What is qi?

[guy b.]

What is it?

Simple explanations only please.

I think I know what it is but I would like to hear what other people think it is also. I will post my definition after a few replies.

[GlennR]

What is it?

Simple explanations only please.

I think I know what it is but I would like to hear what other people think it is also. I will post my definition after a few replies.

The opposite of IQ

[nasmedicine]

The opposite of IQ

LOL Clever!

[Robinhood]

What is it?

Simple explanations only please.

I think I know what it is but I would like to hear what other people think it is also. I will post my definition after a few replies.


Here is one for you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcp6J1T60qc&feature=related

[GlennR]

LOL Clever!

Im on top of my game this morning! ;)

[nasmedicine]

Im on top of my game this morning! ;)

but in all seriousness in my opinion I feel that chi is the lay term for the interplay between bioelectromagnetics and biochemistry, that is inherent to all living organisms, that which modern medical science is aware of but can not explain. There have been some studies done that hypothesize that it may have to do with the ones mitochondria and their ability to produce ATP and then there are the studies have shown that it may have something to do with hemoglobin in the blood and how it interacts with other complex biochemical pathways. That being said there has not been a proper peer reviewed study published in any reputable medical journal looking into any of this. According to my Sifu "where there is blood flow there is chi flow. Where the mind (yi) is focuses so shall ones chi.' Just my two cents.

[guy b.]

but in all seriousness in my opinion I feel that chi is the lay term for the interplay between bioelectromagnetics and biochemistry, that is inherent to all living organisms, that which modern medical science is aware of but can not explain. There have been some studies done that hypothesize that it may have to do with the ones mitochondria and their ability to produce ATP and then there are the studies have shown that it may have something to do with hemoglobin in the blood and how it interacts with other complex biochemical pathways. That being said there has not been a proper peer reviewed study published in any reputable medical journal looking into any of this. According to my Sifu "where there is blood flow there is chi flow. Where the mind (yi) is focuses so shall ones chi.' Just my two cents.

Agree it is a physical process and that mind is important

[guy b.]

Here is one for you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcp6J1T60qc&feature=related

I don't have an hour and 18 minutes available. What is his theory?

[GlennR]

but in all seriousness in my opinion I feel that chi is the lay term for the interplay between bioelectromagnetics and biochemistry, that is inherent to all living organisms, that which modern medical science is aware of but can not explain. There have been some studies done that hypothesize that it may have to do with the ones mitochondria and their ability to produce ATP and then there are the studies have shown that it may have something to do with hemoglobin in the blood and how it interacts with other complex biochemical pathways. That being said there has not been a proper peer reviewed study published in any reputable medical journal looking into any of this. According to my Sifu "where there is blood flow there is chi flow. Where the mind (yi) is focuses so shall ones chi.' Just my two cents.

Fair enough.
Not my thing to be honest, but if someone can show me otherwise im all ears

[Xian]

What is it?

Simple explanations only please.

I think I know what it is but I would like to hear what other people think it is also. I will post my definition after a few replies.

A form of microscopic matter, smaller than molecules but denser in itensity.


Kind regards,
Xian

[guy b.]

A form of microscopic matter, smaller than molecules but denser in itensity.


Kind regards,
Xian

You are going for a supernatural explanation, or claiming science that we do not yet understand? Why?

[nasmedicine]

Fair enough.
Not my thing to be honest, but if someone can show me otherwise im all ears

Chi/Qi/Prana/Life Force...etc is not a fairy tale however through the media and other charlatans the labels have now become somewhat I'm obscured in their meaning. One has to remember that these terms/labels were invented during a time where modern day science didn't exist. it's not like they could have exactly called it bioelectronics or biochemistry. And even with all the science that we have we still really can't explain "it" yet we know "it" exists. what a lot of what people think is chi, is merely placebo.

Cheers,

-Nirav

[guy b.]

Chi/Qi/Prana/Life Force...etc is not a fairy tale however through the media through and other charlatans the labels have now become somewhat I'm obscured in their meaning. One has to remember that these terms/labels were invented during a time where modern day science didn't exist. it's not like they could have exactly called it bioelectronics or biochemistry. And even with all the science that we have we still really can't explain "it" yet we know "it" exists. what a lot of what people think is chi, is merely placebo.

Cheers,

-Nirav

I agree that it exists and that it has a normal physical basis that people didn't understand at the time when the idea was formulated. In this day an age though if we are talking about it we should be talking about the physical reality of whatever it is, shouldn't we?

[nasmedicine]

I agree that it exists and that it has a normal physical basis that people didn't understand at the time when the idea was formulated. In this day an age though if we are talking about it we should be talking about the physical reality of whatever it is, shouldn't we?

I absolutely agree with you we to should be talking about this as it pertains to physical reality, however that is where the problem begins. no one can agree on what the actual physical reality is because no one can prove it and therein lies the issue. The best that most internal martial artist can do is use examples or give an abstract explanation on how it works and what it is. This problem is not just specific to the explanation of chi, but many topics in science. For that reason I feel that many people will not even touch this topic.

[Hendrik]

Chi/Qi/Prana/Life Force...etc is not a fairy tale however through the media and other charlatans the labels have now become somewhat I'm obscured in their meaning. One has to remember that these terms/labels were invented during a time where modern day science didn't exist. it's not like they could have exactly called it bioelectronics or biochemistry. And even with all the science that we have we still really can't explain "it" yet we know "it" exists. what a lot of what people think is chi, is merely placebo.

Cheers,

-Nirav


Yes.

The presentation of the above video by the doctor is not about Qi but new age believe. One needs to define qi as the energy which makes tcm accupuncture and herbal work. Instead of getting into all kind of magic force, guidance..Fung shui ....fortunte telling....ect .

[GlennR]

Chi/Qi/Prana/Life Force...etc is not a fairy tale however through the media and other charlatans the labels have now become somewhat I'm obscured in their meaning. One has to remember that these terms/labels were invented during a time where modern day science didn't exist. it's not like they could have exactly called it bioelectronics or biochemistry. And even with all the science that we have we still really can't explain "it" yet we know "it" exists. what a lot of what people think is chi, is merely placebo.

Cheers,

-Nirav

Saying it exists doesnt make it so.

Id suggest the reason that it was named/invented before western science is exactly that... we can now scientifically explain how the body works

[nasmedicine]

Yes.

The presentation of the above video by the doctor is not about but new age believe.

yes this "new age thinking" that you mentioned many times before is one of the things I am talking about when I say placebo. And this is a problem mainly occurring to westerners unfortunately looking for answers from charlatans (Sifus /Guru's/Monks/ Alleged Spirutal Leaders who looking for easy prey.

[Hendrik]

yes this "new age thinking" that you mentioned many times before is one of the things I am talking about when I say placebo. And this is a problem mainly occurring to westerners unfortunately looking for answers from charlatans (Sifus /Guru's/Monks/ Alleged Spirutal Leaders who looking for easy prey.


For scientic experiments,
http://www.naturalhealingcenter.com/creative/jixingli.htm

[nasmedicine]

Saying it exists doesnt make it so.

Id suggest the reason that it was named/invented before western science is exactly that... we can now scientifically explain how the body works

you are correct, however how many things biologically speaking science has no ability to explain. Viruses for example are by definition not alive (unlike bacteria) however they can act as though they are and science is not able to explain why this phenomenon occurs so researchers just accept it and move forward to more important things like how to stop them. That however doesn't mean that we shouldn't still try to figure out but in the meantime we should focus on more pertinent issues. Another example, The human genome has been completely maped but will take at least 100 years for us to fully explore it even with 1000 supercomputers running 24/7.

And I really hope that nobody uses religion/god an example because that is a conversation that will go nowhere.

[guy b.]

Saying it exists doesnt make it so.

Id suggest the reason that it was named/invented before western science is exactly that... we can now scientifically explain how the body works

If you follow certain qi cultivation techniques you feel something. What are you feeling?

[GlennR]

you are correct sangeet exists does it mean it really exist however how many things biologically speaking at sign says no ability to explain. Viruses for example are by definition not alive (unlike bacteria) however they can act as though they are and signs is not able to explain why does phenomenon of course so we just accept it and move forward. The human genome has been completely maped but will take at least 100 years for us to fully explore it even with 1000 supercomputers running 24/7.

And I really hope that nobody uses religion/god an example because that is a conversation that will go nowhere.

Personally, i dont see the qi being anymore or any less viable than the existence of a God.
And im an atheist.

[GlennR]

If you follow certain qi cultivation techniques you feel something. What are you feeling?

Like?
Give me an example?

[nasmedicine]

I will say this, everything that applies to fighting can be explained using bio mechanics, physics, mathematics 100 percent without any doubt. Chi has nothing "directly" to do with fighting.Professional athletes do not do chi gong to accomplish what they do. However as we know a lot of the chi gong exercises do have some commonalities with other exercises that are done by athletes that involve cardio cardio vascular and pulmonary development (physiology doesn't change) . If an athlete or chi gong practitioner repeats there exercises and trains for a prolonged period of time they develop more robust collateral blood supply do whatever organs being perfused. Having said that according to chinese medicine the more blood flow to an organ, the more chi. the effect in the end of the same...more oxygen carrying capacity which means more endurance, which means better better immune system and faster recovery time/tissue healing. Very simple, very logical, very scientific. Same goes for yoga.

[nasmedicine]

If you follow certain qi cultivation techniques you feel something. What are you feeling?

to be put in an overly simplified way, Blood Flow. With that, all the other sensations that people describe follow... the feeling of tingling, feeling of electricity, the feeling of heat, and euphoria.

[nasmedicine]

For scientic experiments,
http://www.naturalhealingcenter.com/creative/jixingli.htm

thanks I will look into this when I have a chance.

[GlennR]

I will say this, everything that applies to fighting can be explained using bio mechanics, physics, mathematics 100 percent without any doubt.

Yes, id add will power and intelligence as well.


Chi has nothing "directly" to do with fighting.Professional athletes do not do chi gong to accomplish what they do.

Correct


However as we know a lot of the chi gong exercises do have some commonalities with other exercises that I'm done by athletes that involve cardio cardio vascular and pulmonary development. If an athlete or chi gong practitioner repeats there exercises and trains for a prolonged period of time they develop more robust collateral blood supply do whatever organs being perfused. Having said that according to chinese medicine the more blood flow to an organ, the more chi. the effect in the end of the same...more oxygen carrying capacity which means more endurance, which means better better immune system and faster recovery time/tissue healing. Very simple, very logical, very scientific.

Well if the definition of chi is increased blood flow and better level of fitness via exercise then i agree.



Same goes for yoga

I did yoga heavily for 4 years or so and i can attest to its benefits.

[nasmedicine]

Yes, id add will power and intelligence as well.



Correct



Well if the definition of chi is increased blood flow and better level of fitness via exercise then i agree.




I did yoga heavily for 4 years or so and i can attest to its benefits.

I agree about the power and intelligence, especially the intelligence. However I would like to clarify that I do not feel that the movement of blood is the definition of chi but rather it's one of the ways thought to be responsible for its migration through out the body.

[guy b.]

Like?
Give me an example?

Typically you feel warmth or flow or squeezing of bones/joints, or all three.

[guy b.]

to be put in an overly simplified way, Blood Flow. With that, all the other sensations that people describe follow... the feeling of tingling, feeling of electricity, the feeling of heat, and euphoria.

Blood flow may somewhat related to what you are feeling, but I do not believe it is what you are feeling.

[guy b.]

I will say this, everything that applies to fighting can be explained using bio mechanics, physics, mathematics 100 percent without any doubt. Chi has nothing "directly" to do with fighting.Professional athletes do not do chi gong to accomplish what they do. However as we know a lot of the chi gong exercises do have some commonalities with other exercises that are done by athletes that involve cardio cardio vascular and pulmonary development (physiology doesn't change) . If an athlete or chi gong practitioner repeats there exercises and trains for a prolonged period of time they develop more robust collateral blood supply do whatever organs being perfused. Having said that according to chinese medicine the more blood flow to an organ, the more chi. the effect in the end of the same...more oxygen carrying capacity which means more endurance, which means better better immune system and faster recovery time/tissue healing. Very simple, very logical, very scientific. Same goes for yoga.

Cultivation of qi can be relevant to any athletic endeavor and is quite applicable to fighting. I am struggling to see what most common qi cultivation exercises have to do with pulmonary or vascular development.

[nasmedicine]

Blood flow may somewhat related to what you are feeling, but I do not believe it is what you are feeling.

Agreed. The result is indirectly related to blood flow.

[imperialtaichi]

I don't think Chi/Qi is a single thing, but as a way to explain a variety of observable phenomenon.

And a lot of such observable phenomenon cannot be fully explained by contempary scientific models, yet. But NOTHING escapes the laws of physics/nature/biology.

Like how we laugh at medical science of the 18th century, future generations will also laugh at how little we know today.

p.s. in Chinese, we even describe a well cooked stir fry as having "Wok Qi" ;)

[nasmedicine]

Cultivation of qi can be relevant to any athletic endeavor and is quite applicable to fighting.

Chi is not directly related to fighting however it can be in an indirect manner.

[nasmedicine]

I don't think Chi/Qi is a single thing, but as a way to explain a variety of observable phenomenon.

And a lot of such observable phenomenon cannot be fully explained by contempary scientific models, yet. But NOTHING escapes the laws of physics/nature/biology.

Like how we laugh at medical science of the 18th century, future generations will also laugh at how little we know today.

p.s. in Chinese, we even describe a well cooked stir fry as having "Wok Qi" ;)

Nice post, you are correct chi is not just one thing but rather an amalgamation of many things. However what those things are is an extremely debatable topic.

[guy b.]

Chi is not directly related to fighting however it can be in an indirect manner.

Qi cultivation is related to the improved functioning of the body if you believe it is a real thing. A better functioning body is better at fighting in general, so while cultivating qi does not make you a great fighter it is certainly a useful thing for a fighter to develop.

[nasmedicine]

Qi cultivation is related to the improved functioning of the body if you believe it is a real thing. A better functioning body is better at fighting in general, so while cultivating qi does not make you a great fighter it is certainly a useful thing for a fighter to develop.

Precisely, hence being indirectly related.

[imperialtaichi]

Precisely, hence being indirectly related.

Just throwing a hyperthetical here:

A lot of very experienced acupuncturists would tell you that they locate acupincture points not by sight or touch, but by "sensing" where there is a dip in Chi flow;

And we have seen numerous (sometimes comical) demonstrations where the teacher moves a student (ALWAYS between an issuer and a complying receiver) with Chi without touching. I have NEVER seen such Chi empty force working on a non-complying subject.

But what if, although a "Chi blast" in my opinion can never move a person in a real fight, it is the receiver who is skilled in listening to the issuer's Chi/intention/telegraphing/bioelectric field etc.? Can a well developed ability to sense give a person to respond to an attack (or the intention of an attack) before it happens?

Have we all had experiences in everyday life that we manage to sense something is about to happen just before it happens?

Just a thought.

[Robinhood]

Just throwing a hyperthetical here:

A lot of very experienced acupuncturists would tell you that they locate acupincture points not by sight or touch, but by "sensing" where there is a dip in Chi flow;

And we have seen numerous (sometimes comical) demonstrations where the teacher moves a student (ALWAYS between an issuer and a complying receiver) with Chi without touching. I have NEVER seen such Chi empty force working on a non-complying subject.

But what if, although a "Chi blast" in my opinion can never move a person in a real fight, it is the receiver who is skilled in listening to the issuer's Chi/intention/telegraphing/bioelectric field etc.? Can a well developed ability to sense give a person to respond to an attack (or the intention of an attack) before it happens?

Have we all had experiences in everyday life that we manage to sense something is about to happen just before it happens?

Just a thought.

Yes, or something similar, I use that all the time when working out. I think it is more of a sense of aim and ability of the other person to deliver.


Cheers

[Hendrik]

Qi cultivation is related to the improved functioning of the body if you believe it is a real thing. A better functioning body is better at fighting in general, so while cultivating qi does not make you a great fighter it is certainly a useful thing for a fighter to develop.

Qi cultivation allso directly related to fighting when the qi medirians handling becomes a part of power generation handling and momentum handling.

Visualization lead the qi medirians flow aids the Physical body motion and power generation.

[nasmedicine]

... it is the receiver who is skilled in listening to the issuer's Chi/intention/telegraphing/bioelectric field etc.? Can a well developed ability to sense give a person to respond to an attack (or the intention of an attack) before it happens?


Of course, but I do not like to mix chi with intention in the context of fighting. Instead I would say it was more like feeling ones Yi = thought/intention without the chi component (however yes they (Yi and Chi) are interconnected "where Yi goes, chi follows") . And I do agree that it is possible to reach that state you speak of. To be honest that is actually part of our systems poem and the basis of our chi sao/gor sao.

[Hendrik]

Of course, but I do not like to mix chi with intention in the context of fighting. Instead I would say it was more like feeling ones Yi = thought/intention without the chi component (however yes they (Yi and Chi) are interconnected "where Yi goes, chi follows") . And I do agree that it is possible to reach that state you speak of. To be honest that is actually part of our systems poem and the basis of our chi sao/gor sao.

I agree with you, let's take qi as it is.

[nasmedicine]

Qi cultivation allso directly related to fighting when the qi medirians handling becomes a part of power generation handling and momentum handling.

Visualization lead the qi medirians flow aids the Physical body motion and power generation.

If visualization = Yi, then we are on the same Page.

[Hendrik]

If visualization = Yi, then we are on the same Page.


Visualization is the full picture, yi is intention is a point shot.
Running a point shot is Very focus but also narrow.

In fact, WCK biu jee is not ordinary external Style hard spear fingers, but ride on the qi medirians Flow. The big picture is visualization and only at contact the intention applied.

[Hendrik]

IMHO,
in the old time, when one plays the dummy, it is called massage the dummy or mo Jong. The visualization is a continuous flow , only at the point of issue Jin, an intention is applied.

It is not strike and strike discontinuously as today.

[nasmedicine]

Visualization is the full picture, yi is intention is a point shot.
Running a point shot is Very focus but also narrow.

