teaching Chin-Na/Cum-Na

[TenTigers]

When I learned joint manipulations, my teacher would perform joint-locks pretty dang hard.
he would take you past the point of,"Ahhh-ahhh!" and right to the point of involuntary leg spasms and gurgling noises-what seemed to me as right before the breaking point. Every time. If there was a lock that took you down, you literally tried to race him to the floor (face first)
You learned fast-mainly because you didn't want him to do it again!
But...you also knew the technique worked, and you knew the exact angle because you recognized the feeling/pain.
You also had a healthy respect/fear for your teacher.
(These stupid conversations on the forums about asking your teacher to fight, etc. would never even enter your mind.)
So..for the teachers here, especially John and Gino, who do teach chin-na, how hard do you crank it when you are teaching a student?
I ask this because I have the feeling that I have been way too kind to my students when it comes to them feeling certain techniques, strikes included. Way kinder than my teachers were to me, and I'm still here. But I would like to know your experiences, and opinions.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You pretty much crank the lock to the max that is safe.
Worse case you may get a dislocation, no biggie.
Eventually a fighter must know the PAIN of any technqiue and the consequences of any technique.
This is why you DO get choked out or get something dislocated if you don't tap in Judo/JJ/Submission grappling.

[Brule]

You apply as much as it takes for the guy to feel the pain and not have any chance to resist it cause once you start getting too soft on the lock you know some jerk is gonna resist you and try to make you look like a fool.

[ginosifu]

TT:

My teacher demonstrated the kum na technique and made you eat dirt. He was always polite and was not trying hurt us but, really trying to let us fell the real power of the lock.

I do the same to all my students. Apply enough pressure to ensure they feel and understand how much power is in the lock so they know how much to instill to fellow student as they practice. We have a tap out system in place.... If you feel that it is more than hurting you and or you feel they have lock done right, then you either tap yourself or tap them and they will immediately release the lock.

No one is trying to hurt each other but there must be some force applied or you are just playing pattycake.

ginosifu

[sanjuro_ronin]

Some locks are such that they don't need pain to make them work ( those are commonly called immobilizations) but most small joint ones do, especially fingers and wrists and to demo them correctly ie: get the right reaction, one must do them hard.
Of course the point of those attacks are NOT pain compliance or immobilization BUT dislocation and when done correctly ( which you can't do in training) the end result is only one: dislocation.
In training we can come close but to do that, PAIN is a must.

[David Jamieson]

Many kum na are pain inducing.
joint seizes, holds and manipulations are myriad.

where did you start? handshake or wristlock?

[taai gihk yahn]

I ask this because I have the feeling that I have been way too kind to my students when it comes to them feeling certain techniques, strikes included. Way kinder than my teachers were to me, and I'm still here.
i agree w all the other guys - I mean, CTS used to grab us pretty hard - you knew what it was supposed to feel like; all the jujitsu / aikido guys I trained with, when they put on the lock, u really felt it, no question about it;

just curious, what leads you to that conclusion? were u purposefully scaling things back so as not to injure them, or freak them out? I can totally understand in the world of soccer moms w lawyers on speed dial, why one might b more cautious than not in this department...

[TenTigers]

Handshake if they owe me moneys.
"Hey, how are you? "(handshake)
"OW-OW-STOP SIFU-OW..!"
"You're late on your tuition...":D


ok, so I'm 16/17 trs old and taking TKD and Hapkido.
My teacher when he taught techniques from a handshake, would always offer his hand and say,"How ah yoo..?" (Korean accent)
and then bend you into a screaming pretzel.
One day, I'm waiting for my Mom to pick me up from class outside of Sabumnim's office, and a guy walks in, apparently a long time student..who's been recently absent.
-and I hear this:
"Hi Sabumnim."
"Paul! Rong time no see! How ah yoo...?"
"OW-OW-OW-AHHH"
I look in and Sabumnim is sitting at his desk, and has this guy in a wristlock bent over backwards across the desk, writhing in agony. Sitting there he calmly says to him,
"How come you no come to crass..?"

