Coaching/teaching is the death of your personal skills

[RWilson]

You start teaching and before you know it every time you go to class you are running it. In the past every time you went to class you had a workout and learned something new. Now you have to come up with lesson plans and you have to watch people. You hold the pads, fix posture, show takedowns, etc and then spend the rest of class watching everyone fuk it up.

You hold a stop watch and yell at everyone to keep doing jumping jacks, push ups...and stop doing them on your own. Now you have to teach and find separate days to work out. Then the wife complains that you are doing your Kung foo/mma/boxing every night and ignoring the family. Meanwhile with all this training you are getting fatter. Meanwhile your already fat coach is telling you how much you will learn through teaching. Then I tell him, "Too bad learning new things does not translate into skills".

Anyone here who teaches classes(not private one person at a time) have a different experience than what I described above?

[TenTigers]

One-your fault that you didn't choose a mate that is supportive of your passion.
If this is a major part of who you are, then you should have made that clear from the git-go, and she should be on board. If not, you made your choices. Deal with it.

Two-instead of finding excuses why you can't train, find reasons why you can.
My first class is at 11am-this gives me the entire morning to do whatever I want.
I run in the mornings, then teach the tao yoga class to stretch out, drill with my senior students, do my own training after hours,(just finished weight training and iron palm) and fri mornings BJJ, Sat after classes, SPM from 12:30 to 4:00, and if I want, open mat on Sun.(I used to do SJ Sundays from 9am to 1pm as well)

If it's important to you, you will find the time.
If it's important to you, she will understand.

[Shaolin]

I train 3-4 hours throughout the day Mon-Sat, run my own school and still have quality time with the wife and kids.

I can do all of this easily because of structure and organization.

First off it depends and who/where you are at your school. Are you an assistant, a black belt instructor or the head instructor?

All of my instructors under me (black or colored belt) are still students 1st and attend their appropriate level class. They also receive a private lesson each week and we have an instructors meeting/get together once per week at the studio. My instructors are only required to teach 2 days per week but are welcome to help more (which they usually do). They are given a mandatory 1 week off from the studio as an instructor and as a student every 6 months. This keeps my instructors happy and loyal and because of this it allows me to be able to go and train with my coaches throughout the day and night.

If you are the head instructor you need to put together a structured instructors program and delegate the work. If you are a black belt instructor or an assistant you need to talk to your coach and inform him/her you are getting burnt out.

From your post it also sounds like you're taking the instructor side too serious. Have fun with it, joke with the students, enjoy them for their mistakes and use it as an opportunity to better them whether it's their first day or they've been there for years. Don't just hold pads and the timer, get in there and train with them. Set up your drills in a round robin and have the students holding the timer as well. Work the mitts and shields with them, have them hold for you. It's in their benefit to learn how to hold mitts, it trains their timing and coordination, lets them see how it should be done and gives them a better understanding of the drill.

[YouKnowWho]

Then I tell him, "Too bad learning new things does not translate into skills".

Anyone here who teaches classes(not private one person at a time) have a different experience than what I described above?

I did exactly what you are doing. One guy watched my group class and said, "You are not teaching. You are training for yourself." My class was by semester. Any student drops out, he won't get refund.

[RWilson]

One-your fault that you didn't choose a mate that is supportive of your passion.
If this is a major part of who you are, then you should have made that clear from the git-go, and she should be on board. If not, you made your choices. Deal with it.

Two-instead of finding excuses why you can't train, find reasons why you can.
My first class is at 11am-this gives me the entire morning to do whatever I want.
I run in the mornings, then teach the tao yoga class to stretch out, drill with my senior students, do my own training after hours,(just finished weight training and iron palm) and fri mornings BJJ, Sat after classes, SPM from 12:30 to 4:00, and if I want, open mat on Sun.(I used to do SJ Sundays from 9am to 1pm as well)

If it's important to you, you will find the time.
If it's important to you, she will understand.

Everyone has their own lot in life I guess. Your plan falls apart though if your mate all of a sudden cannot take the kid to school in the morning. Or if you had to rush home to get him off the bus at 3pm and then rush back to teach at 3:30...but then the school is two towns over. It is team work in the kid department.

As to your other points:

1.I am glad you found time to run and do yoga in the mornings. Send a picture of your washboard abs to show the fruit of your supposed labors.
2. This thread is about skills as in fighting skills. I did not say anything about finding time to do the dreaded iron palm. I can watch porno and fantasize plenty on my own. I do not need to hit bags filled with rocks to feel tough and also to avoid being hit back. It may impress the kids but skills impress me.

People who train real fighting skills need focused and dedicated coaches. Not alone time in the corner to practice bullsh!t...I mean iron palm. I am glad you are finding time to lift weights(stare at women in the gym) and do iron palm(fantasy) but I was talking about fighting.


This is what you do from 12:30-4 everyday? I would not brag about it if I were you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0wRqR9J8WA&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[Frost]

So not being funny why are you asking on a kung fu forum, if you feel this way about aspects of kung fu training? why not go ask on the MMA sub forum or another board?
Ten tigers posted how he keeps HIS class running, if its not what you are looking for then why not go ask at sherdog or MMA.tv?
Oh and stop b&tching and moaning no one said you had to teach ita a free country, and frankly after your last message I suspect no one gives two sh*ts about anything you have to say

[David Jamieson]

Bottom line is this:

Nobody is the same.
Your **** is yours alone.
If you don't make the time, you won't have the time.
Balance is what living a decent life is about.
If you haven't got it, work on it.

[ginosifu]

You start teaching and before you know it every time you go to class you are running it. In the past every time you went to class you had a workout and learned something new. Now you have to come up with lesson plans and you have to watch people. You hold the pads, fix posture, show takedowns, etc and then spend the rest of class watching everyone fuk it up.

You hold a stop watch and yell at everyone to keep doing jumping jacks, push ups...and stop doing them on your own. Now you have to teach and find separate days to work out. Then the wife complains that you are doing your Kung foo/mma/boxing every night and ignoring the family. Meanwhile with all this training you are getting fatter. Meanwhile your already fat coach is telling you how much you will learn through teaching. Then I tell him, "Too bad learning new things does not translate into skills".

Anyone here who teaches classes(not private one person at a time) have a different experience than what I described above?

Yes, Me

Teaching is a platform that can take your kung fu skills to the next level (if you do it right).

1. Teaching a form or drills over and over will ingrain them in your muscle memory better. There are form and drills that I will never forget (even if I wanted to forget them).

2. Drilling with beginners is a great way to improve your skills. Beginners are always unpredictable and force you to keep on your toes. (example I told a beginner to throw a front toe kick and they lauched a left jab to my head... had to react quick).

3. Working with children will improve your patients and understanding of how all people learn and absorb kung fu skills. I observed some kids learn thru visual seeing it. Some kids learn thru doing it. some kids learn only if I help them move their arms for them etc etc.

I am almost 50 now and I still fight / spar with my students, I still wrestle / Shuai Chiao with them... there is no excuse really.

I can go on and on with more examples but it is up to you to make it work.

Running a school and practicing on your own can be a challenge. I get up before the kids in the am and do a Iron Palm hitting. Then take the kids to school. and head off to the kung fu school. Then I do my own lin gung / cardio workout for myself. (Some summer morning I teach a bunch of kids at their summer camps). Then teach a morning adult kung fu class. Afternoon I do a 2nd Iron Palm hitting and work my forms / drills. Then teach classes from 4-9PM.

You can do it if you work it right.

ginosifu

[RWilson]

Yes, Me

Teaching is a platform that can take your kung fu skills to the next level (if you do it right).

1. Teaching a form or drills over and over will ingrain them in your muscle memory better. There are form and drills that I will never forget (even if I wanted to forget them).

2. Drilling with beginners is a great way to improve your skills. Beginners are always unpredictable and force you to keep on your toes. (example I told a beginner to throw a front toe kick and they lauched a left jab to my head... had to react quick).

3. Working with children will improve your patients and understanding of how all people learn and absorb kung fu skills. I observed some kids learn thru visual seeing it. Some kids learn thru doing it. some kids learn only if I help them move their arms for them etc etc.

I am almost 50 now and I still fight / spar with my students, I still wrestle / Shuai Chiao with them... there is no excuse really.

I can go on and on with more examples but it is up to you to make it work.

Running a school and practicing on your own can be a challenge. I get up before the kids in the am and do a Iron Palm hitting. Then take the kids to school. and head off to the kung fu school. Then I do my own lin gung / cardio workout for myself. (Some summer morning I teach a bunch of kids at their summer camps). Then teach a morning adult kung fu class. Afternoon I do a 2nd Iron Palm hitting and work my forms / drills. Then teach classes from 4-9PM.

You can do it if you work it right.

ginosifu

Nice post. Ginosifu did not Bette me like the other a-hole.

[David Jamieson]

Nice post. Ginosifu did not Bette me like the other a-hole.

To be upfront with you, your style and come on is belittling.

I mean it's great that you like to be treated with some respect.
I like it too. In fact, I like it so much I am reciprocal with it.

No need to put on airs or cause trouble with written snideness and demanding pics of abs and such.

Own your own stuff. Post your own pics. Prove your own points.
It can get good.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yes, Me

Teaching is a platform that can take your kung fu skills to the next level (if you do it right).

1. Teaching a form or drills over and over will ingrain them in your muscle memory better. There are form and drills that I will never forget (even if I wanted to forget them).

2. Drilling with beginners is a great way to improve your skills. Beginners are always unpredictable and force you to keep on your toes. (example I told a beginner to throw a front toe kick and they lauched a left jab to my head... had to react quick).

3. Working with children will improve your patients and understanding of how all people learn and absorb kung fu skills. I observed some kids learn thru visual seeing it. Some kids learn thru doing it. some kids learn only if I help them move their arms for them etc etc.

I am almost 50 now and I still fight / spar with my students, I still wrestle / Shuai Chiao with them... there is no excuse really.

I can go on and on with more examples but it is up to you to make it work.

Running a school and practicing on your own can be a challenge. I get up before the kids in the am and do a Iron Palm hitting. Then take the kids to school. and head off to the kung fu school. Then I do my own lin gung / cardio workout for myself. (Some summer morning I teach a bunch of kids at their summer camps). Then teach a morning adult kung fu class. Afternoon I do a 2nd Iron Palm hitting and work my forms / drills. Then teach classes from 4-9PM.

You can do it if you work it right.

ginosifu

Well said.
When I teached I always found time to work out and, like Gino said, teaching makes you a better MA because you learn by teaching also, especially kids.
It is far easier for the full time teacher to maintain their skills of course and that is why I stopped teaching.
I simply did not have the time to teach AND progress.
Besides, teaching is NOT for everyone.
Most of us, myself included, still have FAR TOO Much to learn before it should be "passed on".

[jdhowland]

I would say it's not really the death of personal skills but the teacher should be there for his students, paying attention to them and not just glorying in what he has to offer them. That means you have to work out on your own time. Class time belongs to the students.

As previously pointed out, you do learn more and soving problems for others can clarify your thinking about your own training.

Eventually you may find students good enough to be training partners. That's when you set aside time not for teaching, but for mutual learning. It pays off in the end.

[Lee Chiang Po]

You start teaching and before you know it every time you go to class you are running it. In the past every time you went to class you had a workout and learned something new. Now you have to come up with lesson plans and you have to watch people. You hold the pads, fix posture, show takedowns, etc and then spend the rest of class watching everyone fuk it up.

You hold a stop watch and yell at everyone to keep doing jumping jacks, push ups...and stop doing them on your own. Now you have to teach and find separate days to work out. Then the wife complains that you are doing your Kung foo/mma/boxing every night and ignoring the family. Meanwhile with all this training you are getting fatter. Meanwhile your already fat coach is telling you how much you will learn through teaching. Then I tell him, "Too bad learning new things does not translate into skills".

Anyone here who teaches classes(not private one person at a time) have a different experience than what I described above?


If you are paying, then you are being screwed. You are providing a service, performing a job of work for the owner of the kwoon or gym. Don't do it. If you do, insist on being paid for it. Your sifu gets lazy and lets you take up his slack.
Working out and exercising is not training. It is just developing physical fitness for the task. Training is learning martial arts in you case. I would not waste my time doing all that physical stuff as it can be done at home. All this does is take away from your learning experience, which you are paying for. Learning just a tad now and then will take you years to learn. You should be able to master an entire system in under 2 years. After that it is just maintainence.

[Nei-Jia-Quan]

Rwilson, it seems you really aren't enjoying teaching, and i'm sure your students are able to sense this in your poor attitude. My advice is to quit teaching since it's not fair to your students or yourself. Go back to being a student somewhere and maybe that will improve your disposition. BTW if you feel that iron palm is fantasy and a waste of time you probably shouldnt be studying chinese martial arts which has many styles that train it with excellent results. It's a basic skill like most training. Saying that iron palm is fantasy is a fantasy in your own head.

[RWilson]

Rwilson, it seems you really aren't enjoying teaching, and i'm sure your students are able to sense this in your poor attitude. My advice is to quit teaching since it's not fair to your students or yourself. Go back to being a student somewhere and maybe that will improve your disposition. BTW if you feel that iron palm is fantasy and a waste of time you probably shouldnt be studying chinese martial arts which has many styles that train it with excellent results. It's a basic skill like most training. Saying that iron palm is fantasy is a fantasy in your own head.

I do not teach anymore. I have stepped away from the world of tcma. Iron palm is considered advanced training. Hand conditioning is basic. Iron palm is supposed to be something different from hand conditioning or they woild just call it hand conditioning. So what if you can break a coconut? You cannot do to someone that is actually moving.

[Drake]

Dude, take this however you want, but you are coming across as a seriously whiny *****.

It's *****ing and moaning like this that gives MA (any kind) a ****ing terrible name.

[MightyB]

You start teaching and before you know it every time you go to class you are running it. In the past every time you went to class you had a workout and learned something new. Now you have to come up with lesson plans and you have to watch people. You hold the pads, fix posture, show takedowns, etc and then spend the rest of class watching everyone fuk it up.

You hold a stop watch and yell at everyone to keep doing jumping jacks, push ups...and stop doing them on your own. Now you have to teach and find separate days to work out. Then the wife complains that you are doing your Kung foo/mma/boxing every night and ignoring the family. Meanwhile with all this training you are getting fatter. Meanwhile your already fat coach is telling you how much you will learn through teaching. Then I tell him, "Too bad learning new things does not translate into skills".

Anyone here who teaches classes(not private one person at a time) have a different experience than what I described above?

This is more common than people here are letting on. Part of what you're experiencing is a skills gap. Maybe you'll get lucky and have one of the students get up to a reasonable skill level where they can give you some fight... most likely they'll drop out and you'll find that most of your time will be teaching a new set of beginners the same ol' shiite. One danger that you can run into is that you'll start to forget the advanced stuff because of this.

[Nei-Jia-Quan]

Actually Iron Palm is hand conditioning. It's taught as a skill from basic to advanced levels. It's not just advanced. You need a qualified instructor to teach it correctly so you don't accidently injure yourself in training. And of course you need to use Iron Palm Jow to help heal and prevent injury. But most people in good physical condition can start training in it within a few years of studying their chosen style or even sooner. As far as it being used in application any time you hit your opponent it can cause injury. If your training is done correctly when you fight you should be able to use distancing and timing to your advantage and strike a moving target. In a fight all martial artists must be able to hit a moving opponent.

[MightyB]

You start teaching and before you know it every time you go to class you are running it. In the past every time you went to class you had a workout and learned something new. Now you have to come up with lesson plans and you have to watch people. You hold the pads, fix posture, show takedowns, etc and then spend the rest of class watching everyone fuk it up.

You hold a stop watch and yell at everyone to keep doing jumping jacks, push ups...and stop doing them on your own. Now you have to teach and find separate days to work out. Then the wife complains that you are doing your Kung foo/mma/boxing every night and ignoring the family. Meanwhile with all this training you are getting fatter. Meanwhile your already fat coach is telling you how much you will learn through teaching. Then I tell him, "Too bad learning new things does not translate into skills".

Anyone here who teaches classes(not private one person at a time) have a different experience than what I described above?

I'm also going to ad that you bring up a valid point for the younger people here lurking this forum. There's a marked difference in the experience you'll get from teaching as compared to being a student. So it's very important to do a deep soul searching before you accept an assistant or instructor's position.

[David Jamieson]

I do not teach anymore. I have stepped away from the world of tcma. Iron palm is considered advanced training. Hand conditioning is basic. Iron palm is supposed to be something different from hand conditioning or they would just call it hand conditioning. So what if you can break a coconut? You cannot do to someone that is actually moving.

It'll break a jaw. :) Slap/Pop/down.

That's iron palm for you and it is more than hand conditioning yes.
The focus of many iron skills is conditioning, but also awareness and protection.

When you strike someone with force, you get that force feedback as well. Without understanding the components necessary to maximize damage output while reducing the damage feedback leads many to injuries.

I have had people come into my training space and want to go hit the bag.
Ok, go hit the bag. It's a 90 lb everlast and almost to the last, wrist bends and skin tears are the rule of the day with the over enthusiastic male who deems himself indestructible.

Even boxers take time to condition that in themselves. Your skin doesn't toughen in a couple of days. You don't develop conditioned power in a couple of months and you don't develop real power that you can control and expel in the context of fighting in a short period of time either.

