What is qi?

[Happy Tiger]

How would one use Qi to get out of this?
http://www.iviewtube.com/uploads/thumbs/d53srQTksYWWhsoYEDxY.jpg
I would definitely drop some yuan qi, here...:)

[xinyidizi]

What does block qi? Faciea??. So are we saying that density of faciea( ie: the belief that big muscles block\restrict qi visa the viceri ?)I must admit, my belief is ,it's the mind that blocks the qi, not vicera,

Mind is just one of the factors. As Scott R. Brown said illness, injury and mental/emotional imbalance can all cause a blockage. But even if we just take mental/emotional imbalance as the reason, the result of a blockage is physical. Even if we improve the mental status there is no guarantee that the blockage will fully recover and sometimes it needs to be unblocked manually by certain techniques like qigong, acupuncture, massage and herbs. Our body's natural recovery and balancing system has its own limitations and sometimes it needs some help.

I don't agree with Scott R. Brown that manipulation is against nature. Everything about our lives is about manipulation. If we do nothing, we would be as good as dead. So whether it's training your brain, your muscles or your qi flow you need to do something in order to grow. What is against nature is the imbalance between yin and yang or in this case over-manipulation. So as long as the training is done in moderation according to one's physique it will be safe and helpful for improving our natural abilities.

[Happy Tiger]

Mind is just one of the factors. As Scott R. Brown said illness, injury and mental/emotional imbalance can all cause a blockage. But even if we just take mental/emotional imbalance as the reason, the result of a blockage is physical. Even if we improve the mental status there is no guarantee that the blockage will fully recover and sometimes it needs to be unblocked manually by certain techniques like qigong, acupuncture, massage and herbs. Our body's natural recovery and balancing system has its own limitations and sometimes it needs some help.

I don't agree with Scott R. Brown that manipulation is against nature. Everything about our lives is about manipulation. If we do nothing, we would be as good as dead. So whether it's training your brain, your muscles or your qi flow you need to do something in order to grow. What is against nature is the imbalance between yin and yang or in this case over-manipulation. So as long as the training is done in moderation according to one's physique it will be safe and helpful for improving our natural abilities.
You are right. And many religions warn in their own ways the perils of self will. This brings in,amongst other things, the issue of ethics\morals. A huge dynamic in the manifestation of will\ intention.

[Happy Tiger]

[QUOTE=Happy Tiger;1179010]You are right. And many religions warn in their own ways the perils of self will. This brings in,amongst other things, the issue of ethics\morals. A huge dynamic in the manifestation of will\ intention.[/QUOTE
Which is why, understandably, qigong training warns constantly about attachment to emotions of any kind in practice. Funny enough, this can cause problems of it's own in the interaction ' in the valley' as it were. Very deep subject we are swimming in :)

[Robinhood]

You know who came up with the idea that big muscles block qi?
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Some scrawny guy with no muscles.hg

:D

Why empty space?

I think big muscles do block chi, it is like a balloon animal, chi is segmented and does not flow between muscles , but more because of muscle balance of tone is uneven and pooled so to speak, so energy is confined to each muscle and does not flow beyond structure.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Why empty space?

I think big muscles do block chi, it is like a balloon animal, chi is segmented and does not flow between muscles , but more because of muscle balance of tone is uneven and pooled so to speak, so energy is confined to each muscle and does not flow beyond structure.

You have proof of this of course?
Tell me something, if you were moving a 300lbs piano or fridge and it fell on you, who would you rather have there to help lift it up, the big muscled power lifter that lifts 300lbs to warm up or the small muscled IMA ?

[Robinhood]

You have proof of this of course?
Tell me something, if you were moving a 300lbs piano or fridge and it fell on you, who would you rather have there to help lift it up, the big muscled power lifter that lifts 300lbs to warm up or the small muscled IMA ?


There you go again, confusing chi flow with individual muscle strength.

Read some past threads, and see if anyone said that, and keep the pictures coming.

Nice touch.

[YouKnowWho]

There you go again, confusing chi flow with individual muscle strength.

Read some past threads, and see if anyone said that, and keep the pictures coming.

Nice touch.

What's the usage of your Chi flow if you can't even get a job in any construction site?

[taai gihk yahn]

Well I can tell what you have done by the things you say, if you had transformed you would not talk the way you do. Transforming has nothing to do with what someone is thinking . Transforming is a process of removing blockages in the body, which lets chi flow unobstructed , and can be see by others that are aware of chi flow.

I can see the progress in people that are transforming and tell them where their chi is still blocked, nothing to do with what they think, it is what is happening in their body.

Most everybody except children have many blockages and bad chi flow, without the transforming of removing blockages , chi will not flow naturally.

If you had natural chi flow you would know these things, all your theories and talk will not remove blockages in your body, you need to put in the time of step 1.

You tell me you know, but you don't seem to know about what happens to the body in step one, that just tells me you have not done it.

Sorry, but thinking it is all in the mind is just religion.

You say a lot of things that are right, but can be learned by reading, some things need to be learned by doing.
in the 17+ years of practicing as a PT, I have met a lot of people who make these claims; inevitably, they think that they r being objective, when in fact they r simply delusional; and having been taught how to do this sort of thing and even using it for a while (e.g. - the craniosacral / visceral manipulation people do a lot of this sort of thing; I've also been taught this through a qigong pathway), I have been on both sides of the fence; it is a highly self-indulgent state of being to think that u can just look at someone and see what is "blocked" - again, having done it for a period of time, i understand what is going on, and in fact u can get positive results with people using this sort of approach - however, there is a limit to this sort of "intuitive" approach, and in fact it's largely predicated on reinforcement of both ur fantasy as an authority figure and the person's acceptance thereof (that is, a lot of people like to be told what's wrong with them by someone else who they set up as a "guru" with special powers - it makes them feel like they are part of something extraordinary);

fact is, these claims are very easy to debunk: I've even had the chance to demonstrate how to do this - it's very straight forward to show how where you might think someone is blocked is influenced by various factors that have nothing to do with ur supposed "qi reading" ability; there r postural factors that will draw people to what they think r "blocks", there r also entrainment factors on the part of the person being "read"; the problem is that it seems objective, but in fact it's so far off the mark it's not even funny;

I don't expect u to understand any of what I am saying, I've found it generally impossible to talk sense into people of ur ilk; it's more for the other reasonable types reading this thread or for someone who might b inclined to give these ridiculous claims credence;



I think big muscles do block chi, it is like a balloon animal, chi is segmented and does not flow between muscles , but more because of muscle balance of tone is uneven and pooled so to speak, so energy is confined to each muscle and does not flow beyond structure.
this is just sheer lunacy; I've worked with muscles my whole career, and the idea of "big" muscles blocking qi makes no sense whatsoever; if u want to talk about muscle imbalances, such as typically is the case with flexors being facilitated and extensors being inhibited (a la Vladimir Janda, MD or Shirley Sahrman, PT), that's fine - but this sort of pathological situation can be articulated much more effectively on its own terms, without using a "qi" model;

[Happy Tiger]

What's the usage of your Chi flow if you can't even get a job in any construction site?
This part of the thread brings me to one of my biggest issues. Can internal and external ever be truely balanced in the human? Are we intrinsically/fundamentally made/ created whatever unbalanced in Ying yang? Why can we be only one or the other? Either muscularly powerful or internally fortified? This does not seem to me to be an expression of balance at all.
If this is true, perhaps ying yang itself is an illusion manifest by our prejudice of perception.
After all many of our ideas of yin yang such as female= small soft weaker are completely opposite in nature. Sometimes yin and yang trade places so quickly as to be almost meaningless.

[SimonM]

Why empty space?

I think big muscles do block chi, it is like a balloon animal, chi is segmented and does not flow between muscles , but more because of muscle balance of tone is uneven and pooled so to speak, so energy is confined to each muscle and does not flow beyond structure.

Scrawny guys with no muscle....

[taai gihk yahn]

Something else to consider:

if qigong is a "natural" practice, then, theoretically, it should be something that a) would not follow a rigid, set formula and b) shud b able to b spontaneously intuited by anyone who invests time into exploration along those lines;

also, think about the origins of qigong: how did it first come about? someone had to derive the approach, right? someone had to articulate it first; well, how did they come up with it? no one taught it to them, they derived it "naturally"

certain Taoist texts talk about qigong as being a "corruption"; in the Chuang Tzu it's stated that "the natural man breathes straight down to his heels";

if we look a the root of qigong, we find Taoist shamanic practice; shamanism evolved out of the intuitive / instinctual relationship that humans had with their environment before the human mind became dominated by the neo-cortex, that is, before the primacy of abstraction / symbolic thought; in other words, we used to "do" qigong 'naturally" when we lived in a state of relative non-differentiation - before we developed the cortical apparatus that resulted in hierarchical / dialectical thinking; I mean, when my dog stretches into "downward dog", he is doing qigong in a way that is "natural" - he doesn't have to be "taught" how to do it; so shamanic practice was an attempt to move back into that "garden of eden" state, where qigong was not differentiated from simply moving / being;

so if u want to really cultivate, following a formulaic approach can b useful, but ultimately it's a fabrication; the point of it is "expedient means" - some people can spontaneously achieve a levee of cultivation that others need a more linear approach to achieve;

go now and ponder...

[YouKnowWho]

Ying yang?

Yang is for offense. Yin is for defense. You have to develop Yang before you can develop your Yin. You have to develop your offense skill before you can develop your defense skill. You can't Yin your opponent to death.

- A punch is Yang. A deflect punch is Yin.
- A throw is Yang. A throw defense such as spin with your opponent is Yin.

[guy b.]

That is your issue of following those misleading stuffs.

There are business men and con men. You like to follow those con men is your choice. That doesn't mean the whole world is con men.


Also,

If one can't answer my previous two questions on


Why one needs to handle the temperature of zhen qi, and how?


One doesn't know zhen qi and development.


So, forget about all the scientific and your qi my qi, one needs to answer the above two questions before proceed, otherwise one is talking about something one has no idea at all.


Lol Hendrik, you can't ask objective questions about why qi, what is qi, and what isn't qi unless you have a physical theory of what qi is. If you don't then anyone else's subjective answer is equally as valid as your own.

Do you understand this basic logical point?

[taai gihk yahn]

This part of the thread brings me to one of my biggest issues. Can internal and external ever be truely balanced in the human? Are we intrinsically/fundamentally made/ created whatever unbalanced in Ying yang? Why can we be only one or the other? Either muscularly powerful or internally fortified? This does not seem to me to be an expression of balance at all.
If this is true, perhaps ying yang itself is an illusion manifest by our prejudice of perception.
After all many of our ideas of yin yang such as female= small soft weaker are completely opposite in nature. Sometimes yin and yang trade places so quickly as to be almost meaningless.

yes -yin/yang is ultimately a contrivance, albeit at times a useful one with which to apprehend the function of the environment within which we function; all distinction is ultimately without basis in terms of the absolute; however, in terms of the relative, it can b very useful to our day to day existence;

the problem is when people get stuck on transitory aspects and hold onto them as if they were permanent...

[sihing]

Mind is just one of the factors. As Scott R. Brown said illness, injury and mental/emotional imbalance can all cause a blockage. But even if we just take mental/emotional imbalance as the reason, the result of a blockage is physical. Even if we improve the mental status there is no guarantee that the blockage will fully recover and sometimes it needs to be unblocked manually by certain techniques like qigong, acupuncture, massage and herbs. Our body's natural recovery and balancing system has its own limitations and sometimes it needs some help.

I don't agree with Scott R. Brown that manipulation is against nature. Everything about our lives is about manipulation. If we do nothing, we would be as good as dead. So whether it's training your brain, your muscles or your qi flow you need to do something in order to grow. What is against nature is the imbalance between yin and yang or in this case over-manipulation. So as long as the training is done in moderation according to one's physique it will be safe and helpful for improving our natural abilities.

Good post:cool:

Over indulgence in anything is not a good thing for one’s life. Manipulation can mean over indulgence. Adjustment can mean balancing. It's all a play of words. The problem with words and communication is the misunderstanding that is bound to happen. We all come from different places, mindset, experiences and such, this is why this happens.

The thing we have, which makes us the dominant species on the planet, is our intelligence and our ability to look at things, analyse and make improvements. Sometime this process is overdone as well, too much thinking, not enough perceiving/being. Finding that balance is what makes our lives that much better as "compared" (there you go Scott) to an unbalanced life. What's the measure of a balanced life? Happiness, sustainable happiness. Chi is a part of that process, as well as the physical, mental and emotional systems which make up a total human being.

James

[guy b.]

This part of the thread brings me to one of my biggest issues. Can internal and external ever be truely balanced in the human? Are we intrinsically/fundamentally made/ created whatever unbalanced in Ying yang? Why can we be only one or the other? Either muscularly powerful or internally fortified? This does not seem to me to be an expression of balance at all.
If this is true, perhaps ying yang itself is an illusion manifest by our prejudice of perception.
After all many of our ideas of yin yang such as female= small soft weaker are completely opposite in nature. Sometimes yin and yang trade places so quickly as to be almost meaningless.

If you consciously relax your mobilisers and focus on fascial and tendon connection while doing something strenuous you are utilising qigung principles to help with external physical exertion

[Robinhood]

Scrawny guys with no muscle....

There is no picture ?

[guy b.]

the aging body , sickness, and daily life cause stagnation, qigong is for restore the natural flow.
Without the qigong lots of flow will never get restored.



Healthy food, clean air, moderate exercise , and some level of mental self control do not restore the natural flow. In fact self control is problem. Self control is artificial.


Qigong is get things restore and let go the self control . Let's not guessing and speculate what is qigong before know what it is.

Knowing is having a physical theory that equates well to physical experience over a long period of time. It is not learning some esoteric nonsense and regurgitating it as fact.

[guy b.]

Scott,

your view is based on philosophy which seems right but it is not that way.


What happen is the Qigong has three process,
1, turn Jin into Qi
2, Turn Qi into Shen
3, Return Shen to emptiness

So, the first step is a Chemistry step which is dealling with matter. if one cannot get passed this step then all the philosphy are just wishfull thinking book learning. it is not about understanding Tao or Lao Tzu, it is does one has the process to do the transformation.


they will not be able to go into Turn Qi into Shen, and never will be able to attain the Dao in the Emptiness state. all the book reading knowledge is just a wish. in the real life when one get into the Emptiness state, that is the real Dao, that dimension is inconcievable via book reading imagination.

Thus, any one who claim to practice Qigong, must go through the physical transformation process which how Zhen Qi is develop and grow.

only after the Qi level is up to some high energy state level the next state can occur.




For healing, and martial art, the minimum, one needs to be able to handle the first state or the turn Jin into Qi level. not able to do so doesnt really know Qigong.

That is a very beginer state.

Those who claim to stand, relax, lead by mind without knowing the turn Jin into Qi process are just BSing others.

Those who have gone through the turn Jin into Qi state will be able to go to any University Research Lab to let the research examine their development, it has not mysterious at all.