Old school rocks!

[TenTigers]

i agree w all the other guys - I mean, CTS used to grab us pretty hard - you knew what it was supposed to feel like; all the jujitsu / aikido guys I trained with, when they put on the lock, u really felt it, no question about it;

just curious, what leads you to that conclusion? were u purposefully scaling things back so as not to injure them, or freak them out? I can totally understand in the world of soccer moms w lawyers on speed dial, why one might b more cautious than not in this department...
yep, and what Brule said.

[bawang]

i cum na all the time babby. all the time.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Handshake if they owe me moneys.
"Hey, how are you? "(handshake)
"OW-OW-STOP SIFU-OW..!"
"You're late on your tuition...":D


ok, so I'm 16/17 trs old and taking TKD and Hapkido.
My teacher when he taught techniques from a handshake, would always offer his hand and say,"How ah yoo..?" (Korean accent)
and then bend you into a screaming pretzel.
One day, I'm waiting for my Mom to pick me up from class outside of Sabumnim's office, and a guy walks in, apparently a long time student..who's been recently absent.
-and I hear this:
"Hi Sabumnim."
"Paul! Rong time no see! How ah yoo...?"
"OW-OW-OW-AHHH"
I look in and Sabumnim is sitting at his desk, and has this guy in a wristlock bent over backwards across the desk, writhing in agony. Sitting there he calmly says to him,
"How come you no come to crass..?"

Old school rocks!

Ah the memories...
Never liked wrist locks myself, I have small wrists and they always hurt so freaking much !

[bawang]

a lot of qin na taught today is militia police techniques for arresting and tying up untrained civilians.

as a combat art qin na is chinese wrestling with hard grabs allowed. chinese traditional wrestling was a sport and didnt allow "pinching".

for example the neck clinch, chinese wrestling uses hook, but in qin na you grab the hair. for underhook you also grab the hair. for overhook you grab the skin.


a common poem is "qin na stance seals the legs".

[taai gihk yahn]

yep, and what Brule said.

great - damed if u do, damed if u don't

I tell ya, every time I think "freak this PT cr@p, I'll just open a school and teach classically oriented TCMA", I think about what guys like u, Gus etc go thru on a daily basis trying to keep things in balance, and then things don't seem so bad...

[JamesC]

Cry in the gym so you can laugh in the ring.

[ShaolinDan]

My experience is that you've got to adjust your chinna to your students/training partner. Part of the skill is reading people quickly. You want to go as hard as you can without making them feel abused...this is a huge range and does not necessarily correlate with their toughness; it's a real challenge. Also it depends on how people feel about you...if I applied my chinna as hard as my shifu does on the same person(assuming I even can) a lot more people would get upset with me than get upset with him--how much license do you have to hurt the person you're working with? :)

[bawang]

if you want to know what is real or fake qin na, tense your muscles and resist. fake qin na cant do anything if you simply tense up.

[TenTigers]

if you want to know what is real or fake qin na, tense your muscles and resist. fake qin na cant do anything if you simply tense up.
yeah, this is why we strike to set up a lock, to set up a strike.

[taai gihk yahn]

yeah, this is why we strike to set up a lock, to set up a strike.

wait - u mean, you don't just touch their wrist and watch them go flying through the air? :confused::confused::confused:

[MightyB]

wait - u mean, you don't just touch their wrist and watch them go flying through the air? :confused::confused::confused:

They must not have the Realz Kung Fu!

[YouKnowWho]

I would like to know your experiences, and opinions.
1st, you need to be able to change the locking direction that you want to teach.

For example, If you apply "downward" wrist lock and your opponent raise his elbow, you change your wrist lock into "horizontal". If he turns, you change it into "pulling toward you". The direction of your lock should be able to changed according to your opponent's reaction.

2nd, Just like throw, all locks need to be learned in pair in opposit direction.

For example, if you try an "backward" elbow lock and your opponent resists, you can change it into a reverse direction "forward" shoulder lock.