The methods of developing skills and conditioning vary and come under different names, but ultimately we all share the human form and the human mind and the human experience. As fighting is simple and is coming from a simple place, most methods are simple and anyone with a modicum of intelligence can grasp them and use them right away.

But they will take time. It takes time. Nothing is immediate and even naturals have a plateau they reach and then they fall under the person who takes the time to train.

Here's a truth. Humans are weak and useless when it comes to real physical power and force. The strongest man in the world is nothing compared to a chimp when it comes to strength or physical ability to render someone as fugged up. We are soft, we are small, many of us can't handle a friggin bee sting.

sport fighting is fun. martial arts are fun, but lets not kid ourselves when it comes to regarding real violence and how to do it.

train for the sake of it because you like it. Not because you have some deluded ideal about what power a human has, you have practically none compared to every other creature above you.

Your brain is your actual weapon.

[RWilson]

It'll break a jaw. :) Slap/Pop/down.

That's iron palm for you and it is more than hand conditioning yes.
The focus of many iron skills is conditioning, but also awareness and protection.

When you strike someone with force, you get that force feedback as well. Without understanding the components necessary to maximize damage output while reducing the damage feedback leads many to injuries.

I have had people come into my training space and want to go hit the bag.
Ok, go hit the bag. It's a 90 lb everlast and almost to the last, wrist bends and skin tears are the rule of the day with the over enthusiastic male who deems himself indestructible.

Even boxers take time to condition that in themselves. Your skin doesn't toughen in a couple of days. You don't develop conditioned power in a couple of months and you don't develop real power that you can control and expel in the context of fighting in a short period of time either.

The methods of developing skills and conditioning vary and come under different names, but ultimately we all share the human form and the human mind and the human experience. As fighting is simple and is coming from a simple place, most methods are simple and anyone with a modicum of intelligence can grasp them and use them right away.

But they will take time. It takes time. Nothing is immediate and even naturals have a plateau they reach and then they fall under the person who takes the time to train.

Here's a truth. Humans are weak and useless when it comes to real physical power and force. The strongest man in the world is nothing compared to a chimp when it comes to strength or physical ability to render someone as fugged up. We are soft, we are small, many of us can't handle a friggin bee sting.

sport fighting is fun. martial arts are fun, but lets not kid ourselves when it comes to regarding real violence and how to do it.

train for the sake of it because you like it. Not because you have some deluded ideal about what power a human has, you have practically none compared to every other creature above you.

Your brain is your actual weapon.


Good post, David. I agree especially with the part about the brain being our greatest weapon.

That is why I do not consider iron palm to be advanced. Being able to avoid a lead jab and hit back is advanced. Being able to throw someone who is trying to throw you or strike you is advanced. All require the brain. Iron palm is basically bashing your hand till it gets hard and then assuming you are going to cave someone's face in when conflict arises. Better to train the method that will get you to the part where you can cave his face in.

[RWilson]

I'm also going to ad that you bring up a valid point for the younger people here lurking this forum. There's a marked difference in the experience you'll get from teaching as compared to being a student. So it's very important to do a deep soul searching before you accept an assistant or instructor's position.

Great stuff MightyB.

You do not have business teaching unless you are getting paid. It becomes a drag. And the part about the soul searching is true. You should not become an assistant instructor until you are ready to retire from progessing your skills. When you do not care about training anymore then that might be a good time to start helping out.

[RWilson]

Dude, take this however you want, but you are coming across as a seriously whiny *****.

It's *****ing and moaning like this that gives MA (any kind) a ****ing terrible name.

This coming from the guy who is in Afghanistan getting all his meals provided for him, orders on what to do everyday, etc.

Your life gets run by the army. Whenever you come back to civilian life, hold a civilian job, AND teach classes on top of that we will talk then. Until thy day comes enjoy having army ground beef cooked by someone else and never yourself. It is no wonder we see many of you guys have trouble reintegrating into real life after your service is over.

Oh wait, I forgot. You are not the regular army man. You are part of the super elite army intelligence. You kill warriors with your barehands...and Ben go to the mess hall to get your already cooked meal.

[Dale Dugas]

Anytime you want to see someone who can apply their Iron Palm in fighting, come see me.

I strike, kick, throw as well as use my iron palm.

that you have not been trained well is no ones fault but your own.

[Drake]

This coming from the guy who is in Afghanistan getting all his meals provided for him, orders on what to do everyday, etc.

Your life gets run by the army. Whenever you come back to civilian life, hold a civilian job, AND teach classes on top of that we will talk then. Until thy day comes enjoy having army ground beef cooked by someone else and never yourself. It is no wonder we see many of you guys have trouble reintegrating into real life after your service is over.

Oh wait, I forgot. You are not the regular army man. You are part of the super elite army intelligence. You kill warriors with your barehands...and Ben go to the mess hall to get your already cooked meal.

I won't get into the ridiculousness of the post itself, nor will I note your ignorance on numerous counts, but I do have to wonder. Who the hell is Ben?

[RWilson]

Anytime you want to see someone who can apply their Iron Palm in fighting, come see me.

I strike, kick, throw as well as use my iron palm.

that you have not been trained well is no ones fault but your own.

We have been through this before. Why would I want to see a giant manhandle students that are the size of children compared to himself? That is not skill. Just because I can beat up everyone in the kids class does not mean I am skilled. Fight with people your own size before talking smack. Have guys your size hit you when showing iron body. And while you are at it get some real punchers your size to hit you not guys in pajamas doing hsing I elements.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfVhDHlsWCw&feature=youtube_gdata_player



That has always been your problem, Dale. You have this false bravado based off of your size and baby sized students but not based on actual fighting experience.

[RWilson]

I won't get into the ridiculousness of the post itself, nor will I note your ignorance on numerous counts, but I do have to wonder. Who the hell is Ben?

You are not the only person who has ever been in the army. I have friends who were in the army. Are they ignorant as well? Lol

[Drake]

You are not the only person who has ever been in the army. I have friends who were in the army. Are they ignorant as well? Lol

Such a whiner.

And yeah, they are pretty ignorant.

Shut up and train, whiner. Bawang would have kicked the ever-loving **** out of you if you were learning from him.

[hskwarrior]

Who the hell is Ben?

lmfao....was thinking the same thing :D

[TenTigers]

I will say this-teaching had made my hands too polite, and I had to work at getting them back. Luckily, I have my teacher and Si-Hing's to give me help. (ouch)

[RWilson]

Such a whiner.

And yeah, they are pretty ignorant.

Shut up and train, whiner. Bawang would have kicked the ever-loving **** out of you if you were learning from him.

Only Drake's army experience counts apparently. Put one more notch on the belt of super Drake. He is the modern day Rambo accept he has his
meals prepared for him. What a grown up, non- whiner.

[Lucas]

I do not teach anymore. I have stepped away from the world of tcma. Iron palm is considered advanced training. Hand conditioning is basic. Iron palm is supposed to be something different from hand conditioning or they woild just call it hand conditioning. So what if you can break a coconut? You cannot do to someone that is actually moving.


you should watch sanjuro ronins vid of phoenix eye hook punch on heavy bag. take one of those to the neck and tell me there isnt a speciality to it... :rolleyes:

you basically admit you dont really know anything about 'iron palm' types of training, and then dismiss it. if i want to dismiss something as non practical, i do my homework first.

can you do with out it? of course. if you have it, does it make a difference? fug ya it does.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Rwilson,
You seem to be under a few misconceptions about certain TCMA practices and as such, I think that best thing is to experience them for yourself.
If you can't or unwilling to for whatever reason BUT are open to understanding the correct principles behind them, then we can discuss them of course.
I don't think it's fair to right things off without knowing them.
Iron palm is, at its core, nothing more than a the progressive increase for bone density via continuous low impact trauma to the hand ( Wolfs Law as it applied to impact).
It is also a lot more than JUST that, the way it is done allows the correct effects WITHOUT any negative side effects commonly associated with such things.
Most people that do IP do it because they have found that it works and they know this via direct experimentation.
It does NOT make a better fighter or a better MA or anything like that, just like being more flexible doesn't make you a better fighter or having more endurance or being stronger.
Being a better fighter makes you a better fighter.

[TaichiMantis]

I know the difference when I hit or get hit by classmates who are in the iron skills training. They can take and give with less damage to themselves, just another aspect of training in our system.http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6125/5972036686_d04ccb6f0f_d.jpg

[MightyB]

is that you getting smacked in the ribs taichi?

[sanjuro_ronin]

To make a point clear before someone brings up the obvious about that pic of "Iron body":
The static part of the training ( Standing there and getting hit) is ONE part of iron body work, the novice part, one then progresses to getting hit WHILE hitting ( under controlled circumstances) and eventually to full contact sparring.
How far a student goes is up to them.

[bawang]

Rwilson,
You seem to be under a few misconceptions about certain TCMA practices and as such, I think that best thing is to experience them for yourself.


his position is not rare. it feels very bad to be humiliated by passive aggressive people in martial arts. bullshido has hundreds of people with similar experience as him.

[sanjuro_ronin]

his position is not rare. it feels very bad to be humiliated by passive aggressive people in martial arts. bullshido has hundreds of people with similar experience as him.

That's fine and understandable.
But if one is truly seeking to understand and to know, then it's ok to point our our views AND listen to others and truly experience something before writing it off.

[bawang]

maybe hes still terribly in love with the images that deceived him in the first place, the mister miyagi/kwan chang fantasy, and that makes him bitter.

maybe hes angry that there is nothing he can do to avenge his humiliation by the passive aggresive martial artists. since they dont fight. what can you do to them?

whatever the reason, hes not being overly offensive, i think its good to have different opinions on internet discussions.

[Lucas]

the greatest people ive ever met (in anything in life) have always had an open minded attitude, and the drive to discover for themselves how things are the way they are.

life is very big. so big in fact none of us can experience it all, not even a fraction of it. we all have to leave things to the side to persue our goals and desires, but if you do leave it to the side, its also proper to acknowledge that its something you have chosen not to discover. talking from a point of ignorance, whilst assuming you speak from a point of experience is only detrimental to our own develpment.

[ShaolinDan]

the greatest people ive ever met (in anything in life) have always had an open minded attitude, and the drive to discover for themselves how things are the way they are.

life is very big. so big in fact none of us can experience it all, not even a fraction of it. we all have to leave things to the side to persue our goals and desires, but if you do leave it to the side, its also proper to acknowledge that its something you have chosen not to discover. talking from a point of ignorance, whilst assuming you speak from a point of experience is only detrimental to our own develpment.

Truth.

To address the OP: Teaching teaches a lot. It develops the eye, and also clarifies things--there are lots of movements I've learned to do, but never really learned to break down until I tried teaching them. Explaining something to someone else is very helpful for clarifying in our own mind. Also teaching involves a lot of demonstrating, which helps with form. Also helps learn to read people. My school has enough classes (and enough teachers) that you can teach without giving up much training time. Finally, if you want to find training time while you teach, it's not so hard--just set a good example for each exercise.

[MightyB]

the greatest people ive ever met (in anything in life) have always had an open minded attitude, and the drive to discover for themselves how things are the way they are.


I'm the greatest person I know and I'm always right!

[sanjuro_ronin]

whatever the reason, hes not being overly offensive, i think its good to have different opinions on internet discussions.

I agree, I am all for "question and test everything", I mean, why on earth WOULDN'T you?
But I am wondering if he IS questioning AND testing or just questioning...

[Lucas]

I'm the greatest person I know and I'm always right!

same here!!!!!!!!

[Lucas]

we all also know that what the OP mentions in regards to teaching for his sifu is not an overly uncommon experienc...it blows and all you can do is either confront the situation or leave. :(

[sanjuro_ronin]

I see your great person and raise you greater cleavage !
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_g4bSv8l29UQ/S9Uw6hODlTI/AAAAAAAAAJI/kqTtss4qDhU/s1600/1hayek-cleavage3.jpg

[ShaolinDan]

we all also know that what the OP mentions in regards to teaching for his sifu is not an overly uncommon experienc...it blows and all you can do is either confront the situation or leave. :(

And we also know that the OP has already managed to get himself banned from this forum at least twice. :p

[MightyB]

Truth.

To address the OP: Teaching teaches a lot. It develops the eye, and also clarifies things--there are lots of movements I've learned to do, but never really learned to break down until I tried teaching them. Explaining something to someone else is very helpful for clarifying in our own mind. Also teaching involves a lot of demonstrating, which helps with form. Also helps learn to read people. My school has enough classes (and enough teachers) that you can teach without giving up much training time. Finally, if you want to find training time while you teach, it's not so hard--just set a good example for each exercise.

I do understand his frustration though. I find that we're constantly training new people. We have a small club right now and it seems that when we get someone to the point where it's fun for all of us - they end up dropping out because of a change in their life circumstances... they join the military, get married, move because of a job change or something like that. Then you have to wait for another potential and start from scratch.

[bawang]

i make my students do taichi to this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKiK-L36ays&feature=relmfu

am i doing it right

[Lucas]

And we also know that the OP has already managed to get himself banned from this forum at least twice. :p

man i cant keep track of all the returns...:o

my forum fu is weak i have no idea who he is

[ShaolinDan]

man i cant keep track of all the returns...:o

my forum fu is weak i have no idea who he is

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1145596&highlight=rwilson#post1145596

[Lucas]

i bow to da masta

[RWilson]

And we also know that the OP has already managed to get himself banned from this forum at least twice. :p

I have nothing to hide about my past here. I am the guy who scared Dave Ross away from the board by reminding him that there was a video of his one San da fight still out there somewhere.

[Lucas]

I have nothing to hide about my past here. I am the guy who scared Dave Ross away from the board by reminding him that there was a video of his one San da fight still out there somewhere.

lol. i heard he was somewhere shaking in his boots from the internet whooping u gave him. :rolleyes:

[IronFist]

That is why I do not consider iron palm to be advanced. Being able to avoid a lead jab and hit back is advanced. Being able to throw someone who is trying to throw you or strike you is advanced. All require the brain. Iron palm is basically bashing your hand till it gets hard and then assuming you are going to cave someone's face in when conflict arises. Better to train the method that will get you to the part where you can cave his face in.

Agreed.


We have been through this before. Why would I want to see a giant manhandle students that are the size of children compared to himself? That is not skill. Just because I can beat up everyone in the kids class does not mean I am skilled. Fight with people your own size before talking smack. Have guys your size hit you when showing iron body. And while you are at it get some real punchers your size to hit you not guys in pajamas doing hsing I elements.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfVhDHlsWCw&feature=youtube_gdata_player



That has always been your problem, Dale. You have this false bravado based off of your size and baby sized students but not based on actual fighting experience.

Agreed.


Rwilson,
You seem to be under a few misconceptions about certain TCMA practices and as such, I think that best thing is to experience them for yourself.
If you can't or unwilling to for whatever reason BUT are open to understanding the correct principles behind them, then we can discuss them of course.
I don't think it's fair to right things off without knowing them.
Iron palm is, at its core, nothing more than a the progressive increase for bone density via continuous low impact trauma to the hand ( Wolfs Law as it applied to impact).
It is also a lot more than JUST that, the way it is done allows the correct effects WITHOUT any negative side effects commonly associated with such things.
Most people that do IP do it because they have found that it works and they know this via direct experimentation.
It does NOT make a better fighter or a better MA or anything like that, just like being more flexible doesn't make you a better fighter or having more endurance or being stronger.
Being a better fighter makes you a better fighter.


Agreed.

[RWilson]

lol. i heard he was somewhere shaking in his boots from the internet whooping u gave him. :rolleyes:

Now why did you guys have to go get me started. I was not going to say a word about any of this till he returned.

You should have see him shaking in the video. Ok. My lips are sealed.

[bawang]

mighty david ross was poisoned by evil japanese during that fight. the video proves nothing.



NOTIHNG

[RWilson]

mighty david ross was poisoned by evil japanese during that fight. the video proves nothing.



NOTIHNG

Was it the same Japanese that poisoned jet li in Fearless?

Lol. You are too funny.

[Lucas]

mighty david ross was poisoned by evil japanese during that fight. the video proves nothing.



NOTIHNG

i hear his student got revenge tho

[bawang]

rwilson, if you open your mouth and insult mighty david ross again (peace be upon him) it is a direct insult to me.

and i do not take insults lightly.

*rubs testicles

[Lucas]

watch out bawang has a helichopper

[RWilson]

watch out bawang has a helichopper

Bawang is all the way in Canada. I have nothing to fear from him.

[Lucas]

Bawang is all the way in Canada. I have nothing to fear from him.

ya but he has chopper. he can be ANYWHERE!!!!! hes like airwolf man!!

[bawang]

Bawang is all the way in Canada. I have nothing to fear from him.

I CHALLENG YOU









to internet push hands.

i lead with a peng, hiding ying intent with ji. i gather qi inside my dantian, sending it to the shenzhong point, then banhui, then laogong. i align myself north-south to earth's magnetic field. what is your response?

[David Jamieson]

That's too many moves to open with.
You have to now stand in zhangzhuan for 3 minutes and cultivate qi.

Your opponent may have a penalty shot which can only include an expelling of stale qi in your general direction.