Yes precisely, we are on the same page I just needed to understand your terminology. To be clear, If I can put it into your words/terminology : {visualization (thought, and proprioception involved)} -> {Yi (targeted intent)} -> {Chi ( summation of visualization and Yi;passively present along with Yi at point of intention}

[nasmedicine]

IMHO,
in the old time, when one plays the dummy, it is called massage the dummy or mo Jong. The visualization is a continuous flow , only at the point of issue Jin, an intention is applied.

It is not strike and strike discontinuously as today.

I agree that visualization on the dummy is extremely important.

[Hendrik]

Yes precisely, we are on the same page I just needed to understand your terminology. To be clear, If I can put it into your words/terminology : {visualization (thought, and proprioception involved)} -> {Yi (targeted intent)} -> {Chi ( summation of visualization and Yi;passively present along with Yi at point of intention}

Qi evoke by visualization, and evoke intensify qi via focus intention.


Think it as visualization build up a map, intention or yi zoom in to a certain spot. As watching the gps screen.

[imperialtaichi]

Other considerations:

Scientific, as we are understanding more about the function of the heart, many scientists believe information processing occurs not just in the brain, but a "heart-brain" and that the heart has enough neurons to process information. We all know the heart emits an electric field (basis of ECG), so do we have any sensing organs to pick up the electric field of an opponent hence reading his intention to a certain degree?

Another interesting medical fact is that some neurons have photo-receptors; and that mitochondrias can be stimulated by light to produce more ATP, which forms the basis of a range of LLLT (low level laser treatment) treatments. Some scientists argue that the photo-receptors are remanance of our plant ancestors; some suggests the body emits photons as a neuro-transmitter.

Fascinating stuff.

[Hendrik]

I agree that visualization on the dummy is extremely important.

Yup. Agree.

[nasmedicine]

Qi evoke by visualization, and evoke intensity via focus intention. Think it as visualization build up a big picture, intention or yi zoom in to a certain spot.

After understanding your terminology I understand what you are saying and I agree.

We are saying same thing just using the terms in different light.

Yes once one can visualize the target area (can be on ones own body or a target on the opponent), the intent along with Yi (presence/awareness) will automatically manifest/concentrate at the target location.

Cheers,

- Nirav

Side note: I apologize to everybody else reading this if they feel like it's getting a little bit too abstract.

[Hendrik]

After understanding your terminology I understand what you are saying and I agree.

We are saying same thing just using the terms in different light.

Yes once one can visualize the target area (can be on ones own body or a target on the opponent), the intent along with Yi (presence/awareness) will automatically manifest/concentrate at the target location.

Cheers,

- Nirav

Side note: I apologize to everybody else reading this if they feel like it's getting a little bit too abstract.


Ok . Good..

[imperialtaichi]

If visualization = Yi, then we are on the same Page.

Since this thread is about Qi, I can open my pandora's box. ;-)

Visualization requires the function of Yi, but not Yi itself.

True Yi or "Zhen Yi" is evoked by the Primordial Shen "Yuan Shen", although most of our conscious state we are only aware of our Cognitive Shen or "Shi Shen". Qi is much better directed by our "Zhen Yi", and not the everyday awared intention/Yi. The key is to swithch of the brain and turn on the heart, which is written in many TCMA texts.

So while visualization helps, it is not Yi itself.

Now, moving to top level stuff:

If we look at Yi Qi as a horse, Shen is the rider; of course, we become effective when Shen Yi Qi (rider and his horse) works together. But often, the horse become the master and ignores the rider.

But once you becomes aware of Shen, you will realise that if your opponent's Shen Yi Qi is not united, your Shen can influence the opponent's Yi Qi as well, much like a rider influencing an opponent's horse.

From day one, my IYTC teacher GM Wei Shuren had said, "Borrowing the opponent's force is of low level skills; top level skills is to borrow the opponent's Yi Qi." It took me 10 yrs to really understand what he meant.

[nasmedicine]

Other considerations:

Scientific, as we are understanding more about the function of the heart, many scientists believe information processing occurs not just in the brain, but a "heart-brain" and that the heart has enough neurons to process information. We all know the heart emits an electric field (basis of ECG), so do we have any sensing organs to pick up the electric field of an opponent hence reading his intention to a certain degree?

Another interesting medical fact is that some neurons have photo-receptors; and that mitochondrias can be stimulated by light to produce more ATP, which forms the basis of a range of LLLT (low level laser treatment) treatments. Some scientists argue that the photo-receptors are remanance of our plant ancestors; some suggests the body emits photons as a neuro-transmitter.

Fascinating stuff.

very interesting information would you by any chance happen to know which journals these discoveries have been published in? As far as being able to sense another person's electromagnetic field I honestly do feel it's possible. All higher order organisms have the ability however the problem lies in the fact that we lack the receptors sensitive enough. Through special training I am still skeptical that we can reach the level of sense that we see in nature. Furthermore I haven't heard of anybody to successfully demonstrate this nor has it been scientifically documented that anybody has ability. The only things in nature that have these abilities are things like certain types of marine life. Having said all that I really would like to know if anybody has any particular type of training method that they feel can potentially bring these abilities out.

[nasmedicine]

Since this thread is about Qi, I can open my pandora's box. ;-)

Visualization requires the function of Yi, but not Yi itself.

True Yi or "Zhen Yi" is evoked by the Primordial Shen "Yuan Shen", although most of our conscious state we are only aware of our Cognitive Shen or "Shi Shen". Qi is much better directed by our "Zhen Yi", and not the everyday awared intention/Yi. The key is to swithch of the brain and turn on the heart, which is written in many TCMA texts.

So while visualization helps, it is not Yi itself.

Now, moving to top level stuff:

If we look at Yi Qi as a horse, Shen is the rider; of course, we become effective when Shen Yi Qi (rider and his horse) works together. But often, the horse become the master and ignores the rider.

But once you becomes aware of Shen, you will realise that if your opponent's Shen Yi Qi is not united, your Shen can influence the opponent's Yi Qi as well, much like a rider influencing an opponent's horse.

From day one, my IYTC teacher GM Wei Shuren had said, "Borrowing the opponent's force is of low level skills; top level skills is to borrow the opponent's Yi Qi." It took me 10 yrs to really understand what he meant.

Hey John,

Great post. I agree with the information none of which contradicts my viewpoint on Yi. however I don't have the same background as you so therefore don't use the same terms (which is the root of much confusion on this forum).
Case in point when I said that visualization = Yi I did not mean that in the literal context, rather I was trying to see if Yi and visualization where one in the same in the context of Hendriks terminology. Great knowledge as usual. :-)

Cheers,

- Nirav

[Hendrik]

Since this thread is about Qi, I can open my pandora's box. ;-)

Visualization requires the function of Yi, but not Yi itself.

True Yi or "Zhen Yi" is evoked by the Primordial Shen "Yuan Shen", although most of our conscious state we are only aware of our Cognitive Shen or "Shi Shen". Qi is much better directed by our "Zhen Yi", and not the everyday awared intention/Yi. The key is to swithch of the brain and turn on the heart, which is written in many TCMA texts.

So while visualization helps, it is not Yi itself.

Now, moving to top level stuff:

If we look at Yi Qi as a horse, Shen is the rider; of course, we become effective when Shen Yi Qi (rider and his horse) works together. But often, the horse become the master and ignores the rider.

But once you becomes aware of Shen, you will realise that if your opponent's Shen Yi Qi is not united, your Shen can influence the opponent's Yi Qi as well, much like a rider influencing an opponent's horse.

From day one, my IYTC teacher GM Wei Shuren had said, "Borrowing the opponent's force is of low level skills; top level skills is to borrow the opponent's Yi Qi." It took me 10 yrs to really understand what he meant.

John,

I am asking myself, it is.
Ok for me to response to this direct? Or I rather not talking?

[Robinhood]

Since this thread is about Qi, I can open my pandora's box. ;-)

Visualization requires the function of Yi, but not Yi itself.

True Yi or "Zhen Yi" is evoked by the Primordial Shen "Yuan Shen", although most of our conscious state we are only aware of our Cognitive Shen or "Shi Shen". Qi is much better directed by our "Zhen Yi", and not the everyday awared intention/Yi. The key is to swithch of the brain and turn on the heart, which is written in many TCMA texts.

So while visualization helps, it is not Yi itself.

Now, moving to top level stuff:

If we look at Yi Qi as a horse, Shen is the rider; of course, we become effective when Shen Yi Qi (rider and his horse) works together. But often, the horse become the master and ignores the rider.

But once you becomes aware of Shen, you will realise that if your opponent's Shen Yi Qi is not united, your Shen can influence the opponent's Yi Qi as well, much like a rider influencing an opponent's horse.

From day one, my IYTC teacher GM Wei Shuren had said, "Borrowing the opponent's force is of low level skills; top level skills is to borrow the opponent's Yi Qi." It took me 10 yrs to really understand what he meant.

Yes, I like that way of describing it,

Thanks John, nice post.



Cheers

[imperialtaichi]

very interesting information would you by any chance happen to know which journals these discoveries have been published in? As far as being able to sense another person's electromagnetic field I honestly do feel it's possible. All higher order organisms have the ability however the problem lies in the fact that we lack the receptors sensitive enough. Through special training I am still skeptical that we can reach the level of sense that we see in nature. Furthermore I haven't heard of anybody to successfully demonstrate this nor has it been scientifically documented that anybody has ability. The only things in nature that have these abilities are things like certain types of marine life. Having said all that I really would like to know if anybody has any particular type of training method that they feel can potentially bring these abilities out.

The "heart-brain" connection is still debatable amongst scientists, but the photo-receptors are well established. I learnt that during my acupuncture training (I'm certified in acupuncture). I can't quote the journals but the information is readily available.

[nasmedicine]

The "heart-brain" connection is still debatable amongst scientists, but the photo-receptors are well established. I learnt that during my acupuncture training (I'm certified in acupuncture). I can't quote the journals but the information is readily available.

I see, my knowledge of acupuncture at this point in time is basic at best. as far as the photo receptors are concerned I will definitely try to read up on it (sounds very cool). Perhaps I can impress my Neurologist buddy with my knowledge (I'm sure he is not aware of these discoveries either, :-))

[imperialtaichi]

John,

I am asking myself, it is.
Ok for me to response to this direct? Or I rather not talking?

Please do Hendrik, I always respect your views, and I anticipate that you will respect mine as well. I also anticipate that you won't assume what we have or don't have in the IYTC and KL22 systems.

[xinyidizi]

There are two types of people in a discussion like this:
1. People who haven't really practiced inner cultivation or are very low level at it
2. People who have actually practiced qigong and have got to a reasonable level in it.

The first group would either deny the existence of qi and would say that it's a superstition or would try to justify it by connecting it to modern scientific terms and would say that ancient people would use qi as a metaphor to explain the unknown energy that modern science can explain.
Personally I like to follow the new advances of the modern day science in this field and there has certainly been some progress but I think most of it is just at hypothesis level and at best they can only explain the effects of qi on the matter not the qi itself.

[YouKnowWho]

2. People who have actually practiced qigong and have got to a reasonable level in it.

I have heard that China, Taiwan, and US have spent resource in the area of:

- see through a concret wall.
- make a seed to grow within 2 minutes.
- get into the spiritual world.
- ...

There are 3 different kind of people who can achieve this much easier than others. Those who:

- was born with it.
- has near death experience.
- has Qi Gong medatation training.

The 21th centry may be the period that we start to understand the "spiritual world". If we believe in UFO, we should believe in "spiritual world" as well.

[nasmedicine]

I have heard that China, Taiwan, and US have spent resource in the area of:

- see through a concret wall.
- make a seed to grow within 2 minutes.
- get into the spiritual world.
- ...

There are 3 different kind of people who can achieve this much easier than others. Those who:

- was born with it.
- has near death experience.
- has Qi Gong medatation training.

The 21th centry may be the period that we start to understand the "spiritual world". If we believe in UFO, we should believe in "spiritual world" as well.

In the worlds of Hendriks, this would be labeled "new age thinking", and unfortunately that is exactly why Chi Gung loses some of it validness with the many people. It is this "new age thinking" that causes many to ridicule the practice.

[xinyidizi]

Yes, that's astral projection and remote viewing.

[nasmedicine]

Yes, that's astral projection and remote viewing. It sometimes happens accidentally mostly as sleep paralysis when you are very tired but in order to do it consciously one needs sufficient reserved qi and the ability to stop the inner conversation completely. Some people use different meditations, visualizations, focusing on a high pitched sound etc to achieve this level of calmness but I personally prefer to stop thinking directly. There are many active forums about out of body experience on the internet.

As I like to tell everyone, "What ever works for you.". If it works for you then more power to you.

[YouKnowWho]

It is this "new age thinking" that causes many to ridicule the practice.

Someone said there are physical world, mental world, and spiritual world. I'm still in my physical world no matter how hard that I have tried to move into the other world. :(

[Hendrik]

In the worlds of Hendriks, this would be labeled "new age thinking", and unfortunately that is exactly why Chi Gung loses some of it validness with the many people. It is this "new age thinking" that causes many to ridicule the practice.



yes. all kinds of stuffs which mess up what it is.

[GlennR]

Yes, that's astral projection and remote viewing. It sometimes happens accidentally mostly as sleep paralysis when you are very tired but in order to do it consciously one needs sufficient reserved qi and the ability to stop the inner conversation completely. Some people use different meditations, visualizations, focusing on a high pitched sound etc to achieve this level of calmness but I personally prefer to stop thinking directly. There are many active forums about out of body experience on the internet.

I did notice that

[Hendrik]

Please do Hendrik, I always respect your views, and I anticipate that you will respect mine as well. I also anticipate that you won't assume what we have or don't have in the IYTC and KL22 systems.

Thanks John!

[Hendrik]

1. in the YKT, I catagoraized a Mind layer, in the mind layer there are only

Thinking, intention, aware, visualization , and all of these four function are power by Shen or I call present-ness.

That's all what is needed in Qigong development.


also, I address the fact that one needs to have the body loose, the mind quiet down, the breathing naturally deepen in order to let the Qi layer surface.


it is not that complicated if it is the same Zhen Qi we talked about in TCM accupuncture and herbals.


why not just grow it have it and one will know what it is.


2. so called New age thinking or cult trying to link qi to everything from fung shui to ET and God, it really getting things screw up big time, and to the worst is, it screws up the proccess of development and mislead those who really needs it for healing.



3, another issue is lots of people who has no experience or autherntic training even from China translate the subject with imagination and lost the facture and the real process.


4, then there is the Qi blast in martial art, it is extremely ridiculus.


5, then there is the western Doctor and scientis who keep talking and thinking and argueing what they want instead of just take it as what it is.



so, well, the world is a fun place like a mecca of everyone knows it all but almost none knows what the heck it is.



it is just a phenomenon of energy flow which will surface in human body when the body is loose, the mind is quiet down to have only singer thought, and breathing naturally deepen. what is the big deal? with all these philosophy, thinking, mid set, science, research....believe... spiritual..... all and goes no where.



BTW

so what is visualization for in the Qi development?
it is like seeing the whole river at the same time.
and Intention or Yi is like tracing a long the river a point at a time.

those are mind tools use in different development situation and conditions. it is not those OMM or visualize the ET flying down to give one an qi blast.....etc.


so what is aware ?
Sensing and hold on the focus in the slightest effort.

So what about thinking?
one needs to cut the thinking down to a singer thought or subject. it is a Qi de - surface element. one wants to switch off thinking and switch on awareness.

so what is shen?

that present-ness with its present one feel fresh , alert, and with ease.

that is all what one needs. no philosophy no believe is know how things functions. if you are human you can get the first feeling within 40 mins.

[taai gihk yahn]

If you follow certain qi cultivation techniques you feel something. What are you feeling?
various aspects of autonomic function, either sympathetic or parasympathetic, depending on what u r doing


I don't think Chi/Qi is a single thing, but as a way to explain a variety of observable phenomenon.
pretty much: if u look at how TCM practitioners assess qi, they ask questions about energy level, sleep patterns, bowl function, etc.; they look at ur tongue, smell ur breath, listen to ur guts, read ur pulse; sum ask ooh at ur eyes; look at the color of / feel the quality of the skin; these r all macro-observable phenomena that correlate to physiological function in different ways; if u look at "old style" clinical medicine of German / Russian school, many of these sorts of techniques were used as well (this from my wife who was educated as physician in USSR back in late '80's where they still used many things of this nature due to lack of technological availability; to wit, she can still "predict" things like pulmonary embolism days in advance of other docs educated here);


And a lot of such observable phenomenon cannot be fully explained by contempary scientific models, yet.
really? please give one example of this;


But NOTHING escapes the laws of physics/nature/biology.
yeah, so?


Like how we laugh at medical science of the 18th century, future generations will also laugh at how little we know today.
as should be the case; by that logic, we should be rolling on the floor at TCM...



Nice post, you are correct chi is not just one thing but rather an amalgamation of many things. However what those things are is an extremely debatable topic.
yes; so anyway, once the TCM practitioner has looked all the above, they derive a pattern-diagnosis based on a synthetic process;



A lot of very experienced acupuncturists would tell you that they locate acupincture points not by sight or touch, but by "sensing" where there is a dip in Chi flow;
it's no big mystery: from my training / practice in osteopathic manual therapy, I can palpate changes in tension / texture various different ways; nothing to do w acupuncture points per se; it's just practicing over time, knowing what to look for;

.


There are two types of people in a discussion like this:
1. People who haven't really practiced inner cultivation or are very low level at it
2. People who have actually practiced qigong and have got to a reasonable level in it.