I ask the two questions purposly to tell the western friends, dont buy in to BS where everyone called Qi and also do not be ignoranced by just studying some relaxation or mantra chanting or deep breathing or Dao or Zen to thinking one knows what it is.

The bottom line is, only if one goes through the transform jin into Qi process one has handling on Qi basic, and the two questions are a must , similar to those who is in the chemistry lab for chemical reaction.

Thus, for the phenomenon called Qi, the reality is not philosphy or understanding but chemical reaction handle by basic human functions.



there is no point to talk about Zhen Qi when one doesnt have it . there is no point to critic on scientific research when one is not those university researchers who has seen the real thing.

Lol at denying and claiming a physical theory of qi at the same time.

Which is it?

[WC1277]

Qigong is just an exercise of any kind where a balance exists. Sil lim Tao has qigong in it and so does chi sau. It also is not something you 'visualize' but something you concentrate on feeling. A simple awareness of your own body and its limits and in turn it will reward you with being able to balance your extremes. WC in a lot of ways is Qigong in both action and testing. Your structure is only most efficient when you're aware of the limits of either the force you can take or the force you can give, etc.

[taai gihk yahn]

If you consciously relax your mobilisers and focus on fascial and tendon connection while doing something strenuous you are utilising qigung principles to help with external physical exertion
huh?

what do u mean by "relax mobilizes and focus on fascial and tendon connection"?

[guy b.]

huh?

what do u mean by "relax mobilizes and focus on fascial and tendon connection"?

Simply that. Relax everything you are aware of (i.e. the mobilsers, movement musculature). Stand until you become aware of the stabilisers (postural musculature). Qigong is a process whereby you re-educate the body to use the stabilisers. After gaining awareness of stabiliser musculature the next step is to integrate the movement of the body to use stabilisers against any resistance that is encountered, as if acting against gravity as they do naturally. This is the basis of whole-body strength, hardness from softness. Further training enables the use of the stabilisers in a natural way and integration of the mobilisers and fascia (connective fibrous tissue) in issuing of strength (fajing).

[guy b.]

I feel a bit embarrassed for Hendrik attempting to test people using an unfalsifiable model utilising the tired old TCM "many types of qi" nonsense.

It is painful to continue harking back to this superstition. If it is real, explain it.

[Robinhood]

in the 17+ years of practicing as a PT, I have met a lot of people who make these claims; inevitably, they think that they r being objective, when in fact they r simply delusional; and having been taught how to do this sort of thing and even using it for a while (e.g. - the craniosacral / visceral manipulation people do a lot of this sort of thing; I've also been taught this through a qigong pathway), I have been on both sides of the fence; it is a highly self-indulgent state of being to think that u can just look at someone and see what is "blocked" - again, having done it for a period of time, i understand what is going on, and in fact u can get positive results with people using this sort of approach - however, there is a limit to this sort of "intuitive" approach, and in fact it's largely predicated on reinforcement of both ur fantasy as an authority figure and the person's acceptance thereof (that is, a lot of people like to be told what's wrong with them by someone else who they set up as a "guru" with special powers - it makes them feel like they are part of something extraordinary);

fact is, these claims are very easy to debunk: I've even had the chance to demonstrate how to do this - it's very straight forward to show how where you might think someone is blocked is influenced by various factors that have nothing to do with ur supposed "qi reading" ability; there r postural factors that will draw people to what they think r "blocks", there r also entrainment factors on the part of the person being "read"; the problem is that it seems objective, but in fact it's so far off the mark it's not even funny;

I don't expect u to understand any of what I am saying, I've found it generally impossible to talk sense into people of ur ilk; it's more for the other reasonable types reading this thread or for someone who might b inclined to give these ridiculous claims credence;


this is just sheer lunacy; I've worked with muscles my whole career, and the idea of "big" muscles blocking qi makes no sense whatsoever; if u want to talk about muscle imbalances, such as typically is the case with flexors being facilitated and extensors being inhibited (a la Vladimir Janda, MD or Shirley Sahrman, PT), that's fine - but this sort of pathological situation can be articulated much more effectively on its own terms, without using a "qi" model;


It is just a level reached from building chi, if you can't see it or don't think it is real, you have not reached this level yet, no reason to get all bent out of shape, if you find the right teacher and put in the right practice, someday you might get to this level.

But if you keep your know it all attitude , you probably won't.

[Scott R. Brown]

I don't agree with Scott R. Brown that manipulation is against nature. Everything about our lives is about manipulation. If we do nothing, we would be as good as dead. So whether it's training your brain, your muscles or your qi flow you need to do something in order to grow. What is against nature is the imbalance between yin and yang or in this case over-manipulation. So as long as the training is done in moderation according to one's physique it will be safe and helpful for improving our natural abilities.

I should be more clear, and I understand how it may appear I am implying that I believe manipulation of qi is "against nature", but I am not.

Following the principles of Tao, if something is doable, if it can be accomplished, it cannot be unnatural. So, even contrivance is not really unnatural.

However, the universe is governed by Cause and Effect. For every action there is a reaction, for every action there is a consequence. So, the question, for me, becomes, not, “Is an action natural or unnatural, if it can be done, performed, accomplished, IT IS NATURAL! So, the question is, does the action provide the optimal results for its stated goal or purpose?

The question is, NOT is Qigong natural or unnatural, but do its effects/consequences provide the most optimal result? Clearly qi may be manipulated under the Qigong model, therefore Qigong is not an unnatural process, but does its results provide the best opportunity for qi to follow its most natural path according to its own nature, or are we artificially interfering with its natural flow and creating unintended consequences?

Heart bypass is creating an artificial pathway for the blood to flow to the heart, but the consequence of not doing a bypass is frequently death, so in most cases the consequence of creating an artificial pathway for the blood to flow to the heart is the optimal consequence for survival.

This is why I have tried not to actually say Qigong is wrong or bad, but merely under most systems of its practice its teachings are incomplete.

[Scott R. Brown]

….however, there is a limit to this sort of "intuitive" approach, and in fact it's largely predicated on reinforcement of both ur fantasy as an authority figure and the person's acceptance thereof (that is, a lot of people like to be told what's wrong with them by someone else who they set up as a "guru" with special powers - it makes them feel like they are part of something extraordinary);

This is the process that shaman use. It is a type of hypnosis which involves acceptance of the authority of the practitioner and an acceptance of the system/method he practices. Approximately 30% of individuals have positive results from the placebo effect. This demonstrates the power of belief and the mind when it comes to healing or ameliorating physiological imbalances.

[Scott R. Brown]

Something else to consider:

if qigong is a "natural" practice, then, theoretically, it should be something that a) would not follow a rigid, set formula and b) shud b able to b spontaneously intuited by anyone who invests time into exploration along those lines;

also, think about the origins of qigong: how did it first come about? someone had to derive the approach, right? someone had to articulate it first; well, how did they come up with it? no one taught it to them, they derived it "naturally"

certain Taoist texts talk about qigong as being a "corruption"; in the Chuang Tzu it's stated that "the natural man breathes straight down to his heels";

if we look a the root of qigong, we find Taoist shamanic practice; shamanism evolved out of the intuitive / instinctual relationship that humans had with their environment before the human mind became dominated by the neo-cortex, that is, before the primacy of abstraction / symbolic thought; in other words, we used to "do" qigong 'naturally" when we lived in a state of relative non-differentiation - before we developed the cortical apparatus that resulted in hierarchical / dialectical thinking; I mean, when my dog stretches into "downward dog", he is doing qigong in a way that is "natural" - he doesn't have to be "taught" how to do it; so shamanic practice was an attempt to move back into that "garden of eden" state, where qigong was not differentiated from simply moving / being;

so if u want to really cultivate, following a formulaic approach can b useful, but ultimately it's a fabrication; the point of it is "expedient means" - some people can spontaneously achieve a levee of cultivation that others need a more linear approach to achieve;

go now and ponder...

Nicely said....as always!:p

[Scott R. Brown]

It is just a level reached from building chi, if you can't see it or don't think it is real, you have not reached this level yet, no reason to get all bent out of shape, if you find the right teacher and put in the right practice, someday you might get to this level.

But if you keep your know it all attitude , you probably won't.

Just because someone has different experiences than you, or interprets their experiences differently from you does not mean they do not know what you are talking about.

He probably knows a lot more than you.

That does not invalidate your experiences, but your interpretation of your experiences are clearly incomplete to those of use that have a broader perspective on the subject.

[guy b.]

Just because someone has different experiences than you, or interprets their experiences differently from you does not mean they do not know what you are talking about.

He probably knows a lot more than you.

That does not invalidate your experiences, but your interpretation of your experiences are clearly incomplete to those of use that have a broader perspective on the subject.

Unless of course we are talking about a real physical thing that we can easily measure. But these guys avoid that possibility like the plague

[Scott R. Brown]

Unless of course we are talking about a real physical thing that we can easily measure. But these guys avoid that possibility like the plague

Most people want tangible proof. You cannot blame anyone for wanting proof. We live in a world of charlatans who take advantage of others for money, status and fame.

Almost all of the effects attributed to Qi may be explained using already known and understood physiological processes.

I personally take an agnostic perspective, I accept the possibility of its existence, but so far the evidence is very under-whelming in its support and as I have stated numerous times already, its effects do not come anywhere near the advantages gained using other systems of training.

Qigong is good for health, but it is not the only method that provides the same effects. it may or may not help with spiritual development, but it is not the only method that provides the same effects.

Qigong is extremely under-whelming when it comes to develping the ability to be an exceptional fighter. This is very well demonstrated any time one watches a good MMA fight, fencing bout, boxing match, or any of the various forms of wrestling around the world. You NEVER see any qigong user, much less master, succeed in any of these competitions. Even if one or two did, it would still be ONLY one or two in all the history of fighting. The only thing qigong practitioners have to back them up is imaginary legends and this is NOT proof since the legendary feats have not been repeated in modern times!

This is why qigong is laughed at! It makes wild claims that cannot be substantiated in the REAL world. This gives strong evidence that its practitioners are living in the land of make believe.;)

[Robinhood]

Just because someone has different experiences than you, or interprets their experiences differently from you does not mean they do not know what you are talking about.

He probably knows a lot more than you.

That does not invalidate your experiences, but your interpretation of your experiences are clearly incomplete to those of use that have a broader perspective on the subject.

No, he said he hasn't had or seen for himself. Which is normal if you haven't cultivated your chi.

It is not a trick or an authoritative thing, you just recognize it and can show people the difference between flow and blocked flow, simple as that. No believing praying or priest stuff like you keep referencing.

[Robinhood]

Most people want tangible proof. You cannot blame anyone for wanting proof. We live in a world of charlatans who take advantage of others for money, status and fame.

Almost all of the effects attributed to Qi may be explained using already known and understood physiological processes.

I personally take an agnostic perspective, I accept the possibility of its existence, but so far the evidence is very under-whelming in its support and as I have stated numerous times already, its effects do not come anywhere near the advantages gained using other systems of training.

Qigong is good for health, but it is not the only method that provides the same effects. it may or may not help with spiritual development, but it is not the only method that provides the same effects.

Qigong is extremely under-whelming when it comes to develping the ability to be an exceptional fighter. This is very well demonstrated any time one watches a good MMA fight, fencing bout, boxing match, or any of the various forms of wrestling around the world. You NEVER see any qigong user, much less master, succeed in any of these competitions. Even if one or two did, it would still be ONLY one or two in all the history of fighting. The only thing qigong practitioners have to back them up is imaginary legends and this is NOT proof since the legendary feats have not been repeated in modern times!

This is why qigong is laughed at! It makes wild claims that cannot be substantiated in the REAL world. This gives strong evidence that its practitioners are living in the land of make believe.;)

With your attitude it is no wonder that no one has shown you the benefit of chi development. I always show people first hand, with chi then without chi, or the other way around, doesn't matter, so they know what chi will do for them.

If someone does not see the benefit of chi, why would they practice to get it ?

[Matthew]

Probably the interaction of qi with what we know so far of the physical reality mostly in terms of electromagnetism is the first clue in uncovering the truth about what can be sensed and seen through meditation and inner cultivation.

I think that aligns (at least in part) with Yang Jwing Ming and some other modern-western educated qigong practitioners.

Also- Really want to thank you for your post on Chinese language and interpretation of DaoDe Jing and ancient Chinese text. I'm only a few years into Chinese study and yet so many years away from having even foundational historical literary/contextual understandings enough to try and read such a text.

Even a single character we might read could have a myriad of meanings. That is beyond the fact that most chinese characters are never seen alone- only compounding the innate difficulty (and near impossibility IMO) of practical translations.

I'm not too concerned about a scientifically derived understanding of Qi- although it might be nice in proving its efficacy and bringing interest to wider audience. IMO such an understanding might not be much help in cultivating anyway.

[Scott R. Brown]

No, he said he hasn't had or seen for himself. Which is normal if you haven't cultivated your chi.

It is not a trick or an authoritative thing, you just recognize it and can show people the difference between flow and blocked flow, simple as that. No believing praying or priest stuff like you keep referencing.


With your attitude it is no wonder that no one has shown you the benefit of chi development. I always show people first hand, with chi then without chi, or the other way around, doesn't matter, so they know what chi will do for them.

If someone does not see the benefit of chi, why would they practice to get it ?

At first I thought you just had a different perspective, so I treated you accordingly, but I can see now you truly are as dumb as a door!

[wenshu]

Qi is not an abstract idea and is something that can be sensed and seen usually by a few months to a few years of training depending on the person. First of all there should be a collaboration between scientists and high level qigong practitioners so that they can design proper tests to show that what they see is not a subjective or imaginary experience( as I said before I have successfully done this part). After that they can start investigating what exactly it is that these people see and how it can affect the known physical world.


What? Explain to me how you measure qi? Or even point to a specific definition of qi in this context.

Something can be sensed, all that means is that there is a sensation and the reason there hasn't been more in depth scientific research into it is because it doesn't get past the fact that all of those sensations can be explained easily within the context of well understood autonomic function.

[Matthew]

also, think about the origins of qigong: how did it first come about? someone had to derive the approach, right? someone had to articulate it first; well, how did they come up with it? no one taught it to them, they derived it "naturally"

certain Taoist texts talk about qigong as being a "corruption"; in the Chuang Tzu it's stated that "the natural man breathes straight down to his heels";


Please elaborate- actually can you quote the text in question?

In Chinese please, because I never heard of anything about the Natural Man and so I question your understanding of the idea that qigong is a corruption.

If you are talking about 真人 breathing to heels, from my reading and understanding it is more implying a cultivated/transformed man, which would be counter to your implication that qigong was a corruption.