[PalmStriker]

If you are paying, then you are being screwed. You are providing a service, performing a job of work for the owner of the kwoon or gym. Don't do it. If you do, insist on being paid for it. Your sifu gets lazy and lets you take up his slack.
Working out and exercising is not training. It is just developing physical fitness for the task. Training is learning martial arts in you case. I would not waste my time doing all that physical stuff as it can be done at home. All this does is take away from your learning experience, which you are paying for. Learning just a tad now and then will take you years to learn. You should be able to master an entire system in under 2 years. After that it is just maintainence. What he said. :D

[PalmStriker]

maybe hes still terribly in love with the images that deceived him in the first place, the mister miyagi/kwan chang fantasy, and that makes him bitter.

maybe hes angry that there is nothing he can do to avenge his humiliation by the passive aggresive martial artists. since they dont fight. what can you do to them?

whatever the reason, hes not being overly offensive, i think its good to have different opinions on internet discussions. LOL , that is why you are the Professor! You won smat guy. :D All this fast talk make me hungry, http://www.google.com/search?q=pictures+of+mandarin+cuisine&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=VKz&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&prmd=imvnse&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=2kr2T5a8NKWt0AH9yc3zBg&ved=0CGMQsAQ&biw=1440&bih=807

[RWilson]

I CHALLENG YOU









to internet push hands.

i lead with a peng, hiding ying intent with ji. i gather qi inside my dantian, sending it to the shenzhong point, then banhui, then laogong. i align myself north-south to earth's magnetic field. what is your response?

I will either just step back and let you fall on your face or say, "Why the heck would I waste my time doing push hands?" and then inwpold give up. You cannot win push hands because the stupid rules favor the guy who is only good at rooting and pushing.

[Dale Dugas]

We have been through this before. Why would I want to see a giant manhandle students that are the size of children compared to himself? That is not skill. Just because I can beat up everyone in the kids class does not mean I am skilled. Fight with people your own size before talking smack. Have guys your size hit you when showing iron body. And while you are at it get some real punchers your size to hit you not guys in pajamas doing hsing I elements.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfVhDHlsWCw&feature=youtube_gdata_player



That has always been your problem, Dale. You have this false bravado based off of your size and baby sized students but not based on actual fighting experience.

For the Record:

At least people know who I am, where I am , and what I do rather than whine and complain and snipe at people. Remember all those hateful things you said in the recent past??

You are nothing more than yet another mouth boxer who hides behind the internet.

Good luck with life, and come see me when you need a treatment when your Liver Qi turns to Liver Fire Rising from all the hate you spread.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I have nothing to hide about my past here. I am the guy who scared Dave Ross away from the board by reminding him that there was a video of his one San da fight still out there somewhere.

Actually, Dave left when he realized that all he had been doing was a huge waste of time.
That trying to open the eyes of TCMA that WANT to keep them closed is pointless and that, to him, the purpose of this forum had been lost.

[MightyB]

Actually, Dave left when he realized that all he had been doing was a huge waste of time.
That trying to open the eyes of TCMA that WANT to keep them closed is pointless and that, to him, the purpose of this forum had been lost.

Got to call it -

Who's Purpose?

[MasterKiller]

I have nothing to hide about my past here. I am the guy who scared Dave Ross away from the board by reminding him that there was a video of his one San da fight still out there somewhere.

LOL. That video has been posted about 150 times on the Underground. You didn't 'remind' him of anything.

You mad?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Got to call it -

Who's Purpose?

The original purpose of the forum, which was to educate AND promote TCMA.
But seems to allow more perpetuation of myths and BS in TCMA than to "wake" people up.

[MightyB]

The original purpose of the forum, which was to educate AND promote TCMA.

It actually does this quite well. I've known of several meet ups and connections that have been made in the TCMA community because of this forum.


But seems to allow more perpetuation of myths and BS in TCMA than to "wake" people up.
This is an Agenda statement and a personal view point at best... especially when talking myths and BS. Who's myths - who's BS?

[ShaolinDan]

The original purpose of the forum, which was to educate AND promote TCMA.
But seems to allow more perpetuation of myths and BS in TCMA than to "wake" people up.

I thought the original purpose of the forum was to give vendors associated with KFTCM and MAM another venue to reach clients... :p

[David Jamieson]

Actually, Dave left when he realized that all he had been doing was a huge waste of time.
That trying to open the eyes of TCMA that WANT to keep them closed is pointless and that, to him, the purpose of this forum had been lost.

I think you give Dave way too much credit. lol

He was trying to generate business for his club mostly and did so through often diminishing others with an all too often acerbic and acidic character. Intentionally or unintentionally, he is definitely not the voice of inspired change.

You ain't gonna open any eyes with Dave's attitude. Too much vinegar. :p

Just an observation. Other than that, I'm sure Dave is a funny and fun guy to hang with and practice with. besides the whole jerkwad thing he keeps projecting at me, but I give it back in spades. He hasn't been around for a spadeful lately though. probably too hard on him to come and mix it up with the lovers and the haters. Who knows, maybe he is training? lol

RWilson, you are a piece of sandpaper. But you're not over the top jerk about it.

I think the issue is being judgmental of those things which you have no experience in whatsoever beyond watching a youtube video. That is detrimental to any message you might be trying to convey regarding the grass roots hard work of training.

[RWilson]

I think you give Dave way too much credit. lol

He was trying to generate business for his club mostly and did so through often diminishing others with an all too often acerbic and acidic character. Intentionally or unintentionally, he is definitely not the voice of inspired change.

You ain't gonna open any eyes with Dave's attitude. Too much vinegar. :p

Just an observation. Other than that, I'm sure Dave is a funny and fun guy to hang with and practice with. besides the whole jerkwad thing he keeps projecting at me, but I give it back in spades. He hasn't been around for a spadeful lately though. probably too hard on him to come and mix it up with the lovers and the haters. Who knows, maybe he is training? lol

RWilson, you are a piece of sandpaper. But you're not over the top jerk about it.

I think the issue is being judgmental of those things which you have no experience in whatsoever beyond watching a youtube video. That is detrimental to any message you might be trying to convey regarding the grass roots hard work of training.


Thanks for the compliment, Jameson. It warms my heart.

Important announcement: I have defeated Bawang in mortal combat. His new position is fluffer to the court princes even if the princes do not want it.

[I Hate Ashida Kim]

For the Record:

At least people know who I am, where I am , and what I do rather than whine and complain and snipe at people. Remember all those hateful things you said in the recent past??

You are nothing more than yet another mouth boxer who hides behind the internet.

Good luck with life, and come see me when you need a treatment when your Liver Qi turns to Liver Fire Rising from all the hate you spread.

In every thread of yours I read it's always the same argument. What does giving your name and address have to do with anything? You always give your name and tell people where you are, and that's fine, but it doesn't invalidate anything others say.

Dale: "I have mad qigong skillz!"

Anyone: "Can you prove it against competent fighters? Because in your demos you have people much smaller than you hitting you with flowery pajama techniques..."

Dale: "I put my real name, address, and phone number online. You do not. Therefore your arguments are invalidated and I still have mad qigong skillz."

Like... what is the reply you want?

Anyone: "My name is Joe Schmoe and I live at 742 Evergreen Terrace."

Dale: "Crap! My qigong skillz aren't as powerful as I thought?"

What does giving your name and location have to do with anything being discussed?

[Drake]

At least Dale is certified, and his work goes far beyond simple fighting techniques. Sounds like sour grapes, if you ask me.

As for the "big guy" myth, I have taken out plenty of guys bigger than me, and have been taken out by very skilled people who were smaller than me. It's all about skill and training.

[RWilson]

At least Dale is certified, and his work goes far beyond simple fighting techniques. Sounds like sour grapes, if you ask me.

As for the "big guy" myth, I have taken out plenty of guys bigger than me, and have been taken out by very skilled people who were smaller than me. It's all about skill and training.

Certified as what? He was certified by a guy who copies and pastes the same stupid face on all his pics. And he is a Texas ranger to boot!

Ashida has a point. Who cares who Dale is in real life? His online persona is that of a tcmaist that has the goods and can fight. That is the aura he puts off. If he cannot support it with evidence, which he can't, he should stop bring it up.

Drake, you are my hero. What are they serving for lunch today in the mess hall?

[Drake]

I invite you to look it up. What credentials do YOU hold? Certified whiner? Certified complainer? Or is it now certified hater of other peoples' success?

Oh, and it's called a DFAC, and I live off post in a nice condo. I eat at home or at a restaurant, thanks. Mess hall? Watch war movies much? You probably think we live in tents and carry around rifles and grenades everywhere we go, too.

[MightyB]

What does giving your name and location have to do with anything being discussed?

Giving your real name does ad to the validity of your argument. It says "I stand behind what I post". You have to be confident in what you're saying because people will know who you are and what you're saying. This is me - not some silly pseudonym.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Giving your real name does ad to the validity of your argument. It says "I stand behind what I post". You have to be confident in what you're saying because people will know who you are and what you're saying. This is me - not some silly pseudonym.

Even those of us that do guy by our silly tags, like myself, have made our real names and experiences clear online a few times over.
While I can understand a desire for certain anonymity, there is no reason to hide unless you have something to hide.

[SimonM]

I thought the original purpose of the forum was to give vendors associated with KFTCM and MAM another venue to reach clients... :p

Burn win! :D

[pateticorecords]

I CHALLENG YOU









to internet push hands.

i lead with a peng, hiding ying intent with ji. i gather qi inside my dantian, sending it to the shenzhong point, then banhui, then laogong. i align myself north-south to earth's magnetic field. what is your response?you had laughing out loud Bawang...lol

[IronFist]

Why doesn't anyone understand that the onus of proof is on the person who makes the claim?

Kung fu logic:
- dude makes a claim about qigong or whatever
- 50 year old skeptic woman questions him
- dude challenges woman to post her real name and fight him. If she cannot defeat him in a fight she is obviously wrong and he is obviously right


Real logic
- dude makes a claim about qigong or whatever
- 50 year old skeptic woman questions him
- dude making the claim provides the proof, for example, by using his skill against trained fighters of a similar size, not by challenging the 50 year old woman


This reminds of schoolyard bullies who are like "I'm right because I'm bigger than you" http://smiliesftw.com/x/laugh.gif (http://smiliesftw.com)

That actually explains a lot about why TCMA is the way it is, though :o

But really, would beating up a 50 year old woman impress people? Do you think people would accept that as proof of your skills? Actually, don't answer that, because sadly I think a lot of morons might.

Logic is the enemy of charlatans and snakeoil salesmen so they will attempt to use social agreement to win over the masses (for example, like what you see at timeshare sales pitches), or by saying things like "some people will never believe anything." That's actually false; we'll believe it when we see conclusive proof.

Otherwise, it's like saying you invented a bullet proof vest and it stops bullets, but you've only demoed it against Nerf guns. But it really does stop bullets and anyone who doesn't believe you is just a fool hiding behind the internet and a coward :D

Nevermind the fact that all you have to do is show that it can stop a bullet from a real gun. That's it. Piece of cake if it really works.

[Lucas]

at least on here we are all martial artists ( one would assume..i suppose some of us might be 50 year old women...) so for dales case in particular how many times has he been questioned then responded with. come see for yourself, 'my door is always open' dale has no idea how big the questioner is, how much training he has, nor how mentally stable they are, yet he still invites them to his place to test him themselves.

to me that is 'putting your money where your mouth is' and very few people leave that open option to come test them to all who want to.

no way in hell i would invite strangers on the internet to come test me out. im not THAT crazy...apparently dale is.

[Lucas]

i know the answer is always 'but dale is so far away for me, and i dont care enough about this to take a mission to go meet him'

to that i answer. find a local representative of whos opinion you can trust in these matters.

[IronFist]

at least on here we are all martial artists ( one would assume..i suppose some of us might be 50 year old women...) so for dales case in particular how many times has he been questioned then responded with. come see for yourself, 'my door is always open' dale has no idea how big the questioner is, how much training he has, nor how mentally stable they are, yet he still invites them to his place to test them himselves.

to me that is 'putting your money where your mouth is' and very few people leave that open option to come test them to all who want to.

no way in hell i would invite strangers on the internet to come test me out. im not THAT crazy...apparently dale is.

First of all I'm sure if anyone showed up it would be friendly anyway because what sort of dbag actually wants to beat up someone they had an argument with online?

Not to mention the fact that you never know who is crazy or a sore loser or whatever. I certainly wouldn't trust anyone challenging me online. This goes both ways: Dale should be just as cautious as the person who comes to challenge him. If I have learned anything over the years it's that people are nuts and martial arts seems to attract a fair amount of crazies, as well.

And like you said, he's probably far away from most people. But someone not wanting to take PTO, buy a ticket or gas, and spend time making the journey isn't proof of skills, it just means people have busy lives.

Prove yourself in an arena that matters. Even if you can beat up forum dudes that doesn't mean you have mad skillz. Want to demo iron body? Let a big, trained fighter hit you. Hold a demo and pay people $1 each to hit you. I assure you big strong guys will line up for the chance. Want to do the sledgehammer to the stomach trick and blame it on qi? Do it blindfolded and relaxed rather than flexing every muscle in your body and stopping it with muscle tension. Strongmen can do that same trick without qi. Want to claim you are a bad ass fighter? Defeat other badass fighters. There are tons of organizations that I'm sure would love to have a TMA guy fighting, and if you consistently won I'm sure you would have more students, publicity, and fame than you would know what to do with. There are probably more people interested in TMA who would love to learn from a fighter who can win against resisting opponents than there are MMA students total in every MMA gym in the country.

I don't know how many people on this forum are bad ass fighters; probably not very many. Therefore beating them up wouldn't prove anything.

The person making the claim needs to provide the proof.

Challenging forum members is not providing proof.

Winning against forum members is not providing proof. In fact, challenging forum members serves no purpose because if you win it doesn't prove anything and if you lose then you just publicly ate it after so much crap talking.

Winning against other skilled fighters is proof (of fighting skill).

Taking a sledge hammer to the stomach while relaxed and blindfolded is proof (of qi protection rather than muscle tension).

Taking strikes from trained fighters who are close to your weight is proof (of iron body or whatever).


i know the answer is always 'but dale is so far away for me, and i dont care enough about this to take a mission to go meet him'

to that i answer. find a local representative of whos opinion you can trust in these matters.

It's not up to any of us to test any of this. The burden of proof is on the person making the claim.

If I claim my bullet proof vest stops bullets but only test it with Nerf guns, it's not up to you or anyone else to find someone with a real gun to come shoot me. It's up to me to substantiate my own claim, in the proper arena (gun range, military testing, etc.) and until that point no one should believe me because I have not yet provided proof of my claims.

[Lucas]

first of all i'm sure if anyone showed up it would be friendly anyway because what sort of dbag actually wants to beat up someone they had an argument with online?



oh mememmememem!!!

:d

[Lucas]

i get what ur saying tho mang

[RWilson]

Why doesn't anyone understand that the onus of proof is on the person who makes the claim?

Kung fu logic:
- dude makes a claim about qigong or whatever
- 50 year old skeptic woman questions him
- dude challenges woman to post her real name and fight him. If she cannot defeat him in a fight she is obviously wrong and he is obviously right


Real logic
- dude makes a claim about qigong or whatever
- 50 year old skeptic woman questions him
- dude making the claim provides the proof, for example, by using his skill against trained fighters of a similar size, not by challenging the 50 year old woman


This reminds of schoolyard bullies who are like "I'm right because I'm bigger than you" http://smiliesftw.com/x/laugh.gif (http://smiliesftw.com)

That actually explains a lot about why TCMA is the way it is, though :o

But really, would beating up a 50 year old woman impress people? Do you think people would accept that as proof of your skills? Actually, don't answer that, because sadly I think a lot of morons might.

Logic is the enemy of charlatans and snakeoil salesmen so they will attempt to use social agreement to win over the masses (for example, like what you see at timeshare sales pitches), or by saying things like "some people will never believe anything." That's actually false; we'll believe it when we see conclusive proof.

Otherwise, it's like saying you invented a bullet proof vest and it stops bullets, but you've only demoed it against Nerf guns. But it really does stop bullets and anyone who doesn't believe you is just a fool hiding behind the internet and a coward :D

Nevermind the fact that all you have to do is show that it can stop a bullet from a real gun. That's it. Piece of cake if it really works.


How did you know I was a 50 year old sexy woman? What give it away.

You make a good argument. People here will tear it apart though stating that Dale never said he could use his iron palm/body in a fight. The only issue with that rebuttal is that he never stated he cannot fight. His tone is always that he can use his magic on a resisting opponent.

[Lucas]

How did you know I was a 50 year old sexy woman? What give it away.

You make a good argument. People here will tear it apart though stating that Dale never said he could use his iron palm/body in a fight. The only issue with that rebuttal is that he never stated he cannot fight. His tone is always that he can use his magic on a resisting opponent.

who said anything about sexy?

[goju]

I think you give Dave way too much credit. lol

He was trying to generate business for his club mostly and did so through often diminishing others with an all too often acerbic and acidic character. Intentionally or unintentionally, he is definitely not the voice of inspired change.

You ain't gonna open any eyes with Dave's attitude. Too much vinegar. :p

I agree he seem to have good knowledge particularly in regards to the historical aspect of martial arts but good god was he a gigantic wanker who was full of himself. and the latter behavior often clouded over his good posts.

[MightyB]

I agree he seem to have good knowledge particularly in regards to the historical aspect of martial arts but good god was he a gigantic wanker who was full of himself. and the latter behavior often clouded over his good posts.

