Kicks in WCK

[imperialtaichi]

Hi, since not many threads on Kicking in WC, a very important part, I guess I may put up something VERY BRIEF to kick-start some discussions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBaQ7lNf24Y&feature=youtu.be

Cheers

[Vajramusti]

There are lots of kicks in IM wing chun. Many kicks in dummy work and footwork helps with the kicks.
But hands are more frequently used. Have to be careful, on not being taken down when "you" lift your leg.

[nasmedicine]

Hi, since not many threads on Kicking in WC, a very important part, I guess I may put up something VERY BRIEF to kick-start some discussions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBaQ7lNf24Y&feature=youtu.be

Cheers

Nice clip. In my current system most of our kicks are based on stomping like motions with only some exceptions.

[imperialtaichi]

There are lots of kicks in IM wing chun. Many kicks in dummy work and footwork helps with the kicks.
But hands are more frequently used. Have to be careful, on not being taken down when "you" lift your leg.

Yes, as such high kicks are opportunistic; either the opponent gives you the opportunity, or you create your opportunities (for example, by kicking low first).

I generally don't like kicking higher than hips. After connecting your leg to the opponent's elbows one learns very fast. ;)

[imperialtaichi]

Nice clip. In my current system most of our kicks are based on stomping like motions with only some exceptions.

Thanks. The stomp is the mother of kicks.

[YouKnowWho]

Thanks. The stomp is the mother of kicks.

If you train for "stomp" kick, you should shift more weight onto your leading leg when you kick. You should have serious "intensity" as if you want to stomp a hole through the earth.

[nasmedicine]

If you train for "stomp" kick, you should shift more weight onto your leading leg when you kick. You should have serious "intensity" as if you want to stomp a hole through the earth.

I see your point. In what I'm currently training the emphasis is more on the back (i.e. the non kicking leg) and tend not to put to much weight on the kicking leg, unless we have an absolute clear and stable target. But honestly I don't ever really kick much since the hands take care of a lot and if I do kick I revert back to my MT training.

[YouKnowWho]

The stomp kick is very safe to use. It puts your opponent into defensive mode. In order to do so, you have to scare the sh!t out of your opponent when you stomp on his leg.

A stomp kick is a good strategy to enter into your opponent's kicking range. That's why the weight shifting is important.

[Paddington]

Would most of you include trips, sweeps etc. as a part of the kicking curriculum? What about stepping through someones center? I ask as, in my experience at least, this seems to catch out a lot senior and experienced practitioners, in a chi sau context.

Just another quick Q regarding kicks and chum kui as practiced by those that studied under Ip Chun. How many of you use the lan sau position as a marker for whether one is raising the shoulders and telegraphing the dung toi in the second section?

[imperialtaichi]

Initial kicks I favour speed over power (not saying I don't want power). I want stealth. Once the opponent's momentum is broken we have plenty of time for finishing kicks.

[Happy Tiger]

Thanks. The stomp is the mother of kicks.
Thanks for the clip, very cool. I love kicking being a long legged beastie. Jeet is the word for me when it comes to kicks.

[Happy Tiger]

I have a couple o questions for the gang. What do u feel is the limit in # (if any) to kicking in combination in real combat, one opponent. Also, opinions on kicking while moving backwards. Thanx.

[wingchunIan]

Would most of you include trips, sweeps etc. as a part of the kicking curriculum? What about stepping through someones center? I ask as, in my experience at least, this seems to catch out a lot senior and experienced practitioners, in a chi sau context.

Just another quick Q regarding kicks and chum kui as practiced by those that studied under Ip Chun. How many of you use the lan sau position as a marker for whether one is raising the shoulders and telegraphing the dung toi in the second section?

Hi mate, not something I focus on too much but yes the lan sau can help as a guide as to whether the upper body is moving or not when kicking in the form.

[nasmedicine]

The stomp kick is very safe to use. It puts your opponent into defensive mode. In order to do so, you have to scare the sh!t out of your opponent when you stomp on his leg.

A stomp kick is a good strategy to enter into your opponent's kicking range. That's why the weight shifting is important.

I understand but wouldn't you be afraid that if you missed all your weight would be on the kicking leg. Unless of course missing the target is a non issue. I only say this because that has happened to me while sparring and leaves me wide open for numerous counters especially to the leg with all the weight I just fed into it. But if you have the element of suprise and the opponent is coming right at you then I would most likely do it the way you mentioned.

[nasmedicine]

Initial kicks I favour speed over power (not saying I don't want power). I want stealth. Once the opponent's momentum is broken we have plenty of time for finishing kicks.