3rd, all locks will need to take your opponent down to the ground.

For example, when you apply a wrist lock, you need to move in toward your opponent until he collapses down to the ground (some people may like to pull in this situation but I believe pushing is better).

[MightyB]

1st, you need to be able to change the locking direction that you want to teach.

For example, If you apply "downward" wrist lock and your opponent raise his elbow, you change your wrist lock into "horizontal". If he turns, you change it into "pulling toward you". The direction of your lock should be able to change according to your opponent's reaction.

2nd, Just like throw, all lock need to be earned in pair in opposit direction.

For example, if you try an elbow lock nand your opponent resists, you can change it into a reverse direction shoulder lock.

3rd, all lock will need to take your opponent down to the ground.

For example, when you apply a wrist lock, you need to move in toward to your opponent until he collapses down to the ground (some people may like to pull in this situation but I thingh pushing is better).

In all seriousness - I don't think people spend enough time learning proper wrist and grip control before they leap into trying chin na. We spend a lot of time just working on escaping a grip to establish a better grip on your opponent - this drill is done simply by having someone grab your wrist hard and while pulling and you have to be able to break their grip by regripping them. Once you have this mastered - you can master a couple of good chin na techs easily.

[taai gihk yahn]

They must not have the Realz Kung Fu!

but see, they do - Rik has a big sign on the front of his school that says:
"DA R3ALZ KUNG FU HERE!"

[MightyB]

and that brings up another point - the grab and pull. Nobody just grabs you, they grab to control - so they need to grab and pull or grab and push to give you better sense of what real chin na is like. And if it's a bar scuffle - they're grabbing to pull you into their punch!

[MightyB]

but see, they do - Rik has a big sign on the front of his school that says:
"DA R3ALZ KUNG FU HERE!"

And they hold their guns sideways for the kill shot! :eek:

[YouKnowWho]

There are 2 kind of students. One kind believes in you. The other kind does not. It's an art to convert any student from the 2nd kind into the 1st kind.

Old Chinese saying said, "A bad punch is still better than a good lock". You can teach all 40 locks in 3 - 4 hours. Your students will develop just enough confidence to get hurt in the street.

[Brule]

And they hold their guns sideways for the kill shot! :eek:

Pfft, obviously, you have been mislead......

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_k07pirzBU34/TEPPXDgmGOI/AAAAAAAAFQI/3s2gVI0UaXs/s400/gangsta_trend_0902orgB.jpg

[MightyB]

Old Chinese saying said, "A bad punch is still better than a good lock". You can teach all 40 locks in 3 - 4 hours. Your students will develop just enough confidence to get hurt in the street.

My Sigung used to play this funny trick on us... he'd say "grab my wrist" so you'd grab it limply - Then he'd say "NO Grab my wrist harder", so you'd really leach on - then he'd punch you really hard with this big arse ring right in a pressure point and laugh when you let go because you were too preoccupied trying to grab him when he punched you.

[MightyB]

Pfft, obviously, you have been mislead......

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_k07pirzBU34/TEPPXDgmGOI/AAAAAAAAFQI/3s2gVI0UaXs/s400/gangsta_trend_0902orgB.jpg

Ultra bad arse!!!

[-N-]

You apply as much as it takes for the guy to feel the pain and not have any chance to resist it cause once you start getting too soft on the lock you know some jerk is gonna resist you and try to make you look like a fool.

I was working with a student on this in class.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b76/Mr_Ugly/download-9.gif

I gave him enough so that he was locked up to the point of losing his balance, but I didn't make him fall.

When I eased up, he tried to sucker punch me, thinking he had a great counter.

I locked it back up again to control him, but he panicked and tried to get away. He stumbled, caught his foot somehow, and tore his knee ligaments.

[YouKnowWho]

In all seriousness - I don't think people spend enough time learning proper wrist and grip control before they leap into trying chin na. We spend a lot of time just working on escaping a grip to establish a better grip on your opponent - this drill is done simply by having someone grab your wrist hard and while pulling and you have to be able to break their grip by regripping them. Once you have this mastered - you can master a couple of good chin na techs easily.
I like to use my right hand to grab on my left arm (wrist, elbow, upper arm, ...). My left arm then try to break the grip. The nice thing about this is I can train it 24/7.