We don't use the word wanker enough on this forum. I like it, it's like bringing back the word wuss or wussy.

[Lucas]

i agree wanker is a great word. you frakin wanker

[Mike Patterson]

I'm quite sure this wil be received poorly, but what the hell, I had a few minutes between sessions. :p

Iron fist is right. (I know, who knew I would agree with him?) :)

Problem is.. it's never enough. No matter what you do, someone is always left unsatisfied and wanting more.

In the 70's, I fought and won full contact events in Asia. My weight class spanned 154 to 184 lbs. I was near the bottom. Most of my opponents were older and near the top. I still won. But see, that doesn't count because there is no VIDEO.

In the 80's, I trained teams to compete in the Kuoshu in Taiwan. We produced 12 champions in '81 and '82. But when the internet was born in the 90's, people still said that Xingyi could not be used for competitive fighting. I said, but what about those twelve champions in the early 80's? They said; well, that was then.

So in the 90's, we re-entered the kuoshu. I trained and produced 25 champions from '94 to 2000. They called it an anomaly (and still do).

If you beat someone and post the vid, they say "he wasn't good enough" or "he was outclassed" or "you didn't really go all that hard" or any number of other statements.

So I figure that it is never enough. I think Dale figures much the same thing. So he invites, not challenges, invites people to come and see for themselves.

I do much the same. And have always been accused of "challenging" when I invite.

The internet is a funny place. It allows people to have a voice on issues that, prior to the internet, they would have never had a voice at all. They are not on the net so much to learn and/or discuss. They have other agendas.

When you are public, like Dale, you are an easy target for those who hide behind the mask. I think Dale, like me, sometimes simply gets tired of the masked sniping.

My teacher, when I was young and still full of fire, told me one afternoon; "You must practice big stomach, endure. You try fix everybody, you be very busy boy, never accomplish anything." He's right. And I do try to exercise that. But at times, it's really very hard to ignore such blatant ignorance.

I empathize with Dale. ;)

[mickey]

David Jamieson,

Would you please curtail the "spade" talk? You're pushing buttons, man. You're really pushing buttons!!!!:)


mickey

[bawang]

Actually, Dave left when he realized that all he had been doing was a huge waste of time.
That trying to open the eyes of TCMA that WANT to keep them closed is pointless and that, to him, the purpose of this forum had been lost.

mighty david ross (peace be upon him) is too badass for this forum

[RWilson]

mighty david ross (peace be upon him) is too badass for this forum

He is too bad...at kung foo...not badasss at all.

[RWilson]

LOL. That video has been posted about 150 times on the Underground. You didn't 'remind' him of anything.

You mad?

So post it then if it is not a big deal. :)

[taai gihk yahn]

I have nothing to hide about my past here. I am the guy who scared Dave Ross away from the board by reminding him that there was a video of his one San da fight still out there somewhere.
no
Dave left on his own, it was subsequent to an interaction w an idiot other than urself albeit one making similar noises; u had nothing to do with it;
also, Dave has never tried to hide from the existence of the video; he has always been very direct about both how he got taken out that day (part of the reason being was that he was a last minute substitute for the guy who was supposed to fight, and had not been training - of course, dumb idea to get into the ring under those circumstances, but that's what happened); in fact, has remarked on numerous occasions that, in general, he was a "B fighter at best"; he doesn't promote himself as a fighter, because he has no evidence to support that; he promotes himself as a coach, because he has a respectable number of successful fighters that he has trained;
while I am the first to agree that Dave is acerbic, confrontational and abrasive, u can't say he hasn't been forthright about his background and capacity; he also never hid behind an anonymous screen name, which says something IMPO



He was trying to generate business for his club
no
Dave never got nor actually ever really tried to get any business from here; the vast majority of business Dave gets is so far removed from the population of this forum u can't imagine; the majority (>90%) of his business is NY'ers looking for an intense and interesting workout (read: people with jobs and $ to spend); for Dave to invest any time here for the purposes of finding clients is ludicrous;


Actually, Dave left when he realized that all he had been doing was a huge waste of time.
yes
and his latest blog post might give u sum idea of why that is the case:
http://nysanda.blog.com/2012/07/06/wtf-is-kung-fu-anyway/

[taai gihk yahn]

So post it then if it is not a big deal. :)

why? we all know what happens - Dave gets KO'd pretty much from the get go;

just because u lost ur copy and now don't have anything to wank off to now, why shud MK have to go find one for u?

[RWilson]

why? we all know what happens - Dave gets KO'd pretty much from the get go;

just because u lost ur copy and now don't have anything to wank off to now, why shud MK have to go find one for u?

It is pretty embarrassing that Chan Tai Sans star student trained and fought like the people Dave Ross makes fun of. Flowery forms and getting knocked out in the ring describes modern day kung foo as well as Kung foo back then.

That video is an embarrassment to your whole lineage. Good thing he trained with the so called "killer of Japanese soldiers". His old rants are proof positive that his time in tcma was a waste but he keeps the facade up to make himself seem more legit. "I am not just some fat guy with a high squeaky voice who does not know anything outside of forms!". That, the truth, would sound horrible.

This sounds better. "I trained with the greatest tcmaist ever who killed Japanese soldiers and I was his senior student".

[Hebrew Hammer]

rwilson, if you open your mouth and insult mighty david ross again (peace be upon him) it is a direct insult to me.

and i do not take insults lightly.

*rubs testicles

You forgot to add the word 'cracker'...two demirits.

[taai gihk yahn]

It is pretty embarrassing that Chan Tai Sans star student trained and fought like the people Dave Ross makes fun of. Flowery forms and getting knocked out in the ring describes modern day kung foo as well as Kung foo back then.

That video is an embarrassment to your whole lineage. Good thing he trained with the so called "killer of Japanese soldiers". His old rants are proof positive that his time in tcma was a waste but he keeps the facade up to make himself seem more legit. "I am not just some fat guy with a high squeaky voice who does not know anything outside of forms!". That, the truth, would sound horrible.

This sounds better. "I trained with the greatest tcmaist ever who killed Japanese soldiers and I was his senior student".

u really need to get up to date: that video was close to 20 yrs ago, and u r acting like it's some sort of recent revelation that Dave is trying to sweep under the rug; Dave will b the first to admit that back then his whole perspective was skewed, and that is why he went outside of TCMA to further his training; his old rants are just what they are - old; you may not like his personality, that's fine, he irritated the heck out of most of us at one point or another; but u keep trying to set up this straw man where he is trying to cover up something or other, when in fact, he's pretty direct about both his accomplishments and his failings; so what do you want? why do you even care at this point? get over it already...

it's amazing - people jump on him when he "abandons" his roots and they jump on him when gives credit to them; I think you guys just need him to be a certain way, but inconveniently for you, he doesn't really fit the mold you want; again, what is your point here? you don't like Dave? fine, you don't like him; you take issue w what he argues? great, provide a reasoned counter-argument (fat and high-pitched voice don't really cut it in that regard)

again, what is it that you want?

[RWilson]

u really need to get up to date: that video was close to 20 yrs ago, and u r acting like it's some sort of recent revelation that Dave is trying to sweep under the rug; Dave will b the first to admit that back then his whole perspective was skewed, and that is why he went outside of TCMA to further his training; his old rants are just what they are - old; you may not like his personality, that's fine, he irritated the heck out of most of us at one point or another; but u keep trying to set up this straw man where he is trying to cover up something or other, when in fact, he's pretty direct about both his accomplishments and his failings; so what do you want? why do you even care at this point? get over it already...

it's amazing - people jump on him when he "abandons" his roots and they jump on him when gives credit to them; I think you guys just need him to be a certain way, but inconveniently for you, he doesn't really fit the mold you want; again, what is your point here? you don't like Dave? fine, you don't like him; you take issue w what he argues? great, provide a reasoned counter-argument (fat and high-pitched voice don't really cut it in that regard)

again, what is it that you want?

Whay annoys me about him is that he makes fun of tcma who've I agree with 100%. He is right. But then he babbles on and on about what Chan Tai San had in terms of skill/knowledge over most other tcma teachers. He talks about how amazon he was. But then you see the video of Sifu Chan, the great combatant, demoing form like every other tcma larger accept he was "deadly" while in China.

You cannot have it both ways. Either tcma is gsrbage including all the flowery forms you guys learned or it is not. You cannot denigrate tcma, then talk about how great Sifu chan was as a fighter/teacher, and then have ONE fight where you get knocked out in 3 seconds.

Most of the fighters at Dave's gym do not get trained by him. They get trained by real coaches and use his space. He does not tell anyone that either.

[mickey]

Greetings,

I have never seen the video. Where can I find it?

mickey

[RWilson]

Mike Patterson came back on these boards right after Dave posted videos of his fighters in the kuoshu. Initially Dave was making fun of the videos saying that they were not doing anything special from regular kickboxers. Then Mike came on and Dave went into buttkiss mode and stopped making fun of the videos. "Shifu Patterson, I am so glad you are here. Can I wash your feet for you?". What a larper. Form fairies(Dave) are as bad as qi huggers. Yes, why doesn't someone post the video of this famed match? So what if it happened 20 years ago? Dave freely posts that "death match" between chan hok fu and that tai chi guy. If he can make fun of that video from so long ago(it is on his blog) then we should be able to see his video as a comparison.

Mike, I am not making fun of your kuoshu videos so you can relax.

[I Hate Ashida Kim]

Most of the fighters at Dave's gym do not get trained by him. They get trained by real coaches and use his space. He does not tell anyone that either.

Awww snaps.


Mike Patterson came back on these boards right after Dave posted videos of his fighters in the kuoshu. Initially Dave was making fun of the videos saying that they were not doing anything special from regular kickboxers. Then Mike came on and Dave went into buttkiss mode and stopped making fun of the videos. "Shifu Patterson, I am so glad you are here. Can I wash your feet for you?". What a larper. Form fairies(Dave) are as bad as qi huggers. Yes, why doesn't someone post the video of this famed match? So what if it happened 20 years ago? Dave freely posts that "death match" between chan hok fu and that tai chi guy. If he can make fun of that video from so long ago(it is on his blog) then we should be able to see his video as a comparison.

Mike, I am not making fun of your kuoshu videos so you can relax.

I've noticed a lot of people butt kiss Mike Patterson on this forum.


I've never seen the video in question. From the discussion it sounds like:

- Dave was at some event and was asked to fill in for a fighter who wasn't able to compete
- Dave wasn't currently training for a fight so he was probably out-conditioned by the opponent
- Dave agreed to fight
- Dave got KO'ed in 3 seconds

Is that right?

Was it an MMA event? Did Dave fight with TCMA and lose?

I don't understand why people would make fun of that unless Dave started making tons of excuses or saying he was too deadly for the ring afterwards or something.

[bawang]

Awww snaps.



I've noticed a lot of people butt kiss Mike Patterson on this forum.




mike patterson can suck on my nuts.

[Lucas]

yes
and his latest blog post might give u sum idea of why that is the case:
http://nysanda.blog.com/2012/07/06/wtf-is-kung-fu-anyway/

Honestly I think this rant is getting stale. Its nothing we haven't heard before. Times have changed in the last five years from what I've noticed. If we are strictly speaking video proof (the ultimate internet evidence) there is a good deal of solid cma in the ring now days. From Sanda to mma. Its only going to grow from here on out.

[MightyB]

Honestly I think this rant is getting stale.

You'd think.


----


This rant is like a protestant walking into a Catholic Church and calling all the parishioners stupid.

[MightyB]

Here's a perfectly good solution for y'all. Rather than trying to turn TCMA into MMA, just join a MMA gym. :eek:

An answer to Dave's blog about no video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=eIc5NIfrnJs#!) of TCMA in action. Now watch everyone post about how that's not TCMA, or the big wrestler isn't shooting or whatever other hogwash they need to maintain their fantasies about how TCMA is soooo inferior to everything else.

[JamesC]

So...

Chuck Norris.

[Hebrew Hammer]

Awww snaps.

I've noticed a lot of people butt kiss Mike Patterson on this forum.


It's called respect Grasshopper...not enough people on the internets know what that is. Maybe you'll meet Sifu Patterson one day and judge for yourself.


mike patterson can suck on my nuts.

I've had your nuts, frankly their shriveled like Raisinettes and a bit on the salty side.

[ginosifu]

Sweet, I am a northern Shaolin guy.... I'll have to get those.

ginosifu

[taai gihk yahn]

So...

Chuck Norris.

and...




step!

[Tao Of The Fist]

It's called respect Grasshopper...not enough people on the internets know what that is. Maybe you'll meet Sifu Patterson one day and judge for yourself.



I've had your nuts, frankly their shriveled like Raisinettes and a bit on the salty side.

Hahaha we sell those at my work!! Chili Cheese are the best. Frankly they're just like Corn Nuts, no difference.

[Brule]

and...




step!

I gotta find that video again, thanks for reminding me.

step!!

[bawang]

I gotta find that video again, thanks for reminding me.

step!!

every time i see that video, it makes my penus shrink into my body.

[MasterKiller]

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-J_knEQRhxpE/T-Tr6UHWB2I/AAAAAAAAIpw/k0DY79rp_ro/w497-h373/PlayingWithFire.gif

[RWilson]

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-J_knEQRhxpE/T-Tr6UHWB2I/AAAAAAAAIpw/k0DY79rp_ro/w497-h373/PlayingWithFire.gif

That video is just like Dave's san da clip. The other guy must have used a dragon ball z type attack to knock him out so quickly.

[SimonM]

You know, I don't think I've ever seen somebody devote so much effort to bad-mouthing a guy who isn't even on the forum where the bad-mouthing is occurring. Did Dave **** in your cheerios or what? I mean, seriously, he's not here, he probably won't even ever know you were griefing about him. What's the point?

[sanjuro_ronin]

You know, I don't think I've ever seen somebody devote so much effort to bad-mouthing a guy who isn't even on the forum where the bad-mouthing is occurring. Did Dave **** in your cheerios or what? I mean, seriously, he's not here, he probably won't even ever know you were griefing about him. What's the point?

One does protest too much...

[David Jamieson]

One does protest too much...

Indeed, let's watch a little while longer.
Then confab.
:p

[taai gihk yahn]

One does protest too much...

indeed...

http://i.neoseeker.com/mgv/20291-Dynamite/291/115/103469d1316030180deadhorsetestdead_horse_display.g if

[Brule]

I think the obligatory waiting period is over when it comes to re-hashing the same dead horse, so, for the sake of discussion, please continue :p

[MightyB]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_O3jjEyWqYX0/TS-97kGTcuI/AAAAAAAAADs/YnJnuwM1Gr4/s1600/aliens2.jpg

..........

[SimonM]

Suddenly I feel like I'm the punchline to a joke I don't get. Please keep in mind that I was on one of my extended hiatuses recently. Even the fact that Dave was gone was news to me until about a week ago.

Carry on. ;)

[MightyB]

Suddenly I feel like I'm the punchline to a joke I don't get. Please keep in mind that I was on one of my extended hiatuses recently. Even the fact that Dave was gone was news to me until about a week ago.

Carry on. ;)

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-dm5Hb8SiBmI/Tz7cDWYUv2I/AAAAAAAAD7Q/7g_z5R8DvII/s1600/Giorgio_Tsoukalos.jpg
..........

[Lucas]

I am an alien. There, I've admited it to the world.

[SimonM]

http://chzmemebase.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/internet-memes-need-a-sassy-gif.gif
.................

[Lucas]

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.comicsalliance.com/media/2010/03/customize_predator.jpg

[MightyB]

http://electrokami.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/paul-the-movie-about-the-alien-with-seth-rogen.jpg
..........

[MightyB]

https://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/559099_419668424751431_608391310_n.jpg
..........

[Lucas]

like chocolate?

http://advanced.aviary.com/images/tutorials/Aliens/aliensfinal.jpg

[Frost]

Here's a perfectly good solution for y'all. Rather than trying to turn TCMA into MMA, just join a MMA gym. :eek:

An answer to Dave's blog about no video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=eIc5NIfrnJs#!) of TCMA in action. Now watch everyone post about how that's not TCMA, or the big wrestler isn't shooting or whatever other hogwash they need to maintain their fantasies about how TCMA is soooo inferior to everything else.

any clips of them..like actually fighting...just asking :D

[Lucas]

you can do your own research but there are lots. there are a lot of fighters using cma in san shou. look up art of war, look at the fighters profiles, find the guys listing a form of cma as primary style and then look up their fights.

look up yao hung gong, one of the posters here put up one of his fights at some point.

if you...like actually look... its not hard to find.

[David Jamieson]

ok, that's enough dave bashing. he's not here, so we drop it at that.

RWilson, you got clips of your amazing fight abilities that you want to share and have us criticize?

[Dale Dugas]

LMAO

of course RW will have no videos.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

When do the cowardly mouthboxers EVER step up?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[MightyB]

ok, that's enough dave bashing. he's not here, so we drop it at that.


http://images.icanhascheezburger.com/completestore/2009/4/2/128832073326294467.jpg
..........

[wenshu]

I propose that a subdomain be established with a troll only version of the forum.

The main forum can start off with two threads: "Trolling David Ross" and "Trolling Dale Dugas". That's about 90% of the traffic right there. Maybe add a subheading, "Advanced Topics in Mouth Boxing".