I agree speed and suprise are key for kicks, especially surprise IMO.

[LoneTiger108]

I (apparently!) come from a lineage that has a Kicking Form and I have had the pleasure of seeing this performed by various practitioners. Then they seem surprised when I say that I do not practise this form!

All my initial leg and footwork was done on the wooden man, and so Johns clip is quite a good insight for me. It has a very familiar look but totally different language! This is where I learnt a specific 'set' that encompassed all leg and foot variations and combinations, so an empty 'air form' was never really something I looked at.

Of course, the combination of hands and legs is what we as practitioners should be striving for and I have to admit, I rarely see excellent examples of this unless the student themselves had learnt kicking from another system. But for me the Wing Chun legwork stands alone and is an awesome addition to anyones repertoire.

[Happy Tiger]

I agree speed and suprise are key for kicks, especially surprise IMO.
Speed??. Speed is the last thing u should depend on f
or kicking

[nasmedicine]

Speed??. Speed is the last thing u should depend on f
or kicking
I never said I depend on it but speed in a kick is always important especially since kicks on much slower than punches. IMO, A nice speedy and equally sneaky low kick goes a long way.

p.s. I am not referring to physical speed (though that would be great to have)
http://members.tripod.com/~Wing_Chun/hpageie.html "WHAT YIP MAN TAUGHT ME ABOUT SPEED"

[Vajramusti]

In Augusting Fong's teachings:

Leg Development

Jing Dok Lop ma (front single leg)
Wang Dok Lop ma (side single leg)
Jing/Wang Dang Gurk (slow nailing front and side kick)
Jing/Wang Tai Gurk (slow front and side raising kick)
Gaan Gurk (5 Leg Blocks) Soo, Bong, Gaan, Pak Sut, Wu Sut
Yin/Yang Rotation of Kicking (Front Kick up/ Down, Side Kick up/Down)
Jing Gurk Jut Gurk
Pak Gurk in Air
Wu Gurk in Air
Bong Gurk Chai Gurk
Huen Jing Gurk
Huen Wang Gurk
Tiu Chai Gurk
Tiu Dang Gurk

[nasmedicine]

I (apparently!) come from a lineage that has a Kicking Form and I have had the pleasure of seeing this performed by various practitioners. Then they seem surprised when I say that I do not practise this form!

All my initial leg and footwork was done on the wooden man, and so Johns clip is quite a good insight for me. It has a very familiar look but totally different language! This is where I learnt a specific 'set' that encompassed all leg and foot variations and combinations, so an empty 'air form' was never really something I looked at.

Of course, the combination of hands and legs is what we as practitioners should be striving for and I have to admit, I rarely see excellent examples of this unless the student themselves had learnt kicking from another system. But for me the Wing Chun legwork stands alone and is an awesome addition to anyones repertoire.

would you happen to know if there are any links on youtube or anywere else that show some of the applications or the actual kicking form itself. I would love to see them especially because I I don't know too much in regards to how your lineage feels about handling certain things.

[LoneTiger108]

A video clip would be cool Joy :) but it looks like we have very similar methods with the legs and feet

[LoneTiger108]

would you happen to know if there are any links on youtube or anywere else that show some of the applications or the actual kicking form itself. I would love to see them especially because I I don't know too much in regards to how your lineage feels about handling certain things.

I know it's nt helpful but no, I haven't seen too many clips from our lineage out there other than the form itself (which is more changeable than the sea lol!)

I did take some wicked footage over in Germany as this was something shared at a seminar I was involved with. The guys were all about learning how and when to use specific methods because, like the hands, if you experiment for the sake of it you can go the totally wrong way with the knowledge. They knew what they were doing and how to acheive maxmium effect with minimal movement, all paired with the hands too so it just made sense to me.

I can't share the footage though. Promises are promises...

[LoneTiger108]

Here's a good rendition of my uncle Sifu Austin Gohs kicking form

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rOAbqbA3wk

The London Wing Chun Acadey has some good legwork in their promotional clip too. Not our lineage, but very close to us as they're linked to Sifu Simon Lau

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fisJ-Pg0wA&feature=g-vrec

[nasmedicine]

Here's a good rendition of my uncle Sifu Austin Gohs kicking form

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rOAbqbA3wk

oh I forgot that you guys are connected to austin goh if that's the case then I'm fully aware of his way of doing things. I know this is kind of off topic but what do you think about his human energy stuff? PM me if you like?