The first group would either deny the existence of qi and would say that it's a superstition or would try to justify it by connecting it to modern scientific terms and would say that ancient people would use qi as a metaphor to explain the unknown energy that modern science can explain.
it is a metaphor; it's a synthetic process that allows u to develop a descriptive / predictive model of the net effect of macro-observable processes in the body; it's not a discreet "thing" that u measure directly; that's why u have so many different types of "qi" in TCM; go read "Web That Has No Weaver", it really answers the whole "debate" rather succinctly



Personally I like to follow the new advances of the modern day science in this field and there has certainly been some progress but I think most of it is just at hypothesis level and at best they can only explain the effects of qi on the matter not the qi itself.
this is if u hold the perspective of "qi" as "other"; but this is an a priori bias - u think "qi" is indescribable to begin with, so it's self-fulfilling prophecy;


I am not high level at qigong but so far my limited personal experience is that while doing zhanzhuang or slow qigong/taiji moves you can gradually feel something like a magnetic field around everything and you can also feel that in doing something like taiji it will connect your body like elastic bands. After you progress in qigong and start doing the meridian circulations you will feel it as a an energy that moves the liquids and the blood in your body.
u do feel something, but the fact is that if u understand anatomy and physiology, u actually have a pretty good capacity to describe everything u r feeling;


It is also possible to learn seeing these energy fields though I didn't actually learn this part in qigong. Many years ago I read a book about seeing auras and by some practice gradually learned to see them. At first you will start seeing colorful fields around everything which can be mistaken for eye errors but after you progress you will see these big colorful fields more clearly. Inside them there are a lot of small particles like shining dust making a very similar shape to metal powder in a magnetic field. It is not just limited to objects and there are clouds of this thing everywhere however it's denser around objects and especially living bodies.
self-delusion is a wonderful thing...


Probably there are different types of these small particles but I am not sure. The reason that I am saying this is that I have seen one special type mostly around electrical devices
a few times but again I'm not sure.
so rather than go for the simple, accepted, verifiable explanations, u'd prefer to rely on something about which u r not even sure?


As I like to tell everyone, "What ever works for you.". If it works for you then more power to you.
that's a big mistake, and allows people with crazy subjective experiences as much credence as those who have done objective study of a given issue; the "it's all good, whatever works for you" perspective is a huge impedance to generating a consensus of what's what;


fact of the matter is this; if you haven't practiced qigong in depth, u can't say anything about the subjective experience; OTOH, if u have studied qigong in depth and have had certain experiences, if at the same time u haven't studied anatomy / physiology in depth, u will be very quick to start talking about how "science" can't describe adequately what is going on; the problem w that is what u shut b saying is "I am not aware of what "science' has to say about what i am feeling" and leave it at that; in my case, I have done both; and as such, find very little difficulty relating the subjective experiences I have had doing qigong to descriptions of things like autonomic nervous system function as well as other phenomena - for example, the feeling of unimpeded ground reaction force acting on the postural system during standing practice: this is what gives u that feeling of "floating' of the head on top of the body; the biomechanics make perfect sense, but u have to understand it in depth;

all he conjecture is just that - better to start w what is known about the body, which is a tremendous amount more than was known 100 yrs ago, and an infinitely greater amount that 1,000 years ago;

[xinyidizi]

@taai gihk yahn： The things that I talked about have been mentioned in many of the old spiritual meditation and spiritual systems. I admire that you try to make a connection between the old teachings and modern science but if as you sound in your post you don't have a first hand experience of what has been mentioned in these systems what makes you so sure that your scientific findings are exactly what the daoist and other systems were talking about?

[imperialtaichi]

fact of the matter is this; if you haven't practiced qigong in depth, u can't say anything about the subjective experience; OTOH, if u have studied qigong in depth and have had certain experiences, if at the same time u haven't studied anatomy / physiology in depth, u will be very quick to start talking about how "science" can't describe adequately what is going on; the problem w that is what u shut b saying is "I am not aware of what "science' has to say about what i am feeling" and leave it at that; in my case, I have done both; and as such, find very little difficulty relating the subjective experiences I have had doing qigong to descriptions of things like autonomic nervous system function as well as other phenomena

TGY, if you assume you are the ONLY person on this forum with such unique knowledge and authority, you know very little about me and many of the other guys on the forum.

[taai gihk yahn]

TGY, if you assume you are the ONLY person on this forum with such unique knowledge and authority, you know very little about me and many of the other guys on the forum.

I assume nothing; I only state regarding my own experience / knowledge base; why would I assume anything about anyone else?

Addendum: as I always invite people - read the links in my sig; if it makes sense to u, u pretty much "get" where I am coming from in terms of how I "explain" my experiences

[taai gihk yahn]

@taai gihk yahn： The things that I talked about like seeing auras and astral projection have been mentioned in many of the old spiritual meditation and spiritual systems. I admire that you try to make a connection between the old teachings and modern science but if as you sound in your post you don't have a first hand experience of what has been mentioned in these systems what makes you so sure that your scientific findings are exactly what the daoist and other systems were talking about? To be honest if you can't see auras and you can't do astral projection I doubt that you have even taken the first elementary steps in meditation let alone practicing qigong "in depth". This is from my perspective based on my first hand experiences in accordance with the ancient teachings but if you'd rather go with "this dude is delusional" that's also fine with me.

been there, done all that (100 day opening, zhuenti pu sa practice, "seeing" auras, doing projection of different kinds); did lots of "off body healing" silliness; grew up; got over it;


so much for your "doubt"; of course, as typical, if I have the views I have I can't possibly have done any meditation / what I did I did all wrong, because it doesn't jive w your / some dead Chinese guy's ideas of "correct" :rolleyes:

yes, lots of that stuff is mentioned in "old systems"; there are also "old systems" that dismiss all of it in pretty much the same manner that I do (Ch'an Buddhism is particularly excoriating of Taoist Alchemical practices), so where does that leave things? the ability of people to convince themselves that they are doing something special and extraordinary is limitless; one can have all sorts of "experiences", for certain - if people want to drag a rotting corpse around with them, that's their business, I suppose;

[imperialtaichi]

really? please give one example of this;

it's no big mystery: from my training / practice in osteopathic manual therapy, I can palpate changes in tension / texture various different ways; nothing to do w acupuncture points per se;

1. Example: a. experimental data suggest a subject's blood pressure can be influenced by an "issuer" sitting in the next room. More scientific studies are being carried out to find and answer to this observable phenomenon.
b. closer to my work, an infected dental nerve, which sometimes can be a "hot pulp" where no matter how much anesthetics we put in, even at nerve trunks at remote site which is supposed to block all nervous communications, the signal is still going through. The mechanism is still not fully understood; I can explain it through "Qi/Energy", but if you can explain to me in scientific terms please educate me, and the entire dental profession.

2. It's no big mystery since you are touching the spot; I'm talking about locating without looking nor touching.

[taai gihk yahn]

1. Example: a. experimental data suggest a subject's blood pressure can be influenced by an "issuer" sitting in the next room. More scientific studies are being carried out to find and answer to this observable phenomenon..
there are all sorts of types of research along these lines - for example, the "famous" one about women living together in a college dorm synchronizing their cycles; there is a lot of research related to "mirror" neurons in terms of how people can entrain / synchronize various body functions; that there is an innate physiological capacity for non-local types of communication is not so far-fetched - my best guess is that it's probably a holdover from earlier forms of hominid evolution that enabled group cohesion on an instinctual versus abstract (symbol/language) level; which may explain why it's not as robust now as it used to be, given the evolutionary / environmental changes over however many millennia since then;



b. closer to my work, an infected dental nerve, which sometimes can be a "hot pulp" where no matter how much anesthetics we put in, even at nerve trunks at remote site which is supposed to block all nervous communications, the signal is still going through. The mechanism is still not fully understood; I can explain it through "Qi/Energy", but if you can explain to me in scientific terms please educate me, and the entire dental profession..
it's obviously not my area of specific research, but we all know that pain is a highly auto-regulated phenomenon and also that there are numerous pathways by which pain is mediated that circumvent the neural pathway - for example, the nociceptor pathway whereby pro-inflammatory substances r mediated within the connective tissue matrix - meaning u can do a nerve block, but person still has pain - not saying this is the specific mechanism, but it demonstrates the way the organism functions as a complex system and builds in redundancy for information processing via parallel systems;

in both cases, the point is that one can either fall back onto the metaphorical language of "qi", or one can continue to research the physiological substrates responsible for the observed phenomena; the "qi" explanation isn't wrong - it's empirical, but it's just not objective in the same sense as what occurs at a cellular level;



It's no big mystery since you are touching the spot; I'm talking about locating without looking nor touching.
read the last link in my signature for a proposed physiological model of the "off the body" phenomenon

[imperialtaichi]

@TGY: as long as you agree there is "on going research", we are on the same page. If science has all the answers already, we won't need to do further research do we. That's my point, we don't have an answer to everything, yet. Even if we have proposed models of mechanism, until proven beyond reasonable doubt, they are just that; proposed models of mechanism and not answers.

I am trained in science. Evidence based. But I also accept empirical observations, which I believe may be based on principles we are not aware of yet; or based on error in or observations.

[xinyidizi]

been there, done all that (100 day opening, zhuenti pu sa practice, "seeing" auras, doing projection of different kinds); did lots of "off body healing" silliness; grew up; got over it;


This is confusing.

[taai gihk yahn]

This is confusing.
reality can be that way


If you mean you succeeded in seeing auras and astral projection then your whole argument is self-contradictory but if you mean that you tried and failed or couldn't pass the basic level then I'd be glad to hear about your experiences.
saw "auras"; did "astral" travel; passed the "basic" level and then some; then realized what it all really was: a big steaming pile of delusion


In that case there might be a chance that I can help you.
if I had a dime for everyone like yourself who has made this statement...

lol, and I'm the arrogant one?

if anyone needs the help, it would b you, to get free of all your golden fetters;

fortunately, that's not my job;

[taai gihk yahn]

@TGY: as long as you agree there is "on going research", we are on the same page. If science has all the answers already, we won't need to do further research do we. That's my point, we don't have an answer to everything, yet. Even if we have proposed models of mechanism, until proven beyond reasonable doubt, they are just that; proposed models of mechanism and not answers.

I am trained in science. Evidence based. But I also accept empirical observations, which I believe may be based on principles we are not aware of yet; or based on error in or observations.

where did I ever imply that I thought science had all the answers, that research was not always on-going? you said there were things not fully expandable, I asked for an example; you gave me a few; I provided some ideas that did not require the use of "qi" or any other similar idea;

my argument is with people who claim that body-based experiences ascribed to "qi" cannot be rationally explained using physiology; that somehow any "strange" experiences one may had doing meditation / qigong belong to some 'other" type of esoteric realm rather than just being a less common area on the range of physiological possibility;

seeing auras, so-called astral projection, sensing things off the body, mice/macro cosmic orbit: these r all physiologically mediated experiences; they don't come form some where "out there"; they don't mean anything particularly special, and don't mean u have special powers when u can do them; they don't require "special" training that most people can't do, although they r to a certain degree self-fulfilling (meaning the more u want to b able to do them, the more likely it will happen); the problem is that they had all acquired a lot of baggage around them, both in terms of all the hoops people r told they must jump through before they can do them, and also their supposed meaning once one has achieved them; mostly, they r a way to get marginal personality types to feel good about being different than the main stream; inevitably, they develop a smug, exclusionary attitude, and then offer to hep the less fortunate of us who have not become awakened to the wisdom; and if u challenge this, even from perspective of having had all the above, then it's ur failing for not having really got it -

so basically, there's no objectivity at all, it's purely subjective experience, inappropriately generalized;

[xinyidizi]

saw "auras"; did "astral" travel; passed the "basic" level and then some; then realized what it all really was: a big steaming pile of delusion

If you were advanced and were capable of controlling your experiences I could suggest a few tests to clear the doubts but if you had actually passed the basic level you would have done them by now, so I don't really know if you are honest in what you are saying.

[imperialtaichi]

where did I ever imply that I thought science had all the answers, that research was not always on-going? you said there were things not fully expandable, I asked for an example; you gave me a few; I provided some ideas that did not require the use of "qi" or any other similar idea;

If you would like to continue to quote me and have meaningless arguments, at least have the courtesy of quoting me properly. Let me repeat again:

"And a lot of such observable phenomenon cannot be fully explained by contempary scientific models, yet."

Which has a totally different meaning to your "you said there were things not fully expandable" by deliberately or accidentally mis-quoting me.


@TGY: as long as you agree there is "on going research", we are on the same page. If science has all the answers already, we won't need to do further research do we. That's my point, we don't have an answer to everything, yet. Even if we have proposed models of mechanism, until proven beyond reasonable doubt, they are just that; proposed models of mechanism and not answers.

I am trained in science. Evidence based. But I also accept empirical observations, which I believe may be based on principles we are not aware of yet; or based on error in or observations.

TGY, if there is something wrong about what I have written there, point it out. Otherwise don't quote me and write a whole page of argument not related to it.

I have stated my points. So have you.

[Hendrik]

If you were advanced and were capable of controlling your experiences I could suggest a few tests in the real time zone and also some tests for auras to clear the doubts but if you had actually passed the basic level you would have done them by now, so I don't really know if you are honest in what you are saying.


Xinyidizi,

Could you please share with us what do you practice?
How do you know you passed the basic level?

Thanks!

[taai gihk yahn]

If you would like to continue to quote me and have meaningless arguments, at least have the courtesy of quoting me properly.
whoa - lighten up, Francis... ;)



Let me repeat again:

"And a lot of such observable phenomenon cannot be fully explained by contempary scientific models, yet."

Which has a totally different meaning to your "you said there were things not fully expandable" by deliberately or accidentally mis-quoting me.



TGY, if there is something wrong about what I have written there, point it out. Otherwise don't quote me and write a whole page of argument not related to it.

I have stated my points. So have you.

I'm not sure where you are coming from - all I did was ask you for examples of what you meant by something not fully explained via evidence-based approach, which you did, and I gave u some of my perspective on those things; I don't think we are arguing about the basic premise of scientific method, nor about the fact that it's an ongoing process; the other stuff was more in relation to xinyidizi's posts, they weren't directly related to what you were writing, but they are emblematic of the problem w over-reliance on subjective experience; otherwise, I see no errors to point out about your posts specifically...

[taai gihk yahn]

If you were advanced and were capable of controlling your experiences I could suggest a few tests in the real time zone and also some tests for auras to clear the doubts but if you had actually passed the basic level you would have done them by now, so I don't really know if you are honest in what you are saying.

so basically my not agreeing with your perspective = my potentially being dishonest;

this is the problem w over-reliance on subjectivity: if I disagree with the validity of the systems you describe (auras, astral travel, etc.), it's not because there is the possibility that they are invalid, it's because of my own personal short-comings; the possibility that someone could be at an "advanced" level and then realize that it is all a pile of hooey doesn't even enter into your consciousness - the only possible answer is that I wasn't doing it the "real" way, otherwise there's no possibility that I would come to the realization I have come to;

I have no doubts, I am extremely clear as to the nature of my experience; and this is based on years of practical application of things like aura reading and off-the-body work - it took a real shift in consciousness to see it all for what it really was, I had to completely let go of my self-image that was tied into it all, and eat the bitter tea; unfortunately,many people get stuck in the illusion and stay there, largely because their ego structure becomes wound up intrinsically with these notions;

[xinyidizi]

I am sorry for my tone in the last post but what made me say that is that if you were advanced how come you never tried any validation tests? This kind of test is very difficult for beginners as one needs to be fully in control of the experience but it is doable for more advanced people.

Anyhow I think it is very clear that we have chosen different paths and it's fine because we need to learn different things at different stages.

[Hendrik]

I think it is more productive to limit the qi in this discussion in the domain of tcm and tcma internal art cultivation and practice.

[nasmedicine]

I think it is more productive to limit the qi in this discussion in the domain of tcm and tcma internal art cultivation and practice.

Agreed. This post is starting to derail.

[Robinhood]

I would say TGY is just pulling your leg, from previous posts I seem to recall him doing very little standing and not being able to see any benefit.


Anyone who has done proper standing has martial benefit and knows it is not a delusion, if it was a delusion, we would not be able to use it or not use it on other people in real time, it is only the people who can't use it that think it is a delusion.

Now can we get back to talking about using it, like Henrick also suggested ?




Cheers

[guy b.]

Agreed. This post is starting to derail.

It derailed a looong time ago, about the time people started talking about qi as a thing without actually defining what they thought it was in physical terms first. Talking about correlates is not talking about the actual thing. What is qi?

I can say that xyz is a sure way to happiness and success in life. If you follow the path of xyz but don't ascribe to the 4 abc's then you are likely to go off track and end up with 123 instead of xyz, a complete mistake.

see? completely meaningless. You have to define the terms first or you are talking about nothing

[Scott R. Brown]

Not to mention that while standing may be "A" method, it is not the only method, nor is it the most productive or efficient method. So anyone making a determination based upon another's time spent standing is coming to an uninformed and naive conclusion.

[Robinhood]

Not to mention that while standing may be "A" method, it is not the only method, nor is it the most productive or efficient method. So anyone making a determination based upon another's time spent standing is coming to an uninformed and naive conclusion.


What other methods are you referring to?

[nasmedicine]

It derailed a looong time ago, about the time people started talking about qi as a thing without actually defining what they thought it was in physical terms first. Talking about correlates is not talking about the actual thing. What is qi?

I can say that xyz is a sure way to happiness and success in life. If you follow the path of xyz but don't ascribe to the 4 abc's then you are likely to go off track and end up with 123 instead of xyz, a complete mistake.

see? completely meaningless. You have to define the terms first or you are talking about nothing

By all means please lead the charge. I have tried my best.

[LoneTiger108]

It derailed a looong time ago, about the time people started talking about qi as a thing without actually defining what they thought it was in physical terms first. Talking about correlates is not talking about the actual thing. What is qi?

Qi/Hei = Energy

No matter which way we look at it, no matter how far we can take this cultivating practice, it will always amount to the same thing. Energy.

So, how many energies are we aware of these days?? Human Sciences are really delving into all this stuff and if I'm honest I would be more interested in hearing from accupunctirists and nutritionists rather than Spiritual healers or Shamans.

Reading through this thread reminds me when I challenged my friend, a Tai Chi Practitioner, to translate what his method was? I was interested because my learning at the time. Although he used the terms 'Grand Ultimate' fist he tried to tell me that the Chi character in Tai Chi was the same as Chi/energy!! This was in the late nineties so why we are still having this sort of confusion is beyond me. This is also why I like Cantonese ;)

Like you say. Define Qi/Chi/Hei.