The Training subforum can be called "Talking About Training Without Actually Working Out" and the TaiJi/Internal arts forum doesn't even need threads, just display a bunch of random posts with vague references to internal power and circuitously fallacious rhetoric about not knowing what internal power is until you've felt it and even if you felt it you wouldn't recognize it; I know because I have never not recognized myself not never knowing what internal power is.

Ihatekungfusomuchihangoutonakungfuforumallday.ezin e.kungfumagazine.com

[RWilson]

LMAO

of course RW will have no videos.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

When do the cowardly mouthboxers EVER step up?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

A mouth boxer is someone who does not fight and just talks. That would make you a mouth boxer, Dale. A random video of you getting hit my children is not fighting skill. Welcome to the club, mouth boxer.

David,
I simply cannot find any videos of myself. I will put one up as soon as Dave puts up his san da fight. Even Dale's videos will look good compared to that.

I will not mention Dave again unless someone else brings him up.

[Hebrew Hammer]

http://images.icanhascheezburger.com/completestore/2009/4/2/128832073326294467.jpg
..........

That was perfect Mighty B, thanks for the morning laugh. What a great movie clip from Cheech and Chong.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljvxVQXMfTI

Off Topic: But another classic scene

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyrl1G6MUz0

[IronFist]

LMAO

of course RW will have no videos.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

When do the cowardly mouthboxers EVER step up?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Was RWilson claiming that he is an awesome fighter?

He doesn't have to prove anything if he hasn't made any claims.

Disregard this if I missed the post where he said he was an awesome fighter.

[Frost]

you can do your own research but there are lots. there are a lot of fighters using cma in san shou. look up art of war, look at the fighters profiles, find the guys listing a form of cma as primary style and then look up their fights.

look up yao hung gong, one of the posters here put up one of his fights at some point.

if you...like actually look... its not hard to find.

i was refering to that gentleman in the clip since it was put up as evidence of good kung fu in fighting :)

[Dale Dugas]

Was RWilson claiming that he is an awesome fighter?

He doesn't have to prove anything if he hasn't made any claims.

Disregard this if I missed the post where he said he was an awesome fighter.

A s shats who snipe at anyone while hiding are mouth-boxers. Rwilson is nothing but yet another coward who feels that this form of behavior if acceptable.

You want to critique then man up and be known. If you are a net ghost who talks smack about ANYONE or ANYTHING, you are nothing but a mouth-boxer.

So the person who is known publicly, has open door policies and goes out of their way to make it known exactly who and what they are, can be called mouthboxers while cowardly p u s s i e s who do none of that are exempt?

At least I am not some sackless/spineless dweeb who snipes at others. I have no problem telling anyone to their face how I feel. Why is it, that others seem to never want to do this?

Oh yeah, then they would taken to task for it and they would be asked to put their money where their festering piehole is.

At least I can walk with my head held high knowing I am not hiding in the mouthboxer closet like so many others on the internet

[Lucas]

i was refering to that gentleman in the clip since it was put up as evidence of good kung fu in fighting :)

oh...well... touche :(

[MightyB]

i was refering to that gentleman in the clip since it was put up as evidence of good kung fu in fighting :)

The request was for good TCMA in action. We should address something here. I love Judo almost as much as TCMA - but I would be hard pressed to show "Judo" in fighting even though it's accepted as a combat sport.

Maybe half of you will understand this concept and understand why I chose a clip of a respected Tai Chi stylist using his Tai Chi to throw a big uncooperative opponent around.

[sanjuro_ronin]

People may not like Dale's attitude or approach but the man doesn't hide anything, his door is always open and if you approach him in a friendly manner, that is what you get in return.
Dale says what he means and means what he says.
People ask for proof that TCMA work and Dale replies with, "if you are even in the area, come by and I will show you".
How is that a bad thing ?
Sheesh guys, it's DALE, its not like he's some psycho that no one knows and we don;'t even know what he looks like, Gene and others have met the man, he posts everything about himself.
Not sure what your problems are, really and I am beginning to thing that maybe Dale is right and you all are a bunch of ***** women with sand in their vagina.

[Frost]

The request was for good TCMA in action. We should address something here. I love Judo almost as much as TCMA - but I would be hard pressed to show "Judo" in fighting even though it's accepted as a combat sport.

Maybe half of you will understand this concept and understand why I chose a clip of a respected Tai Chi stylist using his Tai Chi to throw a big uncooperative opponent around.

uncooperative opponent, really, did you see him looking to pummel, to establish superior position, to level change, arm drag, collar tie..anything at all other than grab the arms and push in a bit?

demos are just that, just demos yes he looked good, can he do it against an opponent resisting him and attacking him back? i dont know probably but would be nice to see him against someone fighting back yes?

[MightyB]

People may not like Dale's attitude or approach but the man doesn't hide anything, his door is always open and if you approach him in a friendly manner, that is what you get in return.
Dale says what he means and means what he says.
People ask for proof that TCMA work and Dale replies with, "if you are even in the area, come by and I will show you".
How is that a bad thing ?
Sheesh guys, it's DALE, its not like he's some psycho that no one knows and we don;'t even know what he looks like, Gene and others have met the man, he posts everything about himself.
Not sure what your problems are, really and I am beginning to thing that maybe Dale is right and you all are a bunch of ***** women with sand in their vagina.

I'd drink a beer with the guy. Here's to you Dale -

https://untappd.s3.amazonaws.com/photo/2012_07_07/b3125dd501132c2a48b6793636a344ad_320x320.jpg

[MightyB]

uncooperative opponent, really, did you see him looking to pummel, to establish superior position, to level change, arm drag, collar tie..anything at all other than grab the arms and push in a bit?

demos are just that, just demos yes he looked good, can he do it against an opponent resisting him and attacking him back? i dont know probably but would be nice to see him against someone fighting back yes?

It is what it is - what about TKD? What about Sambo? What about wrestling? What about Shuai Jiao?

The point is that they all have something of value and with the exception of Sambo - none of them look like what you see in a MMA ring.

[Frost]

It is what it is - what about TKD? What about Sambo? What about wrestling? What about Shuai Jiao?

The point is that they all have something of value and with the exception of Sambo - none of them look like what you see in a MMA ring.

i can say hey neil adams is a great judo fighter, here is a clip of him demoing an arm bar, but i can also say here is a clip of him winning a judo comp, is it fighting no, but within context its him competing in his discipline so we can say he is good in that art.
What you posted was not a competition it was a semi compliant demo, show the guy in a pushing hands comp and ill say hey he has grappling skills, but i still wont say he is a proven fighter because he is not fighting nor has he produced any full contact fighters

plenty of judo guys have gone into MMA and used their skills, i can show for example jimmy wallhead in judo competition, he was a former british under 19 and european junior judo champ, and i can then show him in MMA pro fights and grappling comps, his judo is clear to see in his take down defence and throws

[sanjuro_ronin]

Pac man anyone?
http://www.shinyshiny.tv/pacman_lingerie-thumb-440x534.jpg

[bawang]

the one on the left is better looking, but her vagine must be very wide like a cave.

[MasterKiller]

Was RWilson claiming that he is an awesome fighter?

He doesn't have to prove anything if he hasn't made any claims.

Disregard this if I missed the post where he said he was an awesome fighter.

You got a bloody nose from a 15 year old. STFU.

[MightyB]

i can say hey neil adams is a great judo fighter, here is a clip of him demoing an arm bar, but i can also say here is a clip of him winning a judo comp, is it fighting no, but within context its him competing in his discipline so we can say he is good in that art.
What you posted was not a competition it was a semi compliant demo, show the guy in a pushing hands comp and ill say hey he has grappling skills, but i still wont say he is a proven fighter because he is not fighting nor has he produced any full contact fighters

plenty of judo guys have gone into MMA and used their skills, i can show for example jimmy wallhead in judo competition, he was a former british under 19 and european junior judo champ, and i can then show him in MMA pro fights and grappling comps, his judo is clear to see in his take down defence and throws

Basically we're agreeing - and there was a video of Chen Village push wrestling that looked pretty much like a shuai Jiao competition but it's since been buried in search engine h3ll.

My point is that the MMA deferred argument doesn't hold merit in the context of this forum. Is TCMA useful? Yes. Are there clips of TCMA in action? Yes.
....

We could go on to a philosophical debate just on Judo and MMA. People like to say it's used in MMA, I like to say aspects of Judo are used in MMA... same as aspects of BJJ or aspects of Thai Boxing etc. Look at Karo - that's hayastan grappling more than it's Judo. Anyway - Judo as how it's taught... depends on how and what is Judo - we could talk about the Gi or no gi, and look at cranks and crushes and then debate the newaza and strikes and go on to what is and isn't judo and this could last for days with both sides of the argument having merit. But in the end - can you say it's a pure form of Judo?

Then why do we hold TCMA to such a higher standard than other martial arts? Why does it have to be the answer to everything? It doesn't and isn't. It's good and answers a lot of questions and is useful in many circumstances that an average everyday person will face. And it's developing a combat sport side.

[MasterKiller]

The request was for good TCMA in action. We should address something here. I love Judo almost as much as TCMA - but I would be hard pressed to show "Judo" in fighting even though it's accepted as a combat sport.

There are sh1t tons of Judo examples in MMA. Ronda Rousey, for example.

[MightyB]

Pac man anyone?
http://www.shinyshiny.tv/pacman_lingerie-thumb-440x534.jpg

I'd like to chomp on that ghost.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Basically we're agreeing - and there was a video of Chen Village push wrestling that looked pretty much like a shuai Jiao competition but it's since been buried in search engine h3ll.

My point is that the MMA deferred argument doesn't hold merit in the context of this forum. Is TCMA useful? Yes. Are there clips of TCMA in action? Yes.
....

We could go on to a philosophical debate just on Judo and MMA. People like to say it's used in MMA, I like to say aspects of Judo are used in MMA... same as aspects of BJJ or aspects of Thai Boxing etc. Look at Karo - that's hayastan grappling more than it's Judo. Anyway - Judo as how it's taught... depends on how and what is Judo - we could talk about the Gi or no gi, and look at cranks and crushes and then debate the newaza and strikes and go on to what is and isn't judo and this could last for days with both sides of the argument having merit. But in the end - can you say it's a pure form of Judo?

Then why do we hold TCMA to such a higher standard than other martial arts? Why does it have to be the answer to everything? It doesn't and isn't. It's good and answers a lot of questions and is useful in many circumstances that an average everyday person will face. And it's developing a combat sport side.

Nah, not higher standard, same one really.
Just be nice to see MORE TCMA actually fighting and here is an example of a demo of Uechi-ryu and its a demo that shows everything about uechi-ryu AND even has freestyle fighting ( not full contact mind you, but free style never the less):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCliek3Oqy4&feature=related

[MightyB]

There are sh1t tons of Judo examples in MMA. Ronda Rousey, for example.

No there really isn't. This is how I can defend my position. I can teach a person with no MA experience everything they need to be a black belt in Judo. I can even teach them how to win in Judo competition and have them compete on the mat regularly.

If I were to take them into a MMA ring with only the above Judo only experience... they may do OK - but my hunch is they'd get slaughtered if they were to face a person who only practiced MMA and competed in the same amount of events as the Judoka (the Judoka only doing Judo events and the MMA person only doing MMA events).

[MightyB]

Nah, not higher standard, same one really.
Just be nice to see MORE TCMA actually fighting and here is an example of a demo of Uechi-ryu and its a demo that shows everything about uechi-ryu AND even has freestyle fighting ( not full contact mind you, but free style never the less):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCliek3Oqy4&feature=related

I agree completely.

IMO I think that there's going to a progression towards the real in TCMA. Just look at the arguments on this forum and we're a lot of nobodys in the TCMA universe. But if we're having these conversations, then there's bound to be a lot of TCMA people out there having them too. I hate to use the "at one time" bit, but there's got to be a reason for the existence of TCMA - so there had to be great martial value. I don't like to say it's being rediscovered as much as it's being re-emphasized because the practitioners are questioning the martial value.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I agree completely.

IMO I think that there's going to a progression towards the real in TCMA. Just look at the arguments on this forum and we're a lot of nobodys in the TCMA universe. But if we're having these conversations, then there's bound to be a lot of TCMA people out there having them too. I hate to use the "at one time" bit, but there's got to be a reason for the existence of TCMA - so there had to be great martial value. I don't like to say it's being rediscovered as much as it's being re-emphasized because the practitioners are questioning the martial value.

I think there may be a very hard transition for many and that is because while everyone THINKS they fight, when they actually DO start, it is a rude awakening.
Not the getting hit mind you, that's the easy part to overcome.
Its the realization that the hard work you put in has NOT equipped you to fight with your MA vs an opponent that wants to take your head off and skull hump you.
And its the realization that to unlock the key to making your TCMA ( or any MA) work "for real" involved actually fighting MORE than anything else.

[MightyB]

I think there may be a very hard transition for many and that is because while everyone THINKS they fight, when they actually DO start, it is a rude awakening.
Not the getting hit mind you, that's the easy part to overcome.
Its the realization that the hard work you put in has NOT equipped you to fight with your MA vs an opponent that wants to take your head off and skull hump you.
And its the realization that to unlock the key to making your TCMA ( or any MA) work "for real" involved actually fighting MORE than anything else.

This is really a profound and killer statement that I hope people take to heart, "It's the realization that the hard work you put in has NOT equipped you to fight"

----

I don't have the answers - I'm going to my Judo club tonight and tomorrow night it's off to wrastle with the local MMA tough guys in their gym.

[MasterKiller]

No there really isn't. This is how I can defend my position. I can teach a person with no MA experience everything they need to be a black belt in Judo. I can even teach them how to win in Judo competition and have them compete on the mat regularly.

If I were to take them into a MMA ring with only the above Judo only experience... they may do OK - but my hunch is they'd get slaughtered if they were to face a person who only practiced MMA and competed in the same amount of events as the Judoka (the Judoka only doing Judo events and the MMA person only doing MMA events).

And...? That's called specificity.

Put a Kickboxer in a Judo match you get the same results.

But there is plenty of Judo in MMA, nonetheless.

[MightyB]

But there is plenty of Judo in MMA, nonetheless.

Yeah there is...
-----
Maybe somebody better equipped and more knowledgeable has the answers. In all honesty I can't even answer what style I'd use if I were to get in a real fight. Would it be Judo? Kung Fu? BJJ? Boxing? IDK... I try to f*** around in all of them with competent people because I really do enjoy the practice and the people.

[IronFist]

A s shats who snipe at anyone while hiding are mouth-boxers. Rwilson is nothing but yet another coward who feels that this form of behavior if acceptable.

You want to critique then man up and be known. If you are a net ghost who talks smack about ANYONE or ANYTHING, you are nothing but a mouth-boxer.

So the person who is known publicly, has open door policies and goes out of their way to make it known exactly who and what they are, can be called mouthboxers while cowardly p u s s i e s who do none of that are exempt?

At least I am not some sackless/spineless dweeb who snipes at others. I have no problem telling anyone to their face how I feel. Why is it, that others seem to never want to do this?

Oh yeah, then they would taken to task for it and they would be asked to put their money where their festering piehole is.

At least I can walk with my head held high knowing I am not hiding in the mouthboxer closet like so many others on the internet

You're still missing the point.

It only matters if other people are "sackless/spineless dweebs" if they are making claims themselves.

I'm not a very good singer, but I can tell you when professional singers miss notes. I don't have to be a better singer than them to be correct in identifying when they are sharp/flat.

If RWilson was talking about being a qigong master, breaking the bottom brick with qi (rather than with physics), catching bullets in his teeth, etc., but failing to show any proof, then sure, he's open to ridicule.

If RWilson is saying he's better than people at certain things but failing to show any proof, then sure, call him a "sackless/spineless dweeb."

Your "my door is always open" attitude is fine, but it doesn't prove anything you've said or disprove anything anyone else is saying.

If someone says they can do x, and they want other people to believe that they can do x, then it is up to them to demonstrate that they can do x.

[IronFist]

I think there may be a very hard transition for many and that is because while everyone THINKS they fight, when they actually DO start, it is a rude awakening.
Not the getting hit mind you, that's the easy part to overcome.
Its the realization that the hard work you put in has NOT equipped you to fight with your MA vs an opponent that wants to take your head off and skull hump you.
And its the realization that to unlock the key to making your TCMA ( or any MA) work "for real" involved actually fighting MORE than anything else.

Gonna quote and bold this again in agreement.

[David Jamieson]

The hard work you've put into what?

Essentially it's this. You don't know how to fight until you do. You don't know how you'll fight until you do. And it doesn't matter what you train in.

Humans are useless when it comes to violence anyway. Laughable really.

We chest pound and posture and talk a lot of shyte.

Weapons are superior. Superior weapons are better. Buy a gun and learn to use it.
Dumping on people who do one thing because they don't do it like another group is silly. All of them are doing the actual minimum thing you can do to protect yourself regardless of what that is. Be it karate, judo, kenpo, boxing, muay thai etc etc etc.

Gun beats it all. It's 2012. All martial arts that do not use gun are sport, hobby or cultural pastime. :)

[IronFist]

The hard work you've put into what?


The hard work you've put into learning forms and practicing your 10-hit combos to your training partner's punch that wasn't going to hit you anyway while he leaves his arm extended so you can do the counter, etc.

A lot of people have put a lot of hard work into things that aren't going to help them in a fight at all, yet were mislead to believe that they were.