[Vajramusti]

A video clip would be cool Joy :) but it looks like we have very similar methods with the legs and feet

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
See Brian Tufts doing the Augustine Fong dummy form...watch the kicks and the close quarters footwork.

[Happy Tiger]

[QUOTE=Happy Tiger;1177869]I have a couple o questions for the gang. What do u feel is the limit in # (if any) to kicking in combination in real combat, one opponent. Also, opinions on kicking while moving backwards. Thanx.[/QUOTEno opinions?

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Happy Tiger;1177869]I have a couple o questions for the gang. What do u feel is the limit in # (if any) to kicking in combination in real combat, one opponent. Also, opinions on kicking while moving backwards. Thanx.[/QUOTEno opinions?
-----------------------------------------------------------

0, 1 or 2.

[YouKnowWho]

Would most of you include trips, sweeps etc. as a part of the kicking curriculum?

Now you have just moved from the striking into the throwing. In order to make the sweep work, there are others skills that are needed.


Initial kicks I favour speed over power ...
Agree! 80% of the time that kick will miss anyway. It's better to use it just as to build "leg bridge".

[imperialtaichi]

Here's a good rendition of my uncle Sifu Austin Gohs kicking form

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rOAbqbA3wk

Very Cool.

[imperialtaichi]

I have a couple o questions for the gang. What do u feel is the limit in # (if any) to kicking in combination in real combat, one opponent. Also, opinions on kicking while moving backwards. Thanx.

I usually either not kick, or if I do I usually do 2. Rarely 3.

My first kick is usually for coverage, set up etc; hence it is always followed by something else, such as another kick, a punch, an elbow strike etc. Anyway, the mentality is to go ballistic at the opponent and continuously attacking him until he is down, before he could even breathe. Then hit him a bit more just in case ;)

Rarely 3, because it takes too long. A real fight engagement is a very unstable equilibrium.

I hate going backwards. If a large force is charging at me I prefer to do it like a Matador. Fool the bull, move out of harm's way and stab the bull in the back.

[imperialtaichi]

In Augusting Fong's teachings:

Leg Development

Jing Dok Lop ma (front single leg)
Wang Dok Lop ma (side single leg)
Jing/Wang Dang Gurk (slow nailing front and side kick)
Jing/Wang Tai Gurk (slow front and side raising kick)
Gaan Gurk (5 Leg Blocks) Soo, Bong, Gaan, Pak Sut, Wu Sut
Yin/Yang Rotation of Kicking (Front Kick up/ Down, Side Kick up/Down)
Jing Gurk Jut Gurk
Pak Gurk in Air
Wu Gurk in Air
Bong Gurk Chai Gurk
Huen Jing Gurk
Huen Wang Gurk
Tiu Chai Gurk
Tiu Dang Gurk

Years ago, when I use to learn from Sifu Derek Fung (student of Ip Man), we use to train what he called "Wing Chun 8 Kicks". For the life of me I cannot recall all the eight kicks.

Yes, VM, it would be nice to see the kicks you mentioned in action.

[GlennR]

Years ago, when I use to learn from Sifu Derek Fung (student of Ip Man), we use to train what he called "Wing Chun 8 Kicks". For the life of me I cannot recall all the eight kicks.

Yes, VM, it would be nice to see the kicks you mentioned in action.

Hey John
What was Derek like? I believe he is still teaching?

[Happy Tiger]

I usually either not kick, or if I do I usually do 2. Rarely 3.

My first kick is usually for coverage, set up etc; hence it is always followed by something else, such as another kick, a punch, an elbow strike etc. Anyway, the mentality is to go ballistic at the opponent and continuously attacking him until he is down, before he could even breathe. Then hit him a bit more just in case ;)

Rarely 3, because it takes too long. A real fight engagement is a very unstable equilibrium.

I hate going backwards. If a large force is charging at me I prefer to do it like a Matador. Fool the bull, move out of harm's way and stab the bull in the back.
Thanks! I like your approach

[Happy Tiger]

[QUOTE=Happy Tiger;1177891]
-----------------------------------------------------------

0, 1 or 2.
Simple and true :)

[YouKnowWho]

wouldn't you be afraid that if you missed all your weight would be on the kicking leg.

You can borrow the counter force from the ground to pull your stomp kick back. If you can stomp, pull back, and stomp within 1 second, you will have developed very good "chain stomps".

[nasmedicine]

You can borrow the counter force from the ground to pull your sto. mp kick back. If you can stomp, pull back, and stomp within 1 second, you will have developed very good "chain stomps".

I see. I will try it out on the dummy.