Again, I'm only a few years into Chinese study and interested to learn more as far as ancient texts are concerned.




if we look a the root of qigong, we find Taoist shamanic practice; shamanism evolved out of the intuitive / instinctual relationship that humans had with their environment before the human mind became dominated by the neo-cortex, that is, before the primacy of abstraction / symbolic thought; in other words, we used to "do" qigong 'naturally" when we lived in a state of relative non-differentiation - before we developed the cortical apparatus that resulted in hierarchical / dialectical thinking

It's interesting to look at where things came from, but it seems a stretch to imply that all ancient people naturally did qigong without organizing expedient methods of cultivating Qi.

otherwise I don't think we wouldn't see texts/methods of cultivating Qi from ancient times.

Although I partially agree, they did it more naturally. Waking up with the sun, eating unprocessed foods, not sitting around in idle on computers, TV, etc, doing work outdoors, having a generally simple life would absolutely help in cultivating. This is a good reason people take vacations, breaks, etc

I'm also interested in more about the differences in brain development between Chinese and others who use language in a literal fashion (such as letters/words/sentences) rather than symbols which have conceptual meaning that can have varied interpretations/ideas.



so if u want to really cultivate, following a formulaic approach can b useful, but ultimately it's a fabrication; the point of it is "expedient means" -

That's why it's so important to have a good teacher. Formulaic approaches address universal audiences and may not be the most expedient in fact. A good teacher can deem both where you are at currently, and how you can improve that.

[Hendrik]

If you are talking about 真人 breathing to heels, from my reading and understanding it is more implying a cultivated/transformed man, which would be counter to your implication that qigong was a corruption.------------


Heel breathing just mean a type of deep breathing which accord with the spine natural movement. One doesn't have to be cultivate man to practice it. In fact one practice it to cultivate.




Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn
also, think about the origins of qigong: how did it first come about? someone had to derive the approach, right? someone had to articulate it first; well, how did they come up with it? no one taught it to them, they derived it "naturally"

certain Taoist texts talk about qigong as being a "corruption"; in the Chuang Tzu it's stated that "the natural man breathes straight down to his heels";---------------------



Btw, qigong is modern term coin by Liu GUI Jen in the 1950 of communist china. There is no such term in ancient china text. So, this qigong term is a great test to see if one is really study qigong in depth.

[taai gihk yahn]

It is just a level reached from building chi, if you can't see it or don't think it is real, you have not reached this level yet, no reason to get all bent out of shape, if you find the right teacher and put in the right practice, someday you might get to this level.

But if you keep your know it all attitude , you probably won't.

you misunderstand - I have "seen it", I used to "use it" with patients; I then realized what it was, as well as it's limitations and the intrinsic self-delusory aspect thereof; I used to be like you; I moved on; your problem is that you are too comfortable, thinking that you can do that, when in fact it's a fiction; unfortunately, you have no objective methodology against which to rebalance your delusory notions of what you think that you are doing;

I'm not saying you don't see things, and I'm not saying that what you see doesn't correlate to something that's actually there - it's just that what you think you are seeing isn't really what you are seeing; and since you have no objective methodology against which to compare it, you have no capacity to move beyond it;

the biggest clue, the one that you are missing, are your feelings of satisfaction and certainty; these are the most dangerous things imaginable; but since you don't treat people professionally, you can enjoy your amateur status without having to worry about it;

I don't "know it all"; however, based on my personal and professional experiences, i know a heck of a lot more than you do;

[Hendrik]

What? Explain to me how you measure qi? Or even point to a specific definition of qi in this context.

Something can be sensed, all that means is that there is a sensation and the reason there hasn't been more in depth scientific research into it is because it doesn't get past the fact that all of those sensations can be explained easily within the context of well understood autonomic function.

Qi is a human body chemical reaction. It can be measured , what it needs is only a few good scientists with a good heart, a good lab working for shake of working , no politics, no money making agenda, no racism, no self promote agenda.

[taai gihk yahn]

At first I thought you just had a different perspective, so I treated you accordingly, but I can see now you truly are as dumb as a door!
he's just stuck at the phenomenal stage, and unfortunately, because he doesn't practice healing in a professional context, he thinks his perception of "qi blockages" are something other than his eye being guided to certain aspects of posture and habitus - he is being drawn to certain things that are there - like watching a river and being drawn to where the rocks stick up; but he then inappropriately extrapolates this perceptual experience to something delusory; if he were actively treating people hands-on, he would at least have a chance to understand his misunderstanding, but he doesn't, so he won't be able to;

[Hendrik]

you misunderstand - I have "seen it", I used to "use it" with patients; I then realized what it was, as well as it's limitations and the intrinsic self-delusory aspect thereof; I used to be like you; I moved on; your problem is that you are too comfortable, thinking that you can do that, when in fact it's a fiction; unfortunately, you have no objective methodology against which to rebalance your delusory notions of what you think that you are doing;

I'm not saying you don't see things, and I'm not saying that what you see doesn't correlate to something that's actually there - it's just that what you think you are seeing isn't really what you are seeing; and since you have no objective methodology against which to compare it, you have no capacity to move beyond it;

the biggest clue, the one that you are missing, are your feelings of satisfaction and certainty; these are the most dangerous things imaginable; but since you don't treat people professionally, you can enjoy your amateur status without having to worry about it;

I don't "know it all"; however, based on my personal and professional experiences, i know a heck of a lot more than you do;


So, please share, do one needs to control the temperature of the zhen qi? If yes, why, how, and to what degree or how can one knows it is proper?

[taai gihk yahn]

Qi is a human body chemical reaction. It can be measured , what it needs is only a few good scientists with a good heart, a good lab working for shake of working , no politics, no money making agenda, no racism, no self promote agenda.

if "qi" is a human body chemical reaction, then that is what you will measure: chemical reactions; so why not just talk about the chemical reaction? if you can describe it in these cornet terms, then no need to talk about "qi" at all;

[taai gihk yahn]

So, please share, do one needs to control the temperature of the zhen qi? If yes, why, how, and to what degree or how can one knows it is proper?
you really just get stuck on this one thing, and don't even realize how irrelevant it is

[Hendrik]

if "qi" is a human body chemical reaction, then that is what you will measure: chemical reactions; so why not just talk about the chemical reaction? if you can describe it in these cornet terms, then no need to talk about "qi" at all;


It is similar to charging a battery , there is chemistry, physical, electical quantity.

In fact most people doesn't know what it is. And those who knows what it is , no one wants to listen.

[taai gihk yahn]

Heel breathing just mean a type of deep breathing which accord with the spine natural movement. One doesn't have to be cultivate man to practice it. In fact one practice it to cultivate.
yup; it's about breathing with the entire body - u start w respiratory diaphragm, then coordinate with pelvic; u engage the pedal diapraghms (one-half under each foot - the two feet arches when put together are shaped like the dome of the respiratory - this is the Subterranean Spring connection) by the way ground reaction force travels back up the body from when u engage the upper diaphragms - the "skill" is to learn to ride it so that you "float" the cranium and activate the cranial diaphragm (tentorium cerebelli) which stimulates the pituitary gland ("third eye") that sits in the sella tucica of the sphenoid bone, which "pumps" due to the movement of the dural membranes that u synchronize w the breath and ground reaction force; this is the physiological pathway for the Micro Cosmic Orbit; when u synchronize all of these systems, u experience various things, including lightness on top / rootedness on the bottom...

and BTW, u utilize one aspect of the cerebral spinal fluid "flow" rhythm (known to some as the "Long Tide") as a way of mediating / cooling any excess stimulation of sympathetic chain - which results in "heat" of "zhen qi" that Hendrick keeps going on and on about...


Btw, qigong is modern term coin by Liu GUI Jen in the 1950 of communist china. There is no such term in ancient china text.
that is correct;

good lord - we actually agree on both of these things...

[Hendrik]

you really just get stuck on this one thing, and don't even realize how irrelevant it is

I can tell you straight seriously, anyone who doesn't know these basic doesnt know qi development . For they don't know what it is and how to handle, when to handle.

So, one can check out all those so called expert guru or master, if they cannot tell , they don't know zhen qi basic 101.

[xinyidizi]

This is why qigong is laughed at! It makes wild claims that cannot be substantiated in the REAL world. This gives strong evidence that its practitioners are living in the land of make believe.

Qigong is only laughed at where there isn't much authentic stuff available like in western countries. I have seen many high level martial artists of both internal and external styles in China who practice qigong and these people don't live in their fantasy. If an amateur laughs at qigong in the TCMA circles here, people will laugh at him. The low level of qigong discussions on non-Chinese websites gives me the impression that a lot of misunderstanding about qigong is due to not having access to proper TCMA circles.

[Hendrik]

yup; it's about breathing with the entire body - u start w respiratory diaphragm, then coordinate with pelvic; u engage the pedal diapraghms (one-half under each foot - the two feet arches when put together are shaped like the dome of the respiratory - this is the Subterranean Spring connection) by the way ground reaction force travels back up the body from when u engage the upper diaphragms - the "skill" is to learn to ride it so that you "float" the cranium and activate the cranial diaphragm (tentorium cerebelli) which stimulates the pituitary gland ("third eye") that sits in the sella tucica of the sphenoid bone, which "pumps" due to the movement of the dural membranes that u synchronize w the breath and ground reaction force; this is the physiological pathway for the Micro Cosmic Orbit; when u synchronize all of these systems, u experience various things, including lightness on top / rootedness on the bottom...

and BTW, u utilize one aspect of the cerebral spinal fluid "flow" rhythm (known to some as the "Long Tide") as a way of mediating / cooling any excess stimulation of sympathetic chain - which results in "heat" of "zhen qi" that Hendrick keeps going on and on about...

----------


Sorry, that is your interpretation. Not what it is.

Btw, zhen qi doesn't mean heat.

[Matthew]

If you are talking about 真人 breathing to heels, from my reading and understanding it is more implying a cultivated/transformed man, which would be counter to your implication that qigong was a corruption.------------


Heel breathing just mean a type of deep breathing which accord with the spine natural movement. One doesn't have to be cultivate man to practice it. In fact one practice it to cultivate.

Btw, qigong is modern term coin by Liu GUI Jen in the 1950 of communist china. There is no such term in ancient china text.

Thank you Hendrik,

I should have left out the "breathing to heels" part in that post. I was referring to the term 真人 and not to cultivating practices specifically.

Interesting about the term QiGong- thanks for that bit.

Maybe not in ancient times, but I'm not sure Liu was the originator, as there were other teachers who were a bit older than him using it at that time too, indicating the term may be a bit older, even if not ancient. Do you mean Liu Gui Zhen?

I had seen a popping up of articles regarding QiGong after new china too, but the term was used by other masters besides him too.

I have a teacher, her father is a publisher and editor of many Qi Gong/TCM/pratitioners articles at the time of new china (1950 era) including Liu Gui Zhen, Hu Yao Zhen, and others many using Qigong term.

[Hendrik]

Qigong is only laughed at where there isn't much authentic stuff available like in western countries. I have seen many high level martial artists of both internal and external styles in China who practice qigong and these people don't live in their fantasy. If an amateur laughs at qigong in the TCMA circles here, people will laugh at him. The low level of qigong discussions on non-Chinese websites gives me the impression that a lot of misunderstanding about qigong is due to not having access to proper TCMA circles.


Before 1950, it is called neigong in tcma. It is as solid and as real as rock.

[taai gihk yahn]

Simply that. Relax everything you are aware of (i.e. the mobilsers, movement musculature). Stand until you become aware of the stabilisers (postural musculature). Qigong is a process whereby you re-educate the body to use the stabilisers. After gaining awareness of stabiliser musculature the next step is to integrate the movement of the body to use stabilisers against any resistance that is encountered, as if acting against gravity as they do naturally. This is the basis of whole-body strength, hardness from softness. Further training enables the use of the stabilisers in a natural way and integration of the mobilisers and fascia (connective fibrous tissue) in issuing of strength (fajing).

ok, so u seem to b talking about standing statically using ur multifidi as a primary means of controlling postural sways opposed to peripherals (e.g. - short neck flexors versus SCM / scaliness / upper trapezius); then u engage in slow movement so that u organize from the core to the periphery alone and then against resistance; finally, against resistance u coordinate ur musculature with the intrinsic tensegrity of connective tissue, in context of its continuous tension / discontinuous compression properties;

sure;

u can also do this via Pilates, Feldenkries, Alexander Technique, yoga and others - it is not unique to qigong; it's just another pathway; altho I will say that the standing practice is pretty uncommon, perhaps even "unique";

BTW, this is why u get "spontaneous movement" at the beginning stages - u "turn off" the peripheral muscles first; what happens then is u have the core stabilizers auto-correct - meaning that what happens typically to multifidi is that they develop asymmetric patterns, biasing u towards asymmetric rotation / side bending; the peripherals try to pull u back to midline, based on the brain's programming to have the eyes organize to the midline and horizon line; but the multifidi want u to go into weird asymmetric positions in order to "reset" themselves back to normal resting length (active indirect technique); so u get all of these "writhing" movements which is the spinal musculature trying to self-correct; the thing to do here is get out of ur own way - don't try to consciously control it, ur body is "unwinding" on its own - best to let it happen (it may be easier to lie on the floor for this process at the beginning to eliminate the need to organize in gravity while it happens); yoga, Feldenkreis, etc. also deal w this, just more directly; standing (or lying) practice will engage it spontaneously;

once u have "unwound", ur standing practice changes dramatically; u also r much "stronger" when u push...

[taai gihk yahn]

Sorry, that is your interpretation. Not what it is.
sure that is what it is - I went through it opening up my orbits, and figured out the anatomy after the fact


Btw, zhen qi doesn't mean heat.
sure zhen qi doesn't mean heat, but u have the experience of things "heating up" when it circulates initially;

[Hendrik]

Thank you Hendrik,

I should have left out the "breathing to heels" part in that post. I was referring to the term 真人 and not to cultivating practices specifically.

Interesting about the term QiGong- thanks for that bit.

Maybe not in ancient times, but I'm not sure Liu was the originator, as there were other teachers who were a bit older than him using it at that time too, indicating the term may be a bit older, even if not ancient. Do you mean Liu Gui Zhen?

I had seen a popping up of articles regarding QiGong after new china too, but the term was used by other masters besides him too.

I have a teacher, her father is a publisher and editor of many Qi Gong/TCM/pratitioners articles at the time of new china (1950 era) including Liu Gui Zhen, Hu Yao Zhen, and others many using Qigong term.

No problem

In ancient there are various different arts of neigong.
The heel breathing belongs to Tu Na or inhale exhale art.

Liu sickness got heal by a breathing based neigong , he was spreading his neigong, so he coin it as qigong , qi means breathing. After that the term get popular and everyone starts to use it. And it actually is misleading because it is too board and even cult called themself qigong.


In the old term, qi as in qigong means breathing , while Mai means the flow of zhen qi,. So, in ancient , it is called train the breathing and cultivate the Mai. Two different things.

So, i purposely put out that question of the zhen qi and temperature. To see who really know with experience.

Thus, there is tu Na, there is zhen qi and Mai cultivation, there is Shen gong or similar with the samantha of Buddhist. One needs to know all these to know the real deal of before 1950.