[mjw]

as for the pad work and drills etc extend the time like from 3-5 minutes and work in there have your turn and do about 3 min so you can watch and do your exercises too.
You can do the pushups etc if people skip out thats on them

[RWilson]

LMAO

of course RW will have no videos.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

When do the cowardly mouthboxers EVER step up?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

You are the biggest mouthboxer here and then you ask for bannings when you start to lose.

Look, you have this fantasy open door policy. It is a fantasy because it is easy to have an open door instead of walking through doors. Open doors meant something back in the day when challenges actually happen. Challenges do not happen today do your open door policy is actually fake. It makes you think you are tough even though you have not walked through any doors.

What famous tcma have you beaten up that was not a midget? What competitions have you won? You talk about doing Chinese judo but have not used it in comoetition against wrestlers, Judo tourneys, etc. Want to know why I am stressing open competitions? Why mma "thugs" make fun of Kung foo for not competing? To shut big guys like you up. You walk circles with weighted vests, let children hit you to show "iron body", and you talk about being able to kick, punch, throw, and joint like in a fight. The only problem with your claims is that there is only video of you doing solo exercise. The other problem is how big are the people you are throwing? Are they your size? Probably not. Competitions have weight classes and you will not end up in the kids weight class(the weight class of the gus punching you in your vid) you will end up with guys your size. Being able to use ba gua sticky hand whatever against a skilled opponent of your size is real skill.

[RWilson]

The hard work you've put into learning forms and practicing your 10-hit combos to your training partner's punch that wasn't going to hit you anyway while he leaves his arm extended so you can do the counter, etc.

A lot of people have put a lot of hard work into things that aren't going to help them in a fight at all, yet were mislead to believe that they were.


My mom used to tell me to clean the dishes. This was to practice horse stance and hand sensitivity. Standing around for that long strengthens my back and legs for fighting. Having to balance dishes with water falling all over is a good way to learn to handle different energies, like chi Sao. This training will teach me to yield and then attack. That was the real reason she had me doing dishes to teach me how to fight without fighting.

Ironfist is right. The things Kung foo people do: forms, push hands, stance training, arm hanging technique drilling are given to students as tools to learn fighting. They are all done with the spin of "you are doing something ancient, tested, and useful".

It is not useful to fighting. Fighting is useful to fighting. Kung foo teachers do not say, "yeah, do this from slow and then try to uproot me. There is no rhyme or reason. Just do it for fun. It has not usefulness". You will never hear this because no one would be doing Kung foo.

[IronFist]

My mom used to tell me to clean the dishes. This was to practice horse stance and hand sensitivity. Standing around for that long strengthens my back and legs for fighting. Having to balance dishes with water falling all over is a good way to learn to handle different energies, like chi Sao. This training will teach me to yield and then attack. That was the real reason she had me doing dishes to teach me how to fight without fighting.

What is this, an old kung fu movie?


Ironfist is right. The things Kung foo people do: forms, push hands, stance training, arm hanging technique drilling are given to students as tools to learn fighting. They are all done with the spin of "you are doing something ancient, tested, and useful".

It is not useful to fighting. Fighting is useful to fighting. Kung foo teachers do not say, "yeah, do this from slow and then try to uproot me. There is no rhyme or reason. Just do it for fun. It has not usefulness". You will never hear this because no one would be doing Kung foo.

You were joking about doing dishes helping you become a better fighter, right?

[wenshu]

I guarantee you if that some ***** got it in her head to roll up on the knitting forums talking **** about how a Croknit was inferior to a Hairpin Lace but couldn't tell the difference between a Kitchener stitch and an I-cord, she'd get a size 11 square end Surina Wood Crocheting Needle right in her ****ing eyeball.

If Julius Irving was at Ford's theater the night Abraham Lincoln was assassinated who can bench press more while piloting the Starship Enterprise after an all night bender doing lines off of Kim Kardashian's ass with Kanye West? Mahmoud Ahmadinejad or Bobcat Goldwaithe?





Here's a graph I drew:

http://i.imgur.com/ANFIQ.png








/* rubs testicle








/*smells hand

[Frost]

Basically we're agreeing - and there was a video of Chen Village push wrestling that looked pretty much like a shuai Jiao competition but it's since been buried in search engine h3ll.

My point is that the MMA deferred argument doesn't hold merit in the context of this forum. Is TCMA useful? Yes. Are there clips of TCMA in action? Yes.
....

We could go on to a philosophical debate just on Judo and MMA. People like to say it's used in MMA, I like to say aspects of Judo are used in MMA... same as aspects of BJJ or aspects of Thai Boxing etc. Look at Karo - that's hayastan grappling more than it's Judo. Anyway - Judo as how it's taught... depends on how and what is Judo - we could talk about the Gi or no gi, and look at cranks and crushes and then debate the newaza and strikes and go on to what is and isn't judo and this could last for days with both sides of the argument having merit. But in the end - can you say it's a pure form of Judo?

Then why do we hold TCMA to such a higher standard than other martial arts? Why does it have to be the answer to everything? It doesn't and isn't. It's good and answers a lot of questions and is useful in many circumstances that an average everyday person will face. And it's developing a combat sport side.

umm you are over complicating this

You posted a clip of a guy doing a push hands demo as proof tcma works, i simply asked for a clip of him doing it against a resisting opponent fighting him ,if someone posted a clip of neil adams doing a judo demo and saying look this is proof judo works in a fight id ask for the same, if i wanted proof of mr adams skill in judo i would have asked for a clip of him competing, luckily those clips exist lol so we can judge his skill level in judo, cant really judge the chen guys skills because no one has posted clips of him in competition, and thats my problem with TCMA (well some of it) people are judged a lot of the time on how good they look in demos, against their students or on their lineage, not by their fighting skills, does that have to mean MMA, no but sparring / fighting of some sort would be nice

Now judo, sambo are both used regularly in MMA, is that all thats used by these fighters? of course not they also train a striking art and probably other grappling arts as well but their are countless examples of people with a strong judo background in MMA, the same simply cant be said for TCMA (as it is trained in most schools), ie their is some sanda in MMA, but where are the guys doing hun gar, wing chun, mantis, tai chi, bagua and so on?

And since MMA has been around for over 20 years in the main stream saying we are getting there but its going to take time is a bit silly

[Frost]

You are the biggest mouthboxer here and then you ask for bannings when you start to lose.

Look, you have this fantasy open door policy. It is a fantasy because it is easy to have an open door instead of walking through doors. Open doors meant something back in the day when challenges actually happen. Challenges do not happen today do your open door policy is actually fake. It makes you think you are tough even though you have not walked through any doors.

What famous tcma have you beaten up that was not a midget? What competitions have you won? You talk about doing Chinese judo but have not used it in comoetition against wrestlers, Judo tourneys, etc. Want to know why I am stressing open competitions? Why mma "thugs" make fun of Kung foo for not competing? To shut big guys like you up. You walk circles with weighted vests, let children hit you to show "iron body", and you talk about being able to kick, punch, throw, and joint like in a fight. The only problem with your claims is that there is only video of you doing solo exercise. The other problem is how big are the people you are throwing? Are they your size? Probably not. Competitions have weight classes and you will not end up in the kids weight class(the weight class of the gus punching you in your vid) you will end up with guys your size. Being able to use ba gua sticky hand whatever against a skilled opponent of your size is real skill.

As much as I don’t like some of Wilsons posts, he makes some very valid points in this one

[SimonM]

Here's a perfectly good solution for y'all. Rather than trying to turn TCMA into MMA, just join a MMA gym. :eek:

An answer to Dave's blog about no video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=eIc5NIfrnJs#!) of TCMA in action. Now watch everyone post about how that's not TCMA, or the big wrestler isn't shooting or whatever other hogwash they need to maintain their fantasies about how TCMA is soooo inferior to everything else.

Just going to pop in with my 2 cents a little late...

Looked like Taiji to me - and better executed than average. It was a drill, not a fight, but the opponent was resisting and that's been the bar a lot of people have set.

[David Jamieson]

I think Wenshu won this thread already guys....

[sanjuro_ronin]

As much as I don’t like some of Wilsons posts, he makes some very valid points in this one

Actually he doesn't because, if I recall, Dale has competed when he was younger ( I am not 100% sure on this) and the guys in that clip,while smaller than dale, are certainly NOT kids and may well be bigger than Wilson.
The only "valid" point he may have is that if Dale wants to prove his TCMA that he should go out and fight trained fighters BUT the only problem with that is that Dale isn't the one saying he WANTS to prove TCMA works, he is saying that IF anyone WANTS to see how HIS TCMA works, they can come see him and test him.

[Frost]

Actually I think he does, there are no competition clips from anyone from his lineage of bagua and wrestling as far as I can find so its not any different from any other TCMA lineage and the whole I will throw you on your head, we are too dangerous to spar unless you are an advanced student, and don’t go for submission but the break stuff coming out of the gompa is part of the whole we are too deadly thing that plagues TCMA, in this regard he is no better or worse than anyone
The only clip of dale is a demo of skills that might or might not be useful in a real fight with guys much bigger than him, most fighters and guys who have competed would take more notice if it was a real competition against people his own size actually trying to knock him out, as Wilson says
And saying come visit me sounds good but realistically who will bother doing this and what would it prove if say someone like Wilson did visit him? That dale can beat a smaller opponent? Saying people are no names if they don’t come visit him or don’t post their own names is a bit inflated if all the can post is a demo clip

[sanjuro_ronin]

Actually I think he does, there are no competition clips from anyone from his lineage of bagua and wrestling as far as I can find so its not any different from any other TCMA lineage and the whole I will throw you on your head, we are too dangerous to spar unless you are an advanced student, and don’t go for submission but the break stuff coming out of the gompa is part of the whole we are too deadly thing that plagues TCMA, in this regard he is no better or worse than anyone
The only clip of dale is a demo of skills that might or might not be useful in a real fight with guys much bigger than him, most fighters and guys who have competed would take more notice if it was a real competition against people his own size actually trying to knock him out, as Wilson says
And saying come visit me sounds good but realistically who will bother doing this and what would it prove if say someone like Wilson did visit him? That dale can beat a smaller opponent? Saying people are no names if they don’t come visit him or don’t post their own names is a bit inflated if all the can post is a demo clip

I disagree and the reason is this:
When Dale says my door is open he is NOT making a challenge, but accepting one from someone that has doubts about his MA training.
Sure, guys with big internet personas see what he says as " come find out and I will kick your ass" but that is their problem, not his.
You may not know this but Dale extended that very same invitstion to me when we were on Bullshido.
I asked him point blank if that meant a fight and he said that it was up to me.
If I wanted to test his IP I could bring the bricks or whatnot, if it was to test his IB I could hit him and he would NOT hit me.
Does that sound like a "bully" or "mouthboxer"?
I think we are seeing two different things because of preconceived notions * and how Dale likes to colourfully word his posts).
Mike Parella also had an open invitation for anyone to visit his dojo and test his TCMA, no one took him up on it either AND Mike made it very clear that it would NOT have to be a fight, but a test of MA skills.
And I want to make THIS clear for Dale ( If I may speak for you Dale) and that is that Dale is NOT issuing a challenge to fight anyone ( unless they want a sparring match) BUT what he is saying is quite simply this:
If you want prove that His IP and IB work, come to him and he will show you.

[ginosifu]

Actually I think he does, there are no competition clips from anyone from his lineage of bagua and wrestling as far as I can find so its not any different from any other TCMA lineage and the whole I will throw you on your head, we are too dangerous to spar unless you are an advanced student, and don’t go for submission but the break stuff coming out of the gompa is part of the whole we are too deadly thing that plagues TCMA, in this regard he is no better or worse than anyone
The only clip of dale is a demo of skills that might or might not be useful in a real fight with guys much bigger than him, most fighters and guys who have competed would take more notice if it was a real competition against people his own size actually trying to knock him out, as Wilson says
And saying come visit me sounds good but realistically who will bother doing this and what would it prove if say someone like Wilson did visit him? That dale can beat a smaller opponent? Saying people are no names if they don’t come visit him or don’t post their own names is a bit inflated if all the can post is a demo clip

While both sides make their points.... this proof with a video clip is the biggest pile of crap and the waste of our time here.

If someone makes a clip of themselves fighting in a competition.... you haters say that "How do we know his opponent has any true skill" or "It was staged.... " or "This proves nothing because he did not go up against a MMA fighter"

In reality.... If I was to post a clip of me fighting someone..... What does it really prove? That my style works? That my style does not work? What if I am physically / genetically a good fighter and do not possess any real MA skill? How do you know the person in my clip has any skill or is he just a Ringer? I did a cage / UFC style match here years ago..... Does MMA suck now because a Kung Fu guy beat him? How do we know that he was a bad fighter or maybe just a beginner?

In the end.... There are a lot of MA (Kung Fu, Karate, TKD etc etc) that talk big. If a MA has openly invited you to come and made it clear he will prove his style (whether he does good or not), then we must put up or shut up.

I have repeately told knifefighter to come to my school and challenge me in front of my students. I told him that he could challenge me in front of my students... and if he beat me I would be embarassed in front of my students and say he was a better fighter and that my style sucked. If I beat him he was to bow to me and call me Sifu....

In the end he said he would not travel to my area.... He said why don't you come here to me in California. To me, this is such a lame act is to ask a MA to come to his location so he could test my skill.

We are all MA here... show some respect. If you have a beef with someone... go to them, touch hands with them.... see if they are what they are yourself and quit your hiding behind a computer and be a man.

ginosifu

ps Frost: this is not aimed at you... just generalizing

[David Jamieson]

Haters are gonna hate.

It comes down to that.

To ask an electrician to pour concrete is foolish and is asked by fools.

Martial arts is a big world.
It runs the gamut of empty hand to nuclear weapons.

For some reason, there are people who think sport combat is the height of it.

That's baloney and always has been baloney.

Do what it is that you like to do. If you're going to be critical, be critical of your own lack of ability and not some supposition about people you don't know or haven't experienced what they do.

Lastly, know this, you don't know squat about hoo hah like any one else. The more you learn, the more you should realize how little you actually know and what little you can actually do.

If you are happy with wu shu practice, great! If you are happy with boxing, great! If you like wrestling, that is fantastic.

If you would like to share, also Terrific, but if you want to posture like a goon, you are no different than what you are criticizing. Out of hand criticism based on clips or 20 second observation is quite frankly worthless.

[sanjuro_ronin]

For some reason, there are people who think sport combat is the height of it.

I don't think that ANYONE thinks that sport combat is the height of ANY MA.
BUT if one wants to test their fighting skills, where else would one go?
In sport combat systems we find people that spend all their time training to fight (which we know is NOT the case in all TMA) and in sport combat we find trained fighters that will test and push our limits.
So, while sport fighting is NOT the height of MA, it is the height of testing fighting skills.

[jmd161]

I disagree and the reason is this:
When Dale says my door is open he is NOT making a challenge, but accepting one from someone that has doubts about his MA training.
Sure, guys with big internet personas see what he says as " come find out and I will kick your ass" but that is their problem, not his.
You may not know this but Dale extended that very same invitstion to me when we were on Bullshido.
I asked him point blank if that meant a fight and he said that it was up to me.
If I wanted to test his IP I could bring the bricks or whatnot, if it was to test his IB I could hit him and he would NOT hit me.
Does that sound like a "bully" or "mouthboxer"?
I think we are seeing two different things because of preconceived notions * and how Dale likes to colourfully word his posts).
Mike Parella also had an open invitation for anyone to visit his dojo and test his TCMA, no one took him up on it either AND Mike made it very clear that it would NOT have to be a fight, but a test of MA skills.
And I want to make THIS clear for Dale ( If I may speak for you Dale) and that is that Dale is NOT issuing a challenge to fight anyone ( unless they want a sparring match) BUT what he is saying is quite simply this:
If you want prove that His IP and IB work, come to him and he will show you.

+1 This!

I'm jumping in on the end here... so I'm not sure what's going on or went down. I don't claim to speak for Dale either but, I have talked to the man both on forum and off. Dale is a very cool down to earth guy who is willing to meet and train or show what he knows... He's not making a challange to anyone he's simply saying if you doubt what he says he can do... fine, come see him and he'll gladly show you in person. I've talked to Dale on several occasions when I worked in Boston and he was always friendly and willing to meet.

[yutyeesam]

So, while sport fighting is NOT the height of MA, it is the height of testing fighting skills.

In 1 on 1 fighting skills, yes.

I think it'd be cool to set up leagues of multiple attacker sport fighting. Start with 2, then build up.

A lot of (striking oriented) martial arts schools have their students spar (full resistance, not compliant randori drills) 2 opponents (sometimes 3) for their black belts, so people do train for it.

Don't know how to regulate something like that for sports, but I think it would be highly entertaining (and build up yet another combat attribute).

-123

[David Jamieson]

I don't think that ANYONE thinks that sport combat is the height of ANY MA.

really? You do come to this forum... You know that is true and there are all sorts of boneheads out there who throw up the shyte talk of this vs that and more often than not, it's meatheads who like to watch ppv mma who do this more than most.



BUT if one wants to test their fighting skills, where else would one go?
In sport combat systems we find people that spend all their time training to fight (which we know is NOT the case in all TMA) and in sport combat we find trained fighters that will test and push our limits.
So, while sport fighting is NOT the height of MA, it is the height of testing fighting skills.