[imperialtaichi]

Hey John
What was Derek like? I believe he is still teaching?

He is very skilled, and a totally nice guy. He ended up getting on very well with TST so you can see a bit of TST in him. I must say, this is from way back, so much could have been changed.

He is still teaching, I think Burwood (???). Best to google him.

[Matt_WCK]

As an insight into Sam Kwok's IM WCK - he says that there are 8 kicks in Wing Chun (and Dung Toi is not one of them...). They are (as per the dummy form):

Jic Gerk
Wan Gerk
Chut Sun Jic Gerk
Wan Tan Gerk

Any other kicks are variations or combinations of the above.

Each is performed twice, once each side, making up the 8 kicks. He counts leg techniques such as Pak Gerk and Huen Gerk and even the Biu Ma motion as leg techniques to disrupt the opponent's centre as opposed to a 'kick'.

Having commented on Dung Toi - Sam Kwok states that this was never a WCK kick and came from a mistelling of an IM story where he stopped an attacker with a foot to the belly and the assumption that, because IM performed the kick, that kick must be WCK. Can't vouch for the truth of that though.

Personally, I still use the Dung Toi kick within my CK form as it was taught to me because I see a use in it. Still on a personal level, I count Pak Gerk as a kick and Huen Gerk as a sweep but, like the hand techniques, the exact classification is irrelevant - it's the use that counts.

If you boil them down, there are only two kicks (front and side) which can be performed in a variety of ways from different legs in different positions or at different levels.

[LoneTiger108]

oh I forgot that you guys are connected to austin goh if that's the case then I'm fully aware of his way of doing things. I know this is kind of off topic but what do you think about his human energy stuff? PM me if you like?

Okay it's cool that you are 'fully aware' of uncles teachings, although I have no ideas really what that means lol!

As for his human energy stuffs, his eldest student, Juerg Ziegler has just released a book on the matter but I can not really discuss as I know nothing of his practises, only what I see and read.

My Sigung had a wide ranging curriculum of Wing Chun, which included Heigung sets and understanding linked to his TCM practise (he was a qualified herbalist and TCM practitioner) but I wouldn't say this is the same as uncle Gohs methods as he has grown over the years through his own self study and other learning.


Years ago, when I use to learn from Sifu Derek Fung (student of Ip Man), we use to train what he called "Wing Chun 8 Kicks". For the life of me I cannot recall all the eight kicks.

I think it is well to remember that the 'eight kicks' of Wing Chun are in a sense connected to the 'eight chopping blades', therefore connected to pairing the hands with the legs.

Many people use loose terms for the 'techniques', but there are specifically 'eight methods' of leg practise I am aware of, it's just I can not share the details here.

there are many technical names for these leg methods, more than eight actually, but without the basic eight it's simply all guess work IMHO...

[LoneTiger108]

Jic Gerk
Wan Gerk
Chut Sun Jic Gerk
Wan Tan Gerk

Any other kicks are variations or combinations of the above.

Interesting but very misleading IMHO.

Basically you are saying there are 2 'kicks' that are Wan and Jic(Jeet), which I presume are the methods of revolving and straight which in turn are called (technically) Huen and Pak.

This is good solid information, but this is not the specific legwork I am talking of but more a breakdown of basic concepts for legwork motions... which I think is more connected to the original clip posted by John than what I am talking about too?

[wingchunIan]

Interesting but very misleading IMHO.

Basically you are saying there are 2 'kicks' that are Wan and Jic(Jeet), which I presume are the methods of revolving and straight which in turn are called (technically) Huen and Pak.

This is good solid information, but this is not the specific legwork I am talking of but more a breakdown of basic concepts for legwork motions... which I think is more connected to the original clip posted by John than what I am talking about too?

Hi Spencer,
I suspect that this is going to be another of those threads that descends into a debate about chinese terminology and the "correct" use of cantonese / mandarin.
When it does I'll bow out (as I have no interest), but FWIW I'm with Matt (not surprising given the closeness of the lineages) I'm familiar with huen ma, biu ma etc but wouldn't class them as kicks. I have no idea what a dung toi is. Bong gerk and tan gerk for me are simply descriptions of the action that the kick can perform if it intercepts en route. The only true kicks that I have been taught over the years are jic gerk (front thrusting kick), tek gerk (lifting kick), chut sun gerk (cross stamp kick), wang gerk(side kick) and pak gerk (stopping kick), its a limited aresenal but more than sufficient.