[Subitai]

I was going to answer you Ten but then I realized that I didn't even make your special list of preferred teachers, and Locking is some of my best stuff!! So Sniff sniff... No Soup for you!!!!

I can tell you though, your asking the wrong question however. What comes before (how you set it up) is far more important. Both for attacker and defender.

I see you once every 5 yrs or so...so next time i'll share with you and you'll say to yourself..."HOLY SH!T that's what i've been missing.

:D

[TenTigers]

I was going to answer you Ten but then I realized that I didn't even make your special list of preferred teachers, and Locking is some of my best stuff!! So Sniff sniff... No Soup for you!!!!

I can tell you though, your asking the wrong question however. What comes before (how you set it up) is far more important. Both for attacker and defender.

I see you once every 5 yrs or so...so next time i'll share with you and you'll say to yourself..."HOLY SH!T that's what i've been missing.

:D
okie-dokie bro.
Pho's on me!

[Robinhood]

I don't think you can learn chin-na and apply it correctly , when you reach a certain level you will able to apply it any time because you know body mechanics and can feel what will work, otherwise you will never catch the right move and only try to force moves from visual cues .


Cheers

[Scott R. Brown]

I don't think you can learn chin-na and apply it correctly , when you reach a certain level you will able to apply it any time because you know body mechanics and can feel what will work, otherwise you will never catch the right move and only try to force moves from visual cues .


Cheers

This is true. In real life you cannot anticipate exactly how your opponent will react. Practicing in class is so formalized that beginners cannot conceive that in reality the opponent will react differently than in class.

But in class your opponent reacts in a manner that will cause the least amount of damage and or pain, he knows to go with the technique. In real life your opponent does not know what is going on or what reaction will bring the least amount of damage.

The natural reaction of most people is to oppose the pain with force, this will screw up a beginner to intermediate student because this reaction is different than what occurs with a cooperative opponent in class.

One must know how to flow from one technique to the next based upon how your opponent reacts. This takes years of experience and the proper mind set. The proper mind set may never be taught however, so even some people who consider themselves advanced may never be able to execute the techniques succcessfully in the wild!

[jmd161]

When I learned joint manipulations, my teacher would perform joint-locks pretty dang hard.
he would take you past the point of,"Ahhh-ahhh!" and right to the point of involuntary leg spasms and gurgling noises-what seemed to me as right before the breaking point. Every time. If there was a lock that took you down, you literally tried to race him to the floor (face first)
You learned fast-mainly because you didn't want him to do it again!
But...you also knew the technique worked, and you knew the exact angle because you recognized the feeling/pain.
You also had a healthy respect/fear for your teacher.
(These stupid conversations on the forums about asking your teacher to fight, etc. would never even enter your mind.)
So..for the teachers here, especially John and Gino, who do teach chin-na, how hard do you crank it when you are teaching a student?
I ask this because I have the feeling that I have been way too kind to my students when it comes to them feeling certain techniques, strikes included. Way kinder than my teachers were to me, and I'm still here. But I would like to know your experiences, and opinions.

My sifu always makes sure you feel the pain.. not to hurt you but, to show the effectiveness of each technique. Since I'm the big guy 6'2" over 300lbs I get to feel a lot more than most! :D LOL

Some people have higher threshold of pain than most.. with those you take it a bit further but not far enough to cause damage. I have a sihing like this... sifu gets the point across without having to hurt him.

As to the whole fight your teacher stuff... that thought has never entered my mind with my sifu... He does enough by training with us that tells us that wouldn't be a good idea!

[ginosifu]

TT:

Not to hijack your thread or anything but, How you apply your Kum Na?