For example,
If you take a look at the yik kam slt kuen kuit of 1850 I release a few months ago in this forum. You can see all the tu Na, Mai, and Shen are mentioned in that writing.

[Hendrik]

sure that is what it is - I went through it opening up my orbits, and figured out the anatomy after the fact----------

That doesnt fit ancient description and practice.


sure zhen qi doesn't mean heat, but u have the experience of things "heating up" when it circulates initially;---------

Nope. Not necessary.

[taai gihk yahn]

Please elaborate- actually can you quote the text in question?
unfortunately, I can't - my sifu has said this many times over the years, and I believe it's from the Dao Jang (which I am not personally familiar with), but I may be wrong;


If you are talking about 真人 breathing to heels, from my reading and understanding it is more implying a cultivated/transformed man, which would be counter to your implication that qigong was a corruption.
I've read it only in translation, my Chinese was reading was never more than rudimentary; I think the text I recall is Burton Watson's translation (which I believe is not very highly regarded at this point; I think A C Graham's translation is a little more accurate, but i could be wrong; ), and it might have actually been rendered as "the men of old breathed clear down to their heels" ( I'd have to go back and check, but all my various versions of the Chuang Tzu r in storage for the time being, so i can't just run and look them up)
and u make an interesting point, it well might contradict my exegesis; i think it warrants more research...


It's interesting to look at where things came from, but it seems a stretch to imply that all ancient people naturally did qigong [I]without organizing expedient methods of cultivating Qi
otherwise I don't think we wouldn't see texts/methods of cultivating Qi from ancient times.
well, i think what I mean is that at one point there was simple naturalistic movement in most aspects of daily life, that by their very nature were healthful: walking a lot, swatting a lot, sprinting ever now and again, 'play" based movement - if u look at what a lot of the "paleo diet" people postulate, these fundamental ways of experiencing movement were intrinsically healthful, so people didn't actually need to cultivate anything beyond that;


Although I partially agree, they did it more naturally. Waking up with the sun, eating unprocessed foods, not sitting around in idle on computers, TV, etc, doing work outdoors, having a generally simple life would absolutely help in cultivating. This is a good reason people take vacations, breaks, etc
exactly - think that a lot of "ancient" hermits did just that - live din relative seclusion, had little day to day free floating anxiety, avoided contact w others and hence minimized exposure to diseases, and lived in a generally parasympathetic-state; lots of fresh air, water and vitamin D, and a relatively care-free existence, assuming that they had adequate food supply and whatnot


I'm also interested in more about the differences in brain development between Chinese and others who use language in a literal fashion (such as letters/words/sentences) rather than symbols which have conceptual meaning that can have varied interpretations/ideas.
that is a very interesting topic - I believe that it makes a big difference, especially given that characters can have multiple meanings - suggesting a greater degree of comfort with ambiguity and multiple simultaneous interpretations;


That's why it's so important to have a good teacher. Formulaic approaches address universal audiences and may not be the most expedient in fact. A good teacher can deem both where you are at currently, and how you can improve that
my teacher is pretty "classical"; his version of nei hung is very different from the "standardized" sets u see coming out of PRC, much more detailed and comprehensive;

[taai gihk yahn]

s
That doesnt fit ancient description and practice.
of course it doesn't; they didn't have the level of anatomical knowledge that we have now;


Nope. Not necessary.
didn't say it was necessary, but it can happen; so can other things...

[Hendrik]

of course it doesn't; they didn't have the level of anatomical knowledge that we have now;


didn't say it was necessary, but it can happen; so can other things...


One of the big issue in the west is every one loves to define their own qigong .
And that get me wonder, how the heck is one can get result from all these sElf define stuffs?

So, there is the needy for scientific explanation people, there is the self define gurus.

So, forget about the scientific research, because it is hopeless With this situation.
There is no qigong as the ancient Chinese practice, so what to say?


My reason to be in this forum talking about it is because, for god sake, give mercy to the western people who hope qigong might be able to help them for thier health. If you gurus cannot even have the basic don't mislead others.

For example
Many gurus talk about six healing sounds qigong in the USA is bul****ting what they don't know, selling snake oil .

[Matthew]

unfortunately, I can't - my sifu has said this many times over the years, and I believe it's from the Dao Jang (which I am not personally familiar with), but I may be wrong;


I've read it only in translation, my Chinese was reading was never more than rudimentary; I think the text I recall is Burton Watson's translation (which I believe is not very highly regarded at this point; I think A C Graham's translation is a little more accurate, but i could be wrong; ), and it might have actually been rendered as "the men of old breathed clear down to their heels" ( I'd have to go back and check, but all my various versions of the Chuang Tzu r in storage for the time being, so i can't just run and look them up)
and u make an interesting point, it well might contradict my exegesis; i think it warrants more research...

I really have to again emphasize xinyidizi earlier post that Chinese classical texts can be pretty much void of meaning when translated.

Just to start on even a single character there is some lengthy history here to give you an idea. ZhenRen referring to my saying "cultivated/transformed" man... although my Chinese is not that great.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhenren You can literally read it in discussion as it was used in those Daoist texts too. Now take this entire content of this incomplete wikipedia page on this one character, and multiply it by the number of characters in the DaoDeJing classic, and you have yourself an inevitable recipe for translation disaster

This is just to show- as xinyidizi has already emphasized- translations may sound like wayside hippie talk without classical Chinese contextual/historical understandings. I'm still far away from reading a text like DaoDeJing myself anyway too.

Interesting about the characters and brain development. Maybe if I get time one of these days, I'll search up on some research catalogues online to see if I can dig anything up.

[Matthew]

One of the big issue in the west is every one loves to define their own qigong .
And that get me wonder, how the heck is one can result from all these sElf define stuffs?

So, there is the needy for scientific explanation people, there is the self define gurus.

So, forget about the scientific research, because it is hopeless With this situation.
There is no qigong as the ancient Chinese practice, so what to say?



What can we do? If Qigong was not well defined ever, then we have to define it to use it.

Or just not use it- and use specifics. Also, what is the characters for Tu Na you said?

Also it seems Hu YaoZhen made "qigong" hospital in beijing before Liu published using the term Qigong (1953)? Maybe Liu just made the term popular?

In any case- as you said, it as just a new term for many different methods, neigong, xinyigong, shengong, etc

[taai gihk yahn]

I really have to again emphasize xinyidizi earlier post that Chinese classical texts can be pretty much void of meaning when translated.

Just to start on even a single character there is some lengthy history here to give you an idea. ZhenRen referring to my saying "cultivated/transformed" man... although my Chinese is not that great.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhenren You can literally read it in discussion as it was used in those Daoist texts too. Now take this entire content of this incomplete wikipedia page on this one character, and multiply it by the number of characters in the DaoDeJing classic, and you have yourself an inevitable recipe for translation disaster

This is just to show- as xinyidizi has already emphasized- translations may sound like wayside hippie talk without classical Chinese contextual/historical understandings. I'm still far away from reading a text like DaoDeJing myself anyway too.

Interesting about the characters and brain development. Maybe if I get time one of these days, I'll search up on some research catalogues online to see if I can dig anything up.

I don't disagree - u loose a lot in the translation, sometimes to the point where it is meaningless; I've read numerous versions of Chuang Tzu "Inner Chapters" as well as Dao De Jing - certain things seem to correlate, others diverge widely;

i'd go a step further, and suggest that as compared to contemporary Chinese, classical Chinese literature can b as obtuse as Canterbury Tales r to modern English users, so that's even more of a possible means of misconstruing things;

my sifu is trained in Chinese classics, so there r things in translation he has verified and others he has found lacking;it's sort of on a case by are basis...

anyway, ur point is well taken

[Hendrik]

What can we do? If Qigong was not well defined ever, then we have to define it to use it.

Or just not use it- and use specifics. Also, what is the characters for Tu Na you said?

Also it seems Hu YaoZhen made "qigong" hospital in beijing before Liu published using the term Qigong (1953)? Maybe Liu just made the term popular?

In any case- as you said, it as just a new term for many different methods, neigong, xinyigong, shengong, etc


1.There is alots we can do , import only the exactly definition and practice process from china to USA. Look at it as drug to FDA. I don't want to take any drug not approve by FDA. That way we help others. That is the reason we need to get the Kung fa 功法 clear and clean. That is our responsible for our people.

2. Tu Na 吐吶

3. May be on Liu qigong case.

4. Yes. 練氣。修脈。吐吶。入靜。every one has it's professional basic. So, needs to be careful. Called it qigong without knowing those clearly get one into trouble.

[Scott R. Brown]

Btw, qigong is modern term coin by Liu GUI Jen in the 1950 of communist china. There is no such term in ancient china text. So, this qigong term is a great test to see if one is really study qigong in depth.

The original term was nei yeh, originating in the mid 300's B.C.


I don't "know it all"; however, based on my personal and professional experiences, i know a heck of a lot more than you do;

No problem, I do know it all, so if you have any questions, TAKE A NUMBER!!!!:mad:


he's just stuck at the phenomenal stage, and unfortunately, because he doesn't practice healing in a professional context, he thinks his perception of "qi blockages" are something other than his eye being guided to certain aspects of posture and habitus - he is being drawn to certain things that are there - like watching a river and being drawn to where the rocks stick up; but he then inappropriately extrapolates this perceptual experience to something delusory; if he were actively treating people hands-on, he would at least have a chance to understand his misunderstanding, but he doesn't, so he won't be able to;

You are being too kind!:p

But, I agree with you! His mind is so closed he cannot see beyond the small little perspective he has and refuses to allow any questioning of his chosen process and his limited conclusions, thus he is as dumb as a door!


Qigong is only laughed at where there isn't much authentic stuff available like in western countries. I have seen many high level martial artists of both internal and external styles in China who practice qigong and these people don't live in their fantasy. If an amateur laughs at qigong in the TCMA circles here, people will laugh at him. The low level of qigong discussions on non-Chinese websites gives me the impression that a lot of misunderstanding about qigong is due to not having access to proper TCMA circles.

No it is laughed at because it makes wild claims it cannot substantiate!

Not one fighter has attributed any of his success to qigong and China is not producing any good fighters that claim it. As I said previously, even if there were one or two that I am not aware of, it is way too small a sample to have any statistical meaning.

If it were a successful means of accomplishing ANYTHING other than simple health, which many other activities also accomplish, there would be SUBSTANTIAL evidence of it and not simplistic claims that demonstrate absolutely NOTHING!!!

[Hendrik]

气功定义的重大历史失误

2012-07-12 10:14作者:张洪林来源:未知浏览: 181次我要评论(条)字号:大中小








　　通过中医最早的经典著作《黄帝内经》的记载，我们可以看到古人对气功本质及其概念的认识原本是很清楚的 ——气功的本质特征是调神的，不是练气的。气功是通过调神促使体内气机随之变得协调，达到防治疾病的目的。 用今天的话讲，气功是通过自我心理调整促使全身各系统生理功能协调。然而，流传了数千年的气功概念在50年 代被硬性地改换了内涵，从而导致气功的定义发生重大的失误。由于被改换的概念至今在气功领域产生着重大的影 响，并且成为出现伪气功的理论基石，同时也是广大的气功爱好者不能正确认识气功和识别伪气功的重要原因，所 以有必要将气功概念被改换、定义发生重大失误的过程做一简要介绍。

　　很多朋友可能还不知道，气功虽然有数千年历史，但是，数千年来，气功一直在民间流传，并没有当今“气功 ”这样一个统一的称呼。这类锻炼方法或因其强调姿势、呼吸、意念的不同，或因其来源于医、儒、道、佛、武之 差异等等，有很多称呼。例如导引、吐呐、行气、服气、坐忘、守神、炼丹、坐禅……追溯现代气功发展的历史， 前述各种各样称呼的锻炼方法最后被统称为“气功”，并得以在全国推广普及，有一位叫刘贵珍的先生在其中起了 决定性的作用。因此，理清刘贵珍先生的一些重要史实，对认识气功一词在50年代后被确定下来及其内涵衍变的 情况是很有帮助的。

　　刘贵珍，男，1920年生于中国河北省威县大寺庄，1945年参加工作，1956年开始担任北戴河气功 疗养院院长，1984年12月27日病逝。

　　刘贵珍在自己的著作中介绍：“我患有严重的胃溃疡病，长期胃病的折磨，又引起失眠。在解放区医疗条件较 差的情况下，经介绍跟本乡刘渡舟老师（一位农民）练内养功，诚心诚意地练了一百零二天，我的胃溃疡病好了， 其它症状也随之减轻。”刘贵珍学会内养功治好了自己的病后，又将这种方法教给别的患者，这些患者也获得疗效 。这个情况逐渐得到了邢台地委、唐山市委以及河北省卫生厅的重视和支持。后来，由河北省的卫生厅厅长组织， 他们在一起商定，将刘贵珍的锻炼方法和前述多种称呼的锻炼方法统一叫做气功。刘贵珍在他的著作中写到：“古 代流传下来的导引法、内养功、吐呐法、内功、深呼吸、静坐呼吸养生法等，虽然名称不同，均属于气功之前身。 ”又说：“‘气功’这个词概括了静坐、吐呐、导引、内功等修练方法。因为气功运用于防病、治病，故名为‘气 功疗法’。”

　　刘贵珍之所以选择‘气功’一词命名而没有选择其它词汇，是因为他所练的功法是以强调呼吸为特征的。这个 功法要求吸气后停住，然后再慢慢地呼气。如果用现在的眼光看，这个功法是要求练功人将注意力高度集中在自己 的呼吸上，用呼吸这一个念头取代其它杂念，使练功人的意识达到入静状态。换言之，呼吸方法仅仅是帮助入静的 手段，而不是本质。然而，极其遗憾的是，刘贵珍并没有认识到这一点。他在自己的代表作中写到：“为什么称它 为气功疗法呢？‘气’这个字在这里是代表呼吸的意思；‘功’字就是不断地调整呼吸和姿势的练习，也是俗语说 的要练得有‘功夫’，将这种气功疗法，经用医学观点加以整理研究，并且用到治疗疾病和保健上去，去掉以往的 迷信糟粕，因此称为气功疗法。”这是刘贵珍给气功下的定义。通过这个定义，我们可以清楚地看到刘贵珍是将呼 吸之气当作气功的本质特征了。这个定义以其呼吸之气的内涵，硬性地改换了古人调整心理的内涵，造成气功定义 出现第一次严重失误。