I was taught Hei Gung as a foundation part of my Wing Chun learning and in fact it was very practical and easy to understand, feel and nurture after a pretty quick period of time. No waiting ten years.

[taai gihk yahn]

I would say TGY is just pulling your leg, from previous posts I seem to recall him doing very little standing and not being able to see any benefit.


Anyone who has done proper standing has martial benefit and knows it is not a delusion, if it was a delusion, we would not be able to use it or not use it on other people in real time, it is only the people who can't use it that think it is a delusion.
you either have crappy recall, or are being dishonest - not that it matters, I have done lots of standing (at one point ~ an hour per day), and I personally feel that I have derived significant benefit from that practice; what I don't do is tow the party line vis-a-vis "qi" cultivation;
that said, standing cultivation has nothing to do with things like aura reading and astral projection, as there are people claiming to do al that stuff who never did standing a day in their lives

so that's what I've done; how about yourself? how do we know that you aren't just "pulling our legs"? I seem to recall asking you if you have even completed Micro / macro orbit without really getting a straight answer; or perhaps my memory fails as well?


It derailed a looong time ago, about the time people started talking about qi as a thing without actually defining what they thought it was in physical terms first. Talking about correlates is not talking about the actual thing. What is qi?

I can say that xyz is a sure way to happiness and success in life. If you follow the path of xyz but don't ascribe to the 4 abc's then you are likely to go off track and end up with 123 instead of xyz, a complete mistake.

see? completely meaningless. You have to define the terms first or you are talking about nothing

here's my personal "favorite" definition:


from The Web That Has No Weaver by Ted Kaptchuk, OMD:

"Qi is not some primordial, immutable material, nor is it merely vital energy, although the word is occasionally so translated. Chinese thought does not easily distinguish between matter and energy. We might think that Qi is somewhere in between, a kind of matter on the verge of becoming energy, or energy at the point of materializing."
...
"Qi is the thread connecting all being. Qi is the common denominator of all things- from mineral to human...Qi is the fundamental quality of being and becoming."
...
"Qi is the universe's underlying plastic texture that explains change, the inexhaustible ink of the world...Qi is the cause, process, and outcome of all activity in the cosmos. Qi is the ceaseless throbbing, the substratum of the cosmos."

he seems to be referring to a universal organizing principle, which is in my estimation a reasonable way to talk about it, especially as it dovetails with more contemporary means of assessing the phenomena that "qi" describes;

works for me; anyone else?

[guy b.]

By all means please lead the charge. I have tried my best.

I think you have been a very interesting and thoughtful poster. Not culpable for derailment at all!

[guy b.]

Qi/Hei = Energy

No matter which way we look at it, no matter how far we can take this cultivating practice, it will always amount to the same thing. Energy.

So, how many energies are we aware of these days?? Human Sciences are really delving into all this stuff and if I'm honest I would be more interested in hearing from accupunctirists and nutritionists rather than Spiritual healers or Shamans.

Reading through this thread reminds me when I challenged my friend, a Tai Chi Practitioner, to translate what his method was? I was interested because my learning at the time. Although he used the terms 'Grand Ultimate' fist he tried to tell me that the Chi character in Tai Chi was the same as Chi/energy!! This was in the late nineties so why we are still having this sort of confusion is beyond me. This is also why I like Cantonese ;)

Like you say. Define Qi/Chi/Hei.

I was taught Hei Gung as a foundation part of my Wing Chun learning and in fact it was very practical and easy to understand, feel and nurture after a pretty quick period of time. No waiting ten years.

I don't think that qi is energy, that is to broad and vague a definition in my opinion. Why do you believe this to be the case?

[LoneTiger108]

"Qi is not some primordial, immutable material, nor is it merely vital energy, although the word is occasionally so translated. Chinese thought does not easily distinguish between matter and energy. We might think that Qi is somewhere in between, a kind of matter on the verge of becoming energy, or energy at the point of materializing."

works for me; anyone else?

I actually like this one :) but as I'm a simple guy I will still always use the term 'energy'!

[LoneTiger108]

I don't think that qi is energy, that is to broad and vague a definition in my opinion. Why do you believe this to be the case?

I thought you may say that...

Let me ask you this first, what affects your Chi/Hei directly?

[guy b.]

here's my personal "favorite" definition:


from The Web That Has No Weaver by Ted Kaptchuk, OMD:

"Qi is not some primordial, immutable material, nor is it merely vital energy, although the word is occasionally so translated. Chinese thought does not easily distinguish between matter and energy. We might think that Qi is somewhere in between, a kind of matter on the verge of becoming energy, or energy at the point of materializing."
...
"Qi is the thread connecting all being. Qi is the common denominator of all things- from mineral to human...Qi is the fundamental quality of being and becoming."
...
"Qi is the universe's underlying plastic texture that explains change, the inexhaustible ink of the world...Qi is the cause, process, and outcome of all activity in the cosmos. Qi is the ceaseless throbbing, the substratum of the cosmos."

he seems to be referring to a universal organizing principle, which is in my estimation a reasonable way to talk about it, especially as it dovetails with more contemporary means of assessing the phenomena that "qi" describes;

works for me; anyone else?

Is there a universal organising principle to the universe? It seems a neat idea but I don't see how it helps us understand qi in physical terms that are useful to our everyday lives

[guy b.]

I thought you may say that...

Let me ask you this first, what affects your Chi/Hei directly?

My physical state, guided by my mind

[taai gihk yahn]

I am sorry for my tone in the last post but what made me say that is that if you were advanced in astral projection how come you never tried any validation tests in the real time zone? This kind of test is very difficult for beginners as one needs to be fully in control of the experience but it is doable for more advanced people.

Anyhow I think it is very clear that we have chosen different paths and it's fine because we need to learn different things at different stages.

it wasn't your tone per se that I was taking issue with, it was your cognitive paradigm in terms of how people who advocate things like aura reading, astral projection, etc. typically handle dissent regarding these things - the typical answer is 'oh, you are not advanced enough / not doing it properly", etc.; there is no allowance for the possibility that it might be something else, that something else being no objectively verifiable process to any of it; the very fact that the tests you allude to (and not describe, which would at least be a step towards validation) can only be done by "advanced" practitioners is exactly what I am talking about: in an objective construct, the relative expertise of the tester is not the issue - the test functions regardless of who conducts it; in a subjective construct, it's the opposite; which is fine, but under those conditions, one has to allow that there is no real capacity for generaliizability, hence one has to entertain the possibility that one is delusional; furthermore, the fact that you end with the "different strokes for different folks" defense is another way of shirking an attempt to objectively assess your claims; and don't get me wrong - I'm all for subjective experiences, but again, the danger is when one generalizes onto the world as a whole;

[LoneTiger108]

My physical state, guided by my mind

No. That's you enforcing your mind onto your body, no?

[guy b.]

No. That's you enforcing your mind onto your body, no?

Intent guides qi (in an ideal world)

[guy b.]

it is just a phenomenon of energy flow which will surface in human body when the body is loose, the mind is quiet down to have only singer thought, and breathing naturally deepen. what is the big deal? with all these philosophy, thinking, mid set, science, research....believe... spiritual..... all and goes no where.

What energy flowing where?

[taai gihk yahn]

Is there a universal organising principle to the universe? It seems a neat idea but I don't see how it helps us understand qi in physical terms that are useful to our everyday lives

"qi" is a descriptor of an amalgam of life-processes - in terms of pragmatics, a TCM practitioner assesses various signs and symptoms, and synthesizes that information to determine a pattern of imbalance, basically a predictive model, and formulates a plan of treatment;

as such, any physiological process is an aspect of "qi" - energy level, body temp, digestion/elimination function, respiratory capacity, etc.; pragmatically, one can use this paradigm to self-monitor these processes, and if one is so inclined, could utilize specific qigong practices to regulate their function; bearing in mind that this is a largely culturally mediated concept, so it may be more or less pragmatic depending on the social context;

is that what you are talking about?

[Scott R. Brown]

What other methods are you referring to?

Why the variations of sitting, lying and moving! Not to mention standing on one foot, on your head, dancing, etc.

I thought these were common knowledge! :eek:

[guy b.]

"qi" is a descriptor of an amalgam of life-processes - in terms of pragmatics, a TCM practitioner assesses various signs and symptoms, and synthesizes that information to determine a pattern of imbalance, basically a predictive model, and formulates a plan of treatment;

Which life processes do you think, specifically?

This is the core of the idea

[LoneTiger108]

Intent guides qi (in an ideal world)

Really? I never knew that... :rolleyes:

I am asking 'what is qi?' What affects your qi directly? I didn't expect you to come back with 'my mind'!! If that is the only thing that affects your qi then we already have a different view on the whole thing.

[LoneTiger108]

"qi" is a descriptor of an amalgam of life-processes - in terms of pragmatics, a TCM practitioner assesses various signs and symptoms, and synthesizes that information to determine a pattern of imbalance, basically a predictive model, and formulates a plan of treatment;

as such, any physiological process is an aspect of "qi" - energy level, body temp, digestion/elimination function, respiratory capacity, etc.; pragmatically, one can use this paradigm to self-monitor these processes, and if one is so inclined, could utilize specific qigong practices to regulate their function; bearing in mind that this is a largely culturally mediated concept, so it may be more or less pragmatic depending on the social context;

is that what you are talking about?

I like this and it touches on what I'm trying to say (or get others to realize!)

[guy b.]

Really? I never knew that... :rolleyes:

I am asking 'what is qi?' What affects your qi directly? I didn't expect you to come back with 'my mind'!! If that is the only thing that affects your qi then we already have a different view on the whole thing.

Qi is awareness of and control over a specific physical thing in my opinion, i.e. the mind guides. That physical function exists whether the mind is aware of it or not. It only becomes positively useful to a person with awareness and control

[guy b.]

I like this and it touches on what I'm trying to say (or get others to realize!)

Which life processes do you think, specifically?

[Robinhood]

Why the variations of sitting, lying and moving! Not to mention standing on one foot, on your head, dancing, etc.

I thought these were common knowledge! :eek:

I think we have the troll boys here......



http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2011/053/a/f/internet_trolls_by_vanisher72-d3a5cd9.jpg

[guy b.]

I think we have the troll boys here......



http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2011/053/a/f/internet_trolls_by_vanisher72-d3a5cd9.jpg

I'd take one Scott R. Brown over a million of you

[LoneTiger108]

Which life processes do you think, specifically?

I thought I was asking the questions lol! ;) We can get onto that later...

Think about what affects us human beings every day of our lives. And remember I am trying to be as simple as possible because I am a Wing Chun student :D

Actually, I've misread your question because you are asking what I am asking you hehehe

[guy b.]

I thought I was asking the questions lol! ;) We can get onto that later...

Think about what affects us human beings every day of our lives. And remember I am trying to be as simple as possible because I am a Wing Chun student :D

You tried to switch to question asking when answers became difficult but it is my thread so I am asking the questions.

I already think I know what qi is. I am interested in what you and everyone else thinks it is. I am not in need of guidance or coaching because I am sure i am correct. Answer away

[LoneTiger108]

You tried to switch to question asking when answers became difficult but it is my thread so answer away.

Okay. Thread creators privelage and all that...

For me, and again I will try to keep it simple:

Qi is ultimately nurtured from 3 sources and what we do as Martial Artists is add another layer, a 4th source if you like, because we use movement and will to lead our qi development and cultivation.

Shall I go on, or are you on a similar path here? Can you give me the 3 sources of Qi?

[guy b.]

Okay. Thread creators privelage and all that...

For me, and again I will try to keep it simple:

Qi is ultimately nurtured from 3 sources and what we do as Martial Artists is add another layer, a 4th source if you like, because we use movement and will to lead our qi development and cultivation.

Shall I go on, or are you on a similar path here? Can you give me the 3 sources of Qi?

You haven't said anything yet. Talk physical reality please, not typical CMA over-categorisation, and then I will tell you if my belief is similar or not

[LoneTiger108]

You haven't said anything yet. Talk physical reality please, not typical CMA over-categorisation, and then I will tell you if my belief is similar or not

Okay I will try.

The 1st source of Qi is through your parents, sometime this is called 'Original Qi'. It is your natural ability to be human, your physical characteristics and habits etc.

Second source is your Environment. The surroundings you are in depict the level or quality of air you breathe, so this is sometimes called your 'Natural Qi'.

Thirdly we must consider your nutrition. Food and liquid intake, which I would call something like 'Nutritional Qi'.

Balancing these three things in your daily life will increase the Qi potential of your whole self. I think this is also very connected to TCM and why the normal complete subscription would include Accupuncture, Massage and Medicines.

Just my ten pence and I'm sure many more people here can go into far more depth on exactly what all this means!

I do know that once we stylize our practise as Martial Artists we completely change everything and begin the journey of Qi Manipulation, and in some more extreme cases we can cause long term damage to ourselves if we enter into this sort of training without balance of the 3 sources of our energy and proper guidance.

[guy b.]

Okay I will try.

The 1st source of Qi is through your parents, sometime this is called 'Original Qi'. It is your natural ability to be human, your physical characteristics and habits etc.

Second source is your Environment. The surroundings you are in depict the level or quality of air you breathe, so this is sometimes called your 'Natural Qi'.

Thirdly we must consider your nutrition. Food and liquid intake, which I would call something like 'Nutritional Qi'.

Balancing these three things in your daily life will increase the Qi potential of your whole self. I think this is also very connected to TCM and why the normal complete subscription would include Accupuncture, Massage and Medicines.

Just my ten pence and I'm sure many more people here can go into far more depth on exactly what all this means!

I do know that once we stylize our practise as Martial Artists we completely change everything and begin the journey of Qi Manipulation, and in some more extreme cases we can cause long term damage to ourselves if we enter into this sort of training without balance of the 3 sources of our energy and proper guidance.

So you think qi = personal physical characteristics + surroundings + food?

[LoneTiger108]

So you think qi = personal physical characteristics + surroundings + food?

It is a balance of all three, yes.

Then we have what we do with it as Martial Artists. Our expression of Qi.

[Robinhood]

I'd take one Scott R. Brown over a million of you

Take him, he's all yours.

[guy b.]

It is a balance of all three, yes.

Then we have what we do with it as Martial Artists. Our expression of Qi.

Respectfully, I think you are wrong

[LoneTiger108]

Respectfully, I think you are wrong

So share your ideas because, with equal respect, I am living proof of this stuff working (or not!) in tandem with my past experience and Martial Art learning.

Not much of a thread host if all you want todo is listen, say no, and not put across your views and experience :(

[Robinhood]

Here is some reading on energy

http://www.itcca.it/peterlim/neijing.htm




Cheers

[LoneTiger108]

Here is some reading on energy

http://www.itcca.it/peterlim/neijing.htm

Jing/Ging

A good example of one of the expressions of Qi using Martial Arts.

[taai gihk yahn]

I like this and it touches on what I'm trying to say (or get others to realize!)
I think that when you try to wrap your brain around it in this manner, it requires some more effort than just thinking about qi as some mystical energy; ask, to consider, that in the history of CHina / TCM, there were probably some widely divergent views on the matter, there wasn't just across the board agreement; so probably anything that anyone is saying here has been debated in a similar manner long long ago!


I think we have the troll boys here......
really? here is your very first post on this thread:

I would say TGY is just pulling your leg, from previous posts I seem to recall him doing very little standing and not being able to see any benefit.
you come on here and in your first post, make a dismissive and disparaging remark about me; hey, whatever, I'm not complaining, revile away, but I'm just pointing it out, given that you are the one raising the whole troll issue; so far, the only one demonstrating troll-like behavior here is you (of course, when I provided a refutation, you conveniently don't respond, as is typical for you);
you want to make this personal? go for it - I'll flame away with you until the place burns down; OTOH, you want to leave it alone, as I've made a very specific effort to do with you in the past, I will drop it right here; your call;

[guy b.]

So share your ideas because, with equal respect, I am living proof of this stuff working (or not!) in tandem with my past experience and Martial Art learning.

Not much of a thread host if all you want todo is listen, say no, and not put across your views and experience :(

I don't have time just now, will reply tomorrow

[taai gihk yahn]

Here is some reading on energy

http://www.itcca.it/peterlim/neijing.htm




Cheers

it's not a bad article at all - Peter Lim has one of the more comprehensive taiji websites, and was probably one of the earliest reliable sources on line for this sort of thing; he writes well and articulates clearly; you actually have to apply some mental energy to follow what he writes, a good thing;

[taai gihk yahn]

I don't have time just now, will reply tomorrow

would be interested in your perspective for certain

[Hendrik]

it's not a bad article at all - Peter Lim has one of the more comprehensive taiji websites, and was probably one of the earliest reliable sources on line for this sort of thing; he writes well and articulates clearly; you actually have to apply some mental energy to follow what he writes, a good thing;



Internal Jing

Internal Jing is where Jing is derived from the three internal elements of essence (jing), vital energy (qi), and spirit (shen). This kind of jing is effected through the strengthening of the essence to provide the generation of qi which nourishes both the musculature, bones, organs and the mind which is the seat of the spirit.

The body's essence (jing) is built up to ensure a plenteous supply, this is transformed into qi which nourishes and provides the vitality to the musculature, bones, organs and also the mind. Qi in traditional Chinese medicinal theory is the basis of life in the body and its presence and relative volume determines the health and vitality of the body. Qi itself is directed by the Mind/Spirit which is itself dependent on qi for its mental capability.

The Spirit is an expression of the thought, knowledge, feelings and intent (mental focus) of the mind. A strong spirit makes for clear thought, enhanced perception, better intent (Yi) which are assets to all situations, including martial ones. Intent brings about the physiological changes which opens the blood and qi flow along the path and at the point of focus. Hence the theory the mind leads and the blood and qi follows.

With increase circulation and qi flow, the musculature attains better tonus which results in the 'filled' feeling that is experienced by those who do some form of internal work (nei gong). It is this increased tonus and tenacity that serves as the origin of Internal Jing. It gives Internal Jing its 'propelled' and 'hydraulic' characteristics. This increase qi flow is directed by the mind which results in the creation of Internal Jing. The musculature remains relaxed with no undue tension.