1. Strictly dislocating joints?

2. Compliance thru pain?

3. Submission / Take down to ground?

4. Set ups for other tech's like strikes?

5. Set ups for other tech's like throws?

6. Set ups for other grappling techs?

How does everyone train their kum na?

ginosifu

[MightyB]

TT:

Not to hijack your thread or anything but, How you apply your Kum Na?

1. Strictly dislocating joints?

2. Compliance thru pain?

3. Submission / Take down to ground?

4. Set ups for other tech's like strikes?

5. Set ups for other tech's like throws?

6. Set ups for other grappling techs?

How does everyone train their kum na?

ginosifu

All of the above.

[jmd161]

TT:

Not to hijack your thread or anything but, How you apply your Kum Na?

1. Strictly dislocating joints?

2. Compliance thru pain?

3. Submission / Take down to ground?

4. Set ups for other tech's like strikes?

5. Set ups for other tech's like throws?

6. Set ups for other grappling techs?

How does everyone train their kum na?

ginosifu

Actually we do all of these except dislocating joints.. We are shown and taught those techniques but don't go that far of course. In Hak Fu we actually have 3 Kum Na forms... The forms are taught in a manner that makes them look like Taiji forms.

[YouKnowWho]

if you want to know what is real or fake qin na, tense your muscles and resist. fake qin na cant do anything if you simply tense up.

It won't work on this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOXygzpS9kI

[taai gihk yahn]

It won't work on this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOXygzpS9kI

it's true, I've seen it!

http://feelingsofwhite.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/rorschachbreakssomefingersfromalanmoorewatchmen.jp g

[bawang]

It won't work on this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOXygzpS9kI

usually, if a man wants to fight or kill you, he is not going to lovingly place his palm on your chest.

[Lucas]

usually, if a man wants to fight or kill you, he is not going to lovingly place his palm on your chest.

that is the technique you use on the gheys when they hit on you at the bar.

[bawang]

gays dont do that. when they attack they assume the goatse posture.

[Lucas]

gays dont do that. when they attack they assume the goatse posture.

i will defer to your experience.

[TenTigers]

TT:

Not to hijack your thread or anything but, How you apply your Kum Na?

1. Strictly dislocating joints?

2. Compliance thru pain?

3. Submission / Take down to ground?

4. Set ups for other tech's like strikes?

5. Set ups for other tech's like throws?

6. Set ups for other grappling techs?

How does everyone train their kum na?

ginosifu

All of the Above!

[SteveLau]

Let me turn myself in first by stating that I have never been an instructor.
As for teaching grappling, apply force that enable us to reach the goal of the technique and before injury occurs will be sufficient. That has taken into account of what the opponent will do.


KC
Hong Kong

[RWilson]

You pretty much crank the lock to the max that is safe.
Worse case you may get a dislocation, no biggie.
Eventually a fighter must know the PAIN of any technqiue and the consequences of any technique.
This is why you DO get choked out or get something dislocated if you don't tap in Judo/JJ/Submission grappling.

This thread is dumb. You either know how to do joint locks, and as a by product of know them, you know how to teach them.

Sanjuro, a dislocation is no biggie??? A dislocation is a biggie. Bone chips, ligaments stretch and tear. In other words you get fuked up. How could you make a statement like that. I do not know hOw it is in Canada but here in the USA you will get sued. If I am a cop...and you dislocate my right elbow or shoulder(my shooting arm) is it still a no biggie?? In a controlled environment these things should never happen. Sparring is different.

[Hebrew Hammer]

You pretty much crank the lock to the max that is safe.
Worse case you may get a dislocation, no biggie.


Pretty much depends on which end of the dislocation you're on. This would be bad, once you dislocate a joint it just makes it that much easier to dislocate again. I would highly avoid this.

[ginosifu]

This thread is dumb. You either know how to do joint locks, and as a by product of know them, you know how to teach them.

Sanjuro, a dislocation is no biggie??? A dislocation is a biggie. Bone chips, ligaments stretch and tear. In other words you get fuked up. How could you make a statement like that. I do not know hOw it is in Canada but here in the USA you will get sued. If I am a cop...and you dislocate my right elbow or shoulder(my shooting arm) is it still a no biggie?? In a controlled environment these things should never happen. Sparring is different.