[LoneTiger108]

Hi Spencer,
I suspect that this is going to be another of those threads that descends into a debate about chinese terminology and the "correct" use of cantonese / mandarin.
When it does I'll bow out (as I have no interest)

I will try my best not to go there lol!! I can't anywayz in so much detail so let's look at the basics more closely...


Bong gerk and tan gerk for me are simply descriptions of the action that the kick can perform if it intercepts en route. The only true kicks that I have been taught over the years are jic gerk (front thrusting kick), tek gerk (lifting kick), wang gerk(side kick) and pak gerk (stopping kick), its a limited aresenal but more than sufficient.

Now these are exactly what I was talking about with regards to technical names for the kicks in action, and if you double them up on both sides you have 8 'kicks'. But where I have a little issue is when the 'seed terms' are used (Bong, Tan) and here is why:

The seeds are crucial in understanding flow and intent of a movement, both in the hands and feet for sure, but they are not the actual term for the action itself (more the method of movement) whereas Pak, Tek, Wang and Jik are the technical terms for the actions. This is easier to understand (IMHO) if you can distinguish between a Bong Jik Gerk and a Tan Jik gert... if this makes sense?

Taking this into consideration your 4 methods can be done with 2 seed intentions, therefore creating 8 possibilitie with each leg, resulting in 16 kicking methods. Now THIS is more what I am talking about actually and if you look into older, more traditional terms for legwork you will see things like Johns 'Pheasant Kick' etc which are all connected IMHO.

Not too complicated, nor lingual, but something that helps explore the sheer amount of stuff that was scaled down and refined by Ip Man in his later teachings. Just my interpretation but one that many before me have seen too.

[Matt_WCK]

Hi Spencer,
I suspect that this is going to be another of those threads that descends into a debate about chinese terminology and the "correct" use of cantonese / mandarin.
When it does I'll bow out (as I have no interest), but FWIW I'm with Matt (not surprising given the closeness of the lineages) I'm familiar with huen ma, biu ma etc but wouldn't class them as kicks. I have no idea what a dung toi is. Bong gerk and tan gerk for me are simply descriptions of the action that the kick can perform if it intercepts en route. The only true kicks that I have been taught over the years are jic gerk (front thrusting kick), tek gerk (lifting kick), chut sun gerk (cross stamp kick), wang gerk(side kick) and pak gerk (stopping kick), its a limited aresenal but more than sufficient.

I've heard tek gerk used to describe dung toi (lifting/ascending leg) so I believe that they are the same thing. I think different lines simply use slightly different terminology.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1177933]



I think it is well to remember that the 'eight kicks' of Wing Chun are in a sense connected to the 'eight chopping blades', therefore connected to pairing the hands with the legs.
================================================== =================
Muddled. I don't think so.. Perhaps in your system.

[LoneTiger108]

Muddled. I don't think so.. Perhaps in your system.

No Joy. I am far from muddled. We simply have quite a varied way of interpreting what Ip Man accomplished, that's all.

[nasmedicine]

Okay it's cool that you are 'fully aware' of uncles teachings, although I have no ideas really what that means lol!

As for his human energy stuffs, his eldest student, Juerg Ziegler has just released a book on the matter but I can not really discuss as I know nothing of his practises, only what I see and read.

My Sigung had a wide ranging curriculum of Wing Chun, which included Heigung sets and understanding linked to his TCM practise (he was a qualified herbalist and TCM practitioner) but I wouldn't say this is the same as uncle Gohs methods as he has grown over the years through his own self study and other learning.

When I say I'm fully aware I mean just that, nothing bad if that is what you're thinking. I have met with him on several occasions and spoke with him in detail about his curriculum and wc in general. My sifu has also helped him with hosting one of hid human energy seminars in NJ. Austin is a class act and very passionate about his work.

[LoneTiger108]

When I say I'm fully aware I mean just that, nothing bad if that is what you're thinking.

Well I never know when it comes to this forum who is taking the pi$$ and who is genuine lol! But thanks for the reply and interest.


I have met with him on several occasions and spoke with him in detail about his curriculum and wc in general. My sifu has also helped him with hosting one of hid human energy seminars in NJ. Austin is a class act and very passionate about his work.

That he is. He is one of the eldest practitioners of Wing Chun still teaching in the UK and I tilt my hat to him.

BUT I am not his student, and my Sifu did not teach the same methods or curriculum as he does so this is why I restrain from commenting too much on what he does, especially regarding his energy stuff. No bad feelings either because I have worked with him on a few events and even took a seminar alongside him once at his request! :)

[Vajramusti]

No Joy. I am far from muddled. We simply have quite a varied way of interpreting what Ip Man accomplished, that's all.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Obviously Spencer. Why not describe what you see is the relationship between kicks and bat jam do
involving 8 is?