Internal Jing transfers the strength smoothly into the opponent, not relying on hard impact to damage. This transfer of energy/force into the opponent's body and structure can cause injuries that are not obvious externally.




the above is an example of people who has no idea what Jing is and talked about Jing in clever words. in fact it is misleading. since they dont have it how can they tell you what it is?

[taai gihk yahn]

the above is an example of people who has no idea what Jing is and talked about Jing in clever words. in fact it is misleading. since they dont have it how can they tell you what it is?
this is the side of you that comes across as arrogant; if you want to disagree with what he states, that's totally your purview; but you always have to do this internal one-upmanship and decree that he doesn't "have it"; personally, I think basing your assessment on what someone "has" or doesn't have based on what they write is at best a perilous endeavor - the only way u know who has what is to touch hands - he who has it will be standing over the one who hasn't got it; otherwise it's all speculation;

[imperialtaichi]

@guy b.

As mentioned before, term Chi/Qi is used under different context, even your Chinese Stirfry ;)

But if under the context of "Yi/Intent leads Qi"

It is "something" that can be controlled by the mind, seems to be everywhere, and seems to exert a "magnetic-like" attraction on living organisms. As it moves, it drags your body along with it. And when you project it outside your body, or moves the Qi outside your body, other people/living systems can often feel the "magnetic-like" pull as well.

True, I am only describing it's attribute, and not what IT is; because I don't know what IT really is.

[taai gihk yahn]

True, I am only describing it's attribute, and not what IT is; because I don't know what IT really is.
in case you never read the link I suggested (I edited out some of it, just to focus on the one aspect we r talking about):


Multifunctional Merkel cells: Their roles in electromagnetic reception (and) Reiki...
Summary
Merkel cells are located in glabrous and hairy skin and in some mucosa. They are characterized by dense-core secretory granules and cytoskeletal filaments. They are attached to neighboring keratinocytes by desmosomes and contain melanosomes similar to keratinocytes. They are excitable cells in close contact with sensory nerve endings but their function is still unclear. In this review, following roles are attributed for the first time to the Merkel cells: (1) melanosomes in Merkel cells may be involved in mammalian magnetoreception. In this model melanosome as a biological magnetite is connected by cytoskeletal filaments to mechanically gated ion channels embedded in the Merkel cell membrane. The movement of melanosome with the changing electromagnetic field may open ion channels directly producing a receptor potential that can be transmitted to brain via sensory neurons...(3) Brain–Merkel cell connection is bi-directional and Merkel cells not only absorb but also radiate the electromagnetic frequencies. Hence, efferent aspects of the palmar and plantar Merkel nerve endings may form the basis of the biofield modalities such as Reiki, therapeutic touch and telekinesis. ...In conclusion, Merkel cells are multifunctional cells which may close the gap between orthodox medicine and complementary medicine such as acupuncture and Reiki."

[Hendrik]

this is the side of you that comes across as arrogant; if you want to disagree with what he states, that's totally your purview; but you always have to do this internal one-upmanship and decree that he doesn't "have it"; personally, I think basing your assessment on what someone "has" or doesn't have based on what they write is at best a perilous endeavor - the only way u know who has what is to touch hands - he who has it will be standing over the one who hasn't got it; otherwise it's all speculation;



you are right. I am arrogant.

[taai gihk yahn]

you are right. I am arrogant.

try to read more closely - I said that you come across as arrogant; you may not be, and you may not intend it as such, but that's the result when you basically state unequivocally that someone doesn't "have it" based on what they write; I don't see why this is so hard to understand;

furthermore, this mock capitulatory stance you take, where you agree without really agreeing, is disingenuous; I don't care if you agree with me or not; I'm just trying to help you with your social skills, given that I think if you were a bit more circumspect, you might find more common ground with more people; and hey, again, you may not care at all about how you are perceived, that's fair enough;

[Hendrik]

try to read more closely - I said that you come across as arrogant; you may not be, and you may not intend it as such, but that's the result when you basically state unequivocally that someone doesn't "have it" based on what they write; I don't see why this is so hard to understand;

furthermore, this mock capitulatory stance you take, where you agree without really agreeing, is disingenuous; I don't care if you agree with me or not; I'm just trying to help you with your social skills, given that I think if you were a bit more circumspect, you might find more common ground with more people; and hey, again, you may not care at all about how you are perceived, that's fair enough;


may be i should say. internal jing doesnt work this way.

it doest make sense for those who know what is a gun powder writting on how wood dust is gun powder. if you believe in that type of writing, that only means you dont know what is gun powder, never seen it before.


for the record , Jing is the change of force similar to acceleration is the change of speed. Thus, Jing is force based. Writting about jing without the force based tell how close one know Jing.


has it or not got nothing to do with touch hand.


ok. you are right.

the issue here is the presentation is totally wrong and misleading. so how do you address that?

[Scott R. Brown]

I think we have the troll boys here......



http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2011/053/a/f/internet_trolls_by_vanisher72-d3a5cd9.jpg

Of course it is easy to attack the person and not address the comment. It is also much easier to blindly follow the accepted teachings concerning qi and not use ones reason to sort the fantasy from the real.



I'd take one Scott R. Brown over a million of you

Wisely said!!;):D


Take him, he's all yours.

Foolishly said!!!:p


try to read more closely - I said that you come across as arrogant

No..he is arrogant, and he finally admitted it!


may be i should say. internal jing doesnt work this way.

it doest make sense for those who know what is a gun powder writting on how wood dust is gun powder. if you believe in that type of writing, that only means you dont know what is gun powder, never seen it before.


for the record , Jing is the change of force similar to acceleration is the change of speed. Thus, Jing is force based. Writting about jing without the force based tell how close one know Jing.


has it or not got nothing to do with touch hand.

Jing is just a word used to describe an effect, it is NOT the effect itself. To confuse the definition with the effect and blindly adhere to a limited definition forces one to conform their experience to the definition.

This defeats the purpose of the definition, which is to serve the effect/experience, NOT to to enslave true experience to an arbitrary term! Words are tools, meant to serve us, not enslave us!

Experiences may be defined differently by different people; the act of denigrating others for not conforming to one's own definition (or a traditional definition) of any effect demonstrates that one does not fully understand effects, reality, words, or definitions. This kind of person's narrow views hinder their own understanding and the understanding of those who fail to question the definitions they use.

To blindly follow another's definition is to enslave oneself to another's experience and reality!

Jing is just a term used to explain an effect. In every culture identical words are used differently from one person to another. The same is so for Jing! One person's accepted definition is not the final word or necessarily the TRUER word on it!

[Hendrik]

hey WCners,

Time to shut this thread down. hahaha

[YouKnowWho]

ok. you are right.

the issue here is the presentation is totally wrong and misleading. so how do you address that?
It's not whether your opinion is right or wrong. It's whether you can make others to accept your opinion.

When the "freedom fighter" 李敖(Li Ao) gave a speech in The Beijing University, he did not say that the communist party was bad. He said that he is willing to give up his freedom as long as the communist party is willing to follow it's consititution, so people will have freedom on

- get together
- publish,
- travel,
- religion,
- ...

The following Li Ao speech can help us to improve "communication skill" big time. What I like about his skill is he always has fact to support whatever he intend to say.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeAki05r8ZI&feature=related

[Hendrik]

When the freedom fighter 李敖(Li Ao) gave a speech in The Beijing University, he did not say that the communist party was bad. He said that he is willing to give up his freedom as long as the communist party is willing to follow it's consititution, so people will have freedom on

- get together
- publish,
- travel,
- religion,
- ...

It's not whether your opinion is right or wrong. It's whether you can make others to accept your opinion.

The following Li Ao speech can help us to improve "communication skill" big time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeAki05r8ZI&feature=related


good point.


let face this issue of jing.
it is a fact that this writer similar to lots of writers doesnt know what they are talking about. it is misleading and actually make a bad impression which cannot deliver.

now, here is in a Kung Fu forum with lots of people seriously want to learn reading the post.
again, it got nothing to do with OPINION. it got all to do with What is the FACT.

do you care for to make others to accept your opinion or do you care for those 200 WCners behind the scene reading the post to have a proper information.

and sure, there are plenty of people will never accept this particular jing fact because they themself claim to be expert but also dont know what they are talking about. and they are not going to accept your opinion . simply because they are on the same boat with the writer. accept the fact of fajing means accept they are ignorance.

This is not a political situation as Lee Aou in Beijing. but a simple Kung Fu forum and a simple fact.


What will you write ?

[Scott R. Brown]

hey WCners,

Time to shut this thread down. hahaha

Of course, as soon as you cannot compete intellectually it is time for you to run!:rolleyes:

Is your purpose to expand your own understanding and the understanding of others by interacting with others with different experiences and ideas, or is it to reinforce your own views and enslave others to your own narrow understanding?

[Scott R. Brown]

good point.


let face this issue of jing.
it is a fact that this writer similar to lots of writers doesnt know what they are talking about. it is misleading and actually make a bad impression which cannot deliver.

now, here is in a Kung Fu forum with lots of people seriously want to learn reading the post.
again, it got nothing to do with OPINION. it got all to do with What is the FACT.



What will you write ?

No, it is not about fact! It is about what each person accepts as fact, and in your mind only one view, YOURS, properly understands what is fact and what is not fact.

This is an error. If you cannot properly understand your own experiences and continue to define your personal experiences according to a narrow definition, you will never gain an advanced understanding of any topic under discussion.

As I taught you many years ago, and you ignored, if you cannot express your experiences and understanding in your own words, you are still a novice on any particular topic.

Anyone can blindly repeat the writings and teaching of others, that is merely a copy and paste life, that is not true understanding.

It is fine for you to impose such views on yourself, but to encourage others to follow such a naive path is to drag others into your own pit of ignorance!

[YouKnowWho]

do you care for to make others to accept your opinion or do you care for those 200 WCners behind the scene reading the post to have a proper information. ... What will you write ?

I don't have that much ambition as you do. If I were a WC master (which I'm not), I'll suggest those 200 WCners behind the scene,

"If you want to learn a fight art, try to fight as much as you can when you are still young."

[Hendrik]

I don't have that much ambition as you do. I'll never use words on others if I don't like others to use those words on me.

it is not about ambition, it is about responsibility on what one is saying.

is it ok to give face even in a forum where fact can be present , just to win a popularity contest?

[Hendrik]

No, it is not about fact! It is about what each person accepts as fact, and in your mind only one view, YOURS, properly understands what is fact and what is not fact.

This is an error. If you cannot properly understand your own experiences and continue to define your personal experiences according to a narrow definition, you will never gain an advanced understanding of any topic under discussion.

As I taught you many years ago, and you ignored, if you cannot express your experiences and understanding in your own words, you are still a novice on any particular topic.

Anyone can blindly repeat the writings and teaching of others, that is merely a copy and paste life, that is not true understanding.

It is fine for you to impose such views on yourself, but to encourage others to follow such a naive path is to drag others into your own pit of ignorance!


what is Jing and internal Jing? it is a physical phenomenon so please dont give me all kind of words but nothing.

Why dont you share the keys of jing?

[YouKnowWho]

it is not about ambition, it is about responsibility on what one is saying.
I used to think that I have the "responsibility" for the "world peace" and "new world order" too.

[Scott R. Brown]

what is Jing and internal Jing? it is a physical phenomenon so please dont give me all kind of words but nothing.

Why dont you share the keys of jing?

Why don't you share them in your own words, instead of aping the words of others?

I don't care about the word Jing, it is a means to get lost in theory and avoid reality!

If one wishes to philosophize about fighting and finds it enjoyable that is fine, but to confuse philosophizing with actual fighting is the same thing as confusing being an armchair quarterback with being a real NFL quarterback!

One has the real experience, the other just pretends!

[Robinhood]

what is Jing and internal Jing? it is a physical phenomenon so please dont give me all kind of words but nothing.

Why dont you share the keys of jing?

He does not know what internal jing is, he just likes to disrupt threads with a lot of empty talk, and say nothing.

Maybe if we ignore him he will go away.



Cheers

[GlennR]

hey WCners,

Time to shut this thread down. hahaha

Getting a bit too hot for you is it my old friend???

Why dont you cry to Gene again?

[imperialtaichi]

in case you never read the link I suggested (I edited out some of it, just to focus on the one aspect we r talking about):


Multifunctional Merkel cells: Their roles in electromagnetic reception (and) Reiki...
Summary
Merkel cells are located in glabrous and hairy skin and in some mucosa. They are characterized by dense-core secretory granules and cytoskeletal filaments. They are attached to neighboring keratinocytes by desmosomes and contain melanosomes similar to keratinocytes. They are excitable cells in close contact with sensory nerve endings but their function is still unclear. In this review, following roles are attributed for the first time to the Merkel cells: (1) melanosomes in Merkel cells may be involved in mammalian magnetoreception. In this model melanosome as a biological magnetite is connected by cytoskeletal filaments to mechanically gated ion channels embedded in the Merkel cell membrane. The movement of melanosome with the changing electromagnetic field may open ion channels directly producing a receptor potential that can be transmitted to brain via sensory neurons...(3) Brain–Merkel cell connection is bi-directional and Merkel cells not only absorb but also radiate the electromagnetic frequencies. Hence, efferent aspects of the palmar and plantar Merkel nerve endings may form the basis of the biofield modalities such as Reiki, therapeutic touch and telekinesis. ...In conclusion, Merkel cells are multifunctional cells which may close the gap between orthodox medicine and complementary medicine such as acupuncture and Reiki."

Very interesting hypothesis. Further investigation warranted. Could very well be related to the observed phenomenon.

But is that ABSOLUTE prove of what Qi is? The way we can say "lightling" is a stream of electrons? I am not going to pretend that I know beyond resonable doubt.

[GlennR]

Of course, as soon as you cannot compete intellectually it is time for you to run!:rolleyes:

Careful., he'll accuse you of bullying and cry for Gene to step in.


Is your purpose to expand your own understanding and the understanding of others by interacting with others with different experiences and ideas, or is it to reinforce your own views and enslave others to your own narrow understanding?

Id suggest the line is bold is what he's hoping to achieve.

[Hendrik]

He does not know what internal jing is, he just likes to disrupt threads with a lot of empty talk, and say nothing.

Maybe if we ignore him he will go away.



Cheers


Yes, I agree with you.

[Scott R. Brown]

He does not know what internal jing is, he just likes to disrupt threads with a lot of empty talk, and say nothing.

Maybe if we ignore him he will go away.



Cheers

The foolishness of your comments, demonstrates your own ignorance more than it reveals my own!

If one wishes to be an accomplished martial artist, all that is required is to train hard and train frequently over an extended period of time.

This is what occurred first, THEN the experts who did this thought carefully about what they accomplished and came up with words and concepts to express their experiences in order to share them with others.

The words used were chosen according the the culture and level of knowledge available at the time. To confine oneself to these ancient ways of viewing experience is foolish and unproductive. We do not do it when it comes to medicine, we do not do it when it comes to aeronautics, engineering, diet, etc.

That is not to say there is not some valuable information available from the old ways, but they are not the final word on anything.

The reason I avoid discussing these terms is not because I am not familiar with them, it is because I have matured past them, and do not allow the archaic terms and their modern misunderstanding and misapplication of them define my direct experience.

One of the common errors of some people is to confuse a theory or principle with its practical application. Just because something is old and mysterious sounding does not make it special, complicated or necessarily right.

If one wants to understand the processes that occurs within the generation of power, all they need do is train hard, frequently and for a long period of time, and then use their own intelligence to investigate what they experience directly for themselves.

The experiences of others may be helpful, but to conform ones own direct experience to a limited traditional definition is to rob oneself of independent understanding. If one does not possess direct and independent experience then one is still a novice and does not have much authority on the subject they pretend to be an expert on.

There is a difference between the person who reads a treatise detailing the taste of an orange and then tries to claim expertise on the taste and one who has actually tasted an orange. The one is merely an expert on what others have said upon the matter, there other is an expert on the matter.

Those who have spent hours, days, years training their qi are NOT significantly better fighters or athletes then those who have not. This is a demonstrable fact. In fact, I challenge anyone to find a significantly large group of elite athletes that participate in any form of qigong training and demonstrate that such training leads to superior performance.

If elite athletes could be demonstrated, factually, to have more developed qi preservation and utilization, it would reveal that qigong exercises are a waste of time, and that qi development is cultivated by hard, frequent training over a long period of time.

This is my argument! If you wish to avoid being a troll yourself, address my point and not your misrepresentation of my motivation!

[imperialtaichi]

No, it is not about fact! It is about what each person accepts as fact, and in your mind only one view, YOURS, properly understands what is fact and what is not fact.

This is an error. If you cannot properly understand your own experiences and continue to define your personal experiences according to a narrow definition, you will never gain an advanced understanding of any topic under discussion.

Generalizing and not directed at anyone...

but I ABSOLUTELY agree!

[Scott R. Brown]

Careful., he'll accuse you of bullying and cry for Gene to step in.

A clear misunderstanding of history!

A valid complaint to authority is worth making, even in the face of ridicule from the peanut gallery!:p

[Scott R. Brown]

Generalizing and not directed at anyone...

but I ABSOLUTELY agree!

Thank you for understanding my point.

The thing is, all beginners require the definitions of others to guide them. These definitions, of their teachers should, eventually, lead to their own independent understanding.

As long as one does not have an independent understanding, they are a novice. That should not be confused with a lack of physical skill, however.

One may certainly be a blind follower, lacking understanding of the processes that lead to their expertise physically, but physical expertise should not be confused with an independent understanding of how this expertise occurred.

[Hendrik]

So, Qi is Qi. Jing is Jing, they are different phenomenon is different domain.



1. Qi Qi Qi, better becareful what you are dealing with.

As for can Yi lead Qi? and Qi transport the physical limb?

that is conditional not un conditional.

The fact is one must not use Yi or intention to lead the Qi , before the Qi is charge up to a certain level. without that level of fullness. leading Qi with intention is brute force and will cause issue such as qi stuck at certain location or as it called Pien Cha or side track. one needs a special Qi leading handling to lead the Qi back to its natural path. and it is very difficult to fine a doctor of such expertise.