In defense of SR, I have seen guys get their elbow hyper extended to the point of the arm was completely bent backwards. The guys arm was sore for several weeks... that's it.


This thread is dumb. You either know how to do joint locks, and as a by product of know them, you know how to teach them.

You are quite wrong. Just because you can apply joint lock does not necessarily mean you understand the mechanics and or are able to teach it to others. And.... NO this thread is not dumb.... The study of Chin Na / Kum Na is a indepth course that involves the study of the human anatomy and how you can manipulte it. I myself enjoy a good discussion about how others apply their locks and which locks they like etc.

ginosifu

[RWilson]

In defense of SR, I have seen guys get their elbow hyper extended to the point of the arm was completely bent backwards. The guys arm was sore for several weeks... that's it.



You are quite wrong. Just because you can apply joint lock does not necessarily mean you understand the mechanics and or are able to teach it to others. And.... NO this thread is not dumb.... The study of Chin Na / Kum Na is a indepth course that involves the study of the human anatomy and how you can manipulte it. I myself enjoy a good discussion about how others apply their locks and which locks they like etc.

ginosifu

Stop typing and just take your life now. Dislocations are BAD news. A hyper extension is not necessarily a dislocation. The bone has to move out of place.

[sanjuro_ronin]

This thread is dumb. You either know how to do joint locks, and as a by product of know them, you know how to teach them.

Sanjuro, a dislocation is no biggie??? A dislocation is a biggie. Bone chips, ligaments stretch and tear. In other words you get fuked up. How could you make a statement like that. I do not know hOw it is in Canada but here in the USA you will get sued. If I am a cop...and you dislocate my right elbow or shoulder(my shooting arm) is it still a no biggie?? In a controlled environment these things should never happen. Sparring is different.


Pretty much depends on which end of the dislocation you're on. This would be bad, once you dislocate a joint it just makes it that much easier to dislocate again. I would highly avoid this.

Bunch of pussies !
:p

I've had fingers dislocated, shoulder, and elbow.
Sure it freaking hurts and can cause serious damage if not treated.
So what? This is MA not dancing, you wimps.
:D

[Scott R. Brown]

Bunch of pussies !
:p

I've had fingers dislocated, shoulder, and elbow.
Sure it freaking hurts and can cause serious damage if not treated.
So what? This is MA not dancing, you wimps.
:D

You mean, "THIS IS A DOJO, NOT A KNITTING CLASS!!" Cobra Kai

[Hebrew Hammer]

Bunch of pussies !
:p

I've had fingers dislocated, shoulder, and elbow.
Sure it freaking hurts and can cause serious damage if not treated.
So what? This is MA not dancing, you wimps.
:D

I challenge you to a dance off!!! We'll see who's a bigger pussie!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47gahDuOff8

There's realistic training, then there's masochism.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I challenge you to a dance off!!! We'll see who's a bigger pussie!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47gahDuOff8

There's realistic training, then there's masochism.

LMAO !
Ok, on serious note.
Of course you do try to avoid a full dislocation ( any dislocation really) but they do happen and as such, you deal with them and go one ( that is the no biggie).
We are not talking broken bones protruding out of skin and blood gushing everywhere !
I've seen guys get dislocated shoulders from bad landings more often than I care to remember and dislocated fingers and wrists? far too common in the grappling game ( on par with broken noses and cuts in boxing).
In the end it IS a contact sport kids.

[TenTigers]

ok-we've exhausted this subject, so let's move on.
QUESTION: how many of you have learned locks from a handshake?

why?

(besides the obvious-he owes you moneys...
or he's being a jerk and squeezing your hand, and you want a less violent method, rather than striking..)

[sanjuro_ronin]

ok-we've exhausted this subject, so let's move on.
QUESTION: how many of you have learned locks from a handshake?

why?

(besides the obvious-he owes you moneys...
or he's being a jerk and squeezing your hand, and you want a less violent method, rather than striking..)