　　后来，河北省卫生厅委派刘贵珍前往北京，向卫生部汇报了气功。这个由民间发掘出来的不吃药不打针就能治 病的方法，自然也引起了卫生部的重视。1955年 12月19日，在中国中医研究院成立典礼的大会上，国家卫生部对刘贵珍总结传播气功的事迹给予表彰，同时给 他颁发了奖状和奖金。多家新闻机构对刘贵珍本人及气功疗法进行了报导。从而使刘贵珍及气功疗法在全国的影响 迅速扩大。全国各地办气功班，还有许多人涌向河北省参加刘贵珍举办的培训班。在全国范围内，第一次掀起一个 轰轰烈烈的学练气功的热潮。1956年，国家投资在北戴河创建了第一个气功疗养院，刘贵珍出任院长。同年， 国家主席刘少奇同志专门请刘贵珍同志来北京汇报和传授气功，对他研究气功给予高度评价。此后，中央一些领导 同志常请他去教气功。陈毅同志学会气功后，高血压病明显见效。林伯渠同志学会练功后，高兴地说：“你为老人 找了个治病强身、延年益寿的好办法。”谢觉哉同志则为刘贵珍的《气功疗法实践》一书提词：“气功疗法，人人 可行，不花钱，不费事，可以却病，可以强身，可以全生，可以延年。”此书先后印刷11次，发行百万册。刘贵 珍的重要著作还被译成日、英、印尼等文字，发行于国外。至此，刘贵珍以很快的速度成为当时气功领域最有影响 的权威人物。当然，他改换错了的气功概念也因此传向了国内外。

　　针对刘贵珍在前人基础上确定的“气功”这个名称，以及他给气功下的定义，国内的一些著名养生专家当时就 提出了许多不同的看法。如蒋维乔先生指出：“现在大家都称‘气功’，其实这个名称并不妥当，不过已经通行， 我也只有从俗了。在古时叫养生法。”前上海气功疗养所所长陈涛指出：“气功疗法这个‘气’字如果把它看成是 人体所固有的神经系统活动的各种现象，那就容易理解，如果硬说是天地的玄气在人体内起作用，那就无法从神秘 的外衣中解脱出来，成为广大人民的一种治病养生的方法。”李立知先生更明确地写到：“常常有人顾名思义地把 气功理解为练气，于是专在‘气’字上用功夫，以致发生了各种流弊：比如有的初学的人，为了‘练气’就强力地 做深呼吸或憋气下沉，结果不但影响入静，反而产生气闷和胸腹疼痛等弊病。所以要进行正确的呼吸只是为了达到 入静的一种手段，而不是为了‘练气’。”

　　情况正如李立知先生预言的那样，后来学习气功的人不仅将气功之“气”理解为呼吸之气，而且真的顾名思义 ，逐渐将气功之“气”理解为人体元气。尤其在文化大革命中气功被禁锢十年，于1977年复出后，几乎所有学 练气功的人都不知不觉地望字生义，将气功之气理解为元气、内气。面对这种情况，刘贵珍又对气功定义进行了新 的解释，他在修改后的代表作中写到：“依据古典理论，将这种以培育正气为主的自我锻炼方法命名为‘气功’， 我们认为，气功的‘气’不仅包括呼吸之气，也包括人体的正气。”“我们把培育元气的健身方法称之为气功，这 充分体现了祖国医学传统理论的观点。”同书还写到：“气功之‘气’，主要指真气（元气）而言。”从刘贵珍对 气功新的定义中，可以清楚地看到，他对气功概念的内涵由当初的呼吸之气改为人体内的正气、元气。显而易见， 这种变化是纯思辨演绎的结果。他使气功定义发生了第二次失误。这个失误为“内气外放”——外气现象的产生奠 定了理论基础

[Hendrik]

qigong process is similar to the recipe of the Drug.

One must not practice anything without a long term observation. One must has every process cleary layout and detail explain, failing to do so could endanger the practioner.


using visualization is a trouble for those without foundation. leading Qi without a preparation is trouble.

So, take Qi as what it is, nothing more nothing less. and not get into magical delusion and guru following. ask the Guru, where he learn the art, how long? usually, one needs at least ten years intensive training of every day 2 to 4 hours to become good at it. anyone who keep qouting chinese philosophy without practice tract record and legitimate teacher is troube which one must avoid.

[Scott R. Brown]

A few of the teachings from the ORGINAL Qi Gong text:


Nei Yeh

One

The vital essence of all things:
It is this that brings them to life.
It generates the five grains below
And becomes the constellated stars above.
When flowing amid the heavens and the earth
We call it ghostly and numinous.
When stored within the chests of human beings,
We call them sages.

Two

Therefore this vital energy is:
Bright! - as if ascending from the heavens;
Dark! - as if entering an abyss;
Vast! - as if dwelling in an ocean;
Lofty! - as if dwelling on a mountain peak.
Therefore this vital energy
Cannot be halted by force,
Yet can be secured by inner power [Te].
Cannot be summoned by speech,
Yet can be welcomed by awareness.
Reverently hold onto it and do not lose it:
This is called "developing inner power."
When inner power develops and wisdom emerges,
The myriad things will, to the last one, be grasped

Three

All the forms of the mind
Are naturally infused and filled with it [the vital essence],
Are naturally generated and developed it.
It is lost
Inevitably because of sorrow, happiness, joy, anger, desire, and profit-seeking.
If you are able to cast off sorrow, happiness, joy, anger, desire and profit-seeking,
Your mind will just revert to equanimity.
The true condition of the mind
Is that it finds calmness beneficial and, by it, attains repose.
[B]Do not disturb it, do not disrupt it
And harmony will naturally develop.

Eleven

When your body is not aligned,
The inner power will not come.
When you are not tranquil within,
Your mind will not be ordered.
Align your body, assist the inner power,
Then it will gradually come on its own.

Twenty-five

The vitality of all people
Inevitably comes from their peace of mind.
When anxious, you loose this guiding thread;
When angry, you lose this basic point.
When you are anxious or sad, pleased or angry,
The Way has no place to settle.
Love and desire: still them!
Folly and disturbance: correct them!
Do not push it! do not pull it!
Good fortune will naturally return to you,
And that Way will naturally come to you
So you can rely on and take counsel from it.
If you are tranquil then you will attain it;
If you are agitated then you will lose it.

Twenty-six

That mysterious vital energy within the mind:
One moment it arrives, the next it departs.
So fine, there is nothing within it;
So vast, there is nothing outside it.
We lose it
Because of the harm caused by mental agitation.
When the mind can hold on to tranquility,
The Way will become naturally stabilized.
For people who have attained the Way
It permeates their pores and saturates their hair.
Within their chest, they remain unvanquished.
[Follow] this Way of restricting sense-desires
And the myriad things will not cause you harm.

[GlennR]

815 and still going strong.... keep going boys!

[Scott R. Brown]

815 and still going strong.... keep going boys!

BTW, Is Shaolin-do for real?

[Robinhood]

At first I thought you just had a different perspective, so I treated you accordingly, but I can see now you truly are as dumb as a door!

Lol I think your chi has stalled, I don't know why when someone does not believe your view you need to get all frustrated.

What is you don't like, that someone has something you don't, so you try to disprove them with words, I know what I have, I don't need you to confirm it, you are the one who does not seem to know what it is, why can't you be the one that is delusional.

At least I use my chi all the time, you just think it does not excist. Maybe you never learned how to use it, but you have to build it first.

You haven't proven to me that you know what chi is, you only quote sayings by others.

You have your view, I have mine, but at least mine is being used, and yours is just talk.

If I am the door, you are the mat.

[Robinhood]

you misunderstand - I have "seen it", I used to "use it" with patients; I then realized what it was, as well as it's limitations and the intrinsic self-delusory aspect thereof; I used to be like you; I moved on; your problem is that you are too comfortable, thinking that you can do that, when in fact it's a fiction; unfortunately, you have no objective methodology against which to rebalance your delusory notions of what you think that you are doing;

I'm not saying you don't see things, and I'm not saying that what you see doesn't correlate to something that's actually there - it's just that what you think you are seeing isn't really what you are seeing; and since you have no objective methodology against which to compare it, you have no capacity to move beyond it;

the biggest clue, the one that you are missing, are your feelings of satisfaction and certainty; these are the most dangerous things imaginable; but since you don't treat people professionally, you can enjoy your amateur status without having to worry about it;

I don't "know it all"; however, based on my personal and professional experiences, i know a heck of a lot more than you do;

Well you might use it for healing, but I not interested in using it for healing, otherwise I would be on a healing forum.

I use it all the time, it works fine, that is what counts.

Having chi, and using it in MA, is a big step, and not a given, a lot of people have built up chi, but can't use it effectivally in MA.

I am not worried about it, but you seem to be. Just because people pay you does not mean you are worth it, most con artists make the most money.

Its results that count, not what you think you know.

[Vajramusti]

819 posts--on this repetitive mostly irrelevant thread-majority of participants are not even wingchunners- apparent refugees from the drouth on other forums.Onward through the fog or quasi ether.

[Scott R. Brown]

Lol I think your chi has stalled, I don't know why when someone does not believe your view you need to get all frustrated.

What is you don't like, that someone has something you don't, so you try to disprove them with words, I know what I have, I don't need you to confirm it, you are the one who does not seem to know what it is, why can't you be the one that is delusional.

At least I use my chi all the time, you just think it does not excist. Maybe you never learned how to use it, but you have to build it first.

You haven't proven to me that you know what chi is, you only quote sayings by others.

You have your view, I have mine, but at least mine is being used, and yours is just talk.

If I am the door, you are the mat.

No, the problem is you are a bit psycho...it is impossible to have a discussion with someone who constantly redefines the discussion according to their own fantasy life .....which makes it difficult to have a meaningful discussion with you.

[Scott R. Brown]

819 posts--on this repetitive mostly irrelevant thread-majority of participants are not even wingchunners- apparent refugees from the drouth on other forums.Onward through the fog or quasi ether.

Most discussions on just about any BB are meaningless.

Wingchunners have not been granted sole control of the worlds qi discussions by the Taoverse Deity.

The op didn't state only wingchunners need apply!:p

[Robinhood]

No, the problem is you are a bit psycho...it is impossible to have a discussion with someone who constantly redefines the discussion according to their own fantasy life .....which makes it difficult to have a meaningful discussion with you.


No, you keep going off on your religious stuff, don't try to blame me.

You just like to argue with everyone no matter what they say.


I don't want to talk about past priests, just present actual experience, if you have any.

[wenshu]

majority of participants are not even wingchunners- apparent refugees from the drouth on other forums.

I believe the technical terminology is "slumming it".

[Robinhood]

Bored people with nothing better to do , trying to cause trouble somewhere else, pushing their same narrow dog-ma view of martial arts.

[Fa Xing]

Bored people with nothing better to do , trying to cause trouble somewhere else, pushing their same narrow dog-ma view of martial arts.

Did I just fall into the twilight zone or were you being self-descriptive?

[taai gihk yahn]

Just because people pay you does not mean you are worth it, most con artists make the most money.

Its results that count, not what you think you know.

lol - the reason people pay me is because I get results, derrr; I actually have a policy that if I treat you and you don't get you better, you don't have to pay; so much for ur con artist theory;

and step!

[Scott R. Brown]

lol - the reason people pay me is because I get results, derrr; I actually have a policy that if I treat you and you don't get you better, you don't have to pay; so much for ur con artist theory;

and step!

More like slip and fall!!:eek:

[Vajramusti]

Badal diner pagla hawa.

[GlennR]

BTW, Is Shaolin-do for real?

I stand in awe..........

[Vajramusti]

I stand in awe..........

----

awe and then some- otoh may be dim sum

[guy b.]

u can also do this via Pilates, Feldenkries, Alexander Technique, yoga and others - it is not unique to qigong; it's just another pathway; altho I will say that the standing practice is pretty uncommon, perhaps even "unique";

I wouldn't be surprised if you can gain the same control through other methods although I have no experience of the ones you mention. It is pretty self explanatory after all. Saying that standing practice is unique to qigong doesn't inspire confidence in the alternatives suggested however.

[guy b.]

Does anyone have a coherent theory of qi and its relation to whole body strength?

[nasmedicine]

Badal diner pagla hawa.

LOL good one.

[taai gihk yahn]

I wouldn't be surprised if you can gain the same control through other methods although I have no experience of the ones you mention. It is pretty self explanatory after all. Saying that standing practice is unique to qigong doesn't inspire confidence in the alternatives suggested however.

what I meant was that the way in which Taoist practice does standing is different; for example, in yoga u had mountain pose, which wud b the closest equivalent, but is very different in many ways; but ultimately can get u to the same place, I believe; in Alexander Technique, u practice standing with similar awareness, but within a different overall paradigm; so they do sum kind of standing, just how they do it isn't the same; but ultimately I think the different methods enable the same kind of core realignment we were talking about originally

[Scott R. Brown]

No, you keep going off on your religious stuff, don't try to blame me.

You just like to argue with everyone no matter what they say.


I don't want to talk about past priests, just present actual experience, if you have any.

The principles/characteristics of water does not change just because one person drinks the water and another washes his car with it.

So it is with qi. Spiritual use or martial use, the principles of qi remain unchanged!

Your discomfort with the the spiritual references and misunderstanding of the mutual application of the references indicate your limited understanding. Regardless of your perceived success in using qi for martial purposes, one does not need to understand the principles of water in order to drink it, or wash their car with it.

Water follows its own principles whether we understand them or not, so it is with qi. Thus, having success utilizing something does not equal an understanding of it.

[Robinhood]

The principles/characteristics of water does not change just because one person drinks the water and another washes his car with it.

So it is with qi. Spiritual use or martial use, the principles of qi remain unchanged!

Your discomfort with the the spiritual references and misunderstanding of the mutual application of the references indicate your limited understanding. Regardless of your perceived success in using qi for martial purposes, one does not need to understand the principles of water in order to drink it, or wash their car with it.

Water follows its own principles whether we understand them or not, so it is with qi. Thus, having success utilizing something does not equal an understanding of it.

I would rather follow someone who knows how to use something, than someone who thinks he knows what something is but can't use it.

Sounds like You are saying that you know what water is but don't know how to drink it, who cares what you think you know about something, its what you can do with it that shows you are on track.

Like I said before, if I was interested in the spiritual side, I wouldn't be on a kung fu forum.

[Scott R. Brown]

I would rather follow someone who knows how to use something, than someone who thinks he knows what something is but can't use it.

Sounds like You are saying that you know what water is but don't know how to drink it, who cares what you think you know about something, its what you can do with it that shows you are on track.

Like I said before, if I was interested in the spiritual side, I wouldn't be on a kung fu forum.

Boy, everything just goes right over your head, doesn't it?


Can you point to ONE person who has won in the ring following your method?

If not, how can you say you are following someone who knows how to use it?

[Robinhood]

Boy, everything just goes right over your head, doesn't it?


Can you point to ONE person who has won in the ring following your method?

If not, how can you say you are following someone who knows how to use it?


Lol. I don't look at sport fighting as a reference for what works, it is just an organized set of rules that favor different training methods that usually favor conditioning ,I would call it more of a tough man competition, put together to make money for the organizer of the events, like human **** fighting with rules.


I can see the skill level improving in sport fighting, so in the future I'm sure you will start to see more internal showing up in sport fighting. It is probably already in some of the ground work of skilled practitioners.