To lead Qi with intention and let the Qi transport the physical is even one step further then just leading the Qi to flow in its medirians.


Is sending Qi out possible? yes. but that is draining, not to mention, one might take in Sickness Qi if one messing around Qi sending and recieving. Thus, it is best to never do such kind of practice. the safe practice is one only grow one's qi and improve one's own circulation naturally without messing around with sending Qi such as in some healing practice.




2. Jing Jing Jing internal Jing.


Jing is defined as the change of Force or strenght, similar to acceleration is the changes of speed. one needs strength or force or power based to produce Jing.

it is called internal Jing because one uses Qi to condition the physical body to develop or transform a physical body to be able to handle the Changes of force better, smoother, and more efficient.

Thus, Qi is a second order factor.

those who has no training on the handling of force change of Jing generation /handling will not be able to have jing handling. disregard of the Qi cultivation. how much Taiji solo one practice and how much Daoist philosophy one can recite. that is an irony fact.



3, Thus, there is no Qi blast. but force vectors manupulation support by a Qi developed/ transform physical body. it is not a philosophy but a technology with solid process step to develop internal Jin.

[xinyidizi]

I respect science and hope that very soon better discoveries can be made in this field but without the right understanding of the old knowledge you won't be able to connect them to anything.

[Scott R. Brown]

So, Qi is Qi. Jing is Jing, they are different phenomenon is different domain.



1. Qi Qi Qi, better becareful what you are dealing with.

As for can Yi lead Qi? and Qi transport the physical limb?

that is conditional not un conditional.

The fact is one must not use Yi or intention to lead the Qi , before the Qi is charge up to a certain level. without that level of fullness. leading Qi with intention is brute force and will cause issue such as qi stuck at certain location or as it called Pien Cha or side track.

To lead Qi with intention and let the Qi transport the physical is even one step further then just leading the Qi to flow in its medirians.


Is sending Qi out possible? yes. but that is draining, not to mention, one might take in Sickness Qi if one messing around Qi sending and recieving. Thus, it is best to never do such kind of practice. the safe practice is one only grow one's qi and improve one's own circulation naturally without messing around with sending Qi such as in some healing practice.




2. Jing Jing Jing internal Jing.


Jing is defined as the change of Force or strenght, similar to acceleration is the changes of speed. one needs strength or force or power based to produce Jing.

it is called internal Jing because one uses Qi to condition the physical body to develop or transform a physical body to be able to handle the Changes of force better, smoother, and more efficient.

Thus, Qi is a second order factor.

those who has no training the handling of force change of Jing generation /handling will not be able to have jing handling. disregard of the Qi cultivation. that is a irony fact.



3, Thus, there is no Qi blast. but force vectors manupulation support by a Qi developed/ transform physical body. it is not a philosophy but a technology with solid process step to develop internal Jin.

I agree with much of this, however, I would also argue it is theory only and not necessarily an accurate description of what occurs.

It is superfluous to becoming an elite, or even mediocre, fighter/athlete.

I agree that one must be careful when using yi to move qi, because one can just as easily force the qi, which leads to some of the problems you mention.

So, the word "leading" is an accurate description from one perspective, "guiding" may be another descriptive term, however it may also be problematic. As long as one guides or leads gently, and does not force, qi will flow naturally, but to force it will influence qi to flow against its natural tendency and this will cause problems.

Qi will flow naturally according to its nature if we allow it too. The best thing to do is to work on removing obstacles allowing it to move according to its nature. In which case, leading or guiding it is unnecessary!

[Scott R. Brown]

Pick up a random card from a deck and put it somewhere in your room without looking at it. Go out of your body and project to your room and view the card. This is a difficult exercise but doable if you are skilled enough. Personally I didn't do it by using a card deck but did it by using random numbers I had written on pieces on paper. If you are not skilled enough though, you can't blame the old spiritual systems and hide your failure by calling them delusional and connecting things you are not skilled enough to understand to some scientific findings. I respect science and hope that very soon better discoveries can be made in this field but without the right understanding of the old knowledge you won't be able to connect them to anything.

How many times out of 100 are you accurate? A skill has no value if it cannot be repeated consistently over time.

It has been awhile, but I recall a study that found psychics are only accurate approximately 10% of the time. This is not a percentage that carries much value. Even 50% accuracy is no better than a coin toss.

So, as a game it may be fine, but in practical terms, consistency over time is what carries practical value.

[nasmedicine]

Qi will flow naturally according to its nature if we allow it too. The best thing to do is to work on removing obstacles allowing it to move according to its nature. In which case, leading or guiding it is unnecessary!

This is key, however (please correct me if I'm wrong) this doesn't contradict anything that Hendriks has written in the past, specifically I'm referring to his writing on Yik Kam Transform. Furthermore, I was under the impression that all internal styles shared this notion. Right?

[Robinhood]

The foolishness of your comments, demonstrates your own ignorance more than it reveals my own!

If one wishes to be an accomplished martial artist, all that is required is to train hard and train frequently over an extended period of time.

This is what occurred first, THEN the experts who did this thought carefully about what they accomplished and came up with words and concepts to express their experiences in order to share them with others.

The words used were chosen according the the culture and level of knowledge available at the time. To confine oneself to these ancient ways of viewing experience is foolish and unproductive. We do not do it when it comes to medicine, we do not do it when it comes to aeronautics, engineering, diet, etc.

That is not to say there is not some valuable information available from the old ways, but they are not the final word on anything.

The reason I avoid discussing these terms is not because I am not familiar with them, it is because I have matured past them, and do not allow the archaic terms and their modern misunderstanding and misapplication of them define my direct experience.

One of the common errors of some people is to confuse a theory or principle with its practical application. Just because something is old and mysterious sounding does not make it special, complicated or necessarily right.

If one wants to understand the processes that occurs within the generation of power, all they need do is train hard, frequently and for a long period of time, and then use their own intelligence to investigate what they experience directly for themselves.

The experiences of others may be helpful, but to conform ones own direct experience to a limited traditional definition is to rob oneself of independent understanding. If one does not possess direct and independent experience then one is still a novice and does not have much authority on the subject they pretend to be an expert on.

There is a difference between the person who reads a treatise detailing the taste of an orange and then tries to claim expertise on the taste and one who has actually tasted an orange. The one is merely an expert on what others have said upon the matter, there other is an expert on the matter.

Those who have spent hours, days, years training their qi are NOT significantly better fighters or athletes then those who have not. This is a demonstrable fact. In fact, I challenge anyone to find a significantly large group of elite athletes that participate in any form of qigong training and demonstrate that such training leads to superior performance.

If elite athletes could be demonstrated, factually, to have more developed qi preservation and utilization, it would reveal that qigong exercises are a waste of time, and that qi development is cultivated by hard, frequent training over a long period of time.

This is my argument! If you wish to avoid being a troll yourself, address my point and not your misrepresentation of my motivation!

Spoken like a true external person, I am not advocating chi gives more power than lifting weights, that is not what we are saying.

It is more about efficiency of energy, than raw power, since you already have made it clear that you have not done the necessary training to know what we are talking about, your view does not mean much as far as internal jing is concerned.

Just keep up your weight training, and hope in old age it works. Lol



Cheers

[Hendrik]

Spoken like a true external person, I am not advocating chi gives more power than lifting weights, that is not what we are saying.

It is more about efficiency of energy, than raw power, since you already have made it clear that you have not done the necessary training to know what we are talking about, your view does not mean much as far as internal jing is concerned.

Just keep up your weight training, and hope in old age it works. Lol



Cheers



let it be. he is who he is.

[Scott R. Brown]

This is key, however (please correct me if I'm wrong) this doesn't contradict anything that Hendriks has written in the past, specifically I'm referring to his writing on Yik Kam Transform. Furthermore, I was under the impression that all internal styles shared this notion. Right?

My grief with Hendrik is not the details, it is the absolutist attitude and his reluctance or inability to accept alternate descriptions of the same experiences/effects.

There is not only one way to express these processes. Just because I understand them in the manner that he expresses them, the traditionally accepted Chinese methodology, does not mean I accept that method as an entirely accurate description. It is merely one way out of many to express identical experiences.

These are NOT concepts exclusive to the Chinese culture, they are universal principles expressed differently throughout history according to each specific historical period and culture. Even Qi is not an entirely Chinese concept. It is found in most mystical traditions, it is just experienced differently according to the culture and foundational belief systems of the people describing it.

Hendrik does a dis-service to others he is presuming to help and/or educate, by blindly adhering to a narrow description of universal principles. It demonstrates his limited understanding and insight upon topics he presents himself as an expert upon.

He may have some knowledge of the Chinese methodology, but that fact he cannot seem to understand these are universal principles expressed differently cross-culturally demonstrates his narrow experience and understanding of the principles. He appears to have book knowledge so to speak, but limited practical knowledge, of what I have been saying to him for years now, or it would be obvious to him. Therefore I conclude that he conforms his experiences to the traditional teachings, instead of allowing the traditional teachings to guide him to independent understanding free of the limitations of tradition.

[Scott R. Brown]

Spoken like a true external person, I am not advocating chi gives more power than lifting weights, that is not what we are saying.

It is more about efficiency of energy, than raw power, since you already have made it clear that you have not done the necessary training to know what we are talking about, your view does not mean much as far as internal jing is concerned.

Just keep up your weight training, and hope in old age it works. Lol



Cheers

Spoken like a truly ignorant person!

Any elite athlete understands how to use their energy efficiently absent qigong training! I have been an elite athlete, something most martial artists, haven't been!

It is part of any expertise in any activity. I refer you to Chuang Tzu's Butcher!

Do you think an Olympic Diver, a Football Lineman, and Ballet Dancer, an Opera Singer, an elite Potter, a Mixed Martial Artist does not understand efficiency of movement?

Save your ignorant comments for your peanut gallery!

[Hendrik]

Spoken like a truly ignorant person!

Any elite athlete understands how to use their energy efficiently absent qigong training!

Too bad different type of energy.

[Robinhood]

Spoken like a truly ignorant person!

Any elite athlete understands how to use their energy efficiently absent qigong training! I have been an elite athlete, something most martial artists, haven't been!

It is part of any expertise in any activity. I refer you to Chuang Tzu's Butcher!

Do you think an Olympic Diver, a Football Lineman, and Ballet Dancer, an Opera Singer, an elite Potter, a Mixed Martial Artist does not understand efficiency of movement?

Save your ignorant comments for your peanut gallery!


You still don't get it, we are not talking about athletic efficiency , we are talking about something you don't have a clue about, so that makes you the ignorant one.

Why don't you give it a rest, you can't talk about something that you have no experience with.

When we want to talk about external training your view will hold more weight.
Since most everyone here has trained externally already, we are familiar with the benefits of hard long external training and is is not what we are talking about here.

See Ya

[No_Know]

What is it?

Simple explanations only please.

I think I know what it is but I would like to hear what other people think it is also. I will post my definition after a few replies.

I No_Know, however, I think qi might be considered to be something like frequency modulation, on a quark level-allowing for interaction outside the Human body and greater efficiency of atomic/cellular structures within a Human body.

No_Know

[nasmedicine]

I No_Know, however, I think qi might be considered to be something like frequency modulation, on a quark level-allowing for interaction outside the Human body and greater efficiency of atomic/cellular structures within a Human body.

No_Know

frequency/vibration definitely has something to do with the equation, however at what level and at what frequency is much debatable.

[Shadow_warrior8]

Can your elite athelete do this?

Hard qigong
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTTSXx1ks0I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEOSkqGUK-M&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PdvZDwK9vA&feature=related

Qigong Healing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ap7WZX_xc8M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGIN0G9JFss&feature=related

Nei Gong
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOK3HUj75Gs&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVNvzZ24JmE&feature=related

[anerlich]

Maybe if we ignore him he will go away.


Hasn't worked with Hendrik. Or you, for that matter.

[Shadow_warrior8]

What is qi, yi, energy?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufVjdvRw4LM&feature=related

[taai gihk yahn]

Very interesting hypothesis. Further investigation warranted. Could very well be related to the observed phenomenon.
exactly - it could be; but it does need investigation; point is that it is an inclusive perspective: it acknowledges the subjective experience people describe, but it conjectures a physiologically observable substrate for it;


But is that ABSOLUTE prove of what Qi is? The way we can say "lightling" is a stream of electrons? I am not going to pretend that I know beyond resonable doubt.
it's not stating what "qi" is per se, because there is no one "thing" for there to be; but it is providing an hypothesis for how people perceive one of the commonly described aspects (that feeling of pressure or fullness like when doing a "qi" ball) that to do date does not have a physiological explanation;

[imperialtaichi]

it's not stating what "qi" is per se, because there is no one "thing" for there to be; but it is providing an hypothesis for how people perceive one of the commonly described aspects (that feeling of pressure or fullness like when doing a "qi" ball) that to do date does not have a physiological explanation;

Agree.

I will read up on the link when I get a chance.

[Scott R. Brown]

Can your elite athelete do this?

Hard qigong
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTTSXx1ks0I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEOSkqGUK-M&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PdvZDwK9vA&feature=related

Qigong Healing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ap7WZX_xc8M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGIN0G9JFss&feature=related

Nei Gong
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOK3HUj75Gs&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVNvzZ24JmE&feature=related

It is not a question of whether they do, it is a question of whether they, or anyone else could. The answer is yes!


You still don't get it, we are not talking about athletic efficiency , we are talking about something you don't have a clue about, so that makes you the ignorant one.

Why don't you give it a rest, you can't talk about something that you have no experience with.

When we want to talk about external training your view will hold more weight.
Since most everyone here has trained externally already, we are familiar with the benefits of hard long external training and is is not what we are talking about here.

See Ya

No, I get it, it is you who doesn't get it!

You cannot demonstrate any clear benefit to the practice of the circulation of qi that cannot be demonstrated absent the traditional Chinese methodology.

One must demonstrate a practical benefit of qigong that only it can produce, and this can not be done. Anything argued to have been the sole accomplishment of qigong can be demonstrated through other non-qigong methodology.

Since this is a martial arts forum, please demonstrate how qigong allows one to surpass the physical abilities one may obtain by merely hard consistent training over time. You cannot do so! No one is able to do so!

Therefore a reasonable person concludes there is nothing special concerning qigong training Even those who profess a long and healthier life due to qigong cannot demonstrate it to be the sole factor that caused the result absent other contributing factors.

That is because qigong falls under the heading, generally speaking, as magical thinking.

That is not to say there are absolutely no benefits to practicing qigong, only that it is merely one of many methodologies capable of providing identical benefits.

And Hendricks descriptions are only one way of describing the effects.

[imperialtaichi]

Can your elite athelete do this?

Hard qigong
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTTSXx1ks0I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEOSkqGUK-M&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PdvZDwK9vA&feature=related

Hello SW8, these are truly amazing demonstrations. I am not taking any credit away, these are truly great skills/techniques; nor am I arguing with you in any way. Just some thoughts thats all.

first one: what whould happen if someone else is holding the drill?
second one: again, if someone else is holding the bat?
third one: the master talks about "bringing the testicals up" and the medical specialist talks about involving involuntary muscles. To be able to have such control, is that Qi?

I'm just trying to be objective, and look at different angles. Not trying to argue.

[Shadow_warrior8]

Hello SW8, these are truly amazing demonstrations. I am not taking any credit away, these are truly great skills/techniques; nor am I arguing with you in any way. Just some thoughts thats all.

first one: what whould happen if someone else is holding the drill?
second one: again, if someone else is holding the bat?
third one: the master talks about "bringing the testicals up" and the medical specialist talks about involving involuntary muscles. To be able to have such control, is that Qi?

I'm just trying to be objective, and look at different angles. Not trying to argue.

Hi John,

its great to chat and share.

Well the truth is, ask any person who has serious searched for answers beyond the so called norm, and you will find out that, we actually dont know as much as we think we know

These links will help start the journey
http://www.amazon.com/Energy-Medicine-Scientific-James-Oschman/dp/0443062617

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFN32U69LBk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZJcUHF83S8&feature=related

Qi awareness and mindfulness is a very old thing, and the hindus, chinese, koreans, japanese and even the western cultures have it- in the form of hermetics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermeticism
It was a way of life, a way of seeing things, outside and inside, a way to understand energy. Chinese talk about the 3 treasures, and people like daniel reid, bruce frantzis, ken cohen have written extensively on neigong, chi gong and chinese traditional chinese medicine and practices.

The sad thing about people who debunk chi never ever did any courses of qigong from any credible teacher. And they also criticise the people and professionals, doctors, scientists who are in these experiments and tests as if they know better.

Some qigong links done by scientists and doctors

http://www.yinyang-institute.com/qigong/effects_ms.htm

http://www.qigonghealing.com/qigong/research.html

http://homepage3.nifty.com/kokusai_kikou/JikkenE.htm#QIGONG%20EFFECT%20ON%20LACTIC%20ACID%2 0IN%20BLOOD

[imperialtaichi]

Since this is a martial arts forum, please demonstrate how qigong allows one to surpass the physical abilities one may obtain by merely hard consistent training over time. You cannot do so! No one is able to do so!.....

.....That is not to say there are absolutely no benefits to practicing qigong, only that it is merely one of many methodologies capable of providing identical benefits.

Again, I'm just making suggestions here, so don't jump on me, I'm just suggesting....

I'm sure we have all heard of this one: It is well documented in many studies that, when divided in three groups of people practicing shooting basketball; one group does nothing, one group meditates/imagine shooting basketballs, and the third group actually physically shoots. Result shows group three improves significantly (obviously), group one made no improvement (no surprise); but the interesting thing is, group two, who only meditated/imagined, actually made some serious improvements as well.

So, can "Qigong" type of training, provide benefits where physical activities alone cannot produce, by "re-mapping" the brain in a way that physical activities cannot? If so (or not so), what are the mechanisms involved?

[imperialtaichi]

Hi John,

its great to chat and share.