Pretty much the "first thing" you learn in jujutsu ( japanese) and Aikido in terms of standing wrist locks.

[Scott R. Brown]

ok-we've exhausted this subject, so let's move on.
QUESTION: how many of you have learned locks from a handshake?

why?

(besides the obvious-he owes you moneys...
or he's being a jerk and squeezing your hand, and you want a less violent method, rather than striking..)


Pretty much the "first thing" you learn in jujutsu ( japanese) and Aikido in terms of standing wrist locks.

Yes!

step

[ginosifu]

ok-we've exhausted this subject, so let's move on.
QUESTION: how many of you have learned locks from a handshake?

why?

(besides the obvious-he owes you moneys...
or he's being a jerk and squeezing your hand, and you want a less violent method, rather than striking..)

I have learned several but feel they are not quite the correct measure to take. Here's why:

Normally you shake hands in a friendly environment where you have just met someone or a friend has introduced you etc etc. Usually these environments are not volatile or unfriendly so why do we need to even lock someone in a friendly atmosphere? If he has shaken your hand too tight, talked bad about your old lady or said yo momma wears army boots etc etc.... there is still no threat to your life.

There is no real need to lock anyone unless there is a threat to your life. If there was a real threat, there would not be any hand shaking... That's just my opinion

ginosifu

[bawang]

Stop typing and just take your life now. Dislocations are BAD news. A hyper extension is not necessarily a dislocation. The bone has to move out of place.

you are a BIG POOSY

im not scares dislocation. IM NOT EVEN SCARES DEATH

[Scott R. Brown]

you are a BIG POOSY

im not scares dislocation. IM NOT EVEN SCARES DEATH

How do you feel about anal prolapse?

[Lucas]

of course dislocations are bad, but they happen if you train a grappling art. if you have ever trained any form of grappling over an extended period of time, you would know this, and more than likely would have experienced at least 1 dislocation to your own body. thats the way it works, always has and always will.

like sanjuro ronin mentioned, a dislocation in a grappling art is akin to broken noses, black eyes and cuts in a striking art. its the risk and eventuality you take in training to fight. fight training is not easy and it is not free of injury. ask anyone who has trained for a decade or so and have them list all of their training related injuries. if its contact and resistant, there will be a list.

[ginosifu]

ok-we've exhausted this subject, so let's move on.
QUESTION: how many of you have learned locks from a handshake?

why?

(besides the obvious-he owes you moneys...
or he's being a jerk and squeezing your hand, and you want a less violent method, rather than striking..)

Wing Lam Sifu told me this:

In ancient China, people were leary about touching (hand shakes and othe touching gestures), because of the fear of of unscrupulous men who might put you into a joint or other type of attack at that close range.

So, the bow or salute was implemented to keep folks you don't know at a distance but still showing respect. The hand shake is quite an easy position to grapple someone.

ginosifu

[goju]

plus you dont know where someone was scratching and pickin before hand

so you got to watch out for that too

or someone who will joint lock you with their smelly butt hands

[Hebrew Hammer]

of course dislocations are bad, but they happen if you train a grappling art. if you have ever trained any form of grappling over an extended period of time, you would know this, and more than likely would have experienced at least 1 dislocation to your own body. thats the way it works, always has and always will.

like sanjuro ronin mentioned, a dislocation in a grappling art is akin to broken noses, black eyes and cuts in a striking art. its the risk and eventuality you take in training to fight. fight training is not easy and it is not free of injury. ask anyone who has trained for a decade or so and have them list all of their training related injuries. if its contact and resistant, there will be a list.

Sanjuro's original post came across, like you should be getting dislocated as part of your training...kind of a tough man thing...but later clarified it as an accidental part of training, it may happen or does happen but shouldn't. It shows lack of control, improper training, and or too much technique. The forces required to dislocate a joint like knee, elbow, and shoulder are far greater than the ones that will cause a broken nose, breaking the skin, or few blood vessels.