If one wants to test their skill? in what? fighting? go fight? What if my skill is swordsmanship, should I need to run someone through to know I am developing balance and strength?

Do you think a fight is a test? It's not. In sport, it's sport. You are creating a falsehood here. People test their skill accordingly.

If you don't like someone bragging about their wu shu as a fighting art, don't listen to them. I don't listen to scientologists for the very same reason.

Bit from my viewpoint, it is incorrect, wrong and shortsighted to demand that everyone falls under the construct of sport for testing their art. In fact, I say it's nonsense. If I really wanna do someone in, I ain't gonna box em, I am going to do a whole lot worse.

If I wanna scrimmage it up with the kickboxing, I have an outlet for that. It comes down to to each their own.

If all someone has to offer is criticism, then that person can **** off in my opinion. I don't have time for blowhards who go on about the virtues of muay thai while criticism san da etc etc. There are a lot of big mouth blowhards like that all over the net and all over the clubs. Just can't leave it alone and gotta go mucking in other peoples stuff as if they are proving something meaningful. They aren't. they're wasting their own time and they certainly aren't teaching anyone anything from that context.

Dude, I could go to an mma club and watch white collar ninnies tippy tapping like they are testing their skills. that's nonsense. I can go to a kung fu club and see some hard core scrapping.

It's not a true thing at all. You can go to boxing gyms that train competitive fighters and watch some girls playing at tippy tap as well.

demanding that all martial artists be sport fighters etc is garbage thinking. It really is. Enjoy your practice for what it is. If you like what you are doing, then THAT is the crux of the biscuit.

If a meathead gets up in my face and I can't handle him physically, I switch to weapons and hurt him before he can hurt me. I've done it already. I've done the sport thing. Mostly it's just as goofy as a yellow bamboo club. 95% of the people in the club suck etc etc. Doesn't matter what club.

So that argument doesn't cut it at all. Fighters are fighters period whether they train or not.

[sanjuro_ronin]

If one wants to test their skill? in what? fighting? go fight? What if my skill is swordsmanship, should I need to run someone through to know I am developing balance and strength?

If your skill is swordsmanship you "fight" also, and, when there wasn't sport to fall back on like we have now, there were duels and there were contact sessions with wooden weapons that left many a practioner in serious pain.
That we have pussifed the arts does NOT take away from how they were done and fighting with them was a huge part of the arts.
Now we have sport and we can take sport as far as we choose in the spirit of friendly competition and skill testing and develop those very physical skills that we need for "real combat".


Do you think a fight is a test? It's not. In sport, it's sport. You are creating a falsehood here. People test their skill accordingly.

Having done BOTH I can assure that fighting a skilled fighter in the ring is far more challenging than beating on some punk in a night club or some idiot that THINKS he can fight but can barely punch.
I am surprised that you, who has also done both AND gotten your ass handed to you in the ring, like we ALL have, would say such a thing.

You test fighting skill by fighting and you do that by fighting the best possible opponents and that means those that train to fight and do so on a regular basis.
And you find them in sport combat systems.

[SimonM]

If your skill is swordsmanship you "fight" also, and, when there wasn't sport to fall back on like we have now, there were duels and there were contact sessions with wooden weapons that left many a practioner in serious pain.

Do you know how hard it is for me to find people willing to actually full-on spar with wood swords? It's irritating. Swords are my favorite part of MA - even more so than wrestling.

[JamesC]

How are you guys not tired yet? I don't get it.

[David Jamieson]

If your skill is swordsmanship you "fight" also, and, when there wasn't sport to fall back on like we have now, there were duels and there were contact sessions with wooden weapons that left many a practioner in serious pain.
That we have pussifed the arts does NOT take away from how they were done and fighting with them was a huge part of the arts.
Now we have sport and we can take sport as far as we choose in the spirit of friendly competition and skill testing and develop those very physical skills that we need for "real combat".



Having done BOTH I can assure that fighting a skilled fighter in the ring is far more challenging than beating on some punk in a night club or some idiot that THINKS he can fight but can barely punch.
I am surprised that you, who has also done both AND gotten your ass handed to you in the ring, like we ALL have, would say such a thing.

You test fighting skill by fighting and you do that by fighting the best possible opponents and that means those that train to fight and do so on a regular basis.
And you find them in sport combat systems.

Ring removes the reality factor of escalation tactics. It's a safe place and ultimately test sport ability as opposed to actual ability to make and do violence at escalated levels.

I've bagged and gassed a few guys too. They lose will when they get hurt. Nobody trains to not lose will when they get hurt. they train to get conditioned so that when they do get hurt, it's less so and they have trained to recover better. Hence escalation.

If my hammer isn't making a dent in the mountain, it's time for a bigger hammer. Sport cannot adequately address this reality.

The romans had the real deal. we do have watered down flaps and call that "combat" now. Mostly snarly faces, well tuned bodies and a few rounds with a little blood and minor concusions.

we are indeed, all of us, pussies in relation the old days. Nobody is threatened with death by gladius in a sport fight anymore and that hasn't been so for centuries.

so who the heck do we think we are? lol :p

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ring removes the reality factor of escalation tactics. It's a safe place and ultimately test sport ability as opposed to actual ability to make and do violence at escalated levels.

I've bagged and gassed a few guys too. They lose will when they get hurt. Nobody trains to not lose will when they get hurt. they train to get conditioned so that when they do get hurt, it's less so and they have trained to recover better. Hence escalation.

If my hammer isn't making a dent in the mountain, it's time for a bigger hammer. Sport cannot adequately address this reality.

The romans had the real deal. we do have watered down flaps and call that "combat" now. Mostly snarly faces, well tuned bodies and a few rounds with a little blood and minor concusions.

we are indeed, all of us, pussies in relation the old days. Nobody is threatened with death by gladius in a sport fight anymore and that hasn't been so for centuries.

so who the heck do we think we are? lol :p

No one will dispute that.
In the ring the violence is contained and control under a "facade" of "sportsmanship.
The rules even out the playing field for the "less talented" fighter.
Nevertheless, it is in the ring that you face another trained fighter, a guy that has put as much pain, sweat and tears as you have, maybe even more.
In the ring the other guy "knows" you, he knows you are there to fight and may even know how good (or bad) you are.
Any advantage you may have on the street, may not be there in the ring, making the test even more crucial and difficult.

The point is that, outside of actually figthing on a street fight ( IF you can find a quality opponent), the ring OR contact sparring with someone that is intent on beating your ass, is the only way to test your fighting skills.

Of course if a person couldn't care less about fighting there is no need.
They can just punch the air and live in their land of "milk and honey".
But for those that value fighting skill as part of their fighting system, sport combat offers the testing ground needed to develop the skills they require.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Do you know how hard it is for me to find people willing to actually full-on spar with wood swords? It's irritating. Swords are my favorite part of MA - even more so than wrestling.

Yep, I know.
Far and few between.
Now, ask yourself why.

[sanjuro_ronin]

How are you guys not tired yet? I don't get it.

Our chi is everlasting and we do NOT tire, we are not weak like woman !
:D

[SimonM]

Yep, I know.
Far and few between.
Now, ask yourself why.

Well, because it hurts. I've broken fingers.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well, because it hurts. I've broken fingers.

I remember the first time I got hit with a bokken, **** I never felt anything like it !
Been hit with rattan sticks and bamboo swords but nothing ever felt like that !
LMAO !
In training I say go padded BUT if doing a "competitive" test then the less the better.
The thing is that "stick fighting" is NOT sword fighting so when you replace the blade with the stick, you need to remember the context of what you are doing.
Getting whacked on the thigh with a stick hurts but won't stop you in the heat of the fight, BUT if it was a blade your leg would be a nice piece of bloody meat.
getting chopped on the wrist is NOT a point but a lost of the hand and to be take as such.
To me, if you are doing wooden sword work you MUST still have in the back of your mind that it is a blade, not a stick.
Too many seem to forget that.

[SimonM]

I remember the first time I got hit with a bokken, **** I never felt anything like it !
Been hit with rattan sticks and bamboo swords but nothing ever felt like that !
LMAO !
In training I say go padded BUT if doing a "competitive" test then the less the better.
The thing is that "stick fighting" is NOT sword fighting so when you replace the blade with the stick, you need to remember the context of what you are doing.
Getting whacked on the thigh with a stick hurts but won't stop you in the heat of the fight, BUT if it was a blade your leg would be a nice piece of bloody meat.
getting chopped on the wrist is NOT a point but a lost of the hand and to be take as such.
To me, if you are doing wooden sword work you MUST still have in the back of your mind that it is a blade, not a stick.
Too many seem to forget that.

Agreed. But at least wood swords hurt and they have weight like a real sword would. It's not a perfect solution, but it's the best we're likely to do without killing each other in duels.

Although, if dueling scars came back in-vogue I'd probably pick up a blade for the (usually non-lethal) German college style dueling.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Agreed. But at least wood swords hurt and they have weight like a real sword would. It's not a perfect solution, but it's the best we're likely to do without killing each other in duels.

Although, if dueling scars came back in-vogue I'd probably pick up a blade for the (usually non-lethal) German college style dueling.

Yes. I read about that style of duelling and those rather freaky looking protective gears.

[IronFist]

Agreed. But at least wood swords hurt and they have weight like a real sword would. It's not a perfect solution, but it's the best we're likely to do without killing each other in duels.

Although, if dueling scars came back in-vogue I'd probably pick up a blade for the (usually non-lethal) German college style dueling.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b7/Adolf_Hoffmann-Heyden.JPG/450px-Adolf_Hoffmann-Heyden.JPG

[David Jamieson]

...or you could fence with epees or sabres...

much better than wooden swords. :p

[sanjuro_ronin]

...or you could fence with epees or sabres...

much better than wooden swords. :p

Indeed and they present their own variety of challenges too.

[MightyB]

I think Wenshu won this thread already guys....

It was an epic post. Had a diagram and everything. Yeah he won the internet.

[SimonM]

...or you could fence with epees or sabres...

much better than wooden swords. :p

If you like light dueling blades. But if you prefer older, heavier swords you need something with a bit more heft than an epee or a sabre.

That said, I missed out on buying a set of foils this weekend for dirt cheap. Was disappointed.

[MightyB]

If a person really likes to masturbate... does that mean they're good at f***ing too?

[RWilson]

What is this, an old kung fu movie?



You were joking about doing dishes helping you become a better fighter, right?

Of course!! I was making fun of the fact that Kung foo people do everything to learn to fight Bessie's fighting.

[sanjuro_ronin]

If a person really likes to masturbate... does that mean they're good at f***ing too?

Are we talking about men or women?
:D

[Lucas]

hay guyz i hear someone said that kung fu is not good for fighting. lets all quit cuz i read on the internet its all fake. gots to be teh true

[MightyB]

hay guyz i hear someone said that kung fu is not good for fighting. lets all quit cuz i read on the internet its all fake. gots to be teh true

Well it's because TCMA is really just a stupid hobby that has no value for anything. Actually it's something Bawang created to get the white man's moneez but somehow something backfired and he didn't get the moneez.

[bawang]

WRONG

the purpose of kung fu is not to get the monay, its to get the poonanay. monay is only a means to an end.

[MightyB]

WRONG

the purpose of kung fu is not to get the monay, its to get the poonanay. monay is only a means to an end.

Ok that's funny - That's why we kow tow to Bawang, "King of the Internet".


You're way cooler than Coach Ross.

[bawang]

no one is as cool as mighty david ross (peace be upon him)

[RWilson]

As much as I don’t like some of Wilsons posts, he makes some very valid points in this one

And as much as I believe frost has the girly temperament of Michael Bisping...I must agree with his excellent assessment. Good job, frost.

[RWilson]

Actually I think he does, there are no competition clips from anyone from his lineage of bagua and wrestling as far as I can find so its not any different from any other TCMA lineage and the whole I will throw you on your head, we are too dangerous to spar unless you are an advanced student, and don’t go for submission but the break stuff coming out of the gompa is part of the whole we are too deadly thing that plagues TCMA, in this regard he is no better or worse than anyone
The only clip of dale is a demo of skills that might or might not be useful in a real fight with guys much bigger than him, most fighters and guys who have competed would take more notice if it was a real competition against people his own size actually trying to knock him out, as Wilson says
And saying come visit me sounds good but realistically who will bother doing this and what would it prove if say someone like Wilson did visit him? That dale can beat a smaller opponent? Saying people are no names if they don’t come visit him or don’t post their own names is a bit inflated if all the can post is a demo clip

Dale is constantly alluding to his fighting skillz. He does not say so outrightly because he has no proof and wants to come off as the humble but deadly ba gua spinner.

The truth is that anything will work for someone that naturally has height, power, build, and reach. Jon Bones Jones is the perfect example. Just because you are a giant and make wing chun work it does not mean wc is worth learning. He had to have used it against non-wing chunners, who are actually trying to hurt him, and who are his size and weight.

Jon Jones probably would not fare will in heavy weight at this time until he gains more weight naturally. He comes down to lhw because his size helps him. Same for GSP.

Dale, stop alluding to your deadly skills. Sanjuro keeps saying that Dale never said he can fight, that he is dangerous, that he can use his ba gua. You know what, Dale? Just admit here that you cannot really fight. That you really practice a form of moving meditation and that you have no abilities.

Sanjuro, if Dale does not admit this then you need to stop defending him and saying that he never stated he was a good fighter yada yada.

[RWilson]

no one is as cool as mighty david ross (peace be upon him)

Why did you have mention that ****? Bawang wants me to make fun of him.

[I Hate Ashida Kim]

You're still missing the point.

It only matters if other people are "sackless/spineless dweebs" if they are making claims themselves.

I'm not a very good singer, but I can tell you when professional singers miss notes. I don't have to be a better singer than them to be correct in identifying when they are sharp/flat.

If RWilson was talking about being a qigong master, breaking the bottom brick with qi (rather than with physics), catching bullets in his teeth, etc., but failing to show any proof, then sure, he's open to ridicule.

If RWilson is saying he's better than people at certain things but failing to show any proof, then sure, call him a "sackless/spineless dweeb."

Your "my door is always open" attitude is fine, but it doesn't prove anything you've said or disprove anything anyone else is saying.

Some people just don't seem to grasp that.


If someone says they can do x, and they want other people to believe that they can do x, then it is up to them to demonstrate that they can do x.

Dale seems to want this forum to believe so badly that he's a bad ass. The only other person I've seen get that p*ssed off when questioned was Ashida Kim! And naturally so, because Ashida Kim had no skills to prove so his entire business was based on people believing he was a ninja.

The only people who believed Ashida were little kids who wanted to believe they were learning secret ninja tricks.

And the ironic part is I don't even think Dale is a fake or anything like Ashida Kim is, it just seems that his ego is too tied up in what this forum thinks about him.

And I agree with the person who said posting a push hands vid is not a demonstration of fighting ability against a resisting opponent.

Dale has posted a lot of vids, so lets give him credit for that.

Dale has posted iron palm vids (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e07dVIJNLHY). I'm going to believe him that they are legit and he's not cooking the bricks or anything. He probably has good iron palm development.

Dale has posted breaking the bottom brick vids. I'm going to believe him that they are legit and he's not up to any funny business (even though the bottom brick is a different color (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyXzlR3sDAc)). But as pointed out numerous times, this is 100% physics and 0% qigong powers. He's not projecting his qi through the first brick and into the bottom brick. As pointed out before, this has been done with a hammer, too (the vid was posted here before but I can't find it on YouTube at the moment). Or if you want, you can put a very small peble over the bottom brick (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrbXObZsG1Q). Or match sticks (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=257090).

Dale has posted vids of walking the circle with kettlebells (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcVY6-EpIkY) and also with a weight vest while holding two kettlebells overhead (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4PPD-lHBrE). He seems to be in pretty good shape, especially for a bigger guy. Most people probably couldn't do that. But that has nothing to do with fighting ability, nor is anything in that video transferrable to fighting. And before everyone here jizzes their pants at his strength, Dale is a big guy and probably weighs at least 250lbs. Those are 50 pound kettlebells according to the video description. That means each kettlebell is, at most 1/5 of Dale's weight. So that is equivalent to a skinny 150 pound KFM forum nerd or, as Dale likes to call them, "spineless/sackless dweebs," using 30 pound kettlebells, which would be quite easy with a bit of training.

Dale has posted vids of people throwing McDojo punches at him in an iron body demo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfVhDHlsWCw). The backfist at 0:21 is especially laughable. Is this iron body development or just people smaller than him half assing their strikes? Or are you going to tell me that those were qi-laden strikes that would kill a lesser man?

Dale appears to have decent physical conditioning but that vid is nothing that a mid level MMA guy couldn't do, even without "iron body" training.

To claim that that was "qi" protecting him from those strikes would be laughable, but I give Dale props in that vid for not standing stationary in a horse stance and doing qigong exercises to "build his protective qi" and the other nonsense that you usually see in those vids.

None of these vids have anything to do with fighting ability, however. They just indicate that Dale appears to be in decent shape and very good shape for a TMAist.

Under the same account that has all the videos of Dale is a video of John Painter moving some guy without touching him (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XI8JwLUako&feature=channel&list=UL). Maybe this is high level ability that Dale hasn't achieved yet. And I'm pretty sure that opponent wasn't resisting.

[Dale Dugas]

really?

again with the people who hide and snipe at those who do not.

why is it you two feel you have to hide?

There is something seriously psychological wrong with people who hide.

enough said.