Well the truth is, ask any person who has serious searched for answers beyond the so called norm, and you will find out that, we actually dont know as much as we think we know

These links will help start the journey
http://www.amazon.com/Energy-Medicine-Scientific-James-Oschman/dp/0443062617

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFN32U69LBk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZJcUHF83S8&feature=related

Qi awareness and mindfulness is a very old thing, and the hindus, chinese, koreans, japanese and even the western cultures have it- in the form of hermetics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermeticism
It was a way of life, a way of seeing things, outside and inside, a way to understand energy. Chinese talk about the 3 treasures, and people like daniel reid, bruce frantzis, ken cohen have written extensively on neigong, chi gong and chinese traditional chinese medicine and practices.

The sad thing about people who debunk chi never ever did any courses of qigong from any credible teacher. And they also criticise the people and professionals, doctors, scientists who are in these experiments and tests as if they know better.

Some qigong links done by scientists and doctors

http://www.yinyang-institute.com/qigong/effects_ms.htm

http://www.qigonghealing.com/qigong/research.html

http://homepage3.nifty.com/kokusai_kikou/JikkenE.htm#QIGONG%20EFFECT%20ON%20LACTIC%20ACID%2 0IN%20BLOOD

Thanks for the links. I'm going to be spending my weekend reading!

p.s. recently I read the Kybalion. Fascinating book.

[LoneTiger108]

As interesting all this is to some extent, I am still waiting for guy b to give us his ideas about 'What is qi?' :confused:

[LoneTiger108]

Here's what I put into the debate...


The 1st source of Qi is through your parents, sometime this is called 'Original Qi'. It is your natural ability to be human, your physical characteristics and habits etc.

Second source is your Environment. The surroundings you are in depict the level or quality of air you breathe, so this is sometimes called your 'Natural Qi'.

Thirdly we must consider your nutrition. Food and liquid intake, which I would call something like 'Nutritional Qi'.

Balancing these three things in your daily life will increase the Qi potential of your whole self. I think this is also very connected to TCM and why the normal complete subscription would include Accupuncture, Massage and Medicines.

Any thoughts? Anyone?

[guy b.]

1. in the YKT, I catagoraized a Mind layer, in the mind layer there are only

Thinking, intention, aware, visualization , and all of these four function are power by Shen or I call present-ness.

That's all what is needed in Qigong development.


also, I address the fact that one needs to have the body loose, the mind quiet down, the breathing naturally deepen in order to let the Qi layer surface.


it is not that complicated if it is the same Zhen Qi we talked about in TCM accupuncture and herbals.


why not just grow it have it and one will know what it is.


2. so called New age thinking or cult trying to link qi to everything from fung shui to ET and God, it really getting things screw up big time, and to the worst is, it screws up the proccess of development and mislead those who really needs it for healing.



3, another issue is lots of people who has no experience or autherntic training even from China translate the subject with imagination and lost the facture and the real process.


4, then there is the Qi blast in martial art, it is extremely ridiculus.


5, then there is the western Doctor and scientis who keep talking and thinking and argueing what they want instead of just take it as what it is.



so, well, the world is a fun place like a mecca of everyone knows it all but almost none knows what the heck it is.



it is just a phenomenon of energy flow which will surface in human body when the body is loose, the mind is quiet down to have only singer thought, and breathing naturally deepen. what is the big deal? with all these philosophy, thinking, mid set, science, research....believe... spiritual..... all and goes no where.



BTW

so what is visualization for in the Qi development?
it is like seeing the whole river at the same time.
and Intention or Yi is like tracing a long the river a point at a time.

those are mind tools use in different development situation and conditions. it is not those OMM or visualize the ET flying down to give one an qi blast.....etc.


so what is aware ?
Sensing and hold on the focus in the slightest effort.

So what about thinking?
one needs to cut the thinking down to a singer thought or subject. it is a Qi de - surface element. one wants to switch off thinking and switch on awareness.

so what is shen?

that present-ness with its present one feel fresh , alert, and with ease.

that is all what one needs. no philosophy no believe is know how things functions. if you are human you can get the first feeling within 40 mins.

This is about cultivation of qi. What do you think qi is?

[guy b.]

As interesting all this is to some extent, I am still waiting for guy b to give us his ideas about 'What is qi?' :confused:

I will give my opinion but I am disappointed by the lack of ideas from the people who usually like to talk the most about qi. Can we really talk sensibly about something we cannot define in material terms?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I will give my opinion but I am disappointed by the lack of ideas from the people who usually like to talk the most about qi. Can we really talk sensibly about something we cannot define in material terms?

No, we can't.
Period.

[guy b.]

No, we can't.
Period.

I agree, and this is why I believe that if you want to train qi you have to be brave and decide what it is, rather than hiding behind obscure language and hedging your bets, or making it so all encompassing that it could be anything or nothing at all.

It needs a physical definition.

[guy b.]

Personally I think qi is awareness of and physical control over usually involuntary parts of the musculature, for example the deep postural muscles that stabilise the core and spine. This theory explains why standing postures are so central to qi development, why it feels the way it does (as we become aware of usually automatically controlled parts of the body), why it originates in the dantien, why yi leads qi, and so on.

[Hendrik]

Since this is a martial arts forum, please demonstrate how qigong allows one to surpass the physical abilities one may obtain by merely hard consistent training over time.

You cannot do so! No one is able to do so!

.


Those who has sickness such As who lost or weak in their physical ability can use qigong to gain back and improve their physical ability.

Hard consistent trainning which is non qigong cannot do that and will further damage the body.

[Happy Tiger]

I think qi is an interactive 'projected' kind of energy layer to our being. Totally connected and interdependant to the energy layer all around animate and inanimate life both. I believe qi partally exists outside our direct experience and is just part of the 'rental' of material our soul uses to interface this reality.

[Hendrik]

Personally I think qi is awareness of and physical control over usually involuntary parts of the musculature, for example the deep postural muscles that stabilise the core and spine.


This theory explains why standing postures are so central to qi development, why it feels the way it does (as we become aware of usually automatically controlled parts of the body), why it originates in the dantien, why yi leads qi, and so on.


Nope.
Qi is certainly not awareness of physical control.

This theory doesn't describe qi. And qi can be developed in any posture.

Also qi doesn't need to originate in the dantien.

[Hendrik]

This is about cultivation of qi. What do you think qi is?

Qi exist without I need to think.

[Scott R. Brown]

Here's what I put into the debate...



Any thoughts? Anyone?

This is, of course the traditional view.

A) We receive our genetics from our parents, which determines our basic physical constitution, intelligence and resistance to stress and disease.

B) Healthy food, air, water benefit everyone regardless of their general genetic make up.

C) Exercise and moderate, but not excessive, stress benefits everyone as well. A life of challenge stimulates the intellect. Learning how the mind functions and using it more efficiently assists all people in living longer, healthier and more enjoyable lives.

A mysterious, ancient philosophy/methodology is not necessary. Not that it isn't beneficial. Some people enjoy magical thinking, but that does not make it real.

Ultimately what is important is, do you enjoy the practice?

[Scott R. Brown]

Qi exist without I need to think.

Therein lies the problem, you don't think.

Qi is not like sunlight or water. These are objectively measurable. Qi is ineffable. Therefore saying it just is and expecting others to accept it based upon heresay and questionable evidence that may be explained using occam's razor is just foolish!

[Hendrik]

Therein lies the problem, you don't think.

Qi is not like sunlight or water. These are objectively measurable. Qi is ineffable. Therefore saying it just is and expecting others to accept it based upon heresay and questionable evidence that may be explained using occam's razor is just foolish!

You love to comment on thing you don't know and don't have.

[Scott R. Brown]

You love to comment on thing you don't know and don't have.

I think you meant to say that YOU like to comment on things you know very little about. Your learning and understanding is shallow. It is perhaps not your own fault. You clearly have not been taught the deeper meanings. And herein lies the problem. You consider yourself learned about topics you only have an intermediate education and understanding of, and do not realize it. So, you continually fill the minds of beginners with inaccurate, or perhaps incomplete would be more accurate, information.

[Scott R. Brown]

Those who has sickness such As who lost or weak in their physical ability can use qigong to gain back and improve their physical ability.

Hard consistent trainning which is non qigong cannot do that and will further damage the body.

While I agree that qigong may be beneficial in helping some sick individuals become more healthy, it is not the only method that provides beneficial results. The same process may be achieved using similar techniques that have no relation to Qi or qigong and other techniques that have no direct relation to qigong!

[SimonM]

Qi is breath. That is all.

[sanjuro_ronin]

What is it?

Simple explanations only please.

I think I know what it is but I would like to hear what other people think it is also. I will post my definition after a few replies.

Something seems to have been "lost" in this thread and that is:
When we decide to quantify something, proof would be nice, LOL !

People can say Qi is whatever they think it is, but how about a little thing called proof?

In terms of MA skill, everything that I h ave seen done "attributed" to Qi, has been done by others "without Qi" and explained by basic physics as it applies to bio-mechanics.
In terms of "qi stunts", pretty much every one of them has been duplicated by "tricksters" with "no qi".

Now, in terms of medical evidence, well..now you get into the more tricky area od quantifying what one is seeing be done and the first thing that MUST be stated is WHAT is QI and WHAT is being observed.
IF Qi is simply the bioelectrical field that living organisims have then, yes, Qi does exist and can be "manipulated" to vary degrees.
IF Qi is "breathe" then yes, it can also be manipulated to effect the health of a person.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Qi is breath. That is all.

Yes and no, enough literature exists that makes one think that the :ancients" viewed "qi" in various ways.
One was as breathe/air and another as "bioelectricity" and yet another was how they explained what we now know as "bio-mechanics" and physcial properties such as "impulse" and "kinetic energy".

[Scott R. Brown]

Qi is breath. That is all.

Well if we want to get really technical, it is the steam rising off of cooked rice!:p

But don't listen to me. I have it on incompetent authority, "I love to comment on thing I don't know and don't have".:eek:

[Scott R. Brown]

Yes and no, enough literature exists that makes one think that the :ancients" viewed "qi" in various ways.
One was as breathe/air and another as "bioelectricity" and yet another was how they explained what we now know as "bio-mechanics" and physcial properties such as "impulse" and "kinetic energy".

Now stop trying to clutter the discussion with scientabulous perspications!:mad:

[sanjuro_ronin]

Now stop trying to clutter the discussion with scientabulous perspications!:mad:

Sorry, forgot this was a QI thread in the WC forum !
:eek:

[Scott R. Brown]

Sorry, forgot this was a QI thread in the WC forum !
:eek:

Exactly!!! You have to use your IMMMMMMAAAAAAGGGIIINAAAAAAAAATION!!!!!!:)

[Hendrik]

While I agree that qigong may be beneficial in helping some sick individuals become more healthy, it is not the only method that provides beneficial results.

The same process may be achieved using similar techniques that have no relation to Qi or qigong and other techniques that have no direct relation to qigong!


Qigong can help the weak and sick get back thier physical ability where the usual sport training can't.

Qigong also expand the boundary of the healthy and strong where the usual sport training cannot.


Qi gong deal with the qi layer. And qi layer is a part of human body. Technics has no related to qi is simply incomplete and partial.

[Hendrik]

Qi is breath. That is all.

Qi is not breath. Breath is breath . Qi is qi.

[Scott R. Brown]

Qigong can help the weak and sick get back thier physical ability where the usual sport training can't.

Qigong also expand the boundary of the healthy and strong where the usual sport training cannot.


Qi gong deal with the qi layer. And qi layer is a part of human body. Technics has no related to qi is simply incomplete and partial.

Well this is your imagination at work again, because I am pretty sure there is plenty of scientific evidence that demonstrates you wrong!

But you know, I am only a nurse who deals with rehab patients and all!:rolleyes:

[Scott R. Brown]

Qi is not breath. Breath is breath . Qi is qi.

And imagination is imagination!

[sanjuro_ronin]

Exactly!!! You have to use your IMMMMMMAAAAAAGGGIIINAAAAAAAAATION!!!!!!:)

People will always see what they WANT to see so that they make themselves feel "special" and "unique".
Its a horrific illness in TCMA it seems.

[Scott R. Brown]

People will always see what they WANT to see so that they make themselves feel "special" and "unique".
Its a horrific illness in TCMA it seems.

Does that mean that by agreeing with you I am making myself feel special because I am part of a group that is smarter than those who are not as smart as you and me????:confused::eek:

[Hendrik]

Well this is your imagination at work again, because I am pretty sure there is plenty of scientific evidence that demonstrates you wrong!

But you know, I am only a nurse who deals with rehab patients and all!:rolleyes:


No one can force you to accept ether exist.

You don't know qi.

[LoneTiger108]

Personally I think qi is awareness of and physical control over usually involuntary parts of the musculature, for example the deep postural muscles that stabilise the core and spine. This theory explains why standing postures are so central to qi development, why it feels the way it does (as we become aware of usually automatically controlled parts of the body), why it originates in the dantien, why yi leads qi, and so on.

I'm happy that you have shared your thoughts, but with respect (again!), I do not see how what you are saying tells me exactly what Qi is? You seem to be trying to explain what your body 'does' to feel Qi, not what Qi actually IS.

And FWIW Hendrik was 100% correct IMHO.


Qi is certainly not awareness of physical control.

This theory doesn't describe qi. And qi can be developed in any posture.

Also qi doesn't need to originate in the dantien.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Does that mean that by agreeing with you I am making myself feel special because I am part of a group that is smarter than those who are not as smart as you and me????:confused::eek:

Yes.
And you don't know Qi !!

( Bo knows Qi though !)

[Scott R. Brown]

No one can force you to accept ether exist.

You don't know qi.

That is not the case! As I have told you many times in the past, you have only a rudimentary understanding of Qi and its process!

Also, as I have implied and semi-stated previously, it is most likely not entirely your fault. You have not been given all the information on Qi from your teacher.

Either he was not given the inner teachings himself, and so, could not inform you, or more likely, your tendency to narrowness of views kept you from receiving information you were not prepared intellectually or emotionally to handle.

I have patiently spent time over the years attempting to bring you up to speed. I may have more patience than your teacher(s) were inclined to spend on you.

I"ll freely admit that what I have been attempting to teach you is far advanced of your present level of understanding and experience. Because of this, you have not been properly prepared emotionally or intellectually for the information. But one does what one can over an internet connection!:(

A proper foundation has not been established, so you are not prepared to understand the secret/verbal/inner teachings.

It is sort of like in mathematics, a person must first understand the foundational principles of addition and subtraction in order to understand multiplication and division, and multiplication and division must first be understood prior to learning fractions and decimals, etc. Each level is a foundation for more in-depth learning to be gained later.

The limitation in your understanding however is ultimately your own responsibility, not mine or your previous teachers. Your tendency to narrowness of perspective keeps you from the deeper understanding of Qi and Tao!

I will remain patient and ever vigilant should I perceive any willingness on your part to move towards the next step in understanding Tao and its Manifestations! I have been instructed by the Taoverse Deity to do so! I will not abandon you or any other willing student or searcher for the truth of the matter!;):)

[Scott R. Brown]

And FWIW Hendrik was 100% correct IMHO.

He is not technically 100% incorrect. Incomplete in his understanding would be a more accurate description of where he is at;).

[Scott R. Brown]

Yes.
And you don't know Qi !!

( Bo knows Qi though !)

I am pretty sure Bo knows everything. :cool:

Or he did at one time anyway!

[LoneTiger108]

Again, I like this but it is still not accurate enough so I 'filled in' where I thought it may help link to what I have already suggested here...


This is, of course the traditional view.

A) We receive our genetics from our parents, which determines our basic physical constitution, intelligence and resistance to stress and disease.

Original Qi

B) Healthy food, air, water benefit everyone regardless of their general genetic make up.

Nutritional & Natural Qi (mixed up)

C) Exercise and moderate, but not excessive, stress benefits everyone as well. A life of challenge stimulates the intellect. Learning how the mind functions and using it more efficiently assists all people in living longer, healthier and more enjoyable lives.

Exercise has nothing to do with exactly what Qi IS IMHO. You are now actually describing how we 'use' or 'manipulate' Original Qi to live better lives.

And this is one of the biggest misconceptions about Qi...


Ultimately what is important is, do you enjoy the practice?

What practise is WITHIN Energy itself? Plenty of ways to nurture it, to use it and to prove it exists too. But exactly what is energy??

There is NO PRACTISE to the existence of energy itself! Qi exists from the day we are born until the day we die and the 3 types of influences I have highlighted can be manipulated by ourselves to enhance our life without any PRACTISE whatsoever. Having been taught a specific 'practise' to benefit how we breathe or use the 'air' around us just means we have been fortunate.

And actually, it is the PRACTISE that changes your own Original Qi. You begin to be able to do things that your parents could not do. This can be maths, or it can be sprinting!! But once your Original Qi is manipulated it has a knock on effect to your daily life. You change your diet and may become aware of your breathing and surroundings. Tastes change according to the needs of the body and this too is normally felt naturally, kinda like a pregnant women having cravings for garlic when they never liked it before.

The whole of Feng Shui phenomenom is based on the Qi within the environment. It's Natural Qi. And we can manipulate this for our benefit. As a Wing Chun person this is also attributed to equipment and things we use to train, like the wooden man. Develops another kind of reaction in the body. Qi changes absorbed through the skin rather than breathed in ;) Same could be said for how music changes your moods.

A modern Nutritionist will know what foods/drinks affect your overall health. Hell, you can even have a diet fixed for you by sending some expert your DNA sample first!!! Now THAT's some serious Nutritional Qi manipulation!

On a final note, I am of the belief (and yes this has never been clarified by anyone!) that Qi is actually the result of Protons and Neutrons working together. It's Atomic energy, which is why there was never scientific evidence for it's existence before. I find it fascinating that protons and neutrons are made up of, wait for it... 3 quarks! Not only that, but the pair is a perfect Yum Yeurng (Yin Yang) 2ups and 1 down = Proton, and 2 downs and 1 up = Neutron! Hmmmm

Not to mention that they require a fundamental Electron to begin to work. Now imagine that Electron is your Original Qi :cool:

Thoughts on that anyone?

I calmly await to be sectioned!!!

[taai gihk yahn]

Now stop trying to clutter the discussion with scientabulous perspications!:mad:
Or spurrulous spectacubation!