[nasmedicine]

Well I never know when it comes to this forum who is taking the pi$$ and who is genuine lol! But thanks for the reply and interest.


I understand.


That he is. He is one of the eldest practitioners of Wing Chun still teaching in the UK and I tilt my hat to him.

BUT I am not his student, and my Sifu did not teach the same methods or curriculum as he does so this is why I restrain from commenting too much on what he does, especially regarding his energy stuff. No bad feelings either because I have worked with him on a few events and even took a seminar alongside him once at his request! :)

Fair enough.

[LoneTiger108]

Obviously Spencer. Why not describe what you see is the relationship between kicks and bat jam do involving 8 is?

Now that would be telling...

Why don't you tell me why they are NOT connected? :D ;)

Or... answer me this (please!)

Have you heard of the 'Four Set Methods' of Wing Chun?

[Paddington]

I have no idea what a dung toi is .

It is very similar to the front kick. Instead of using the quads to help provide the 'snap' to the kick, dung toi just relies on raising the leg, again with the foot turned slightly out and a bend at the knee. Basically, it is just a lifting or raising kick that works a bit like the pike or spear driven into the ground against a charging horse.

[Vajramusti]

Now that would be telling...

Why don't you tell me why they are NOT connected? :D ;)

Or... answer me this (please!)

Have you heard of the 'Four Set Methods' of Wing Chun?
------------------------------------------------------------------
If you don't want to explain or elaborate on your statement-ok by me-

[wingchunIan]

It is very similar to the front kick. Instead of using the quads to help provide the 'snap' to the kick, dung toi just relies on raising the leg, again with the foot turned slightly out and a bend at the knee. Basically, it is just a lifting or raising kick that works a bit like the pike or spear driven into the ground against a charging horse.
Cool, what we refer to as Tek gerk.

[Paddington]

I could be mistaken though Ian.

[Lee Chiang Po]

I only ever had 5 kicks, either side. One being a side kick and one being a kick to the rear. All are heel kicks, and are used at specific targets. I never miss either because I only kick when I know I won't miss. I can kick you into next week too, and it is fast. But then I practiced these kicks a great deal as a younger man, especially when I was learning them. Kicking is something best left alone unless you know what you are doing. It can get you taken down. I never kick higher than my own hip bone. Most men are taller than I am, so I don't kick that high on them. Knee, back of knee for a take down, groin, not the testicles, but the groin. The line from pelvic bridge to the hip bone. Lots of vains and nerves. And of course the pelvic bridge itself. A solid kick to the hip or pelvic bridge can break it in half. The Pelvic cage is held together in the center by cartlege, and a solid kick can crack it like an egg.
A kick can be used to draw his defense down so that you can get in on him with the hands, and it really comes in handy for when you are dealing with multiple antagonists. If they can't get close to you they can't hit you. And it might even entice them to kick back, which in most cases is your best opertunity to take him down. Your feet are your most powerful weapons, and you should learn how to use them without compromising youself.

[imperialtaichi]

True, one has to be careful of take downs, but higher than waist kicks does have its place. As mentioned before, it is opportunistic.

[wingchunIan]

I only ever had 5 kicks, either side. One being a side kick and one being a kick to the rear. All are heel kicks, and are used at specific targets. I never miss either because I only kick when I know I won't miss. I can kick you into next week too, and it is fast. But then I practiced these kicks a great deal as a younger man, especially when I was learning them. Kicking is something best left alone unless you know what you are doing. It can get you taken down. I never kick higher than my own hip bone. Most men are taller than I am, so I don't kick that high on them. Knee, back of knee for a take down, groin, not the testicles, but the groin. The line from pelvic bridge to the hip bone. Lots of vains and nerves. And of course the pelvic bridge itself. A solid kick to the hip or pelvic bridge can break it in half. The Pelvic cage is held together in the center by cartlege, and a solid kick can crack it like an egg.
A kick can be used to draw his defense down so that you can get in on him with the hands, and it really comes in handy for when you are dealing with multiple antagonists. If they can't get close to you they can't hit you. And it might even entice them to kick back, which in most cases is your best opertunity to take him down. Your feet are your most powerful weapons, and you should learn how to use them without compromising youself.
in all of my years watching TKD, full contact karate, kickboxing, Muay thai, MMA and working in bars and clubs, watching rugby etc I can safely say that the only pelvic breaks I've ever seen have been in rock climbing accidents and car accidents.

