guy b.]

I have shared my view in the begining of this thread.

You mean this?


it is just a phenomenon of energy flow which will surface in human body when the body is loose, the mind is quiet down to have only singer thought, and breathing naturally deepen. what is the big deal? with all these philosophy, thinking, mid set, science, research....believe... spiritual..... all and goes no where.

If so then what kind of energy is it? Can we measure it?