Sorry, forgot this was a QI thread in the WC forum !
:eek:
at least we know that KFMF is using a highly stable platform (probably he'd together by Gene's sheer force of "qi"); a combination like that would cause most servers to crash...


guys, u have to really just stop with all this - "qi" is the term applied to a functional principle, which is that of life-process; the character in its earliest form depicts the vapors that arise in the fermentation of rice (I know Scott says steam coming off rice - he may be correct, I got the fermentation from my sifu, so just repeating what I was told); anyway, the point is that it illustrates a transformative process; this is what is constantly happening in the body, and in the world around us: you breathe in air which oxygenates blood; you eat food which is converted by the body in various ways; you move / exercise and the system takes that input and uses it to sustain itself; when u cook, u talk about "wok qi" - cooking is another form of transformation; the landscape changes, the whole universe changes - these are principles of transformation at work; so when u assess someone's "qi", such as occurs during a TCM session, u r assessing their ability to sustain life - how well their "qi" works is determined by the TCM practitioner looking at various signs the body gies off, via tongue topography, pulse pattern, breath odor, bowl sounds, eye color, vocal tone, body habits, etc., etc.;

if u practice qigong, u address these things: a lot of qigong is designed to stimulate / balance autonomic function, via breathing, self-massage (including organ), visualization, and movement; qigong will not typically make u that much stronger muscularly or improve ur cardiovascular capacity to elite athletic levels, but it WILL improve ur body's ability to "transform" - basically to achieve and maintain homeostasis - that is the "power" of qigong as opposed to other forms of exercise - (although, of course, other systems can do this as well, just coming from a different paradigm);

if u think "qi" is a special sort of independent energy (like electricity, magnetism, heat, light, etc.), or exists as a distinct layer in the body, this is wrong - however, heat, electromagnetism, etc., these are all aspects of "qi", because they are all present within the function of body physiology, so when u practice qigong, u can certainly have very distinct feelings, and these r characterized as "qi" moving, but what they really are, are different aspects of body systems, especially autonomics, being stimulated; as the "ancient" Chinese had no idea of the autonomic nervous system as a discreet entity, they came up with a metaphorical structure to describe what practitioners would experience during practice; as a lot of this came out of Taoist shamanic practice, of course u r going to have mysticism creep in; and of course, for anyone who, in modern culture, wants to feel special / different / superior to the mainstream, this serves as a wonderful way of manifesting one's predilection for esoterica;

if u really research Taoist and Ch'an Buddhist practice, there is one theme that continually comes up, over and over and over, which is that the 'secret" of practice, whatever form of cultivation it may be, lies in the "profoundly ordinary";

go and ponder

[sanjuro_ronin]

In short, IF you make a statement about what QI is, you have to PROVE IT.

[Robinhood]

Yes.
And you don't know Qi !!

( Bo knows Qi though !)

And you forgot to say "he doesn't know he doesn't know"

Scott keeps trying to say that there is no Qi, but most people are aware that there is Qi, and what is it is what this thread is about.

If Scott wants proof, he needs to put in the time and training to develop his own Qi, but since he is to lazy to do the work necessary to develop his own Qi, he likes to attack people who have done the work necessary to develop Qi,

Because flapping his jaw na saying doesn't take much work for the arm chair MA expert with no experience.

People who have developed Qi, use it all the time, which is proof enough that it is real and they know how they developed it, and it is not developed by hard exercise.

I will say one thing, exercising is a lot easier than developing chi.

But if you have a personality or mind set that will not let you develop chi, you will never find it, or maybe your afraid that it might exist and you have been wrong all these years and wasted all that time hard training and wrong preaching, so you try to mislead people into your narrow thinking to make yourself feel better.

Good luck with your narrow view of how things work, and when you get sick, just exercise more.



Cheers

[sanjuro_ronin]

And you forgot to say "he doesn't know he doesn't know"

Scott keeps trying to say that there is no Qi, but most people are aware that there is Qi, and what is it is what this thread is about.

If Scott wants proof, he needs to put in the time and training to develop his own Qi, but since he is to lazy to do the work necessary to develop his own Qi, he likes to attack people who have done the work necessary to develop Qi,

Because flapping his jaw na saying doesn't take much work for the arm chair MA expert with no experience.

People who have developed Qi, use it all the time, which is proof enough that it is real and they know how they developed it, and it is not developed by hard exercise.

I will say one thing, exercising is a lot easier than developing chi.

But if you have a personality or mind set that will not let you develop chi, you will never find it, or maybe your afraid that it might exist and you have been wrong all these years and wasted all that time hard training and wrong preaching, so you try to mislead people into your narrow thinking to make yourself feel better.

Good luck with your narrow view of how things work, and when you get sick, just exercise more.



Cheers

People think that know a lot about Qi, and yet, can't prove anything about it or even agree on what it is.
as an example:
Qi= longevity for some, and yet the oldest people around don't do any qigong.
Matter of fact a russian guy that was over 110 said the secret was a shot of vodka a day !
Maybe it was "qi vodka"...

[guy b.]

I'm happy that you have shared your thoughts, but with respect (again!), I do not see how what you are saying tells me exactly what Qi is? You seem to be trying to explain what your body 'does' to feel Qi, not what Qi actually IS.

And FWIW Hendrik was 100% correct IMHO.

Qi is control of usually involuntary muscle groups we are not generally aware of, most importantly postural muscles. When you move qi you are making use of deep musculature you do not normally have control of. This is what qi is. It isn't a previously undiscovered energy form or a supernatural particle moving in the body.

[guy b.]

In short, IF you make a statement about what QI is, you have to PROVE IT.

This is the wrong way around. Qi is a term invented to attribute a kind of overarching supernatural meaning to feelings and effects in the body encouraged by certain physical practices. Nobody needs to prove what "qi" is because the term can mean absolutely anything.

Instead one needs to disregard the terminology because it is unhelpful and instead develop physical theories of what is being happening in qi exercise which can explain the feelings felt and the effects experienced.

The imperative is to develop a physical theory which is in accord with the experience.

[guy b.]

I think qi is an interactive 'projected' kind of energy layer to our being. Totally connected and interdependant to the energy layer all around animate and inanimate life both. I believe qi partally exists outside our direct experience and is just part of the 'rental' of material our soul uses to interface this reality.

This isn't a physical theory of qi. Are you happy with a supernatural theory?

[sanjuro_ronin]

This is the wrong way around. Qi is a term invented to attribute a kind of overarching supernatural meaning to feelings and effects in the body encouraged by certain physical practices. Nobody needs to prove what "qi" is because the term can mean absolutely anything.

Instead one needs to disregard the terminology because it is unhelpful and instead develop physical theories of what is being happening in qi exercise which can explain the feelings felt and the effects experienced.

The imperative is to develop a physical theory which is in accord with the experience.

Can you prove that statement and show THAT to be "qi"?

[guy b.]

[Quote=guy b.
Personally I think qi is awareness of and physical control over usually involuntary parts of the musculature, for example the deep postural muscles that stabilise the core and spine.


This theory explains why standing postures are so central to qi development, why it feels the way it does (as we become aware of usually automatically controlled parts of the body), why it originates in the dantien, why yi leads qi, and so on.

Nope.
Qi is certainly not awareness of physical control.

This theory doesn't describe qi. And qi can be developed in any posture.

Also qi doesn't need to originate in the dantien.[/QUOTE]

"Awareness of and physical control over usually involuntary parts of the musculature" does not equal "awareness of physical control"

Is English your second language?

The theory describes qi very well, in simple physical terms. Elimination of the use of phasic muscles from the postural function of the body leads to health. Awareness of and control over the use of involuntary postural musculature is yi (mind) leading qi (involuntary postural and breathing musculature).

Qi doesn't 'need' to originate in the dantien in this theory, one could develop it by sheer force of will, relaxation, or any other method. But it does describe very well those traditions which teach qi originating in the dantien because the dantien is the nexus of postural muscles and fascia which must activate before ordinary conscious movement.

[guy b.]

Can you prove that statement and show THAT to be "qi"?

Which statement?

"The imperative is to develop a physical theory which is in accord with the experience"?

This is simple logic. Any physical theory must be in accord with physical experience in order to be a current theory, otherwise it is falsified (not in accordance) or unfalsifiable (supernatural) theory.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Which statement?

"The imperative is to develop a physical theory which is in accord with the experience"?

This is simple logic. Any physical theory must be in accord with physical experience in order to be a current theory, otherwise it is falsified (not in accordance) or unfalsifiable (supernatural) theory.

Can you prove this one:

Qi is a term invented to attribute a kind of overarching supernatural meaning to feelings and effects in the body encouraged by certain physical practices. Nobody needs to prove what "qi" is because the term can mean absolutely anything.

Of course not because that is simply your opinion and that is ALL we have had in this thread and ANY thread about "qi", opinion.
WHY?
Because, when we can say something is "qi" and NOT have to prove it, then ANYTHING can be "qi".

[xinyidizi]

"Awareness of and physical control over usually involuntary parts of the musculature" does not equal "awareness of physical control"

Is English your second language?

The theory describes qi very well, in simple physical terms. Elimination of the use of phasic muscles from the postural function of the body leads to health. Awareness of and control over the use of involuntary postural musculature is yi (mind) leading qi (involuntary postural and breathing musculature).

Qi doesn't 'need' to originate in the dantien in this theory, one could develop it by sheer force of will, relaxation, or any other method. But it does describe very well those traditions which teach qi originating in the dantien because the dantien is the nexus of postural muscles and fascia which must activate before ordinary conscious movement.

Qi has it's own definition and it has been mentioned in the classics many times. It's fine if you don't think it exists but changing its definition as you wish is also very stupid. If you have a theory about anything you can use other words to name it. For example you can choose a name like "pi" for your "involuntary postural and breathing musculature".

Anyway why is this discussion in "Wing Chun" forum?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Qi has it's own definition and it has been mentioned in the classics many times. It's fine if you don't think it exists but changing its definition as you wish is also very stupid. If you have a theory about anything you can use other words to name it. For example you can choose a name like "pi" for your "involuntary postural and breathing musculature".

IN the classics. Qi was everything from "breath", "air", "relaxation", proper "structure", "economy of motion", etc, etc.
Of course everything that was attributed to "qi" can be duplicated by those that have never trained to develop or use their "qi".

[guy b.]

Can you prove this one:


Quote:
Qi is a term invented to attribute a kind of overarching supernatural meaning to feelings and effects in the body encouraged by certain physical practices. Nobody needs to prove what "qi" is because the term can mean absolutely anything.

Of course not because that is simply your opinion and that is ALL we have had in this thread and ANY thread about "qi", opinion.
WHY?
Because, when we can say something is "qi" and NOT have to prove it, then ANYTHING can be "qi".

I think you have had a small logic short circuit. Maybe you should SHOUT less?

I am pointing out that the commonly used terms and concepts relating to 'qi' are unfalsifiable. This does not require proof, it requires disproof, lol

Go ahead and falsify Hendrik's qi

[xinyidizi]

IN the classics. Qi was everything from "breath", "air", "relaxation", proper "structure", "economy of motion", etc, etc.

I think we are just talking about 元氣論 in MA and TCM not the philosophical or general meanings。 More specifically I think in some cases it should be 炁. The ancient Chinese really liked to play with characters.

[guy b.]

Qi has it's own definition and it has been mentioned in the classics many times. It's fine if you don't think it exists but changing its definition as you wish is also very stupid. If you have a theory about anything you can use other words to name it. For example you can choose a name like "pi" for your "involuntary postural and breathing musculature".

Anyway why is this discussion in "Wing Chun" forum?

Mentions in the classics commonly discuss the feelings attributed to qi, not what qi actually is. Many seem content to exude a false wisdom based on these old descriptions and analogies. But for the concept to be meaningful it needs to be described in terms of physical reality which are consistent with observation

[guy b.]

Why the wing chun forum?

Because it has by far the highest concentration of people who like to talk in esoteric terms

[Hendrik]

Why the wing chun forum?

Because it has by far the highest concentration of people who like to talk in esoteric terms

Qi is like my blood for me. Esoteric?

[guy b.]

Qi is like my blood for me. Esoteric?

You have a unique gift for writing massive amounts of impenetrable theory and for avoiding the point at all costs

Never simple when complex will do

[Hendrik]

You have a unique gift for writing massive amounts of impenetrable theory and for avoiding the point at all costs

Never simple when complex will do

Newton did that complex things too when he used differential equation instead of basic math.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think you have had a small logic short circuit. Maybe you should SHOUT less?

I am pointing out that the commonly used terms and concepts relating to 'qi' are unfalsifiable. This does not require proof, it requires disproof, lol

Go ahead and falsify Hendrik's qi

First off, capitalization is not shouting, but bringing attention to a specific word in a sentence so as to NOT overlook the importance of that word in that sentence.
That you think it means shouting, well, that is up to you of course.
My point is quite simple, since "qi" isn't being quailified ( because it doesn't exist or because no one agree on what it is), then ANYTHING ( not shouting) can be viewed as "qi", just as any "unknow" number in math can be viewed as "X".

Your opinion about what "qi" is or isn't falls under that same argument.

In short I am pointing out that you still need to prove that qi is, in your words:
unfalsifiable:

I am pointing out that the commonly used terms and concepts relating to 'qi' are unfalsifiable.

[guy b.]

Newton did that complex things too when he used differential equation instead of basic math.

Newton did not actively avoid simplicity. To do so is the antithesis of science and empiricism

It is staggering that you compare your wafflings to the work of Newton!

[guy b.]

If you are the Newton of wing chun, what does that make wing chun?

[sanjuro_ronin]

If you are the Newton of wing chun, what does that make wing chun?

You didn't know?
Hendrick is bringing 1850 back !
He is Wing Chun's Justin Timberlake !

[Happy Tiger]

So basically, we don't know what it is,how to measure it, what the full scope of it's function much beyond the cue cards. Maybe it would be better to ask what it isn't
Is or isn't 'bio electric' energy. Does it obey the established known physical laws of our reality? What is it not? Many forces now taken for granted not long ago were being manipulated with some success without actually knowing anything about it's true nature. Attempts to quantify supported wild incomplete reports that cooperated to a point with assumed references. For all we know tcm's methods my be the least effective means of interacting with this amazing system of energy

[sanjuro_ronin]

So basically, we don't know what it is,how to measure it, what the full scope of it's function much beyond the cue cards. Maybe it would be better to ask what it isn't
Is or isn't 'bio electric' energy. Does it obey the established known physical laws of our reality? What is it not? Many forces now taken for granted not long ago were being manipulated with some success without actually knowing anything about it's true nature. Attempts to quantify supported wild incomplete reports that cooperated to a point with assumed references. For all we know tcm's methods my be the least effective means of interacting with this amazing system of energy

In a nutshell, yes.

[Hendrik]

Newton did not actively avoid simplicity. To do so is the antithesis of science and empiricism

It is staggering that you compare your wafflings to the work of Newton!



Too bad differential equations and calculus are not addition and subtraction. And those who know only addition and subtraction not able to comprehend and Appreciate.

Well, I use to complain why should I take partial differential equation class too. Too bad I cannot make that class dissappear no matter how I complain and argue with my advisor.

[Hendrik]

So basically, we don't know what it is,how to measure it, what the full scope of it's function much beyond the cue cards. Maybe it would be better to ask what it isn't
Is or isn't 'bio electric' energy. Does it obey the established known physical laws of our reality? What is it not? Many forces now taken for granted not long ago were being manipulated with some success without actually knowing anything about it's true nature. Attempts to quantify supported wild incomplete reports that cooperated to a point with assumed references. For all we know tcm's methods my be the least effective means of interacting with this amazing system of energy


The chinese know what it is , how to sense it, measure it, grow it, channel it.

Only those who called themself scientic doesn't know it and not be able to explain it.

[guy b.]

Too bad differential equations and calculus are not addition and subtraction. And those who know only addition and subtraction not able to comprehend and Appreciate.

Well, I use to complain why should I take partial differential equation class too. Too bad I cannot make that class dissappear no matter how I complain and argue with my advisor.

There is no point in using phony partial differential equations to say 1 + 1 = 2.

Mathematics is simple no matter how complex because it is logical and there is no place to hide from reality. It is the opposite of common TCMA theory

[guy b.]

First off, capitalization is not shouting, but bringing attention to a specific word in a sentence so as to NOT overlook the importance of that word in that sentence.
That you think it means shouting, well, that is up to you of course.
My point is quite simple, since "qi" isn't being quailified ( because it doesn't exist or because no one agree on what it is), then ANYTHING ( not shouting) can be viewed as "qi", just as any "unknow" number in math can be viewed as "X".

Your opinion about what "qi" is or isn't falls under that same argument.

In short I am pointing out that you still need to prove that qi is, in your words:
unfalsifiable:

Proof and falsifiability are opposite things. You can't prove a materialistic theory, but you can falsify it. This is why science doesn't ever prove things

And please, stop shouting

[guy b.]

The chinese know what it is , how to sense it, measure it, grow it, channel it.

Only those who called themself scientic doesn't know it and not be able to explain it.

If you wish to talk down my attempt at a coherent theory based on physical reality then you need to put forward one of your own that better fits what is observed

[xinyidizi]

First of all as I mentioned in another post you guys shouldn't mistake 氣（qi) and 炁（qi）. I am not very sure so correct me if I'm wrong but I have seen in a few Daoist texts that 炁 was used to describe what I earlier mentioned as the particles forming energy fields in the universe. Secondly it's not just in the Chinese spiritual systems and many schools of buddhism, hinduism, Sufism, native american shamanism, etc also have very similar observations.


Is or isn't 'bio electric' energy.

No but there might be some connections. Other than seeing it, your sensation of qi can get far away from your body where you can't typically sense electromagnetic fields.

[Hendrik]

There is no point in using phony partial differential equations to say 1 + 1 = 2.

Mathematics is simple no matter how complex because it is logical and there is no place to hide from reality. It is the opposite of common TCMA theory


and you dont know TCMA internal, so what for you to say?

[Hendrik]

If you wish to talk down my attempt at a coherent theory based on physical reality then you need to put forward one of your own that better fits what is observed


Qi exists disregard of what theory or what the human like to theoritesize it.