[guy b.]

Now that would be telling...

Why don't you tell me why they are NOT connected? :D ;)

Or... answer me this (please!)

Have you heard of the 'Four Set Methods' of Wing Chun?

exactly the sort of thing that makes chinese MA a laughing stock

[EternalSpring]

exactly the sort of thing that makes chinese MA a laughing stock

lol it most def is.

[Lee Chiang Po]

in all of my years watching TKD, full contact karate, kickboxing, Muay thai, MMA and working in bars and clubs, watching rugby etc I can safely say that the only pelvic breaks I've ever seen have been in rock climbing accidents and car accidents.

It is something that has to be targeted. In any of the full contact bouts you mentioned, you would be immediately disqualified if you tried that. And in most athletic sports you would not see that happen because there would be absolutely no reason to do it. Climbing and car accidents do account for a lot of these type of injury, but if you are aware of how a body's frame is put together you can target certain places where shock or impact can seperate certain parts of the structure. A mastery of Jiujitsu will give you all that.

[wingchunIan]

It is something that has to be targeted. In any of the full contact bouts you mentioned, you would be immediately disqualified if you tried that. Not at all the pelvic girdle is a legitimate target area in all of the arts quoted, only the groin is disallowed. In MT the teep and long knee are often aimed at the pelvic region but not in any wistful notion of breaking bones simply in an attempt to target the bladder region

And in most athletic sports you would not see that happen because there would be absolutely no reason to do it. But surely if it is so fragile there would be at least the odd accidental fracture.

Climbing and car accidents do account for a lot of these type of injury, but if you are aware of how a body's frame is put together you can target certain places where shock or impact can seperate certain parts of the structure. A mastery of Jiujitsu will give you all that yeah and a mastery of tai chi will allow me to hurl balls of chi energy across the room and knock people out without touching them. Lol
Targetting weak spots in the human anatomy is not solely the preserve of jiujitsu, it is common place across most martial arts (including Wing Chun). However those with a practical bias have tended to move away from targetting areas which require the ability to split a gnats c*ck with full power
Sorry if this post seems a little dismissive or sarcastic but this is one of my pet hates in martial arts. Ultimately to each his own, and where you choose to kick is obviously entirely your perogative. I prefer the achilles tendon, shin, knee, thigh, groin, spine etc as high percentage targets but its only personal choice

[imperialtaichi]

Not at all the pelvic girdle is a legitimate target area in all of the arts quoted, only the groin is disallowed. In MT the teep and long knee are often aimed at the pelvic region but not in any wistful notion of breaking bones simply in an attempt to target the bladder region.

While kicking to the balls is illegal, we see it accidentally happening all the time. Dispite the protective gear it is still painful to watch (ouch!).

Surely, even purely by accident, shouldn't we see pelvic bones broken more often in contact sports if it can be broken so easily?

Any orthopedic specialists here who can give us a definitive answer?

[imperialtaichi]

I prefer the achilles tendon, shin, knee, thigh, groin, spine etc as high percentage targets but its only personal choice

My general rule: I use my bigger bone to hit the opponent's smaller bone, my shorter bone against the opponent's longer bone. I also like to target the middle of long bones (sticks usually snaps in the middle, not at the ends).

[LoneTiger108]

exactly the sort of thing that makes chinese MA a laughing stock

This was a response to my light hearted banter with Joy so no wonder nobody in this place ever shares anything of value!

So guy b, can you answer me this:

Have you heard of the 'Four Set Methods' of Wing Chun?

Without understanding these double-handed postures of Wing Chun you will find the knife work not only difficult, but in some cases totally impossible. 4 hand sets on one side of the body, paired up makes 8. Then look at the BJD and if you can not see what I mean then you need more time. But wait!! Then let's disucss which kicking method relates to which hand methods and see how we get on :rolleyes:

This was my resoning for asking Joy to share what he knew about why kicking methods would NOT be linked to BJD. Truth be known, the kicking methods are just as important as the handwork (if not more so IMHO) and so it makes total sense that they would be included within knife and pole practises too. And this is where we find the actual core understanding of the mechanics of the hands and legs working together.

Is it so difficult? No.

Is this the sort of thing that makes CMA a laughing stock? Probably.

Because I see very very few people here putting anything worth any value at all to the discussion of kicking in Wing Chun (and I am talking 'visuals') and the moment I try to have a laugh or share more information you get a response like that.

Don't know why I expected anything different really.