[David Jamieson]

really?

again with the people who hide and snipe at those who do not.

why is it you two feel you have to hide?

There is something seriously psychological wrong with people who hide.

enough said.

Truth.

Hiding is done in fear.

[Dale Dugas]

Hence my commenting on their lack of vertebral and testicular fortitude.

IE Netghosts are nothing but cowardly mouthboxers.

[MightyB]

I thought Wenshu won this thread already :confused:

[sanjuro_ronin]

I thought Wenshu won this thread already :confused:

I think this dead horse can take a few more whippings !
:D

[Dale Dugas]

Hiding on the net and making fun of people is the new reality.

[MightyB]

Hiding on the net and making fun of people is the new reality.

And don't forget championing the cause to transform all MA to MMA.

[sanjuro_ronin]

And don't forget championing the cause to transform all MA to MMA.

Personally I think that ALL MA should use MMA for what it was designed for:
A testing venue.
Honestly, does ANYONE see a problem with that?

[MightyB]

Honestly, does ANYONE see a problem with that?

Your mom sees a problem with that :D

[RWilson]

Personally I think that ALL MA should use MMA for what it was designed for:
A testing venue.
Honestly, does ANYONE see a problem with that?

I agre. This would keep kung foo honest.

[MightyB]

Personally I think that ALL MA should use MMA for what it was designed for:
A testing venue.
Honestly, does ANYONE see a problem with that?

- it's not appropriate for ALL MA. Does a boxer need to do MMA, a Judoka, a TKD competitor, a Thai Boxer, a San Da guy, a Shuai Jiao guy? Nope.

MMA is for MMA. Do MMA if that's your thing.

[MightyB]

http://a3.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/81/fe6517dc73744411accbcbc5a1f37c92/m.jpg
..........

[sanjuro_ronin]

- it's not appropriate for ALL MA. Does a boxer need to do MMA, a Judoka, a TKD competitor, a Thai Boxer, a San Da guy, a Shuai Jiao guy? Nope.

MMA is for MMA. Do MMA if that's your thing.

A valid point, systems that already have their own "testing" ground sure.
BUT that is not what my point was.
MMA is a testing ground for those that want to test their MA in a very limited rules environment.
That is what it was developed for.
Using if for that purpose shouldn't be an issue.
If a MA claims to be "complete" or able to deal with ALL facets of the fight game then the MMA enviornment is the perfect testing ground.
Wouldn't you agree?
I'll give you an example:
Before MMA, guys like me who wanted to test their fighting skills have to compete in different 'events" - Judo for jacketed grappling and wrestling for non-jacket, boxing or Muay Thai/KB for striking, but I never could put them all togther expect for in-house sparring ( where you do NOT get tested to the max like you do in competition).
With MMA we have that.
This is NOT a bad thing.

[SimonM]

MMA is for MMA. Do MMA if that's your thing.

I like all kinds of martial arts - shuai jiao, folk wrestling, jiujutsu, European sword, Chinese sword, hung gar, etc.

Some of those are TCMA.

But if they are all occupying the me-space that makes them basically MMA....

So what if my thing is both?

http://verydemotivational.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/demotivational-posters-ever-hear-the-saying-cant-beat-a-dead-horse.jpg

[sanjuro_ronin]

I like all kinds of martial arts - shuai jiao, folk wrestling, jiujutsu, European sword, Chinese sword, hung gar, etc.

Some of those are TCMA.

But if they are all occupying the me-space that makes them basically MMA....

So what if my thing is both?

I have NEVER done MMA and I have competed in it ( Vale tudo actually) and never had to stop what I was doing to "do MMA".

[MightyB]

If a MA claims to be "complete" or able to deal with ALL facets of the fight game then the MMA enviornment is the perfect testing ground.
Wouldn't you agree?
I'll give you an example:
Before MMA, guys like me who wanted to test their fighting skills have to compete in different 'events" - Judo for jacketed grappling and wrestling for non-jacket, boxing or Muay Thai/KB for striking, but I never could put them all togther expect for in-house sparring ( where you do NOT get tested to the max like you do in competition).
With MMA we have that.
This is NOT a bad thing.

I agree to a point, but are there really that many people out there that think they have the whole fight game covered in one system?

I say that TCMA has a good thing going with San Da, but Sport Jiu Jitsu would be better.

MMA is for people who want to fight in MMA.

[SimonM]

I have NEVER done MMA and I have competed in it ( Vale tudo actually) and never had to stop what I was doing to "do MMA".

I competed in what I thought was going to be a MMA event - got to the venue and found the guy who convinced me to compete had lied and it was an un-licensed toughman boxing tournament.

Got my ass SO knocked out.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I competed in what I thought was going to be a MMA event - got to the venue and found the guy who convinced me to compete had lied and it was an un-licensed toughman boxing tournament.

Got my ass SO knocked out.

My first Vale tudo was in a biker bar in Montreal.
Dude...:eek:
My opponent tried to bite my foot at one point, LOL !

[MightyB]

I like all kinds of martial arts - shuai jiao, folk wrestling, jiujutsu, European sword, Chinese sword, hung gar, etc.

So what if my thing is both?

Well you're a few pennies shy of a dollar so it's hard to diagnose :D

[SimonM]

Well you're a few pennies shy of a dollar so it's hard to diagnose :D

True. .....

[I Hate Ashida Kim]

really?

again with the people who hide and snipe at those who do not.

why is it you two feel you have to hide?

There is something seriously psychological wrong with people who hide.

enough said.

The people who do not make any claims have nothing to prove.

So far you have proved that:

- You have decent iron palm skill (video proof)
- You can walk in circles holding weights over your head (video proof)
- You can withstand weak punches from people smaller than you (video proof)
- Your lack of professionalism borders on that of Ashida Kim's and you don't know how to handle criticism, which isn't even really criticism, although you have insulted many people in this thread, no one has really insulted you; hence a lack of professionalism (forum proof)

I haven't proved anything because I haven't made any claims.

The only way I have to prove anything is if I make claims, or if I directly say I'm better than you at something (which is a claim).

I am seriously dumbfounded that you don't understand this, but it does explain your attitude.

I'm surprised at the number of people rushing to your defense, but then again this is a CMA forum and CMA is known for "sifu is always right" and "omg this guy has mystic powers" rather than free thought. But I'm sure you like all these "spineless/sackless dweebs" defending you on an internet forum :D

Maybe I should create another account and talk about what a bad ass I am and post some videos that have nothing to do with fighting and have some people throw some weak punches at me and then I'll get a ton of followers who think I'm a super IMA bad ass, too.

On almost any other internet forum you would have been laughed away by now, but KFM is special.

Anyway, is that dude who moved that guy without touching him your sifu? Did he teach you that ability?

[I Hate Ashida Kim]

Also I know what your reply is going to be:


Ha! More sniping! Just another "net ghost" who tries to snipe from the anonymity of the internet. My door is always open if you want to come test blah blah blah

Which, again, doesn't disprove anything anyone has said, nor does it prove any of your claims.

But for some reason it entertains the posters on this forum :confused:

[Dale Dugas]

So you pull out the professionalism card.

I post under my own name, where I teach, where I practice acupuncture and herbal medicine.

I have an open door policy and can back up what I post here with physical means. i.e. I can show you the floor, the walls and your lack of real training.

I am on all the major ma forums out there. I am even on Bullshido where they do not put up with this kind of one sided sniping. You start to snipe, you come up with facts or you are banned for being a mouthboxer/slanderer/libeler.

But you can snipe, slander and libel people without regard because you are a cool netghost who hides behind a proxy server. Sometime I wonder why Gene puts up with this s hit.

Yet, I am the "UN"professional one???

Wow.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I worry about you guys sometimes.
Someone says that IP is BS and Dale offers to prove it to them.
Someone says IB is BS and Dale offers to prove it to them
Someone says that TCMA can't fight and Dale offers to prove it to them.
In all accounts he is NOT taken up on his offers.
And HE is the one with the problem !
LMAO !!!
Guys, come on now.

[MightyB]

I worry about you guys sometimes.
Someone says that IP is BS and Dale offers to prove it to them.
Someone says IB is BS and Dale offers to prove it to them
Someone says that TCMA can't fight and Dale offers to prove it to them.
In all accounts he is NOT taken up on his offers.
And HE is the one with the problem !
LMAO !!!
Guys, come on now.

And I still want that Beer! Dale - you're buying! :D

[I Hate Ashida Kim]

So you pull out the professionalism card.

I post under my own name, where I teach, where I practice acupuncture and herbal medicine.

I have an open door policy and can back up what I post here with physical means. i.e. I can show you the floor, the walls and your lack of real training.

Beating us up does not prove you have skills.

Show me where anyone here said they are a skilled fighter.

The only way what you are proposing would work is if I said I was a skilled fighter and said I was better than you.


I am on all the major ma forums out there. I am even on Bullshido where they do not put up with this kind of one sided sniping. You start to snipe, you come up with facts or you are banned for being a mouthboxer/slanderer/libeler.

I know. You do the same thing on Bullshido. You cannot handle criticism.

"my door is always open" doesn't prove anything.


But you can snipe, slander and libel people without regard because you are a cool netghost who hides behind a proxy server.
Show me an instance of slander or libel?

I said you are unprofessional. Defense of libel is truth. When someone questions you you insult them. That is unprofessional. I'd be embarrassed if my teacher acted that way. 404 libel not found.

You have been doing the same thing for years (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=885250&postcount=58).

I am not the only poerson who has noticed (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=885256&postcount=60).





Sometime I wonder why Gene puts up with this s hit.

lol, even Gene calls you on your BS (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=885408&postcount=73).


I worry about you guys sometimes.
Someone says that IP is BS and Dale offers to prove it to them.

IIRC no one said that. In fact, a few pages back I even said it looks like Dale has legit IP skills and I even posted a vid to prove that he does, in fact, appear to have legit IP skills.

I also said he appears to be in good shape, especially for a TMA guy (who typically avoid weights). However, his kettlebell + weighted vest vid doesn't mean he can fight. If someone posted a vid of themselves bench pressing 500 pounds EVERYONE would be quick to say "THAT DOESN'T MEAN YOU CAN FIGHT!!!!!" Dale's strength demo vid has even less application to fighting than bench pressing does, yet no one points it out because it's some ancient kung fu movie looking stuff.


Someone says IB is BS and Dale offers to prove it to them

Where did he offer to have trained fighters come hit him?

IIRC the argument was that IB has nothing to do with qi and some criteria were set forth for anyone wanting to claim IB is a function of qi (rather than muscle strength and, uh, protective layering of tissue) to demonstrate it. The onus of proof is on Dale, if he wants to make the claim that his IB is the result of qi rather than muscle and size.

But the IB video he posted was pretty weak. That's not libel. Just watch the vid.


Someone says that TCMA can't fight and Dale offers to prove it to them.

Where did he offer to fight trained fighters?

Dale has challenged me (indirectly, of course: "my door is always open") but I'm not really a good fighter. I'm also half Dale's size. This is a no-win for him.

If we were to fight and he won, good for him, he beat up someone much smaller than him.

If we were to fight and he lost, lol, he got beaten up by someone much smaller than him and loses all his e-cred.

You prove your MA works by fighting trained fighters.

Dale has already called me a "spineless/sackless dweeb", a "mouth-boxer," a "sniper," and a "net ghost." Clearly I am low value in his mind. Why would he even want to fight me?


In all accounts he is NOT taken up on his offers.
And HE is the one with the problem !
LMAO !!!
Guys, come on now.

Sanjuro, you are one of the smart ones. I am surprised you are taking his side.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Beating us up does not prove you have skills.

Show me where anyone here said they are a skilled fighter.

The only way what you are proposing would work is if I said I was a skilled fighter and said I was better than you.



I know. You do the same thing on Bullshido. You cannot handle criticism.

"my door is always open" doesn't prove anything.


Show me an instance of slander or libel?

I said you are unprofessional. Defense of libel is truth. When someone questions you you insult them. That is unprofessional. I'd be embarrassed if my teacher acted that way. 404 libel not found.

You have been doing the same thing for years (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=885250&postcount=58).

I am not the only poerson who has noticed (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=885256&postcount=60).






lol, even Gene calls you on your BS (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=885408&postcount=73).



IIRC no one said that. In fact, a few pages back I even said it looks like Dale has legit IP skills and I even posted a vid to prove that he does, in fact, appear to have legit IP skills.

I also said he appears to be in good shape, especially for a TMA guy (who typically avoid weights). However, his kettlebell + weighted vest vid doesn't mean he can fight. If someone posted a vid of themselves bench pressing 500 pounds EVERYONE would be quick to say "THAT DOESN'T MEAN YOU CAN FIGHT!!!!!" Dale's strength demo vid has even less application to fighting than bench pressing does, yet no one points it out because it's some ancient kung fu movie looking stuff.



Where did he offer to have trained fighters come hit him?

IIRC the argument was that IB has nothing to do with qi and some criteria were set forth for anyone wanting to claim IB is a function of qi (rather than muscle strength and, uh, protective layering of tissue) to demonstrate it. The onus of proof is on Dale, if he wants to make the claim that his IB is the result of qi rather than muscle and size.

But the IB video he posted was pretty weak. That's not libel. Just watch the vid.



Where did he offer to fight trained fighters?

Dale has challenged me (indirectly, of course: "my door is always open") but I'm not really a good fighter. I'm also half Dale's size. This is a no-win for him.

If we were to fight and he won, good for him, he beat up someone much smaller than him.

If we were to fight and he lost, lol, he got beaten up by someone much smaller than him and loses all his e-cred.

You prove your MA works by fighting trained fighters.

Dale has already called me a "spineless/sackless dweeb", a "mouth-boxer," a "sniper," and a "net ghost." Clearly I am low value in his mind. Why would he even want to fight me?



Sanjuro, you are one of the smart ones. I am surprised you are taking his side.

I am speaking of these situations in general, not this thread in specific.
The open door policy is NOT A challenge to fight but for anyone to come see for themselves.
If I say to a person that my door is always open to show them my version of IP or SPM or what not, nowhere does that imply fighting UNLESS a person wants to test by fighting.
Dale has extended his invite to anyone, including trained fighters here and on Bullshido.
The man is saying that if you wanna test one or more of his skill sets that he is willing to let you.
Seriously, WTF is wrong with that?
Sure I don't like it when Dale calls you guys a bunch of mouth boxers and wimps but hey, you guys are big boys and you should be able to "get as good as you get".

If someone critiques one or more of my skill sets I will open the invitation for them as well, that is not "not being able to handle critique", it is quite simply "answering critique".

[sanjuro_ronin]

This thread needs something to lighten the mood:
http://www.chicblogclub.com/wp-content/gallery/sexy-beach-girls/080925-sexy-beach-girls-05.jpg

[I Hate Ashida Kim]

I am speaking of these situations in general, not this thread in specific.
The open door policy is NOT A challenge to fight but for anyone to come see for themselves.

Look at the phrasing here:


I have an open door policy and can back up what I post here with physical means. i.e. I can show you the floor, the walls and your lack of real training.


That was as much of a challenge as you can get without actually saying "I am challenging you."


The man is saying that if you wanna test one or more of his skill sets that he is willing to let you.

Well I doubt any trained fighters care enough to set that up, but I would be interested in the result regardless if they did.

I wonder what Dale is expecting, though.

He has to know the likelihood of someone actually answering his challenge is pretty low. So perhaps in his mind he never loses because no one accepts his challenge (which, by Dale's logic, probably means it's because everyone is afraid of him).

If Dale wants to prove he is a skillful fighter, the onus of proof is on him to prove it. There are plenty of competitions he can enter to prove this. Why does someone need to fly to him and fight him in order for him to prove it? Dale logic.

If Dale wants to prove his IB works against people his size who aren't throwing weak punches, it's already been suggested how he could find volunteers to do that. The problems with the IB video he posted were:

- everyone was smaller than him
- they weren't really hitting him hard, they looked like McDojo techniques
- they were probably his students or classmates and were just playing anyway

Now watch, Dale's reply will be "HEY NET GHOST, WHY DON'T YOU POST A BETTER IB VIDEO THEN IF YOU ARE SO TOUGH? MOUTH BOXER MOUTH BOXER NET GHOST."

Poor Dale doesn't understand that 1) I never claimed I am so tough and 2) the onus of proof is on him to provide proof to support his claims. Even if I were to do as he says and post an iron body video, it would neither prove nor disprove Dale's own claims. Until Dale understands that, he is doomed to stay exactly where he is in his development/cred/online reputation.

If I wanted to prove I was a skilled fighter I would enter tournaments against other skilled fighters. I wouldn't go around challenging random internet people. It doesn't work that way.

[Dale Dugas]

really?

keep digging that hole.

How is it that an unknown self described little stick feels they can slander, libel and snipe but if I retort, I am the bad guy?

WTF is wrong with you?

[MightyB]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_ahWcGWlSZBM/TTX-n-EhEVI/AAAAAAAABLA/F9qhUgyt-GE/s1600/Models+Woman+in+bikini+rear+naked+choking+woman+in +bikini.jpg
..........

[goju]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_ahWcGWlSZBM/TTX-n-EhEVI/AAAAAAAABLA/F9qhUgyt-GE/s1600/Models+Woman+in+bikini+rear+naked+choking+woman+in +bikini.jpg
..........


wait a minute are those twins?:eek:

......
:D