[Scott R. Brown]

Lol. I don't look at sport fighting as a reference for what works, it is just an organized set of rules that favor different training methods that usually favor conditioning ,I would call it more of a tough man competition, put together to make money for the organizer of the events, like human **** fighting with rules.


I can see the skill level improving in sport fighting, so in the future I'm sure you will start to see more internal showing up in sport fighting. It is probably already in some of the ground work of skilled practitioners.

Got it! You are a theoretical fighter, with no real way to measure your skills other than your own subjective impressions, just like all the other qi people!

[GlennR]

Lol. I don't look at sport fighting as a reference for what works, it is just an organized set of rules that favor different training methods that usually favor conditioning ,I would call it more of a tough man competition, put together to make money for the organizer of the events, like human **** fighting with rules.


I can see the skill level improving in sport fighting, so in the future I'm sure you will start to see more internal showing up in sport fighting. It is probably already in some of the ground work of skilled practitioners.

Wrong in so many ways

[anerlich]

Lol. I don't look at sport fighting as a reference for what works, it is just an organized set of rules that favor different training methods that usually favor conditioning ,I would call it more of a tough man competition, put together to make money for the organizer of the events, like human **** fighting with rules.


I can see the skill level improving in sport fighting, so in the future I'm sure you will start to see more internal showing up in sport fighting. It is probably already in some of the ground work of skilled practitioners.

Sport fighting has been around for several thousand years in one form or another, so, yeah, you'd expect to see some improvement :rolleyes:

In my experience IMA teachers are no less keen to make the big bucks than anyone else, so I don't see why they're not already laying waste to the current inferior crop of sportfighters and taking all the cash. That is, if their stuff works the way they claim it does ...

Are boxing, Muay Thai, judo and wrestling, even the world taiji push hands championships, REALLY all to be lumped into "human ****fighting"? There is a fairly healthy tradition of sportfighting in OMA and TCMA going back centuries also. Do you really want to blow all that off as well?

I assume you are talking MMA, and quoting that other genius on the subject, John McCain.

Perhaps you could educate us as to which of the current crop are using "internal" in their ground fighting? Or perhaps not?

[Scott R. Brown]

At least he finally, circuitously, admitted he lives in a fantasyland of unicorns and faeries!

[Robinhood]

Got it! You are a theoretical fighter, with no real way to measure your skills other than your own subjective impressions, just like all the other qi people!


Lol Ya, I can only test my skill in real time, against real people that actually train in MA, while you are the theoretical fighter, who thinks other people are testing for him.

When I actually see a Internal guy in sport fighting, I will see a test, but so far I only see mostly external guys, which for now the rules favor external training. Since you don't know what internal is anyway, you won't understand the difference.

But I am sure their are aspects of internal in a lot of fighters, Like I said the quality just in the last couple of years has improved greatly, internal will show more and more.

Now I will let you get back to your arm chair training, and trying to sound like you know something worth while.

[Robinhood]

Sport fighting has been around for several thousand years in one form or another, so, yeah, you'd expect to see some improvement :rolleyes:

In my experience IMA teachers are no less keen to make the big bucks than anyone else, so I don't see why they're not already laying waste to the current inferior crop of sportfighters and taking all the cash. That is, if their stuff works the way they claim it does ...

Are boxing, Muay Thai, judo and wrestling, even the world taiji push hands championships, REALLY all to be lumped into "human ****fighting"? There is a fairly healthy tradition of sportfighting in OMA and TCMA going back centuries also. Do you really want to blow all that off as well?

I assume you are talking MMA, and quoting that other genius on the subject, John McCain.

Perhaps you could educate us as to which of the current crop are using "internal" in their ground fighting? Or perhaps not?

Like you have any idea what it was thousands of years ago, have a video, I would say it is more like it is started over, not carred on. But I am sure that old ones didn't have all these rules, and was more like real fighting not sport fighting.

If you can't figure out what differences rules make, you don't know much.

I am sure it is not a crop of ground fighters, but more individual attainment.

[Happy Tiger]

Lol. I don't look at sport fighting as a reference for what works, it is just an organized set of rules that favor different training methods that usually favor conditioning ,I would call it more of a tough man competition, put together to make money for the organizer of the events, like human **** fighting with rules.


I can see the skill level improving in sport fighting, so in the future I'm sure you will start to see more internal showing up in sport fighting. It is probably already in some of the ground work of skilled practitioners.
I used to feel that way about sport fighting. I used to say things like,' Ving Tsun isn't sutable for the octogon because ours has no rules.' After years in both security/bruiser roles and a few in NHB free fighting, I know now that's really not true. There's almost always rules of some kind in combat. They are called 'conditions'. The modern octogon is pretty fair, with restrictions of scope to both ground and stand up fighters.
I think that may be one of the big diferences between the modern VT fighter (generalizing here, big time) and the fighter from '1850' Those old timers were internally developed/aware to a freaky high degree and as well, hard trainin', hard fightin' dudes. They were testing all the time (so called death matches,their version of the octogon, which were only called death matches because it was agreed if, in the unlikely event someone actually did die, that no revenge or law would be sought) and actual life and death struggles.

[Scott R. Brown]

Lol Ya, I can only test my skill in real time, against real people that actually train in MA, while you are the theoretical fighter, who thinks other people are testing for him.

When I actually see a Internal guy in sport fighting, I will see a test, but so far I only see mostly external guys, which for now the rules favor external training. Since you don't know what internal is anyway, you won't understand the difference.

But I am sure their are aspects of internal in a lot of fighters, Like I said the quality just in the last couple of years has improved greatly, internal will show more and more.

Now I will let you get back to your arm chair training, and trying to sound like you know something worth while.

Wait a second...I thought, "I don't look at sport fighting as a reference for what works"!! Except when it is convenient for a BB argument?

Now you say you qi training allows you to be competitive against REAL MA who train in REAL time? If you are training with others you are following rules of engagement in order to avoid the risk of serious injury. This makes it closer to sport than reality!

And just how do you measure your magical qi against non-magicians? How do you know it is your magic and not your skill that is the measure of the difference when you only have a subjective measurement scale?

Okay, now it is clear you are Trolling!

You even consider yourself an authority on the training of people whom you don't know!:rolleyes:

[Robinhood]

I used to feel that way about sport fighting. I used to say things like,' Ving Tsun isn't sutable for the octogon because ours has no rules.' After years in both security/bruiser roles and a few in NHB free fighting, I know now that's really not true. There's almost always rules of some kind in combat. They are called 'conditions'. The modern octogon is pretty fair, with restrictions of scope to both ground and stand up fighters.
I think that may be one of the big diferences between the modern VT fighter (generalizing here, big time) and the fighter from '1850' Those old timers were internally developed/aware to a freaky high degree and as well, hard trainin', hard fightin' dudes. They were testing all the time (so called death matches,their version of the octogon, which were only called death matches because it was agreed if, in the unlikely event someone actually did die, that no revenge or law would be sought) and actual life and death struggles.

I was not talking about WC, I am talking general internal application, styles are just learning tools, don't dwell on the tool.

[Scott R. Brown]

I was not talking about WC, I am talking general internal application, styles are just learning tools, don't dwell on the tool.

Hmmmmm........I am pretty sure I said that!!:rolleyes:

[Robinhood]

Hmmmmm........I am pretty sure I said that!!:rolleyes:

No, I just said that, .........

and I have said it many times before ! :p

[xinyidizi]

One wouldn’t expect people on a non-Chinese forum like this to know much about the more advanced Daoist xiulian methods but since this is mainly a TCMA website, it’s disappointing to see many people who claim that they have practiced TCMA for years or even decades haven’t practiced neigong at all or that their knowledge of even the very elementary levels of neigong can’t go any further than theories and many are still wondering whether qi exists!

The general level of teaching TCMA in China is also not very high and I assume many TCMA students in China also won’t get a proper neigong training; nevertheless the discussions here make me think that in some cases something even much worse has happened in handing down TCMA outside of China.

[Happy Tiger]

I was not talking about WC, I am talking general internal application, styles are just learning tools, don't dwell on the tool.
good advice...don't dwell on the tool.:):D

[Scott R. Brown]

good advice...don't dwell on the tool.:):D

;)

.....step

[taai gihk yahn]

One wouldn’t expect people on a non-Chinese forum like this to know much about the more advanced Daoist xiulian methods but since this is mainly a TCMA website, it’s disappointing to see many people who claim that they have practiced TCMA for years or even decades haven’t practiced neigong at all or that their knowledge of even the very elementary levels of neigong can’t go any further than theories and many are still wondering whether qi exists!

The general level of teaching TCMA in China is also not very high and I assume many TCMA students in China also won’t get a proper neigong training; nevertheless the discussions here make me think that in some cases something even much worse has happened in handing down TCMA outside of China.
but, of course, unlike everyone else here, YOU have "da r3alz" :rolleyes::rolleyes:

(I think you must be about the 5th one today...)

[anerlich]

Like you have any idea what it was thousands of years ago, have a video, I would say it is more like it is started over, not carred on. But I am sure that old ones didn't have all these rules, and was more like real fighting not sport fighting.

If you can't figure out what differences rules make, you don't know much.

I am sure it is not a crop of ground fighters, but more individual attainment.

It's pretty well documented that wrestling matches have been going on in a variety of regions since before Christ.

The Pankration (Ancient Greek MMA) is also well documented, as is the history of boxing and judo. There is plenty of film of matches going well back into early last century.

Did I say rules didn't make a difference? No. Learn to read.

Which individuals (which is what I asked you for) have made the leap to internal then? Roger Gracie, perhaps? From the most famous ground fighting family in history? If there was anything there, wouldn't he have had access to it?

GSP?

BJ Penn?

[Scott R. Brown]

but, of course, unlike everyone else here, YOU have "da r3alz" :rolleyes::rolleyes:

(I think you must be about the 5th one today...)

The funny thing is, you are probably the only one here who has trained under a true master. Everyone else trained under nameless whoevers.

Except for me of course, who was specially appointed by the Taoverse Deity to be master of all I survey.

[Robinhood]

It's pretty well documented that wrestling matches have been going on in a variety of regions since before Christ.

The Pankration (Ancient Greek MMA) is also well documented, as is the history of boxing and judo. There is plenty of film of matches going well back into early last century.

Did I say rules didn't make a difference? No. Learn to read.

Which individuals (which is what I asked you for) have made the leap to internal then? Roger Gracie, perhaps? From the most famous ground fighting family in history? If there was anything there, wouldn't he have had access to it?

GSP?

BJ Penn?

I'm sure if someone was using it they wouldn't be telling you.

[Robinhood]

Wait a second...I thought, "I don't look at sport fighting as a reference for what works"!! Except when it is convenient for a BB argument?

Now you say you qi training allows you to be competitive against REAL MA who train in REAL time? If you are training with others you are following rules of engagement in order to avoid the risk of serious injury. This makes it closer to sport than reality!

And just how do you measure your magical qi against non-magicians? How do you know it is your magic and not your skill that is the measure of the difference when you only have a subjective measurement scale?

Okay, now it is clear you are Trolling!

You even consider yourself an authority on the training of people whom you don't know!:rolleyes:


Your the troll, trying to pretend you know something about chi, anyone that has put in some time developing chi can see right through your BS. :p

[GlennR]

I'm sure if someone was using it they wouldn't be telling you.

Thats convenient isnt it.

So it happening before our very eyes and we dont even know????

[taai gihk yahn]

I'm sure if someone was using it they wouldn't be telling you.


Thats convenient isnt it.

So it happening before our very eyes and we dont even know????

I'm telling you, the entire history of IMA falls under what I call the "Snuffaluf***us Effect"...

[Robinhood]

I'm telling you, the entire history of IMA falls under what I call the "Snuffaluf***us Effect"...

You don't get around much ? do ya ?

[taai gihk yahn]

You don't get around much ? do ya ?

actually, I do, quite a bit; I've met / touched hands w quite a few skilled "internal people", and am well aware of the parameters associated w the skill set;

[anerlich]

I'm sure if someone was using it they wouldn't be telling you.

For fear of embarrassment, no doubt.

Secret techniques only work in the minds of basement dwellers and fantasists.

In the real world, with titles, kudos, national pride and prizemoney on the line, the winners have to use everything they have to win. No "holding back of secret techniques for use in life and death situations" when your career is on the line.

Once a technique or methodology out there, its "supremacy" doesn't last long, people find ways to counter it, and then there is an escalation of counters to counters, counters to counters to counters, etc.

You can't keep your best stuff under a bushel in a high level contest. And once it's out there, people are going to find ways to deal with it.

Once again, I've yet to meet an internal stylist who doesn't want to get rich. If that stuff worked the way you claim, people would be winning professional fights, giving private lessons at $1000 an hour, and putting on lucrative shows in Vegas with it.

If you are continually disappointed with the naysayers and skeptics, winning a few high level pro fights would be about the best possible way to shut them up. I'd be moderately impressed if one of you guys could even hold your own in a novice level MMA comp using the dreaded "internal".

But, this ain't ever going to happen, is it?

[GlennR]

You don't get around much ? do ya ?

http://www.videoscache.com/supertramp-dreamer-video-lyrics/2448/

[Happy Tiger]

One wouldn’t expect people on a non-Chinese forum like this to know much about the more advanced Daoist xiulian methods but since this is mainly a TCMA website, it’s disappointing to see many people who claim that they have practiced TCMA for years or even decades haven’t practiced neigong at all or that their knowledge of even the very elementary levels of neigong can’t go any further than theories and many are still wondering whether qi exists!

The general level of teaching TCMA in China is also not very high and I assume many TCMA students in China also won’t get a proper neigong training; nevertheless the discussions here make me think that in some cases something even much worse has happened in handing down TCMA outside of China.
Racism is cool. Just like Chinese are bad drivers and white men can't jump.
I don't know why white folk even bother trying to learn kung fu.

[anerlich]

Originally Posted by xinyidizi
One wouldn’t expect people on a non-Chinese forum like this to know much about the more advanced Daoist xiulian methods but since this is mainly a TCMA website, it’s disappointing to see many people who claim that they have practiced TCMA for years or even decades haven’t practiced neigong at all or that their knowledge of even the very elementary levels of neigong can’t go any further than theories and many are still wondering whether qi exists!

The general level of teaching TCMA in China is also not very high and I assume many TCMA students in China also won’t get a proper neigong training; nevertheless the discussions here make me think that in some cases something even much worse has happened in handing down TCMA outside of China.


Racism is cool. Just like Chinese are bad drivers and white men can't jump.
I don't know why white folk even bother trying to learn kung fu.

So there's no decent neigong teaching to be found outside China or within it.

That's may be true but not in the way xinyidizi meant.

Maybe his stuff is only available in his own private Idaho.

[guy b.]

it’s disappointing to see many people who claim that they have practiced TCMA for years or even decades haven’t practiced neigong at all or that their knowledge of even the very elementary levels of neigong can’t go any further than theories and many are still wondering whether qi exists!