[Paddington]

Truth be known, the kicking methods are just as important as the handwork (if not more so IMHO) [...] I see very very few people here putting anything worth any value at all to the discussion of kicking in Wing Chun (and I am talking 'visuals')

I have not been around these forums long enough to agree with this statement more fully. However, I do agree that, in my experience, generally people do not understand nor practice kicking enough.

As I said I include small trips and sweeps as a part of kicking and it has always surprised me how senior students become unstuck, as soon as you start to attack their base directly using one's feet and legs in chi sau.

For example, where I train a lot of emphasis is placed upon sarn bok ma (three point steeping) . From sarn bok ma the closing and opening of the foot after or before a step, works very well to disrupt someone's base when one's feet are in contact with the opponent's.

Incidentally sarn bok ma, like kicks, seems IMO to be under trained by many wing chun practitioners and here I can see the direct relevance of the knife form; a way to improve sarn bok ma and the coordination between hands and legs. However, I find it hard to find a high level import from the knife form to kicking more generally as you suggest.



Because I see very very few people here putting anything worth any value at all to the discussion of kicking in Wing Chun (and I am talking 'visuals')


OK, how about discussing the difference between the front more snappy kick and the lifting front kick? What are the advantages and disadvantages of these kicks? In which contexts should one be used over the other and why?

[LoneTiger108]

OK, how about discussing the difference between the front more snappy kick and the lifting front kick? What are the advantages and disadvantages of these kicks? In which contexts should one be used over the other and why?

I think this is also getting ahead of ourselves because I should have also mentioned that I kinda agree with Ian about there only being 4 commonly seen kicks in Wing Chun, 4 on each leg doubled up makes 8. And what you are talking about here is lifting 'legwork'. Many of the methods in the 108 are actually 'legwork' and not kicks. Many involve sweeping too, which are not 'kicks'. My kung fu uncle promote 16 kicking methods, suggesting that he has 8 on each side, but again some are kicks and some are legwork so I can see why people can get confused.

Please have a look at the kicking form clip I posted and tell me which one/ones you are familiar with. Then we can have a more productive discussion

Austin Goh Wing Chun 16 Method Kicking Form
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rOAbqbA3wk

[Paddington]

And what you are talking about here is lifting 'legwork'.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rOAbqbA3wk

Not to be confused here with a lifting kick, which is a kick as I meant it i.e. dung toi.

As far as where I train, it is the case that kicks are broken down to three distinct types of movements which, when used at different angles and distances, gives the appearance of there being many more 'types' of kicks.

I watched that video, thanks for sharing. It seems that the kicking form presented in that video is a recent invention? When I watched it the first bit reminded me, for a number of reasons, of the dummy form. A latter bit then reminded me of chum kui!

[wingchunIan]

OK, how about discussing the difference between the front more snappy kick and the lifting front kick? What are the advantages and disadvantages of these kicks? In which contexts should one be used over the other and why?

For me the difference between jic gerk and tek gerk is the direction and nature of the energy. In tek gerk the kick lifts aiming to impale an on rushing opponent, hit the groin, strike the face of an opponent bending over, scrape the shin etc In jic gerk the kick is lifted in the same way but upon contact there is a pulse or thrust through the heel driving forwards. FWIW I wouldn't refer to it as snapping as it is a use of on / off energy and more of a thrust than a snap.

[LoneTiger108]

Not to be confused here with a lifting kick, which is a kick as I meant it i.e. dung toi.

I'm not familiar with the 'sound' of dung, I have 'deng' which is more of a hanging action and our lifting legwork is called something else entirely.


I watched that video, thanks for sharing. It seems that the kicking form presented in that video is a recent invention? When I watched it the first bit reminded me, for a number of reasons, of the dummy form. A latter bit then reminded me of chum kui!

Like I've said, I am not a student of Sifu Goh so I can't comment too much on the origins of these forms but I know exactly what you are saying. Within his curriculum there are over 20 sub sets of stuff like the kicking form, which are drawn from his knowledge of the forms and how to use them to fight. So you may be 100% correct, but I can't say so for sure.

[Paddington]

If it helps you to understand my perspective and naming conventions, I train down the Ip Chun side of Ip Man wing chun.

[LoneTiger108]

If it helps you to understand my perspective and naming conventions, I train down the Ip Chun side of Ip Man wing chun.

OK but this should mean we should understand eachother??

Do you learn directly from Ip Chun in HK or from one of his representatives abroad?

Sifu Austin Goh also learnt from Ip Chun and still sees him these days too (I think as late as this year) so it's interesting to me that we are missing eachothers POV but fme that is not uncommon when it comes to the English spelling of Chinese words to be honest...