Have you seen Master Killer's neck xrays? He's damaged for life from years of cranking his neck doing grappling...could he have still trained hard, sunk in the locks or cranks with out applying as much force and still got the point? I'm willing to bet he and his training partners could have, maybe he didn't think it would at the time but attacking these major supportive joints to the point of dislocations, is foolish in my opinion, the long term ill effects on your body have yet to be realized. Wait till your cartilage starts to deteriorate with age...joint replacement surgeries, chronic pain, loss of range of motion etc. What exactly are gaining by this?

I've done Judo and wrestling, albeit in my teenage years and dislocations were not common and we trained hard.

I could easily see finger dislocations occurring during Judo waza, it getting caught in a gi while performing a throw...your body going one way and your opponents another.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sanjuro's original post came across, like you should be getting dislocated as part of your training...kind of a tough man thing...but later clarified it as an accidental part of training, it may happen or does happen but shouldn't. It shows lack of control, improper training, and or too much technique. The forces required to dislocate a joint like knee, elbow, and shoulder are far greater than the ones that will cause a broken nose, breaking the skin, or few blood vessels.

Have you seen Master Killer's neck xrays? He's damaged for life from years of cranking his neck doing grappling...could he have still trained hard, sunk in the locks or cranks with out applying as much force and still got the point? I'm willing to bet he and his training partners could have, maybe he didn't think it would at the time but attacking these major supportive joints to the point of dislocations, is foolish in my opinion, the long term ill effects on your body have yet to be realized. Wait till your cartilage starts to deteriorate with age...joint replacement surgeries, chronic pain, loss of range of motion etc. What exactly are gaining by this?

I've done Judo and wrestling, albeit in my teenage years and dislocations were not common and we trained hard.

I could easily see finger dislocations occurring during Judo waza, it getting caught in a gi while performing a throw...your body going one way and your opponents another.

Yeah, I didn't really think that anyone would read it that way, my bad.

[RWilson]

Yeah, I didn't really think that anyone would read it that way, my bad.

Sorry for jumping down your throat.

Dislocations are not like bruises and broken noses in boxing. Dislocations are like hitting someone hard enough to cause whiplash, break shins, broken collar bones, boxers fracture, etc. Dislocations are bad news.

[YouKnowWho]

Dislocations are bad news.

My wife had a dislocation on her shoulder in one of her ground game because she refused to tap out. She went to ER for that. Today she can still do weight press "forward", but she can't do weight press "upward". Some injury will carry forward for the rest of our life.

[bawang]

How do you feel about anal prolapse?

i rub dit da jow on it

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sorry for jumping down your throat.

Dislocations are not like bruises and broken noses in boxing. Dislocations are like hitting someone hard enough to cause whiplash, break shins, broken collar bones, boxers fracture, etc. Dislocations are bad news.

No worries and to be honest, when I posted that I was thinking along the lines of finger dislocations, wrist sprains, elbow "pops", you know, the common crap.
Complete dislocations suck BUT they are manageable and they are not fight stoppers always.

[taai gihk yahn]

i rub dit da jow on it

it's true! every time I've had a problem with that, he rushes right over w a bottle of jow to take care of it...

[Scott R. Brown]

i rub dit da jow on it


it's true! every time I've had a problem with that, he rushes right over w a bottle of jow to take care of it...

And you never wondered how dit jow all over your buttocks and rectum helps your joint dislocations? :eek:

[Subitai]

I have the feeling that I have been way too kind to my students when it comes to them feeling certain techniques, strikes included. Way kinder than my teachers were to me, and I'm still here.


Did you ever stop to think that mabe your just a Martial arts Nut and that mabe you're a just a oddball or perhaps a dying breed? :)



ok-we've exhausted this subject, so let's move on.
QUESTION: how many of you have learned locks from a handshake?

why?

(besides the obvious-he owes you moneys...
or he's being a jerk and squeezing your hand, and you want a less violent method, rather than striking..)


BTW, The end of your last quote almost sounds as a rhetorical question, or are you really asking about handshakes?