Many people on this thread say they have practiced neigong and who am I (or you) to disbelieve their claims? I am sure that they have done so in the vast majority of cases.

This is not the core reason for the thread however; blindly performing a routine and learning dogma is not equivalent to understanding the reasons for particular routines and having a coherent and testable theory of what they are supposed to achieve. It is this that is the motivation for the thread. Nobody is asking if qi exists. The question is what do you think qi is, and what is the coherent theory you base this belief upon. If you do not have this then you are in the category of a religious believer, not a practical technician.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yep, its a bad one folks
http://bloggingblue.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/train-wreck.jpg

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://ants.planet.ee/trap/i%20like%20where%20this%20thread%20is%20going.jpg

[guy b.]

Which individuals (which is what I asked you for) have made the leap to internal then? Roger Gracie, perhaps? From the most famous ground fighting family in history? If there was anything there, wouldn't he have had access to it?

"ju" or "jiu" is internal. Typically sport arts get there the direct route of fighting using correct principles while completely exhausted. This is generally much quicker than the traditional method.

[anerlich]

"ju" or "jiu" is internal.

"Soft" or "gentle". Never heard that particular translation, or of a relationship with qi, in a Jiu Jitsu context.


Typically sport arts get there the direct route of fighting using correct principles while completely exhausted.

You don't need to get exhausted to roll with technique rather than strength. "Flow rolling". I do it several times a week.


This is generally much quicker than the traditional method.

What is the "traditional method"?

I've been training Jiu Jitsu for about twelve years, been to seminars with some of the best on the planet, and watched gigabytes of video. Still waiting for "internal" to be mentioned.

Ooops ... I remember Tim Cartmell being quoted as saying he believes Jiu Jitsu is internal.

[SimonM]

Ooops ... I remember Tim Cartmell being quoted as saying he believes Jiu Jitsu is internal.

If internal = redirectional then Jiujutsu definitely qualifies. If it means not-influenced-by-foreigners not so much. If it means magical with larping then it applies almost never. :D

[YouKnowWho]

If internal = redirectional then Jiujutsu definitely qualifies.

I'll say, internal = borrow force (A + B > A). The "redirectional" is just too conservative.

[taai gihk yahn]

Ooops ... I remember Tim Cartmell being quoted as saying he believes Jiu Jitsu is internal.

yeah, but, I mean, c'mon, what could HE possibly know...

[SimonM]

I'll say, internal = borrow force (A + B > A). The "redirectional" is just too conservative.

I will consider the above a friendly amnendment. ;)

[YouKnowWho]

I will consider the above a friendly amnendment. ;)

Yes! It is.

Most "internal' guys just stop at "yielding". Not all "internal" guys go one step beyond into "borrowing force". As far as "borrow force", the Judo guys could do much better job than the Taiji guys.

[guy b.]

"Soft" or "gentle". Never heard that particular translation, or of a relationship with qi, in a Jiu Jitsu context.

What do you think qi is?


You don't need to get exhausted to roll with technique rather than strength. "Flow rolling". I do it several times a week.

Whoa there, not talking about using technique vs strength.


What is the "traditional method"?

Feeling it when not exhausted, usually accomplished through relaxed standing exercises, almost motion, relationship between mind and motion, stepping exercises, etc.


I've been training Jiu Jitsu for about twelve years, been to seminars with some of the best on the planet, and watched gigabytes of video. Still waiting for "internal" to be mentioned.

Ooops ... I remember Tim Cartmell being quoted as saying he believes Jiu Jitsu is internal.

I've been training jiu jitsu for a long time as well. It isn't taught, acknowledged, or even rationally understood in that art, but it does develop it well for those capable of learning by doing (maybe 1 in 5 people). I think this might contribute to why some people are never great at jiu jitsu despite time spent doing it and always remain journeymen at best.

Another crude method of getting it is standing in a fixed posture for very long periods of time until muscle fatigue and failure takes place. Again this only works for a minor proportion of people.

[anerlich]

What do you think qi is?

Not the same as "soft". Nor is "internal" the same as "soft", IMO. "Borrowing force" IMO is indeed a valid and high level concept, but IMO not something that requires more than physics, timing, and sensitivity. And, yes, competent judo and JJ guys usually have it. No latent energy unfelt by the masses is required.

Qi to me is the intrinsic energy that is manipulated in TCM ... or what William Gibson terms a consensual hallucination (to which I do not consent).

If you want to define qi as the use of leverage rather than strength, or softness, that's OK, but IMO the qi concept is not necessary or even particularly useful for maximally efficient and effective performance.


Whoa there, not talking about using technique vs strength.

We seem to be talking about different things, then.

All I feel when really exhausted in rolling is exhaustion. If I pull something off at that stage it's because I've used sound technique, proper positioning, sensitivity, timing and leverage. Not some sort of special energy cultivated somewhere else by means never talked about in the gym.


I've been training jiu jitsu for a long time as well. It isn't taught, acknowledged, or even rationally understood in that art,

Which is rather telling, I think. I'm not sure that "rational understanding" and "qi" have much to do with one another.


but it does develop it well for those capable of learning by doing (maybe 1 in 5 people). I think this might contribute to why some people are never great at jiu jitsu despite time spent doing it and always remain journeymen at best.

I can't really see that. I cannot accept there's some special quality that only 20% develop but the best never teach or discuss and by all evidence never even realise that it's there. The best BJJ teacher I train with regularly, John Will, remains a sceptic on the subject of qi. He is a stellar BJJ teacher, but never brings any of that stuff into his lessons.

How else do you learn a skill like BJJ other than doing?


some people are never great at jiu jitsu despite time spent doing it and always remain journeymen at best

That's true of just about any endeavour. But IMO that comes down to the 10000 hours of practice and other criteria discussed in Malcolm Gladwell's "Outliers" rather than secret energies never discussed.

I don't claim any particular talent, but IMO looking for a way to excel in BJJ other than directed practice of technique is to embark on a fool's errand.

[nasmedicine]

That's true of just about any endeavour. But IMO that comes down to the 10000 hours of practice and other criteria discussed in Malcolm Gladwell's "Outliers" rather than secret energies never discussed.

Excellent book! I would recommend everyone to read it.

[WC1277]

Not the same as "soft". Nor is "internal" the same as "soft", IMO. "Borrowing force" IMO is indeed a valid and high level concept, but IMO not something that requires more than physics, timing, and sensitivity. And, yes, competent judo and JJ guys usually have it. No latent energy unfelt by the masses is required.

Qi to me is the intrinsic energy that is manipulated in TCM ... or what William Gibson terms a consensual hallucination (to which I do not consent).

If you want to define qi as the use of leverage rather than strength, or softness, that's OK, but IMO the qi concept is not necessary or even particularly useful for maximally efficient and effective performance.



We seem to be talking about different things, then.

All I feel when really exhausted in rolling is exhaustion. If I pull something off at that stage it's because I've used sound technique, proper positioning, sensitivity, timing and leverage. Not some sort of special energy cultivated somewhere else by means never talked about in the gym.



Which is rather telling, I think. I'm not sure that "rational understanding" and "qi" have much to do with one another.



I can't really see that. I cannot accept there's some special quality that only 20% develop but the best never teach or discuss and by all evidence never even realise that it's there. The best BJJ teacher I train with regularly, John Will, remains a sceptic on the subject of qi. He is a stellar BJJ teacher, but never brings any of that stuff into his lessons.

How else do you learn a skill like BJJ other than doing?



That's true of just about any endeavour. But IMO that comes down to the 10000 hours of practice and other criteria discussed in Malcolm Gladwell's "Outliers" rather than secret energies never discussed.

I don't claim any particular talent, but IMO looking for a way to excel in BJJ other than directed practice of technique is to embark on a fool's errand.

I'll post it again.....

Qigong is just an exercise of any kind where a balance exists. Sil lim Tao has qigong in it and so does chi sau. It also is not something you 'visualize' but something you feel. A simple awareness of your own body and its limits and in turn it will reward you with being able to balance your extremes. WC in a lot of ways is Qigong in both action and testing. Your structure is only most efficient when you're aware of the limits of either the force you can take or the force you can give, etc.

Bottom line - you "feel" qigong when you're intent on recognizing it and involves no more effort on your part than awareness of your body and good posture. Period. It comes up your back from your Dan tien to the top of your head and then falls down like a waterfall back down to your Dan tien. Any power you exert comes from that collection. WC is already built off of it with a good straight back with the L4 and L5 aligned. Special breathing, visualization, special exercises are all BS! It's just good posture in motion, that's it. Everyone develops it every day to some degree.

[anerlich]

I'll post it again.....

Whatever. Not sure what it had to do with my post or why you needed to quote my post in full.


It comes up your back from your Dan tien to the top of your head and then falls down like a waterfall back down to your Dan tien. Any power you exert comes from that collection.

If you're saying you need awareness of the macrocosmic/microcosmic orbits of qi to "exert any power", I disagree. I doubt many powerlifters require it, nor Roger Gracie, nor did Mike Tyson.

And if you don't need it, it's arguable that it just gets in the way...


I'll post it again.....

Me too, since posting twice apparently increases legitimacy ....

"IMO the qi concept is not necessary or even particularly useful for maximally efficient and effective performance."

[WC1277]

Whatever. Not sure what it had to do with my post or why you needed to quote my post in full.



If you're saying you need awareness of the macrocosmic/microcosmic orbits of qi to "exert any power", I disagree. I doubt many powerlifters require it, nor Roger Gracie, nor did Mike Tyson.

And if you don't need it, it's arguable that it just gets in the way...



Me too, since posting twice apparently increases legitimacy ....

"IMO the qi concept is not necessary or even particularly useful for maximally efficient and effective performance."

No, what I'm saying is that I agree with you. It doesn't matter. It's already there no matter what and the most you can do is just be aware of it...... And, posture is important, that's it..... But thanks for being a smart a$$, you're usually good at that;)

[anerlich]

No, what I'm saying is that I agree with you. It doesn't matter. It's already there no matter what and the most you can do is just be aware of it...... And, posture is important, that's it.....

Fair enough.


But thanks for being a smart a$$, you're usually good at that

Shucks. Yeah, I do have some skillz :o

[guy b.]

Not the same as "soft". Nor is "internal" the same as "soft", IMO. "Borrowing force" IMO is indeed a valid and high level concept, but IMO not something that requires more than physics, timing, and sensitivity. And, yes, competent judo and JJ guys usually have it. No latent energy unfelt by the masses is required.

Why do you think that qi has something to do with latent energy unfelt by the masses?


All I feel when really exhausted in rolling is exhaustion. If I pull something off at that stage it's because I've used sound technique, proper positioning, sensitivity, timing and leverage. Not some sort of special energy cultivated somewhere else by means never talked about in the gym.

Special energy?


Which is rather telling, I think. I'm not sure that "rational understanding" and "qi" have much to do with one another.

I guess it really depends who you ask.

[anerlich]

Why do you think that qi has something to do with latent energy unfelt by the masses?

Really? Read some of the earlier posts on this thread and tell me that isn't the way some people portray it.


I've been training jiu jitsu for a long time as well. It isn't taught, acknowledged, or even rationally understood in that art, but it does develop it well for those capable of learning by doing (maybe 1 in 5 people). I think this might contribute to why some people are never great at jiu jitsu despite time spent doing it and always remain journeymen at best.

Another crude method of getting it is standing in a fixed posture for very long periods of time until muscle fatigue and failure takes place. Again this only works for a minor proportion of people.


Special energy?

What is the "it" I am supposed to get from rolling when exhausted or doing horse or standing post training for long periods, then?


I guess it really depends who you ask.

Which high level jiu jitsu practitioners would you suggest I ask? I'm going to a seminar with JJ Machado on July 28. Is he one of the people I should ask, and if so what questions should I ask him?

[guy b.]

Really? Read some of the earlier posts on this thread and tell me that isn't the way some people portray it.

There are a lot of people looking for some kind of mysticism or secret super power from martial arts I suppose. A rational person knows that this is pretty unlikely and so tends to dismiss the whole of qigung as quackery which is a shame.


What is the "it" I am supposed to get from rolling when exhausted or doing horse or standing post training for long periods, then?

From my practice of standing qigung I think (although obviously I don't know) that what is being trained is positive control of postural musculature.


Which high level jiu jitsu practitioners would you suggest I ask? I'm going to a seminar with JJ Machado on July 28. Is he one of the people I should ask, and if so what questions should I ask him?

I don't think that any jiu jitsu practitioners are the people to ask about this because they do not have specific methods for developing it, which is not to say that some do not have it (they do).

[anerlich]

I don't think that any jiu jitsu practitioners are the people to ask about this because they do not have specific methods for developing it, which is not to say that some do not have it (they do).

The obvious next questions are:

Who has it? Does every Mundials/ADCC winner have it, or are there / have there been some that don't? Does Roger Gracie have it? Rickson? Marcelo Garcia? Eddie Bravo? Jeff Glover? Robert Drysdale?

JJ Machado?

If those that have it don't talk about it and don't have specific methods to develop it, who does know about these things and why aren't they telling the JJ guys themselves, or if they are telling them why aren't the JJ guys letting anyone else know (unless non-disclosure agreements are involved :p)?

Are youreally trying to tell me that you can see a quality or attribute in top level JJ people that they can't or won't identify publicly, but you can?

[Wayfaring]

Which high level jiu jitsu practitioners would you suggest I ask? I'm going to a seminar with JJ Machado on July 28. Is he one of the people I should ask, and if so what questions should I ask him?

Yes.

Questions:

1) When Rickson talks about connecting to your opponent, what does he mean?
2) How many reps would you say you've put in over the years of the standard techniques? 10,000? 50,000? 100,000? 1,000,000?

And if he trains with everyone which he still has the cardio to, let us know how it goes ;)

[guy b.]

The obvious next questions are:

Who has it? Does every Mundials/ADCC winner have it, or are there / have there been some that don't? Does Roger Gracie have it? Rickson? Marcelo Garcia? Eddie Bravo? Jeff Glover? Robert Drysdale?

JJ Machado?

If those that have it don't talk about it and don't have specific methods to develop it, who does know about these things and why aren't they telling the JJ guys themselves, or if they are telling them why aren't the JJ guys letting anyone else know (unless non-disclosure agreements are involved :p)?

Are youreally trying to tell me that you can see a quality or attribute in top level JJ people that they can't or won't identify publicly, but you can?

I haven't rolled with many of those people so can't say. I have rolled with Roger but he is so far above my level in terms of skill that it is difficult to tell. What I have noticed is that I can do it myself, I know what it allows me to do, and I can feel something similar in some people that I train with, but not all.

If I had to guess I imagine that most top level bjj guys can do this, apart from maybe the most naturally athletic, explosive and fast because they might not often find themselves in a situation where they would stumble across it.

[GlennR]

Come on chaps...... nearly at 900, dont give up now!

[desertwingchun2]

My contribution ..... #892 :D ;)

[Robinhood]

Yes.

Questions:

1) When Rickson talks about connecting to your opponent, what does he mean?
2) How many reps would you say you've put in over the years of the standard techniques? 10,000? 50,000? 100,000? 1,000,000?

And if he trains with everyone which he still has the cardio to, let us know how it goes ;)


Connecting is usually a term used that is not literal, but has a deeper meaning, until you get it, it won't make much sense having it explained to you, just realize that if you have to ask, you don't have it.

My contribution # 893 :D

[anerlich]

Connecting is usually a term used that is not literal

Rickson told you that, did he?

Actually, connecting is usually a term that IS used literally, like most other terms.

Unless you like deliberate obfuscation or do TCMA, apparently.

7 ... 6 ... 5 ... 4 ...

[Scott R. Brown]

I am feeling more connected already.

[guy b.]

Dude, if you have to ask you simply don't understand.

[anerlich]

Dude, if you have to ask you simply don't understand.

And if you didn't understand, wouldn't you ask? How TF else would you find out? Dude?

[anerlich]

I'm not going to ask JJM to paraphrase Rickson. Try this instead:

http://jiujitsumania.com/technique/accelerated-learning/rickson-gracie-seminar-making-the-invisible-visible/

It's amusing that there are aikido and taiji (and no doubt, soon, Wing Chun as well on this thread) practitioners referencing this article on the interwebz and talking like they understand what Rickson is talking about better than he does himself ... :rolleyes:

[No_Know]

Looking at the link result recently put, I'd think connect refers to natural progression of action--be in the situation-don't force getting to a point. Feel them. Understand you. Move towards, that but it's not forced--it's a natural getting what you would like, keeping presence-of-mind, reducing the chances of failure, and keeping persistance. [The Kung-Fu of the Gracies of Brazil's use of Juijitsu reminds me of Chan Style T'ai Chi Ch'uan becomming Yang Style and Yang being sectioned-small body/frame--Jui~Jitsu done following precision it is an animal style...] Success is the Boa Constrictor--yielding persistance overcomes the desperate flailings of your hopeless meal, as it were-if you would. Know your goal. Keep on it. Keep on your opponent. Connect with your opponent. Make contact-feel your way through and read your opponent's desperation-which of the few ways you already know they can move are they about to try. Get there first--this is the constricting. Squeezing the options from them...

No_Know

[No_Know]

Thousandth post is where it's at...

When leveraging/connecting with the opponent might have to do with getting up and against the fulcrum--the technique happens when one gets to the zero mobility of an articulation. Success likliness increases as one approaches the places where their stuff can't turn good any more.

No_Know

[WC1277]

"When you make any movement, before the movement begins there is a short delay during which the body prepares by stabilising your lumbar spine using deep abdominal postural muscles. Normally you will not feel this ‘preparation’, but it is there and as your awareness increases you can feel it. As we said in the above paragraph, usage of postural muscles equates to usage of Qi. Thus any movement is preceded by activation of your Qi in the dantian.

Your body will not move till it is properly stabilised. This is important for fast moves, especially explosive fa-jin. The delay produced by stabilisation of your lumbar spine makes you slower. This does not matter very much for slow movements. But when you want to move fast, you do want to move fast! There is a way to eliminate or at least minimise this delay by holding your body in a posture where your postural muscles are already engaged.

We generally think of posture and movement as being separate – we are either still or we move. Movement and posture place different demands on our muscles and so it is not surprising that our muscles reflect this. For example, those muscles used mainly for posture have a high content of slow-twitch fibres whereas the muscles used mainly for movement have a high content of fast twitch fibres. But not only are muscles different from each other, one muscle can be quite different in different functions. For example a muscle when used in a postural (stabilising or tonic) function will act differently from the same muscle when used for movement (mobilising or phasic function). So for ease of explanation, let me pretend that each muscle is really two muscles – a postural one and a phasic one (sometimes called stabilisers and mobilisers). As a further simplification, when I say a muscle, what I will mean is the muscle with all the various sensors associated with it plus its controlling mechanism within the Central Nervous System. So please keep it in mind when I talk about muscles ‘feeling this’ or ‘doing that’.

What is important about postural muscles from our perspective is the fact that they react against the force of gravity and that they act outside of our volition - we cannot normally control postural muscles directly, only indirectly – through intent. For example when we ride a bicycle, we keep our balance by the use of postural muscles. Our intent is not to fall down but we do not consciously control their operation in the way we can control voluntary movement. Conscious control would be too slow - before we could react, we would fall down. This is in fact what happens when we start learning to ride a bicycle – we start by using phasic muscles and through trial and error the postural muscles take over and we ‘find our balance’.

Our postural muscles are not only used in holding a posture or in balancing as was mentioned above, but during movement, too. If we think of movement as a transition between postures, we can see that postural muscles are active all the time."

- Karel Koskuba


"The core muscles are those closest to the spine. These muscles, also referred to as the postural muscles, lie along and attach to the vertebrae. (Their names are not exactly household words: intertransversarii, interspinalis, and suboccipital.) These muscles are qualitatively different from the muscles responsible for movement, which are the external muscles familiar to most people who work out — often known by abbreviated popular terms like biceps, pecs, lats, traps, delts, and abs. It is important to understand that the abs and surface muscles of the back are not postural muscles.

Postural ("core") muscles have the ability to do their work — supporting the body against gravity — by contracting for long periods without tiring. They perform this support function below the level of your conscious awareness, so you won't feel them working. Movement muscles, on the other hand, are made of a different type of muscle fiber. They can contract strongly to move the body or parts of the body, but tire quickly. For this reason, they are ill-suited for postural support, which must go on constantly. If you ask your movement muscles to support you, they are likely to ache or spasm in response to this unnatural duty.

Natural, correct posture is an effortless and painless equilibrium. We compromise this equilibrium when we recruit quickly tiring movement muscles to accomplish posture — an activity better suited to our postural muscles, which have far greater endurance. Whenever we do something to hold ourselves up — pulling the shoulders back, sticking out the chest, or tightening the abs, for example — we are using our movement muscles. We may manage to hold ourselves up like this, but it is ultimately tiring. (Constant tension in our movement muscles also inhibits free movement and restricts breathing.) Our postural muscles eventually atrophy because their work is being done (however inefficiently) by our movement muscles."

- Michael Hanko

[WC1277]

"The parallels between Qi and the use of postural muscles should be becoming a bit clearer now. When I use intent (Yi) to guide my postural muscles to lift my arms, I do not feel any effort – it is as if my arms are being lifted by invisible threads. When I use postural muscles to absorb or neutralise a push, I don’t feel any effort and my body reacts automatically to produce a balanced outcome for me. And when you start using postural muscles, you develop a feedback through subtle sensations such as heat, ache, flow and others. All these are properties of Qi. If we describe (human) Qi as ‘those processes of the body/mind that are outside conscious control’ than we would cover most aspects."

- Karel Koskuba

[WC1277]

Like I said from the beginning, no magic or mystical phenomenon, just good posture.....

[guy b.]

It is more than just good posture, as the article by Koskuba shows, but good stuff and thanks for posting. This is the yiquan and hsing yi quan theory of qi which I subscribe to.

[WC1277]

It is more than just good posture, as the article by Koskuba shows, but good stuff and thanks for posting. This is the yiquan and hsing yi quan theory of qi which I subscribe to.

I agree but to answer in the most basic explanation of what Qi is, is that it's just awareness and development of the postural muscles. One feels more energetic, more alive because of proper use of those muscles against gravity and external force without having to use their 'movement muscles'. WC is heavily based on this BTW. So therefor Qi isn't an actual energy flow per se but a lack of fatigue due to proper posture....

[sanjuro_ronin]

Deep down, we all know what we WANT Qi to be:

https://encrypted-tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT4bh2d-asl3laDl2N1pl1Kb8B28iWYvYoKWnzV0nsEgZh4ykpA

[anerlich]

We generally think of posture and movement as being separate – we are either still or we move.

"we" do, do "we"?

A few overgeneralisations here.


So therefor Qi isn't an actual energy flow per se but a lack of fatigue due to proper posture...

Qi as it is involved in TCM, etc. is purported to be an "actual energy flow per se", and is a lot more than just correct posture.

Sorry to raise an inconvenient truth.

Qi is like The Force ... in so far as much of the discussion around it is fiction.

[WC1277]

"we" do, do "we"?

A few overgeneralisations here.



Qi as it is involved in TCM, etc. is purported to be an "actual energy flow per se", and is a lot more than just correct posture.

Sorry to raise an inconvenient truth.

Qi is like The Force ... in so far as much of the discussion around it is fiction.

The "we" or "we do" is within context of the article I qouted, don't get your panties in a bunch.

Think what you want but there's an eastern way of explaining something and there's a western way. While I admire the generally magical descriptive way of the east, I've come to appreciate through my own lineage the mysticism veil lifted to a western concrete way of understanding something. If you work well with supposed 'energy fields' flowing through your body then so be it, but there's other more scientific ways of understanding Qi that I subscribe to, not to say the least that it makes more sense as well...

[anerlich]

The "we" or "we do" is within context of the article I qouted

Yes, I knew what a quotation is, and the quotation overgeneralised and IMO was somewhat patronising, as was your response to my post per below ...


don't get your panties in a bunch.

As if. :rolleyes:


Think what you want

I will. I think you're some way off a complete understanding or explanation of Qi for the reasons I stated.

But hey, think what you want ...

[guy b.]

The "we" or "we do" is within context of the article I qouted, don't get your panties in a bunch.

Think what you want but there's an eastern way of explaining something and there's a western way. While I admire the generally magical descriptive way of the east, I've come to appreciate through my own lineage the mysticism veil lifted to a western concrete way of understanding something.

This is also what I have experienced. I think there is a particular obsession in the west with avoiding physical descriptions of qi and in particular with making it about more than the physical. I have not found this within the systems I have studied. There is the problem of Chinese magical/metaphorical description but once you go with that and learn not to take it literally the understanding of qi is strictly in physical terms. What else could it be after all?

[guy b.]

I agree but to answer in the most basic explanation of what Qi is, is that it's just awareness and development of the postural muscles. One feels more energetic, more alive because of proper use of those muscles against gravity and external force without having to use their 'movement muscles'. WC is heavily based on this BTW. So therefor Qi isn't an actual energy flow per se but a lack of fatigue due to proper posture....

I would describe it as awareness of and control over the postural musculature, with particular emphasis of using the mind to ensure recruitment and engagement. Generally awareness and the basic control is accomplished fairly quickly through standing exercises and visualisations. Force testing, stepping and other movement are then introduced until it becomes natural and integrated.

Hearing people talk about energy flow when they should be talking of relaxation and visualisation to gain control over particular musculature, 6 directions when they should be talkiing about gaining and testing postural muscule movement forwards, backwards, left, right, upwards and downwards, and so on as if it is something magical that cannot be analysed and described in simple terms as a training method saddens me to say the least. If you talk in this way it can only mean that you didn't do it, or you did it without knowing what you were doing (unlikely!). Why pretend?

[guy b.]

Yes, I knew what a quotation is, and the quotation overgeneralised and IMO was somewhat patronising, as was your response to my post per below ...



As if. :rolleyes:



I will. I think you're some way off a complete understanding or explanation of Qi for the reasons I stated.

But hey, think what you want ...

What is the gist of your argument? It seems as if you want to be annoyed but aren't sure why.

[guy b.]

And if you didn't understand, wouldn't you ask? How TF else would you find out? Dude?

This was a joke, aimed at the magical mystery crew

[WC1277]

I would describe it as awareness of and control over the postural musculature, with particular emphasis of using the mind to ensure recruitment and engagement. Generally awareness and the basic control is accomplished fairly quickly through standing exercises and visualisations. Force testing, stepping and other movement are then introduced until it becomes natural and integrated.

Hearing people talk about energy flow when they should be talking of relaxation and visualisation to gain control over particular musculature, 6 directions when they should be talkiing about gaining and testing postural muscule movement forwards, backwards, left, right, upwards and downwards, and so on as if it is something magical that cannot be analysed and described in simple terms as a training method saddens me to say the least. If you talk in this way it can only mean that you didn't do it, or you did it without knowing what you were doing (unlikely!). Why pretend?

Well said.

[Empty_Cup]

I would describe it as awareness of and control over the postural musculature, with particular emphasis of using the mind to ensure recruitment and engagement. Generally awareness and the basic control is accomplished fairly quickly through standing exercises and visualisations. Force testing, stepping and other movement are then introduced until it becomes natural and integrated.

Hearing people talk about energy flow when they should be talking of relaxation and visualisation to gain control over particular musculature, 6 directions when they should be talkiing about gaining and testing postural muscule movement forwards, backwards, left, right, upwards and downwards, and so on as if it is something magical that cannot be analysed and described in simple terms as a training method saddens me to say the least. If you talk in this way it can only mean that you didn't do it, or you did it without knowing what you were doing (unlikely!). Why pretend?

So then how is it that the same meridians and paths are sensed despite being in different postures? If a qigong practitioner performs Small Circulation in a seated posture, kneeling posture, laying down, or standing up, the path is always the same. How does your theory explain this?

[David Jamieson]

breath.

no breath = you are dead.

[Empty_Cup]

breath.

no breath = you are dead.

And how is it that breath goes anywhere other than your lungs?

[taai gihk yahn]

And how is it that breath goes anywhere other than your lungs?

well, oxygen gets transported into the blood and distributed around the body - that's one pretty straight forward way of "breath" getting around the body;

the other way is the connective tissue network, especially deep connective tissue (e.g. -0 dural membranes); the wave-like propogation of the action of the breathing mechanism and its response to changes in pressure through the CT; this movement can be felt and facilitated by certain types of hands-on treatment (e.g. - cranial osteopathy) or certain types of physical exercise (qigong can do it, but so can yoga, as wel as more contemporary approaches such as Trager Work, Feldenkries and Alexander Technique, to varying degrees)

[Yoshiyahu]

CHI is air or water with in your body, and outside your body. The food, the oxygen you intake gives you more chi...Your cells release chi when you exercise and heat your body up an allow condensation to occur..

The more you exercise strenously the more chi you release allowing your body to grow stronger...

[Vajramusti]

well, oxygen gets transported into the blood and distributed around the body - that's one pretty straight forward way of "breath" getting around the body;

the other way is the connective tissue network, especially deep connective tissue (e.g. -0 dural membranes); the wave-like propogation of the action of the breathing mechanism and its response to changes in pressure through the CT; this movement can be felt and facilitated by certain types of hands-on treatment (e.g. - cranial osteopathy) or certain types of physical exercise (qigong can do it, but so can yoga, as wel as more contemporary approaches such as Trager Work, Feldenkries and Alexander Technique, to varying degrees)
------------------------------------------------------------------

good post

[Ali. R]

Chi is ‘matter’ that progresses into energy and energy to spirit. Chi is the medium, or bridge, between matter and spirit.

And any other definition could easily be consider hyperbolic and usually always falls in the category of prodigiousness while consistently backed with unnecessary narratives.